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Why Not Use DDVP Strips as a Primary Treatment Method for Bed Bugs?

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  1. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Aug 8 2015 7:37:32
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    This is a continuation of a discussion from previous posts, including this thread:
    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/best-method-for-empty-house but thought I should start a new thread so as not to get too off topic.

    Nobugsonme - 10 hours ago »
    jim danca said,

    Not really a good idea. At one time, there was a professor from Florida that was experimenting with a standard space heater, a large floor fan, and then hanging nuvan strips in front of the fan to 'blow the chemical.'

    NB: [b]Just a caution to others: I have heard of this but have heard other experts here (on email or phone outside the forums) suggest this sounds very unsafe

    With everyone duly warned DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND FOLLOWING LABEL I think it might be interesting to discuss this more at least in an academic sense.

    1) Jim -- You say, "Not a good idea". Why is not a good idea? Can you link us to the Florida experiment you are referencing?

    2) Here is a Florida study I came up with that may be different from the one that Jim is talking about. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21332764 The abstract suggests that complete mortality of bugs and eggs can occur in as little as 36 hours with the addition of heat and a fan, in an enclosed, unoccupied room.

    3) Here is a 2013 University of Florida Dissertation that also suggests the efficacy but seems to contradict the previous study in that it states a counter-intuitive argument (to me) that toxicity was negatively associated with temperature. In other words, the lower the temperature, the higher the toxicity.

    http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/04/51/47/00001/WISE_L.pdf

    4) So, temperature aside for a moment -- although an interesting topic and comments welcome --
    both studies seem to suggest the efficacy of DDVP strips for bed bugs in an enclosed, unoccupied room.

    4) Paul Bello also seems to suggest that DDVP strips can be an effective treatment for a room in a house as long as the room is unoccupied -- in this thread here unless I am reading him wrong.

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/debugging-large-couch-cushions-pest-strips-sofasafe-type-covers-help

    (Paul, please note that I had some questions at the end of the thread you may have overlooked)

    5) The big question I have for the pros, or anyone knowledgeable, is if DDVP strips seem so effective against bed bugs in an unoccupied room, then why is this method not used more universally to eradicate bed bugs at least from belongings, including large furniture?

    Following this train of thought, I would think dedicating a room as a DDVP treatment chamber would be far efficient and cost effective for mattresses, box springs, couches chairs and "stuff", then using steam, chemicals, smaller bagging or heat chamber units, most of which can only treat small items?

    Or, to take the idea one step further, what if DDVP strips were hung in the entire home for 36 hours while unoccupied and therefore used as the primary treatment process? I would think that in the case of smaller homes or apartments, many might choose the inconvenience of leaving for 36 hours over what is arguably the greater inconvenience and cost of more conventional treatments.
    ------------------
    So again, the aforementioned is just for discussion and education, and by no means a suggestion or recommendation that anyone go out try using DDVP in any other manner than is allowed by the label instructions.

    Richard

  2. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Aug 8 2015 11:42:31
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    I think it confuses matters greatly if you discuss the using DDVP + heater + fan to treat a home idea at the same time as you discuss using DDVP per label instructions to treat a home.

    The former is off-label and I've heard many pros speak with great concern about it. That was what I was commenting on to jim danca in the quote above.

    The latter is on-label and I'd defer to pros on whether it's the most effective idea or not. My point was that forum users should not be experimenting with off-label uses, particularly ones of products which-- if used incorrectly-- are potentially harmful.

    Your title suggests this thread is about "why not use DDVP strips as a method of treating a whole house" but I really think that's not the same question as "why not use DDVP off-label with a heater and fan to treat a whole house", and I think it's bound to cause confusion among some.

    In particular, my concern is for stressed out, tired people who come on the forums, don't read a whole lot or perhaps very critically, and make choices based on that.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  3. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Aug 8 2015 14:55:15
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    Hopefully we can have a useful discussion on this concept without recommending that people go out and do it. In fact an argument can be made that the more we discuss these kinds of things, the inns and the outs, the pros and the cons, the less likely someone is to do something stupid because of incomplete knowledge.

    And again, I believe Paul was recommending area treatment in the other thread of unoccupied rooms and it's unclear to me if the addition of fans makes it off label, but even if so don't see why it should be off discussion as we are adults aren't we, and sometimes we even act like them

    Richard

  4. jim danca

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Aug 8 2015 15:05:44
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    Richard56 - 5 minutes ago <a href="http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/why-n

    The label on the hot shot product clearly states "only to be installed in garages, attics, crawlspaces, and sheds occupied by people for less than four hours a day. I think this is the link to a story http://www.wired.com/2014/cdc-warning-misuse-pest-strips/

    PCO and inventor of a bio active bedbug trap
  5. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Aug 8 2015 16:56:22
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    Richard56 - 1 hour ago  » 

    And again, I believe Paul was recommending area treatment in the other thread of unoccupied rooms and it's unclear to me if the addition of fans makes it off label, but even if so don't see why it should be off discussion as we are adults aren't we, and sometimes we even act like them
    Richard

    My point was this should be two different discussions:

    1. Is using DDVP to treat an unoccupied home a good idea? (I would defer to experts on this.)

    2. Is using this U Fl experimental off-label idea of treating an unoccupied home with a heater + DDVP + a fan a good idea. (Again, my response would be probably not.)

    Also, you're missing the point when you talk about "using a fan" with DDVP. I was not commenting on the addition of a fan but rather was commenting specifically on the heater + fan + DDVP which was the idea Jim commented on negatively and which I had heard negative responses to outside the forums.

    If you want to discuss this I would urge you to separate out the two discussions, to avoid confusing convoluted answers. I'm not saying you have to (as an admin). I just think it makes things much easier and less confusing for respondents and readers.

  6. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 7:02:06
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    Hmmm . . .

    And YIKES !

    I'm not sure on what exactly to comment on here due to the twists & turns above. As such, I'll just state the facts:

    1. Is dichlorvos effective against bed bugs? Yes. In fact, its one of the most effect BB killers available world wide. ( note ddvp = dichlorvos)

    2. Did the University of FL publish a story about how they used strips + heat + fans to kill Bed Bugs 100% ? Yes they did.

