Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Detection / Identification of bed bugs

DIY monitors?

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  1. ITortureBugs4Revenge

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 12 2014 3:11:29
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    I read a post on here a while back that mentioned how DIY monitors can be made by cutting out appropriately sized pieces of cardboard and sticking them on the bed with tape, and the cardboard which is corrugated on the inside provides a perfect harborage for bedbugs. Although the professional monitors are no doubt better the DIY method may work well enough so those with no money to spend can apply them with some success. Anyone else heard of this?

    .....I am NOT an expert.....

    Any advice i give here is based solely on my own personal experiences in dealing with bedbugs & other household vermin.
  2. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 12 2014 6:55:38
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    Paul B. talks about using cardboard in this thread:

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/best-affordable-bedbug-monitors

    I have passive monitors in my home, but if someone isn't able to buy the passive monitors, then this sounds like a suitable alternative.

    If you try the cardboard, let us know how it works for you.

  3. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 12 2014 7:53:33
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    Hi,

    While I cant deny I started with a similar idea I can assure you I did not stop there for very good reasons.

    There is a good blog article about simplicity and design which I have linked below. Some of the old timers will have noticed the occasional reference to Zen in my posts, it is in part as an homage to the design principles outlined in it:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2011/09/25/zen-and-the-art-of-simplicity-at-work/

    The shibumi here is to get all the essential criteria in the minimal number of steps because each of those small additions or design removals has a cumulative effective on the efficacy of the approach.

    Finally on a development time and costs versus return basis its a long play, it took me about two years to perfect which is why the design has not needed to change since launch. There is a small change planned in the next version but nothing that most users would even be able to easily spot as its connected with manufacturing ease rather than being essential to function.

    Hope that explains and it will be interesting to see if you results match what we have seen.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  4. ITortureBugs4Revenge

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 3:03:04
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    This is one of those situations where something i would really like to try concerning experimenting with bedbugs can't be done because i no longer have any bugs in my place (So awesome to say that)! , but because the bi-monthly canine inspections now done in my building found that a few tenants had bugs again the other day i might be able to convince one of those people to let me try that experiment in his/her apartment. Btw don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to convince people to go the DIY route instead of purchasing the obviously superior patented monitors, this is just something i thought about trying out of simple curiosity. And considering how so many bedbug victims (In this building anyway) are elderly and disabled, as well as there being immigrants living here who speak almost no English, have little money, and NO experience with using computers and the internet something like this sounds like a viable alternative for those people, if it indeed works as hoped.

  5. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 6:36:32
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    Above is posted:

    " . . . not attempting to convince people to go the DIY route instead of purchasing the obviously superior patented monitors, this is just something i thought about trying out of simple curiosity."

    In with folks that conduct bed bug research the following "self fashioned" monitors have successfully been found to contain bed bugs: folded paper, folded card stock, cardboard, paper type drink straws, cardboard roll tubes (i.e. from toilet paper or paper towels), cloth, wood into which "crevices" have been sawed.

    In the field working at bed bug infested locations we see that folks who have bed bugs can be innovative in their efforts to avoid bites and reduce their bed bug problem. Things observed under such conditions include:

    > Use of packing tape, duct tape and other tapes to catch and/or prevent bed bugs from climbing up furniture & beds.

    > Use of smooth surfaced items such as bowls and food containers as "blockers".

    > The perimeter of rooms lined with tape onto which numerous bed bugs are stuck.

    > Beds and furniture wrapped in various tarp materials.

    > And other such things which I simply don't remember right now.

    Overall, we find that bed bugs do quite nicely in our homes without the presence of any "overly fancy" manufactured device intended t catch them. It would appear the simpler the design combined with the location placed, the better the odds that bed bugs will, in fact, harbor in the location.

    Choice test data is somewhat surprising opposite these monitor devices because in many of these tests the "home made" devices out perform the manufactured devices. Currently such data is proprietary however, comparative performance data regarding bed bug monitor devices will become published soon enough such that we can put this discussion "to bed" so to speak.

    As such, should you find yourself in need, for whatever reason, to have bed bug monitor devices within your own home yet are not in the financial position to purchase same, there are numerous alternative options available to you which are effective and essentially free.

    Have a great bug free day ! paul b.

  6. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 7:40:34
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    P Bello - 55 minutes ago  » 

    In the field working at bed bug infested locations we see that folks who have bed bugs can be innovative in their efforts to avoid bites and reduce their bed bug problem.

    Overall, we find that bed bugs do quite nicely in our homes without the presence of any "overly fancy" manufactured device intended t catch them. It would appear the simpler the design combined with the location placed, the better the odds that bed bugs will, in fact, harbor in the location.
    .

