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The Great Isolation Non-Debate?

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  1. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 8:45:25
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    INTRO: This site is terrific and NoBugs should be enshrined on the Mt Rushmore of BedBuggery. That said, my recent experience and extensive reading suggests that the 3 most important elements in fighting bedbugs may be summarized by the acronym DIE (Dust, Isolate, Encase). Yet this site generally frowns on isolation and suggests there are some good reasons not to encase. I will present my logic below and welcome the pros and others to tell me why I'm wrong.

    BACKGROUND: There are 3 main benefits to encasing assuming no rips/tears in the fabric: (1) Provide some "relative" peace of mind and a better night's sleep (2) Prevent bugs in the mattress and box spring from potentially scattering to other locations due to overcrowding and/or aggressive mating males (3) Provide 100% kill as opposed to other treatments as many experts indicate that it is difficult to achieve 100% eradication of bugs in these areas using other means..... Leaving cost aside, the argument against encasing is that bugs will look to nest in other places making it more difficult and time-consuming to kill them. Regarding isolation, the argument is that bugs might be repelled and/or alerted via alarm pheremones, avoiding the bed and scattering.

    ANALYSIS: (1) If you place a ring of insecticide dust like Cimexa (not DE) around the bed, the bugs will have to cross it on the way in and out and should die no matter where they end up nesting (2) Regarding alarm pheremones, the Rutgers study showed interceptors to be effective over a 10 week period and work by PCO Leon Weiler indicates more or less the same for glue traps. It appears pheremone alert is not an issue when bugs are trapped in these ways. I'm not aware of any studies using mineral oil or water but I suspect bugs on the verge of drowning would indeed alert based on study where sand was dumped on their back. (3) There are isolation setups where we can have our cake and eat it too. For example, Eco Keeper makes a combination monitor/trap which is piece of cardboard featuring harborage spots around 2 of the 4 sides and a ring of glue around the outer top of the cardboard. If the bug is repelled by the glue, it might still decide to stay in one of the harborage spots; if it decides to get out of Dodge, it will encounter the killer dust again. A ClimbUp Interceptor also fits nicely in the center of Eco Keeper cardboard to provide a 3rd level of security. You could even add a 4th layer by placing further up the leg the Teflon barrier tape tested by Rutgers' Chang Lu.

    CONCLUSION: If my logic is correct, other than cost, there is no compelling reason(s) not to encase and isolate in the manner I described. Some possible objections: (1) Bugs might try the kamikaze ceiling drop - scary but appears to be a rare phenomenon. (2) Health risk of dust ring - in case of Cimexa, the instructions state it's OK to treat mattress using product so I presume placing it on floor for a relatively brief time should be OK as well (3) Takes more time - maybe, maybe not but most people imo would be OK if it took a week longer in return for sleeping without being bitten (4) Need to verify continued BB presence - the ECO Keeper harborage and glue should be sufficient (5) Cost - If your mattress is in good shape (no rips/tears), you could save money by only encasing the box spring. But yeah, cost is higher especially if more than 1 bedroom needs to be protected. But you may be able to come out ahead if you do not need to hire a PCO!

    In the interest of brevity, I've left out a lot of stuff which I'm sure will be covered if any kind of discussion takes place. OK everyone, let me have it! Paging David...paging David.

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 8:59:15
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    Hi,

    Although this is your post number 1 can I ask if you have been around before?

    I ask mainly because your use of the editors for this site is very good and I would just like to be clear who I am communicating with, especially since the name you have chosen seems to be designed to engage with me.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  3. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 10:44:46
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    Hi David,

    No I only discovered this site when I found I had bedbugs in my apartment 3 months ago. I voraciously read everything I could on the subject. Bedbugger.com is wonderful and you have provided very useful insights on a variety of subjects. The reason I decided to post is that I believe this site creates a false equivalency on the very important topic at hand. You are really the only person who advocates against encasing (JulesNoise.com for different reason) and the site makes it seem like the debate is fairly balanced, in part, because you post so frequently. The result is IMHO many readers try your approach and needlessly prolong their agony.

    Some background: I live in a large 1 bedroom apartment in a 100 year-old building in NYC (all hardwood floors except kitchen and bathroom). It took me a while to realize I had a BB problem because the bugs were biting me exclusively on lower calf/ankles (hairless there and used loose sheets). I dismissed the itching as some kind of temporary rash. When the bugs spread, I noticed 2-4 of them in the bathroom when I flicked on the light in the early morning hours. I finally wised up, killed one of them, and compared it to internet photos and it was a "dead" ringer. The landlord would have paid for the PCO but I decided to go it alone initially because of concern over pesticide health risk. After wading through options, I settled on the DIE strategy. I placed Cimexa dust in a ring around the bed and around the perimeter of the entire apartment (except kitchen) using a handheld bellows. I encased the mattress and box spring using Safe Rest. I isolated the bed using TrapperMax glue boards (edges cut off)/ClimbUp interceptors/teflon barrier tape together under each leg. I did a few other things but those I regard as very minor toward the solution. I tried to stay primarily in the bedroom area during the treatment period. It took about 3 weeks to clear a moderate infestation.

    Everybody's situation is different: house vs. apartment, carpet vs. wood vs tile, presence of pets and children, and so on. I definitely think PCOs are the way to go in most cases largely because most people are frazzled by the problem and don't have the time to properly research the options. And time is of the essence. I worked as a general management consultant for a large firm where I had to come up to speed on particular industries in a very brief period. I had the training and experience and could apply it to the bedbug situation. I am compiling a concise list which I will post here later of things I believe bedbug victims should know at the outset so they don't have to spend a lot of time reading about it.

  4. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 13:05:17
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    Hi,

    OK well I will have to take your word but here we go.

    1 You state that bedbugs living inside the mattress are trapped - one of the most common fallacies is that bedbugs live inside mattresses. They don't dust mites do that. Bedbugs tend to prefer stable surfaces.

    2 Dispersal - yes the lack of a piping overhang removes the thygmotaxic response (Kells) and removes some key harbourages (Naylor) which can cause bedbugs to scatter. These are both known facts so encasing does disperse and dispersing in terms of treatment can only be a bad thing.

    3 Aggressive mating - really are we still debating the inaccurate (Jones) hypothesis when the more accurate experimental data (Naylor) has proven the flaws in anthropomorphizing human behaviour onto insects.

    4 Killing power - well I will happily put you in touch with someone I was helping recently who only had bites when she slept under the duvet. When she slept on top of the duvet the extra layer meant that the bedbugs were not able to feed through the encasement and keep alive with a regular source of food. Its a shame the PCO did not spend that extra few minutes to do a good job as she was still getting regular bites in Aug and the encasement went on in April.

    We are also told that encasement's are essential to treating bedbugs, the fact I don't use them is proof of home fallacious that line is.

    So all said and done you have managed to argue your position as one that will disperse bedbugs, may not kill them (if they feed through), may fail due to rips and tears, costs people a lot of money for a product known for ripping and tearing and yet offers no value over a simple dust mite encasement although even that will result in dispersal.

    Now the reality here is that you have mixed up many different aspects of what I say and have come out with something that actually proved my point.

    Encasement I don't recommend it because of the power to disperse and the lack of value it brings to the equation. If you are arguing that it’s better to bag up than to do a professional job with tape, steam or even your fingers to eradicate bedbugs then feel free to continue. It’s a nasty market full of people who pay endorsements for opinions and data that is dubious at best.

    Isolate I don't recommend this for one very simple and clear reason. If you want to kill something quickly its best to try and do so in its natural environment. If you were to go duck hunting would you not arrive at the pond before the ducks and wait for them to settle or would you try and make them run a gauntlet before taking aim.

    The combination of your E and I will only serve to disperse the bedbugs away from the initial harbourage where they may take both longer time and more chemicals to resolve an infestation. Now the only way I can see that one working would be if you wanted to either make more service visits or you wanted to sell more product.

    Dust well we don't have Cimexa in the UK but equally you don't have aerosol DE. I am aware of what is said in some US trade magazines about DE versus Cimexa but the reality is that until someone tests like for like that debate can remain open.

    Now, I am not the only one who does not recommend encasement, the EU code of best practice does not endorse them. It’s really only the US who went down that path and if you spend a little more time researching it and following the money you will see that a product that sells itsself on hygiene is far from it. I am not the only one who has been offered kickbacks but it appears I am one of the few that did not take them.