    3. Did people "copy" the UFL methodology? Yup.

    4. Did the FL DACS (regulatory agency) publish a letter asking folks to NOT do this? Yes.

    5. Did folks at UFL defend this methodology and state it works? Yes.

    6. Is this a political situation? Yes.

    7. Does the manufacturer support and recommend this use? No.

    8. Can pest strips be used to treat an entire home or an entire room? Yes but if so, these treated spaces must be not occupied.

    9. Is using pest strips as a stand alone treatment a "good idea" ? Pest strips containing ddvp will assuredly provide 100% kill when used correctly. However, there is NO residual provided with dichlorvos. As such, I recommend that pest strips be used in conjunction with other methodologies and products to provide long term control.

    10. Is using a fan recommended? Yes. Use of a fan to gently stir the air within the treatment space facilitates the movement of the treatment vapors to areas where BBs or eggs may be hidden.

    11. So what's the problem with using a heater? Use of a heater may accelerate the emission of vapors from the strip. The regulatory folks are concerned that: a) this accelerates the quantity of material applied which could then exceed the threshold amount currently allowed for this product, b) this is not in compliance with current label directions.

    12. ALWAYS Read and Follow Label Directions !

    Please note that I have a professional relationship with the manufacturers of pest strips as a consulting entomologist and pest professional. NO ONE who participates on this forum knows more about this product than myself. As such, should you have any additional questions or concerns about such products and/or how to use them effectively you're likely best off by asking me directly.

    Have a great day ! pjb

  7. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 7:39:53
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    Hi Paul,

    First, thanks for your answer. Somehow the "heat" issue became the focus of this thread, and I'm not sure why since I never mentioned heat. The heat issue was brought up by another poster in terms of the Florida Study, and in a negative way, not promoting it.

    That said, the same Florida Study also stated that bed bugs and eggs could be killed in 7 days when DDVP strips are used alone, and in 3 days when used with a fan. This was without heat, so let's put the heat issue aside as it seems both dangerous and to be confusing the issue, and in fact the study itself showed that heat isn't needed.

    Florida study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21332764

    So moving on...

    1. Your comment on "residual" is well taken, but I still don't understand why DDVP strips aren't used more often in unoccupied rooms either for treatment or to create a large kill chamber, sort of like a gigantic packtite? Can you please explain why? Same question with whole houses?

    2. How "closed off" does the designated room have to be? Door and windows shut? Or really sealed with tape, plastic, caulk, etc.

    3. If the room doesn't have to be really sealed, can someone occupy that room for up to 4 hours a day as has been suggested by OP?

    4. If the room doesn't have to be sealed, what about environmental hazards to those living in an adjoining room or neighbors?

    5. When bed bugs are treated in an enclosed room, is there a chance the bed bugs will flee the vapors and therefore enter other rooms, such as they might do if an aerosol is used or if only one room is heated in a house. Or, is it a case where they don't know what hit them, and they just succumb to the vapors?

    Richard

  8. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 8:11:51
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    PJB:

    NO ONE who participates on this forum knows more about this product than myself. As such, should you have any additional questions or concerns about such products and/or how to use them effectively you're likely best off by asking me directly.

    Sorry, missed that part before I asked additional questions. Hopefully, you will be able to answer them in the forum, but if not thanks for opening up alternate channels for folks interested in this subject.

    Richard

  9. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 9:09:58
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    My responses to the questions posted above by Richard appear here below:

    1. Your comment on "residual" is well taken, but I still don't understand why DDVP strips aren't used more often in unoccupied rooms either for treatment or to create a large kill chamber, sort of like a gigantic packtite? Can you please explain why? Same question with whole houses?

    A: Firstly, "who says" they're not being used in this fashion. Just because there's not a myriad of pest pros posting on this BBF that they are using this product does not mean it's not being used in the variety of fashions within the question posted above. I can tell you that there are pros using this product in these various ways. Can I tell you how many or how many BB jobs are being done in this fashion? No. However, product sales indicate that the product is widely used across the US market by pest professionals. In short, this product may be used in the fashion described within the question and as I've explained numerous times before.

    2. How "closed off" does the designated room have to be? Door and windows shut? Or really sealed with tape, plastic, caulk, etc.

    A: Note that this product works as an airborne vapor. As such, the more "fresh air" which is allowed to enter the "treatment space", the greater the air concentration will be diluted thus reducing the effectiveness of the treatment being done. If you look back at my may previous posts you will see that I use the term "sealed". Ideally, we want no source of fresh air coming into the sealed treatment space such that the treatment vapor concentration can build to the effective level. This means we need to do any work necessary to assure that the "treatment space" is sealed from fresh air intrusion:
    * Close windows
    * Close doors
    * Seal off any HVAC
    * Seal off any significant gaps, etc.

    3. If the room doesn't have to be really sealed, can someone occupy that room for up to 4 hours a day as has been suggested by OP?

    A: The treatment space needs to be sealed as per above. Review of the product label indicates that a person may enter and/or be in the area being treated for up to four hours per day. However, my recommendation is to avoid entering or opening the treated space as doing so introduces fresh air which may effect the treatment time necessary and may expose the individual to pesticides unnecessarily.

    4. If the room doesn't have to be sealed, what about environmental hazards to those living in an adjoining room or neighbors?

    A: See above. Additionally, studies regarding exposure to adjoining rooms have been done. Under normal circumstances the product vapors are not found in adjoining rooms and these vapors are NOT true fumigant gases and are NOT capable of penetrating or passing through various materials as fumigant gases do.

    5. When bed bugs are treated in an enclosed room, is there a chance the bed bugs will flee the vapors and therefore enter other rooms, such as they might do if an aerosol is used or if only one room is heated in a house. Or, is it a case where they don't know what hit them, and they just succumb to the vapors?

    A: Tests conducted indicate that the treatment vapors are not detected or repellent as you've asked above.

