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Natural Product Test Published

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  1. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Apr 7 2013 12:45:23
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    Dear FOlks,

    In March 2013 PCT magazine published data on mortatility tests conducted using eleven "naturual products" tested against bed bugs.

    In the test described bud bugs were directly sprayed and then removed to a confined area for mortality observation/evaluation at various periods of time including 1, 3, 5, 7 and 10 DAT (days after treatment).

    Of note were the anticipated results which indicated that even 10 DAT nearly all of these natural products produced less than 50% mortality for bed bugs that received direct treatment with the product in test.

    However, at 3 DAT a professional product, temptrid sc, often recommended and written about on this Forum produced 100% mortality.

    Just two of the "natural products" produced acceptable mortality 10 DAT.

    Those who are interested in reading the published article may refer to the March 2013 issue of PCT pages 27 thru 31.

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Apr 7 2013 14:45:03
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    Hi,

    Here is the direct link:

    https://www.pctonline.com/pct0313-biopesticides-testing-bed-bugs.aspx

    I did rather chuckle to see that the company of one of the authors of the study is still selling one of the products that did not test very well.

    Its not the first time I have had to make comments about the quality of some academic testing and the product testing of certain companies however, its always good when they later publish the proof of what some of us have suspected for some time.

    My take home from the paper is another big "shame on you boys" and I know its not the last time you are going to get caught with your pants down given the range of products that you are selling. Those marketing support fees are really starting to look like 20 pieces of silver. How can you expect people to take you seriously when you clearly did not test the products before you put them on sale.

    You are of course welcome to test anything that we sell to the public because having tested it first before making it available we know it works. I have always felt that was the correct way to build a solid reputation in a market but lets face it since those comments made in Vegas in 2009 we know that is not how you work.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  3. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Apr 7 2013 21:39:45
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    Ok, I'll admit it...I used Bedbug 911 laundry detergent on my cold wash items from the gym/yoga studio....I have no idea if it works, but if the spray isn't effective then I don't know why the laundry detergent would be. It's $24 for a small bottle. I only got one bottle with my passives and felt stupid about it. Now, it's been confirmed....

    With a dust mite allergy, I'm supposed to wash bedding in hot.

    Grrrr.....

    They
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    = TAOT
  4. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Apr 7 2013 22:52:17
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    Thanks for posting the link so folks can see the actual publiction DC !

    Have a great day, pjb

  5. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 0:26:44
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    Thanks, Paul, this is helpful and I will work it into a new FAQ.

    bed-bugscouk - 9 hours ago  » 
    I did rather chuckle to see that the company of one of the authors of the study is still selling one of the products that did not test very well.

    Hi David,
    Did you mean Stop Bugging Me? Because I have checked their website and it is no longer for sale.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  6. cilecto

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 9:25:09
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    A lot of the "natural products" are based on detergents (the "tell" is Sodium Lauryl/Laureth Sulfate). They'll kill on contact, but so will household cleaners, for a lot less. Laundry detergent will kill bed bugs in wash, but likely not eggs. The additive is unlikely to do any better. The definitive killer in laundry is heat.

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  7. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 10:25:42
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    Hi Nobugs,

    Not stop bugging me which used to be their fav, the rest easy which also did not test well. In fact I reviewed their YouTube "rant" about luggage sprays and after the usual "this may or may not help" statements it's clear how much of a con this is and doubly clear that someone's testing is as flawed as I have previously claimed it is.

    David

  8. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 11:25:13
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    Of course.

    HOWEVER, it seems to me that while this topicality certainly subjects the uniformed reader to "murky waters" at best, we might best help those seeking such treatment options by telling them the truth about these products and results.

    As such, perhaps it would be "Green Sticky Worthy" to go ahead and post a recommended products type list.

    Such a list might be presented in the form of a matrix which is updated from time to time and includes the recommendations of various qualified individuals/trusted professionals who are knowledgable about the subject matter.

    And, even as I wrote that last comment i realize that this may not be as easily accomplished as it may seem due to various factors.

    However, it seems worth an honest effort for the benefit of the consumers and NBs probably doesn't have enough to do.

    In any case, it is what it is !

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

  9. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:08:11
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    David,
    There are (quite confusingly) two products: Rest Easy Luggage Spray in the red bottle (which Bed Bug Central is selling, but which is pyrethrin-based and was not tested in this study), and Green Rest Easy (which is essential oil based and in a yellow bottle and was tested in this study, but which Bed Bug Central does not appear to be selling).

    Incidentally, I sent an email to US Bed Bugs, which is selling (as of now) Bed Bugs 911 and Green Rest Easy, alerting Adam to the study.

