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ThermaPure Heat treatment went terribly, next step?

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  1. BuggyinLA

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 1:16:08
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    I live in a tiny studio apartment in LA and had a ThermaPure Heat treatment provided by Precision Environmental yesterday. After the inspection last week they seemed like a great company - they claimed they could treat our wood floors (where the bugs are likely hiding in HUGE cracks), walls, numerous bags of contaminated clothing from previous failed spray preparations, and our wood furniture. Their very confident salesman told us that our electronics would be safe, that the heat was a low 150 and slow - perfect to kill bugs without any damage to our belongings. Best of all, they claimed to have a 100% kill 30 day guarantee! So after meticulously combing our apartment for candles and aresol cans, and moving our bagged clothes back into the closets (per Precision's instructions), two guys from precision showed up to treat 3 different units in the building. They claimed that anything we cared about should be removed from the apartment- suddenly we had to decide if our laptops and antiques were safe. We tried to stay calm and left.

    Twelve hours later we came home to find the company still there. Our apartment was "done" but they were still there working on one of the other "severely infested" units. We walked into an apartment that was largely untouched beyond the bed. Some walls were warm at random, but most everything was cold. Two candles that we had accidentally left upside-down were un-melted. The apartment was not rifled through at all - it was dirty, but it didn't seem like anyone had walked around checking internal temperatures.

    Not more than 20 minutes after entering the apartment I saw a bug bed run across the bed. ON THE BED. Assuming that they did bother to point a heater at the bed, our best guess is that the floors and infested clothes were left untouched, so the bugs just crawled back after the heat treatment.

    In my panic I squashed the bug, so although I was able to get the technician back into the apartment he didn't believe that there really had been a bedbug. He said that when they were heating there had not been any bugs running around, there was "no visible activity," and therefore they could do nothing. He suggested that we wash all of our clothes again (even though the inspector has explicitly stated that we would not need to wash any clothes. I caught another live bug about an hour later.

    So, what's next? I have no idea really. Our management company has decided that Precision can't really solve the problem and that heat won't work, so although they are Precision's client (and I am not), they are uninterested in pushing Precision to do more. Although management is being accommodating their current plan is to have Precision come back in a few weeks and have us move to another building while treating all of our belongings in a PackTite.

    I'm looking into the future and all I can see is lost work time, bugs, and living out of an empty apartment. Any advice on advocating that Precision live up to their original 100% claim would be greatly appreciated. We're certainly looking into vikane treatment, and any SoCal experiences regarding that would be great too. We spoke with Lloyd's in Anaheim and they seem like they seem sure that vikane will work, but Precision also claimed that they could solve all of our problems so I'm very skeptical. HELP!

  2. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 2:32:10
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    I just don't understand why your landlord would pay for a treatment with a 100% kill 30 day guarantee and then when the problem was not solved, would not insist they honor it. Thermal is expensive. I would pressure the landlord on this one first of all.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  3. nervousaboutbedbugs

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 11:41:58
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    We had thermal treatment in September, twice actually. Thermal seems to be a great tool for killing bedbugs, but I've heard from quite a few people on this forum that required more than one treatment. I think there are a lot of new people getting into the field and it takes a while to learn the 'art' of heating a home or apartment. If I had it to do over, I would have gone Vikane.

    When our thermal provider came back a second time, I was very careful to walk them through the house and show them all of the areas I was concerned about (bins of clothes, etc.). I also showed them the places where the bug dogs had alerted to. During treatment I came home several times to check in. Although it's hot, you should be allowed in to check temp sensors if you request it. I did that not so much because I didn't trust my provider but because I was curious as to how the process was going.

    To be honest, I'm still not sure if the 2nd treatment was successful, but I'm more hopeful this time around. After the first treatment, my daughters were definitely still bitten - this time around there are still some bumps, but no huge welts.

    One caution, though... on the 2nd treatment, I suspect the provider upped the temperature to insure success, and there was a bit more damage. We have a set of Hitchcock dining chairs and the glue seams between the wood seats changed colors, probably weakening the chairs. We also had a wax seal in one of our toilets start to leak after the treatment. In our minds, these were prices worth paying if the treatment actually worked.

