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Thermal remediation versus Cryonite

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  1. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 15:33:38
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    I have been perusing the Internet lately and reading a lot of information that I consider misleading in regard to the effectiveness of Cryonite as compared to heat treatments or thermal remediation. I keep reading that heat damages everything. That thermal remediation spreads bed bugs. I'm not going to name any names but if I tell you their name it would probably ring a bell. I've been using heat for over six years now as well as conventional pesticide applications and canines to eliminate bed bugs from all different types of properties and places within the tri-state area. I have done at least at the very least 20 units that previously had Cryonite treatments that either did not eliminate the infestation or spread it to surrounding units. I'm sure there are plenty of people that can attest to this fact. If thermal remediation is done by an experienced company with an experienced crew and the proper precautions are taken with heat sensitive items there will be no damage done. If you use the heat treatment and it's an early infestation, no surrounding units are infested, and it hasn't been chemically treated several times thermal remediation has an effective rate of about 99%. Heat is an attractant. I have videos of bed bugs moving towards the heaters during the treatment process. On the other hand with Cryonite even with an experienced handler there are still going to be a lot of areas that are going to be missed and as a result a lot of bed bugs will survive. Just as an example I can take 7 to 10 Bed Bugs Pl. them under a single sheet of paper and apply Cryonite for 20 minutes. Once that sheet of paper is removed every single bedbug that was underneath will still be alive. This is because Cryonite has to impinge directly on the insect to kill it. Now we go back to that sheet of paper with the to 10 bed bugs and take a blow dryer and run it at high heat for 10 minutes every insect underneath that sheet of paper will be dead. That's because heat is convective (thank you David) and the energy transfers through the paper into the insect killing it. You're not going to get that with Cryonite. So tell me how are you going to thoroughly treat a box spring, or a couch, a stuffed chair, or underneath the edges of a carpet successfully with Cryonite. You can't! But I can take any of those items apply heat and eliminate the insects 100%. I can go out and purchase a Cryonite tool actually it's leased by the month for about $200 and then I can go down to the soda supply and get a canister of CO2 and voilà I am in the Cryonite business. We have never done that. The reason we have never done that is because it is an ineffective treatment that I say borderlines on fraud because a lot of companies presented as a stand-alone bedbug remedy. It's not and if people are telling you that they're lying. If people don't know what they're doing with heat then again it will be ineffective. That's why we always say get a warranty. No matter whether you're doing a chemical, a heat, or Cryonite get a warranty. If the company will not provide a warranty get another company. Thank you for your time.

    Bed Bug and Thermal Remediation Specialist
    Please email me directly for support. Thank you.
  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 15:54:38
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    Jeff,

    You have mixed up conductive and convective in your piece of paper example.

    One of the essential steps in understanding heat methods is to apply the correct type of heat source which means convective.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    PS a little punctuation for ease of reading would not go a miss.

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  3. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 16:02:54
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    David it's hard to stand up to the critical eye of a genius. I will change it over to convective as you are correct of course. As far as punctuation I have a pinched nerve so all writing is being done through a verbal program.

  4. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 16:16:41
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    Hi Jeff,

    I can sympathize on the voice recognition software issues!

    Anyway, if you see instances where people are saying incorrect things about heat on this site, please do respond to them -- even if it's with a link to your post above.

    This site thrives on open dialogue and when there's disagreement, I think it helps consumers in the end.

    As for heat-- could part of the issue be that heat treatment is done in such different ways by different companies? TempAir vs. ThermaPure Heat vs. I-don't-know-what-other-systems (including some that people come up with on their own and market professionally)?