    This is very interesting....and informative. Since bed bugs have existed long before our time (Aristotle mentioned them in 400BC), I often wonder how "inventive" our ancestors were in keeping bugs off of them as they slept. My Dad has told me stories of how they took care of bed bugs in the bunkhouse on their farm when the traveling workers would bring bugs with them back in the 30's & 40's. My grandmother was very "inventive" indeed....and a force to be reckoned with when it came to bed bugs.

    Currently such data is proprietary however, comparative performance data regarding bed bug monitor devices will become published soon enough such that we can put this discussion "to bed" so to speak.

    Looking forward to when this information can be shared with the public.

  7. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 8:15:59
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    Hi Butterfly,

    Hope you're having a good day!

    " I often wonder how "inventive" our ancestors were in keeping bugs off of them as they slept. My Dad has told me stories of how they took care of bed bugs in the bunkhouse on their farm when the traveling workers would bring bugs with them back in the 30's & 40's. My grandmother was very "inventive" indeed....and a force to be reckoned with when it came to bed bugs." (I don't know how to transpose your words the other way)

    I am so curious as to how our ancestors dealt with the bugs. What were some of your grandmother's methods? You know, our washers don't really get as hot as they should. Sometimes I think we need to get a huge pan and/or washtub to have boiling water for cleaning our clothes and linens. I was just thinking that I should get a fire pit for my back porch to use with a big pot! Or something!!

  8. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:13:35
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    Hi,

    The measure of inventiveness is really the patent.

    I doubt many will have had to do this yet but part of my application review was to state my case against the six objectors to my patents was to present tot he patent office why I had unique features and inventive steps. This process is known as the windsurfer test in that in order to get protection you must proved you have something novel.

    The long and the short of this is that during the meeting I had to refer back to many different granted patents and applications dating back as far as the 1865 EB Lake patent which is one of the first bedbug patents. I also used the literature reviews to go back further into some of the documented solutions including an odd organic device unique to Scandinavian fishing villages in the 1500's.

    However I have always concluded that the inventive step that made the biggest difference is the social reform and housing changes that are discussed in Critical Cities published in 2009 and in particular the section by Ben Campkin entitled the cleaning of slumland and the return of bedbugs. The social and healthcare reforms that came shortly after made the issue a common cause that people worked towards the eradication of.

    Sadly society has moved further and further away from some of those ideas in many countries and bedbugs may in fact just be an indicator species for much wider issues.

    Most of the patents are available online as PDF if you want to search them and brush up on "ye olde patent speak" to translate them into modern context.

    David

  9. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:16:30
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    Daylight - 36 minutes ago  » 
    I am so curious as to how our ancestors dealt with the bugs. What were some of your grandmother's methods? You know, our washers don't really get as hot as they should. Sometimes I think we need to get a huge pan and/or washtub to have boiling water for cleaning our clothes and linens. I was just thinking that I should get a fire pit for my back porch to use with a big pot! Or something!!

    Hi Daylight!! My day is going great. And, I hope yours is going great as well.

    Some of the things Granny did, would in this day and time, be considered "not safe" so I don't want to put those ideas "out there"....just in case.

    But, some of the things she did, I can mention. First thing she would do whenever a new worker came along is boil a huge cauldron of water out by the bunkhouse. ALL of the new workers possessions (which was never a lot....usually a knapsack with a change of clothes, bedroll, that type of stuff) would be put in the boiling water and given a good soak and then hung out to dry in the sunshine. The workers then would have to bathe in a "special" soap and Granny would treat them if she found any lice on them or in their hair. She did everything she could to make sure no problems came into the bunkhouse to begin with....her way of "bed bug/lice prevention".

    In the bunkhouse, the beds were made of wood from their land. Granny used newspaper to line the beds between the feather mattress and the wood. She said that it was easier to find the bugs on the newspaper than in the wooden beds (her way to detect) ~ how smart was my Granny!!). She used other "stuff" on the beds when needed, but again, because of the safety of that "stuff", I won't mention what she used. She did "inspect" the bunkhouse often and Dad said he remembered a time or two when she had the workers pour boiling water down the walls and over the wooden beds....but, he wasn't sure if that was because of bed bugs or what. Dad was born in 1936, so he was a kid during all this time.

    Dad said that they never let the workers into the family farmhouse, and with the steps she took to begin with, they very rarely had problems in the bunkhouse. But, when they did, Granny was on top of the problem....quickly.

