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Thermapure licensee and Thermal Remediation

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  1. hadthembefore

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 0:45:05
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    Hello, I am a recovering bed bug survivor. My wife is still paranoid and checks are bed all the time (she works at a transition house which has bedbugs).

    My question is in regards to heat treatment legalities. I am interested in opening my own business specifically geared toward bed bug remediation using heat in Ontario, Can.

    Does thermapure hold a patent on using heat to kill bedbugs? Do you have to become a licensee of that brand? Could I not just by gas-fired direct or indirect heaters of my own?

    What about thermal remediation through Temp-Air. It says it requires no license but does it infringe on Thermapures patents?

    Ideal I would like to simply buy my own equipment and get started helping people properly.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.

    James

  2. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 0:54:58
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    You have to first see what licenses are needed to open a pest remediation business.

    Here in California it is a formidable process.

    Jim

  3. hadthembefore

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 1:06:12
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    I am aware of the protocols to follow in order to become licensed. They are not that formadable up here. I pay they gov't and take some courses, acquire insurance, bonded etc and I am good to go as far as pestcide wise. But, I am hoping to opt for the "green" route, as not other business offers this service.

    Rather than discuss with a lawyer, I was hoping maybe someone out there would be able to shed some light on my issues. I have been completing lots of reseach but have had not luck indetermining whether I can simply purchase my own equipment and begin that way.

    Jim

  4. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 14:04:05
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    The other thing that you should be aware of is that every pest management professional I've spoken to--including those in other countries who have no vested financial interest in soliciting my business--have pointed out that doing thermal remediation right involves as much art as science. There's a definite learning curve to the process.

    The trick to thermal is to raise the temperature of the entire structure at a very specific rate. If the temp goes up too fast, the bugs might just flee the structure (or in multi-unit buildings, simply flee to an adjacent unit.)

    I say this as someone who had my apartment in a multi-unit building successfully treated with thermal.

    Most thermal PMPs talk about not getting it quite right at least a few times early on in the process. Get the structure too hot and you can cause major damage. Don't get every spot in the structure hot enough, and the bugs can hide out there and survive. Raise the temp too fast and they flee and come back. It's a tricky thing to manage.

    That said, the bed bug problem in Toronto is not insubstantial, and since Vikane isn't legal in Canada, there are plenty of bed bug warriors in Ontario who would love to have access to one of the two treatments that can wipe all bugs out in one go if done properly.

    I don't think it would be easy to master the science/art of thermal remediation, but if you could, I'm sure that there's definitely a market. It may be more money up front than you had hoped to invest initially to become a licensee of either Thermapure or TempAir, but I suspect that part of what you'd be paying for is the experience/expertise of the folks who've already invented that particular wheel which might pay off in terms of not having to retreat structures with failures and/or not damaging peoples' buildings/belongings by getting the places too hot.

    (Obviously, I am not a pest management professional.)

  5. BBcoukHome

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 14:40:24
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    Hi,

    I have to agree, part of what you are paying for is the experience of those who have made the mistakes so you don't need to.

    If you are worried about patent issues I would suggest that the first place to start is with a copy of the patents to see exactly what they cover and work out from there.

    As others have said thermal is a steep learning curve and if you are trying to grow a business the last thing you want is for mistakes to cloud your businesses success.

    I would also caution against the building of a business on thermal as a "green" solution as the carbon foot print produced from that much energy makes the high jacking of the environmental benefits a road to nowhere with the advantage of a paddle.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

  6. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 14:41:21
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    hadthembefore - 13 hours ago  » 
    I am aware of the protocols to follow in order to become licensed. They are not that formadable up here. I pay they gov't and take some courses, acquire insurance, bonded etc and I am good to go as far as pestcide wise. But, I am hoping to opt for the "green" route, as not other business offers this service.

    Didn't realize you already had a firm.

    For example in California, starting with nothing, even to open anything pest related is a labyrinth of licenses.

    Looked at the possibilities but it is too much.

    Jim

  7. hadthembefore

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 15:03:27
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    Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

    With that said, I am aware that there will be a learning curve. I understant that there will be a substantial investment. But that is not what information I am trying to tease out of this site.

