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Need Hope...tears again, $3000.00 later...continued bites

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  1. crazyindenver

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 13:14:07
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    It took me 6 weeks after discovery to be able to read on this forum without feeling that my life is over!
    I am a mother, wife, daughter to a family who loves me very much.

    In late Jan. I discovered the reason for all the itchy welts on my body and my 3 children's bodies. I first want to say, to much amazement and frustration...there have never been any LIVE bugs found...anywhere.

    I live in a single family home. My parents live in a assisted living comm. We may have given the bugs to them, or they gave them to us. Either way, it's a problem for both of us (whole 'nother story there).

    My first jaunt into the extermination world was(Feb. 8th) with a company that I feel was unethical and treated my single family home poorly. They had a dog come in that alerted to nothing. They didn't want to have the dog check my family room couch or chairs, just the bed rooms. He told me the dog couldn't work more than 20 minutes for an alert. He then checked rooms and didn't find anything, but decided to spray something(at my insistence) inbetween the cracks and my carpeted bedroom and put some dust down sporadically on the carpet and in the box springs and bed frame of my king bed He said it was a pyrethoid. He then did ONE childs room at my request. He left ...I paid $700.00.

    After this visit, I went and bought my first set of 12!....yes 12! encasements for my beds (6) ...total $920.00. Each box spring roughly depending on size of bed, $80.00 and same exact amounts for mattress covers/ea..

    Then for my peice of mind.....bought new sets of sheets for all beds x2 sets....ALL WHITE!!!!!!!! I LOVE WHITE!!! MY NEW FAVORITE COLOR... $$$$ ..ching ching.... another $500.00. (albeit, my choice).

    Enviropest....Said they would be back in 2 weeks to retreat, and when they returned, said there were no bugs found and that they would have to CHARGE me again for treatment...they brought a specialist in there "education" dept. with them to "talk" with me. (I'm thinking maybe they thought I was a client that needed to be convinced I didn't have BB).

    I told them I have the bites, the fecal stains, the blood stains large ones from squashing a bug in the night, or little ones in lines on my sheets and my children's sheets and molted skins for proof! They stood there and told me it was something else( I felt kind of insulted, but was liking what I was hearing, for hopes sake).

    I insisted they re-treat my children's rooms and I would wait and see with mine. They charged me another @335.00 and had me sign a disclaimer that I understood they were not responsible for any retreating at their expense. They took my check and left. I thanked them profusely and was so at piece with their little "pep talk". I believed all was well. Remember, my mind set was a woman of desperation and and seeking any hope!

    A week after they(..have more unethical stuff on them, but am lengthy enough at this point) left we were all still getting bites (still really small ones in rows, so close sometimes they look like a scratch) My husband however, doesn't seem to have a reaction...... except about the money flying out of our account. There goes our summer vacation or if this keeps up, our next months grocery bill! He's about at the end of his rope, but still supportive.

    I went to my Dr. and at that point...got on Paxil (anti depressant)and Xanax (xanax, only to be able to get into bed at night!) and have been coping better since. More importantly a better mom and wife!

    The pep talk as you can imagine with bites continuing wore off quickly(shocker!) and I started to get angry about being "taken". So I decided to call Terminix.

    Their first visit was March 10th. $800.00 for Cryo freeze/rapid freeze of ALL furniture in home along with a pyrethoid treatment. My first inspector was on his hands and knees for 5 hours in my home! Yes 5! He found a dead bug! Amen! Such validation! Where you ask did he find it? Underneath the couch, after ripping off the dust cover, under a small flap of stapled upolstery (sp?)fabric.

    Again, nothing on beds (which are covered etc.).....he pyrethoided (I know that's not a real word) the house with a spray cannister (walking around, not fogging) and was very thorough. He said another treatment would be done in a week as follow up.

    My and my kids bites escalated like they had told us may happen after a treatment. They did! Bummer. I called on the monday after Terminix came for the 1st treatment about the continued bites...and as many of you know..patience isn't a word in the BB world that we can quite get our heads around...but I'm trying.

    2nd treatment March, 17th(found skins molted on a red chair next to couch in family room). Again, fanatastic tech!! No other signs. And rememeber, every time Terminix comes...they are treating my ENTIRE house and furniture. No additional charges. (for 30 days if no encasements for beds are bought). SO on this 2nd visit..they decided to Fog the house. With Foggers...they do ALL rooms of the home (ie. living, family, basement, bed, office etc.)

    Still got bites that following week after their 2nd treatment..albeit a bit slower for all of us. I called about them, and they came again...did another fog last Thursday march 23rd. One thing my tech mentioned...he said, if you could remove all the bagged clothing (we are living out of bags for 3 weeks) (terminix has quite a prep list), AND most importantly, in your closets...bag and remove the hanging clothes in the rooms, he could do a more thorough fogging. He told me for safety purposes and strict guidelines that he has to follow, that clothing be contained. Well, that visit he fogged again, just not as strong as he could have. I didn't have time to remove the clothes from closets and contain them.

    Here we are to today, I'll throw in a few more costly (my choice) endeavors....drycleaned all husbands suits and down comforters ($375.00) and bought all Terminix's encasements for all beds (took old ones off....just made my garanteed better with Terminix ...another $450.00. OUCH!

    I am about to call for the thorough fogging again for this thursday March 31st. This time all clothing will be protected. We are still all getting bit and I truly an losing my mind on so many levels. I felt it was cathartic to tell "my story"...it is also comforting to know that many many others out there in BB cyber world understand. Thank you, thank you, if you have made it this far in my story.

