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My bed bug death machine.

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  1. bugdefcon

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Nov 16 2011 15:37:34
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    Standard disclaimer. I'm relating what I'm doing and I'm in no way advocating that other people do the same.

    I was exposed to bed bugs at a hotel recently. The clothes and luggage I dealt with by washing and drying like crazy. The issue left was what to do with the non washables, particularly the electronics. The commerical solutions don't recommend that they be used for electronics. What I needed was something that would heat something up to bed bug killing temperatures, but not to electronics killing temperatures. Something higher than 106F but less than 140F. I also needed something that would keep the temperature constant without much variance. My initial thought was to build a computer controlled death chamber using an array of thermocouples and using a laptop to control the temperature. That's the engineer in me. Then I thought that I can't be the only person who's ever needed a low temperature oven. I'm not. It's actually quite common. There are commercial solutions which cost a few hundred dollars that will maintain the temperature and humidity. There are also a lot of DIY at home people making these things. People build these things all the time to do such diverse things as cure resin, make sausage, brew beer, incubate eggs, make yogart and cook meat. No matter what they use it for the requirements are the same and thus is the solution. Basically stick a light bulb in a box. The cheapest way to do this is to use a cardboard box. I've read people say this on this forum before only to be ridiculed. It is a widely used method. The middle method is to use a cooler, like for ice and beverages. The fancy solution is to use an old refridgerator.

    I used an old ice chest aka cooler. It's insulated, making it easy to maintain a constant temperature. It's enclosed, sealing off any avenue of escape for the bugs. It's white, making it easy to find any runners. The rest of the setup is a light bulb, a dimmer switch, a small fan and of course a therometer. It took me about about 30 mins to set everything up. I know many of you are thinking that a light bulb gets really hot. It all depends on wattage. According to the Factory Mutual Insurance Company investigator's guide, a 40 watt incandescent light bulb gets to 252F and a 25 watt light bulb gets to 110F. A 25 watt light bulb raw gets hot enough to kill bed bugs but it's not so hot as to be very dangerous. I wanted more range so that's where the dimmer comes into play. It's basically the temperature adjustment. I use it with a 40 watt bulb. I have it set near the low end of the range so it's about 30 watts. Over a period of days, I did a series of dry runs. I adjusted the temperature using the dimmer so that it would be at 120f +/- .2 degrees. It's held that temperature for hours. The little fan ensures that everything is evenly heated. Even without it, since it's an insulated enclosed space, gravity convection alone will tend to take care of that. I did loaded runs by wrapping a few socks around the temperature probe. It took about 30 mins for the probe to come up to 120F from room temperature. I've done a bunch of dummy runs with electronics in cases. That also took about 30 mins to come up to 120F and it can hold that constant for as long as I want. The electronics come out fine.

    Before I do it with my bed bug exposes items, I just wanted to get some feedback. I'm not that concerned about the electronics since 120F is well under the temperatures they are rated for. I'm soliciting feedback on whether this will kill the bed bugs if I say left it at 120F for an hour. Based on everything I've read, it should be more than enough. I am curious why more people haven't done this. Building a low temperature oven like this is well documented and not particularly difficult. It seems like a very easy solution but other than the guy who did something similar with a trashcan, I haven't found other people that have done this. Am I missing something obvious?

  2. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Nov 16 2011 17:30:26
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    The difficulty of maintaining heat levels consistently and all over the aparatus would be my first issue and concern. If bugs can climb the sides, could they climb to the lid edge and simply walk out if it's not a zippered cooler? Or could they climb to a 105 cool spot and make it through your process?

    Here's the thing: in my infestation and move, not 1, not 2, but 3 of the regular experts answered my questions about electronics with hand inspection is enough. They--both the bugs and the experts--are unlikely to want to live inside electronics. It's hot, it's small. It's unlikely. Did you use these items in bed? If not, then I would look at a lot of pictures of stages and hand inspect them outside, away from your home. While it's only as good as your inspection of each object, the odds are still not so high that you are running a terrible risk.

  3. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Nov 16 2011 17:55:31
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    A few quick points:

    1. You say you're an engineer. Many of us are not. What's easy for an engineer is a near impossibility for some of us. (I have a pair of married friends who are both English majors who recently bought their first house. They joke that they should be starring in a reality television show entitled Why English Majors Should Not Marry English Majors. The entire history of them talking to contractors and handypeople goes about like this:

    Item in the home breaks.