    Good luck - I hope your landlord gets them back in there for you!

  4. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 12:14:56
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    I had thermal treatment from Hydrex back in June 2008.

    This is the second account I've heard from someone in the greater Los Angeles metro area of a thermal treatment that as described doesn't sound like it was done properly. (Unfortunately, the previous person who complained about thermal did not name his or her PCO, so I can't tell anyone if it's the same company or not.)

    It is possible that the provider didn't think your unit was esp. infested.

    Nobugs is absolutely right on this. For what the landlord likely shelled out for treatment, I would think the landlord would be the person concerned with making sure the company lives up to their guarantee.

    The candles that weren't melted are a big red flag for me. I had several tapered candles in my kitchen that I missed that melted into giant pools of wax.

    On the other hand, I did have a few votive candles in the bedroom that were in candle shaped plastic casings (a box of votive candles in a drawer I had forgotten about). Even though I know my bedroom got plenty hot, those candles didn't melt. So I wouldn't say the unmelted candles are a total giveaway that things weren't done properly. (The bug crawling across the bed, on the other hand, is).

    In the event that there is a reheat, I can offer this about electronics:

    unplug everything electronic. My TiVos both bit the dust because the PCO neglected to tell me to unplug them.

    I personally wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my laptop in during treatment because it's a pretty expensive item and unlikely to have bugs in it in my case (I almost never use it on my bed at home, and at the time of my infestation, I hadn't ever had it in the bedroom.) In severe infestations, bed bugs will sometimes get inside electronics, but it's not as common as you might think.

    If your laptop is older, less expensive, and/or something you could live with replacing, it would probably be okay inside during treatment IF you removed the battery before treatment.

    Short of electronic items with thermal safety switches (I lost an old microwave because its touchpad couldn't sense my fingers any longer and a few old surge protectors--the best guess on both is that it was thermal sensitivity switches or devices that the thermal fried), electronic items that are totally and completely unplugged with batteries removed should be okay IF the thermal provider doesn't raise the temp too much.

    Hope that helps.

    Oh, and also: I don't think all items would be treated with a PackTite. A Packtite is only about the size of a roll aboard suit case.

    They may put items in a container like a truck and heat the truck, but it would take much too long to packtite a whole apartment's worth of materials one load at a time.

  5. elias2000

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 12:38:56
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    BuggyinLA: very sorry that something seemed to have gone wrong. It is extremely unusual and absolutely not acceptable. I'll make sure we look into it immediately.

    As for electronics... smaller electronics that can be susceptible to heat are normally removed. If not, the provider should be covering them (and the larger electronics) with thermal blankets.

    Alan Elias
    ThermaPure

  6. watkinsnewan

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 13:03:32
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    NOW That is service from a respectable company.....
    Hope every thing works out..

  7. BuggyinLA

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Nov 7 2009 13:52:33
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    Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone. I'm sure we'll be back to this thread soon with more questions for all of you; the combined experience of this forum is invaluable.

    We've PMed Alan Elias (Elias2000) from ThermaPure with our contact information, so we'll see how that goes and report back to you all with the results!

    NervousAboutBedBugs: What thermal provider did you go with, if you don't mind me asking? (You're welcome to PM us.)

    BuggyInSoCal: Is there a specific PCO/specialist at Hydrex that you would recommend that we contact whom you liked? I can PM you or you can PM me to discuss further privately.

    Elias2000: We PMed you with our contact information. Since we've reached out to the Precision Environmental/ThermaPure representative that did our initial inspection/sales pitch and haven't heard from him yet, we'd absolutely LOVE to speak with you or someone else directly about how to resolve this situation. Thank you for reaching out to us on the forums and we hope to speak with you soon.

  8. colddigits

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Nov 25 2009 20:07:34
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    I am going insane with bed bud bites -- I have sprayed myself, had a PCO spray (apt. building) and vacuumed and washed with hot water and dryed in dryers so hot you can't touch the clothes for some time after done tumbling. My right eye is swollen shut with bites -- I have a very bad reaction to any kind of insect bites -- if I move out to get away, do I have to throw everything I own out??