    If you have personal experience or are an exterminator adding to this blog as support, please tell me that I am on the right track. Can it really take 3 or 4 foggings to get rid of these terrible things(We stay out of the house for 6 hours after fogging) to kill them? I have done everything that I have read on this blog. I will say, 2 of my children have head boards, aluminum hollow style (Pyrethoid dusted up in there) and my other child has an solid iron bed. .

    They all have a bed frames. Should I through away mine and the other 2 tradition wheel based bed frames? could they be hanging on in there with all that poison? It seems like this pyrethoid (*wet) and fogging stuff is everywhere. I can see it.....could they be that resistant? I just need some thoughts on where? where? where? are they coming from??? Every peice of furniture in our rooms has no signs of them. We barely sit on the red chair anymore and nobody sits on the couch.....???? Oh...(sigh) Despair...need hope to continue....please help. Hugs to you all!

  2. bbgirl

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 13:36:35
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    My heart goes out to you with all you have been through - it's very invasive - not only the bugs but having a procession of techs going through your house. I truly hope that your ordeal is close to over...I am considering having a pco in.....have you or your children had any ill effects from all of the chemicals that they have been using? How long have they recommended that you stay out of the house after spraying?

  3. cilecto

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 14:56:56
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    This does not sound like professional behavior, from refusal to do a follow-up, to use of foggers. But a more fundamental question. Did you and the pros identify definitive signs of bed bugs (not some other insect) in your home (not elsewhere). Other than that one dead bug in the couch, did anyone identify live bed bugs, bed bug shells, eggs or fecal spots?

    I know you've been through hell, but please review this site's FAQ and a guide from the Resources page, like this one. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/emergingdiseases/Bed_Bug_Manual_v1_full_reduce_326605_7.pdf These will empower you to be a more confident bed bug warrior. And be sure to hit us with your questions and gripes. We have your back.

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  4. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 15:11:26
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    crazyindenver,

    I am so sorry you have been suffering with bed bugs for so long, and for the discomfort, hassle and expense involved. You're in the right place, we know how stressful and awful this can be.

    I'm not an expert, but we're generally told that aerosol foggers and bombs are not a good treatment methodology where bed bugs are concerned. This FAQ explains why. It cites experts such as Steven Doggett and Michael Potter, and refers you to more information outside of this website.

    Before you panic, it's possible that there are exceptions (as the FAQ notes), so it would be helpful to know the product that's being used in your case. Terminex should be able to tell you. I think PCOs are supposed to leave documentation of what they used to treat when they leave. If you have a receipt perhaps it's there.

    That said, I am surprised to hear a large pest control firm such as this is using this method and that they're about to do it for the third time.

    Please look and see if you can find the name of the product, and then some professionals may be able to comment. I would definitely encourage you to learn more about what's being done and get some expert input if possible before they do this again on Thursday.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  5. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 15:31:28
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    How many molted skins do you have, were they found anywhere but that one chair or any time but that once, and who identified them? Have you encased the sofa that had the dead bug?

    Have you put BB Alert or ClimbUp passive monitors under your beds?

    What do the little blood stains in lines look like?

  6. cilecto

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 16:03:12
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    Denver. Just to make it clear. We're asking you these questions because too many consumers have been led down a rabbit hole by inept or unscrupulous operators. If this is your case (ie, it's something other than BB in your home), it's not your fault, the sooner we're on the way to a solution to whatever the real problem is.

  7. crazyindenver

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 18:30:46
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    THANK YOU...so much for seeing me out here in cyber world. Just your acknowledgement is a "feel good" to me, considering my situation.

    TO: SUPERCALIFRAGIL.......I am seeing/learning how I can post a picture of the tiny little blood spots on my daughters bed and husbands pillow. So far since sheet washing .....that's all the evidence that has come up since the 2nd fogging last Thursday. I'll get the camera out and see how to upload.

    TO: BBGirl....No ill affects from insecticide sprays or fogs in the short term. However, I have no children with asthma or any other breathing difficulties. We do have allergies and I sneeze more when I get back into the house for about an hour. We open all doors and windows. It hasn't been bad.

    TO: Cilecto. Thank you for your feedback. No "other" insects were found by the first company or the 2nd except carpet beetles, which I know don't bite humans. We may have silver fish or moth that chews small holes in our clothes. But that's it. We couldn't even find a spider web in the whole house.
    PCO did confirm small amounts of fecal stains on sheets (that I made sure not to wash before they saw them) and on my nightgowns and on other sheet/pillows in my childrens rooms. We identified shells/skins of nymphs in my sport bra which I wear with nightgown and also on 2 childrens beds. Light yellow in color, sometimes with a small bit of red in them. They crumble easily. Definitely not boogers from nose(sorry tmi). Also I showed PCO my shirt I saved with quite a bit of blood on it from a bite that seems to get hit every other week, unless I cover it up with a bandaid. I think they like to go back to feed at the same spot after it's healed??? Weird. I am going to review your site that you posted the link to.

    TO: NOBUGSONME...Thank you as well. You are so helpful in your questions, I will try to answer them as best I can. I was told that foggers are acceptable to use with a Cert. PCO. ANd that they should NEVER be used in just "one or two" rooms.(because the BB will flea to other part of the home). It should be a "systemic hit" if you will, on the entire home. NEver to be done as a DYI project.

    He used a pyrethin areosol and a DemandCS product along with a dust of Dinotefuran in cracks and cevice treatment.

    I know that there should be every possible variable unturned before treatments are chosen. Terminex (I do trust and feel good about their treatment) went through very diligent processes hour upon hour of inspecting and DID find bug on couch and chairs in living room. He explained that they are very insidious insects and are sometimes extremely hard to find alive in a non-infestated state. Define non infested state...hummm. Probably my situation and many thousands of more like me out there that fall in that in between state of "yeah, I've got them, but not that bad yet". I, and I know many others DON'T want to wait until we see all of them, their eggs and the blackness from their fecal spots on our mattresses.