    I have read thermapures patent and it is like reading legal nonsense. Plus, you need to be a licensee to use "their" method. Not an option for me.

    TempAir does not require any licensee fee....buy their product and you can use it. Same with Thermex, but do you have to pay royalities to thermapure???

    If any business owners use Tempair or Thermex, could you let me know if you are operating without infringing on thermapure's patent to treat with heat. In other words, if you are using TempAir or Thermex or your own equipment, could you please let me know if you need to pay royaltees etc to thermapure.

    Thanks.

  8. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Apr 11 2010 15:32:22
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    In that case, your best bet is probably to hire a lawyer to look into the question for you. I cannot speak to the way these things work in Canada. However, in the US the kinds of specific questions you're asking about legal issues can only be answered by a lawyer, not a layperson--esp. if you are going to be putting money out there based on the advice you get.

  9. elias2000

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Apr 12 2010 11:43:04
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    Hi, everyone. Great discussion. Here's the deal:

    ThermaPure does, in fact, hold the patents and IP rights to the use of heat to kill bed bugs and to do "structural pasteurization." I would direct you to recent press releases issued about court victories for ThermaPure to help drive home that point. In addition, we just received a new patent on using heat to kill bed bugs just a couple of weeks ago. I'm not at liberty to comment on TempAir specifically, but I can tell you that we will continue to aggressively protect our intellectual property rights.

    ThermaPure has licensees in the US and Canada, and we are expanding in both places.

    The other posters are absolutely correct. The use of heat is a science and an art. It's definitely not a do-it-yourself technology. It has to be done in a specific way -- including the proper use of air circulation and filtration.

    It's not so much about fears of raising the temps too quickly because bugs will scamper away. In fact, bed bugs don't appear to exhibit this tendency. The beauty of heat is that it penetrates into the cracks and crevices of structures -- where a lot of bed bugs hide. Pesticides don't perform in the same way.

    Technicians are specially trained to be able to apply the ThermaPureHeat in both residential and commercial applications, including working with fire suppression systems. Technicians are trained to evaluate structures and their contents to ensure that there is no damage to highly heat-sensitive items.

    If you'd like to see more, check out the video at

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Plugin

    Best wishes.

    Alan Elias
    aelias@thermapure.com

  10. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Apr 12 2010 12:03:29
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    You patented a biological fact ie the thermal death of BBs?

    So any use of heat to kill BBs infringes on your IP?

    You gonna kill the Packtite then? What about PCO's using steamers?

    My concept of a portable thermal chamber would get shut down by you guys?

    Jim

  11. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Apr 12 2010 13:03:41
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    Mr Elias

    Could you post links for the new patent and the court decisions?

    I train K9 handlers and would love to make the materials available for our students.

    We talk about treatment approaches during our class.

    I think some of your company's innovations are brilliant.

    Perhaps you could help us understand the basis of your claims.

    I always understood that devices can be patented, but up to this point, I have thought that the use of heat would be in the public domain given that it was known to be used to eradicate bed bugs and other pests for over a century.

    I am hoping that you could explain the rationale behind the courts decisions in terms that we can all understand. I suspect that many consumers don't understand it or even know about the existence of the patents.

    Many PCOs that I speak with are surprised when I point out that there are patents regarding heat equipment and certain techniques.

  12. persona-non-bugga

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 0:43:28
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    hadthembefore,

    Regardless of what's posted in this forum, your best bet is to consult with a Canadian patent attorney. A serious business endeavor requires a better foundation. You need advice from someone that's professionally accountable to you. Even if someone chimes in here and says they're performing heat remediation w/o Thermapure and doing just fine, their situation might differ from yours in some unrevealed crucial way or they might not be aware of their full exposure to problems down the road.

    At the same time, don't base your decision solely on what any manufacturer tells you. They may be the finest company with the finest product. But, neither Thermapure nor any of their competitors have interests that are identical to yours. A manufacturer of heating equipment might not fully disclose to their purchases all legal risks. Speaking hypothetically, they could deem those risks uncertain or immaterial. And, speaking generally -- I'm not speaking about Mr. Elias or Thermapure specifically here -- using the soft, suggestive influence of the internet is much cheaper than funding infringement lawsuits. So, you need professional, objective advice with no financial interest in the decision you make.