  9. BuggyinLA

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Nov 25 2009 20:18:53
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    Updates from BuggyInLA, who is sad and itchy, about our continued saga with Precision Environmental: http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/updates-on-failed-precision-environmental-heat-treatment-from-buggyinla

  10. Winston O. Buggy

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Nov 27 2009 15:59:56
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    While thermal is still a work in progress for bed bug control which we all hope will continue to be more affordable and feasible, there is no room for sloppy workmanship or applications or failure to follow directions..

  11. BuggyinLA

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Dec 16 2009 0:31:06
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    I completely agree, Winston.

    And to add an update from our end on ThermaPure and the Precision Environmental heat treatment process...

    We haven't heard anything from them for more than two weeks now regarding the heat damage sustained to our personal belongings. On top of that, we never heard anything back from them about checking neighboring units for infestation, which they themselves suggested -- since our apartment is STILL infested following two heat treatments from Precision Environmental. (They claim it's "reinfestation," but have failed to take any action to substantiate this. Can reinfestation happen in all of three days?)

    I call them every day. And every day I wait to hear back from anyone with their company about our claim only to be disappointed.

    Now we're going with a new PCO and doing Vikane at our cost. Fingers-crossed for a better result.

  12. BuggyinLA

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Dec 16 2009 0:33:54
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    Oh, and for those that are curious, Elias2000 (Alan of ThermaPure), hasn't gotten back to us either.

    So much for "great customer service" from ThermaPure.

  13. zerg_infestor

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon May 17 2010 19:25:34
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    sounds like your company is awesome! Too bad I'm in AZ though. Your treatment plan sounds like mine! Inspect, Clear as much visible bugs as possible and then line the perimeter and bed area (for me I laid down Phantom). They have to have a blood meal so eventually they'll cross and 10 days later they're dead.

    My room is is a lot better now. Thursday will be the 10th day and the bites have dramatically decreased. TBH my room was easy to treat though b/c it has very little clutter and almost empty closet. The one I'm worried about is the living room. I did the perimeter today and I did the couch, I found my very 1st egg and found feces on it too, too bad it already hatched though.

  14. Outoutd-bug

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Jul 5 2010 13:51:46
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    I am trying to find a reputable PCO in my area. I am new to this forum, and I am very impressed by diampc and other PCO's whose posts I have read. Anyone know a company they would recommend in Colorado.

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Jul 5 2010 14:12:13
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    Outoutd-bug - 17 minutes ago  » 
    I am trying to find a reputable PCO in my area. I am new to this forum, and I am very impressed by diampc and other PCO's whose posts I have read. Anyone know a company they would recommend in Colorado.

    Hi Outoutd-bug,

    You posted your request on an old thread about a failed thermal treatment. People are not likely to see it here. Please start your own new thread labeled appropriately ("Colorado PCOs"?) and paste this in there. You're more likely to get responses.

    You can also look for threads tagged Colorado as some may be relevant.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Jul 5 2010 14:45:21
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    Outoutd-bug,

    You have a private message. Click the link in the sidebar to read it.

  17. Beth

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Sun Aug 8 2010 12:31:18
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    diampc--

    hope you are right. I was chemically treated with Phantom and though I wiped it off my bedroom floor after a few days (really sick) it is still everywhere else and the bugs actually don't bite me in my bedroom since I isolated my bed. I am counting on the Phantom to do them in and using DE in the big cracks in my bedroom floor. However...in that 7-10 days it takes to kill them they can have babies, can't they!? So ostensibly if even two eggs hatched in the first week after sprays, and those two had bed bug sex before they died and laid 5 eggs (which is how many they lay in just one day), and they all hatched and two survived and had bed bug sex. Well, you see, after the Phantom wears off you have a major problem again. I can see how even multiple applications of this stuff sometimes doesn't work. I know after they doused my place, at least 5 or 6 demons survived, and that's enough to cause havoc, when considering the eggs as well which you cannot vacuum out of the crevices. You must really hunt well that's my opinion. Because I think such chemical applications only work if the harborages are found and destroyed. Most pco's don't actually ever find the major harborages in light-moderate infestations. They just come in and spray the walls and baseboards and call it a day. Heck, I can't even find exactly where they are and I know where to look and look everyday (though I have my suspicions now).