    I am VERY astute about my body, hell, getting personal here (nothing to loose)... I can tell you what side of my ovary every month I ovulate from....my point being....I don't just get bites in twos and threes, fours, on my body that itch. Nor do my kids.....why would we all be getting the same exact itchy bites appearing? We aren't sensitive to soaps we haven't changed shampoos?

    What I don't want to happen (which my mind would love) is to start to think we just don't have them...and then I to the best of my abilities ignore the bites and wait until it becomes a real problem again like last January. So frustrating.

    There is just no explanation either way....if they aren't bites, what could hit a whole family all the same way? If they are them....why why why haven't they walked across the pyrethoids? If pyrethopids work..which this web blog has said they do (from PCO's who've posted). I've read they sometimes take 4 or 5 treatments. I know I've read at least twice, they take repeated treatments to rid.

    But another variable is.....people. People who are really sensitive to small bumps on their bodies are going to notice things more, there are some people who aren't that way. The success stories I love to read about are the ones that count their days by being "bite free". They are really inspecting their skin every night, and relishing in the relief....albeit cautiously, I'm sure.

    It is a nightmare that I just want to wake up from. It has been so catastrophic to our entire family, and our old way of life. I'll stop. Sorry to rant. Just feel hopeless for answers and to find patience in this mess.

    One last comment...the bites are smaller since PCO....not necessarily less bites, just smaller. The skins are lighter yellow and small that we find on the sheets. The blood spots are about a millimeter in diameter. Some bites (a few) have been bigger and longer to heal. But most are tiny, much smaller than they were in Jan.

    My theory...I am getting less reactive to them... OR... they are the nymphs biting and the occasional adult will bite. I know I've read and been told by BOTH PCO companies that the bite reaction is the same. Ok...here's my thought, maybe the littler ones(nymphs) feed less, therefore, not attacking the site as long, therfore, not as big a hole in my skin and not as reactive. Not sure if that is a valid theory, but it's thought.

  8. KillerQueen

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 20:54:12
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    If you would like some help over the phone, please send me your contact number. Also let me know how late I can call. I see what I can do.

  9. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 22:04:20
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    I am worried that there has been no definitive evidence of live bed bugs found in your home. I am also concerned that the one dead bug found under the couch may not have been a bed bug.

    A doctor cannot diagnose a bite as that of a bed bug. It is impossible.

    I am not dismissing your situation as not being bed bugs, but you need to be prepared that it may not be bed bugs.

    Provide a number for KQ to call you. I think that you could use some sound advice on how to proceed. Please DO NOT spend another cent on bed bugs until you have some more answers.

    Sean
    Entomologist / Pest Professional

  10. bbgirl

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 22:06:17
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    Thank you so much for responding to my question when you are in so much distress. Strangely I have found the same thing - the bites are smaller and less reactive for the last couple of weeks - I assumed it must be from nymphs too and not mature bugs. Somewhat confirmed when yesterday I got a bite on my neck which was like the old bites - really big hole and bled. Guessing that must have been an adult. Don't think I would go non-reactive and then react like that again.

    Truly hope that Killer Queen can help you.

  11. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 22:20:49
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    One thing I like to suggest is low humidity. You definitely can't kill an adult bedbug outright with low humidity, but it may shorten their life span. Early nymphs may be susceptible to drying out when they shed their skins. Bedbugs protect themselves from drying out by clustering together and by becoming less active. If the bugs are clustered together, that may reduce the chances that some will be hiding in places that no one finds. All the benefits are maybes: the only thing that's sure about it is that it's no magic bullet. On the other hand, it costs almost nothing, and I haven't heard any convincing reason not to.

    This time of year, the easy way dehumidify is to open one window in each room a tiny bit, like less than a millimeter, and turn the thermostat up to 72°F or even a little higher. The humidity outside in Denver or Boston is lower than you can get with an ordinary dehumidifier.

    --

    I'm confused by blood spots a millimeter across. The fecal blood spots are much smaller, and I don't think bugs would stick around long enough to get squished very often. Maybe one of the experts (I'm definitely not one) could explain this?

  12. jrbtnyc

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Mon Mar 28 2011 22:27:15
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    There's so much we still don't know with any certainty about bed bugs and their bites.

    We aren't even sure whether, at least on some humans, the bite of an early-stage nymph might not cause just as much of a reaction as the bite of an adult.

    See, from 2007...

    http://bedbugger.com/bed-bug-bites-photos

    ...and, also from 2007...

    http://bedbugger.com/2007/04/20/bitefest3 .

  13. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 0:24:54
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    I was told that foggers are acceptable to use with a Cert. PCO. And that they should NEVER be used in just "one or two" rooms.(because the BB will flea to other part of the home). It should be a "systemic hit" if you will, on the entire home. NEver to be done as a DYI project.

    He used a pyrethin areosol and a DemandCS product along with a dust of Dinotefuran in cracks and cevice treatment.

    If the PCO used an aerosol fogger as a space treatment, then Stephen Doggett's words in the Bed Bug Code of Practice (quoted in the FAQ) do seem to apply.

    I defer to resident pest control experts here about this (I am not one) but it's possible the person who treated your home is wrong about this one.

  14. crazyindenver

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 14:38:33
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    Here are my photos of one of my childs sheets (Friday morning 3/25), their bathroom wall had blood marks (smears, trailings?) been on the wall a long long long time and my husbands pillow (from Friday morning as well). And what looks to be an old old old bed bug (last summer???) on my wall that I didn't make any connection with until now.