    Some issues an attorney could clarify for you:

    - What patent protections, if any, does Thermapure have in Canada (as opposed to just the U.S.)? Jurisdiction/country is crucial in patent law. Answering this question could be the solution to your question.

    - If Thermapure does have patent protection in Canada, would your proposed method fall within the scope of the patented invention? Maybe not. But a qualified attorney would have to read the actual patent and be knowledgeable about Canadian patent law and rulings in order to give you an answer you could rely upon.

    - Give you a larger framework: a road map for possible risks down the road

    Good luck, and I commend your intention to help "people properly." I hope it's supported with enough technical know-how so you can make it a reality. Lord knows we need all the help out here we can get.

  13. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 8:22:25
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    Everything PNB said.

    If one company "owns" one of the BBs biological weaknesses and will not allow people to attack that weakness without a license it does a grave disservice to victims.

    Granted specific gear and processes that attack a weakness can be IP and patented but claiming ownership of a established biological fact seems a stretch. Ya gonna sue the families of the scientist who discovered this weakness 100 years ago for IP infringement.

    What about the building in Canada that built a BB sauna and made the plans available?

    I burned ants with a magnifying glass as a kid so do I owe these people my lunch money?

    Jim

  14. persona-non-bugga

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 10:58:23
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    spideyjg: I agree. Companies and people are well within their rights to protect their intellectual property rights. But, as a consumer, if I get the impression that they're being excessive or frivolous by squeezing out competition via expensive and overreaching lawsuits or even the threat therof, then my opinion of them is going to take a steep fall.

    I would wonder at their pricing and wonder how exploitative their profits are that they could finance such a legal onslaught.

    I would wonder if legal expenses cause them to sacrifice research/training to fine-tune and optimize their product. I would look at the complaints that I've read about the property damage caused by thermal remediation with a more critical eye. Same with complaints that the thermal failed after the first visit. Several years ago, some companies developed heating methods to kill mold and microbes - which require much higher temperatures to eradicate than insects. Then, when the bedbug bonanza hit, these companies switched their marketing accordingly to focus on bedbugs. But I wonder if they've made the necessary adjustments to yield the best outcomes when it comes to bedbug eradication.

    ThermaPure does, in fact, hold the patents and IP rights to the use of heat to kill bed bugs and to do "structural pasteurization."

    This quote from the company is likely oversimplification and overgeneralization. It's the internet; it happens; there's only so much room. This company holds IP rights for the specific claims made in their patents, and those specific claims only. Since thermal remediation for pest infestation has been around since the early 1900s, the general idea of using heat to kill insects must fall under the category of prior art, no? So, I can't believe that the general principle of using heat this way is patentable.

    As a consumer, I want a healthy, competitive marketplace. If people have a new way to use heat to kill bedbugs, I hope innovation and competitive prices aren't squashed by excess litigation.

  15. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 11:35:24
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    Here, here, PNB.

    As any regular readers know, I'm a big fan of thermal since it effectively solved my problem. (My provider was, in fact, a Thermapure licensee; something I feel like I need to say in the interest of full disclosure.)

    However, I just wanted to second and third Personanonbuggy and spideyjg's responses to the Mr. Elias.

    I know just enough about intellectual property law in the United States to know that in some cases, the law requires people who own certain trademarks and copyrights to, at all times, vigorously defend their rights.

    And Mr. Elias's post may be an unfortunate result of that fact.

    However, I think PNB is spot on in terms of that post leaving a bad taste in the mouth of many readers. It certainly did me and, remember, I'm a raving fan of thermal who was very happy with the treatment she received from a Thermapure licensee.

    I don't begrudge any company from making a profit from a process or a chemical that it invents. We live in a capitalist society, and it would be foolish indeed for a company not to protect its investment in research and development. Nevertheless, trying to say, as the post as currently written seems to do, that Thermapure does and should have a monopoly on using heat to kill bed bugs in absolutely any context is not doing that and isn't good PR for the company. That would mean that in the days before Packtite, technically they could come after people who tried to use the old librarian method for baking books on low heat in ovens, or people who put things in black bags and put them in cars to bake. Since several of those methods are common folk wisdom, I'm hoping that Mr. Elias simply misspoke.