    Additionally, the US Professional Market is now using the Nuvan Directed Spray Aerosol product since it was launched in 2014. This is a "Pro Only" type product and affords the Pro certain advantages in his bed bug treatment work.

    For additional information refer to my Nuvan FAQs which are available online.

    Please advise if any additional questions or concerns.

    pjb

  10. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 9:41:39
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    pjb: Firstly, "who says" they're not being used in this fashion. Just because there's not a myriad of pest pros posting on this BBF that they are using this product does not mean it's not being used in the variety of fashions within the question posted above.
    ----------------------------------
    This is interesting to hear. And maybe other pros will chime in as to why they choose (or choose not to) use this method. To me, a layman, it seems to afford a number of advantages over the extensive prep, vac, steam, spray, dust, bag approach that we hear of so often here. And if not for a whole house, certainly for treatment of lots of "stuff" and large furniture items by designating a room as a DDVP "kill" zone. Sort of like a room-size PackTite!

    pjb: Additionally, the US Professional Market is now using the Nuvan Directed Spray Aerosol product since it was launched in 2014. This is a "Pro Only" type product and affords the Pro certain advantages in his bed bug treatment work.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Understood this is "Pro Only" and not for DIY. That said, could you expand on the "certain advantages" and how and where the pros might use this product over the strips? Like much of what we learn here, the information doesn't necessarily have to be used by the layman to be useful, but can help the layman understand the pro treatment process better.

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on DDVP.

    Richard

  11. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Aug 9 2015 23:39:36
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    I believe we lost a post or two from this thread due to a database issue following the migration. Please see this thread for more explanation.

  12. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Aug 10 2015 8:21:57
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    In response to Richard's question posted above:

    Q: "Understood this is "Pro Only" and not for DIY. That said, could you expand on the "certain advantages" and how and where the pros might use this product over the strips?"

    A: Formulated at 0.5%, the NDSA product allows the Pro to apply a greater concentration of AI to targeted areas, i.e. harborages & areas where bed bugs are located, during the application process. As such, the Pro is able to kill bed bugs "right now" rather than have to wait many hours or days as would be required for the pest strips since the strips emit very low concentrations of AI over time. Further, because this product also works via delivery of treatment vapor, the product is able to enter into harborage areas where bed bugs may be hidden and otherwise inaccessible.

    While this AI is very effective against bed bugs, it is a non-residual type product once applied which also addresses and mitigates hazard related concerns.

    Let me know if any additional questions or concerns.

    pjb

  13. Montrealer2

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Aug 11 2015 22:34:59
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    Richard, 1st, thanks for following-up on some of my questions and creating this interesting new topic. And PJB, thanks for all the information. However, a holdover from one of my original questions in another thread referred to by Richard, and partially addressed here, is this:
    Regarding bugs "escaping the vapours": Understood that they won't flee, since vapours are undetected, but what about bugs simply going about their nightly business if seeking out warm, carbon-dioxide-emitting humans? If there are no problems with occupying adjoining rooms, as per Paul Bello's post above, then will sleeping in a room near the not-railroad-car-level-sealed-off treatment room on, let's say, days 1 through 2 post-treatment, allow bugs who have been hiding deep in the treatment room and have not yet succumbed to the chemicals the op to sniff us out and come for breakfast, lunch and dinner?
    And if so, at what point can we actually sleep at home, happily dreaming of the nearby bugs meeting their doom?
    Thanks!

  14. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 7:23:22
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    If I understand you correctly, what you're asking is will any bugs in the room being treated with DDVP strips be lured into other rooms due to the presence of warm, C02 emitting humans? Great question!
    ------------------------

    First, I'd like to hear Paul's or any other pro's thoughts on this.

    My own thinking is that the short answer is "maybe", but the longer answer is that they may also leave the room for other reasons, or in fact may already be in other rooms, as bed bug infestations are often in multiple rooms, and that's why more than one room is often treated when a home has a bed bug infestation.

    So, I think what it comes down to is what are your objectives using DDVP strips?

    If your objective is to create a DDVP "kill room" for furniture and stuff, then from what I've read here it should work. Sort of like a gigantic PakTite unit.

    But if your objective is to treat your entire home, then you have to do more.

    Doing more could be using a more conventional treatment approach throughout the home, including residual products.

    Or, if you want to use DDVP as your primary treatment method, that I assume would mean using DDVP in all the rooms, so in that case you would want to vacate the premises during that process. And also, as Paul said, DDVP has no residual effect, so if you go the DDVP route in all rooms, you might consider using a residual product as well.

    Again, would like to hear what Paul and the other pros have to say.

    Richard

  15. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 8:32:53
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    Hmmm . . .

    OK, I'll try to address these questions as concisely as possible here below:

    Q: Regarding bugs "escaping the vapours": Understood that they won't flee, since vapours are undetected, but what about bugs simply going about their nightly business if seeking out warm, carbon-dioxide-emitting humans?

    A: The treatment space is supposed to be sealed. If there are physical/structural issues with the room being used as the "treatment chamber" then these areas should be suitably addressed. For example: 1) Electric outlets and other utility penetrations should be treated (a dust may be best) and sealed. 2) Doors may be sealed using tape. 3) Others . . .

    Q: If there are no problems with occupying adjoining rooms, as per Paul Bello's post above, then will sleeping in a room near the not-railroad-car-level-sealed-off treatment room on, let's say, days 1 through 2 post-treatment, allow bugs who have been hiding deep in the treatment room and have not yet succumbed to the chemicals the op to sniff us out and come for breakfast, lunch and dinner?

    A: Firstly, what does "not-railroad-car-level-sealed-off" mean? Please note that in my version and understanding of the English language that sealed = sealed.

    You also ask about " . . . bugs who have been hiding deep in the treatment room and have not yet succumbed to the chemicals . . ." Note that bugs which are not dead can pretty much do what they do. When used correctly these pesticide products do a good job at killing bed bugs. If there are any remaining BBs this indicates that they've "been missed" for some reason and "operator error" is usually the reason. In other words, we just weren't thorough enough or we failed to adequately recognize and address a pertinent issue.

