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Still getting bites after three treatments

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  1. Blackbird13

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Mar 22 2017 20:15:47
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    Hello,

    I started getting bitten on 12/26, and got about one bite every week for a few weeks. One day I got six bites and had a PCO inspect my place and they found nothing. A week later they came back to reinspect and found a bed bug, so they began treatment the following week (2/22) and did two successive treatments each of the following two weeks. They used different combinations of pesticides each week, including temprid, phantom and d forse. Between 2/15 and 3/7 I did not get any bites, but on 3/7, 3/14 and 3/21 I got one bite each day. I called the PCO (California American) after I got bitten on 3/14 to ask what they thought I should do. Unfortunately they would not allow me to speak with an actual PC person, and they were only admin people. They said I had either opened an infested bag (I hadn't opened any bags), got it from a neighbor or brought in new bugs somehow, and they were unable to give me any advice about how I should handle it-- they just said it was up to my apartment buildings property management, who tells me it's up to me. Is it possible at this point (two weeks after the last treatment) for the pesticides to still have a residual effect on this defiant bed bug, or do I need to order more treatments? If the latter, do I need to order three more? I will actually be out of town for three weeks from 3/29-4/21, and they wouldn't be able to start the treatments until after I leave. Is that not a good idea, since no one will be home to attract the bed bugs (maybe they will just hide in the walls the whole time to avoid the spray since there is no bait for them to come out)?

    Thank you so much for your help.

  2. Livingagain

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Mar 22 2017 21:32:51
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    I'm not an expert, but I would think that reintroduction would be pretty unlikely. Maybe if it was a neighbor giving them to you, but I would lean toward the sprays not working 100%. Because of resistant bugs sprays can't be relied on to take care of the whole problem. (This is based on research I've seen.) And I think the D-Force is outdated. The others are better. See if you can convince them to put down Cimexa next time (or you can with a paintbrush, with their permission after the spray dries, research the issue or ask more questions).

    It does seem like a waste to have them spray while you're gone. Maybe once if you put an active monitor out. In fact, if I were you I would have them run active monitors whereever there has been activity, while you are gone. Then put the label rate of Cimexa all around the active monitor so the bugs have to cross it to get to the active monitors. Maybe that would kill some and keep them from spreading to neighbors. But you'll probably still need to treat when you get home. Good luck!

  3. KillerQueen

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Mar 22 2017 21:53:41
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    barelyliving - 17 minutes ago  » 
    I'm not an expert, but I would think that reintroduction would be pretty unlikely. Maybe if it was a neighbor giving them to you, but I would lean toward the sprays not working 100%. Because of resistant bugs sprays can't be relied on to take care of the whole problem. (This is based on research I've seen.) And I think the D-Force is outdated. The others are better. See if you can convince them to put down Cimexa next time (or you can with a paintbrush, with their permission after the spray dries, research the issue or ask more questions).
    It does seem like a waste to have them spray while you're gone. Maybe once if you put an active monitor out. In fact, if I were you I would have them run active monitors whereever there has been activity, while you are gone. Then put the label rate of Cimexa all around the active monitor so the bugs have to cross it to get to the active monitors. Maybe that would kill some and keep them from spreading to neighbors. But you'll probably still need to treat when you get home. Good luck!

    You gotta stop repeating the same thing in every post.

    I kill bugs every day with the products that are available on the market. With the exception of Bedlam, I have yet to see product selection, "chemical spray" fail to get rid of them.

    Cimexa - I don't even use it so tell me how is it that I have some of the best results in the industry with the products you state are not working?? You and the others have to stop ... You're not in the field to see what works and doesn't .. It's of no help telling others that they are destined for failure because you read about a bogus lab report.

  4. Livingagain

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 7:34:16
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    You're a class act, John. You help a lot of people, on this board and in real life and I respect you. I also believe that you get the great results that you are talking about. However, in people's real life situations we deal with PCO's that don't have the skills to find exactly where the bugs are harboring, etc. We even regularly on this board have people say that a PCO came in and quickly sprayed baseboards and that was supposed to be their bed bug treatment.

    So I'm going to give people the information from research that I think will help them. I don't see why these respected researchers would create "bogus lab reports". If they were in it for the money, I don't see why they would choose to favor Cimexa-- that comes from a little company. Wouldn't they favor the big co. pesticides that sometimes even pay for the research? Also, I've talked via email with Dr. Changlu Wang of Rutgers and he seems like a very decent, down to earth guy who wants to help people. He is in the projects trying to find the best treatment methods more regularly than someone who was in it for the glory, I would think.

    It actually gives me a lot of comfort that you are getting great results with available chemicals. Maybe there's hope for the millions of people that just call up the neighborhood PCO. But when someone is on here with 3 treatments and still bugs, I'm going to tell them what I've found. Also, I will keep talking about Cimexa (ad nauseum, I'd imagine) because for people in the desperate situation that I was once in, something inexpensive and effective can give them hope.

    So here is some of the research that leads me to believe what I believe.

    Here's a study establishing bed bug resistance to Deltamethrin (the pesticide I said was outdated) clear back in 2008. The fact that someone is still using it, is surprising to me. http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1603/0022-2585%282008%2945%5B1092%3ABAMAOD%5D2.0.CO%3B2

    Here's another study looking at resistance in bed bugs to two of the very best sprays that we currently have http://www.nature.com/articles/srep03836

    Good overall review http://media.syracuse.com/news/other/2015/04/02/IPMbedbugs.pdf

    A study showing how superior Cimexa is https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/109/4/1819/2202018/Comparative-Efficacy-of-Selected-Dust-Insecticides , Here's a magazine summary of another Cimexa study http://www.pctonline.com/article/pct0814-silica-gel-research-bed-bugs/

  5. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 10:07:42
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    barelyliving - 2 hours ago  » 
    seems

    At one stage I might have even agreed with you.