    Two English majors stare forlornly at the object in bafflement.

    One of the English majors calls someone who might know something about it.

    Mechanically inclined professional on the phone says "Oh, that's really easy. First you do this thing."

    English major on phone is lost by the end of that second sentence and schedules appointment for someone else to come out and fix the broken thing.

    I tell this story to point out that what's easy for an engineer is definitely not easy for the general public.

    2. If done improperly--esp. by people who are not mechanically inclined types, the kinds of creations above could be fire risks. People who know what they're doing with electricity are generally able to be safe, but a lot of people (like me) don't know enough to know whether we're safe or not.

    3. People who are more mechanically and manufacturingly inclined than I am--and those with hands on professional experience in using heat to kill bed bugs will likely tell you that the trick is engineering the container you're using for the heat to circulate the heat properly, to assure that the temperature inside the container is raised at the right speed, and to make sure that the container is entirely impermeable to bugs fleeing the heat.

    All three of those criteria have to be met for the device to be successful.

    With heat treatment, the temperature is raised inside the structure or container at a certain speed. If the speed of the temp increase is wrong and there's a way out, the bugs will just flee the item and get back into your residence. I personally don't know how sealable a cooler would be against escaping bed bugs. I would guess that the problem would be in whatever hole is made in the cooler to insert the heating element. A fridge sounds like a better bet, but that's beyond the skill level of many people, and it may still run into the same problem.

    Again, none of that is to discourage you personally. But what you asked was why don't more people design DIY cooker devices. That's the answer as to why I don't. Personally, I would rather pay someone else who knows what he or she is doing to put together a safe and effective device because I know how much I suck at that skill set. I suspect I'm not alone in feeling that way.

    When something comes easily to us personally, it's often the case that it's hard for us to see why it doesn't come easily to other folks. I'm daily baffled at how much people struggle to use printed or typed words to say what they want to say because writing comes quickly, easily, and naturally to me. As a result, I don't always understand why it's a struggle for other people to get the grammar right or learn a grammar rule when it's pointed out to them--even though I see plenty of evidence that the way I relate to language isn't the way everyone else relates to language.

  4. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Nov 16 2011 19:00:13
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    Hi,

    How do you get to carnige hall?

    The reality is that you system would need to be soak tested for 50+ cycles. Run in different environments, tested with different materials and also tested with real live bedbugs.

    The engineer in you seeks a mathematical solution to a biological problem and they simply don't work that way.

    I can't go onto details of who, what or when but there is already a corner of my testing facility in London littered with products that do not work for various reasons.

    I appreciate that you mean well but for something to be of value to people with bedbugs it has to be known to work time after time and that takes long days and testing. In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    However as others have said the fear of bedbugs in appliances is greater than the probability of it happening in anything other than a massive infestation.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  5. bugdefcon

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Wed Nov 16 2011 19:17:45
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    Thanks for the replies. I appreciate it.

    To address some of the concerns. The way I will be using this is that I will preheat the death chamber to 120F. I will then put in the item to be sterilized. My understanding from reading this forum is that bed bugs will run to where it's coolest. The coolest thing at that point will be the item. The heat will work in from the outside in so they should just keep trying to dig in deeper. I've also read that faced with a blowing hot wind, that they will retreat further in. That's what's happening inside due to the fan. In case they do try to make a run for it, a variety of things will stop them. One, the side of the cooler is smooth slippery plastic. Much like a bathtub, I'm not sure they can make it up. Two, I've lined the edge right below the lid with double sided sticky tape. Think of it as a bug trap all the way around. Three, the lid is sealed pretty tight. I even made it tighter by lining it with weather strip. As for escaping through the hole that the probe and cord go in. The hole has been sealed with caulk. Nothing's getting out through there.

    As for cool spots. There really aren't any. That's a big reason for using an insulated container and allowing the temperature to stabilize. The entire interior is effectively the same temperature. If it wasn't a sealed insulated container, then there would be cool spots as the heat radiates away. Of course no container is a perfect insulator so some heat does leak away, but the gradient is relatively small. Even with the heating source (light bulb) off, it maintains the same temperature for quite a while. The little fan inside also eliminates hot/cool spots by moving the air and thus conducting the heat about. I did try positioning the thermometer in different spots and taking samples. After allowing the temperature to stablize each time, the readings were consistent. This is a prototype and I plan on building a bigger better version. I've ordered a bunch of thermometers for that so that I will have an array of them all over the container. I will also do away with the dimmer switch to set the temperature manually and will replace it with a computer controller. I'll set the temperature and the controller should keep it there with no further interaction from me.

