Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed Bug Treatment

Dr. Dini Miller on Pesticide Resistance, Cirkil, DDVP, Vehicle Treatment & more

(20 posts)
  1. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 9:50:37
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Dr. Dina Miller is a well known urban entomologist who has published
    on pesticide resistance and cost effective bed bug treatments.

    Here is a link to a Webinar last April where she discusses these topics,
    and in particular the treatment of belongings using the "rag in the bag"
    protocol (Cirkil), DDVP strips in Closets, as well as Vehicle treatment
    with Vikane.

    The presentation is surprisingly down to earth and quite listenable.

    (scroll down page for Webinar)

    http://cirkil.com/proof-it-works

    NOTE: This was excerpted from a previous thread here:

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/question-about-nuvan-strips-on-books-and-electronics

  2. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 10:41:46
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Some takeaways (excerpted from another thread)
    Note: I have only listened to the presentation, not the Q&A's that followed.
    -------------
    1. New work is needed to make bed bug eradication more cost effective,
    especially because of resistance issue.

    2. Treating belongings is one way to help this process.

    3. She only uses two different pesticide protocols, "traditional" and "novel".
    Hopefully, in the future other combinations will be tried.

    4. There is no "head to head" between "rag in the bag" (Cirkil) and DDVP strips. The former is used in enclosed bags. The latter in sealed closets.

    5. Rag in the Bag (Cirkil) had 100% success rate. DDVP Strips did not do as well. But it would have been interesting to see if the tests were reversed, i.e. Cirkil in the closets and DDVP in enclosed bags.

    6. She theorizes that air circulation may have been a factor with the DDVP results and suggest the use of fans.

    7. She thinks vehicle infestation is an overlooked area and can be an important
    local source issue.

    8. While interesting and informative, the study seemed somewhat narrow,
    again only using certain pesticides, and again not testing too many variations of bag and closet treatment, nor did she touch upon heat treatment, or test alternatives to Vikane in vehicle treatment.

    9. She literally takes her work home and used her own closets for the DDVP tests!

    Richard

  3. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 15,666

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 12:32:57
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    I have seen her present this data twice and although far from one of my recommended information sources my take home was:

    • DVVP is not as reliable as some would have us believe.

    I would also recommend that before anyone uses "rag in the bag" that they be certain that they find the smell tolerable as getting rid of it after use may require the disposal of those assets. In short anyone who says "it has a mild smell" is telling a massive lie.

    Thankfully Dr Miller has become more accurate over the years I recall back in 2010 having to leave a presentation following the 3rd technical error in the first 15 minutes, two of them where the claim of female dispersal due to fear of mating and another that bedbugs are nocturnal. While these may nto seem that significant when you are teaching errors to a room of 500+ people who will go back to base to train others its a situation best avoided.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  4. robinsmom

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '14
    Posts: 1,151

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 15:35:44
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This may sound a little weird, and I don't mean to be off topic, but if Cirkil has a 100% success rate, might it be possible to put together a VERY large tent like plastic structure for a car (car would drive onto botton and the rest zip up), and at that point Cirkil be used to treat the car?

    Just wondering?

    I'm not an expert just a dumb struggling bed bugger like every body else.
  5. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,203

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:06:25
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I recall back in 2010 having to leave a presentation following the 3rd technical error in the first 15 minutes, two of them where the claim of female dispersal due to fear of mating and another that bedbugs are nocturnal.

    Hi David,

    I would caution against dismissing Dr. Miller's expertise so easily and without referencing sources.

    The 2014 webinar Richard linked above references the research (I think out of U of Florida) that suggested females dispersed to flee males but also Mike Siva-Jothy's research which did not observe such behavior.

    I also don't recall Miller classifying the Cirkil smell in the webinar as "mild." She says it's smelly in response to a question about this. (The Cirkil rep in the Q&A liked the smell, but that doesn't sound typical.) I think Miller is suggesting Cirkil/Proof "Rag in a Bag" (TM) may be a good option for decon, especially for those on a budget, and in the current absence of other economical options.