    Q: And if so, at what point can we actually sleep at home, happily dreaming of the nearby bugs meeting their doom?

    A: Well, if you know what you're doing, doing it well and being thorough in your BB elimination work you can pretty much be bed bug free after you've done this work on day one. Anything less than this is setting your sites too low and the danger in doing so, as they say, is that you'll achieve your goal.

    Q: Thanks!

    A: You're welcome, have a nice day !

    pjb

  16. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 8:44:11
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    ADDITIONALLY !

    As I may have not mentioned this above please note that despite it being one of the world's best bed bug killing agents, I do not recommend the use of dichlorvos/ddvp/pest strips as a "stand alone" type BB treatment for an entire residence solely because this is a "no residual" product.

    My recommendation to those pros who contact me for advice includes the use of both non-chemical and chemical methodologies (ie residual products as well) along with dichlorvos/ddvp products.

    Please advise if any remaining questions or concerns.

    pjb

  17. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 13:11:46
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    Pjb

    Please advise if any remaining questions or concerns
    .

    Thanks again, Paul. And, yes, have a good question but away from computer. Stay tuned...

    Richard

  18. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 14:01:15
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    pjb:

    As I may have not mentioned this above please note that despite it being one of the world's best bed bug killing agents, I do not recommend the use of dichlorvos/ddvp/pest strips as a "stand alone" type BB treatment for an entire residence solely because this is a "no residual" product.

    To help me better understand how DDVP strips might be used as a "whole home" treatment, let me present two hypothetical treatment protocol's. Protocol 1 would in most cases be done by a PCO. Protocol 2, could be done by a PCO, but I also see it being done by a home owner.

    (1) Protocol 1(Traditional): or lets' say a commonly discussed treatment protocol -- Extensive or limited client prep that might include among other things :wash and esp dry, and perhaps bagging of non-treatable items, use of PakTite type devices, Box spring and/or mattress cover. Then PCO vacuums, steams, sprays and dusts. Repeat at least part of previous 2-5 times depending on individual treatment approach, extent of infestation, etc.

    (2) Protocol 2 (DDVP oriented) : No prep other than clothes and items arranged to help optimize exposure to DDVP fumes. DDVP strips then hung in all rooms and closets per label with some small air circulating fans. Rooms closed/sealed per previous comments by Paul. Residual product such as Cimexa applied in cracks and crevices per label. Ideally premises is vacated for 3 days, but in any event there should be no more than 4 hours of exposure per 24 hours to the fumes.

    IMO treatment "2" (DDVP oriented) in certain cases, for certain people, might be a better solution in that it requires less prep time and should cost a lot less, especially if done by the home owner. I would also imagine it should also cost less if done by a PCO.

    So...here's the question -- is treatment "2" as effective as treatment "1"? More effective? Less effective?

    Richard

  19. Montrealer2

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 21:07:25
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    P Bello - 12 hours ago  » 
    ... Q: If there are no problems with occupying adjoining rooms, as per Paul Bello's post above, then will sleeping in a room near the not-railroad-car-level-sealed-off treatment room on, let's say, days 1 through 2 post-treatment, allow bugs who have been hiding deep in the treatment room and have not yet succumbed to the chemicals the op to sniff us out and come for breakfast, lunch and dinner?

    A: Firstly, what does "not-railroad-car-level-sealed-off" mean? Please note that in my version and understanding of the English language that sealed = sealed.
    pjb

    Hi PJB,
    That was in friendly-jab reference to your interesting list of examples of what "enclosed space" meant (from the Debugging large couch cushions thread), before you opted for the more conventional yet redundant "sealed = sealed" definition.
    But in all seriousness, I thank you both for your expertise and your NY humour.

    re:

    Q: And if so, at what point can we actually sleep at home, happily dreaming of the nearby bugs meeting their doom?

    A: Well, if you know what you're doing, doing it well and being thorough in your BB elimination work you can pretty much be bed bug free after you've done this work on day one. Anything less than this is setting your sites too low and the danger in doing so, as they say, is that you'll achieve your goal.

    Noted -- as long as bugs are stuck in the treatment area with no way out but through some residuals, the DDVP strips can work their magic over several days/2+ weeks. Thanks.

    Richard, thanks for the breakdown and clarifications (and advice!). As per your Protocol 1 (PCO) vs. Protocol 2 (DDVP, self-treat) scenarios, I am opting for a combo of the two. I know this is off-topic for this thread, since clearly you posited whether DDVP + self-treatment alone could be effective, but since most PCOs advise chemicals/residuals, and since many landlords seem to be miseducated, ignorant, cheap, etc, and provide only the minimal PCO power, why not double-down and really give these bugs hell?
    OK, enough hijacking -- back to your discussion!

    I disagree that @2 is less time-intensive in all situations -- to prep my place for strips such that everything is "sealed = sealed" will require time, cost for caulking baseboards + resealing wood floors/, effort for powdering all outlets then sealing gaps. I'll still do it -- mostly because after 2 spot treatments, no powder left by PCO, and no adjacent neighbours treated (though hastily "inspected"), I am now on my own. I personally like the security of a professional (or even what I had), with the add-on of some good ole' DIY.

  20. Richard56

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Aug 12 2015 22:35:06
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    M2:

    I know this is off-topic for this thread, since clearly you posited whether DDVP + self-treatment alone could be effective, but since most PCOs advise chemicals/residuals,

    If you read carefully the two treatment protocols I asked Paul to compare, it's not DDVP plus self-treatment alone -- it's DDVP plus residual chemicals/dust either DIY or by a PCO versus a more traditional approach often involving extensive prep and multiple chemical treatments.

    M2:

    I disagree that @2 is less time-intensive in all situations -- to prep my place for strips such that everything is "sealed = sealed" will require time, cost for caulking baseboards + resealing wood floors/, effort for powdering all outlets then sealing gaps.