    If what he meant to say was that Thermapure had patented the use of a specific method of heating a structure to kill bed bugs, well then, great and fine. As they should. I'm sure it took a lot of trial and error to get it right, and even if it didn't, it's a great method, and the people or company who figured out how to help bed bug sufferers does deserve to profit from that. That is, after all, why copyright and patent law exists: it was written into the US Constitution to encourage innovation and allow innovators to protect that investment long enough to make money from it.

    But if he meant to say that Thermapure owns the intellectual property to absolutely every method of using heat to kill bed bugs--whether in a structure or in a suitcase-sized cooker or your own driveway--then I think the company is guilty of the worst kind of hubris. It may be within the letter of the law (I'm not a lawyer, so I certainly don't know), but is certainly not within the spirit of it, and saying so may well make enough people here angry that it won't end up reflecting well on the company and its licensees.

    If it's a matter of simply having misspoken, I'd really like to know that. Unfortunately, if it's a matter of the law requiring a vigorous defense of the copyright to the extent that it requires attacking other technologies, well, Mr. Elias may simply be doing what the law requires to protect his company, but that's just as sad as it being hubris.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 14:27:43
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    I have PM'd Mr. Elias, asking him to go into more detail on the actual patents.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  17. spideyjg

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 15:02:17
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    I'm gonna partner up with Cilecto and patent "Traumatic impact" as our IP. Anyone that physically damages an insect causing it's death will be infringing.

    Beware all you shoe wielders.

    Jim

  18. hadthembefore

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 16:54:20
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    Now this is the discussion I was hoping for. Very solid insights from all posters.

    I was doing my DD (reading the patent, speaking with Temp-air etc) and was still feeling there was a grey area. I will continue with my research and let you know what my laywer says for everyone to know.

    Jim

  19. BBcoukHome

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 18:39:55
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    Fear not bug fans I have no plans to patent only working on bed bugs as the first, LOL.

    Joking aside development does cost money and patents are also rather expensive, I am currently paying off a few of my own.

    I think the line in the sand is drawn at what is reasonable to claim and what is the novel step in what you bring to the table. The rest is all down to having a sensible model to commercialise the product, there is no point in charging massive sums for something that people can make or do themselves or that is what people will do.

    After all a patent does not stop you from doing it yourself if you can make it, it does however stop someone else making and selling something similar to what you have paid to develop and protect. In some cases this does include the processes and principles themselves if they are to be offered as products or services.

    I was once asked by a relative why I patented something and did not just give it to the world as a gift. All I could answer was that a good friend of mine who had tried that once was still waiting for the world to gift him back the development costs so he could hopefully get his house back from the bank.

    I have not had time to read the patents thoroughly myself but like with all of these types of documents they are not the easiest of reads and despite our best attempts to be clear and accurate legal language is sometimes at odds with scientific or practical meaning. Last year I had a query on one application about a word they had not heard of before and although it is practically a whole area of biology it is not defined in legal terms.

    If anyone is interested I once printed many of the bed bug patents dating back to the late 1800's if you have insomnia I can highly recommend them although world chronologically backwards as some of the 2005 ones have such wild claims they are side splitting and seem to fall into the nasty category of speculative patents.

    David

  20. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 23:17:01
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  21. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 23:23:28
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  22. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 13 2010 23:28:50
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  23. spideyjg

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    Thanks Doug. When I get the time I'll see if my concept, which isn't available anywhere I know of, may fall under this patent.

    Jim

  24. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Apr 27 2010 12:13:51
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    Interestingly, I got an email from TEMP-AIR yesterday telling me they have a trade mark on the term "thermal remediation."

    So apparently buggyinsocal (who used ThermaPure) had thermal treatment, but not thermal remediation.

    Details on the trade mark here.

  25. elias2000

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Thu May 6 2010 10:56:36
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    Sorry I've been slow in responding to the discussion. ThermaPure holds a number of patents and trademarks involving the use of heat to kill bed bugs. I want to be clear that a company using heat alone to kill bed bugs may not be violating the patents. But, entities using heat, air flow and filtration -- very likely are -- and I can assure you we're paying attention for that. We have been researching heat technology (both in the lab and in the field) for many years, including termites, environmental applications, like mold abatement (building drying and sanitizing) using heat, as well as in killing bed bugs.