    I'm most concerned about bed bugs hiding out in my laptop. There are a bunch of places for one to get inside and a bunch of places inside for one to hide. By the nature of it, it's hard to inspect. It's kind of like trying to figure out what's inside a box just by looking at the outside of the box. A couple of hours at 120F won't really do it that much harm if any at all. Yes, the Li Ion/Poly batteries don't like being at high temperatures, but 2 hours isn't really that much time. Most Li Ion/Poly cells are rated to operate at up to 50C or 122F. So 120F is even within their operating specs. My laptop is rated to work in an environment of up to 145F. I'm actually thinking about putting my laptop in their while it's on so that I can monitor the internal thermometers over WiFi. Many will be much higher since even at idle the CPU will be pushing 170F, but there is one thermometer in the chassis that just reads room temperature.

    It's actually super easy to put one of these things together. Basically it just involves sticking a lamp in a cooler. The only electrical part comes from plugging it in the wall. Yes, the temperature definitely needs to be monitored in the cooler. If a 500 watt halogen lamp is stuck in there, that's going to be big problem really quickly. On the other hand, a 25 watt bulb tops out at 110F. It doesn't even feel that warm.

    As often said, a picture is worth a thousand words. Here's a tutorial from someone who built a simple one. There's not much to it.

    http://www.instructables.com/id/low-temp-resinRTV-curing-oven/

    Here's a tutorial on building a fancy one using a controller.

    http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/equipment

  6. bugdefcon

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Sat Nov 19 2011 20:18:11
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    I started using my bed bug death chamber for real today. I started running through the unwashables I bagged that were exposed to bed bugs. I've been conservative with my times. From tests with the probe stuck deep into things. The longest it took the probe to come up to 120F was when I hallowed out a space for the probe in one magazine and then surrounded it with 5 magazines on the top and bottom for insulation. Paper is a very good thermal insulator as well as being very dense. It took 1 hour and 20 mins to come up to 120F from room temperature. I left my first batch consisting of my camera and my phone in there for 4 hours. Considering that neither are close to being as thermally dense as the magazine stack, they were both at 120F for at least 3.5 hours. I'm thinking that should do it. Both the camera and the phone work just fine. Lacking live bed bugs, as a control, I tested with some ants. I have plenty of those. It's hard to find numbers on what temperature ants die at but I did find studies that showed they are active up to 111F and some survive up to about 160F. My dry runs generally lasted 3-4 hours since I wanted to make sure I could hold the temperature steady for that long. Every single ant I stuck in there was dead by the end of the run.

    Personally, I'm confident enough by what I've seen to consider the stuff that's been run through it bed bug free.

  7. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Sat Nov 19 2011 22:35:56
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    Good luck! I couldn't assemble this....heck, I had to have help with my packtite (and that's EASY to put together).

    They
    Are
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    = TAOT
  8. bugdefcon

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Tue Nov 22 2011 11:29:43
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    I'm running my last batch through as I type. Everything went pretty smoothly. I would have finished yesterday but the fan seized up. I was using a fan I bought for a $1 at Radio Shack years ago. It was one of those tiny battery operated fans for people to use on the go. Somehow I don't think it was designed to run constantly for 12 hours a day for 10 days straight. I got a proper muffin fan at the industrial supply store and that's chugging along now.

    The laptop seems to have suffered no ill effects from 4 hours at 120F. Since I travel a lot and am a fan of buying cameras at thrift stores, I'm going to build a bigger better version so I can routinely heat treat things. The one thing this experience has taught me is that just because I don't see signs of bed bugs during the room inspection, doesn't mean there aren't bed bugs.

    This version was something I built out of parts I had lying around the house. The new one will be along the same lines. The big change is that I will replace the dimmer switch with a PID controller so that I can set the temperature and the controller will maintain it. It will also be much larger. I'm using a 48 quart cooler right now and I already have my eye on a 120 quart one. I'll also outfit it with an array of thermometers. All the parts, other than the cooler, have already shipped. A 120 quart cooler should give me enough space that I'll be able to put my travel bag in there without it touching the sides. I thought about using an old broken fridge, there are plenty for free on CraigsList. It would be much better in every way but would have taken up too much space. I already have one fridge in the garage. The cooler is small and light enough that I can stick it on top of the fridge in the garage when not in use.