    So in response to your comments about believing I prolong infestations and increase suffering I can only explain a little more about my business and how we have funded the development of our bedbug systems. Outside of my work with monitor development we provide a service to eradicate infestations in people’s homes and businesses. Where I initially started in 2005 like many chemical based treatment companies we soon realized that chemical application alone was not the answer and that education and detailed analysis of the risks helped people manage the problem they had but also reduced the risk of reintroduction. The net effect of this is that we use lower chemical levels to get the better results and that met our goals.

    A few years later we realized that smaller infestations = faster solutions and therefore started to look at detection. I thought the answer lay in interceptors which initially seemed like a good idea, until we started to see the field test data. Non isolated cases cleared faster with chemical control than isolated ones. However the rest of the world was getting into that game in a big way and where my research dead ended in the 1861 E B Lake patent those developing this approach did not work back that far. The US patent office did though and the application was thrown out and not inventive. Given that the peak of the bedbug issue was in the 1930's and late 1940's if such devices were in common use we would know about it and they would be found in antique shops.

    In 2009 we filed patents on our methods and devices for bedbug detection and started using them in commercial settings for early detection to again reduce the treatment processes. In 2011 we started to train hotels how to deal with infestations themselves using non chemical methods as a result of early detection. In 2012 I worked on a steamer optimization that allowed us to stop using chemicals in commercial locations completely and since that date we have not used synthetic insecticides in hotel rooms. By the end of 2012 we were teaching hotels how to deal with infestations themselves with a procedural manual and training package. Some of these locations were 100% infested and had been fighting bedbugs for 5 years without success and yet we got it under control and manageable by their staff in just 10 working days.

    We now use Passive+ Monitors as a QA /QC adjunct to all our methods and have found that they significantly reduce the risk of needing a second visit.

    So my approach and method has grown to a stage where most light cases can be cleared in under an hours technician time on site, yes that 100% eradicated, no more bites by the time we leave the property for less than $200.

    In medium cases we reduce the risk of needing a second visit to the property and most cases are cleared in 14 days for treatment. If a revisit is needed it’s still less than about $250 for the course of treatment.

    We regularly knock down infestations in the 100,000 to 50,000 bedbug level in a matter of hours and charge a fraction of what it would cost to do a thermal treatment in the home and again we are not dousing homes with insecticide.

    So yes I don't agree with the full DIE, you may get me to agree on D but with all due respect I have had a little more time working on this, thinking about this, testing this, optimizing this and actually doing this than any person who deals with bedbugs once a month and lives to be 350+ years old.

    I have said at times that before it was widely accepted that the world is round(ish) the popular belief was that it was flat. While Columbus was decried as a heretic and non-believer (and to some extent I know just how he feels) it is now widely accepted that he was correct.

    I still invite you to slice the mainsail and join me on-board the good ship sensible scientific facts because I am more than happy to place a wager on my long term correctness here.

    If you don't believe me give TbyPMR a try for 14 days and you will see a reduction in activity, may even resolve your infestation and keep in mind it could have even saved you so much time, effort and cost to date.

    I can assure you that you will not fall from the edge of the earth into a fiery abyss of monsters.

    Finally to leave on an agreement, yes everyone's homes are different which is why knowledge and experience that is gained from so many different homes and circumstances in many different countries and properties is so valuable. I design my systems to be workable with the same basic 3 tools regardless of the home or level of infestation and for the most part that fits into a 2 foot cubed box which only needs water and an electrical outlet to run it. I make a larger environmental impact getting to site than I do when I am on site.

    I hope that makes sense and I hope you don't mind if the JN link is removed, like many I spend far too long having to remove comments associated with them from my pictures and posts on the internet, it’s almost cult-like the way that so many seem to get it so wrong unless it’s actually them driving all this as some pre-hype to their new kit that they will again deny that they are making.

    Bedbugs can do some nasty things to people’s minds when they are forced to suffer for too long which is exactly why I went back to basics and did things differently, the old way is certainly not matching the promises as is clear from people’s posts.

    David

  5. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 16:04:34
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    David, thanks for your long response; it did clarify many things for me about your philosophy.

    We are also told that encasement's are essential to treating bedbugs, the fact I don't use them is proof of home fallacious that line is.

    I don't think anyone argues that they are "essential", only that the benefits outweigh the costs. Naylor, whom you cited for example, noted the dispersal risk but ultimately recommended encasing. And there is also a dispersal risk if you don't encase regardless of the reason why BBs might leave the bed.

    Now, I am not the only one who does not recommend encasement, the EU code of best practice does not endorse them.

    Believe it or not, I actually did peruse the best practices for both the EU and Australia both of which appear to recommend encasing box springs. The EU document does cast doubt on utility of encasing mattresses but says this about box springs: "By contrast, bed base encasements can be of considerably greater value for bedbug control, as bedbugs harbouring inside divan (or box-frame) beds are notoriously difficult to treat. Bed base encasements can provide savings (in time and money) compared to replacing the entire bed. These encasements can be left in place permanently, but if the intention is to remove it, after the bedbugs have been eradicated, it is important to be aware that bedbugs have been known to survive for up to a year without feeding."

    yes the lack of a piping overhang removes the thygmotaxic response (Kells) and removes some key harbourages (Naylor) which can cause bedbugs to scatter. These are both known facts so encasing does disperse and dispersing in terms of treatment can only be a bad thing.

    It "can only be a bad thing" if those bugs disperse unscathed. If they twice pass through a reliable dust, they eventually should die. Why should I care if they disperse to that nice cashmere sweater grandma gave me or inside a copy of my Bed Bug Beware Book by David Cain? To me, your strongest argument would be that resistance trends could reduce the effectiveness of a once reliable dust just like what happened to DE. It's a powerful argument and I only hope universities regularly test products since it's not that difficult to assess a dust's efficacy.

    So all said and done you have managed to argue your position as one that will disperse bedbugs, may not kill them (if they feed through), may fail due to rips and tears, costs people a lot of money for a product known for ripping and tearing and yet offers no value over a simple dust mite encasement although even that will result in dispersal.

    Like any other product, you have to do due diligence. It should be designed for bedbugs and have been tested by a named reputable entomologist. Feeding through the encasement would presumably have been tested by the entomologist. I chose Safe Rest after looking at over 1000 comments; there were only a couple of negative ones (too hot and zipper broke). If it were tearing a lot, people would be posting that on Amazon. In any event, it would only need to hold for about 2-3 months after which all the bugs inside should be dead (I doubt they go dormant in that situation).

    While Columbus was decried as a heretic and non-believer (and to some extent I know just how he feels) it is now widely accepted that he was correct.
    I still invite you to slice the mainsail and join me on-board the good ship sensible scientific facts because I am more than happy to place a wager on my long term correctness here.

    I will give you this: you're a real bargain at the rates you quoted (about half that of NYC). I think steaming could be very effective but only by a professional. First, you need pay at least $200 to get a decent one and a pro can leverage cost across many customers. Second, it takes some skill to operate it effectively (angle, rate etc.). I believe you are 100% sincere and like JN you are on a mission. If bugs accelerate their resistance over development rate of new chemicals, there may be no choice but to join your crusade. But David, for the moment, on this particular issue, I'm afraid I must regard you not as a Columbus or Galileo, but more as someone I might encounter on a soap box at Speaker's Corner on a lovely autumn day :). I therefore must reject your generous offer to join you on the "good ship" since it might end up a version of the Caine Mutiny. Bon voyage David...Cheers.

  6. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 16:23:03
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    Hi,

    I wonder if you could enlighten us as to how something becomes resistant to something that had no chemical action?

    The rest of the points I will happily reply to tomorrow at a more social hour.

    However please do not place me in te same group as noises as it only brings into question the thoroughness if your research.

    I will happily explain more of the reality of bedbug dispersal as time allows but suffice to say you have missed the point that while bedbugs like birds can nest in many places they often choose the optimal structures provided.

    The reality remains I clear cases even with advice alone in 14 days. I don't see talked about much and yet it's what people should expect, soap box or not. Anything less is failing those in most need.

    David

  7. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 17:15:32
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    I wonder if you could enlighten us as to how something becomes resistant to something that had no chemical action?

    Fair enough, I used the term too loosely. I was really referring to an expedited Darwinian evolutionary process where BBs with thicker cuticles survive and propagate.