    [non-working links deleted by Admin]

  15. crazyindenver

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 14:39:51
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    Drats...the pictures won't open. I have iphoto. and I dragged them from my desktop. They are in JPEG. Any ideas of how to upload from iphoto onto this site?

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 14:53:41
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    You can open a free account on flickr (photobucket, etc.) and make sure your settings allow anyone to view photos. Then paste in the URL (web address) here and it will link.

  17. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 14:53:59
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  18. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 22:05:28
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    I am so sorry to hear about your issues. It tells me that there is so much more to learn about bed bug inspections and control.

    As for using foggers, it should NEVER be done. Period. Foggers are usually nothing more than pyrethrin mist, which is a contact killer and flusher. Only bugs directly contacted by the mist can die, and bed bugs are most usually hiding in cracks that will never get hit by the floating mist. They DO NOT work like fumigation, where vapor seeps into every crack and crevice. Additionally, and bugs "flushed" from hiding will seek shelter in other areas - likely areas where they were not before.

    Finding a cast skin - and having it identified by someone who has no financial gain from your situation, such as a university entomologist - is positive proof that bed bugs may have been introduced into your home. But identification is CRITICAL, and it must be done BEFORE performing any treatment.

    As for the pyrethroids, it will depend on the strain of bed bugs as to whether they will work. Some bed bug strains have been shown to be extremely effective at metabolizing pyrethroids out of their system before they are killed by them, and studies have shown no residual kill from any pyrethroid sprays. Dusts work great, and Tempo Dust seems to be a fast acting pyrethroid dust.

    Low humidity will not work. Bed bugs do not depend on humidity, and the fact that they are found in our "high desert" area is more proof of that to me.

    I would recommend finding a local professional that can and will use Vaxinate 88. It is an all natural product made from food grade materials (soybean oil) that will kill all stages of the bugs and provide you with residual protection. (http://www.vaxinatewith88.com) Since it kills the bugs PHYSICALLY instead of CHEMICALLY, the bugs cannot build resistance to it, nor can they metabolize it out of their system, since it does not enter their system. It actually dissolves the waxy coating of their exoskeleton, allowing them to lose their internal moisture and die from dehydration. Diatomaceous Earth dust works much the same, however it can take a longer period of time to work. It would be great to use in wall voids, electrical outlets and light switches, where bed bugs can hide.

    Here is another "home made" item you can make that will help with small items that you can heat: http://www.ecopestwrv.com/Portable_Bed_Bug_Oven.pdf This article comes directly from Pest Management Professional magazine.

    I certainly hope that you find a solution to your problem.

    Jeff
    Eco-Pest
    Sun Valley, ID

  19. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 22:19:47
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    Vaxinate With 88 website [Duplicate links removed by Admin] Hmmm....worked just fine for me. Browser problem? I use Firefox 4.0

  20. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 22:22:18
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    I'm on the latest version of Firefox for Mac. So it may be a browser problem, but the company might want to fix it.

    In the latest version of Safari, meanwhile, I see this:

    Home

    STOP! Don't throw these beautiful furnishing out because of bed bug infestations!

    DON'T use toxic chemicals that only work until the next infestation arrives on the feet of your own employees or in the luggage of your next guest.

    "VaXinate" with VA88'' It is 100% non-toxic.
    Kills on contact and remains lethal against future infestation.
    GUARANTEED in writing.

    Applied Science Labs
    Rancho Cordova, California
    USA

    Learn how VA 88 PREVENTS Bed Bug Infestation. Be ProActive. Protect your guests and your reputation before either are damaged. Isn't an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure..... especially when the solution is 100% nontoxic and economical to use?
    Stop throwing out expensive furnishings! Where infestation does exist, eliminate it. Learn how to Kill Bed Bugs and Remain Free of Material Reinfestation for a Year..... also, Ants, Roa

    And nothing else. No links, no information.

    I would definitely like to know more about this product, but I hope there is some independent testing data available.

    By the way, do you have any connection with Vaxinate 88?

  21. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 22:28:22
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    No. I am a one-man pest control operation that uses this product.

    We have lots of hotels and motels in our area, and I have spent weeks researching this active ingredient and their formulation for use in these businesses. I have spoken with other formulators in other areas of the country who have confirmed that this soybean oil formulation will, in fact, dissolve the waxy cuticle from any bug, such as bed bugs and cockroaches, and will kill them by causing them to dehydrate.

    There is a lot of medical science behind the product, which I don't think is necessary here, but it is "green" technology which many PCO's today are afraid to try. I, however, am not, so I tend to be "preachy" about products that I know work and work well.

    I have no affiliation with any product manufacturer. I am an "End User", nothing more.

  22. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 22:46:13
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    Thanks for clarifying, jeff. I know that everyone here would like a lot more information about this product. I appreciate that you're happy with it, but the claims made on the text I could read on the website were not enough.

    Getting back to the other poster, I would not recommend, as jeff does, that you go out of your way to find someone local who uses this product.

    It may be a useful tool, or not-- I'd need more information before I get behind it; however, I've heard hundreds of stories of people getting rid of their bed bugs and I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned before. So you can definitely get rid of bed bugs without it.

  23. ecopest_jeff

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:02:39
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    Here are some links to research material about the product. Please note that the name is different (Twin Rivers CimiGuard vs. Applied Science Labs VA88) but the product the same, because the parent company (Applied Science Labs) re-labels it for this company.

    http://www.cimiguard.com/AmerAcadEffStdy-Rpt02-09_v3.pdf

    http://www.cimiguard.com/Acad_s_Cert_ltr_v2.pdf

    Yes, bed bugs CAN be killed with pesticides, but there ARE better ways than using synthetic pyrethroids. That is my main concern - pesticide exposure - especially in this kind of situation. Pesticide applied to furniture comes in contact with humans and pets, resulting in exposure and absorption. Natural products such as the soybean oil product do not pose the same exposure hazards as pyrethroids do. I feel that it is the responsibility of the professional not only to eliminate the pest but also to protect the health of the customer, and to educate about all the alternatives.