  9. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Thu Jun 27 2013 23:00:00
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    Just a little followup that I thought was remarkable. I used my little bedbug death machine yesterday. I set it at 52 C as usual. After 2 hours I unplugged it. Generally I let it sit for an hour before taking the processed items out. Yesterday I forgot. I unplugged it around 6pm and didn't remember to get the items out until about 9am this morning. I was surprised that the temperature had only dropped to 48 C. It only dropped 4 deg C in about 15 hours. That's well insulated. I have never let it go that long unpowered before. I will say that after 17 hours at around "instant" kill temperature that any bedbugs are most likely well dead.

  10. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 14:02:59
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    Another use for my BBDM. I opened up my safe and found that things got moldy. It's a fire safe and they are infamous for having high humidity inside due to the construction. I know that mold can be killed at around 65 degs. So I cranked it up to that and left some papers in there for 2-3 hours. The mold turned into powder and fell off. It doesn't even really smell moldy anymore. Dual use. Kills bugs and mold.

  11. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 14:16:51
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    Hi bedbugdefcon,

    I think it's worth reiterating that this may work for you, but isn't for everyone and people should not try and replicate it.

    As David said above,

    I appreciate that you mean well but for something to be of value to people with bedbugs it has to be known to work time after time and that takes long days and testing. In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    ... or their electronic devices, since electronics don't all have the same level of tolerance for heat.

    As buggyinsocal said,

    If done improperly--esp. by people who are not mechanically inclined types, the kinds of creations above could be fire risks. People who know what they're doing with electricity are generally able to be safe, but a lot of people (like me) don't know enough to know whether we're safe or not.

    As for the absence of cool spots, unless you're rigorously testing this with a bunch of sensors, it would seem to be difficult to be sure.

    I wish you all the best, but I still don't think that people should be trying to replicate this.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  12. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 14:27:12
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    Nobugsonme - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Hi bedbugdefcon,
    I think it's worth reiterating that this may work for you, but isn't for everyone and people should not try and replicate it.
    As David said above,

    I appreciate that you mean well but for something to be of value to people with bedbugs it has to be known to work time after time and that takes long days and testing. In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    ... or their electronic devices, since electronics don't all have the same level of tolerance for heat.
    As buggyinsocal said,
    If done improperly--esp. by people who are not mechanically inclined types, the kinds of creations above could be fire risks. People who know what they're doing with electricity are generally able to be safe, but a lot of people (like me) don't know enough to know whether we're safe or not.

    As for the absence of cool spots, unless you're rigorously testing this with a bunch of sensors, it would seem to be difficult to be sure.
    I wish you all the best, but I still don't think that people should be trying to replicate this.

    Hey, I understand why you posted this but I addressed all those issues when those people brought them up in the thread. Maybe it would help to quote my responses in addition to the questions. Regardless, it's all in the thread for people to read.

  13. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 14:46:27
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    bugdefcon - 15 minutes ago  » 

    Nobugsonme - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Hi bedbugdefcon,
    I think it's worth reiterating that this may work for you, but isn't for everyone and people should not try and replicate it.
    As David said above,

    I appreciate that you mean well but for something to be of value to people with bedbugs it has to be known to work time after time and that takes long days and testing. In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    ... or their electronic devices, since electronics don't all have the same level of tolerance for heat.
    As buggyinsocal said,
    If done improperly--esp. by people who are not mechanically inclined types, the kinds of creations above could be fire risks. People who know what they're doing with electricity are generally able to be safe, but a lot of people (like me) don't know enough to know whether we're safe or not.

    As for the absence of cool spots, unless you're rigorously testing this with a bunch of sensors, it would seem to be difficult to be sure.
    I wish you all the best, but I still don't think that people should be trying to replicate this.

    Hey, I understand why you posted this but I addressed all those issues when those people brought them up in the thread. Maybe it would help to quote my responses in addition to the questions. Regardless, it's all in the thread for people to read.

    Sorry, but I have read the entire thread and I don't see where you've fully addressed those concerns.

  14. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 15:22:33
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    Nobugsonme - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Sorry, but I have read the entire thread and I don't see where you've fully addressed those concerns.

    The same can be said for pretty much everything discussed on this forum. The issues we've discussed in the last couple of posts have been discussed in this thread. It's up to people to read it and make up their own minds.