    Here is a list of our patents and registered trademarks. I'll also include a link to a recent press release about a patent/trade secret case we recently won.

    (1) US 6,892,491 B2 – System and Method for Removing Harmful Biological and Organic Substances from an Enclosure – May 17, 2005, Hedman
    (2) US 6,327,812 B1 – Method of Killing Organisms and Removal of Toxins in Enclosures – December 11, 2001 – Hedman et al
    (3) US 7,690,148 – Method of Treating for Pests – April 6, 2010, Hedman.

    SELECT COPYRIGHTS AND TRADEMARKS (We have approximately 30)
    I. Kill Bed Bugs with Heat®
    II. Kill Insects with Heat™
    III Kill Bugs with Heat™
    IV. Kill Termites with Heat™
    V. Thermal Treatment™

    http://www.1888pressrelease.com/thermapure/tpe-associates/court-stops-team-too-from-using-tpe-associates-thermapure-r-pr-192127.html

    Hope this helps. Bottom line is that we have a terrible and growing bed bug epidemic in the US, and heat is a proven -- green -- technology that is definitely part of the solution.

  26. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Thu May 6 2010 13:23:49
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    Mr Elias,

    Thank you for posting the additional information.

    I didn't realize that the term Thermal Treatment was trademarked.

    Is there a preferred generic term that can be used to refer the process that does not infringe on your trademarked terms?

  27. Nobugsonme

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    elias2000 - 2 hours ago  » 
    V. Thermal Treatment™

    Elias, thanks for clarifying your company's situation.

    Note to bedbuggers trying to keep up:

    Thermal Remediation is a trademarked term of Temp-Air.
    Thermal Treatment is a trademarked term of ThermaPure.

  28. labugman

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 1 2010 23:08:46
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    The people at Thermapure Heat are not telling the full story. The patent to kill insects such as bed bugs is a patent developed by a gentleman named "Forbes." That patent has expired and is in the public domain. This means that anyone can research the patent follow the steps of the patent and kill any little insect they want and they owe Thermapure nothing.

    David Hedman has some further patents that expand on the Forbes patent, but the Forbes patent is well researched, tried many times and proven effective and best of all it is free.

    Here is a free hint from what I can tell reading the Forbes patent and the further Hedman patents. When killing insects with heat do NOT use any type of filtration, use only heat, fans and hand-held temperature sensing devices.

    One more piece of advice, save the license fee and pay up your children's college tuition.

  29. Nobugsonme

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    Please follow labugman's discussion to this thread.

  30. 123bugs

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    I really just want to know which METHOD is better - Temp-Air, or Thermapure - assuming you have an experienced person/company doing it. Each says theirs is a better process. It is very confusing for consumers. The cost of either method is so prohibitive you just have to get it right the first time.

    (Nobugs - hope this isn't considered off-topic for this thread? Tx)

  31. labugman

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    First of all both methods reach temperature that is sufficient to kill bed bugs. Thermapure has a video of how they reach temperature and I can not conceive of a more amateurish and dangerous method to heat a building. Those propane heaters that Thermapure use have an outlet temperature in excess of 300F. Anything in the direct heat of these Thermapure heaters is going to be damaged. That Thermapure video is scary.

  32. Nobugsonme

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    123bugs - 6 hours ago  » 
    I really just want to know which METHOD is better - Temp-Air, or Thermapure - assuming you have an experienced person/company doing it. Each says theirs is a better process. It is very confusing for consumers. The cost of either method is so prohibitive you just have to get it right the first time.
    (Nobugs - hope this isn't considered off-topic for this thread? Tx)

    Hi 123bugs,

    Since this thread is long and entirely concerned with the licensing issue, I think you should really start a new thread. You can copy and paste your question to it.

    Otherwise, this thread is going to get confusing, I think. And anyway, you will reach interested people by having a new thread -- and they won't have to wade through this discussion to get there.

