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What do the experts think about this article on using Phantom for prevention?

(16 posts)
  1. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 19:29:10
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    http://www.pctonline.com/pct0812-chlorfenapyr-bed-bug-control.aspx

    I saw the prevention label and didn't realize it was about spraying areas BEFORE an infestation.

    Doesn't that seem like overkill?

    They
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  2. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 19:35:04
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    There was also this article

    http://www.pctonline.com/pct1212-bed-bugs-proactive.aspx

    Aren't there other articles/research that indicates that this approach may increase the liklihood of bedbugs becoming resistent to Phantom?

  3. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 20:46:19
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    Thankfully such stupidity is already illegal in the EU, shame it is not the same in the US.

    No good will come of this as any knowledgable biologist will confirm.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  4. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 20:49:35
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    One of the requests we see on this site is "preventative" spraying. As the second article discusses with business travelers, people will pay for "preventative" spraying. I would have 3 years ago (heck, I paid for the laundry detergent).

    I think I finally understand that it might not help the problem and may hurt it in the long run.

  5. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 21:08:06
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    There is no might and absolutely no may.

    All this will do is encourage routine low quality spray treatments at the request of slum lords and will reduce the time it takes till these products don't work.

    I was amazed today to hear an academic act like a child and claim bedbugs are the EPA fault for taking their toys away. It's at time like that I am glad I live in the UK.

    David

  6. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 22:08:11
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    It's my understanding that this kind of thing can lead to pesticide resistance, among other problems.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  7. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu Apr 11 2013 20:04:13
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    Hmmm . . .

    Boy, won't this be a fun topic to kick around.

    Alas, having just arrived home after driving thru all that crap weather on my seemingly B'ham to ALT run, this one will have to wait.

    Just sayin . . .

  8. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 0:02:17
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    OK, since you asked, consider the following and let the games begin:

    > Firstly, note that the author of this article is a representative of the manufacturer of the product being touted for such use as described in the article. However, even still the research data being quoted/published in the article should be accurate as the results therein were attained by Univarsity based research cooperators.

    > Note that at least one data point from the studies quoted was not reported. Hmmm . . .

    > At question is the fundamental viability and soundness of this technique. And, despite that this very question might be asked in a variety of fashions, a fair and reasonable way to post the question at hand might be as follows:

    Are "pre-infestation" applications a sound, viable and effective methodology for bed bug control ?

    Now, if i recall, it seems to me that we beat the legs off this topic in another thread just weeks ago; yes ?

    However, by coincidence I will share a comment/quote that I heard earlier today during my convesation with a well known Industry technical person but please note that I'm paraphrasing here. He said the following:

    "These folks (insert name of "that product" manufacturer here) have done a good job of telling their story."

    Hmmm, what the ef does that mean we might ask, right ?

    So, are these folks pushing this methodology? Yes they are.

    But,

    Does this work? Is it a good idea? Is it entomologically sound? Does it provide benefit? and Is it worth doing ?

    Those are some of the questions we should be asking as well as others.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  9. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 0:12:15
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    Thanks Paul. I was confused since most experts on this site don't recommend pretreating

  10. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 0:15:58
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    OK.

    So you're not confused now ???

    If so, I'm confused as to how my post above would have clarified any such confusion ???

    I think I'll sleep on it, it's been a long day and holy sh#t, it's already 1:15 AM, double fook, I have to wake up early tomorrow !

    pjb

  11. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 1:26:21
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    Articles confused me

  12. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 6:53:21
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    OK.

    Have a moca carmel latte and all will be well.

    pjb

  13. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 7:24:50
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    @TAOT: It appears that you might not be the only stalker on the forum if Mr. Bello knows your drink of choice!

    . . .

    And speaking of stalking . . . I've been wondering lately if DC has any tattoos. You have any confirming photos from either your New York or Chicago, uh, "window washing" adventures"?!?!

    And I think I also remember another thread regarding this subject not so long ago in the distant past (different chemical or name I believe).

    I believe it ended with (at least in my mind) DC totally against it (just in case someone wasn't able to decipher/decode his subtle comment from above):

    bed-bugscouk - 2 days ago  » 
    Thankfully such stupidity is already illegal in the EU, shame it is not the same in the US.
    No good will come of this as any knowledgable biologist will confirm.
    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    And PB saying there might be certain situations where it would be beneficial (multi unit dwellings), etc.

