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Looks like Im going to be the first field trial of the Beauveria bassiana fungus

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  1. Dave3624

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 3:35:40
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    Greetings, first post but I've been lurking for almost a year. Not sure where to put this post so I'll leave it uncategorized.

    I can't find any mention of anybody else who's tried it, so I will. Recent research shows that the Beauveria bassiana fungus is extremely lethal to bedbugs and in fact when the spores are taken back to the harborage by wandering BBs they infect the other BBs and kill off the harborage.

    http://www.thethomaslab.net/uploads/Barbarin2012.pdf

    I've been fighting bed bugs for 11 months now. PCOs have come several times and they get knocked down for a short bit, then come back.
    Evidenly the strain we're infested with is extremely resistant to pyrethoids.
    You name it, we've done it: bed casing, dusts, sprays, insect grade diatomaceous earth, bagging everything fabric and heating it/DDVPing it, PCO treatments, etc. And now I'm out of money for the PCOs. This house has been drenched in various insecticides.
    The latest defeat was they crossed through a heavily dusted moat of Tempo 1% to get to us and we still got bit, even the bed skirts were dusted with Tempo and the dusting was reapplied weekly. There was an initial downtick of bites but they recovered and after the second week it didnt seem to make any difference. There was so much Tempo laid down I started to get nosebleeds.

    The one success I've had is sealing a room and setting up DDVP strips and a fan. We cleared the two smaller bedrooms that way, however I know for a fact they're in the couch and in the master bedroom (which is too big/open/used to seal for 10 days).
    I'm sure they're also around the house and its only a matter of time before they reinfest the smaller bedrooms even though we've thoroughly dusted with Tempo 1%

    I've had it. Recently I came across the article about the B bassiana fungus, then I researched its safety profile - its been used for decades as a non-insecticide pest control. Its extremely safe, extensively researched and, unless you're severely immuno suppressed, harmless to humans.

    Considering we live in a sea of fungal spores anyway (where do you think mildew comes from) and considering the risk/benefit ratio I believe its worth a try. Its readily available and only 1 pound of wettable powder makes 100 gallons of treatment spray.

    I registered and posted to let everybody know how it goes and to ask if anybody else had/is already tried it.

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 5:36:34
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    Hi,

    When reading your post above one thing springs to mind. Have tried focusing on how the bedbugs are getting into your home rather than better ways to kill them.

    I would not be surprised if you have a "local" source infestation in progress and in which case stopping the source of the drip is more important than building bigger buckets.

    There has been some discussion already on the fungus approach and there are some reservations about treating peoples home with broadcast sprays. If however the spores can have enough of an effect it becomes a matter of finding the best way to bring the bedbugs into contact with a controlled source of them which I have thoughts about but are probably best discussed via PM.

    Good luck though.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  3. Dave3624

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 14:00:11
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    I'm not sure where they could be coming into the house, it's at least 100 feet away from any other dwelling, and we dont have many vistors (semi-rural area). My work is a combined office/industrial setting so it's unlikely I'm carrying them home with me.

    My intention is to treat the spray the same way I used the Tempo dust and propoxur: wide area spray around/under the beds and concentrated applications in the bed frame, boxspring and along the baseboards and anything with nooks and crannies that looks like it could be a good harborage within 20 feet of the beds.

  4. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 14:43:01
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    Hi,

    Sorry you have misunderstood the term I used, it is not just limited to coming from adjoining neighbours it denotes a source you come into contact with on a regular basis as opposed to a "single source" or place you only visit once.

    If you search the forum for posts on infestation dynamics you will see what I mean.

    If you are planning to mix all those treatment options I would strongly advise you not to until you have a better understanding and action plan or you could end up with a toxic soup of a home.

    David

  5. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 14:43:32
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    Hi Dave,
    No one has tried it and I personally don't think people should until further testing has been done.

    Be safe!

    I am also moving this to "free for all" -- "uncategorized" is not intended to be a catch-all.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  6. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Dec 16 2012 23:44:42
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    Dave3624
    You are correct that there are almost always mold spores present in an occupied space... and I am not saying that these spores are linked to causing a specific illness in humans, but I urge you to consult with a physician that specializes in immune system disorders such as an allergist.

    If your immune system does become sensitized to these spores... It will be extremely difficult to "put that genie back in the bottle"... in other words, it will be very difficult and expensive to remove the spores from your home environment after they have been introduced... It is much easier to clean up pesticide residue than remove mold spores.

    I appreciate that you are feeling desperate after having tried multiple chemical pesticide treatments without success, but having your family serve as test subjects rather than tracking down the source as David pointed out may be ill advised... Try communicating with David via PM about IPM approaches to identify the source before you experiment with an approach that could result in unintended consequences..

    I specialize in mold remediation... I have 10 years of experience and I am licensed in the state of Florida... Microcleaning to remove unwanted spores from an indoor environment can be more expensive than pest control.

    Your immune system has already been dealing with the toxic effects of the pesticide agents and bed bug bites.... Giving David's IPM approach a try would be a better choice than utilizing an unapproved fungal treatment that has only been tested in a laboratory setting.

    I have dealt with bed bugs in my home and I have some insight into the physical and emotional toll that is experienced during an infestation... I believe that you have safer options, but please check with a qualified medical professional before turning your home an experiment and your loved ones into test subjects.

    Some immune systems can tolerate high levels of mold exposure without any apparent harm, but I deal with hundreds of clients that have become sensitized to mold spores and can assure you that you do not want to go down that road when you still have better options available... This is not an approach that I would try, if I was in your situation.

    Feel free to contact me via PM if you want to discuss mold spore exposure issues in greater detail... I urge you to give David's IPM approach a try and consult with qualified medical experts first.

    I go into environments with high levels of spores for a living and have an opinion that is based on experience and training... make sure that you fully understand the potential consequences before becoming a human guinea pig.

    Let us know about your progress... we are happy to provide additional resources and options for you.

    Doug

  7. anothervictim

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 6:41:15
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    Dave3624, don't listen to these naysayers.. I researched the fungus after I read your post and all the literature I read said that it's perfectly safe for humans.. you are a pioneer. Spray everything and see if it knocks these disgusting parasites out.. if it works, the knowledge of it will spread, and it will be the most popular product since umbrellas.. I'm gooing to research it more now, because I'm excited about it's possibilities.

  8. blargg

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 7:38:21
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    anothervictim - 53 minutes ago  » 
    Dave3624, don't listen to these naysayers.. I researched the fungus after I read your post and all the literature I read said that it's perfectly safe for humans.. you are a pioneer. Spray everything and see if it knocks these disgusting parasites out.. if it works, the knowledge of it will spread, and it will be the most popular product since umbrellas.. I'm gooing to research it more now, because I'm excited about it's possibilities.

    I'd let the original poster trust Doug Summers or David before taking advice to "spray everything" from someone who just did some on-the-fly research. OP, before you introduce the chemical into your home, think long and hard about what you're doing!

  9. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 7:53:52
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    Hi,

    For the record can I point out they sell few umbrellas in Las Vegas or the Sahara.

    The point being that "universal solutions" rarely work universally.

    I am sure most f us call recall issues that do occur with new technologies and approaches be that medical or environmental. Its best not to "have a go" and see what happens in your own home.

    David

  10. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 9:06:20
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    bed-bugscouk - 1 hour ago  » 

    I am sure most f us call recall issues that do occur with new technologies and approaches be that medical or environmental. Its best not to "have a go" and see what happens in your own home.

    Absolutely.

    When this method has been tested and approved, by all means go for it.

    Until then, experimenting on yourself is not a smart move.

    If you're in an attached home or apartment you may also be putting others unknowingly at risk.

    I am sorry that the original poster has had bed bugs for 11 months but I suspect the reason is more complicated than having an untreatable strain-- which does not exist as far as we have heard. Instead, as David noted above, re-exposure or continued exposure sounds like a real possibility.

  11. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 11:50:26
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    another victim

    Could you post some links to the research you are referring to in your comment.... I have never seen a professional research study that has described a bio-pesticide agent as "perfectly safe"... All pesticide agents have some levels of toxicity... Even products that have an excellent safety profile can be a problem for some individuals.

    Anytime you step outside of a "clean room" laboratory there will be some concentration of fungal spores present in the air but that doesn't mean that it is "perfectly safe" to live 24/7 in an indoor environment with viable fungal spores... Immune system reactions vary from person to person... It is highly individual and your status can change after prolonged exposure.

    It takes several years and over 100 million dollars to perform all of the required safety testing before a pesticide product is EPA approved and labeled... every label that I have ever read included caution statements.

    My main point is that there are safer and potentially better alternatives available... I agree fully with David's assessment that it is highly likely that there is a "local source" involved in an infestation that has persisted for 11 months despite the use of multiple pesticide agents and the involvement of professional applicators.