    Also, regarding bed bugs being nocturnal in this 1/14/2010 webinar, Miller notes that while bed bugs are primarily active during the night, "they're also active during the day if they're hungry." So it sounds like she had a pretty nuanced understanding of that aspect of behavior in January of the year in which you attended the presentation.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  6. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,203

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:09:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    robinsmom - 31 minutes ago  » 
    This may sound a little weird, and I don't mean to be off topic, but if Cirkil has a 100% success rate, might it be possible to put together a VERY large tent like plastic structure for a car (car would drive onto botton and the rest zip up), and at that point Cirkil be used to treat the car?
    Just wondering?

    Hi robinsmom,
    Fumigants are very tricky. This was another takeaway of the Webinar Richard posted above. The reason Miller suggests DDVP did not fare well in tests done in her home's closets is due to a lack of air circulation among the contents. (As I think Richard noted, she suggested adding a fan.)

    I am not an expert, but I expect this would make fumigating a car tricky also. Not that it can't be done, but that it's complicated. It's currently done with Vikane, of course, and it will be interesting to see if protocols are developed with Cirkil, DDVP or other products.

  7. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:20:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BBUK: I would also recommend that before anyone uses "rag in the bag" that they be certain that they find the smell tolerable as getting rid of it after use may require the disposal of those assets. In short anyone who says "it has a mild smell" is telling a massive lie.

    NB: also don't recall Miller classifying the Cirkil smell in the webinar as "mild."
    --------------
    Cirkil's own web site categories it as "strong", not "mild". While this is definitely a consideration in treating open spaces, I think it much less a consideration in treating for example electronics and other hard items in a contained space. Same with washables.

    NB: Also, regarding bed bugs being nocturnal in this 1/14/2010 webinar, Miller notes that while bed bugs are primarily active during the night, "they're also active during the day if they're hungry."
    ----------------
    Doesn't sound like she thinks bed bug are "nocturnal" in the way that was suggested.

    Richard

  8. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:25:50
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Robin: This may sound a little weird, and I don't mean to be off topic, but if Cirkil has a 100% success rate, might it be possible to put together a VERY large tent like plastic structure for a car (car would drive onto botton and the rest zip up), and at that point Cirkil be used to treat the car?
    -------------------------------------
    Not "weird" or off topic at all. I would have liked to have seen more testing on Cirkil for larger objects such as sofas, chairs, and as you suggest vehicles. Here, however, the odor issue may come into play more than with electronics and other hard items.

    NB: I am not an expert, but I expect (Cirkil) would make fumigating a car tricky also.
    ---------------------------
    As mentioned above, I would have liked to see more testing. Does Cirkil require as much ventilation as Dr. Miller thinks DDVP does? Maybe yes, maybe no. Needs to be tested. One logical test would be to reverse the testing she referenced in the Webinar. Test DDVP in a closed bag and Cirkil in a closet.

    Richard

  9. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 15,666

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:31:51
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Nobugs,

    Sorry, to be clear the theory that female bedbugs do not disperse to flee traumatic insemination comes from Richard Naylor's work in about 2009 prior to when I heard that presentation.

    The fact that bedbugs are not strictly nocturnal and are more accurately "obligate haematophages" comes from anyone who has observed enough bedbug behavior to know better. Its also fairly clear when you see the paper / article on bedbugs on buses in California as they adapted to commuter hours rather than hoping for light night bus riders.

    I have also seen enough speakers "flip flop" on opinion as if they were "chasing endorsements and funding" rather than actually doing pure or field research. Often either the flip or the flop is just not correct and as such I have a dim view on some peoples expertise because when you shine a light on it and look closely its not quite as good as you would hope.

    As such its not "dismissing easily" its dismissing based on their presented work over a 7 year period. I can however assure you if in the future the work quality improves I will credit that as and when it is due.

    I have gotten better at being able to be in the room while people are making errors (its like nails on a black board when its your "passion" they are strangling).