    I haven't had time yet to contact other companies.

  10. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:11:27
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    Paul,
    I'd be happy to work on that, actually. It's the kind of information that could help people. But I would not leave it as a Green Sticky-- it would be a FAQ. (Remember most people who use the site never post on the forums and they're much more likely to seethe FAQs.)

    We can have two matrices for products which are eco-exempt and those which aren't. It seems like it would be possible to account for PMPs varying opinions.

  11. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:23:35
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    Hi,

    Thanks for the update, we have effectively managed to block the whole corrupt principle of this class of product in the UK to date and will continue to fight against it on environmental and resistance / tolerance grounds.

    lets face it the most ethical solution will always be to either wrap the luggage in protective layer during travels or if that is not possible to brush it down with a stiff brush before you take it home. Sadly Bedbug Iscariot sees no value in selling stiff bristle brushes.

    David

  12. cilecto

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:24:58
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    What's with all the passion/crucifixion/resurrection allusions? Is it Easter, or something?

  13. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:31:04
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    cilecto - 4 minutes ago  » 
    What's with all the passion/crucifixion/resurrection allusions? Is it Easter, or something?

    No it just ties in perfectly with the 20 pieces of silver many of us have been asked for although I don't think Judas dressed it up as "a marketing support fee" which you have to give him some credit for.

    David

  14. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 13:37:26
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    Dear NBs,

    If you can construct/compose this thing I'm all for it and of course will provide any help I can.

    Thanks much ! pjb

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 15:23:34
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    David,

    I do understand your concerns about the luggage spray. I am not assuming it's the best idea or protocol. On the other hand, I don't think marketing JE Eaton products is unique to Bed Bug Central.

    And I think we should give credit where due -- BBC does not now seem to be selling any of the products listed in this study, as you suggested they still were.

    Moreover, US Bed Bugs, a retailer I know many here have had a good relationship with overall has been and appears to continue to sell some of them.

    And I say this not to vilify US Bed Bugs, who are still doing a pretty good job IMO-- I think it is more a factor of the public not knowing which products work and retailers sometimes being in the same boat. I hope they will drop the products which did not fare well.

    I have a lot of respect for you as you know, but I don't think it's helpful or accurate to demonize a company or individuals. If there are problems with products being sold in the North American market, this is a problem bigger than one company.

    Jeff White often participated here in the past and I welcomed this participation-- both because he also helped lots of people here by answering questions, and because I think it's good for bed bug experts generally to interact with other experts and the public here (I think it builds knowledge and understanding on all sides).

    Paul,

    I think I might start with a survey for the PMPs/experts here (who we can kind of confirm as such and who wish to partake).

    The first step would be brainstorming a list of products including both brand name and active ingredients for the non-eco-exempt ones (which saves me a lot of Googling). If you want to get the ball rolling on that here, it would be super!

    Then I can compile a survey.

  16. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 16:24:53
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    Hi NoBugs,

    I take you point, it would be a lot easier for me to accept it had I amongst others not been on the receiving end of the darker side of that organisations activities. Sadly i have seen them abuse too many people within the industry and consumers to anything but harsh with my opinion of them.

    As time will tell there are too many incidences of people accepting the way of profit over the greater good of mankind with this issue. I know you are privy to some of the details but the reality is that I have only ever mentioned the tip of the iceberg of what is actually out there.

    I will if you want hold back on my opinions but I do feel some people will suffer as a result of that as i would even need to moderate some of the information that has come to my attention at the event i am currently at.

    David

  17. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 17:20:50
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    Hi David,

    I think sharing your opinions is very valuable to the point where helpful information (and opinions on it) is being shared.

    So please do continue to share!

    I should also note that at times, forum users express confusion because they're seeing not actual discussion of information (or opinions on that), but more cryptic and mysterious comments (perhaps such as those above about Judas and coins).

  18. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 19:06:49
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    Dear NBs,

    As our collective Moms likely told us all:
    "As long as we tell the truth we don't have to remember what we've said."

    There are those that share certain concerns however, rather than muck about it seems that the greater good would be to simply get on with the project you propose and, as such, I propose the following system be considered:

    > Prepare an alpha sorted XL spreadsheet of all currently labeled bed bug products available in the US to both the retail and professional sector.

    > Assemble a panel of qualified experts from which evaluation may be attained.

    > Compose a rating system or rating range; say 1 being least effective and 10 being most effective.

    > Survey your chosen panel of experts/practitioners for their input.

    > Post the rankings attained.