    My second point is that fungal spores are extremely difficult and expensive to clean up after they have been introduced into the indoor environment, if the "experiment" creates a problem... I seriously doubt that a standard homeowners policy will cover the abatement of fungal spores that were deliberately applied in a residence as an unlabeled, unapproved bio-pesticide.

    Everyone wants to find a silver bullet to eradicate bed bugs and I can only imagine the stress that the writer has endured after an 11 month infestation, but turning your family into test subjects is not a decision that I can endorse when there are safer proven alternatives.

    Cyanide gas fumigation has a proven historical efficacy, but it resulted in hundreds of deaths when it was in use... Vikane gas has been shown to be 99.7% effective and thermal treatment is also highly effective, but even these treatments will fail over time, if a local source of re-infestation is present. Which is essentially the point that David was making in his original comment

    If you wish to assert that Beauveria bassiana fungus is "perfectly safe"... please cite the evidence.

    To my knowledge, it has not been tested under the same EPA protocols for indoor use like other labeled pesticide agents and it is irresponsible to claim that it is "perfectly safe" until that research has been performed.

    Keep in mind that propoxur is approved for cockroaches, but the EPA has refused to allow its use for bed bugs because of concerns about safety.

  12. NorthEast

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 14:16:47
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    I think Doug Summers comments make good sense and the idea of not experimenting with your home is good common sense. I think this comment says it all

    "There was so much Tempo laid down I started to get nosebleeds."

    I've used Tempo for a long time and it can be very irritating if accidently inhaled, I can't even imagine dusting so freely with it as described by the original poster. If someone is going to be that loose with a product (Tempo) that has a well defined label I can only imagine how many problems could be a result of their next attempt at bed bug control.

  13. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 16:22:01
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    Here is a link to the article that was published earlier this year for anyone that is interested in reviewing the original source of this research.

    http://www.thethomaslab.net/uploads/Barbarin2012.pdf

    The authors state that this was the first study to evaluate the potential of Beauveria bassiana for use as a bio-pesticide with bed bugs... although it has been evaluated on other outdoor species.

  14. anothervictim

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 20:49:14
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    Dougsummers, I certainly CAN post a number of links to the research I've read.. but all you really need to do is go to wiki and type "beauveria bassiana" and you'll find that not only is it a safe fungus used as a pesticide for many years, but that there is also only one kniwn infection of a human, which was a human with a compromised immune system. This product is perfectly safe for any nirmal human, and is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT EFFECTIVE in killing literally hundreds of species of insect.. I can't get into detauls right niw, but I'm going to try it.. it sounds great.. maybe you shouldn't be such a naysayer and try it!!

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 21:04:06
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    DougSummersMS - 4 hours ago  » 
    Here is a link to the article that was published earlier this year for anyone that is interested in reviewing the original source of this research.
    http://www.thethomaslab.net/uploads/Barbarin2012.pdf
    The authors state that this was the first study to evaluate the potential of Beauveria bassiana for use as a bio-pesticide with bed bugs... although it has been evaluated on other outdoor species.

    The study also notes that,

    Overall, this study represents an important first step in develop- ing B. bassiana as a biopesticide for use against bed bugs within novel strategies of integrated pest management. Further research is now required to develop appropriate formulations and delivery systems to investigate population level impact under more realistic ‘semi-field’ and ‘field’ settings.

    another victim,

    If you want to experiment on your home with a method which has only begun to be tested, despite all advice to the contrary, you will doubtless do that. Good luck to you.

    Please, however, do not recommend that others try these methods which are not proven to work and be safe in field settings, and which have not been approved by the EPA.

  16. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Tue Dec 18 2012 22:49:19
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    another victim
    I have performed some limited research and found an article that documented 8 distinct reports of human illness directly linked to fungal infections due to Beauveria Vuill exposure... some of these cases were with individuals that had compromised immune systems and others may be linked to a related species or could not be confirmed to be Beauveria genus... The literature does suggest that these fungal infections appear to be rare.

    As I noted in my original comment

    I am not saying that these spores are linked to causing a specific illness in humans, but I urge you to consult with a physician that specializes in immune system disorders such as an allergist.

    The issue that is not addressed in any of the articles that I have read so far is a hypersensitivity reaction... which is why I recommended consulting a medical specialist such as an allergist before conducting an experiment in one's residence... I used to be a paramedic, but I am not a physician and I am trained as a mold remediation specialist to refrain from offering medical advice for obvious reasons

    I also have not yet found any studies that have evaluated the use of this bio-pesticide in an indoor environment... If you look at the references that were included in the study that I linked... You will not see any evaluations of human safety or the potential impacts when applied to a bed skirt with a human sleeping in the bed for several hours a night (which the authors speculated would be a possible route of application for the material)

    I stand by my earlier comment that viable spore material would be extremely difficult and expensive to remove... if airborne spores needed to be removed from an indoor environment.

    The study that I linked is the first and only published study that evaluated the possible use for bed bug eradication... It has clearly not been tested to the standards that are required for EPA approval and has not been properly labeled for indoor use.

    I used to be a professional skydiver... I have a strong libertarian belief that people have a right to choose to take risks... but I would compare broadcast spraying of an oil solution containing Beauveria bassiana on your bed to skydiving with a new parachute design that has never been tested without a reserve parachute... It is simply not a wise choice.

    I still take issue with your unsupported assertion that the material is perfectly safe... that claim has yet to be established by scientific research on human subjects.

    The oil solution that was used in that study may cause adverse health effects in a sensitized individual... even without the Beauveria bassiana conidia submerged in the oily solution

    If you choose to make yourself a test subject... You are a bigger risk taker than I am... and trust me I have come within a second or two of hitting the earth at high speed a couple of times in the course of making over 1600 jumps... and pioneering the art of forming parachute formations in midair when it was still considered by the skydiving community to be a surefire way to get yourself killed... People wanted to take out life insurance on me as an investment when I was 21 years old.

    I sincerely wish you the best of luck... but personally... I wouldn't try it until it has been much more thoroughly researched... You are jumping off a cliff without a Plan B in place.

    If you have identified research studies where this experimental product has been proven to be safe in an occupied environment... please post the links... I would love to read them

  17. endless_nightmare

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Wed Dec 19 2012 3:06:40
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    Hello, I discussed this option with some health care workers at social services

    I'm in a very similar situation as the OP but my infestation has been dragging for 14 months now, can't believe this will be my second New Years day with bed bugs

    I have too seen bed bugs crawl in various pyrethroid with absolutely no effects. I'm extremely desperate, but I've been warned that if you are allergic to spores, you can get major breathing problems, and it sneaks on you, then you can get a chronic type of breathing illness...

    I am however curious as to where to obtain this stuff, I haven't seen it advertised for bed bugs

    Andrea
    not a PCO
    Spinal Cord Injury Advocacy/Volunteer
  18. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 8:07:22
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    Dougsummers, it seems like u DON'T have bed bugs.. I've tried diatomaceous earth, delta dust, lavender oil, double sided tape, eucalyptous oil, bed bug traps, vaselone on the perimeter of the ceiling, BUYING a washer and dryer, intsalling a gas line, hot shot bed bug bombs, bed bug spray, isopropyl rubbing alcohal, baking soda, and EVERY OTHER THING I've read about on the internet.. if you go on WIKI, you will find that all the research for beauveria has been done long ago, and that you can BUY it as a PEST CONTROL POWDER at most HYDROPONIC STORES. It had been used for YEARS to get rid of HUNDREDS OF DIFFERENT TYPE OF SINSECTS.. in fact, after doing the research myself, I was shocked that it is not the FIRST thing people use.. Beauveria is the ONLY thing I've read about the makes bed bugs INFECT EACH OTHER and die off.. in other words, they take it back to their places of rest, deeep within the walls, and INFECT OTHERS, until no more remain.. by the way you write on here, I think you don't have bed bugs.. I'm going to get this stuff and use it. Don't be a naysayer bro.

  19. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 8:13:49
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    Listen people, if the writer of this thread doesn't end up trying it, I will.. I will be the first guinnea pig I don't care.. go read about beauveria at WIKI.. you will be pleasently surprised.. as soon as you read everything about it, you want it in your hands.. I'm gonna use it.. if it succeeds, everything is gonna change for MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

  20. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 8:21:27
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    Fougsummers, listen man.. I don't want to sound offensive, but nobody cares if u used to be a paramecic.. nobody cares if u claim u were trained as a mold specialist or something.. nobody CARES that u say you uded to be a skydiver.. we care about GETTING RID OF BED BUGS. I don't think you even HAVE bed bugs or EVER DID.. Step aside and let the real G's do they thing. We goin to war wit these aliens for 2013!

  21. DougSummersMS

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 9:48:38
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    Let us know how that works out for you

    good luck
    Doug

  22. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 10:26:25
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    Hi anothervictim,

    Setting aside the tone of your posts which I do actually find a little rude and offensive would you be willing to stake your wiki-research and confidence on the line and accept any liability that occurs through the use of this approach?