    However please do not place me in the same group as noises as it only brings into question the thoroughness if your research.

    I compared you to Noise only in terms of zeal not knowledge and experience.

    you have missed the point that while bedbugs like birds can nest in many places they often choose the optimal structures provided.

    I perfectly understand and concur. The gist of my argument was I don't care where they ultimately nest if they pass through a dust on the way which will eventually kill them.

    The reality remains I clear cases even with advice alone in 14 days.

    Speaking honestly, I'm skeptical this could be accomplished primarily through steaming in a typical house or apartment. A hotel room is spartan and small in comparison. I have no doubt a bed and walls-floor intersection could be treated effectively using steam by a skilled professional. I'm dubious about overall success rate in a house with pictures, multiple dressers, electronics and so on. The possibility of missing a pregnant female is always there; dust, on the other hand, can remain so eventually that female will cross it and die.

  8. KillerQueen

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 19:50:45
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    Raising Cain - you're my new hero!!

    You my friend, have the ability to look past the lighthouse unlike many on this site. You didn't get stuck staring into the bright light of a single stand alone structure that is screaming for attention. This is his platform - and he's been allowed to go untouched here for years. Its sad really because many people with good info have left already and I'm slowly following because the site has become so one sided. My time would be better suited helping people rather than debating other "pros" on the site.

    Fact - I'm not endorsed by anyone and I make little to no money on encasements. They even require more time and work to put on but I still use them. I use them because they work in more ways than one. Scary that they become the worlds largest Bed Bug Monitor when use, isn't it?

    Fact - I've been using encasements on mattresses and box springs for 10 years and don't find the problems the lighthouse speaks of.

    Fact - I've been using aerosols for 10 years and have zero problems to report about. The method of delivery is not a factor with dispersal but who has time to debate a never ending battle with the lighthouse? Certainly not someone who is actually busy solving bed bug issues daily. Nor would I recommned anyone with a solid reputation in the industry waste their time.

    Fact - I'll challenge anyone in this business to prove that they have better treatment results than me. And that's with whatever method they use. Not trying to sound cocky but my rep speaks for itself. I know a thing or two about bed bugs and that has been proven with countless reviews from clients just on this site alone. I don't have to scream and stomp to get your attention like others do here.

    Fact - Been using Climb Up Monitors for years as well and have zero problems to report.

    I could go on and on but you get my point. Ride past the lighthouse my friend, theres an ocean out there.

    Regards,
    
John Furman
    
Boot A Pest, Inc.

    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  9. Neverthought

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 29 2014 21:15:02
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    I make no money on encasements, I am just a consumer but they saved me a ton of money because I did use them.
    If I didn't use them, I can't imagine the disaster that was for sure headed my way.
    I really never understood why anyone would recommend not using them. I think that is just crazy.

    I also used Saferest brand on my box spring and mattress. I have had NO problems with them. No rips, no tears definitely not a waste of my money but the best purchase I did make. I love the zipper and the little Velcro flap over the zipper.
    I can say nothing is going to bite through them and nothing did.

    I also like the climb ups too.

  10. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 6:37:19
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    Hi R C,

    OK You started on mattress encasement and then moved to box spring and base encasement. Yes the EU code does say that they can be good at removing potential harbourage points but again I can illustrate that they are neither essential or required.

    EU and UK beds are called divan beds when they have the appearance and set up below:

    divanorencasedboxandmattresss by bedbugscouk, on Flickr

    As you can see the base is deeper and the wheels attach to the bottom corners of the base. As such to encase means you would need to put holes int he encasement to attach the wheels or the encasement would be on the ground and thus providing 8 bridges for bedbugs to walk onto the bed. There is technology patented granted in the UK to get around this issue but it is not provided by any of the encasement companies.

    However the reality is that there is no more initial space in a UK divan base than a small US box base, the area of first harbourage sites is identical.

    How for the reality, this type of bed is used in many if not most hotels, its a common bed type, I personally have treated tens of thousands of them so I get to work with this a lot. While bedbugs could live inside the frame itself until the initial refugia are occupied they do not. In fact given hat many of my hotel clients have this type of bed and use my system without additional treatment we know that the additional treatment offers little or no value.

    So back over to the dust issue, we don't have Cimexa as I explained so it cant be as essential as you claim as we don't need it because we can work without it. In fact our system does not require the advance application of dusts at all and yet it still works. I have actually been discussing this issue with the author of the PCT paper because we see nothing but huge issues including silicosis from those who use SiO2 in the EU but we have recently agreed that it may be that what is being claimed as SiO2 may in fact be one of the many forms that do not work as well or have health issues such as pool grade DE.

    This leads me onto something called 6 sigma, a design principle where the aim is to make something as simple as possible in order to avoid failures. As such we work to this standard as the final product and system optimization removing the extraneous and potential error inducing steps.

    That approach is best described as:

    • Make sure its clear on day one
    • Install detection
    • Educate staff
    • Train on processes

    We leave the dusting to the housekeeping team.

    Now as for dispersing into my book, I had to laugh at that cheap shot. Not because you made it because it actually shows you lack of understanding of the issue. After I published the book in 2009 I realized that the surface coating of it was a mild repellant to bedbugs and certain synthetic finishes are. Int he same way some of those who tried to copy the prototypes we had out in the early days also made their devices out of material that repel bedbugs and thus they did not work. I test and retest all the variables and components when I design or make something because I want to maintain my reputation for getting this right first time. After all we all know what happens when politicians u-turn and go back on their words.

    So we do what we do without:

    • encasement
    • isolation
    • dusts of any nature

    Now I have letters of testimonial and customer feedback on my site that supports the claims I make, I come from a background where you have to be able to prove what you claim before you make it. Equally my claims have been validated by a third party which needed to be done as part of the due diligence of the technology transfer agreement I entered many years ago. That report which was a combination of field trial and home release trial confirmed capture within 12 - 72 hours. I have shown those to people when requested and a few on the forum could be asked to confirm I am only claiming what has been documented.

    I am now working on a poster for the ESA which illustrates how we use the Passive+ Monitors to reduce the need for revisits and promotes faster eradication. Surely that is the goal of both consumers and professionals?

    Now on to Darwin. Its a known fact that evolution occurs as a result of some selective environmental pressure, the advantages of curved bills on birds in getting food or in the case of humans isolated pockets of island dwelling people who develop spoon shaped fingers to help climb cliffs.

    So lets get this straight you wish to add extra environmental pressures in the hope that bedbugs are beaten before they can adapt. Well that one has played out well for the chemicals industry has it not?

    I on the other hand seek to work with the insects natural behavior by encouraging them into a target area that is easy to treat and remove. As such they are unlikely to develop behavioral resistance to what I do but you only have to look at the squirrel and magpie tests to see where there is still room for isolation to fail. If nothing else we know we only get bedbugs on the ceiling when they are forced to move to such places to gain access to food.

    Now to be clear about the work we do, because of the way that we deal with hotels the majority of my treatments are actually domestic settings because we have solutions in place for hotels already. As such we do work in normal home and normal conditions and by working with the bedbugs normal behavior we are able to clear cases faster. I have also taught others to work that way and I dare say using my tools and educational materials they have gone on to teach others.

    All said and done having read through all this I just don't see that we are here for the same reasons. To be clear I am here to help people, I am qualified and experienced enough to help people and part of that help is making sure they do not swallow the "industry line" which is very close to what you have been saying. If you are here to help people would it not be better to try and understand why and how we get the results we do so they can benefit others?

    David

  11. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 6:47:46
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    Hi KillerQueen,

    So great to hear from your sweetie, its always such a delight.

    Thanks for the lighthouse analogy, its always good to link me to something that does so much good. After all the lighthouse principle stops so many from getting smashed on the rocks and destroyed.

    As for the comments about driving people away I would have hoped that with some free time your website would have been completed, after all they are also beacons to help people understand. In fact I have had 4 overhauls and 3 complete we-writes in the time you have taken to complete .... non because they have all been under construction.

    I also believe it to be FACT that there is a more recent winner of the award you claim. That usually means the current title holder carries it not the ones that used to hold it.

    Heck I have even dealt with a few cases you have walked away from and resolved them either via the internet or when I have been in NY. I don't see you being able to make that claim anytime soon.

    Final, welcome back we have missed you so much and your wonderful mannerisms.