    peace-
    Amy

  18. Vickytoria3112

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Aug 10 2010 10:07:49
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    colddigits - 8 months ago  » 
    I am going insane with bed bud bites -- I have sprayed myself, had a PCO spray (apt. building) and vacuumed and washed with hot water and dryed in dryers so hot you can't touch the clothes for some time after done tumbling. My right eye is swollen shut with bites -- I have a very bad reaction to any kind of insect bites -- if I move out to get away, do I have to throw everything I own out??

    If you decide to move then yes I would throw everything away. But please dispose of your property in a way so that other people don't come and take them thinking they are free. Spray paint all the mattresses and sofas with the words "Bed Bugs." Try and see if you can find plastic to wrap them in if you can. All clothing put in plastic bags and close it tightly and write bed bugs on the bag with marker (pen may make a whole it in) and if the bag is black, then use the markers people use on their car windows when they are going to sell them. Just make sure it doesn't spread around to an unsuspecting family.

  19. Vickytoria3112

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Aug 10 2010 10:11:42
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    Beth - 1 day ago  » 
    diampc--
    hope you are right. I was chemically treated with Phantom and though I wiped it off my bedroom floor after a few days (really sick) it is still everywhere else and the bugs actually don't bite me in my bedroom since I isolated my bed. I am counting on the Phantom to do them in and using DE in the big cracks in my bedroom floor. However...in that 7-10 days it takes to kill them they can have babies, can't they!? So ostensibly if even two eggs hatched in the first week after sprays, and those two had bed bug sex before they died and laid 5 eggs (which is how many they lay in just one day), and they all hatched and two survived and had bed bug sex. Well, you see, after the Phantom wears off you have a major problem again. I can see how even multiple applications of this stuff sometimes doesn't work. I know after they doused my place, at least 5 or 6 demons survived, and that's enough to cause havoc, when considering the eggs as well which you cannot vacuum out of the crevices. You must really hunt well that's my opinion. Because I think such chemical applications only work if the harborages are found and destroyed. Most pco's don't actually ever find the major harborages in light-moderate infestations. They just come in and spray the walls and baseboards and call it a day. Heck, I can't even find exactly where they are and I know where to look and look everyday (though I have my suspicions now).
    peace-
    Amy

    Amy

    Bed bugs molt. Meaning in order to grow they need to shed their outer shell and that alone has to be after a blood meal. Bed bugs mature between 1-2 months. Get them before that time and they won't have time to have bed bug sex and multiply. But be careful. They may migrate to another bedroom or worse, your sofas.

  20. Richard56

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Fri Aug 27 2010 6:32:57
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    If you cant find a company that you can trust, get hold of BASF (the folks that make Phantom) or Bayer, (the folks that make Temprid) .
    --------------------------
    I don't believe Temprid is labled for bed bugs in New York State, someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. What would you recommend as an alternative?

  21. xmark

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Oct 27 2010 23:08:02
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    for diampc - I DON'T TRUST ANYONE WHO WRITES "TRUST ME" IN BOLD AND CAPS AND CLAIMS TO NEVER FAIL IN THOUSANDS OF TIMES???

    Also, he or she did 3,000 bed bug jobs, that means that they did a bed bug job every working day for the last 12 years (5 days a week for 50 weeks). Oh wait, the post indicated 6 to 7 years, so that would be about 2 bed bug jobs a day, every working day for 6 years. I guess that there are no roaches, ants nor termites on the planet where diampc lives. ANYBODY BUYING THAT???

    If you even take the time to read the product labels of the products that you are talking about, you would know that the Phantom label reads - DO NOT make surface applications to mattresses.

    Also, the Temprid label reads: Re-Apply • Every 7 to 10 days, if needed. I doubt that Bayer will be critical of a PCO that follows the label.

    I don't mind using pesticides outside and even inside on a rare occasion, but I read the Phantom label and it was developed for Termites and looks really nasty. I also read the Temprid label and I don't want either one of those on my bed, box spring, headboard, carpet, or anywhere else in my room. I would be breathing in that stuff with every breath, every night? Give Me Heat.