    With regards air flow and efficiency I think its an issue connected with the way the product is delivered. The limited surface area to volume ratio is good for slow release but not so good if you need to get an even dispersal through diffusion and larger molecules do not always behave that well under Brownian motion.

    David

  10. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 15,666

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:38:31
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Richard56 - 13 minutes ago  » 
    Doesn't sound like she thinks bed bug are "nocturnal" in the way that was suggested.
    Richard

    Now I never said that she currently thinks that. At the time of saying it I would hope she believed in what she was saying, otherwise why say it.

    Yes it appears someone has been sensible enough to upgrade the smell factor to "strong" but it was launched as mild. It appears so "mild" they have refunded people for having things that still smell "mild".

    Please smell it yourself and then comment, otherwise you are only going on other peoples word and interpretations. The advice to smell first is sound because its proved hard to get the smell out of some materials, most noted things that are porous.

    David

  11. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 16:57:35
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BBUK: Now I never said that she currently thinks that. At the time of saying it I would hope she believed in what she was saying, otherwise why say it.
    ----------------------------
    NB's reference, above, says that she was saying otherwise as early as January 14, 2010. So the plausible conclusion is not that she changed her mind as you imply above, but that she believed bed bugs were sometimes active during the day as early as Jan 14, 2010, which was the year you say you heard her say they were "nocturnal".

    Richard

  12. Richard56

    oldtimer
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 2,223

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 17:01:47
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BBUK: Please smell it yourself and then comment, otherwise you are only going on other peoples word and interpretations. The advice to smell first is sound because its proved hard to get the smell out of some materials, most noted things that are porous.
    -----------------
    I have given that advice before, and I am glad you are giving the same advice. It's much better advice than either to use it at any cost, or to avoid it because it stinks.

    What I'd like to add to that advice, is to smell it in the context of how it will be used. For example, if you are planning on treating electronics using "rag in bag" -- take an old, discarded electronic, treat it the required time, then open up the bag and let it air out for a suitable time. THEN smell it, and see if it's something you can live with.

    Richard

  13. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 15,666

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 17:10:50
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Richard,

    Yes it is feasible that she took the information on board and changed away from nocturnal and yes it was before 14th Jan of that year. I recall because it was another very cold Denver visit and then off to a colder NY.

    My point however is that had someone such as Lou been presenting the same bedbugs basics presentation I would not be able to correct any facts because he would have been correct from the start.

    Its akin to a conductor having a full orchestra apart from one amateur on the violin. The assembled audience may not hear it but its likley that the conductor will feel as if someone has placed a golf ball in their shoe because as I said an error can feel like nails on a board and what might pass others by becomes a blockage for others who are more OCD on an issue. There are certainly times I would rather I was more forgiving of errors but my clients find it a trait that is very useful when it comes to my field work.

    David

  14. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 18:16:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Some clarification:

    Above is posted:
    "I have also seen enough speakers "flip flop" on opinion as if they were "chasing endorsements and funding" rather than actually doing pure or field research. Often either the flip or the flop is just not correct and as such I have a dim view on some peoples expertise because when you shine a light on it and look closely its not quite as good as you would hope."

    The accusation/assumption that these researcher folks are "chasing endorsements" is simply not correct. The simple truth is, and any credible researcher will tell this is so, is that there are not a lot of commercially funded research dollars being spent these days as compared to years ago. As such, there's simply no endorsement dollars to be had and no one in the US Research community spends a smidgen of time worrying or caring about such things.

    Further, while I've seen researchers update their information and/or present newer or changed information, I don't view this as a politically or financially motivated "flip flop" because these folks are simply reporting on their data and observations from their work. If you sit and speak with these folks 100% of them will tel you that this is where the data falls and that's what they report.

    None of these folks are changing their position or reporting misleading information due to financial influence or for purposes of "chasing" research dollars.