    As the research states:

    Further research is now required to develop appropriate formulations and delivery systems

    To put a little meat on the bones here this may and will most likley turn out to be a harbourage containing a source of the spores that bedbugs come into contact with and thus transfer the spores to other refugia.

    The probability of this being used as a broad spectrum spray application is extremely low due to the rather obvious issues of mold remediation, in fact I will go as far as to say you are more likley to find a 100% accurate article on wikipedia in 3 months of 24/7 reading.

    In fact let me make this clear quoting an unreferenced source on wikipedia is akin to say "your sisters aunts friend knew someone that they met in the super market that knew someone who once did something". In fact it took 3 years of repeatedly editing the bedbug page to get the half witted idiot who sits on it to agree that bedbugs were not exclusively active at night and that is just one of the many errors in that section.

    Now in your list of what you have tried I have to say almost all of them are known not to be effective, tapes, baking soda and oils being the most noted. Have you considered that the experience and perspective of a professional might actually be what you need. I often have to explain it to people that like all jobs the more of it you do the better at it you get, most of my team deal with more cases by 1pm each day than most people do in a lifetime so it stands to reason that part of what professionals should bring is experience from multiple sites.

    I will however say I am glad Doug used to be a paramedic, it makes he very valuable to have around here because he is used to looking at medical issues and has experience of working in high stress situations and environments. He has a good track record of being a very valuable contributor to this forum and the wider world of bedbug knowledge and I am specifically known for not praising others so that statement actually carries a lot of weight.

    The reality here is that you are in a public forum and your assertions that its all going to be OK are not based on any primary knowledge or information. We cant stop you doing this in your own home but please DO NOT FOR A SECOND THINK WE WILL SIT BY AND ALLOW YOU TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO STUPID THINGS IN THEIR HOMES WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE RISKS AND MAKING INFORMED DECISIONS.

    Yes bedbugs can induce very high emotional states in people and part of that stress may be clouding your judgement here because quite frankly fighting with those who are here to help and have a lot more experience than you will not do you any good.

    I sincerely hope you read this and get the point I am making.

    David

  23. Nobugsonme

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    Endless_nightmare wrote,

    I have too seen bed bugs crawl in various pyrethroid with absolutely no effects. I'm extremely desperate, but I've been warned that if you are allergic to spores, you can get major breathing problems, and it sneaks on you, then you can get a chronic type of breathing illness...

    I am however curious as to where to obtain this stuff, I haven't seen it advertised for bed bugs
    I have too seen bed bugs crawl in various pyrethroid with absolutely no effects. I'm extremely desperate, but I've been warned that if you are allergic to spores, you can get major breathing problems, and it sneaks on you, then you can get a chronic type of breathing illness...

    I am however curious as to where to obtain this stuff, I haven't seen it advertised for bed bugs

    I am sorry you still have bed bugs.

    Please note that while some strains are resistant to pyrethroids that's not the same as saying they can't be killed by pesticides or other currently approved methods.

    The reasons you have not seen this fungus advertised for bed bugs is because it's just at the beginning and experimental stage. It is not approved for treating bed bugs and no one knows how to do that safely and effectively in a home using this substance, if it can indeed be done.

    I am sorry you're going through that and I hope you are able to get a resolution soon.
    In your situation, it sounds like there may be a source of continuing infestation (what David calls a "local source" infestation) like attached neighbors with an untreated or undertreated problem.

  24. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 11:11:17
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    Another victim,

    Doug knows an awful lot about bed bugs and never claimed to have them currently. He's a valued member of the forum as is David and other experts who donate their time. That they're trying to talk you out of something experimental and untested in field settings speaks highly of their intelligence.

    Please note we have a rule in the forum about civility and you might want to read those rules.

    I have to say, though, I do like your word "SINSECTS". That can be our new name for bed bugs.

  25. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 12:38:43
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    Hey man, I don't mean to disrespect anyone.. I'm cool wit doug if he's cool wit me.. but. Check it out: ppl have used this beauveria bassiana as a foliar spray on weed plants for decades.. its availale at any hydroponic store.. I read thru wiki and many other sources that its safe for humans.. i'vve smoked cigarettes for 20 years, and used to work with asbestos.. I got diatomaceous earth laying everywhere.. bassiana's the least of our problems.. I want these muthaf*ckas GONE. I'm Wwilling to take the risks.. this doug fella. Don't have bedbugs.. I'm out in the feild living it, fighting it, everyday.. I'm goin in. Banzzzaaaaiiii!!

  26. buggyinsyracuse

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 12:40:09
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    Yeah, um, good luck with that. Keep us posted, if you don't wind up in the hospital that is.

  27. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 12:46:16
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    Yo.. dougy, u say " Further research is now required to develop appropriate formulations and delivery systems".. guess what: the delivery system is THIS: buy it from a hydro store, put it in a spray bottle with water.. shake it uo.. spray every crack and crevice.. spray the carpet aroubd your bed.. spray the bed posts.. spray the walls.. spray the outlets.. spray EVERY SINGLE THINF U CAN.. Let dry.. bed bugs WILL crawl thru it.. when they do, the spores will attach themselves to the bed bugs and the bed bugs will take it BACK to their harborage and, unlike naything else known to us, INFECT OTHERS.. it's gonna be a haulocaust for these muthaf*ckas straight up.. THAT'S THE DELIVERY SYSTEM, FRIEND.. Ok guys.. I'm goin in.. BANZZZAAAAAIIIIII!!!!!

  28. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 12:52:06
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    Dude, I'm not gonna end up in the hospital..I've smoked a pack of NEWPORTS a day fro 20 years, I've worked with asbestos, I've lived in mold infested partments.. I have diatomaceous earth laying everywhere.. beauveria bassiana is the least threat to me.. I'm gooin in.. BANNZZAAAAIIIIIII!!

  29. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 12:56:45
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    Hi,

    If your friend needed neuro surgery would you read up on wiki and give it a go.

    Respectfully your concept of delivery system is not what we actually mean by the term. I tried to be polite in pointing that out in the post above but let me be 100% clear so others know not to make your mistake.

    If you can localise the spores to an area that bedbugs are attracted to then they will come into contact with t quite quickly and transfer back to others in the refugia. As we know a lot about harbourage faithfulness from Richard Naylors research work as long as the effect was not immediate then within 10 - 15 days most of the bedbugs would be exposed and dying.

    If you make it act too quickly then the transfer will not be effective so like DE and other physical killing agents the mode of action needs to be slower.

    However the massive flaw in the logic of this approach is basically that if you have an effective harbourage that they locate into which can be removed you hardly need to add the spores to the mix.

    Please don't treat you home as if it was foliage int he garden because one would hope it is not actually the same kind of environment.

    FINALLY AND AS A POTENTIAL REASON WHY YOUR POSTS NEED TO BE EDITED NEVER MIX LIQUIDS WITH ELECTRICS SO YOUR SUGGESTION ABOUT SPRAYING OUTLETS IS WORTHY OF A DARWIN AWARD.

    Please stop and think about what you are doing before you create an absolute mess of your home.

    David

  30. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 13:03:41
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    Hey David, you just won the "Bible Award" for being so unrealistic.. if you don't know about spraying electrical outlets, let me introduce you to the breakers in the fusebox.. nuff said. And as far as your other comments go, I've tried to be polite in my explanations, but I continue to have to obviate your hostile cavils: spraying your walls, floor, etc, is FAR from being analogous to performing NEUROSURGERY ON YOUR FRIEND.. If you think they are comparable, then you've just won another bible award, buddy.. contrary to what these naysayers say, I'm goin in... BANZZZZAAAAIIIII!!!!!

  31. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 13:15:03
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    Hi,

    Please hurry up and go in.

    At least you will be stopping the spread of stupid ideas and information.

    I suggest you speak to an electrician and explain that you want to use the circuit breaker to allow your to spray inside the outlets on the walls and on the floors. [comment deleted]

    If you are so hell bent on doing this then stop trolling online and understand that we tried to help you but there is no amount of logic capable of opening up a closed mind.

    Good luck and please people have the common sense not to follow this stupid advice.

    David

  32. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 13:36:14
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    [Personal attack deleted.] I have tried repeatedly to enlighten you, but YOU (A PERSON THAT DOESN'T HAVE BED BUGS) are uncapable of being reached, just as you are incapable to stop TROLLING. I am here to do one thing.. GET RID OF BED BUGS. And if I succeed with myself, it will change the lives of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. Beauveria Bassiana could be the key to eradicating these disgusting parasites, but people like you and doug, who don't even HAVE bed bugs, are all up in our business with your sideline philosophy.. you are armchair critics.. sit back and WATCH while real street soldiers do they thing, pops.. nuff said.. and btw, Beauveria Bassiana has been used in spray bottles for grow rooms for decades.. its READILY aailable to consumers, unlike the toxic chemicals that ortho uses.. so what do you make of that, buddy boy? I don't care what you arm-chair critics have to say.. I'm goiong in.. BAAAAANNNZZZZAAAAIIIIII!!!!