  22. BedbugThermal

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Nov 2 2010 15:19:22
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    I must agree that technique is of the utmost importance, whether using conventional chemicals or any other approach. As owner of a thermal treatment company, I'm obviously in the camp that thinks heat is the most effective treatment, but it's still only as good as the technicians running the treatments.

    Here's a link that might be helpful. It lists service providers that use Thermal Remediation equipment from Temp-Air: http://www.thermalremediation.com/bed-bugs/find-a-service.aspx

    I truly believe they make the best heat system available (yeah, I'm a little biased I guess).

    Cheers,
    Paul Eckebrecht
    Bedbug Thermal Solutions

  23. Heat Treat Scam

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Fri Nov 19 2010 1:19:26
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    Sorry if you do not believe me xmark but, I do between 2 and 6 bed bug jobs every single working day of my life and, I have done so for the last 5+ years. (it was not that bad 7 or 8 years ago but, it is now) TRUST ME!!! You are also wrong about the product lable. You CAN (TRUST ME!) apply it to the tufts, folds and crevices. That is where the bed bugs live so, it works fine. Why you would try to tell an 18 year vet that he does not know what he is talking about is beyond me. I'm just trying to help these folks take care of a problem. They are not that hard to get rid of if you do as many as I do 220 days a year.

    220x2x5=2200 or, if you like... 220x6x5=6600

    I have not kept track but, I am sure it is in the thousands.

    Oh! By the way, it is true that there are tons of roaches, ants and other insects. I happen to be the bed bug specialist in my company as well as the manager. I was forced to do nearly ALL of the bed bug jobs because it takes someone with special skills to do this work. The other 13 technicians in our company take care of the other pests.

    TRUST ME!!!!

  24. Heat Treat Scam

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    Posted 8 years ago
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    In addition XMARK, if you knew a thing about the chemistry of neonicitinoids you would realize that mammals do not have the same protein receptors that insects have and therefore it is impossible for us to become sick from the proper use of these products. Lacking the protein that cleaves off the part of the molecule that causes this material to become active, humans can't even activate it. As for the pyrethroid that is combined with the neonic in Temprid, they are synthetic copies of pyrethrins that occur naturally in the chrysanthemum. You like flowers? I'm just trying to give the folks SAFE methods of control. That's all. TRUST ME!!!!

  25. Heat Treat Scam

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    Fri Nov 19 2010 1:47:05
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    RESEARCH TRIANGLE PARK, N.C. – Bayer Environmental Science has announced that the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has approved the addition of bed bug control to the Temprid SC Insecticide label.

    In response to the industry's growing demand for a fast, effective solution against bed bugs — especially those strains that have shown resistance to pyrethroids — Bayer worked diligently to expedite the addition of bed bugs to the Temprid SC Insecticide label.

    "We're thrilled to deliver a new weapon in the fight against bed bugs to the industry, especially at a time when infestations are on the rise nationwide," said Eric Lentz, general insect control marketing manager for Bayer.

    The speed of control many pest management professionals (PMPs) have experienced with Temprid SC for ants and perimeter pests can be applied to bed bugs, including resistant strains. Temprid's fusion of imidacloprid and beta-cyfluthrin provides faster bed bug control than competitive pyrethroid products, Bayer reports.

    Temprid also provides a long-lasting residual, controlling resistant bed bugs for more than 30 days, even on fabrics where many other products have failed, according to Bayer. In addition, Temprid kills bed bug eggs when applied as a direct treatment and, more surprisingly, dried residues prevent eggs from hatching.

    "Helping PMPs overcome their toughest control problems without sacrificing their business’ profitability is all part of the Backed by Bayer promise," Lentz said.