    That being said, I am wondering why heat treatment was not considered? Raising the temperature of a structure (or areas within the structure) over 120° F will kill all stages, including eggs. It requires absolutely no pesticide, however it is expensive.

    There is a lot to learn about bed bugs and their control, and hopefully we will soon have a "clearing house" of accurate information available. Until then, find a trained professional that is trustworthy and learn all that you can. Even we professionals are still in the learning curve on this bug.

  24. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:27:06
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    "I have spent weeks researching this active ingredient"

    What active ingredient? It tells basically nothing about what the product actually is.

  25. KillerQueen

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:33:28
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    Oh boy! ..This product was talked about months ago on this site. If I recall David ripped into the info based on some research he did. I remember tracing some info back to a house of the ento that no longer is/does/was/has/ doing this or that ... and is now making this product ... blah blah blah.

    I don't recall anything good from the last post. I remember the names from the links you provided. It comes across as spam here ... sorry if im incorrect.

  26. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:40:39
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    I have a simple question:

    Why not call the guy who did the research, instead of dismissing him based on a closed business? His name and number are listed on the paper:

    Jeffrey K. Brown, Ph.D., R.P.E., B.C.E.
    [Phone number deleted]

    I googled him (surprised no one has done that yet) and here is what I find:

    Jeffrey K. Brown, Ph.D., R.P.E., B.C.E.
    Bureau Director
    State Public Health Entomologist
    Mississippi State Department of Health

    [Admin note: The rest of the information including cell number and address were deleted. I could not find the information except an office phone number on the MSDOH website. I did find it on a number of LiveJournal and Facebook entries, but clearly, it was not Dr. Brown who was sharing the information himself.

    Go for it.

  27. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:45:41
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    I have sent an email to Mr. Brown regarding the published tests. I will be happy to publish whatever his reply is.

  28. cilecto

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:54:18
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    [Admin note: this post digests Cilecto's posts from this thread.]

    Digesting my response regarding sister product CimiGuard.

    Controveries aside, the label for this product indicates soybean oil as the active, with other ingredients; water, calcium silicate, aluminum sodium silicate, iron oxide, sodium sulfate, magnesium silicate, potassium sulfate, sodium benzoate and surfactants (detergent/emulsifier). I'm intrigued. What action do the individual ingredients have on BB, particularly the soy oil and the iron oxide? (I think I have a good idea as to the function of the silicates.) What function do they have to preserve each other (ie, keep the soy oil from going rancid)?

    Note: after writing this, I learned that iron oxide traces occur naturally in some silicas/DEs. It's likely just an incidental ingredient.

    My hunch is that a combination of silica and contact kill will work, but such a product is not novel or unique and hardly worth $300-500 for 6 ounces.

    Or, the question of efficacy is a red herring.
    Note: I haven't priced the new product. Is it more reasonable?

    Then, there's the issue of "netiquette". This is a forum of people who are passionate about the bed bug issue. We have industry and academic leaders contributing their time and effort to make it work. The host has imposed sensible rules of the road, and participants here follow them. You started this thread, presenting as a disintersted party who's just telling us what he's discovered, but seems to be way more involved in this venture. Site veterans, as well as people who actually pay to advertise here, don't like that.

  29. thebedbugresource

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:56:40
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    I have seen the tests and data. I reserve the right to comment out of respect for Dr. Brown.

  30. ecopest_jeff

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    Wed Mar 30 2011 0:08:24
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  31. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 0:25:16
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    Hi Everyone,

    I had directed jeff in a PM to the existing thread about CimiGuard, after he told me this product Vaxinate With 88 and CimiGuard are the same substance sold under different labels.

    I had hoped jeff would continue on the CimiGuard thread, since we've basically hijacked the original thread here, but I think it's a bit late for that. (I probably wasn't clear enough, so that's not entirely jeff's fault.)

    I ask that the conversation now continue on the CimiGuard thread (click here), and that this thread be entirely reserved for CrazyinDenver's topic about her situation.

    Thank you for your cooperation.

    Any further posts about CimiGuard/Vaxinate With 88 in this thread will be deleted.

    Sorry, but there's never an easy way to deal with a thread that gets taken off-topic. This topic is worthy of discussion, but what happens to Crazyindenver's plight? The best solution I can see is to redirect to the existing thread on the same substance.

    Apologies to Crazyindenver, who is not used to the wild, wild world of bed bug products and marketing.

  32. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 16:04:19
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    Hi,

    Back to the OP.

    If you have not yet had confirming signs please check your PM for a message from me.

    Although far away I may be able to offer some advice via Skype or a short call.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  33. crazyindenver

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Apr 28 2011 1:21:45
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    Hello.

    I .............Am...............Going................Mad!

    Ahhh, that felt better to post that. Ok back to my "crazy" plight. I'm jumping way back to before the discussion of Vax...something 88??? in my thread, however, that was interesting to see that thread unfold and how much more goes into managing a forum and a website such as this to keep things real and objective. I didn't mind at all that I was hijacked for a few messages

    Ok...so I read the 75 page manual on the Michigan site that Cilecto recommended. Thank you! It was very informative. To remind everyone who sees this post, that on MArch 30th, I was scheduled for a 3rd....yes, I wrote 3rd fogging. Big thanks to NBOM, Cilecto and David.....however, I did what NBOM said not to do......and PANICKED!!! That is why you haven't heard the rest of the story since then. I've been lurking a bit, but have been emotionally unstable when I read on this site...it just makes me so anxious and yet the information is invaluable! So I come back when I can....and the time is now.