  33. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 13:47:33
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    another victim,

    As I noted earlier about Doug -- and the same is true of David -- he never claimed to have bed bugs. They help other people find and eliminate them. They are bona fide experts. I don't expect you to have any interests in that, but consider that you might want to stick around and read a forum for a bit before you make assumptions about people who've been here for years.

    Also, calling people names and attacking people personally is not permitted on the forums. It's uncivil. You can attack ideas, but in terms of this thread, I think everyone is beating a dead horse.

    If you're not interested in the opinions of people with vastly more experience with bed bugs than your own, then what purpose do you have here?

  34. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 14:01:22
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    First off, my "personal attack" that you deleted was a direct mirror of the personal attack that individual made on me. I find it interesting that u deleted my sentence about obivating cavils.. you're telling me that him calling my ideas "stupid" is on a PERSONAL ATTACK? It clearly is. And let me tell you something about these "bonafide experts": They are bonafide experts in doing NOTHING. They are experts at taking our MONEY. They are experts at being UNSUCCESSFUL. Who is an expert at GETTING RID OF BED BUGS? Show me that person. They wuill be our leader, not some self-righteous old guy that has to repeatedly give himself accolades of all kinds and mention his supposed credentials.. we don't CARE about his self-gratuitous remarks.. we care about TGETTING RID OF BED BUGS.

  35. anothervictim

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 14:08:19
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    The product we need to get is called BOTANIGARD.. Furthermore, it is called botanigard ES. It has to have the ES on there, cuz that is the one that is based on beauveria bassiana.. it will kill each insect with a 100 percent success rate, after 5 days of coming into contact with it.. this is perfect, because the time frame is long enough to allow them to INFECT others but short enouh to win in a race against their continued reproduction. I am goong to order mine online, because I cannot find a local retailer.. to the moderator, good luck.. abd to the people on here that don't have bed bugs, watch and learn from a soldier in the war.

    [Admin note: the methods this poster has suggested have not been tested in a field setting. The product is not approved for fighting bed bugs, and the method has not been tested in any homes, to my knowledge. There is, therefore, no "100% success rate" (as claimed above) on this method for killing bed bugs in homes, or any record at all. It is as such not a good idea to attempt this until further formal research has been done and the product has been approved for this use and as David notes, application methods and dosage have been formulated. ]

  36. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 14:25:47
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    Hi,

    Now I hate to point out just how many times that last post was wrong but heck in for a penny in for a pound.

    Yes I have had bedbugs, its an occupational hazzard when you work in the places I do. In fact the world most heavily documented case of bedbugs with about 150,000 live samples in a 1 bed apartment was one of my cases. I have had small issues at home although I am pretty sure it was due to my girlfriend at the time.

    I also have about 5,000 bedbugs in my research colony that needs feeding weekly. So yeah I know the pain even more than you do and I suffer for the sake of research and development and to put it bluntly it takes a little more than most are prepared to do to feed bedbugs by choice.

    Please also understand that your claims of helping the world are just 100% DejaMoo we have heard it all before from many people with oil and various "green" products. Have a look for FTC and CederCide industries and you will see what we mean. We have also had special beds, cinema seat covers, luggage sprays, covers for the beds, disks for the bed legs and hundreds of other flights of fancy. To date non of them has changed the world as you seem so hell bent on doing. The reality is that although you may be new to bedbugs but some of us have been working on this for over 10 years, long before many were even aware of the resurgence of bedbugs.

    The reason why you are rightly getting a hard time for this is the comments like spray the outlets with the circuit breaker off. Its just not safe to do so and the reality is that the bedbugs are highly unlikely to be in all your outlets anyway so you want to do something that is both dangerous and completely pointless at the same time.

    As for the use of chemicals only 1 in 20 of the jobs I do involves the use of chemicals of any form so you really should get your facts a little clearer before you accuse me of being addicted to the toxic path. I actually advocate a level of awareness and understanding of the issue which means that people if proactive before exposure to bedbugs only need to replace a small cost effective device from their bed.

    How had you the sense to stop and actually read what I have written I have said its too dangerous to just go at this one gung ho and that you have not understood how this is best used with regards bedbugs. The reality is that all the information int he public domain is about plants and to apply that information to your situation you need to understand bedbugs. Clearly you don't understand bedbugs so will most likely end up being on the tomb of the unknown soldier who shot himself in the foot them head while in such a rush to get into battle.

    Ever wondered why the US forces have one of the highest rates of killed by friendly fire in the world? well look no further than this attitude.

    Please stop and think about what you are trying to do and do it safely and not in a way that will encourage others to make the mistakes you are about it.

    Also stop to ask yourself what you think you are achieving here? I am here to make sure that people don't do stupid things and that where possible they remain safe, I ID and confirm samples and offer expert assistance and help where possible. You on the other hand seem only to be here to argue and tell us "I'm goiong in.. BAAAAANNNZZZZAAAAIIIIII!!!!" well respectfully what is holding you back.

    I have explained I will post cautions when you suggest something dangerous but clearly you don't want to listen to reason so just get on with what you feel you must and come back to update us all after 10 days or so when you have some results.

    David

  37. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 15:04:00
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    anothervictim - 53 minutes ago  » 
    First off, my "personal attack" that you deleted was a direct mirror of the personal attack that individual made on me. I find it interesting that u deleted my sentence about obivating cavils.. you're telling me that him calling my ideas "stupid" is on a PERSONAL ATTACK? .

    The rule I am following is that you can attack the ideas and not the person.

    If we could not attack ideas around here then what's the purpose of sharing them? Some ideas are untested and therefore bad. Until such time as they are known to be safe and effective for the application noted and method planned.

    Frankly, your ideas about experimenting on your home with an untested method are stupid not demonstrating a lot of wisdom. But I'm not going to allow anyone here to call you stupid. There's a difference.

    There was an insulting comment about you personally and it was deleted as noted above. I am being fair to both of you here.

    However, do not accuse me of removing anything but a personal attack from your post, secretly.

    I did not delete anything about "obviating cavils". That language is still in the post right before the one where I deleted something.

    I deleted only the sentence "David, I am sorry your mind is so xxx and xxx."

    I suggest in future that you read more carefully and follow the forum rules.

    This is the last time I am going to discuss moderation with you on this thread. And if you have issues with the way this forum is run, you contact me directly via the Contact Form and I note my attempts to contact you via Private Message have been ignored.

  38. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 15:11:10
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    Oh and if this Wikipedia post is to be believed, your cry of Banzai! is only reinforcing our ideas about your approach. Banzai attacks were, again, according to Wikipedia, suicide attacks, and not particularly efficient beyond killing the Japanese soldiers who undertook them.

  39. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 15:40:17
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    Hi,

    In the presence of a source of food bedbugs will not enter a dormant state only to come out later.

    As you have not taken the hints about being rude to people I am sure we will have to just leave you up to admin.

    David

  40. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 15:43:13
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    Another victim's last two responses attacking myself and David were deleted as he did not take heed of repeated warnings about being civil.

    The user is at least temporarily banned.

  41. bedbugsuptown

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 23:22:58
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    Absolutely freakin love your IDEA,
    *note: our undisputed fairest and most attuned to our need hits another homer, w/all bases loaded and with at the very least frustrated buggers trying to give. So you can all run home now and toast to good judgement from a righteous source. I'm not suckin up to nobugs. I just respect the heck outta her.

    at least temporarily banned--cut-em -loose bruce (u can google him) had his reasons, our host no doubt has hers; Whan I get to heaven's gate I hope St peter thinks like nobugs. I might not get into heaven, but I'm sure it'll be a short stay in Purgatory. For those in the not know, if your in purgatory it's just a matter of time till you get to heaven--that's guaranteed in the new covenant.

  42. bedbugsuptown

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 23:28:37
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    Forgive my over the Catholic posts. It's just that christmas is nearly upon us Alleliuia !

  43. theyareoutthere

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    Wed Dec 19 2012 23:31:36
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    I vote permanent ban. It's one thing to debate...against two experts..it's another thing to be ruder than what I read here (I guess the even ruder items were deleted).

    Based on what I read, I would have used Ignore, but I wasn't that interested in this thread until I saw Bedbug Uptown post.