    David

  12. KillerQueen

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 8:41:43
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    Once again - more dribble that only relates to to sheep that believe the useless info from your mouth.

    Please remember that were not all sheep here. I can't think of a single industry professional here in the US that agrees with you or even gives you any credibility. In fact, the talk amongst us professionals is the opposite at best.

    Who has time for a website - not me! Unlike the countless hours that pass in front of your computer screen ... I'm in te field killing bugs. I'm not pitching $20.00 pieces of cardboard to anyone that will listen.

    With all your free time writing mostly useless garbage here, why not dedicate some of that free time and include some instructions within your "monitor" packaging? Is it because you need to keep the topic fresh here and have everyone looking at clueless customers questions about where to put the damn thing? I mean common, if you're really here to help people and not just sell monitors, help the people who already paid for your card board. You don't buy a computer without an operating system do you?

    Here's also a good time to tell the viewing public about your monitor.

    Tell us why MidMos no longer markets your product?

    Tell them why you don't have any credible 3rd party labs or universities standing behind your claims? Why is it a no no for other manufactures to not be endorsed or have proof of claims but it's ok for you? Why is it that the only info one can find about the effectiveness of your product only comes from your mouth alone?

    Tell us which major pest control companies purchase your product? Here in the US or abroad. Such as Arrow, Orkin, Terminix, whoever. Truth is - If it weren't for this site, your effort here, and other retail bed bug supply websites looking to turn a buck, you would be stuck with a lot of card board to recycle.

    Again - more of my time wasted as I stand here in an apartment on park ave. solving a bed bug issue. Imagine my clients face if I told them I have some card board that will solve your issue in your 4.2 million dollar home. Trust me, I read some good dribble online .... It works........... Yeah!

    Regards,
    
John Furman
    
Boot A Pest, Inc.

    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  13. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 10:06:36
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    John,

    I will answer your questions when I am in front of a computer, I also often post when I am mobile so your claim of hours in front of a PC are as fallacious as the ret of the verbiage.

    David

  14. KillerQueen

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 11:11:19
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    Not to worry. There not my questions really and I don't have any more free time to reply or care about your dribble. - If you care to make up some shit the public should find it funny.

  15. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Sep 30 2014 11:15:49
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    John,

    Since you have asked, insinuated and throw your cap into the ring I will happily go through your post to point out the many assumptions, inaccuracies and fallacious comments. I am happy to do that as a public service announcement if you like.

    David

  16. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 12:01:20
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    Round 2

    First of all, unlike yourself, I don't speak in absolutes about bedbug problem; I'm humble enough to recognize there are many approaches, each with pluses and minuses. I could have chosen to lay stark naked on my bed (maybe smothered in attractant pheremones), roll out the red carpet for the BBs, and have my girlfriend stand on the side and vacuum them up as they arrive. Poof! no dusts, steamers, ClimbUps - wouldn't have cost me a penny. Victims need to choose the best solution for their individual situation which includes budget, willingness to be bitten, degree of infestation, and so on. Second, your closing comment insinuating that I am not here to help people was vintage Cain, that is, needlessly insulting. I am not pushing any product or service. I worked as a consultant for many years where large companies often called on us to provide an objective, unbiased look at a particular problem. From my previous posts, it should be obvious that I follow an evidence-based approach wherever possible (e.g., EPA and university studies, customer feedback on particular products, exterminator experiments like those of Wieler). Speaking bluntly, the real trigger for me to post was a few days ago when you berated and condescended to an exceedingly polite and articulate woman who was just trying to implement your solution. I suspect you were angered because she was being bitten and no bugs were checking into the David Cain suites at your harborage hotel. I worried that others might be doing the same, following an approach which frankly doesn't have a lot of evidence-based support other than your protestations that it works well for hotel rooms.

    You don't have to convince me of the dangers of pesticides. Indeed, since my infestation had already spread, I decided to go it alone using an approach which minimized their use. While there were many other products which arguably would have been more effective, I chose Cimexa because it appeared to have the least risk in this regard. I thoroughly researched the silicosis risk and concluded that the presence of the dust for 3-4 months would not be a problem. If you catch the infestation very early, you probably could treat without any pesticide. Once it's spread, some pesticide use is important unless you choose to use structural heat. Pesticides are not a panacea but they are a piece of a multi-pronged solution. Bedbugs can and will hide almost anywhere and everywhere. Ultimately, you will probably need to use either a dust like Cimexa or long-lasting liquid concentrate like Transport (DIE acronym sounded better than LIE) which will kill them on their way in and out of their hiding spots. To be fair, Wieler's blog talks about his surprise when he solved many occurrences through heat sterilization and isolation of beds/couches using glue traps (no pesticide) so maybe there is hope on that front.

    While not "essential", encasing the box spring is as close to a no-brainer as you will find, at least here in America. You may choose to treat the area using heat/steam/spray before encasing, but I could find nobody who didn't recommend encasing other than David and JulesNoise. Now, it's possible you could do a very thorough heat sterilization and hope you've killed all the bugs and then isolate the bed. However, $30 will get you a good box spring encasement and most people/experts therefore will feel it's a good short and long-term investment. Regarding mattress, like I mentioned earlier, you may choose to avoid the cost by treating it and then isolating the bed. That will depend on its condition, your budget, and willingness to risk bites. Mattresses are easier to treat than box springs giving you other options. Regarding EU and different bed types, it sure does appear like European Code of Practice endorses bed isolation and encasing box-spring equivalent. If anything, the box spring openings place increased emphasis on thorough isolation.

    A word about JulesNoise since David has gone out of his way to diss the guy. His focus is low cost DIY protection for folks on a very limited budget. I believe he's retired and goes on location no charge to help poor people solve their infestations. From what I know about David's and Jules' approaches, if you forced me to choose one to treat my infestation, I'd choose Jules. It's not because of David's sandpapery personality; I just think Jules' approach has a better chance of solving the problem.

  17. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Sep 30 2014 12:10:51
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    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Once again - more dribble that only relates to to sheep that believe the useless info from your mouth.

    Now for a start that is not a professional way to refer to people, its rude and derogatory and if you feel that way about people you really should not be here trying to help because comments like that can make some people feel bad about themselves. its not commensurate with your claims to be "professional".

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Please remember that were not all sheep here. I can't think of a single industry professional here in the US that agrees with you or even gives you any credibility. In fact, the talk amongst us professionals is the opposite at best.

    Actually the last time the mattress encasement debate took place on LinkedIn it was 60:40 in favor of encasing. That alone disproves what you have said. Again, please think careful about the use of "us professionals" because if you cant give common courtesy don't claim higher standards.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Who has time for a website - not me! Unlike the countless hours that pass in front of your computer screen ... I'm in te field killing bugs. I'm not pitching $20.00 pieces of cardboard to anyone that will listen.

    Who as time for a website, well most companies that wish to educate and inform their customers. In fact that would be why so many companies have them, if you don't believe me take the phone book and call a company at random and ask for their website details. In fact I am also willing to bet that most of them are complete rather than "under construction". In fact websites are a great way to show how good you are rather than just claim to be good.

    It also helps us to support our customers 24/7 because our documentation links to sections and helps people to understand the issue.

    Actually most of my posts avoid talking about monitors because I know you and a few others have whined about it in the past. As for the time I spend online well its clear our jobs are different. I have a team, some who take calls, some who work in the field, as such my time is more flexible. I still go out and work on complex cases, train hotels, install systems but part of my professional growth has been to make sure that this company is just that, a company. If I were to be run down by a bus and not able to work it would continue because I have built it responsibly and professionally. So yes companies are more than just a completed website they are the people, the systems and processes that make things happen. If you feel that stacking what you have almost built part time against my full time venture please appoint and auditor and we can see who passes muster.

    However if you think I am per to make my money 1 monitor at a time you are a lot more naive than I had come to realize. The return on time from a single sale or even a box is nothing compared to what I get per hour treating or consulting. I think people can see that, heck event he patent clerk saw that when he declared "yes I will give you your patents, this is clearly more than a piece of cardboard" and he did not even claim to understand bedbugs.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    With all your free time writing mostly useless garbage here, why not dedicate some of that free time and include some instructions within your "monitor" packaging?

    Good idea I will work on that next week and will make sure I credit you for the idea. Whoever as you would know if you had actually used them the packaging is a box of 12 not individual units, if they were smaller packs we would most likely link to the website, you know that thing online where you explain things to your customers and potential customers.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Is it because you need to keep the topic fresh here and have everyone looking at clueless customers questions about where to put the damn thing?