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 16:36:49
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    bugdefcon - 1 hour ago  » 

    Nobugsonme - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Sorry, but I have read the entire thread and I don't see where you've fully addressed those concerns.

    The same can be said for pretty much everything discussed on this forum. The issues we've discussed in the last couple of posts have been discussed in this thread. It's up to people to read it and make up their own minds.

    Well, let me point out one of my points you haven't fully responded to:


    As for the absence of cool spots, unless you're rigorously testing this with a bunch of sensors, it would seem to be difficult to be sure.

    You do not state that you've used multiple sensors to test this.

    I've seen the types of sensors people use who test bed bug ovens, and I've seen reports of machines having cold spots. You talk about using a thermometer in multiple places one after another, but that's not the same thing. I see you plan to get a bunch of thermometers, but until it has been done, you haven't proven there are no cold spots.

    Also, David's comment:

    In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    I took this to be a response to your standard disclaimer:

    "I'm relating what I'm doing and I'm in no way advocating that other people do the same."

    If that's true then why have you responded on two other threads (besides this one) today talking about the usefulness of your "bed bug death machine"?

    Please don't take offense, but it seems like you are trying to promote the idea to others, when you do that.

  16. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 17:37:43
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    Nobugsonme - 32 minutes ago  » 

    bugdefcon - 1 hour ago  » 

    Nobugsonme - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Sorry, but I have read the entire thread and I don't see where you've fully addressed those concerns.

    The same can be said for pretty much everything discussed on this forum. The issues we've discussed in the last couple of posts have been discussed in this thread. It's up to people to read it and make up their own minds.

    Well, let me point out one of my points you haven't fully responded to:


    As for the absence of cool spots, unless you're rigorously testing this with a bunch of sensors, it would seem to be difficult to be sure.

    You do not state that you've used multiple sensors to test this.
    I've seen the types of sensors people use who test bed bug ovens, and I've seen reports of machines having cold spots. You talk about using a thermometer in multiple places one after another, but that's not the same thing. I see you plan to get a bunch of thermometers, but until it has been done, you haven't proven there are no cold spots.
    Also, David's comment:
    In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    I took this to be a response to your standard disclaimer:
    "I'm relating what I'm doing and I'm in no way advocating that other people do the same."

    If that's true then why have you responded on two other threads (besides this one) today talking about the usefulness of your "bed bug death machine"?
    Please don't take offense, but it seems like you are trying to promote the idea to others, when you do that.

    No offense taken and no offense offered. We are just having a discussion.

    As for the discussion of cool spots. I said in response.

    "As for cool spots. There really aren't any. That's a big reason for using an insulated container and allowing the temperature to stabilize. The entire interior is effectively the same temperature."

    It's a sealed insulated container. By it's nature, it normalizes to the same temperature. Also, I did use one thermometer very early in the process but if you look 2 sentences down I wrote that I ordered a bunch more.

    "I've ordered a bunch of thermometers for that so that I will have an array of them all over the container."

    I use multiple thermometers at the same time located in different spots to monitor the temperature. When it comes up to temperature and it normalizes, the temperature is effectively the same across all the thermometers. There's going to be a little variation for no other reason than two thermometers will not read the same even at the same temperature.

    As for this.

    In your case where you are putting out just an idea you still need to think about your personal liability and the safety of others who may try to copy what you do and harm themselves.

    Once again, the same can be said for a lot of what is posted on this forum. How many threads contain posts from people telling other people what to do? Not simply relaying personal experience with disclaimers of such. But coming out and advocating action with guarantees of success. Here is a quote from a recent post.

    I am a huge fan of things being simple and easy so my suggestion would be pop it in the PackTite and be confident that it will work time after time

    It's not it might work. It's not it probably will work. It's "confident that it will work time after time". What happens if it doesn't work? What happens if the device malfunctions? Say the heater stops working. What happens if a gravid female embedded in a deep mass of clothing survives the process and infests a home. Is that poster personally liable for that outcome? It's not an isolated statement. Those statements happen time and time again.

    Nobugsonme - 32 minutes ago  » 
    Please don't take offense, but it seems like you are trying to promote the idea to others, when you do that.

    The irony is that to me it that seems like many of the posts on this forum are promoting commercial products with financial benefit. Many times, they read like commercials.

  17. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Jul 16 2013 17:50:03
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    Yawn, the record seems to be stuck, there is nothing new or helpful to your posts.