    They
    Are
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    There
    = TAOT
  44. endless_nightmare

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    Thu Dec 20 2012 2:06:20
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    too bad about the ban, I'm really curious about this new stuff

    a more constructive perhaps respectful approach by anothervictim may have led to an interesting debate

    his statement about peeps not having bedbugs no beeing knowledgable about them is a bit silly.

    my Cancer doctor does not have cancer, yet he is the best person to treat me because of knowledge and years of experience, although a different thing I think the same principle applies to David (and other experts on this site also)

    Nobugsonme thanks for your input, but I have moved 2 times remember, each time I brought them with me, they haven't gone dowstairs yet in my new place, social services advanced the idea that perhaps I keep getting re-exposed at this physiotherapy center I go to, else than the hospitals, it's the only place I go too

    Also Doug is right on when I speak about an allergist, what I was told could happen is severe issues requiring to use Flovent and Ventolin, for the rest of your life...

    maybe the imvectin pill, if they ever release it will be better

  45. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Dec 20 2012 2:59:04
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    endless_nightmare wrote,

    Nobugsonme thanks for your input, but I have moved 2 times remember, each time I brought them with me, they haven't gone dowstairs yet in my new place, social services advanced the idea that perhaps I keep getting re-exposed at this physiotherapy center I go to, else than the hospitals, it's the only place I go too

    Sorry-- it's hard to keep all the details straight!

    But my point was that you said,

    I'm in a very similar situation as the OP but my infestation has been dragging for 14 months now, can't believe this will be my second New Years day with bed bugs

    I have too seen bed bugs crawl in various pyrethroid with absolutely no effects.

    My point was that even though pyrethroid-resistance is possible, this is not the same as bed bugs being resistant to all chemicals. Other chemical treatments are possible (even OTC), and of course non-chemical. If your PCO or you are using only pyrethroids then this would be a concern (if you have a resistant strain).

    If you've moved twice in 14 months, and have taken sufficient precautions not to move them, it does sound like re-exposure may be the cause, wherever it's coming from.

    I hope you're able to get to the bottom of it soon, endless, because it stinks that you have had them so long.

  46. Alberta has bugs

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    Thu Dec 20 2012 3:25:19
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    First of all, I am also very interested in this fungus and hope some good can come from it. Perhaps it expire's with time?

    However I am more interested in the story of David's girlfriend who may have been a source of bed bugs!

    Now that could be a good story!

    BTW, this thread was one of the most enjoyable reads I have had.....

  47. thebedbugresource

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    Fri Dec 21 2012 8:26:50
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    In 1939 the research showed that DDT was perfectly safe ... we sprayed it directly on people to delouse them. Today's modern science tells us a completely different story.

    Think about it ...

  48. bed-bugscouk

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    Fri Dec 21 2012 8:40:46
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    Not that the point needs much more reinforcement but:

    Thalidomide was introduced in the late 1950s as an anti-nausea and sedative drug used as a sleeping pill, and was quickly discovered to help pregnant woman with the effects of morning sickness. It was sold from 1957 until 1962, when it was withdrawn after being found to be a teratogen, which caused many different forms of birth defects.

    The negative effects of thalidomide led to the development of more structured drug regulations and control over drug use in today’s society.

    As thebedbugresource points out opinions change as we found out new information and develop a better understanding of why controls and balances are needed when doing things for the first time.

    No amount of "gung ho" attitude will ever turn the clocks back on a mistake once its been made so its best to try and not make them in the first place.

    David

  49. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Dec 21 2012 12:42:14
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    It's also a factor that when people use a treatment, they may be exposing others including attached neighbors, people who visit their home for any reason, etc. If you rent, you're messing with someone else's property. There are concerns related to this -- both ethical and probably legal (though I am not a lawyer).

    I'm pretty sure renter's insurance doesn't cover, "I sprayed a substance all over my home which was not approved for this purpose."

  50. theyareoutthere

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    Fri Dec 21 2012 22:25:58
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    On a serious note, when I got my cancer diagnosis, one of the questions asked was regarding a drug my mother took while pregnant with me...unusually high case of certain cancers in their daughters...Luckily, the science today catches one of the cancers "side-effects" early...

    She did the best she could with the information available at the time, but let's all be honest and admit that we don't know the real effects of something until 40 to 50 years later in many cases. Mom also worries that all the chemicals sprayed for roaches and DDT may have had an impact. I'm not a rocket scientist like the rest of the family, so I don't know. Ignorance is sometimes bliss.

    I haven't been through bugs, so I don't know the pain and I'll admit it. I'm very concerned about the pesticide resistenace issues. I don't know what the answers are...it makes me so sad to think about anybody having to deal with this...let alone seeing their child suffer...

  51. po2

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    Sat Dec 22 2012 4:05:05
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    Thanks for being brave and please keep us posted. It seems bed bugs are a big money making industry and there are many companies that are probably in no rush to see this product succeed. I hope more independent research is done quicker.

  52. DougSummersMS

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    Sat Dec 22 2012 23:41:05
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    There may be some truth in that idea, but there are plenty of researchers that are dedicated to finding solutions and the proverbial silver bullet.

    I don't believe that this fungus is the answer and question whether it will ever be approved for use in the home. The study that I cited earlier is the first and only study that has been published at this point... No one seems to have conducted any human safety studies that will be required before it can be labeled and approved by the EPA.

    For now, heat is a good choice for a method that is safe with a proven efficacy.

  53. Dave3624

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    Tue Jan 1 2013 22:25:27
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    Holy crap, I certainly didn’t intend in inciting an all out fight… I’m going to start a new thread to document my progress as well as the update here. This thread has gotten clogged up with too much extraneous crap.

    At any rate today (Jan 1st) was day 1. The delay was due to holiday travel.

    I used Botaniguard WP – the WP means wetable powder. According to the directions one pound will make 50 gallons of treatment liquid as proscribed for “other pests” however the spores will not survive in the water beyond 1 day so the liquid can’t be stored.

    After crunching the numbers a 1/4 cup of powder makes 2 gallons. It makes a brown solution that looks identical to when you dissolve a packet of yeast in a cup of water. The solution is odorless.

    Using a hand pump sprayer I sprayed the bed frame, slats, bed skirts, mattress edges, and along all baseboards and bedroom furniture. All surfaces were covered fairly thickly and cracks and gaps were saturated. There is a light tan film left on white painted furniture which wipes off easily.

    In addition I sprayed inside the couch and in all the gaps between cushions and inside the back gap. It’s a leather couch so access to the insides is difficult.

    No adverse reactions beyond my wife starting to sing Pet Shop Boys tunes a capella.

    According to the research the bed bugs die 5 days after application, I’ll let you know

  54. buggyinsocal

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 0:07:07
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    ::waves weakly at the oldtimers around here::

    Uh, hi guys.

    I didn't mean to disappear for quite so long. I was in a car accident (I'm fine now) and injured in a way that meant I could barely do the typing that I had to do for my day job, so I kept hoping I'd feel better enough to drop by and drop a comment in, but, alas, it took a long time to get back to the point at which recreational typing was possible. (The car accident also put a damper on my recreational video gaming, which is an entirely different kind of misery, but I digress.)

    At any rate, I thought to drop by when I saw a snake oil commercial on television for Fabriclean (The more things change . . . the more they stay the same, eh?), and I came upon this thread.

    Most of the really important stuff has been covered by those of you who've been around regularly, but I did want to address something that hasn't been mentioned directly in this thread.

    One of the reasons that newbites may not understand for oldtimers and scientific/field experts to be so strongly cautionary when it comes to trying new things is this:

    Those of us who've watched these debates over time are often acutely aware of something that newbies may not be as aware of:

    When someone is in the throes of a bed bug infestation, that person is miserable with a capital M. I vividly remember how desperate I was to get those horrible, blood sucking, vermin out of my house so that I could sleep soundly (ish) again. As someone with tendencies towards anxiety and with insomnia to begin with, it's possible that the bed bugs affected me psychologically more strongly than they affected others, but I see plenty of posts here from people who reacted the same way that I did.

    It's worth mentioning that most of the forum rules--both written and unwritten, and by unwritten in this case I'm focusing on the strong warnings issued by professionals and seasoned amateurs--against trying new techniques are issued strongly and repeatedly as they are precisely because we have a database of information that is often much broader and deeper than a newbie. We have entirely too much evidence of exactly how desperate many new suffers are, and, as a result, we're especially wary of the ways that a desperate, sleep-deprived newbite might come across a thread and make an unwise decision in that state because of the overwhelming stress, fear, anxiety, and general panic that comes with a bed bug infestation.

    The professionals here are here because they really feel a calling to educate the general public about the best methods for getting rid of bed bugs. I've never seen a bed bug professional on these boards--at least, not over the long haul--who was here just trying to drum up business. Instead, I see people who care about finding the most effective way to eliminate bed bugs as much as possible.

    The oldtimers here are here because they also feel a calling to do their best to educate people about the best ways to approach an actual infestation or avoiding one in the first place.

    If sometimes people in those categories seem to new folks like they're being needlessly cautionary or overly forceful when they try to warn newbites off something, I just want to reiterate that it's usually because they know how very, very deeply (and dangerously) wrong some peoples' desperate attempts to get rid of the bugs will be.

