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Why Bag When You Can Lure?

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  1. Richard56

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 5:27:32
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    New here, so forgive the very basic question as I'm sure it has been covered, just couldn't find the threads.

    With Chemical Treatment, most prep sheets suggest cleaning/drying all clothes and bagging prior to treatment. Beyond that, the bagging/isolation process differs depending on the PCO.

    Some seem OK leaving books and papers in place. Some suggest bagging those items and either leaving them bagged for 18 months or treating the bags with DDVP strips. Alternatively, some suggest treating the items with a Packtite unit prior to bagging. And then there are electronic`s and that pesky couch.

    Many PCO's don't seem concerned with electronics but some appear to be. The suggestion sometimes is bagging/isolating the electronics. Some here suggest bagging with DDVP strips. Others even risk use heat (Packtite for example). Fumigation (supposedly nearly full proof) is another route for all mentioned items but there is a logistical and big financial penalty here for most of us.

    My understanding (hope I get this right ) is that the concept of chemical treatment is to kill as many bugs on contact as possible (quick knock down) with the appropriate chemicals (along with vacuuming and/or steaming, cryonite with some PCO's) and then lay down a residual for those not knocked down in the initial stage. Then, using ourselves as a lure, we draw the surviving bugs out for their feeding, they pass through the chemical resisduals and soon die.

    So, here's the question. If the purpose of chemical treatment is to lure the bugs out into the chemcial kill zone, then why are some of us removing/bagging/isolating so many items from same chemical kill zone? Wouldn't in theory the bugs come out of those items, walk through the kill zone and die?

    Is it that bagging/treating/isolating is more efficient at killing then the chemical/lure approach? Is it more efficient with let's say clothes using the hot setting for a full cycle after the clothes are dry? My guess it is because so many PCO's recommend it.

    But what about the books, papers and electronics? Here we are banking that our Packtite or DDVP treatment will be more efficient at killing the bugs than leaving them in the room to be lured out through the kill zone.

    Are they? Are we sure we got the Packtite treatment items hot enough for a long enough time in the *core* which can be difficult to measure in some items such as a cushion. Or did we leave the items in the DDVP long enough as some studies suggest two weeks might not kill all the bugs in certain items. Or how efficient is the DDVP in penetrating say a stack of book? Or what about the possibility of that little tear in the bag some report after the fact? Or even is our dryer themostat off a bit, or did we overload that one load in our sometimes frantic cleaning/drying marathon?

    Because once the items are in the bag and isolated, any bugs that might have survived (because of any of the above scenarios) could very well be reintroduced into our home once we unbag. And at that point, the residuals may no longer be effective depending on how long we bag the items. And the couch -- why do some of us have it fumigated, DDVP'd, or even removed and heat treated? Again, wouldn't the bugs come out to feed and pass through the kill zone?

    I understand that there is no perfect treatment, simple answers, or a universal way of treating and it's all about risks/rewards and percentages. Just trying to figure out what makes the most sense as I personally try and figure out which items I should leave in place and which items I treat and bag. Any input is appreciated.

    Richard

  2. Richard56

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 6:10:35
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    As an addendum, I noticed that one very well respected PCO, Jeff White, appears to be anti-bag -- even with clothes -- at least for the initial treatment -- although his reasoning appears to have more to do with what he considers the unlikely possibility of bed bugs being in clothes and closets as opposed to the whole crossing the chemical barrier issue. His video on the subject can be found here: http://tv.bedbugcentral.com/index.php/2010/07/bed-bug-preparations/

    Another very well respected PCO, KillerQueen, was quoted in an interview (can't find it now) where I believe he also stated that unlike many PCO's, he believed in very little preparation on the client's side before his visit. Then, in a foot note to the interview, it was stated that he recently (recently to the article) he switched over to an extensive prep list, although it did not mention the reasons why.

    If either Jeff White or KillerQueen happens to be reading, maybe they can comment.

  3. DeedleBeetle

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 6:25:09
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    Hi..

    i am confident that my PackTite works efficiently to kill any living bug/insect/spider...whatever, in the thing i'm PTing. I did my sofa cushions and i did leave the PT going for about 3 horus once i reached 150 degrees. I think the PT killed everything that may have been living in there. I had bagged the cushions before treatment and wished that i had left them unbagged. I agree that it's sort of counter-intuitive to bag things before treatment. But i think that if you bag clean and dried things before treatment, then that makes sense. If you have clothing, books, etc. that you know harbor bbs (or other insects that you're treating for) it makes sense to me in a way not to bag them prior to treatment.