    Temprid SC already has a flexible indoor and outdoor use label for control of ants and other pests, but now it can also be applied to the places bed bugs like to hide, including mattresses, box springs, headboards, bed frames, furniture, upholstery, curtains, picture frames and carpet edges.

    and if you know anything about neonics and pys you will know that these materials are harmless when used as dirrected by the EPA. (and let me tell you, these folks are tough when it comes to registering insecticides xmark)

  26. Heat Treat Scam

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    Posted 8 years ago
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    It is sad that people these days have such a fear of insecticides. There is no need for this. The chemistries are so targeted that many of them won't even kill insects other than the ones that they are targeted for, let alone humans. DuPont just came out with a termiticide called Altriset. This stuff is so safe that the EPA told them it did not need a signal word (Caution, Hazard or Danger. Look at the things you wash your clothes in. Hmmmm.) on the label and, the label even states that it "will not cause harm to humans". (Again. Look at the things you wash your clothes in.) This is a breakthrough in insecticides. The fact of the matter is, neonics are all safe. Altriset is so target specific that it won't even kill ants which are very closely related to termites. People have to realize that insecticides are just not what they once were. THEY ARE BETTER!! and, the cool thing is, they are not harmful to humans. Sure! If you bought an expensive heat rig, that you have to pay for, you are going to try to sell FEAR to your customers but, you are not being honest or, you are uninformed about how these chemistries work. If you are selling heat because you think it works better... Fine. I respectfully disagree and, that is based on lots of experience to the contrary. Nothing against it. I just feel it is important to keep the cost down and not compromise safety. The materials that we have today are not the toxic garbage of 50 years ago. Get with the times.

  27. Heat Treat Scam

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    The only thing that makes me sick from insecticides is the fact that people don't realize how far advanced they are from a safety aspect. You would have to drink a tanker truck full of the modern stuff to kill just 50% of those exposed to those levels. Look at the LD50 and prove to me that they can make you sick. I'm talking about the post 1990's stuff. Don't try to give me grief about OP's, DDT or Chloridaine. Those things are long gone and, none of them worked as well as the SAFE things we use now. I wouldn't use them if they were free. They never worked as good as what we have now and, today's products are safe. Yes! I said it. Safe! The ppm that you you have to consume is far beyond what is even possible. These products save lives. They don't kill people. Nor can they even make you sick. We gotta get over this. Heck, DuPont even makes the packaging for their products GREEN!

  28. spideyjg

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  29. nwreader

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    um, wow. I really hope the "the packaging is even green!" comment is a joke.

    There's a place for pesticides in the world, but most simply are best avoided whenever possible.

    The LD50 is quite different from studies of carcinogenicity. Just because it won't kill me today, doesn't mean it won't kill me in 20 years.

    There are dozens, if not hundreds of articles linking pesticides to illnesses, and I have seen posters here talk of using organophosphates in their homes against bedbugs. OPs are regularly used in agriculture to this day.

    Natural doesn't equal safe, as millions of asbestos workers can attest. Well, they could if they weren't dead.

  30. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Fri Nov 19 2010 3:02:25
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    Heat Treat Scam, gordie691 and diampc are all apparently the same person. The four posts above by gordie691 and diampc have now been deleted.

    This multiple identity issue became apparent when Heat Treat Scam became upset because of something XMARK said to diampc. (Hmmm.)

    Heat Treat Scam,

    You've now posted nine messages to this thread (nearly 1/3 of the messages here) under three usernames, and it may seem like there are a lot more people participating than there actually are, because you are three of them!

    I also deleted 5 identical posts from the Heat Treat Scam username tonight on other threads. That is spam. Do not spam the forums. Please see your email.

    In addition, please do NOT keep starting new accounts. If you lose your password, click the forgot password link or PM or email me (nobugs at bedbugger dot com) if you need help.

    Finally, please get off your soapbox.

    If you are obsessed with how heat treatment is a scam and pesticides are way better, we got it. Give it a rest. You're welcome to post here but no one wants to listen to someone on a soapbox rant.

    It's nothing personal, it would not matter to me what the rant was.

    Pesticides can work, but are not the be-all and end-all. Same for heat treatment.

    Sorry if you disagree, but as someone who is offering his services in one of those treatment modalities, you obviously have a bias.

  31. Nobugsonme

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    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,252

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Fri Nov 19 2010 15:06:24
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    Previous message edited to reflect new developments.


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