    Oh, and, um, hi to everyone I've missed for, what, like the last almost year.

  55. Alberta has bugs

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 3:23:50
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    Very well said, buggyinsocial.

    I also hang around after my infestation because I do not think that I will never run into them again and want to be armed with the best knowledge from the best people.

  56. GuineaPig4

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 3:26:12
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    I started using Mycotrol O today.

    I followed the instructions and sprayed the crap out of my place, wearing the proper safety gear, and taking precautions. I left for five hours and came back.

    The first thing I noticed was that it actually smelled fresher-- it usually smells somewhat musty in my bedroom and living room. There seemed to be a stillness in the air.

    As I type this, I am still getting bit, but it seems more subdued.

    I have had no symptoms of allergy to the mold. In fact -- I appear to be breathing easier.

    I think Beauveria Bassiana originated near Italy, I'm wondering if my heritage might make me tolerate it more than the norm.

    I'm only posting my observations for those who might be curious, I am certainly not advocating that anyone else try this. If I get super powers, though, I'm not telling.

    [Admin note: the methods this poster has noted using have not been tested in a field setting. The product is not approved for fighting bed bugs, and the method has not been tested outside of a lab setting. There's no evidence yet that it will be safe and effective when used in homes to treat bed bugs. There are, therefore, no "instructions" for doing this, except those people make up in their own heads. It is as such not a good idea to attempt to use this method until further formal research has been done and the product has been approved for this use and as has been noted above, application methods and dosage have been formulated. Any anecdotal stories from anonymous posters are not going to serve as good data about how this method works in a home environment, and anecdotal evidence about how safe and healthy users feel is not evidence that the method may not be harmful in time.]

  57. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 8:34:44
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    GuineaPig4 - 4 hours ago  » 
    I followed the instructions

    I take it that did not include the instruction "for outdoor and greenhouse use only"!

    Also

    It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its
    labeling.

    Also

    For use in controlling Whitefly, Aphids, Thrips, Psyllids, Mealybugs,
    Leafhoppers, Weevils, Plant Bugs, Borers and Leaf-feeding Insects in Field,
    Agronomic, Vegetable and Orchard Crops; Grasshoppers, Mormon Crickets,
    Locusts and Beetles in Rangeland, Improved Pastures and Agronomic Crops;
    Whitefly, Aphids, Thrips, Psyllids and Mealybugs in Vegetables and Ornamentals
    grown in Indoor/Outdoor Nursery, Greenhouse and Shadehouse.

    Today I will call the manufacturer and will ask them for a statement on what you have done to see what they have to say about it.

    If I cant make this any clearer:

    PLEASE DO NOT START EXPERIMENTING WITH THINGS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY TO BACK UP.

    It does not take too much searching to find other groups online where professionals have walked because of dubious advise and yes I will walk from this resource should it become a forum recommending that people do such stupid things.

    We have have 2 threads on the subject started because some people don't want to read or head the warning.

    David

  58. endless_nightmare

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 13:39:07
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    Please David,

    Don't let this silly thread get to you too much, I know it must be really anoying for a pro, but do not walk away from this forum you are way too appreciated, you are helping hundreds (if not thousands of people, who knows how many read this forum worldwide) everyday

    You are a very generous man with lots of knowledge helping others... the last thing we need if for you to walk away

  59. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 16:19:46
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    Added to GuineaPig's post:

    [Admin note: the methods this poster has noted using have not been tested in a field setting. The product is not approved for fighting bed bugs, and the method has not been tested outside of a lab setting. There's no evidence yet that it will be safe and effective when used in homes to treat bed bugs. There are, therefore, no "instructions" for doing this, except those people make up in their own heads. It is as such not a good idea to attempt to use this method until further formal research has been done and the product has been approved for this use and as has been noted above, application methods and dosage have been formulated. Any anecdotal stories from anonymous posters are not going to serve as good data about how this method works in a home environment, and anecdotal evidence about how safe and healthy users feel is not evidence that the method may not be harmful in time.]

    David, please do stick with us.

    I have no doubt the many voices of reason will prevail.

  60. mindoverbbs

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 19:41:42
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    Sorry for going OT but since I'm not the first, I assume it is forgivable.

    It is nice to see buggyinsocal back!

    Buggy, I appreciate your insights; your ability to frame, articulate, and synthesize multiple perspectives; and your outstanding written communication skills. Plus you're one of the best writers on this forum (along with Nobugs, Koebner, and Cilecto).

    Ok, I'm done. Let the madness resume...

  61. DougSummersMS

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 21:13:18
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    Buggy,
    Glad to hear that you are healing.
    Welcome back!

  62. theyareoutthere

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    Wed Jan 2 2013 21:47:48
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    Welcome back, Buggy! Your well written (and excellent thought process) were missed. Excellent point about why the professionals and real oldtimers (with BB experience like you) are concerned about posts which recommend off label, untested, or unsafe methods. There are enough fires from overusing 91% alcohol to point this out.

    You need to do a thread that says Buggyinsocal is back in the house!!!!

  63. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Jan 3 2013 0:47:40
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    Welcome back, ::buggyinsocal::!

  64. buggyinsocal

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    Thu Jan 3 2013 10:23:29
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    Aw, guys. It's nice to get such a warm welcome. Thanks.

  65. EffeCi

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    Thu Jan 3 2013 11:25:39
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    Buggy! It's very nice to see you here again!

  66. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Jan 3 2013 11:37:41
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    Hi buggyinsocal,

    Yes welcome back, I have to say that reading through your previous post on this thread gave me the hope that sticking around would be worthwhile.

    Sorry to hear about your accident, to share a quick story on how they can actually turn out for the better back in 2005 a few months after starting the company I found myself in a similar situation. I was in an accident that caused me to fall about 30 foot onto an uneven surface resulting in a lot of damage to my right leg making it impossible for me to walk, drive or do pretty much anything. The net effect was that I ended up employing someone as my driver and teaching them to treat for bedbugs through supervised working.

    It turned out to be the perfect way to train people and has been the model that we have followed ever since. Very much like the master craftsmen and his apprentice although thankfully it takes months rather than years and top up sessions become more like two old professionals swapping war stories from the comfort of a high backed Chesterfield library chair in the lounge of a old school English gentleman's club (think Philias Fog rather than Hooters).

    I actually think it would be a very telling study to profile those that help from a professional sense and those who decide to get educated and stick around to help others. Lets face it recruiting more of those could really help with the rising issues.

    David

  67. theyareoutthere

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    Thu Jan 3 2013 11:55:10
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    I wish I could find the threads where various posters, including me, spike about what a great communicator buggy is.. skilled writer combined with knowledge and empathy.

  68. Flamulina

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    Mon Mar 3 2014 16:52:28
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    It's here! My cubic lb of bassiana arrived priority mail - thanks Amazon! The first thing I noticed on its label is that it's intended for indoor/outdoor use. So, I am less bad than I thought.
    We vacuumed al the DE on the bed platforms and around our beds. I prepared a solution of 1/2 oz or 15 ml for 64 oz water (8 cups) and sprayed everywhere. I even discovered a small bb habitat for the first time and drenched it in the stuff.
    The product asks for the wearing of protective gear while spraying and I didn't abide by that. As a result, my nose is a bit itchi - not unlike the time I would use fogger sand come in to open the windows. I went outside, took a vitamin C 1000 and I am fine. The rest of the family felt nothing , not even a smell. We are no strangers to spores in the house - we did grow oyster mushroom on a log from a kit. That had a faint yeasty smell, none here.
    My daughter has a canine grade nose - she can actually smell the bb. But no smell from my spray.
    I had two small carpets which I wanted to throw away to reduce clutter because of the infestation. I had decided against it as I didn't want to spread the misery in the building. So, I used them now to saturate with the solution and placed them under the beds.
    Tonight I intend to show the enemy skin and no more cocoa butter on it either (preferred it to Vaseline and worked). I'll do my best to get them go through the spores if it costs me the night sleep. That's the plan. Will update as developments occur.

  69. bed-bugscouk

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    Mon Mar 3 2014 17:12:50
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    Hi,

    Again for your benefit and for those who may read this later the author of the paper that sparked interest in this type of biological control has confirmed the currently available strains do not work with bedbugs and they needed to reform ulster it to get it to work.

    David

  70. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Mar 3 2014 19:26:44
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    You said you don't want to spread the misery in your building? Are you in an apartment building?

  71. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Mar 3 2014 23:55:20
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    Flamulina,
    Since it's clear you do not want to start your own thread to tell your own story, now that you've posted your update here, I would ask you to please stay with this thread for future updates. So far, you have posted on four dormant threads. It is okay to keep one discussion on this topic going, but unfortunately, you keep posting to a new one.