    Please read Paul's comments about "sealing" again. I do not think he means it literally as you are contemplating. Simply shut the doors, windows and fill in major gaps. That's it. *

    As far as "powdering all outlets, etc, you (or your PCO) will need to use a residua dust whether you go with plan 1 or 2, so that is a wash. So, what you're really comparing, time wise, is minimal prep as I described, and hanging the strips. Compare this to the extensive prep involved in traditonal treatment, plus multiple pesticide applications.

    Frankly, unless Paul's answers to my questions point otherwise, the disadvantage to the DDVP approach is not time or money, but the fact you may have to vacate the premises for a few days, which at least to me seems like a very good trade off, versus staying around and being mealtime for the bugs for "x" weeks until traditional chemical treatment takes care of them.

    But again, my thoughts are all based on my interpretation of what Paul has said, and his answers to my questions may change my mind.

    * EDIT: I was basing my definition of "sealed" per Paul's first answer which was as follows:

    * Close windows
    * Close doors
    * Seal off any HVAC
    * Seal off any significant gaps, etc.

    I now see he later uses a "sealed means sealed" definition. I think this needs some clarification because the above is not very time consuming, but going beyond that could be depending on the structure. That said, I would think even taping and some caulking would not take more than 1-2 hours per room which is still less labor intensive then a lot of the prep I have read about here, not to mention what is involved in 2-5 traditional chemical treatments. (I spent more than 2 hours per room just packtiting all my books!) And again, I'm not talking about residual "dust", because that would be used in either of the two treatment approaches, so time-wise it's a wash.

    Richard

  21. P Bello

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    Thu Aug 13 2015 7:21:07
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    Some additional clarification:

    1. Killing bed bugs is NOT rocket science! What we need to do is assure that the methodology being used, whether chemical, non-chemical or other, is successfully delivered to the bed bug in an efficacious manner. We need not over think or over complicate this fundamental and universally true concept.

    2. Regarding sealing: When I refer to sealing, an enclosed space, treatment chamber, etc. in association with and regarding the use of dichlorvos vapors my primary concern is the retention of the treatment vapors within the treated space such that an effective concentration is delivered to the target pest.

    For example: On Saturday I will be presenting a bed bug seminar at a pest control conference. There a "live demonstration" will be conducted for the attendees (they expect about 150 to 200 on a Saturday which is pretty cool I guess). Note that I've done this demonstration countless times thus far. The demonstration will be conducted using a 10 gallon fish tank in which will be placed numerous subject insects ("feeder crickets" because conference locations pretty much don't like us folks using live bed bugs, go figure ! ). Suspended near the center top of the tank will be a small piece of pest strip. The tank will then be covered or sealed via a plexiglass lid.

    These crickets will be placed as follows within the tank:

    a. Loose - these will all die within about 16 to 18 mins.
    b. In a jar topped with one layer of terry cloth or cotton T-shirt material - these will all die in about 20 mins.
    c. In a jar topped with three layers as per b above - these will die in about 45 to 60 mins.
    d. In a jar topped with a 1/64 inch plexiglass gap - these will die in about 60 mins.
    e. In a jar topped with five layers as per b above - these will not be killed.
    f. In a jar topped with its lid - these will not be killed.

    So, what's the point here?

    The above demonstrates that the insects sufficiently exposed to the vapors are killed. Note that for the increased kill times that it simply takes longer for the vapors to get into those jars in sufficient concentration to result in mortality.

    Also note that insects in flavor e & f above are not killed. This is so because the treatment vapors simply are not delivered to these insects. There's no magic involved here folks, refer to #1 above !

    What about sealing?

    Ah yes, that's one of the things we're supposed to be talking about here !

    In the past I've used "saran wrap" to cover the tank but doing so is PIY and a plexi top is way easier to deal with. At times, the saran wrap would just kinda-sorta fall off leaving the tank uncovered and/or "not sealed". When this occurred fresh air was able to enter the tank which diluted the vapor concentration. This would result in increased exposure time necessary to kill the insects. And, might result in no kill should there be adequate air movement resulting in sufficiently increased reduction of the vapor concentration such that the needed lethal concentration is not attained. Remember, refer to #1 above.

    3. Creating a sealed treatment space:
    Yeah, people like to joke around sometimes but, let's take this a bit serious here cause this may be important to those who really need to know this stuff. OK? Good !

    a. The only limit to the number of sealed spaces which may be created is your imagination and resources.
    b. Ideally, the sealed space is literally sealed with no air movement either in or out. This is what we should be trying to achieve; no air intrusion. Do not over think this, it is a simple concept.
    c. Sealed treatment chambers can be fashioned in many configurations including but not limited to: closets, rooms, storage bins, tarps, plastic bags, etc.
    d. Note that my preference and recommendation is to use a rigid sided enclose-able space because this is best to assure that there is head space or air space needed to assist the treatment vapors to travel within the treated space.
    d. Can an entire house be a treated space? Yes.

    4. Assuring success & avoiding failure:

    There are certain things which can be done to assure success. Again, refer to #1 above as this is what we're trying to accomplish.

    a. Do NOT over pack or over stuff the treatment space ! Doing so will be akin to the fish tank example e or f above. This would be an operator or application error.

    b. In the fish tank example we are relying upon a process correctly known as diffusion. Note that some folks, including myself, refer to this as Brownian movement but I've had many a scientist tell me it is more correct to call it diffusion. In any case, depending upon the size of the treatment space, diffusion can take a long time to fully occur. The treatment time can be reduced and delivery enhanced if we "stir the air" via the use of an electric fan.

    c. We need to "stir" the air, not create a wind tunnel. A small or suitably sized fan for the space will do.

    5. What about heat?
    a. Do not heat the strips as this will affect the release rate.
    b. Note that warm air can enhance efficacy because bed bugs will be more active in their ideal temperature range than if the treated space falls below normal room temperature.

    6. What about chemical hazard?
    a. Always read and follow pesticide label directions.
    b. Overall, in my opinion, hazard tends to be overstated by many who do not well understand science.
    c. We need to understand this conceptual formula: Hazard = Exposure x Dosage.
    d. Simply stated, there are literally very small amounts of pesticide emitted or applied each day via the use of a pest strip.
    e. However, this does not mean that we can be cavalier with safety ! We MUST adhere to product label directions and safety precautions.