    Now, we ( and by "we" I mean YOU) need to be careful because this can be a slipery slope and certainly, there will be those whose feathers may get ruffled by publication of this information.

    However, as long as the cause is just and the aim is true, I see no reason why this can't be a good thing for the intended audience that it's supposed to eventually help.

    Of course, the methodology posted above may be imporved via comment of others as two heads are better than one.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  19. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 21:48:55
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    Thanks Paul.

    Again, I welcome you, David and anyone else to share concerns here.

    As for the survey, this is a good idea but I think a survey will work better because it can spit things out in a spreadsheet but the interface will be more user-friendly.

    It seems like you'd want to deal with three categories: direct killers, residual sprays, dusts--- otherwise you can't really compare a contact kill spray vs. a residual. Interested in your thoughts.

    Also: easiest way to get list of every pesticide for sale in NA? Might it be possible to group by active ingredient?

  20. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 22:47:52
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    Hi,

    You will have to forgive a little more cryptic communication on this one but mufti site comparison data is only possible with products used in the supplied concentrations as in direct spray solutions.

    You also need to list by active rather than trade name as from the market place at the forum I can already see a wave of old chestnuts being relaunched under new brands and often the new suppliers are not apparently aware of the old names nor reputation.

    David

  21. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 23:05:35
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    Dear NBs,

    Well, there's a few issues & challenges but nothing that can't be overcome.

    There are any number of ways to slice & dice this information.

    Of course, the spreadsheet can be made as complex or simple as you'd like.

    However, all the parameters can be listed across the top of the spreadsheet and the values thereof may be indicated as needed and appropriate.

    Not to offend our non-US based bretheren but from a total product sales perspective the US market is the dominant market and information for US market labeled products is easily attained via online and other sources. If you decide to go with NA then you have the issue of gathering information on products available in Canadia and Mexicana too. We then have the EU and ROW markets as well.

    I'll send you some suggestions for the various spreadsheet parameters to consider.

    We don't have to be in a hurry to get this done but it seems like a worthy effort.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  22. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Apr 8 2013 23:11:14
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    I'm having trouble picturing it, but if there is a lot of disagreement, could we have a breakdown by the PCOs, anonymous to the users but not to nobugs.

    I like the consumer report table format..please

  23. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 0:13:02
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    Thanks, Paul.
    I'm open to your suggestions for parameters, but I am not a big spreadsheet person and I think this might work well with an online survey engine like SurveyMonkey. Same idea but different method of collecting.

    David,
    Are you suggesting asking about active ingredients instead of products? If so, this is what I was getting at.

  24. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 6:35:44
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    Dear NBs,

    I think if we're going to "tell the story" we need to tell the story.

    The trouble with limiting the information to AIs (active ingredients) alone is that we would ignore the value of the actual product formulation which can be and is a major performance factor.

    As such, doing so would essentially equate all products which contained the same AI which would not be representative of the true product performance in such cases.

    It's not rocket science but we need not over simplify it such that we ignore pertinent and significant factors either.

    As mentioned above a "consumer reports" type format would be suitable. Such factors to consider might include:

    Product name
    AI
    AI Chemical Classification
    Manufacturer
    Formulation Type
    MSRP Cost Per Finished Gallon
    MSRP Cost Per 1,000 SF to Treat
    Residual Performance (Indicate ranking or up to ?? days or weeks plus source of data)
    Contact Kill (Indicate ranking or % Mortality at 1 DAT, 3 DAT & 10 DAT plus source of data)
    Overall Professional Ranking (for professional market type products)
    Availability (List the various countries that the product is currently available in)
    Product Sales Rank (Derived from overall distributor sales per anum)

    ! ! ! GATEKEEPER RULES ! ! !

    Now, this can likely be the most important factor. It's YOUR website and, as such, you will need fulfill the role of Gatekeeper for thos Pros who are providing you with the data upon which the Ranking information will be based. With this in mind certain concerns come to mind:

    1) We don't want to over emphasize the product alone as the sole key factor to reach bed bug nirvana ! Experienced, competent Pros know that ain't the answer.

    2) We don't want folks commenting on products that they have no experience with.

    3) We don't want to ignore "what the market tells us" either. Whether we accept it or not, the professional pest management market is a small and tight market. As such, the market tells us what works and what doesn't in fairly short order. Simply stated, when a product works well the Pros learn about it pretty quick and they continue to buy and use it.

    4) In my view the largest area of shared concern are likely those products which are marketed under "fantastic performance claims" which grossly overstate their potential and possible ability to control/eliminate bed bugs.

    As you can see, it's somewhat complex but nothing that can't be accomplished.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  25. KillerQueen

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 9:13:48
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    So eliminate the TV repair man and just sell the TV's?