    Apologies if I misunderstood or misstated anything!

  14. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 7:59:14
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    Dear abs,

    Actually, I don't know anyone's favorite drink except for my own and even that's shaky at best.

    Regarding your post above, assuming you copied it correctly it seems you got it about right however, in my view this issue is not as "big a deal" to me and there will be those who disagree.

    I look at the "theoretical math" rather simply as follows:

    + non-infested location at risk of bed bug infestation
    + suitable treatment of all potential bed bug harborages with a suitable product in a suitable fashion
    + eventual subsequent introduction of a bed bug(s)
    = full blown, ground zero type bed bug infestation mitigated

    > Is this illegal in the geography I operate in? Nope.
    > Is this something my clients do? Yup.
    > Do we find this beneficial? Yup.
    > Is this practice going to exasperate bed bug resistance? Negatory ghost rider.

    "Economic Threshold"

    A ways back I posted about IPM and Economic Threshold and explained that "ET" (not the fone home kind but the economic threshold kind) was the level of observed pest presence that initiated control actions and included that this practice was pretty much born in agriculture and llikey do to someone somewhere using what we might call common effin sense or simply just plain old common sense.

    As an example, ET means that we're not going to take $10,000 worth of control actions (and note these could be "any" control actions such as mowing, applying herbicides/weed killers, applying insecticides, plowing, etc) to save just $8,000 worht of say corn or cotton. In short, we're not going to spend or expend efforts that exceed the benefits, right ?

    (And note that this isn't rocket science and even folks in AL and SC, the #49 and #50 states in SAT score, get this. However, I am typing this really slowly for our friends in state #50 right now just in case.)

    BUT, heres the problem. Can we logically and rationally apply this concept in the urban setting?

    It's one thig to say that we're not going to spray our fields until we find over 10 boll weevils per acre in our scout traps because that may be the pre determined ET for that pest however, and "this is big":

    and, everyone answer for yourselves, no cheating and don't look on your neighbor's paper:

    What is the economic threshold for bed bugs in YOUR home ?

    Is it 3, 5, 10, 50 or just one ?

    I'm comfortable with none and that's the way I like it. While I do work in this arena and visit infested account locations of varying degrees with many pinning the needle even on my "gross-o-meter", there's a mental line drawn between my home and the rest of the world which I call a toxic dead zone across which no such pest shall pass and survive. Perhaps one day I'll eventually develop a product and name it Toxic Dead Zone.

    There's my morning rant folks, I'm off to leap tall buildings in a single bound, fight crime, kill bugs and protect the American way.

    For the most part, no one should have to live with bed bugs or other nasty pests, have a great bug free day ! paul b.

  15. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 8:15:40
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    He got my drink wrong.

    Paul's discussion of ET notes that it may not make sense in a home, where there are emotional issues with bugs...throwing a purely cost benefit analysis out the window. Even hotels, the reputational risk is a factor that has more impact than rooms out of service or buying a pco on vacation at the mouse house some Disney themes clothes.

    I'm not overly fond of the American ag model and am vehemently against corporate hog farms which result in environmental damage beyond the value of the food produced. Not to mention what is basically indentured servitude from owner operators in certain states who obtain a seven year loan on structures that have an economic life of seven years. Do not get me started on poultry...

    Not that I have any opinions....

    Back to topic, I thought resistence was documented.

  16. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Apr 12 2013 9:08:17
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    Hog farms, poultry, resistance; wtf ?

    Firstly it's bacon.

    And as far as I'm concerned, we should have bacon flavored candy bars and ice cream. And I hear that starbux will soon have a bacon mocca latte and we can go online and pre-order.

    No one's getting between me and my bacon !

    And poultry ? Chickens, really ?

    BTW;
    a) Why did the chicken cross the road?

    and

    b) Why did the pervert cross the road? (those who saw Bruce Willis in one of those die hard movies are probably already laughing).

    At the end of the day this is about the prevention and control of bed bugs and helping folks to not get bit and such so, let's keep it at that.

    And I apologize to everyone for everything as I'm not sure why I'm in this mood this morning, probably too many hours this week. Plus, we have tix to see Bill Burr tonight in ATL and he's friggin hilarious.

    Have a great day, gotta go ! paul b.


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