    Let me know if any additional questions or concerns.

    Hope this helps, have a great day !

    pjb

  22. Richard56

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    Thu Aug 13 2015 8:30:58
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    pjb:

    In a jar topped with five layers (of terry cloth or t-shirt material) - these will not be killed

    Thanks again for the great information!

    In the case of using the DDVP strips in larger spaces, i.e. whole room or whole house, would the use of active monitors be beneficial to lure bed bugs out of potential hiding places where the vapors might not reach, such as for example inside a book, which I would imagine to be at least the equivalent of five layers of t-shirt material.

    Richard

  23. P Bello

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    Thu Aug 13 2015 11:42:32
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    We need bed bugs to be breathing and exposed to the treatment vapors. As such, anything that enhances this occurrence, such as what you're suggesting above, would be beneficial in my opinion.

    However, we need to assure that these "lures" actually work lest we have expended time, energy and resources for little, if any, benefit.

    pjb

  24. Richard56

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    Thu Aug 13 2015 14:07:16
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    So what I'm getting out of this is that while it's important to make efforts to "seal" the treatment area, probably even more important is arranging things so that the vapors reach the bugs.

    Label states a "minimum of 48 to 72 hours...to control bed bug nymphs and adults. A minimum of one week...to control bed bug eggs"

    I imagine the longer time (compared to the 16-18 minutes) kill time in the demo example, previously, is a combination of things.

    1. Larger space requires more time for vapor action to reach target kill concentration.

    2. Bugs in a harborage that is hard to reach by the vapors may take several days to come out of the harborage to look for a meal, whether lured out by an active monitor or simply because they are hungry.

    3. The eggs in a harborage that is hard to reach by the vapors need time to hatch and then come out to be exposed.

    So, Paul, trying to put 2 and 2 together, but want to make sure I'm on the right track with the above?

    ------------
    The label also states: "...DDVP is a non-residual insecticide. After application, DDVP acts quickly on labeled pests and then it is rapidly degraded. The impregnated resin strip continually releases small amounts of DDVP, for up to four months, which makes NUVAN PROSTRIPS perform like a residual product"

    Could you comment on what "rapidly degraded" translates to in terms of time -- hours, days, weeks? And, after the rapid degradation, would it then be safe to occupy the premises for more than 4 hours to benefit from any "residual" effect?

    Richard

  25. P Bello

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    Fri Aug 14 2015 9:05:19
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    See my responses (R:) to Richards comments & questions (Q:) below:

    Q: So what I'm getting out of this is that while it's important to make efforts to "seal" the treatment area, probably even more important is arranging things so that the vapors reach the bugs.
    R: It’s equally important to make an effort to assure that the treatment vapor is able to reach the areas where the BBs are located. Again, refer to concept #1 posted above !
    Q: Label states a "minimum of 48 to 72 hours...to control bed bug nymphs and adults. A minimum of one week...to control bed bug eggs"
    R: In both lab and field conditions we’re able to kill crawling bugs relatively quickly. However, due to individual variability, some BBs take longer to kill than others. The label language represents the average time needed to kill 100% of the crawling BBs suitably exposed.
    Q: I imagine the longer time (compared to the 16-18 minutes) kill time in the demo example, previously, is a combination of things.
    R: There are various factors at play depending upon the circumstances. Of these, the most important are dosage delivered & exposure time. Again, refer to concept #1.

    Q: Larger space requires more time for vapor action to reach target kill concentration.
    R: Logically & simply stated yes but, this also may be dependent upon other various factors.
    Q: Bugs in a harborage that is hard to reach by the vapors may take several days to come out of the harborage to look for a meal, whether lured out by an active monitor or simply because they are hungry.

    R: Uh, er, not so much. The idea here is to set up and apply properly such that the treatment vapors are delivered to these areas. Refer to concept #1 again. “Lured out” would obviously shorten the time duration required.
    Q: The eggs in a harborage that is hard to reach by the vapors need time to hatch and then come out to be exposed.
    R: Not so much. Eggs respire slowly which is why they take an average of 5.5 days to kill 100% when suitably exposed to treatment vapors. This is why the label says seven days for eggs. Newly hatch nymphs are killed relatively quickly.
    However, here’s another concept/idea for you. Suppose you can’t do a treatment for seven days in a row but still have concern about eggs, what can you do? It’s possible to do a treatment for 48 to 72 hours followed by a few days and then do another such treatment. Timed correctly, say a week to ten days later, this would allow eggs to hatch in time for these newly hatched nymphs to be exposed and killed during the second treatment. Make sense? OK, good.

    Q: So, Paul, trying to put 2 and 2 together, but want to make sure I'm on the right track with the above?
    R: Remember, you can be “on the right track” but still headed in the wrong direction.
    ------------
    Q: The label also states: "...DDVP is a non-residual insecticide. After application, DDVP acts quickly on labeled pests and then it is rapidly degraded. The impregnated resin strip continually releases small amounts of DDVP, for up to four months, which makes NUVAN PROSTRIPS perform like a residual product"
    Could you comment on what "rapidly degraded" translates to in terms of time -- hours, days, weeks?
    R: Dichlorvos is a non-residual insecticide. It is readily affected by hydrolysis in the presence of moisture/water. Once the strip is removed, there is no continued source of emission of the AI. And, since these strips last for four months/120 days, the amount which is emitted each day, less that which is constantly retained within the strip due to various factors, is a very small amount. Note that this is a factor which mitigates much of the hazard. Regarding rapid degradation, we’re talking like minutes.

    Q: And, after the rapid degradation, would it then be safe to occupy the premises for more than 4 hours to benefit from any "residual" effect?
    R: Hmmm . . . I’m NOT sure this is a valid question or that you’re asking the question you intended here. Note that after the degradation of any pesticide AI there would be no remaining pesticide present. As such, there’d be no hazard concern regarding that specific AI.
    In any case, you must always read and follow pesticide label directions. After such application of pest strip products you would then ventilate the treated space prior to re-occupation and/or re-use.