    Reviving lots and lots of threads about the same topic and posting one message or a few on each is not a great way to communicate with us about your story. It means that your information and updates are spread all over the place. (Others have also described additional problems related to reviving dormant threads.)

    You can find where you've posted your messages on your profile. You can "favorite" this thread at the link above and then find your favorites in your profile. That way you know where to continue your updates.

    Thanks!

    Also, I do not agree with your experiement and would strongly caution others against trying this. That said, if you're going to do it, you might consider posting some photo evidence of your bed bugs.

  72. Flamulina

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    Tue Mar 4 2014 2:06:18
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    OK. This one thread it is.
    It' 2 AM and I am burning all over. maybe 60 bites all over - arms, legs, shoulders neck and back. This is the worst I ever had and the night is shot. I had used barely over one half of the 1/2 a gallon solution but now I'll apply the rest as payback. And this time I'll cover my nose while I spray. I'd like to do it right now, but this spray bottle is kinda noisy and I don't want to wake up everyone. It can wait till morning - the solution is good till 3 PM.
    I was planning to rough if up tonight, not even use the tea tree oil on the bites but I am back pedaling on that one. After all, the soap is not in any way a repellant, it just helps my body deal with the itch and heal faster. By morning only the big bites will show. Anyway, tonight shows how beneficial the cocoa butter on my skin was - I got 4 nights of sleep out of it. I used to think they were weakened from DE, but now I know that didn't make a dent. Anyway, tonight is a good baseline. We'll see how Bastianna will deal with them. My daughter says it's "gross" but I relish Mother Nature's creativity with this species. Again, if I am no longer at the top of the food chain, better Bastianna than nasty bb.

  73. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 4 2014 9:42:33
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    Flamulina,

    If you have enough bed bugs to get sixty bites in one night, please post some photos of your bed bugs, fecal stains and other evidence. That's a lot of bed bugs and visual evidence should be really obvious.

    Thank you.

  74. Flamulina

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    Tue Mar 4 2014 19:48:35
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    As soon as I find the next one, I'll do my best. So far, we only saw 4 individuals: a nymph, 2 live ones and a dead one - probably of old age as it was so much bigger than the rest. I flushed them all as this is our second infestation (in 13 years) so I didn't have any doubts. I should say I am the only one in the family (of 3) that gets that many. On the bright side, I heal really fast.

  75. Flamulina

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    Wed Mar 5 2014 2:37:44
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    Day 2
    It's 2:30 AM here and chances of sleep are slim. 30 new bites so far: 20 on my upper arms in the first 2 hours of sleep as I wore short sleeves and 10 in the next hour of sleep - hands and feet after the long sleeves. Pattern: breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, snack, snack, snack, snack etc.
    I am telling them: "Come my little pretties and make sure you traipse through all the spores I left for you. And take some home, for the family" yesterday morning I applied the rest of the half a gallon, saturating furniture, floors, sides of mattress . I wore a scarf on my mouth and nose and have glasses so no side effects on that one. So far the total is less than last night but the night is young. I'll get more even if I am awake. Besides last night was a bit unusual. I think they got hungry all those cocoa butter nights and once they smelled clear skin they had an orgy. Anyway, I am not taking the smaller number tonight as a Bastianna effect. I am however glad that so many have passed trough the spores. Sleepless, dog tired but still confident in the future.

  76. Flamulina

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    Wed Mar 5 2014 7:32:41
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    Update: after passing the 40 bites mark, I said "uncle!" and lathered the cocoa butter on which gave me 3 hours of sleep till morning. I declare cocoa butter the best remedy against bb so far. Of course, this totally invalidates the count. So, I'll just say that the purveyors of 100+ bites (in 2 days) have passed through the spores so far. I'll have a bit more energy tonight to see if there's any improvement.

  77. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 5 2014 15:52:11
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    This thread should be closed, here's why:

    1. This is an off label use of a product which has already been discussed extensively and is NOT recommended by any credible researcher or pest professional.

    2. This would be similar to someone doing the same thing but using a currently labeled outdoor insecticide containing a class of chemistry which is no longer labeled for indoor use. We would not condone such applications nor should we.

    3. This is NOT a controlled study being properly documented or conducted by a suitably qualified individual.

    4. This will not be a viable product offered for use in the professional or retail sector for the foreseeable future.

    Sorry, but this is how I see it ! paul b.

  78. Flamulina

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    Wed Mar 5 2014 18:53:37
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    I was told by the admin of the board to continue on this thread. I am complying with his request. Your objections have been noted. Also, as I wrote in my first posting the product is labeled for indoor/outdoor use.

  79. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 5 2014 18:58:52
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    Flamulina:

    1. The administrator is a she.
    2. Is the bottle labeled for the treatment of bedbugs.
    3. You said that you discovered a small bedbug habitat and drenched it. Was this the 4 bugs you found?

    Finally, Nobugs can delete this if she wishes,but did you read the warning?

    Nobugsonme - 1 year ago  » 
    Added to GuineaPig's post:
    [Admin note: the methods this poster has noted using have not been tested in a field setting. The product is not approved for fighting bed bugs, and the method has not been tested outside of a lab setting. There's no evidence yet that it will be safe and effective when used in homes to treat bed bugs. There are, therefore, no "instructions" for doing this, except those people make up in their own heads. It is as such not a good idea to attempt to use this method until further formal research has been done and the product has been approved for this use and as has been noted above, application methods and dosage have been formulated. Any anecdotal stories from anonymous posters are not going to serve as good data about how this method works in a home environment, and anecdotal evidence about how safe and healthy users feel is not evidence that the method may not be harmful in time.]
    .

  80. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 5 2014 19:30:43
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    Flamulina,

    I know you were driven by desperation to use this product, but others who know and understand how dangerous it is have been trying to warn you not to use it. However, you did, and now you are reporting the outcome on this blog.

    Yes, Nobugs told you to use this thread. Please take care of yourself and your family. I am worried about you and hope you are doing okay and have no harmful side effects. I hope you don't try to use it again.

    Can you post some pictures of the bugs you're finding?

  81. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Mar 5 2014 23:33:04
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    TAOT,
    Thanks for reiterating the warning. It can't be said enough.

    Engaging with Flamulina does not mean we are condoning her decision to experiment.

    Experts, it would be helpful if you would comment on the situation in terms of level of infestation: if Flamulina is getting as many as 60 bites a night (no one else in the home reacts to bed bug bites -- so others may be getting as many)but has only seen four bugs.

    Thanks in advance for your input!

  82. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 6 2014 0:19:24
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    At 60 bites a night ?

    Seriously?

    Considering the feed frequency of bed bugs and the number that would likely be present it would be easy to find bed bugs at an infested home where the person is being bitten sixty times each night.

    As such, the information posted seems incredible.

    pjb

  83. Flamulina

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    Thu Mar 6 2014 8:04:10
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    It's been another bed night for all of us. No relief so far.
    In answer to your comments, I thought I explained, the others in the family react worse than me to bugs. They have bites too, just less than me. Theirs last into the day, most of mine don't.

  84. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 6 2014 12:12:32
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    Hi,

    Bite level does not always correlate to activity level for a number of reasons, the most common are:

    • Some people flare up with old reactions when new ones occur - such as in the case of the person who for example has been previously exposed to bedbugs and wakes up in a hotel with 800 bites despite the fact that there are only 4 bedbugs in the room. Its a biological impossibility that they were bitten 800 times.
    • Some old bites do not fully heal - these can be subject to secondary factors either int he infested location or where the "bitten" encounters.

    Also having encountered genetically identical twins in the same room where one responded and the other did not was all the proof I needed that bite response is not a genetic based issue and as such family members will not have the same reactions.

    Without actual confirming signs there is always the danger that an issue is not related to the presence of bedbugs although it may have initially been triggered by them. I had a long conversation with someone about this yesterday and specifically the need to understand that issues have many reasons and that environmental issues can manifest themselves in exactly the same way as medical or psychological issues.

    Unlike any other area of diagnostic the answers only come through keeping the options open and assessing the facts as they present based on the evidence that is available. Yes this specifically means you exclude the obvious symptoms of skin responses from the analysis process as all they tell you is that there is something going on and nothing that indicates what it is.

    I personally would like to see less anecdotal information and more fact on things kind of thread because at times we are guilty of not always considering the first step which is to confirm before proceeding.

    David

  85. NewBlood

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 6 2014 15:02:49
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    Without actual confirming signs there is always the danger that an issue is not related to the presence of bedbugs although it may have initially been triggered by them.

    bed-bugscouk is 100% correct - and I can not stress this enough. You can not - should not - treat for bed bugs without actual confirming signs. I made this mistake many years ago as I treated my then apartment without any physical evidence of them (just bites) and even purchased a home to reduce my exposure to them.