    No some people appreciate that attention to detail of advising them in the specific of their circumstances. While declaring "head bugs" may work for you I personally don't see that as a professional way of dealing with people.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    I mean common, if you're really here to help people and not just sell monitors, help the people who already paid for your card board. You don't buy a computer without an operating system do you?

    Some people do my computers with operating systems for specific jobs so please try to be a little more accurate with your questions and correct with the spelling, otherwise it just comes across as an angry man with chubby fingers "fisting" away at the keyboard.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Here's also a good time to tell the viewing public about your monitor.
    Tell us why MidMos no longer markets your product?

    Actually Brandenburg do who are the parent company of MidMos, I am n sure if they still do at the second in the US but they do elsewhere in the world. There will come a time when they no longer due but as you are not privy to the terms of the contract and possibly not aware that such transactions have an automatic shelf life of 5 years in the EU you may not appreciate that 2009 + 5 years is almost up. I doubt that was the answer you were fishing for but heck its the accurate one.

    In fact we are looking at switching manufacturing to the US since it is so popular with consumers and I know made n the US means something to some people.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Tell them why you don't have any credible 3rd party labs or universities standing behind your claims?

    Of the US universities to test so far the labs either failed to follow the instructions or failed to disclose other vested interests. We also recently discussed this point (odd how you all hit the same points time after time and fail to read the answers) and I am sorry but while I have offered to supply product for testing not many have taken me up on offer. The good news however is that two have done so in the last week and that will soon change.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Why is it a no no for other manufactures to not be endorsed or have proof of claims but it's ok for you?

    Actually I published independent testing data back in 2010, its in a document online on my website if you would care to read something rather than repeating what others have said for you to raise you would have known that because sadly I actually sent you that document to read when as completed. Its OK someone made the exact same comment the other day and i was able to get them to pull up the email and confirm they had skipped that paragraph.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Why is it that the only info one can find about the effectiveness of your product only comes from your mouth alone?

    Well again that one is a fallacious claim because others do use my product, get good results but they are either not on this forum or you do not know them. You would serve yourself well not to assume that just because you don't know someone that they don't exist. The world is a tad bigger than NY or the US alone.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Tell us which major pest control companies purchase your product? Here in the US or abroad. Such as Arrow, Orkin, Terminix, whoever.

    Such perfect timing I will forward the proof of that to a third party ask them to confirm. I had an email from an international academic the other day confirming that in their region one of the worlds top 5 servicing companies uses the product. They don't in the UK or USA but they do local to him.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Truth is - If it weren't for this site, your effort here, and other retail bed bug supply websites looking to turn a buck, you would be stuck with a lot of card board to recycle.

    No that's not the truth, the consumer sales do not support the worth of my company, the volume is too low and the return I get does not make for a ROW that is acceptable. I have a stable company because I have been providing systems since 2009 and my repeat, satisfied and bedbug complaint free customers pay to renew the systems annually. So sorry John that is possibly the nail in the coffin in terms of you stating the truth when it could not be further from the truth. That is the definition of fallacious and if the cap fits why not get your logo and "under construction" printed on it.

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    Again - more of my time wasted as I stand here in an apartment on park ave. solving a bed bug issue. Imagine my clients face if I told them I have some card board that will solve your issue in your 4.2 million dollar home. Trust me, I read some good dribble online .... It works........... Yeah!

    Yeah odd because I just finished in a property where 3 other companies could not find signs of bedbugs but treated anyway. It took me 30 minutes to screen the home and all I found was 2 faecal traces one of which was on the underside of the raffia seating. They were confirmed with bed bug blue (because its professional to confirm) and they were given advice only as the previous companies had diffused the bedbugs around the home.

    I gave advice and some Passive+ Monitors and took them step by step through a modified TbyPMR process for them.

    The thing that shocked her the most was that I was in fact completely different than the previous firms, in that I studied the case in order to work out how to fix it. I know you have your method and claim results but as Mr Darwin would tell you doing the same thing over and over again is a good way to build up an evolutionary pressure to induce mutation and resistance.

    After all you know from others that bedbugs can and do at times move to ceiling to gain access to the bed. You may claim its not possible but people have seen it and documented it.

    This is why I give so much of my time to this site, to ID correct and quickly, the support on all aspects of the issue and because without me being here all people would get is the DejaMoo industry line and lets face it that one is wearing a little thin considering its hardly delivering the promised results.

    I can assure people the world is not flat and no matter how many try to tell you that it is there will come a time when it is a widely accepted fact that it is not.

    David

  18. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 12:18:33
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    Hi Raising Cain,

    Thank you for being more honest this time.

    However I stand by my earlier statement that you and I are here for different reasons and regardless of what you assume my motives are I am focused on helping people.

    Part of that is challenging the fact that 3 - 4 months of bedbugs is not an acceptable time.

    I will however asked you to be a little more polite and less insinuating and insulting in your comments as it does not serve your argument well.

    If it takes 3 or 4 of you to try and pick on me and yet you still loose the points you try to raise so be it. I will still be here helping people long after you have gone.

    David

  19. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 30 2014 14:45:42
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    David,

    Thank you for being more honest this time.

    I've always been honest, I prefer the word "forthcoming". Speaking of forthcoming, don't you think it's important for people here to know that your product doesn't work with encasements? Naylor apparently believes encasements and passive monitors are the way to go, but hey, David, he's probably being paid off by encasement manufacturers, right? I think the ECO Keeper trap/monitor (described in earlier post) is an elegant product and I will be eager to watch how it performs in the field.

    However I stand by my earlier statement that you and I are here for different reasons and regardless of what you assume my motives are I am focused on helping people.

    What do you believe is my motivation? Do you think I'm trolling?

    I will however asked you to be a little more polite and less insinuating and insulting in your comments as it does not serve your argument well.

    Now that's rich.

    Part of that is challenging the fact that 3 - 4 months of bedbugs is not an acceptable time.

    I would argue in this instance it's a plus. Sometimes what is needed is a fresh, independent, unbiased perspective from a person who has no dog in the fight. Like I said, I'm not pushing products or services. If I mentioned a product, I gave the reason I used that product. In some instances, a thorough review of the literature is worth more than personal experience. For example, you talk about bed isolation and alarm pheremones but never reference any study; I gave two, one on interceptors and other on glue traps. How does your personal experience help on that subject?

    it takes 3 or 4 of you to try and pick on me and yet you still loose the points you try to raise so be it.

    Who wins the debate will be up to the individual readers, not you or me.

    I will still be here helping people long after you have gone.

    No doubt you will survive just like the bedbug. That's why I hope NoBugs will update the Treatment section. For example, it states Naylor's against encasements but his thinking appears to have changed. Also the "protect" versus "isolate" is very confusing; I would drop the "protect" and present it as degree of isolation talking about the probability of repelling bugs and alert pheremone based on available literature and studies. At least, when you invariably segue into your rant about encasements and isolation no matter the topic, she could interject and direct readers to the relevant FAQ.

  20. doriangrey

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 7:37:40
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    Raising Cain, and KillerQueen,

    I have been reading on this site for a couple of months now, and recently created an account. After reading through the entirety of this post multiple times, I am flabbergasted at the fact that you seem to miss the entire point of this site. From everything that I have read on this site, the point is to offer support, advice, and most importantly: information.

    As someone who has taken the DIY approach with a moderate infestation, and gathered most of my information from this site and a few others scattered about the internet, at no point have I felt like the debate here is "one sided".

    It looks to me like you logged on to this site with the intention of staging some sort of immature attack using name-calling as your weapon of choice. It does not really add value to any of your arguments, nor does is really help anyone who is simply looking to find accurate information. There is nothing wrong with debate, as long as it is polite and there is an understanding that you must respect the opinions of others, even if you don't necessarily agree.

    I will admit that I am no expert, I am simply someone who has used this site to gather information and formulate the plan of attack that works best for me. What I am trying to get at here is that a vendetta against any user here is counterproductive, and devalues any information that you may be trying to pass on to other users.

    As far as encasing a mattress is concerned, it is something that does not work for me, not because someone here has led me astray, but because of the type of bed that I have. I also do not really see the point of encasing with a cover when I can more quickly eradicate bed-bugs using their natural patterns. Knowledge truly is power in the battle against these little Nosferatu.