    I have been overwhelmed with the thoughts of "where the F are they coming from"?..... I have been on my hands and knees looking through 500,000 individual carpet hairs on my entire second floor where the 5 bed rooms have Bed bugs...looking under/inside/on the back of all furniture, torn the rooms apart in the last few weeks. In moments of severe despair...I considered a google search under http://www.Mentally-ill.com to order a flippin straight-jacket!

    Still....no live bugs found. ever. However.....yes to blood on sheets, molted skins on sheets, gray to redish black fecal stains on sheets, mostly bottom sheet, nightgowns , camisole tops, white legging ...basically all articles of clothing we wear to bed and the rows and cluster triangles of bites.

    I cancelled the fogging on the 30th of march (as highly recommended by KQ, NBOM, David and Cilecto) and instead had the inspector just review and look for any live bugs or eggs. We couldn't find any. My frame had been sprayed with Temprid SC on March 10th. two subsequent follow ups on March 17th and March 24th (both fogging only). I live in a 4500 square foot detached home.

    After the review of the home on 3/30, it turned up only one variable in the mystery....that 3 of the box spring encasements had holes in them. Very tiny holes. But holes nonetheless. So, when you add in another variable like that, you have to assume that that could be why the bites continued. However, it is important to say that some of the bites seemed to be lessoning, mainly with one of my childrens rooms. All rooms had signs....motled skins in morning in the bed, blood stains, small dots in a row, somtimes on pillow, other times on the side of the bed sheets or under them between the mattress encasement and the sheet. Those little blood dots would appear just about anywhere same with the fecal stains

    On Thursday April 7th, the Manager of the PCO came out to inspect himself. He said he had only had one other visit where they had come to the residence so many times. He started to tell me about the psychological impact the BB can have and that that is the hardest part to get over. I felt he was going to that "bad place" of (you are psychosomatically willing the bites on your my body.....in rows and triangles of 3 and 4 bites. Yeah, right. Ok...so he added a bit of ALpine dust between the carpet and baseboards , said he would order the new box spring covers and he left.

    Bites continued however, signs/evidence of bugs started to decrease.
    But not gone!

    I wanted the SIDES of my mattress encasements sprayed with Temprid (when they arrived), they had done that on the original sides of the box springs when the original set of encasements were put on. So since these replacement encasements were new, I wanted them treated as well.

    So tech came back April 15th. Gave me the new replacements but didn't have Temprid with him. So I had to wait again.

    Tech came back April 20th to spray all bed frames again, and baseboards, box spring sides of encasements and anything allowable by the EPA for use of that product.

    He was VERY thorough. Now...7 days later, tonight specifically, we are all getting bitten again. Well, let me rephrase that, we have always been getting bitten, mostly me, since the problem started in my bedroom. It's just that they lightened a bit in there and then seem to have some back fairly strong.

    I have strong suspicions they were hear(BEd bugs) last summer from an old used chair that I picked up from a second had consignment shop to refinsh someday. (BAD BAD CHoice). But, my theory in why wouldn't they have been at an epidemic level by Jan 11' is....

    SIDE BAR HERE:( my parents have had them since late fall and they stayed with us at Christmas and Thanksgiving). Thats another possible exposure ...just don't know if they gave to us or I gave to them from them sitting in that used chair. The point is neither here nor there. My relationship has been severed at this point, until I can take care of this, and they can take care of theirs. I miss them. It's just a HUGE problem on their end...because they live in a skilled/assisted living home and there are strict restrictions on chemicals being used....they don't allow them at all. Heat is the only thing. ANd they won't heat until they find a live bug. No live bug either at there place.

    .....redirecting back to my theory about my home, I have had prophylatic pesticide treatments done in my home every 3 months for the past 2 years. Spraying of some sort...just to keep spider, beetles etc at bay. SO I think that that is a variable in why my case hasn't escalated as fast (if in fact we did bring them in with the chair late last summer (July/August). Just a thought though.

    My/our bites have escalated in the past few days...seeing blood stains again, and fecal stains on sheets and nightware clothing, along with a few light tan yellow skins in the beds and of course the classic bites. Just an FYI,our sheets have NOTHING in them the night before. It's terribly exhausting and time consuming to examine sheets with a magnifier and light, but I do it for a good baseline, every night. Same routine in the morning...all five beds! )

    Here are a few points I would like addressed:

    Could this escalation or very lengthy fix to this problem be from the fact that the fogging occurred so early after the 1st treatment on March 10th(no fogging, just cryo treatment and spray with a pyrethoid product on the first visit....(fogged 3/17th and 3/24th). I clearly have learned since canceling the 3rd fogging on March 31st, that it can definitely cause the BB to spread to other areas and leave.

    Could it be taking this long for them to venture back into their old rooms and habits? I know that was a loaded question...but, short of ripping my baseboards up and risking divorce from my husband because I am ready to buy all new bed frames and more mattresss/box covers, $$$$$...I am feeling very much in the rabbit hole that Cilecto told me about.

    My other thought.....Temprid SC is resistant to Bed bugs or at least the ones I have! Heard Michigan has a resistant variety too...Possible???

    Third thought.....I have read over and over on this forum, people have repeated laying down of chemical every 10 - 14 days. WIth many treatments taking upwards of 4-6 visits. My PCO never re laid any chemical except on the first visit and on the most recent 4/20th. I decided to pull up the Temprid SC label. Said to be used every 10-14 days until results are yielded. I am feeling very upset at the notion that I am NOT done with this nightmare because of inadequate use of a product. I even mentioned to PCO that I thought the product was to be laid down every 10-14 days based on what I had read on the forum. PCO said, Temprid SC is a residual 90day time frame and there was no need.