  33. labugman

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    Elias 2000 has yet to respond to the validity of the patents he is bragging about in his earlier posts. The '812 patent that Thermapure has been licensing around the country and suing contractors over has many detractors. Some experts say the '812 patent is dangerous, some say it is ineffective and some say that following the methods in the patent will leave the property in a worse condition so far as the safety of the residents than if nothing had been done. These criticisms are a matter of public record and these criticisms were made under oath..

    The most vociferous critic of the '812 patent is none other than the very patent holder of the '812 patent, David Hedman. Yet he is perusing lawsuits around the country against individuals and companies for violating the '812 patent that he has denounced under oath to be ineffective and dangerous. Only in America can this kind of legal intimidation take place.

    For those that want to see, look up the two patents, the second patent was filed within months of the issue of the '812 patent. It appears that somehow Hedman realized that his '812 patent was nonsense so he went and applied for a second patent. In spite of David Hedman's statements under oath that his '812 patent is dangerous and ineffective he has sold licenses for the use of the patent and continues to sue people for infringing on a useless and dangerous patent.

    (1) US 6,892,491 B2 – System and Method for Removing Harmful Biological and Organic Substances from an Enclosure – May 17, 2005,

    (2) US 6,327,812 B1 – Method of Killing Organisms and Removal of Toxins in Enclosures – December 11, 2001 – Hedman et al

    Read these two patents and you will get an education.

  34. Xcel

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 8 2010 20:30:47
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    labugman,

    Since you are familiar with specific court testimony and by the obvious axe you have to grind, sounds to me like you were sued by thermapure. How did it turn out?

  35. labugman

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 9 2010 7:19:20
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    I am not familiar with court testimony nor have I ever been sued by Thermapure or David Hedman. The statements that I have made about Thermapure and David Hedman are a matter of public record. I am presenting the other side of the deceptive business practices that have been marketed on this site. The number of honest people that have been caught up in the Thermapure web is tragic. If I can help someone from financial ruin at the hands of David Hedman, I feel obligated.

    Again, this axe to grind is all public record, it is not my opinion. They are far worse than any thing I have exposed.

  36. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 9 2010 10:26:45
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    LABugman

    Can you provide some links or information that will allow us to pull up the cases and news stories.

    We would love to read the source materials.

    It sounds like you have been doing some research.

  37. labugman

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 9 2010 11:41:50
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    Hi Doug Summers,

    Required reading is the '812 patent. This is an affirmation from the inventor under oath and with penalty of fine and imprisonment that the claims in the patent are valid and confirmed. David Hedman got that patent in 2002. This is the patent that David Hedman has sold licenses to and is presently suing about a dozen individuals and companies.

    In the same year, 2002 David Hedman applied for another patent which later became the "491 patent and again it was necessary for David Hedman to again swear an oath and under severe penalty to the US patent office that his claims are true. In the '491 patent Hedman claimed that the '812 patent was ineffective and unsafe and therefore it was necessary for the US patent office to issue his new patent.

    Here are a few quotes sworn under oath that claim the '812 patent is worthless. "However the method disclosed in the Forbes and Hedman Patents ('812) are quite complex... also this method using the described temperatures is not effective... It is well known that heated air causes certain molds, fungi etc. to sporulate... thus dispersing harmful biological agents and possibly contaminating the structure to a greater degree than originally presented. The use of positive pressure described in the Forbes and Hedman ('812) further the likelihood that biological contaminants will be dispersed throughout the structure...

    Now I ask you, how can someone in good conscience sell a license to use a patent that he has already sworn under oath to be ineffective and dangerous. Well about a dozen individual and companies have to hire lawyers at great expense to get these facts before a jury. If the defendants win they get no money, they get to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend a frivolous claim that they violated an ineffective and worthless patent. Hedman and his lawyers know that some of the defendants are just going to pay to make this lawsuit go away. In other countries the loser would pay and in that event there would be no lawsuit.

  38. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 9 2010 15:13:17
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    Thanks

    I had read the text of the more recent patents after Mr. Elias pointed them out, but I didn't know about the background with Forbes.

  39. labugman

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    Sat Oct 9 2010 16:02:11
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    Follow the Forbes patent, do NOT use filtration of any kind (it is useless anyway) and go get those bed bugs.