  10. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:22:14
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    Hi David,

    I find the old methods and solutions very interesting (Scandinavian device in 1500's). Also, I would like to read the Critical Cities report. Are these accessible on the net?

    I liked your article on Zen and simplicity too. Thanks for sharing!

  11. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:33:22
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    Hey Butterfly,

    Thank you, too. I'm glad you're having a good day.

    Thanks for sharing! Your Granny sounds like a gem--not just any--a diamond! Yes, I think she would know how to conquer the devils in this day and age too!

    I like the newspaper idea-not bad! I think I know what "stuff" was. You can't beat boiling water, either. Yes, I might have to look for a big ole washtub!

  12. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:46:27
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    Hi Daylight,

    Yes the Scandinavian device was based on some odd type of wood / plant material that formed a harbourage that was inserted under the mattress and once a month would be taken out and thrown in the fire. It's odd because the idea sounded really familiar when I read about it.

    Critical Cities is a book ISBN: 978-0-9563539-0-0, I doubt its online but you may find some of the work of the author available, he used to be an academic studying urban design in London. The book actually has copies of the images from the 1930's Somers town slum clearance fires where the effigies on top of the fire were the pests of the day including our dear friend Cimex.

    Personally my favorite BB ephemera is the stuff connected with Tiffin & Sons circa 1650-1930's who were the inspiration behind what we do.

    I try and put as much of this online as I can in the bedbug museum which is part of the Bed Bug Beware project.

    David

  13. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 9:52:09
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    Thank you, Daylight. My Granny was a "firecracker" kind of lady and knew her way around a day of "rolling up her sleeves and getting to work", but she never failed to stop every work day at exactly 10am-11am to read her bible and pray. She was a fine example for me and all the girls around her.

    I think the take home idea is that back in those days, they used whatever was available to them. Nothing fancy....not a lot of money to spend. And, since they had limited resources, they learned the best and most efficient ways to use those resources. And a lot of the ideas had been passed down from grandmother to mother to daughter. My Granny dealt with bed bugs.....and she got rid of bed bugs with hard work and detected bed bugs with something that was readily available for her to use....simple newspaper.

    As Paul pointed out above, we don't all have to go out and buy monitors if we can not afford to do so. We just have to learn the ideas on how to use stuff that we already have and the most useful placement of such items for monitoring/detection. If someone can afford passive monitors and feels like that would give them the most peace of mind, then that's great, but if someone can't afford to buy the monitors, it's nice to know that alternative ways are available for use as well.

  14. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 10:15:12
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    Thanks for sharing, Butterfly and David. I want to research some of those fascinating old techniques and evolving practices in my spare time.

    Passing good information and "cures" down from generation to generation is priceless. What your Granny did, Butterfly, and what the old companies and cultures did, David, is so interesting.. I've always loved history and learning about how people lived and dealt with problems they encountered. It is great when we can see how they reacted and used their resources (mainly their brains) so well.

  15. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 10:33:38
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    Hi Daylight,

    Yes and no. The reason why I say no is that some of the old solutions were incredibly dangerous and would not pass current practice.

    Therefore you have to filter what was good and make sure you don't bring the bad along for the ride. Two prime examples are, 1/ The calls for DDT to come back 2/ the fact that interception devices have been simplified from the 1865 design.

    Some of what has been done in the past and often the not too distant past makes you wonder why action was not taken sooner. The story of children running behind trucks spewing plumes of DDT mist always springs to mind.

    David

  16. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 11:48:55
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    bed-bugscouk - 1 hour ago  » 
    Yes and no. The reason why I say no is that some of the old solutions were incredibly dangerous and would not pass current practice.
    Therefore you have to filter what was good and make sure you don't bring the bad along for the ride.

    Hi David,

    I agree. And it is why I didn't include some of the things my Granny did back in those days because I didn't want someone to read them and go, "hey, I can buy that stuff and use it myself"......no, no, no....not a good idea at all....just like DDT wasn't/isn't a good idea....at all. The reason I did share my Granny's story was 1) because even back then, she understood the importance of prevention, detection, and quick action. Her boiling water was our PactTite of today (Paul has a DIY for that as well!) and her newspapers were our montiors of today; and 2) because even without our modern day inventions, she was able to prevent and rid bed bugs with what she had available.

    I feel it's important for people to have options on how to prevent, monitor and rid their homes of bed bugs. I understand that importance because when I first found out about bed bugs I wanted to use ClimbUps....only problem....the posts on my bed are 6 in x 6 in....and the ClimbUps of that time weren't big enough. In my mind, from all my reading, I thought I had to use the ClimbUps to be successful. I didn't realize the DIY methods available. And thanks to Paul, I now know those methods. I feel like a lot of people want to monitor, but can't afford to buy the passive monitors. Hopefully, they will read a thread such as this one and realize they do have options.