  21. P Bello

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    Wed Oct 1 2014 7:39:11
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    Hmmm . . .

    Leave the BBF for a few days and look what happens. This certainly has gotten fugly here, hasn't it kids? Yikes !

    A few brief comments cause I gotsta go:

    Mr. RC,

    You've raised some good points and questions and it's apparent you've done some reading.

    Firstly, please understand that I recommend, support and use isolation with great success. However, some of the stuff you seem to be saying may be a tad off but, not that far so, that's a good thing.

    Just for clarity, the math is rather simple here:
    Isolation = (eliminate ALL bed bugs on bed, bed frame, head/foot board, mattress & box spring via thorough inspection & treatment) + (installation of high quality encasements) + (installation of climb up blocking devices) + (separating bed & bedding from any surrounding potential bridge surface)

    Additionally, while isolation may work in and of itself to eliminate biting for the sleeping person, it is best done in combination with a thorough and comprehensive remediation program which is designed and intended to delivery zero bugs. Note that "zero bugs" addresses any BS dispersal and other such concerns.

    Overall, encasements are a good thing and they are "part" of the program. There's no conspiracy involved and every competent pest pro and researcher in the Industry recommends their use as part of a thorough and complete bed bug management program. And please note for the record boys and girls, as RC has pointed out, that the listed benefits of encasements have yet to be successfully or sufficiently refuted in any post here to date.

    KQ, as they say, you have "a way with words". However, those in the know already know that you know what you're doing and what you're talking about so, there's that . . . Keep up the good work !

    Hmmm . . .

    "Astral . . ." Really?

    (Perhaps you're just half right on that designation.)

    However, out of respect for our pal Mr. Louis Sorkin, folks like Jeff White, Rick Cooper, Austin Frishman, Roberto Pereira, Roger Gold, Phillip Koehler, Dini Miller, Nan Yao Su, Michael Potter, Mark Coffelt, Michael Rust, Michael Rierson, Michael Haverty, Gary Bennett, Bobby Corrigan, Lynn Frank, Mike Deutsch, Michael Goldstein, Kim Kelly-Tunis, Pat Hottel, Mark Vanwerwerp, Eric Snell, Larry Pinto, George Rambo, Dan Suiter and many, many others who actually hold degrees in and actively work in the arena of Professional Urban & Industrial Entomology, this self proclaimed moniker must be deleted for the following reasons:

    a. It's absurd, there's no such thing as an astral entomologist.
    b. It's false and misleading, as per above.
    c. It's false and misleading because, unless things have changed, one must hold a degree in entomology and this is not so.
    d. It's disrespectful to Lou who actually is an entomologist but far too much of a gentlemen to soil his hands addressing such an issue.
    e. It's obviously intended in a disrespectful fashion.
    f. It violates the "rules of disclosure" and purpose for listing the disclosures because the information listed therein is supposed to be true and accurate of which this is neither.

    Have a nice day kids !

    pjb

  22. mangycur

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 10:55:03
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    i can't believe encasements work for you guys. I have bought many of the top of the line encasements and they always rip open. ALWAYS. Even when it wasn't my cats doing it, if I moved the mattress to vacuum i would find rips in the encasements.

    I found it simpler to get rid of my box springs and just clean my mattress well. I have wasted SO MUCH money on encasements it isn't even funny. That said, I do use the pillow encasements and they seem to work well.

  23. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 1 2014 11:20:26
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    Hi Paul,

    My signature line includes that comment for the same reasons that others have light hearted comments.

    I would agree with you had a said Board Certified Astral Entomologist but when a customer says "Your an astral entomologist because your out of this world" I will reserve the right to use that quote.

    However if Lou or a BCE Entomologist who has earned that title feels that I am using it offensively they can contact me to discuss although I have not received any comments to date.

    Does that mean you would object to anyone using an entomology title who is not BCE? I ask partly because my first degree does include modules of entomology to a US undergraduate level, I later specialized in molecular biology but to get there I needed to cover many different aspects and disciplines. The educational systems are different but often what we cover in year 1 is equivalent to year 2 US by virtue of the fact that the A-level system in the UK is more advanced than high school qualifications in the US. As such some of my 2nd year modules were based on US third year degree modules. I refer to my degree as molecular biology because that is what my honors project was in, to be exact "Changes in gene expression during gravitropism of tomato hypercotyls".

    As for the rest of the fallacious and factless comments you have listed ad nausea I think how you opened that post says it all. To take issue with the professionalism of others you should not have a wake of issues left behind you, otherwise it opens people up to previous discussions which you have clearly not taken on board. On this occasion I have been more tactful than I have in the past or will in the future.

    So next time it may be better to enquirer rather than to take a pejorative tone with others.

    David

  24. loubugs

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    Wed Oct 1 2014 12:13:53
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    My signature line includes that comment for the same reasons that others have light hearted comments.

    I would agree with you had a said Board Certified Astral Entomologist but when a customer says "Your an astral entomologist because your out of this world" I will reserve the right to use that quote.

    However if Lou or a BCE Entomologist who has earned that title feels that I am using it offensively they can contact me to discuss although I have not received any comments to date.

    Does that mean you would object to anyone using an entomology title who is not BCE?

    I saw it as light-hearted and an astral entomologist because he's out of this world or his comments are or whatever was stated somewhere above. The certified entomologist comment not only pertains to Board Certified Entomologist but to Associate Certified Entomologist, ACE. The latter category was created by the governing organization, Entomological Society of America (ESA), for the PMP/PCO who studies and takes an exam to show proficiency in matters related to insect pest management in order to obtain the letters. There are re-certification programs, courses, etc. over the years in order for a BCE or ACE to retain the designation. A person with an ACE designation is not supposed to list that they are an Entomologist because they do not have a college degree in entomology. They can list Associate Certified Entomologist, not Certified Entomologist for the same reason. The word Associate has to be used.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  25. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 1 2014 12:31:40
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    Hi Lou,

    Thanks for the confirmation.

    I have always admired the BCE system because it shows that those who want to be seen and proven to be professional will take the steps to obtain the qualifications to prove that they are not making up or misusing a title.

    I kind of knew you would not be offended and would see the humor behind it and am pleased to see that confirmed.

    David

  26. loubugs

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 16:44:23
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    Well, that debate has come to an end. But the original ones deal with isolation and encasement.
    People have used isolation but have also placed insecticidal powder or monitoring devices. There have been good results with employing isolation and also not. Encasement of the mattress seals a mattress. You can seal a box spring, sofa or other object. Bed bugs basically don't infest inside mattresses; some have no means of entrance but some have metal grommets that allow air to move in and out during compression and expansion such as when a person gets into and out of bed. I have pictures of this:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/lou_bugs_pix/3734646987/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/lou_bugs_pix/3735444210/
    A box spring, on the other hand, is a wooden structure but also has fabric, stuffing and metal and it's a good place to harbor. It can be a difficult place to treat because of the mixture of materials and structure. If this is encased, the difficulty in treating is removed as long as there are no hidden holes or tears. If you place monitors or an insecticide that will last, hopefully bed bugs will crawl into or onto them.

  27. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 16:54:18
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    Since this thread is very active, I'd like to take the opportunity to follow up on a few things which I believe will help those currently battling bedbugs:

    (1) DUST - I chose to use a dust because I concluded the health risk was lower than pesticide-based products like Transport. Studies showed Diatomaceous Earth didn't perform as well as expected in the field so I sought another product. I selected Cimexa based upon a video by Richard White and some research of my own. I was lucky because a month after my treatment ended an article was published in PCT which showed very favorable results for Cimexa in both lab and field.
    Here is the link to that article:
    http://www.pctonline.com/pct0814-silica-gel-research-bed-bugs.aspx

    Additionally a very depressing article was just published in PCT about rapidly growing bedbug resistance to dual ingredient insecticides like Transport. This further suggests favoring the use of a dessicant like Cimexa.
    Here is the depressing link:
    http://www.pctonline.com/pct0614-bed-bugs-insecticides-resistance.aspx

    (2) ISOLATE - You need to wear belts and suspenders when you isolate. Leon Wieler extensively uses glue traps and has found that 2% of bedbugs are able to walk across them. Also, dust and dirt accumulation could increase that %. Similarly, bedbugs will take advantage of any dust/dirt/coarseness in your interceptor (e.g., ClimbUp) so you have to diligently apply talc-based product. There are videos showing bedbugs walking up teflon, glass, and stainless steel which contained invisible imperfections. Bottom Line: Bedbugs will exploit any deficiency in your set-up and that is why you should follow a multi-level protection strategy IMHO. Here's a very simple one: Use a ClimbUp interceptor and be sure to maintain by applying talc to inside wall of outer well. Then tape an empty tuna or water chestnut (larger than tuna) tin can in the center of it. Place the leg in the can and pour mineral oil outside of the can. Apply talc to the can above the area above where mineral oil ends. That should be reliable protection but you could also add tape further up. Forget any kind of sticky tape (even gorilla tape); the only product I know which has been tested (by ChangLu) is a teflon tape sold by USBedBugs. I would also dust that with talc every so often to maintain its slipperiness. There are other ways to achieve multi-level protection; the bottom line is don't rely on just glue or interceptor or mineral oil.