    The AGA or American Gas Association disagrees with Elias 2000 about direct fired propane burners and the water content. For every 100,000 BTUs of gas burned, one of the byproducts of said combustion is a gallon of water vapor. So according to Elias when 3,000,000 BTUs of propane heat are needed for a residence, that combustion introduces 30 gallons of water vapor per hour. If the project takes six hours the Thermapure method as seen on their video introduces 180 gallons of water into the dwelling. Elias 2000 you are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts, and those are the facts.

    Three million BTUs of heat in one building, no wonder they burned down a house.

  40. labugman

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Oct 11 2010 10:08:27
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    Here is a newspaper account of the fire cause by Thermapure.

    Fumigation explosion destroys home
    By JASON SCHULTZ
    Sentinel staff writer
    SOQUEL — Firefighters say a propane tank being used to fumigate a hillside house exploded Monday afternoon, demolishing a family’s home.
    The Savoca family was not at their house on the 7000 block of Oak Ridge Road Monday because a pest control company had covered the house with a tent. Capt. Drew Johnston of the Aptos-La Selva Fire Department said the workers were using several propane tanks to pump hot air into the home to dry out termites.
    Central Fire Chief Bruce Clark said one of those tanks exploded, which caused four or five other tanks to explode.
    The resulting fireball consumed the house, leaving nothing but an ash-covered cement slab and a pile of black wooden pillars. The fire was so hot and so fast that it rushed up a hill and devoured 3 acres of trees and brush. Fire crews from the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, Central Fire, Aptos-La Selva Fire and inmate crews from the California Youth Authority were able to control the blaze in about two hours. No other homes were damaged.
    John Quirk, who rents a trailer nearby, said he heard an explosion, and when he looked out the window saw flames and smoke. Three men from the pest control company were trying to put out the flames. He said he saw that the other propane tanks were about to explode, so he told the men to get out of there.
    None of the neighbors knew the name of the company doing the work, and Clark said the men had left by the time fire crews arrived.
    Next-door neighbor George Dymesich said, "It went so fast. It just kept exploding."
    The fire crews responded quickly but the scene was pandemonium. Fire engines barely squeezed through the winding, one-lane mountain road. A sheriff’s deputy stopped a long line of cars. A neighbor was frantically trying to get to three horses he had stabled on a nearby property. Clark said the horses were saved.
    At the site, a blackened crater of wreckage stood where the house had once been home to Charles Savoca, his wife and three children. Next door neighbor Cheryl Dymesich said her husband, George, called Charles Savoca to tell him about the fire.
    Savoca told KGO radio that he hired a company that specializes in nonchemical treatment of termites and carpenter ants. He said they use the propane tanks to raise the temperature in the house to 160 degrees and the core temperature of the wood to 130 degrees.
    "I hired them thinking they had the expertise to do this without burning my house down," Savoca said.
    "They sure exterminated my house," he said.
    A little piece of the blue tarpaulin tent that had covered the home rested on the driveway, covered in black soot. A child’s trampoline was half burned. A nearby fire truck leaked a pool of fluffy white foam onto the road.
    The fire raged up a hillside behind the home and jumped Oak Ridge Road. The hillside was charred, with little flames smoldering everywhere and thick smoke. Overhead five air tankers and three helicopters circled. Tankers dropped flame retardant on the hillside while a smaller helicopter dropped hundreds of gallons of water onto the remains of the home.
    Two firefighters were treated for heat exhaustion at the scene.
    Neighbor Marsha Garrett said getting to fires on her road has been troublesome. She said Oak Ridge Road didn’t have a name until about a decade ago when firefighters had trouble finding a home because the isolated road had no name and the addresses were listed as being on nearby Porter Gulch Road.
    Contact Jason Schultz at jschultz@santa-cruz.com.

  41. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Tue Oct 12 2010 2:45:16
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    labugman,

    Please include LINKS to anything you want to refer to online, but please do NOT include the full text of articles, since it violates copyright. You may include a link and a quotation.

    Also, please do NOT post nearly identical posts to multiple threads as you did in this case. You simply can't have the same conversation in multiple threads at the same time.

    Thanks!


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