    Above is stated this:
    "As such its not "dismissing easily" its dismissing based on their presented work over a 7 year period. I can however assure you if in the future the work quality improves I will credit that as and when it is due."

    The research folks being referred to here publish their research reports in what are called "refereed journals" where industry colleagues must review and approve the experimental design, how the work was conducted, the written report and the data results. These papers are then published in the ESA Journals after an approval process which is conducted by other qualified entomologists. The ESA Journals include: Entomological Society of America Journal of Economic Entomology, Journal of Agricultural Entomology and others.

    These research folks are reporting the results as they observe them based upon their work.

    It's one thing that some folks may agree or disagree with the reported results and observations however, to dismiss the presented information as being erroneous based upon what one witnesses at an end user trade show type presentation is another matter.

    Yikes !

    pjb

  15. Winston O. Buggy

    oldtimer
    Joined: May '07
    Posts: 1,484

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 18:30:26
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In one corner ......

  16. GhangisKong

    banned
    Joined: Mar '15
    Posts: 117

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 20:12:58
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hopefully someone will try Cirkil on a vehicle... and then test using CO2 monitors or some other such lure to see if any bed bugs that went into the car ever do come back out for a midnight snack.

  17. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,203

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 20:50:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Paul-- I sent you a PM.

  18. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,203

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 25 2015 20:50:42
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Ghangis, your lavender and R&D funding posts were deleted as off-topic in this thread, as was Richard's response. You can start a new thread if needed.

  19. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,203

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Mar 26 2015 1:24:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Subsequent responses from Ghangiskong and P Bello were off-topic and have been deleted. Sorry, but I have previously asked for the thread to remain on topic. If you want to venture into other areas, please start a new thread with a relevant title.

  20. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 15,666

    offline

    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Mar 27 2015 12:33:48
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Paul,

    Over the last 7 years there has been a clear cyclic pattern in what is talked about and endorsed. In summary it is often as follows:

    • Huge hype of anticipation as multiple researchers step up and put their name to a new product
    • Field data starts to come in and it does not look as good as the claims
    • New product appears and the riders of the bandwagon quickly jump to the next ship

    I am 99% certain I have heard you explain this in the past as endorsed research and explained how some researchers are associated with certain companies and/or products.

    It would serve the industry and consumers better if these "endorsed presentations" did not create the waves of hype that we see as when you take a multi-year view it becomes harder for people to actually trust what is being said because there will be a new shiny bus along soon which they will all be waving from.

    In some cases it has been clear to anyone who actually understands and observes bedbugs in the field that the product is unlikely to work thus bringing into question the objectivity of the speaker. The classic example of this would be the researcher who failed to disclose that his name was on the patent application of the product that he kept raving about and the simple fact that when others repeated his "latest research" their results were not as conclusive as the ones first published.

    My point is simple and clear, if people followed the same principles as the US Sunshine Act and gave full disclosures the issue would not be open to rumor and conjecture and would in fact be transparent. In the UK it is a requirement that any academic presenting any data confirms their sources of funding be that central government funded or commercial money. This creates a level of transparency which we do not see from the US and negates suspicion because of the transparency.

    I would also wish to clarify that this is not just my view as it was one that was expressed by many people at the 2015 Denver meeting where even before the meeting started 10 people expressed as concern that many of the presenters were simply acting as "mouth pieces" for their backers. Had you have attending this meeting you may have heard the opinion expressed but as you did not I would respectfully suggest that your opinion on that is hardly weighty.

    I would also point out that in such discussions it could be said that you have a vested interest in that status quo by virtue that you are in fact part of that "endorsement machine". I have heard your name quoted back on a number of occasions as an authority on what works and what does not and have had to correct many that it is more accurate to say that you speak highly of things on behalf of those who pay you to do so, something you confirmed with me many years ago.

    David


RSS feed for this topic


Reply

You must log in to post.

281,557 posts in 46,824 topics over 143 months by 20,659 of 21,556 members. Latest: DoIHaveBB, Dread Bugs, gbbedbug