    Please advise if any additional questions or concerns.

    Hope this helps and thanks for the questions ! pjb

  26. Montrealer2

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Fri Aug 14 2015 14:49:42
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    Richard, re: Protocol 2 as not just DIY


    If you read carefully the two treatment protocols I asked Paul to compare, it's not DDVP plus self-treatment alone -- it's DDVP plus residual chemicals/dust... Protocol 2, could be done by a PCO, but I also see it being done by a home owner... "Protocol 2 (DDVP oriented): No prep other than clothes and items arranged to help optimize exposure to DDVP fumes. DDVP strips then hung... Residual product such as Cimexa applied in cracks and crevices per label. [May require] less prep time and should cost a lot less, especially if done by the home owner. I would also imagine it should also cost less if done by a PCO."

    I don't see this "residual product applied" distinction pointing to PCO help, since this can somewhat easily be done by the homeowner, so the PCO is a removable part of the equation (although surely any expert would do a better job). Of course, in the US, applying chemical sprays and other longer-or even shorter-acting treatments can be DIY, too, so maybe my Canadian POV (Gov. won't let us do/use anything, it seems) coloured my understanding of this treatment.

    P Bello - 1 day ago  » 
    3. Creating a sealed treatment space:
    Yeah, people like to joke around sometimes but, let's take this a bit serious here cause this may be important to those who really need to know this stuff. OK? Good !
    pjb

    :-)I think we all got our giggles out and that anyone reading along can sidestep these to get to the great discussion and info (again, thank you, PJB, Nobugs and Richard).

    P Bello - 1 day ago  » 
    4. Assuring success & avoiding failure:
    a. Do NOT over pack or over stuff the treatment space ! Doing so will be akin to the fish tank example e or f above. This would be an operator or application error.
    Let me know if any additional questions or concerns.
    pjb

    PJB, can you please define a suitably packed space?
    For example, I sealed off my bedroom last night with caulking for sideboards/floorboards and weatherstripping for windows and between the bottom of the door and the floor, so I am ready to pack what I can into this sealed room. I have room for bedroom furniture, obviously, but I have loosely stacked drawers in a staggered arrangement on top of furniture, left ~5-inch space between walls and any furniture, and plan to hang non-washable (dry-clean-only) previously bagged clothes in the open-doored closet. I also plan to drag my treated couch in there (there is adequate floor space) plus maybe an office chair (fabric seat) and a coffee table from the living room. I was hoping to get some rugs in there, too (6x8 plush, a few 5x7 thinner area rugs, etc) and maybe some electronics and smaller such items, strewn throughout the area.
    So again, given that I will have two small fans going (one blowing lengthwise, the other depth-wise), is it better to stack UP (maybe stand couch on side)- to take advantage of head space but maybe block a few surfaces here and there-- or stack side by side to allow airflow everywhere but miss out on the higher levels of the treatment area? Or a happy medium?

    Thank you!

  27. Richard56

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    Fri Aug 14 2015 16:31:51
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    M2:

    I don't see this "residual product applied" distinction pointing to PCO help, since this can somewhat easily be done by the homeowner, so the PCO is a removable part of the equation (although surely any expert would do a better job). Of course, in the US, applying chemical sprays and other longer-or even shorter-acting treatments can be DIY, too,

    My point wasn't that applying a residual product necessitated a PCO, but that since residual product would be applied in pretty much any treatment scenario, then it's a wash in terms of "time spent treating". The point again was that I felt the DDVP oriented approach could be less labor intensive and intrusive than the traditional approach because both treatment scenarios could be either DIY or by a Pro, or some combination.

    As to how to arrange the room, I'm sure Paul will have a more comprehensive answer, but my thoughts are to go over again Paul's "Cricket" experiment and keep it in mind when laying things out to offer as much vapor access as possible to target surfaces. So, as one example, I would remove the couch cushions so they do not block vapors from getting to the couch. Might also want to remove the backing. Also, consider hard foam, or wood blocks to prop up larger items so as to get as much circulation under the items as possible. As for clothes, hanging on racks with space between as opposed to stacking, etc.

    Lastly, if you have saved any live bugs, you might want to place them in strategic spots (within a permeable enclosure) to test the efficacy of the actual treatment process.

    Anyway, glad to see your progress and that you're about ready to go. We await you results, which sound like they will be positive based on your approach!

    Richard

  28. Montrealer2

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    Fri Aug 14 2015 19:05:33
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    Protocol 2 points noted, Richard. Perhaps another reason I didn't see residual powder as anything but a DIY process is because the "exterminators" hired by the management co. of my building did nothing but spray chemicals on two occasions in areas I had asked them to (after a quickish "inspection" in areas I told them I suspected). No residual powders, just the quickly approaching end of the residual period of the (pyrethroid!) chemical sprayed. Hence why I am DIY DE'ing, caulking, and DDVP'ing (am I the only one who laughs when reading that last one aloud?).
    Thanks for the stacking info, too. Turns out my massive couch can not be manoeuvred around the tight corners leading into the bedroom, so I should have plenty of room for everything else to rest on the bedroom floor -- though thank you for the underside-airflow idea. I have never found a live or even dead bug, so unfortunately I can't use your brilliant monitoring technique and will have to just hope all is as it should be.
    With Paul's great suggestion of doing two shorter bursts of pet-strip applications (4 days on, 1 week off, 4 days on again), I figure I can always rearrange and restack for a few "on" rounds if it turns out my strategy was not ideal (or rearrange quickly during one treatment period if need be, gas mask and goggles firmly in place), but I want to get those strips up and diffusing death to bugs tonight.
    Will keep all posted - thanks!

  29. Richard56

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    Sat Aug 15 2015 15:45:00
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    Good luck and keep us posted! As to the couch, as long as you're getting strips, consider tenting the couch with plastic sheeting, duct tape and some form of simple support to keep the sheeting from imploding. The cushions, and anything else that comes apart could go into your treatment room.