    This thread is a bad idea and bad for the pest control industry! It's one thing to talk about the basics of over the counter products but, I don't think its right for a general use (novice) forum to be discussing chemicals in length with the general public.

    Despite what you may hear - PCO's are trained to use these chemicals, the general public is not. It's why the government takes the restricted use chemicals out of the hands of the everyday consumer.

    Just because 2 or 3 people are writing about things in this thread that does not mean you have an audience of 2 or 3. You don't know who is watching, who is not learning, and who is about to harm themselves or others because they thought they understood what some professionals wrote on a forum.

    I'll will have no part in this thread and the rest of you should considerer your trade and the audience you can't see or judge.

  26. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 13:46:51
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    Paul,

    I understand why dealing with AIs alone would not suffice.

    It would be a lot of trouble to track down some of this data. It's not just looking at every single product label but also seeking out efficacy studies for each product. It's not a simple matter, and perhaps is far beyond what I had envisioned.

    My other concern with the methodology is this: if you

    > Assemble a panel of qualified experts from which evaluation may be attained.

    > Compose a rating system or rating range; say 1 being least effective and 10 being most effective.

    > Survey your chosen panel of experts/practitioners for their input.

    as you suggested, then it seems like you're getting people's subjective ideas about which products are effective or not.

    The problem is, very few of the PMPs may be testing products side by side in this way, and therefore it seems many will be unable to give reputable answers.

    Moreover, if this goes beyond the scope of people active on the forums, then we get the problem of selecting a biased group. For example, people whose firms consult with Paul Bello likely share the same biases as Paul Bello. (That's not to say I don't respect your opinions, but to say it will hardly be a representative sample.)

    KillerQueen,

    I agree with you that we should not be setting up anything that people are going to take and run with ("Oh, Phantom works? Let me just self treat with that.") That's not what I intended and I don't think that's what others intended. You make a good point.

    On the other hand, it may be helpful to provide some information about pesticides. I'm interested in your input on what that might be.

    Note the PCT study referenced above is about contact killers and doing a FAQ on this would not serve the purpose of encouraging people to rely on those to deal with bed bugs. It would be showing that if you want a commercial contact killer, (a) many of them are less effective, (b) a few have a little more value. But it would make clear they're not going to solve the problem.

    I'm interested in input from others as to what would be helpful but I want to stress the site isn't going to be telling people which pesticides to buy and use--I'm not qualified to do that and I don't think most of the pros here think it would be a good idea. (When some of you do this as individuals, that's a different matter.)

  27. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 21:17:28
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    Speaking from a consumer/lay person/novice perspective only . . .

    I would find the information very interesting.

    With that being said, if I were to ever get bed bugs, I would NEVER self treat. I would beg, borrow, steal (ok not really that one), max out my credit cards, get a loan from my 401K, do whatever I needed to do to get an experienced PCO to treat and take care of my problem!

    I understand KQ's concern about lay people and self-treatment . . . unfortunately, there are many people that cannot afford to hire a PCO (but do they even have access to the chemicals that professionals have access to?).

    I would personally use the information to possibly help me choose a PCO and ask (semi) intelligent questions on the effectiveness of the products they are using to treat my home.

  28. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Apr 9 2013 22:28:00
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    Whoa, let's hold on and back up the truck a tad here.

    1st: Those who can't afford to hire a pro can benefit from the presentation of good, credible information.

    2nd: What separates competent professionals from lessor professionals are their knowledge, skills and ability to remediate problems successfully, NOT merely the products that they use.

    3rd: Paruse any big box store and you'll find them well provisioned with paint, plumbing and electric supplies yet the "do it yourselfers" have nor adversely affected the viability of those trades nor will they affect the success of the professional pest management industry.

    4th: Not to shock or insult anyone here but the entire professional pest management industry is actually comparatively small when compared to other industries. And, there are no big mysteries within the industry that aren't soon shared and well known across the entire industry in a relatively short time. Regarding "which professional products work best?" We could reasonably ascertain that answer by making a few phone calls to industry suppliers and ask them this: Which three or four products are their customers are purchasing most for bed bug control? If you know who to call, you can find this information very quickly.

    The problem and concern which initiated this thread was primarily those products that are marketed as natural products as well as those which are marketed to consumers. With such products there is little reliable data nor is there a body of experienced applicators who share and report the results from such products.

    Perhaps it's just me but I don't consider:
    "I sprayed this product just once around my apartment and all my bed bugs were gone in one week!" Sharon, Newton, NJ
    as credible data.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.


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