    Regarding glue traps, the surface is critical. I have finished hardwood; I cut off the edges of the traps so just the glue portion was left. The texture of the floor and glue apparently was sufficiently similar for bugs to walk onto trap. Waxy tiles should yield a similar result. Glue traps don't work so well on carpet. I refer you to Leon Wieler's blog for more detail. BTW I think EcoKeeper product using glue ring will repel bugs but I wonder how many will then harbor inside the 4 edges.

    (3) ENCASE - Distinguish between box spring and mattress encasement. I've argued box spring is a no-brainer. I believe evaluation of pros/cons of mattress protection will lead you to the decision to encase. It provides protection against stains, and also against dust mites, allergens, bacteria, etc. I paid $48 for mine which included an extensive 10 year warranty. If I use it for 7 years, that's about $7 per year. I think 7 bucks is a good value for all of the benefits. Of course, I recognize that $48 up front might be too much for some.

    That's it: the DIE approach. Hey, I'm no pro but y'all gotta agree that DIE is catchier than TbyPMR - Take that David Cain!

  28. loubugs

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 17:33:02
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    RC:

    (1) DUST - I chose to use a dust because I concluded the health risk was lower than pesticide-based products ....

    You should realize that CimeXa dust is a pesticide, specifically an insecticide.
    It's true and it's been pointed out many times before that glue isn't the best for restraining bed bugs because they can walk on it, around it and maybe even stay away from it. David Cain also pointed this out. The ease of use of a climb up interceptor device was important so people will use it. If you add another container and oil, it takes away from the simplicity of it. You'll have to see some of the new products that are being evaluated as monitoring devices.

  29. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 17:39:00
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    Hi Lou,
    It sounds like you favor box spring encasement. Regarding isolation, I think we need to define the term. I consider a ClimbUp Interceptor a form of isolation; it's designed to prevent the bedbugs from climbing onto your bed and feeding on your blood. Not isolating to me means there is nothing in the way of the bedbug. In my original post, I mentioned I placed a ring of Cimexa around my bed but I do not consider that a form of isolation; BBs wouldn't die immediately from the Cimexa and could still feed on me. You could, as I believe you implied, rid yourself of bedbugs through encasement(s) and Cimexa and not need isolation. I would argue that a treatment plan is not exclusively focused on killing the bugs. It also has to provide a way for people to get some sleep so they can live their lives and maintain their health. To me, that is key to achieving, as you say, 'good results'. Now, resident(s) could go stay at a relative's place and you could place dry ice and other CO2 emitters to entice bedbugs. But why do that if not necessary? There is no downside to isolation (I'm happy to debate speed of resolution) if you have strategically placed the dust and the upside is minimal disruption of people's lives. Bottom Line: Isolation IMHO is important piece of treatment plan.

    It's true and it's been pointed out many times before that glue isn't the best for restraining bed bugs because they can walk on it, around it and maybe even stay away from it. David Cain also pointed this out. The ease of use of a climb up interceptor device was important so people will use it. If you add another container and oil, it takes away from the simplicity of it. You'll have to see some of the new products that are being evaluated as monitoring devices.

    Re Glue There's no way to walk around it in connection with protecting your bed. If they stay away from it, the dust will get them per my original post. Glue is more reliable in isolating bed than ClimbUp imo - only 2% were able to walk through it.

    Re ClimbUp I don't regard placing leg in can and pouring mineral oil as that complex.

  30. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 18:33:13
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    Hi,

    Sorry folks but repeating something does not make it any more accurate it only makes it more likely that someone will questions the pattern of the cloth of the emporers new clothes.

    Bad advice repeated does not increase accuracy it does however increase it's fallaciousness.

    David

  31. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 19:46:48
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    Have there been studies on the mineral oil approach? I thought bedbugs would emit an alarm phermone if they fell into a trap or mineral oil.

    If anyone responds to this, please be polite or I'll just ignore it. Heck, even if you are polite, I might ignore it. As a non-expert, I'm just interested in learning...quaere.......not making or attempting to make a statement of fact. My overall thoughts on this thread regarding the experts is (not that it matters):

    De Fide et Officio Judicis no Recipitur Quaestio....

    (problem is if anyone knows this quote...crap...oh well...wait...who works with a bunch of lawyers who might know this quote.....hmmmm...who could it be...anyway, she won't hijack this thread)

    Back on topic:

    Lou ain't the only one who quotes Latin. Lou, thank you so much for your input on this thread!

    They
    Are
    Out
    There
    = TAOT
  32. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 2:51:29
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    Hi TAOT,

    Pitfalls with mineral oil smother bedbugs and thus alarm pheromone release is limited to a few seconds. A dry well however can give time for that "message" to get out.

    I am not are of any studies behind some Sweedish research of alarm pheromone detection. Part of the issue here is that realistic setting research is not likely to get past academic ethics reviews because it requires people living in realistic settings with actual bedbugs.

    While some are willing and have done controlled male only releases in our homes not many are that dedicated. It might help if there was more grant funding.

    David

  33. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 10:33:28
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    Correction: I mentioned entomologist/exterminator Richard White at BedBugCentral as the person whose video led me to Cimexa; actually his name is Jeff White. I had Richard Cooper who is affiliated with a related company rattling in my brain and mixed the two names.

    doriangrey wrote: It looks to me like you logged on to this site with the intention of staging some sort of immature attack using name-calling as your weapon of choice.

    I hope you're not talking about me because my "weapon of choice" has been evidence-based material and objective, critical thinking. Why don't you re-read this thread and compile a list of every time I referenced university studies, exterminator experiments, Amazon customer feedback, etc and then post it here.

    doriangrey wrote: As someone who has taken the DIY approach with a moderate infestation, and gathered most of my information from this site and a few others scattered about the internet, at no point have I felt like the debate here is "one sided".

    I don't believe I ever claimed it was one-sided only that it created a false equivalency; there is a subtle difference. It would be similar to hearing mostly from a scientist who denies climate change.

    David Cain wrote: Sorry folks but repeating something does not make it any more accurate

    You wrote that right after I provided new information within the DIE structure. You voiced concern earlier over silicosis mentioning discussions you had with somebody. If you took the time to read the PCT article on Cimexa you would have learned the difference between natural crystalline silica and synthetic non-crystalline silica and the implications re inhalation hazard. Frankly, it's worrisome to me that a pro and someone who studied molecular biology wouldn't have already known that. Here's some more information: NY State is very rigorous in its review of pesticides. Go to any pesticide seller's website (e.g., domyownpestcontrol.com) and you will notice several leading products like Phantom which cannot be sold in NY.

    Want more information? You and others have expressed concern over rips/tears in encasements and I provided the name of a brand which I researched and would recommend. It received 4.6 out of 5.0 rating on Amazon for 639 respondents, has a patent pending on zipper design, offers a comprehensive 10 year warranty, and publishes the results of the entomologist's tests on its website. The manufacturer has a 4.9 out of 5.0 seller rating. A reputable company like this doesn't offer a 10 year warranty if it believes the product is very susceptible to tearing. And you have 2 people (me and NeverThought who has been using it for 2 years) who haven't had any problems.

    Bottom Line: I will continue to bring relevant evidence-based material to readers to help them (being very specific wherever possible).