    Since you have stopped just short of accusing me of recommending things I profit from let me make this clear. If I could gain from a recommendation I declare that in accordance with the AUP and FTC. As PackTite is a US and Canada only product and I am in the UK I can't benefit and don't.

    Frankly I fail to see where you are trying to go with your hobiest strategy. If you are confident your concept works send one to London for testing, if there are cool spots I will find them I have with all the other engineers products which are out there.

    David

  18. bugdefcon

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    Tue Jul 16 2013 18:07:11
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    bed-bugscouk - 2 minutes ago  » 
    Frankly I fail to see where you are trying to go with your hobiest strategy. If you are confident your concept works send one to London for testing, if there are cool spots I will find them I have with all the other engineers products which are out there.
    David

    And here's the attitude. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but I simply don't believe much of what you have to say. Yes, when it comes to identifying pictures of bedbugs, I'm with you. Other things? No need to rehash those threads here.

  19. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 18:12:07
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    That's your prerogative but until I see and test this I don't believe your claims that it works but hey at least I have lots of testimonials to back up my work and claims.

    Personally I don't think you are here to do anything other than troll and your posting history stands testimony to that.

    David

  20. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 18:16:22
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    bed-bugscouk - 1 minute ago  » 
    That's your prerogative but until I see and test this I don't believe your claims that it works but hey at least I have lots of testimonials to back up my work and claims.
    Personally I don't think you are here to do anything other than troll and your posting history stands testimony to that.
    David

    OK. I feel the same about your claims. We are in agreement then.

  21. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Jul 16 2013 18:26:37
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    Yes but the huge difference between you and me is that when challenged I can back up what I say with proof and I think it's clear only one of us is both here to help and qualified to help. The raw data is in my reports and the original data files are available for inspection should you wish to review them.

    If you want pick someone to test your product, send it to them, ask them to send me detailed pictures and I will predict where it's most likely to fail and they can run a full diagnostic on it to see who is right.

    Please understand that today I have dealt with more cases of bedbugs than you have in the last few years and I am not even in my own country. I am in the alps working with a resort to decon hotels and put the best systems in place to resolve their issues in the future.

    It may just be best however if we ignore each other so I can concentrate on helping people who need it.

    David

  22. bugdefcon

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    Tue Jul 16 2013 19:32:34
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    bed-bugscouk - 59 minutes ago  » 
    Yes but the huge difference between you and me is that when challenged I can back up what I say with proof and I think it's clear only one of us is both here to help and qualified to help.

    Strange, I thought you failed to back up what you said as fact in another thread. You presented a paper as your proof and drew a conclusion that the paper itself did not draw. Once again, no need to rehash another thread here. That's the difference between you and me. I present my opinions as just that, opinions. You present yours as fact. Or am I misreading your intent?

    As for ignoring one another, it's been my plan to ignore you for quite sometime. I have no idea what your post history is. You seem to be keeping track of mine. I'm glad we are finally on the same page. I can now get back to the ignoring.

  23. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Jul 16 2013 19:47:33
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    Yawn.

    I quoted the paper but said the data I spoke of was presented at at conference which included video illustrating the point very clearly. The bedbugs ran towards the convective heat source and went to the cool spots with conductive. Now yes maybe it's possible the academic trained the bedbugs to move on cue but I doubt it.

    Since you don't want to subject your theoretical device to testing our discussion is over and yes it's easy to keep track of your posts when they are only ever on the one subject and always dodge the questions put to you.

    Please don't feel the need to respond unless you want to arrange testing.

    David

  24. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Jul 17 2013 2:02:05
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    bugdefcon - 8 hours ago  » 

    The irony is that to me it that seems like many of the posts on this forum are promoting commercial products with financial benefit. Many times, they read like commercials.

    It's a little bit different suggesting people construct something and run their electronics through it (which may not be safe for all electronics, if it's even necessary), and suggesting use of a product which has been found to work by lots of people.

    That the forum posts come off as commercials is not my intention.

    In terms of advertising, I run affiliate ads here for products which people here -- experts and site users -- find helpful, and some of those are the same products I suggest in posts if people are looking for various solutions. (I also often recommend products we don't run ads for, like Mattress Safe.) And most of these products have independent testing data supporting their value. (Note, I'm not referring here to ads besides affiliate ads -- the ones marked as being from Media.net or the company famous for its search engine.)

    Moreover, people recommending products, including me, are paying customers of those products -- so it's a bit different than a commercial.

    I would also add that the site could bring in a lot more revenue if we ran ads for every company that wanted to hawk something here. Instead, I turn most down.