    Turned out I never had them - I was allergic to carpet beetle larvae hairs! I still am to this day - and whenever I get one of the bite marks on my wrists all I need do is walk around my house looking around at the walls/ceiling to find a new little larvae doing its spider-man impression. Cute little guys. Ran me just about 2k in treatment costs and about 7k in closing costs on the new house back in 2009-2010. I can't stress enough how similar to bites the marks were - and they showed in in clusters, or lines occasionally. I was going insane trying to catch them, find them, and warded away family and friends during the 4 - 6 months I went through that chaos.

    Don't take the trip to crazy-town like I did: you'll just end up crazy. I know it's hard to remain calm when fighting these, or what you think are these bugs - but please don't use chemicals in ways or for purposes that they are not designed for, or environments they're not supposed to be used in.

    I would also add my voice to the others here that are saying "show me the bed bugs!", and recommend to new comers to the site to please please listen to the great advice you'll get here from PCO's, entomologists, and war-hardened bed bug fighting vets who want to help.

    - Newblood!

  86. Flamulina

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    Thu Mar 6 2014 16:13:28
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    Back to the drawing board. I just verified the concentrations again and it seems I mixed teaspoon with tablespoon. I was supposed to use 1/4 to 1 teaspoon per gallon. I used instead half a tablespoon per half a gallon. Obviously the solution was not workable . Will prepare a new half a gallon and remove the last traces of DE I discovered at the base of my bed. It was useless against the bb but it might dehydrated my spores.

  87. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Mar 6 2014 17:19:58
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    Hi,

    The spores take time to germinate and grow an as such time is needed to see if it will in fact work.

    You over application should of course be avoided but having sprayed once you need to leave time to allow it to work. It's spores not molten lava you have applied, they will always take longer than chemicals to take effect.

    However there is a risk through over application to the area. If you want to do this correctly you need to clear it away and start again otherwise you protocol would need to be mic it incorrectly and then a few days later apply again.

    In the meantime and while you clean please document any confirming signs you see and post them to the thread.

    David

  88. Flamulina

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    Fri Mar 7 2014 2:51:47
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    Thank you so much for the advice. I did just that. Vacuumed it all off, prepared the right solution, reapplied . I found some long sponge used to isolate windows. I saturated it and placed it along the base of the bed in addition to spraying the wood. I also put water in a large pan on the window to keep some humidity in the room. It's 3 AM here and I am having another bites night (gave up on counting). So, this would be Day 1 again.
    Also, I am myself puzzled at the lack of visual signs of the pests besides those 4 sightings. For over a month we didn't even see those. We inspected our beds and surrounding area over and over and found no droppings or shells. Could it be that they live next door and just dine here? If so, Bastianna would get them wherever they do live! I hope.

  89. Flamulina

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    Fri Mar 7 2014 6:40:27
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    Update: just caught one in my pajamas (did I mention i get most of my bites awake now? Could it be a sign they are slower? Anyway, it was full of blood when I squished it. I hope this photobucket link posts

  90. bed-bugscouk

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    Fri Mar 7 2014 9:18:04
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    Hi,

    The image is out of focus so its not 100% confirm but its most likely at this stage.

    Now what you have said about appearances is a significant point to raise and discuss.

    If you have what appears to be waves of activity then it can help determine the source.

    I would advise you check with the neighbours first and fore mostly and if they are clear think about possible links between places you occasionally go and when you start seeing bedbug activity.

    No its not likely that they live there and feed with you, it does not work that way.

    I appreciate that you are focused on the killing aspect but without working out the source you will remain stuck at the killing phase until the treatment starts to become a problem in itself.

    David

  91. Flamulina

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    Fri Mar 7 2014 12:09:34
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    I can't possibly ask this of the neighbors. I wish, but I can't. I can say that our life is quite self contained - no travel, no acquisitions - nothing out of the ordinary in the recent times that could explain the introduction of bb. Unless it's a library book or our clothing just from being outside...

  92. bed-bugscouk

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    Fri Mar 7 2014 12:42:58
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    Hi,

    I appreciate you feel you cant but if they are the source how will you ever resolve your issue without stopping the source?

    Sooner or later regardless of what methods you use the build up in the environment you live in will not be healthy for you and the lack of quality sleep will have a massive impact. To this end I speak from a lot of experience and to be blunt I know a few who send me cards on a regular basis to thank me for intervening before they needed to have their legs amputated.

    Yes it could be that you are getting exposed via the library, or through contact between clothes and infested areas such as public transport and regularly visited locations its why bedbug resolution comes from more than just treatment.

    There are newsletters and communication sheets in the FAQs and resources sections of this site and heck if you are worried about getting flack we even have newsletters that link to companies in different countries so they are truly public education and if you post it through 20 doors including your own who is to know who did it.

    You owe it to yourself and your family to get to the bottom of this issue and that may mean doing some tough things but don't assume communications means you need to stand on the street corner with a sandwich board.

    David

  93. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Mar 8 2014 3:17:58
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    Another sleepless night for all of us. This would be day 2 - again, so we wait.
    If I had to ask neighbors, it would be at least 3 of them - since I am at the end of the corridor. 3 potential disasters on a whim. In NYC, the secret of a peaceful life is to know as little as possible about your neighbors.

  94. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Mar 9 2014 1:53:36
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    Day 3
    I got 4 hours of sleep - without putting on cream or anything before they started biting. Progress? Not sure, but I feel more rested. Some progress in the other room as well. I turned the lights on for now.
    On edit: I caught one slowly walking on my bed (it was full of blood). Now I know I got to them!

  95. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Mar 9 2014 5:43:30
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    Update: it's 7 AM, 5 hours later, I eventually turned the lights off and...NO MORE BITES! Holly shit, thus is working! No more sleep either , I'll have to slowly reconstruct this, but I only got bitten that one time at 2 AM, about 8 times. I am guessing the bug I squished did all of it? Anyway, it's a huge difference from the nights before when they were relentless. Could it be that the over saturated solution I applied Monday did something after all? I am so happy I can cry! I know I am not completely done with this. There's one more application next week. But if the number of bites is dramatically lower I can start sleeping again! I might have totaled 10 hours of sleep last week. The levels of despair last night were unbelievable. I was feeling guilty for making that calculation mistake and adding 3 days of pure agony for my family. Also, my skin in the frequently bitten areas burns in the evening and early morning. I shall slowly come back from all that.
    I know I abandoned counting so let's just say I went from countless bites to 8. In one sitting. A glorious night! My legs have not been touched last night! Yay!!!!

  96. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Mar 10 2014 9:11:51
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    Day 4 ( or 7?)
    Somewhat more bites than last night, but I caught again on me a slow moving adult and a nymph, both full of blood. My family definitely slept better than me - I can't fill the gap between 2 and 5AM with sleep and not for lack of trying. But I totaled 7 h of sleep now so I am closer to catching up.
    Total score of dead or dying since Saturday: 4 adults, 2 nymphs
    Regarding my day count: Dave 3624 who started this posted once - in ths other thread that he used 1/8 cup per gallon i.e one ounce/ one tablespoon. It seems that's where I got my measurements when I started last Monday. Considering Dave's success, the spores did just fine at that concentration, so I might as well count my days since the start.
    I will however reapply a week after my second application .

  97. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 11 2014 7:50:17
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    day 8
    Less bites than last night, but still kept me awake between 11 and 4AM. Found another dying one on the bed 5 adults, 2 nymphs. I'd like to see more and hypomicized please (bearing the white spore signs). Preparing for a second application tomorrow or day after.

  98. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 11 2014 8:57:57
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    Hi,

    Having chatted with the Penn state researcher and attended her presentation the mode of death of bedbugs due to the fungal spores means you are not likley to see them out and walking around if this is actually what has killed them.

    The spore (allegedly) kill bedbugs by effectively taking them over as fungus factories in the same way that viruses do with cells. It therefore takes time for the spores to germinate and infect the bedbugs.

    Its one of the ways that we know claims of immediate overnight cures with this approach are not true because the life cycle of the fungus is simply not that fast.

    David

  99. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 12 2014 19:48:50
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    Thank you. This is encouraging because I only saw one dead one in two days and I was worried . Also, I saw two nymph shells which tells me that a new generation is still developing. That, plus the fact that it's been 7 days since the last application made today re-application day.
    I tore a bedsheet and made skirts for all beds. I saturated them with spores .
    Last time was pretty miserable. On the plus side, no more than a dozen bites and a sleeping gat of only 4 hours - from midnight to 4 AM, 6 hours of sleep in all. On the other hand they woke me up so many times I could cry. My skin has reached its fill and now every one bite brings up burns on all bitten areas. I am not looking forward to night time

  100. Flamulina

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 6:35:27
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    Day 10
    Yesssssss! My first full night sleep in ages! 9 hours of it!
    I did get a few bites, but my skin didn't lit up and I was able to go to sleep right away. The war is not over, but it enters a new phase, one in which I am operating at full capacity. I think I used barely a quart of Bastianna in this application.


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