    I still am PTing stuff. I am going to take out my kitchen drawers and put them in the PT soon. I'm sure there are some roach eggs in there!

  4. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 8:29:47
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    *deletes*
    Never mind you wouldn't listen to me anyhow.

    Jim

  5. miserableone

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 10:26:15
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    lol Jim....Im curious as to what you have to say. I listen to what everyone says : 0

  6. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 10:52:36
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    miserableone - 25 minutes ago  » 
    lol Jim....Im curious as to what you have to say. I listen to what everyone says : 0

    Some folks do but I typed a response and realized who the OP was and deleted it.

    I'm not a PCO or entomologist so I can't know jack squat.

    Jim

  7. miserableone

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 10:58:44
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    I think people who have been through this experience and lived to tell the story can give good advice : ) You dont have to be a pco....just educated and informed.

  8. Ratorja

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 14:51:11
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    I used KillerQueen and I just had to wash all clothes, bag them up, and pull stuff out of my closets so he could access them. Everything else (books, etc) are left out just for that reason, so they can come out and cross poison.

    Honestly, I just feel better knowing that I washed all my clothes and then protected them from reinfestation. I wouldn't want to think about eggs and bugs in them, though I was lucky and I'm 90% sure they never made it to my clothes.

  9. BBcoukHome

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 15:15:30
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    Hi Jim,

    I am feeling your pain there bro ' I will not chip in because I am not Jeff nor KQ other than to say what you do ultimately depends on what you find and how bad things are.

    I am yet to see anyone be able to post enough pictures on line that I am able to give them a 100% accurate and effective solution without being there to inspect.

    David

  10. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 15:25:53
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    Bah you don't know squat either. Just because you are one of the UK's foremost BB bug experts doesn't count.

    Odd time for you dude. You on this side of the pond?

    Jim

  11. KillerQueen

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 16:32:05
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    Back when I first opened, all I required for prep was heat treating cloths and bagging them up. But I needed to change that because people who would confirm their own infestation (finding a bed bug) I would just schedule treatment and deal with whatever I found.

    People will tell you they are minimalists .... but when you open their closet or lift up their beds .. you find a different story. Most people started contacting me because they heard I didn't require that much prep. When I tell you they would have a 1 foot walk space around their beds with stuff stacked to the ceiling, I'm not kidding. I'm good, but not that good.

    A lot of people would not even bag up the cloths and I had to remove clothing to turn over furniture to inspect and treat. This would take time away from hunting for bugs inside of furniture .. so I felt I needed a prep sheet so people would understand this can't be won without their help as well.

    Bottom line ... If i get them to do half that is on the prep sheet ... the treatment comes out better. The prep sheet is always open to negotiation depending on the persons place and size of the infestation.

    I walked out of a very big job 2 weeks ago because the owner of a 5 story town house on the upper east side didn't want to bag his cloths. Its a crazy story .... He had a K9 clear his place .. but 2 days after that I found bugs during my inspection. He asked his sons girlfriend to find the best in the city .. and they picked me to come in. Found what nobody else could ... but he wanted option B ... After some rude exchanges from him ... I said plan B is find another company .. and I walked.

  12. BBcoukHome

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 16:39:09
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    Hi Jim,

    I don't land till 18th sept and then back out on the 20th to Chicago for the big pow wow.

    Thinking of having a battle royal in Time Square and challanging KQ for the title of the best in the city (even if only for 2 days).

    David

  13. Bed Bug Epidemic

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 16:49:09
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    I'll attend that battle

  14. KillerQueen

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 16:50:55
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    lol .. David with you here ... I'll take two days off and rest .. and leave the city all to you =)

    I'll take sencond place for 15 hrs of sleep right now.

  15. DeedleBeetle

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 16:53:48
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    oooohhh
    ooohhhhhhh

    i would consider venturing out of my cozy nook and risking the big bad outside world to see that!

  16. BBcoukHome

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 17:00:04
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    LOL, fear not it will not be duelling pistols at dawn, hopefully more of a meeting of mind over some good food and a few hours rest from running around on our feet.

    In this game it has to be said you never stop learning. Today's lesson for me was always ask questions, I was trying to explain the process of pattern recognition in source identification to an inquisitive client and based on the example I gave she actually identified her most likely source herself. It goes a long way to resolving an infestation if you know exactly what to avoid.

    David

  17. KillerQueen

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 17:15:12
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    Yeah... things do get crazy. I know you're not a fan of encasements but I do utilize them.
    I don't trust them alone without inspecting and steam treating. But a few weeks ago I was asked by my client what prep work was needed for the follow up visit. I replied, nothing except strip the beads. Well, they cut off the zip ties on 5 mattress encasements and left both mattress and box spring encasements (ten in total) on the floor in the living room. lol

    Thank god I got it right on day 1 huh? They are bug free about 2 months now I'd say.