    I am now of a much more enlightened perspective.

    David

  6. Livingagain

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 10:25:09
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    Do you disagree with the results of his studies re: Cimexa? I certainly wouldn't venture into public housing apartments in New Jersey to do treatments on a regular basis if I didn't want to help people.

  7. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 10:49:57
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    Hi,

    The parts of it that are technically not correct yes. I am kind of duty bound to disagree with those.

    As for a persons motives they are often multi factorial and more complex than they first appear.

    Now had you have spoken about Stephen Kell's who I know has been touched deeply by some of what he has seen to the point where it is hard to communicate with others I would agree with you but somehow some people always manage to find the results that suit the narrative of their funders.

    More than once I have seen this result in academics becoming bedfellows with things we know do not work and on a few occasions they have not even been able to be honest when they were called out over it.

    David

  8. KillerQueen

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 13:57:18
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    barelyliving - 6 hours ago  » 
    You're a class act, John. You help a lot of people, on this board and in real life and I respect you. I also believe that you get the great results that you are talking about. However, in people's real life situations we deal with PCO's that don't have the skills to find exactly where the bugs are harboring, etc. We even regularly on this board have people say that a PCO came in and quickly sprayed baseboards and that was supposed to be their bed bug treatment.
    So I'm going to give people the information from research that I think will help them. I don't see why these respected researchers would create "bogus lab reports". If they were in it for the money, I don't see why they would choose to favor Cimexa-- that comes from a little company. Wouldn't they favor the big co. pesticides that sometimes even pay for the research? Also, I've talked via email with Dr. Changlu Wang of Rutgers and he seems like a very decent, down to earth guy who wants to help people. He is in the projects trying to find the best treatment methods more regularly than someone who was in it for the glory, I would think.
    It actually gives me a lot of comfort that you are getting great results with available chemicals. Maybe there's hope for the millions of people that just call up the neighborhood PCO. But when someone is on here with 3 treatments and still bugs, I'm going to tell them what I've found. Also, I will keep talking about Cimexa (ad nauseum, I'd imagine) because for people in the desperate situation that I was once in, something inexpensive and effective can give them hope.
    So here is some of the research that leads me to believe what I believe.
    Here's a study establishing bed bug resistance to Deltamethrin (the pesticide I said was outdated) clear back in 2008. The fact that someone is still using it, is surprising to me. http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1603/0022-2585%282008%2945%5B1092%3ABAMAOD%5D2.0.CO%3B2
    Here's another study looking at resistance in bed bugs to two of the very best sprays that we currently have http://www.nature.com/articles/srep03836
    Good overall review http://media.syracuse.com/news/other/2015/04/02/IPMbedbugs.pdf
    A study showing how superior Cimexa is https://academic.oup.com/jee/article-abstract/109/4/1819/2202018/Comparative-Efficacy-of-Selected-Dust-Insecticides , Here's a magazine summary of another Cimexa study http://www.pctonline.com/article/pct0814-silica-gel-research-bed-bugs/

    Like you said - A bad PCO!! That doesn't mean the products failed - the exterminator did.

    Back in my day I used to be a automotive/heavy equipment mechanic. Like then - a bad mechanic blamed his tools - and the rest got things fixed. I fixed things!

    I'm not saying Cimexa doesn't work - just about every dust works.

    So if you want to help people - help them find better exterminators instead of blaming products that work in the real world of bed bug treatments. A guy coming in and "spraying around for a few minutes" is not a bed bug treatment. It's a scam.

  9. Livingagain

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 14:28:54
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    @Killerqueen, but some tools are better than others. I wish there was a way for all us consumers to insist on good PCO's, but they just don't exist in some places and there's no way to judge if experience=quality, or if the ratings on yelp are legit, etc. And people facing spreading this to their loved ones don't have time to sort it all out. I think the research about the bugs being more and more resistant to sprays is accurate, but I'll try to be more nuanced in my telling it to people.

  10. Livingagain

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 14:35:34
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    @David I trust the Cimexa research, Dr. Potter's research backs it up separately, too. I'd have to agree with you that some people's motives are more complex than they appear, but my experience with Dr. Wang and the things I've read about him were positive. And anyway, his research has been duplicated with the same results.

  11. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Mar 23 2017 15:07:54
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    @barelyliving I am not saying there are flaws in the experimental design on this occasion but there are non the less omissions in the two papers and I believe they make the same common error derived from the fact that they have accepted information as being accurate when further research into the area reveals what the truth actually is.

    I am a huge fan of Prof Potter and I really like 99% of what he has done.

    However, something akin to the Sunshine Act should apply to pest control presentations in the same way that it does medical presentations because on almost all occasions the vital piece of information of who has funded the academic to say nice things is missing. I can name several technologies that academics say nice things about which are hated as failures in the field. The name of one of those recidivists has already come up in this discussion, the other two main ones have started to stop doing it because the speaking offers usually dry up.

    In fact if you look at who had nice things to say about:

    • NightWatch
    • Verify
    • Cedarcide
    • Activeguard

    Not only does this make things harder for servicing companies, it also makes it harder on consumers because many pest controllers still believe what they are told by their suppliers as if they were the ten commandments.

    I am 100% behind better tools for PCO's and consumers but when a mistruth is taught as fact we all loose unless you have the skepticism and time to fact check.

    David


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