    Could any of these theories play into why they are still biting us? It is wrecking our lives and giving me a very dismal outlook for what was supposed to be a fun filled summer me and my kids!

    One thing I can guaranteed, in case it is brought up....You don't need to ask if reintroduction is an issue.....my poor kids don't get play dates, we certainly don't have any body over, our house looks like there's something really wrong in it, my husband takes ALL clothes off in garage after a trip. Suitcase and everything is bagged and stays OUTSIDE.

    I am a very thorough and detailed person, I feel that I am considerably more knowledgeable that most PCO's that I have personally dealt with in finding these critters( some have been down right lazy and unethical). I have found one thing to be true in my dissapointing experience with PCO's. Your inspection is only as good as the inspector doing it! (if only we could clone Killer Queen....he's got a halo around his head and deserves a saint hood and a one-way ticket to the pearly gates when ever it is him time). Thank you for all the time you gave me a few weeks ago! You are the BEST! Many thanks to David for lending his time and ear to connect and reach out to me from so far away. You have a kind sole and give many of us a new found hope that the world is truly filled with people who want to help other people. Thank you David for offering to call and talk. I may need to do that in the near future.

    My(me doing it) inspections are thorough and detailed and time consuming, but I have a direct vested interest in ridding myself of this life altering experience for my whole family! I know many (PCO's)are not going to like what I am about to say....but I am considering my own treatments. I am just in the investigation stages at this point... but I feel that my choices are running out. I would rather have the control (following strict guidelines for treatments dictated by EPA) and have it done cheaper than re contracting with another company and being at their mercy. It is a very liberating feeling that you only have yourself to blame if anything doesn't pan out. ANd you don't have to subject yourself to the patronizing and doubtful looks of invalidation that you get from the PCO. Any PCO's reading this, Please don't take offense ...it is a personal attack on a few I have dealt with. I KNOW THERE ARE GREAT ONES OUT THERE!! I just haven't found any of "YOU" good eggs , yet...and the money is just about out.

    ANd...here's where I stand on finding a bug (I'm sort of on a bitch and moan tangent right now, bare with me)...because this is going to rear it's head in an ugly way come a few years down the road (when we are knee deep in media coverage on this and at an epidemic levels nationwide)..there are many people/potential clients, who DO HAVE BED BUGS WITH NO LIVE BUGS FOUND! If a customers stages of infestation are early......it is a needle in a haystack to say the least, and an extremely daunting task of trying to rid something that can hide anywhere. ANd believe me....I think like the bug...I am constantly thinking of ways to find them...think like them, act like them, dream about them, and it is just not happening ...........yet.

    I would LOVE to find a live bug....and when this nighmare started, I thought I was going to be admitted to a hospital if I did find one. Now it's the only thing I dream about...accept new furniture and 5 new beds! It is so frustrating and baffeling...but, it is what it is, and I am trying to persevere through the madness.

    My comfort is knowing, that as I itch my new bites, take my Zyrtec, stay on my Paxil and Xanax(when needed) DE my edges of box spings, put all clothes everyday in bath tub, laundry sheets and hot dry all beds 3 days a week, tell my kids repeatedly to pick up anything on the floor, give tissues to my children to wipe tears away as to why we can't have any playdates or sleepovers right now, tell them to not get in my bed in the morning because they haven't changed out of their jammies to be a "clean risk" to my bed, and no falling asleep to cuddle with them in there beds if they are afraid during the night, because then I could bring it back to my bed.......(tears welling in my eyes :(.....

    I find comfort in knowing I am "probably" (operative word there) NOT the only Mom doing that. And it is true...misery loves company. Just knowing I'm not alone in this and reading the occasional inspirational success story helps a ton!

    hugs to you all.....I am done for now....if you have gotten this far and have an input on the theories above, please post. God bless.

  34. crazyindenver

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Apr 28 2011 14:18:28
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    Any takers on my "few points I'd like to address"? section...of my, dissertation that is.

    SOrry so long last night...just needed to vent....writing it out somehow makes my life not seem so sureal. I grounds me. You can pass by everything else in the post...I was just trying to cover timelines if you had any questions about previous treatments.

    Please comments on my thoughts in that "few points "section? Especially is David, KQ NBOM or Cliecto are out there...Thanks...just trying to figure out next move...or if should I lower my expectations of success. Bye.

  35. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Apr 28 2011 22:27:17
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    Crazyindenver said:

    Here are a few points I would like addressed:

    Could this escalation or very lengthy fix to this problem be from the fact that the fogging occurred so early after the 1st treatment on March 10th(no fogging, just cryo treatment and spray with a pyrethoid product on the first visit....(fogged 3/17th and 3/24th). I clearly have learned since canceling the 3rd fogging on March 31st, that it can definitely cause the BB to spread to other areas and leave.

    Could it be taking this long for them to venture back into their old rooms and habits? I know that was a loaded question...but, short of ripping my baseboards up and risking divorce from my husband because I am ready to buy all new bed frames and more mattresss/box covers, $$$$$...I am feeling very much in the rabbit hole that Cilecto told me about.

    My other thought.....Temprid SC is resistant to Bed bugs or at least the ones I have! Heard Michigan has a resistant variety too...Possible???