  18. KillerQueen

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 17:17:10
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    I should also note these people had bed bugs .. for 4 years!!!!!

    Three locations ... 4 years .. Imagine?

  19. Richard56

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 18:30:09
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    KQ -- thanks for the explanation.

    David -- Didn't mean to leave you off the "All Star" list with KQ and Jeff, but I'm new here and really don't know who is who yet. To compensate, I'd be happy to buy you a beer in the Big Apple during your stay -- especially if you and KQ have the promised showdown (Beers for both!)

    Jim -- I know we didn't get off on the right foot LOL but all I was trying to do when I attempted to paraphrase (since learned incorrectly) our host was to try and end a discussion that kept going on and on. You know the thread

    That said, you appear to have as much knowledge as just about anyone here, and I have no doubt that includes many PCO's. Would love to be the recipient of some of that knowledge both in this thread and others if you want to accept this olive branch.

    Richard

  20. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 19:54:27
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    Richard,

    I have to say I had the same response as spideyjg to this one. I started to think about how I would order a response, and then I saw who had posted it, and I decided against responding based on previous experience. Prior responses from you make me pretty reluctant to put the time and energy into responding to posts from you.

    I just wanted to let you know, since you're extending the olive branch in your recent comments here, to let you know that Jim wasn't the only person who perceived your previous posts that way.

    Since I'm having to limit my time here these days, if I'm going to respond, I'm going to spend what time I do have in places where I think it'll do the most good.

    The short answer to the question you pose in this post is this: different PCOs have different approaches.

    I would, in fact, suspect that different PCOs have different approaches to different residences based on different infestations.

    Really it's not the washing that makes a difference; it's the drying. The heat is what kills the bugs and the eggs. Bagging items that have been debugged does a few things for PCOs:

    1. It knocks down a substantial portion of the population--both bugs and eggs--leaving fewer bugs for the PCO to treat.

    2. The bagging part prevents reinfestation. My experience with bed bugs suggests that they are perfectly happy to harbor in undisturbed fabric items near the bed.

    3. It makes it easier for the PCOs to have access to the places they need to access to treat as needed.

    4. (and probably the PCOs don't care about this, but I do) it saves wear and tear on your clothes. If the clothes and linens aren't bagged, you'll need to dry them again to be sure they're bug free. Many people don't wear all their clothes even one time each in a 3 or 4 month period. Winter clothes get put away for the summer, and summer clothes get put away for the winter.

    My PMPs didn't have me bag anything. In fact, they discouraged me from bagging. I also didn't have to act as bait.

    Every PMP has a different approach, and even those with relatively standard approaches may modify that approach for situations that require it.

  21. Bed Bug Epidemic

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Aug 17 2010 19:55:36
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    Richard- this was really refreshing to read and very kind of you.

  22. KillerQueen

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Aug 18 2010 0:22:21
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    BBcoukHome - 7 hours ago  » 
    LOL, fear not it will not be duelling pistols at dawn, hopefully more of a meeting of mind over some good food and a few hours rest from running around on our feet.

    David

    I'm thinking Sunday the 19th. I'll be your host, and I have a spot in mind already. I'm going to drop Lou a message and see if he could join us.

    Chicago summit seams sold out .. But I'm going to make a call tomorrow and see about staying at another hotel and get all the details. Would you like to do the inspection in my room? lol

  23. bugnut

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Aug 18 2010 6:22:55
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    Speaking of room inspections...

    I would pay money to watch you guys inspect a hotel room! I have a funny feeling you will have some extra specimens to take with you to the summit. Especially if you decide to take in a movie in Times Square.

    KQ = 4 years? really? And the rest of their world was not infested? How did they do that?

  24. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Aug 18 2010 8:09:31
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    I accept Richard. Take lots of character to openly apologize like that.

    Jim

  25. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Aug 18 2010 15:22:19
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    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for the beer offer but I don't drink.

    It looks like the NY Sunday may be an open chat in the afternoon all welcome before the big guns retire to dine and discuss the finer details of bedbugs in more detail. I nominate Lou as technical accuracy monitor, we just need a referee.

    I will of course bring a few copies of the book if anyone wants a signed copy.

    David

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  26. loubugs

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Aug 18 2010 15:46:52
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    I'm staying at a different hotel, too, booked it late; but registered for meeting early.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.

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