    Richard

  30. Montrealer2

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    Mon Aug 17 2015 5:41:58
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    Thanks, Richard - may not be the prettiest usage of an old rolled0up poster, but I centred it on my cushion-less couch and taped a pest strip near the top, creating a tent-like top to the plastic encasement. I also used wadded up cardboard as makeshift blocks on the couch legs to elevate it, and partially removed and taped open areas of the underside backing. I also plan to lightly rustle the plastic every few days to get some air flow in the "tent."
    Thanks for all your help.
    Any final verdict on the thesis of this thread, BTW? I, for one, still prefer the "washing/bagging" prep, since as Paul Bello has said in various threads, if the dichlorvos can't get to the places where bugs are, then it can't work. So unless all clothes can be spread out/opened up enough to allow for full air access to all tufts and folds, then it's, to me, setting yourself up for dashed hopes.
    Plus this way, the DDVP allows more room for hopeful hope and space for dry-clean-only items.
    My two cents (which, I guess, is equal to nothing here in Canada, where the penny has been abolished and everything is rounded up or down ).

  31. Richard56

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    Mon Aug 17 2015 8:24:13
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    M2:

    Any final verdict on the thesis of this thread, BTW?

    Don't know about "final", but I think the more information we get, the more educated the decision making process for those needing treatment. Paul has given us some terrific info -- you are acting on some of it -- in the future there may be more questions and more answers by you, Paul and others, including myself. It will also be interesting to see how your situation resolves, as well as others who may take this route.

    I, for one, still prefer the "washing/bagging" prep, since as Paul Bello has said in various threads, if the dichlorvos can't get to the places where bugs are, then it can't work.

    If you have access to a washer -- and especially a dryer -- then heat treating clothing this way can be quick, easy and effective. If not, putting them on hangers and exposing them to the DDVP vapors seems like a reasonable alternative, or as you suggest an alternative for garments that require dry cleaning and you don't want/can't fit into the dryer.

    But to be clear, when I was referring to the "extensive prep" of traditional vs a primarily DDVP treatment, it went well beyond washing, drying and bagging clothes. In my case, I must have spent literally days PakTiting items that were not suitable for the washer or dryer, but would be suitable for DDVP treatment. So, I stand by my statements in this regard, that in many cases -- not all -- a DDVP oriented approach can save the homeowner both time and money, whether it's DIY, bringing in a PCO, or a combination. As to efficacy, I think that's what we are learning here.

    Richard

  32. Montrealer2

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    Fri Aug 21 2015 16:44:11
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    Richard56 - 4 days ago  » 
    It will also be interesting to see how your situation resolves, as well as others who may take this route.

    I'll keep you all posted!

    ... If you have access to a washer -- and especially a dryer -- then heat treating clothing this way can be quick, easy and effective. If not, putting them on hangers and exposing them to the DDVP vapors seems like a reasonable alternative... But to be clear, when I was referring to the "extensive prep" of traditional vs a primarily DDVP treatment,

    Good point on the dryer -- though I think access to a dryer at a public laundromat at the very least is an assumed universal. The time/money/energy to schlep it all is another point, of course.
    And on that note, I think we have to consider your other variable: "the inconvenience of leaving for 36 hours [or more] over what is arguably the greater inconvenience and cost of more conventional treatments."
    This "inconvenience" cannot be understated. Many people can't jaunt off to a summer home or friend's place for up to 2 weeks (or 4 days on/7 days off/4 days on, as per PJB's suggestion), especially if they have animals and especially if they have work commitments that get in the way. I have been lucky in that my cat is staying with very patient friends, but I can not abandon my place for 2 weeks (even if the time is staggered) due to various work commitments. So although I have one major "treatment room" that fits many of my belongings, this took a lot of time (prepping/sealing room, vacuumming chairs/couches/furniture first, dragging large and dozens of small items into the room and placing them with regard to max air contact, sealing up door gaps afterwards, etc.), and I thus have had to go about the DDVP'ing in a somewhat piecemeal fashion. This includes tenting/sealing my couch on a different day, arranging items in two separate closets and outside of the treatment room plus the bathroom and then sealing off these spaces—also on a different day. I still have to separately bag-treat some other items that I did not fit into the treatment rooms (or didn't have time to), including my infested/untreated/currently-bagged couch cushions, some electronics, photos, DVD, shoes, handbags, books, etc.
    All this, not to mention shopping for/buying materials required (large storage bins, duct tape, the strips themselves, etc.). I am not sure if, adding up the hours, this is indeed a time-saver over PackTiting.
    I suppose everyone will decide for her/himself what variables apply. So far, the main benefit I can see of Treatment Protocol 2 is that one can more thoroughly treat the room and all its little hiding spots as well as the belongings inside the room. To me, so far, this seems worth all the hours and energy.
    But let's hold our breath on that for now...

  33. Livingagain

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    Thu Dec 8 2016 10:22:41
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    @Montrealer2-- Whenever you are ready to call it, we'd love to hear the details of exactly what you did and if things are still clear. I see you've had some freak outs (haven't we all), but it looks as if it may have worked.

    @Richard56 Thanks for your thoughtful investigation of this topic.

  34. Livingagain

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    Thu Dec 8 2016 10:23:43
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    @Paul Bello-- If you are in a position to give Univar (I think that's the Nuvan people) advice; please tell them that instructions for PCO's would be awesome. Neither PCO that I talked to about using strips for rooms knew anything that I was talking about. Protocols for checking and sealing off vents and doors; dealing with clothes; fan speed to use that would be optimal; if spray Nuvan around baseboard gaps, etc. would be helpful; where to dust; etc., etc.

    Also, I know the heat issue is a non-appreciated topic around here, but if Univar got together with the people from Florida and gave some direction for heat, fans, vapor protection equipment for PCO's; how to seal off attics and HVAC from more volatile vapors, how to blow out attic spaces; effects of outside temperatures; etc., etc. + some of the issues above. This shorter time period could potentially be very helpful to consumers, i.e. doable on a weekend for a working family, etc.

    Paul and Univar, you could have groundbreaking results with just a little more research on the Nuvan. There could even be tools developed to more consistently deliver vapors and place them at the ideal height. Please give this some consideration.


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