    If some of these work better than others, that fact and the reasons why they're not all equal do, I think, get lost en route to consumers.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  5. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 16:33:56
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    You are correct and that's something that I've overlooked. I was trained under the Temp – Air method and we continue with that method to this day. We have made some minor modifications due to the fact that we deal with primarily multi family residences, and we don't always know what's going on next door. Our temperatures typically do not go up above 140°. Our cook times, and by cook time I mean the time we spend at temperature, is typically four hours. Now on an empty unit, as long as the wall void temperatures are good, we can reduce that time period to two or three.
    Just as when we are dealing with a unit that has a lot of possessions we increase that cook time to ensure everything gets treated. We also typically raise the temperature at a moderate rate so that we achieve our temperatures within two hours. We also heat different construction materials for different lengths of time. If we are dealing with a condominium made out of concrete our cook time may increase from 4 to 6 or even 8 hours. When we are dealing with an apartment that has an exposed brick face wall we typically steam that while we are bringing the unit up to temperature. So yes everybody has their own methods but results speak for themselves. As I review a lot of the posts that have been placed here about us, well I think they speak for themselves. So to reiterate I would suggest no matter who you use it is always a good idea to get some references and a written warranty.

  6. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 16:50:47
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    Dear Jeff,

    I'm sorry but you're only half right.

    That's because the technique you're criticizing above is likely twice as bad as you're representing.

    Would I recommend that methodology ?
    Nope. But, if so, only to meet a very narrow set of logistical parameters.

    Is it a good deal for a pro to consider ? Negatory Ghost Rider.

    Additionally, I think our friend DC refers to it as cries-all-nite.

    Just sayin . . .

    pjb

  7. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 17:01:06
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    Hi Paul,

    No cry-all-night is KQ's line.

    I just suggest that use it only for its original patented application as filed by Linde which is the inline freezing of chocolate cakes. Sadly the large US company with the current marketing rights can't help themselves and keep peddling the same old story.

    It's a sad reflection on modern business ethics.

    David

  8. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu May 30 2013 21:19:24
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    Wait a minute David, you siad business and ethics in the same sentence !

    KQ coined that phrase you say ? OK.

    thanks ! pjb

  9. djames1921

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri May 31 2013 8:03:05
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    We live in a social media, internet search mad world, an a lot of the times it is a good thing. Sometimes however it causes confusion. I think one issue here that Jeff brings up is bad reviews about whole room thermal treatments in comparison to the small amounts of info either pro or con about cryonite. I think a factor here is the popularity and widespread use of whole room thermal treatments in comparison to the use of cryonite through the years. This will lead to a much larger number of reviews in general for whole room treatments and of course the chance for a bad review or experience to occur and be publicized when compared to cryonite which can't generate that many good or bad reviews as it just isn't used that much. So a consumer may see the 1 in one thousand complaints for one service compared to not seeing anything but manufacturer generated fake reviews for the other. A savvy consumer will also look at how many pest companies offer thermal compared to cryonite, the proof is in the pudding. I also do not know of a single company in the US that only does cryonite treatments for bed bugs, meaning they don't do any other pest control, just go around using cryonite to treat for bed bugs. While in every state their are companies that just do whole house thermal treatments.

  10. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri May 31 2013 9:44:09
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    David James makes some good points.

    My impression on this site is that many here have spoken critically of Cryonite, and I don't think any expert here has praised it.

    On the other hand, lots of consumers here have spoken highly of structural heating/thermal treatments, and experts have often concurred that this approach can be very valuable.

    Where there are critical comments about heat/thermal here, I am always mindful as I noted above of the wide variety of approaches included under the umbrella, including inexperienced "pros" setting up their own systems.

    Another issue that hasn't been brought up, is that lots of people here who have the treatment see bed bugs after heat treatment. We've been told that this is common at least with some methods of structural heating. So this raises issues: did your bed bugs survive heat temporarily (which service providers have told us is normal) or did your heat treatment fail? Or did you get re-exposed?

    I think this situation can potentially be managed (eg with monitors, perhaps with service providers applying chemical or dust following heat, as we hear some do). However, since the procedure is marketed as a one-time treatment, people can be very surprised and distressed to find bed bugs still present, and often it appears they may not have not been fully briefed on this by the service provider, nor fully informed about how the situation will be controlled by the service provider.