    @theyareoutthere and mineral oil - Let me be more specific about isolating the bed. If your bed sits on a finished hardwood floor or waxy tiles, I recommend glue trap (TrapperMax) on the bottom (cutting edges as I described) and then sticking a plastic bowl which narrows so glue is exposed on its 4 sides. Stick an empty water chestnut can to the bowl, place leg in bowl, and then pour mineral water halfway up between the edge of the bowl and the can. I'd also apply talc to can above mineral oil level but that is probably not needed. Don't pour the mineral oil where it touches the leg. So long as you check the glue trap for dust, it will be a very rare occurrence when a bedbug even makes it to the mineral oil. I found about 30 bugs on my glue traps and none made it to the next level (ClimbUp at that time) I presume because bites stopped once I isolated bed. If your bed sits on a carpet, it's much more complicated but I would be happy to discuss pro/cons of various isolation scenarios if you'd like.

  34. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 11:30:38
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    Raising Cain - 42 minutes ago  » 
    You and others have expressed concern over rips/tears in encasements and I provided the name of a brand which I researched and would recommend. It received 4.6 out of 5.0 rating on Amazon for 639 respondents, has a patent pending on zipper design, offers a comprehensive 10 year warranty, and publishes the results of the entomologist's tests on its website. The manufacturer has a 4.9 out of 5.0 seller rating. A reputable company like this doesn't offer a 10 year warranty if it believes the product is very susceptible to tearing. And you have 2 people (me and NeverThought who has been using it for 2 years) who haven't had any problems.

    Safe Rest, right? I will say that in my initial bed bug scare/freakout that is also the brand of encasements I purchased (like two years ago). I *think* I found them on Consumers Best Buy or something like that and purchased them because they did have such good reviews and that they were tested at the Snell research facility to be "bed bug" proof.

    This past weekend I finally got around to taking them out of the box and washing them in anticipation of putting them on a bed in my home. They are still not on the bed . . . but I have to say I was very impressed with the quality of the encasement (what I could tell about it anyway). I have no idea how easily they will rip and/or tear once I get them on . . . but, again, was quite impressed with the quality of them (or I guess technically the quality that they appear to be at first glance). I think mine cost quite a bit more than $48 though (not absolutely sure, but I know they were quite a chunk of money, but I bought two box spring encasements and two matress encasements). . . . and when I do put them on the bed, I will still be taking the precaution of duct taping the hard surfaces (metal bed frame) where the box spring encasement will rub and also using felt buffers.

  35. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 12:01:36
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    Hi RC,

    I did read the PCT article on Cimexa and I have been in direct discussions with the author for some time on the differences and a way to actually settle the debate on the modes of actions that has bubbled along since the 1960's. If you have access to an SEM you may be able to contribute something.

    As you asked for evidence based research I would like to draw your attention to this video:

    http://youtu.be/LIDnn34xMNg

    As you can see the bedbug avoids getting such on the glue many times, in fact it continually managed to release itself, groom and wander on. I am not the only one who has observed this, others have with glue based devices and interception type devices.

    Again your refusal to comment of the fact that other approaches are faster, often cheaper and do not have any risk of tearing because it never an issue in the first place. I have plenty of proof that homes and business can resolve bedbug issues without encasement and some of them have been repeat customers since 2009. That would in fact equate to the longest running field trial of bedbug technology to date and has been the source of repeat advances that have enabled us to achieve such great results without the unnecessary expenses your have outlined.

    The reality is that when it comes to universal solutions even the smallest of expenses add up over thousands of homes and that is what is ultimately needed, something cost effective, reliable, simple and low maintenance, bringing us back to the principles of six sigma.

    David

  36. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 16:27:49
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    As you asked for evidence based research I would like to draw your attention to this video

    You used double-sided sticky tape in adhesive form not a glue trap. Regarding sticky tape, here is what I wrote earlier in this thread: "Forget any kind of sticky tape (even gorilla tape)". The only tape I recommended as an optional last level of bed leg protection was the barrier teflon tape (sold at USBedBugs) which was tested by ChangLu. Here is link to test methodology and results:
    http://www.bedbugbarrier.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Efficacy-of-bed-bug-barriers.pdf

    As for glue traps, I've detailed when they are likely to be effective in trapping bugs and when they will repel them. Exterminator Leon Wieler's practice is built around heat sterilization and glue traps so he has a lot of experience in their use. I suggest you read his blog if you want to understand them better; of course, if you don't want to read anything which will shatter your preconceptions then stay away.

    I did read the PCT article on Cimexa and I have been in direct discussions with the author for some time on the differences and a way to actually settle the debate on the modes of actions that has bubbled along since the 1960's.

    Huh, could you be more vague? No more high-level foggers David, be specific here. Tell us exactly what the inhalation risk including silicosis is for that product. And if you choose to cite discussions with PCT authors, be advised I will call them to verify anything you write here.

    enabled us to achieve such great results without the unnecessary expenses your have outlined. The reality is that when it comes to universal solutions even the smallest of expenses add up over thousands of homes and that is what is ultimately needed, something cost effective, reliable, simple and low maintenance, bringing us back to the principles of six sigma.

    First, we only have your word for these "great" results and I suspect they're all for very simple infestations confined to single room like a hotel room. I could pop encasements on, install interceptors or some other form of isolation, and spread a bit of Cimexa for less than $125 and I'd get great results for half your cost. I also would have an encasement which protects me not only against bed bugs but dust mites, allergens, bacteria and maybe prolongs the life of my mattress.

    Second, your approach is not more reliable. Leading experts, the EU Best Practices, etc. all acknowledge it's difficult to achieve 100% kill in the box spring. That's why entomologists/exterminators like Jeff White recommend encasing (also to prevent reinfestation). More generally, it's gonna be tough to be sure you've got all the spots where bedbugs are hiding using steaming alone. Heck, thermal structural heating often does not achieve 100% kill rate. An insecticide dust is far more reliable since it keeps working long after Cain steam team has left.

    Third, the cost to isolate is cheap, about $20 per bed. Didn't you yourself mention a minimum of 2 weeks to resolve cases where dispersal to multiple rooms has occurred? Isolation maybe catches some bugs but definitely protects the residents so they can have a good night's sleep. Most people would pay the 20 bucks. Again I think your concern about repel-and-disperse and isolation is misplaced since strategically placed dust will kill them, most within a day according to PCT study using Cimexa. You've never really responded to this logic. Your alternative is to let the resident be bitten, hope the bug harbors in the box spring, and then hope when you return that the steamer will get it this time.

  37. loubugs

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 16:50:50
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    RC:

    Correction: I mentioned entomologist/exterminator Richard White at BedBugCentral as the person whose video led me to Cimexa; actually his name is Jeff White. I had Richard Cooper who is affiliated with a related company rattling in my brain and mixed the two names.

    Actually Jeff White and Richard Cooper are both from Cooper Pest Management; Rick is currently at Rutgers for Ph.D. work. There actually is a Richard White who is an entomologist and has co-authored on insect field guides among the popular publications.

    Re ClimbUp I don't regard placing leg in can and pouring mineral oil as that complex.

    No, it's not exactly complex at all, but it is (or can be) messy if something goes wrong and oil spills. That's the only reason I like to stay away from oil "mixed" into the monitor or isolation (via climb-up or some other blunder pitfall) type of system. It's not a blunder type system if they are being attracted because of some compound or chemical or potential host.

  38. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 17:46:01
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    Hi RC,

    Sadly the tone of your responses and the fact that you are very clearly here for different reasons to me means I choose to no longer play your game.

    I may ask a few to pop in and confirm they have read testimonials confirming I have cleared 100% infested hotel that have been subjected I various treatments that failed and yet we cleared it in 10 working days with no chemicals or encasements.

    You can choose to continue to question and run down what is said that you disagree with but frankly you have illustrated that you started posting for malicious reasons and as such I would rather concentrate on helping people who need and deserve my help.

    David

  39. Raising Cain

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 2 2014 17:48:03
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    Lou,

    Actually Jeff White and Richard Cooper are both from Cooper Pest Management; Rick is currently at Rutgers for Ph.D. work. There actually is a Richard White who is an entomologist and has co-authored on insect field guides among the popular publications.

    I believe Jeff White works for BedBugCentral which is an actual company not just a website and Richard Cooper works for a sister company Cooper Pest Solutions. I called there once to try to speak to Jeff and that's how it was explained to me. That appears to be borne out on this website: http://www.cooperpest.com/about

    I'm glad I made correction since Richard White is a real person who works in this field. I'd hate to have attributed something erroneously to him.


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