    I'd love to run the site with no ads, but there are costs to running it (for seven years) and I wouldn't be able to do it if the site were not bringing in some funds. I try to advertise responsibly and without annoying people too much, and we have rules about people promoting their own products.

    If you or anyone else wants to give me constructive feedback on this topic, I'd truly welcome it in an email (here's the contact form) -- and you can also click "report this post" next to any post you think is a violation of the forum rules. "Report this post" doesn't work for the site owner, but feel free to use the contact form if you have complaints about my posts. I mean that sincerely.

  25. bugdefcon

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Fri Jul 19 2013 13:16:49
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    Nobugsonme - 2 days ago  » 
    It's a little bit different suggesting people construct something and run their electronics through it (which may not be safe for all electronics, if it's even necessary), and suggesting use of a product which has been found to work by lots of people.

    And there's a big difference between relaying personal experience versus guaranteeing that a device is foolproof as a well established fact.

    I haven't suggested anyone do as I do. I'm offering up my personal experience. You said I mentioned my device in other threads. I did so simply because it's what I use. I didn't say anything about others building their own. All I've said is what I've done.

    As for whether to heat treat electronics. You and I have discussed this a few times in the past. I agree that people should check with their manufacturer. Just make sure you ask them the right questions. Many manufacturers will give you an optimal operating temperature range. There can a variety of reasons for this. One is you. It's a comfortable range for the human operator. That's why most laptop manufactuers also warn about using a laptop on your lap.

    "Do not leave the bottom of your MacBook Pro in contact with your lap or any surface of your body for extended periods."

    Another reason is that the components in electronics can run at very high temperatures. Some up to 100C(212F). That's why there's a cooling system. For any cooling system to function, there needs to be a temperature gradient. There needs to be a cooler place for that system to dump the heat to. That's the air in most cases.

    When heat treating electronics, the more salient numbers are what the components are capable of. Here are numbers for a variety of common components. I'm inserting the farenheit temperatures when needed since most things are quoted in celsius.

    CPU:
    "The mobile processors support up to 100°C(212F) approximately."

    http://en.kioskea.net/faq/2947-cpu-is-overheating-temperature-problem

    LCD Display:
    "Standard TFT Operating Range -10 to 70(C) 14 to 158(F)"

    http://americas.kyocera.com/kicc/lcd/notes/tempconsider.html

    Disk drive:
    "Temperature, Nonoperating (°C) –40 to 70(158F)"

    http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_barracuda_7200_10.pdf

    Battery:
    "Storage Temperature -4º F to 140º F ( -20º C to 60º C)"

    http://support.radioshack.com/support_tutorials/batteries/bt-liion-main.htm

    Those are long term temperatures. Many things can take short term transient spikes. In the case of li-ion batteries.

    "The upper limit for battery storage without permanently damaging a lithium cell, though, can range from 70°C(158F) to 90°C(194F). Some cells will experience thermal runaway with prolonged exposure to 137°C(278.6F), while others will not. However, cell vendors have raised the limit of high-temperature tolerance—that is, brief exposure to temperatures greater than 100°C(212F) without a reduction in cycle life"

    http://electronicdesign.com/power/operating-conditions-get-tougher-li-ion-batteries

    The 50C(122F) heat treatment required for an "instant kill" of bedbugs is under these limits. That's why I've said many times that if people decide to heat treat, that they use a device that has good temperature control.

    Sorry if this is a rehash. I've mentioned some of this in our prior discussions. I thought it would be good to summarize it here.

    So my personal decision is to heat treat electronics. You've repeated stated that you feel otherwise. I'm interested to hear your reasons.

    In short, I think people should do their own research so that they can make an informed decision on how to proceed. Not just for the issues I've discussed in this post, but for most things you read. Don't take anyone's suggestion in isolation. Read about and learn before making your own decision. In this age, all the information you want is readily available.

  26. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Jul 19 2013 19:43:13
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    bugdefcon - 5 hours ago  » 

    Nobugsonme - 2 days ago  » 
    It's a little bit different suggesting people construct something and run their electronics through it (which may not be safe for all electronics, if it's even necessary), and suggesting use of a product which has been found to work by lots of people.

    And there's a big difference between relaying personal experience versus guaranteeing that a device is foolproof as a well established fact.