  11. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri May 31 2013 10:28:15
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    There are few cases where you are going to see bed bugs after a thermal remediation. One is you have missed an area and thus your treatment has failed and you need to redo it. Another is someone has brought something with them that was infested and then returned with that item. We advise our clients to bring nothing with them except for the clothing on their back and that clothing has to be put through a dryer prior to leaving. And in some cases though not often there are some bed bugs that have not been killed by the heat but are severely damaged and die within several hours. We always do our treatment combined with foodgrade diatomaceous earth. If we don't know what's going on next-door a lot of times we will drill and pump that into the walls as it works synergistically with the heat. But it all boils down to is making sure that there is a warranty in place that specifically outlines what is our responsibility if there is a sighting after treatment. 99% of the time we reheat the unit and that is spelled out in our agreement. If we do a truck thermal and are just heating the contents of an apartment
    we run a canine in the place that they are moving into. If that is found to be clear we offer a 30 day warranty if it's an apartment or 60 days if it's a detached home. In some instances if surrounding units are known to be infested we will offer a warrantee that provides a chemical retreat. Although in most cases where we know surrounding units are infested we do not recommend a thermal at all. Sometimes it's necessary if there is a cancer survivor, someone too ill to be around pesticides, or a pregnancy. Again it's important to have a written warranty in place that outline specifically is required of both the homeowner and the treatment company.

  12. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sat Jun 1 2013 22:15:14
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    Dear Folks,

    Regarding this topic, I'm sharing an e-mail that was received earlier today. You will note that I've redacted certain information as this seemed like the right thing to do.

    Here's the e-mail received:

    Paul, Need a recommendation on website that I can purchase bed bug covers? Need to purchase several mattress and box spring covers today if possible. By the way, we had a property location exterminated on XX-XX-XX by xxxxxxxxxx and I would not recommend them again. The bugs returned within one week. Fortunately, they have a xx day warranty, but I do not believe their freeze treatment worked. Thanks, Xxxxx

    Please note:

    > We need to remember that bed bugs are good at cold but not good at heat !

    > The flash freeze technique is a niche product at best and in my view there are superior alternative methods.

    > And, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is !

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  13. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sat Jun 1 2013 22:28:11
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    And thermal was probably priced the same....

  14. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sat Jun 1 2013 22:36:28
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    A tad more but well within reason for what was needed.

    : )

    pjb

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Jun 2 2013 0:41:18
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    I can't recall anyone here praising Cryonite. So posting in the positive reviews would probably be less time consuming.

  16. jeffklein

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Jun 3 2013 13:19:01
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    Actually the price on thermal remediation or heat treatment as everybody calls it, has come down because there are so many players in the field now. You can probably get a thermal done without a warranty for about a dollar per square foot. I'm sure most companies have a minimum but I know that we've come close on our pricing to that of chemical programs as well as Cryonite programs. During the month of May we had a special where we charged a 1.25 per square foot and that included a 30 day warranty plus a free canine follow-up. Of course it had its restrictions – we wouldn't do any units in New York City due to the tolls and tickets, they had to be reasonably uncluttered, and they had to be under 10 stories. Most of the chemical programs I see priced out there run anywhere between $.75 a square foot to two dollars a square foot. So if you take into account all the other things that you have to do in regard to a chemical program as far as preparation the thermals actually become more cost-effective.

  17. mandia

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu Jun 27 2013 17:32:49
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    We are considering heat treatment and have a some questions for you experts...

    The area that is in question in our basement MIL apartment. About 3 years ago we had guests that were eaten alive by what we think was bedbugs now. No human has occupied the space since, however our cat was allowed down there on numerous occasions and we believe the cat may have fed them enough to keep them going. We had a bed bug dog inspection which indicated there were still live bugs, but we have not seen anything as no one occupies the area. We tried a BB Alert Active monitor but didn't catch a thing.

    Long story short, we would like to utilize the space and want to do some remodeling (new carpet, kitchen updates etc). We are thinking we should treat the area just to be safe but if we have a heat treatment, will it drive the bed bugs up to the main living area? Should we throw out the furniture take out the carpet before doing the treatment or after. Any recommendations would be helpful.

    Thanks in advance!

    Mandi


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