    Third thought.....I have read over and over on this forum, people have repeated laying down of chemical every 10 - 14 days. WIth many treatments taking upwards of 4-6 visits. My PCO never re laid any chemical except on the first visit and on the most recent 4/20th. I decided to pull up the Temprid SC label. Said to be used every 10-14 days until results are yielded. I am feeling very upset at the notion that I am NOT done with this nightmare because of inadequate use of a product. I even mentioned to PCO that I thought the product was to be laid down every 10-14 days based on what I had read on the forum. PCO said, Temprid SC is a residual 90day time frame and there was no need.

    Could any of these theories play into why they are still biting us? It is wrecking our lives and giving me a very dismal outlook for what was supposed to be a fun filled summer me and my kids!

    I am pulling those out so people can find them easily.

    I don't feel like I have the expertise to comment on the Temprid or the possibilities for how long bed bugs might take to come back out after fogging.

    The advice that you need to confirm that bed bugs persist in the apartment still seems relevant. I know that can be difficult, but not as difficult as it used to be. Keep in mind skin reactions, in some people, seem to "linger" or even flare up later. I am not saying this is happening with you, but it's possible. Blood on sheets can be a sign that you're bleeding (from a cut or scrape or bite), but it doesn't mean you have a fresh bite.

    I do think that if you aren't yet, you might employ some monitors to try and nab a sample. (FAQ on monitors, and FAQ on detection.) If I missed that you are using them, please disregard this.

    Beyond that, I would totally defer to David, KillerQueen, Sean of the bed bug resource, and anyone else who has seen the after effects of the kind of treatment you describe.

  36. crazyindenver

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    Thu Apr 28 2011 23:00:09
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    Thank you Nobugsonme....I will watch for comments about those points. I also do appreciate your perspective on the flare ups in bites and of course there is the "delay" time which is very difficult to say with any absolute certainty...unless you leave your home for a period of time, and return and see what the amount of time is for bites to begin showing again. It's one of those variables that is very difficult to nail down.

    Yes, I have climb ups, they have shown no activity at all...however, they were sprayed with a pyrethoid in March and it may have actually turned the climb ups into a repellant . I have thought about cleaning them out and talcing them again. Climb ups may be somewhat of a mute point in the fact that if the bugs are staying in a cozy, metal tight spot on the bed frame, they won't travel down from there, especially if you have a initial /early infestation. Just a thought.

    I am very intrigued by (I think it was a product developed by David) called a Bedbug monitor device. I've seen one on USbedbugs...not sure if it is David's product however. But tomorrow, I will be looking into purchasing one or 2 and making sure I understand thoroughly how they work. Thanks for the suggestion on those.

    I will address my residual efficacy issues with Bayer and Basf regarding Temprid and Phantom tomorrow. I think getting it from the horses mouth so to speak may be best. I read both package inserts (very detailed) and there was NO Comments about one lay down and that's it.

    Both forms mentioned that you should repeat spraying ...Temprid every 7-10 days as needed to accomplish desired results and Phantom (not a knock-down) mentioned to repeat applications up to once a week for a period not to exceed one month. Don't quote me on that...I don't have the pamphlet in front of me that I printed from BASF., but it was something of that sort.

    Well, I'm always learning something on this site and that is always a good thing. Trying to remain positive even with bites increasing in last 3 days. This new found discovery about the chemicals laid has made me a bit upset and wanting an explanation from Terminex on why the products used weren't followed to manufacturers spec....I'll follow up with Terminix after I get the facts from BASF and Bayer. Thank you for your support and thoughts. It is always so greatly appreciated.

  37. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Apr 29 2011 13:22:03
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    There is the Bed Bug Beacon (active monitor invented by David James) or BBAlert Passive (invented by David Cain). You can read more about it here. It's been recommended that you run it for two weeks initially.

    If you're using a BBAlert Passive, David C does not recommend also using ClimbUps. It's a totally different theory you're working with and you want the bed bugs to harbor in the passive, rather than trapping them. More on BBAlert Passives here.

    The ClimbUps sprayed with pesticide may be problematic as you note. Normally, they should not be used with anything but the talc inside -- though again, if you go BBAlert, you might want to simply remove them before implementing that.

  38. crazyindenver

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    Sun May 1 2011 14:31:14
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    Oh well....I was writing an update and I clicked something and lost it...ooops. I'll post an update later.

  39. crazyindenver

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    Mon May 2 2011 14:57:30
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    Just an update and looking for a word of encouragement if anybody is having a better day than me. Found the awful little blood stains today.....again. The fecal stains on the underside of my sheets....again. Sigh..... Bites have returned. Only went 3 days with out them. Now they are less bites, but larger. Not like the really small little ones in a tight line that resembles a scratch. I had those the past few months.

    Looked into what could possibly be the issue of why they aren't gone....I had always wondered, but never questioned why everybody else's PCO were coming back every week or 2 weeks for 3 or 4 or more treatments. Mine only came once a week and he (they) didn't always put down chemical. Just looked around. Oh...and of course, we can't forget the 2 foggings they did on my 4K sq. ft. home. I'm sure that added to the problem.

    Sigh......I know many won't support my next action...but the blood marks/ skins/ fecal stains on the increase again instead of decrease....I have decided to do my own pest control. God knows I've seen it done enough. I have spoken with every company(makers of the products) that I will be using to try and irradicate my issue. They all have been very informative and have confirmed that the Temprid SC WAS PUT DOWN INCORRECTLY AND AT WRONG INTERVALS. So....that's that. I will received my products on Thursday and will approach this endeavor cautiously, judiciously and with thoroughness and tenacity.

    Oh....and for my early Mother's Day gift? My husband is going to splurge and give me a new vapor steamer to assist in my efforts to rid these little beasts! No perfume this year, no clothes...but that's just fine with me. I feel very lucky to have the patient and sweet family that I do have. Still trying to Count my blessings through all this mess.


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