    To be fair, I don't believe I've claimed anything is foolproof, but maybe that's because I've heard some crazy stories about what people will do outside of a product's instructions (and I'm not talking about the Packtite alone when I say this). I have heard some crazy things.

    That said, I have also seen the rigorous lengths David went to test the Packtite and other bed bug ovens, and this gives me confidence in the product.

    I've seen the sensors he uses and I'm impressed by the degree to which he's tried to find cold spots in various products. That he finds them in other products does make me concerned they may exist here and this hasn't been ruled out by testing yet.

    I wonder if ThermaSpots (FAQ) would be an easy/cheap alternative for testing in multiple parts of the setup?

    I haven't suggested anyone do as I do. I'm offering up my personal experience.

    Yes, I do actually appreciate that very much.

    As for whether to heat treat electronics. You and I have discussed this a few times in the past.
    . . . . [snip] ...

    So my personal decision is to heat treat electronics. You've repeated stated that you feel otherwise. I'm interested to hear your reasons.

    Well, I'm the first to tell you I don't have expertise in this area, so I err on the side of caution.

    When manufacturers tell us not to use their products in certain ways, it makes me concerned. Even if it's a small risk, it's a risk. If Apple says the MacBook Air has a max. storage temperature of 113F, I realize it may briefly go above this while sitting in a car trunk in July, maybe, but I don't want to run it through my Packtite Closet, and generally speaking, I'm going to try to keep within those temperatures. I don't want to (or even know how to go about beginning to) check every component's maximum temps.

    I'm following my personal cautious inclinations to not use the products in this way and I am totally happy with someone like you saying you have done the research, evaluated the situation, and are proceeding in a different way.

    However, there is someone out there who is reading this who will say, "bedbugdefcon says it's safe to heat my laptop to 212F!"

    Now, that's really not what you've said, I know. I get the sense that some people will read it that way.

    We hear all the time from people who, having read a single post on a website (this or another) are willing to try something, but not willing to do the research, assuming that it will work for them. Sometimes they get into a pickle. The people who've blanketed their floors with DE (which poses risks of lung problems, as well as being ineffective) or covered their bodies and gone to sleep in pastes made of DE and tea tree oil (which has got to seriously dry your skin up if nothing else) are doing it because someone else said it was what they did and it worked for them.

    That is not to say your advice isn't sound, it's just to explain why I try to urge caution. In this case, in two areas:

    (1) The Bed Bug Death Machine setup hasn't been tested with lots of sensors, so we don't know if the setup is cold-spot free, and therefore we don't know if it's totally reliable, and people should be aware of that. They should be aware that if they build a machine like yours it might not 100% kill all the bed bugs because there might be cold spots and this hasn't been ruled out by testing yet.

    (Note: yes, in reference to your comments -- no manufactured item is 100% foolproof-- some people don't follow instructions to use a Packtite properly, for example they may overstuff it, assume 4 hours will be enough -- even though a truly packed machine might not get to 120F under some conditions in that time -- and walk away.)

    (2) Computers and their batteries may withstand a variety of temperatures. It may be possible to track down maximum temps for all the components as you have and it may be correct to assume the lowest of these is okay for heat treatment. There's some risk in this kind of thing. I personally would go with the manufacturer's guidelines from the product tech specs. That's super conservative, I'm sure, but I don't have to worry about my warranty being voided. Whether someone is conservative like me or chooses to do their research on their product, as you did, that's fine, but they definitely should do their own research in the latter case.

    And remember, we're repeatedly told bed bugs rarely infest electronics. (Maybe if they're used in hotel beds, that kind of exposure might be a problem?)

    In short, I think people should do their own research so that they can make an informed decision on how to proceed. Not just for the issues I've discussed in this post, but for most things you read. Don't take anyone's suggestion in isolation. Read about and learn before making your own decision. In this age, all the information you want is readily available.

    Per my notes above, I agree 100% on this with the addition that people should consider the expertise of their sources.

    Get the information on temperature withstanding capabilities from the product manufacturer, and do ask if the warranty might be voided by heat treatment even if the product is not damaged (which is one of my concerns).

    My understanding in regard to some warranties is if you later have a malfunctioning product which is brought in for warranty service, it can be refused if there's evidence product has been misused, even if the misuse did not cause this particular malfunction.

    I don't think anyone here should try and heat their electronics without doing that kind of research for themselves and understanding any potential risks.

    I think using a bed bug oven which hasn't been subject to rigorous tests for cold spots is a little risky, and ideally the tests would be done first.


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