  17. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 12:26:10
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    Hi,

    I agree with you about options but not about some of the DIY solutions we have seen in the past and sadly still continue to see.

    The reality is that what often appears to be a simple idea such as a PackTite has actually undertaken extensive testing before it gets launched to make sure it works reliably time after time. Not all manufacturers do this, I have actually published a report on a hair dryer based device which failed, the failure was due to the manufacturers not understanding that air temperature and asset core temperature are different values and only one gets you are guaranteed result.

    Its also true that the supplier of the hair dryer in that situation went to great lengths to contact me to stress that running a hair dyer for more than a few minutes is not a good idea to the point that the phrase was "please stop doing that immediately, we are concerned for your health and safety".

    I am all for things that people can do themselves and putting good quality information clearly into the public domain, heck I think the only site that beats me for content is this one.

    But great example with the climb-ups, I have tried to explain that point time after time but it never sinks in at speed. There are a growing number of people who don't follow the "norm" but its still the minority. If only we could get people to understand that cost effective encasement will do the same job then we could really be doing some good and saving people money. I had a case the other day where fixing the problem was only about $175 whereas they had already been charged $400 for poor service and another $300 on top for "name brand" encasements. They were understandably upset.

    My only fear is that people will assume that being clear on grannies remedy might make they complacent to an undetected issue. There is frankly a reason why we selected one from 50 different grades of filler material for the monitor. Some of them had an undetectable solvent residue which actually made bedbugs repel.

    Its a lot more complex than it may initially appear hence my link to the zen design article.

    David

  18. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 12:41:37
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    This is such a good place to be able to express/explore/discuss. Nobugsonme had such a good idea when she started the forum and continues to carry it out magnificently. Thanks so much, Nobugs!!

    I'm in agreement with David and Butterfly about using appropriate and safe methods. Often, we take what others have done and tweak it to work in our current setting/situation. We use our own knowledge/experience base in conjunction with those of others that have been effective in the past. Sometimes no change is necessary, but usually it is, for various reasons. It's fun to compare old and new techniques and the reasons behind the changes. Most of the time when I say "the good old times," I think to myself that maybe they really weren't better than today.

    From a personal and an intellectual perspective, I'm always open for ideas that are useful and effective in battling any issue of interest or relevance. In this case, the issue is mainly bed bugs and how to understand/ deal with /defeat/eradicate them.

    Appreciate all the input. It is a learning experience.

  19. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 12:56:10
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    I am applauding the heroes/heroines of the past who used their wits and resources to fight the battle of their day and times. Now we must forge ahead to meet the challenges of the new day. This is a very different world today, so we do not simply rely on remedies of the past, unless we prove them effective and appropriate for our lives and society. Like I said, it is just fun and interesting for me to learn about how humans survived in different times.

    The zen article points out the magnitude of the simplistic approach--much more difficult than is initially assumed. I have respect for those who fine tune and work out a product to do exactly what it's intended to do.

  20. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 13:01:04
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    Hi Daylight,

    If you fancy a challenge read up on heat transfer coefficient and thermodynamics because in terms of heat that's what its all about. As the trek quote goes "can't defy the laws of physics". I had to go all the way back 20 years to my high school physics classes to wrap my head around those equations but once you understand W and K and think about the range of macro and micro climates you are working with you start to see where the weak points are.

    Its why I have such high hopes for google glass type technology because that could be used to program and detect the variables that result in treatment failures. To that end anyone out there willing to sponsor me to the tune of an augmented reality system please get in touch.

    David

  21. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 13:41:46
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    I guess I should have been clear that by giving the examples that I did above, I am not saying, "Hey, just use boiling water and newspaper." That is far from what I meant. I am not a pro, nor do I see what takes place on a daily basis out in the field. So, to all the "everyday" folks, go with what is suggested by those who do see what takes place in the field and what they see that is working in the field.

    Just saying that in case someone reads what I wrote & has a, "Well, I read it on the BBF" moment. Let's not do that, folks....lol.

  22. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 14:15:32
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    Hi Butterfly1972,

    Actually I would have agreed with the hot water and elbow grease before other suggestions. There are some great writings on bedbugs connected with nurses and their duties in the pre 1950's. The soap and hot water was probably and more accurately a good contact killer and certainly a cost effective one compared to something alcohol based. Its also true that "medicated soaps" were more common in those days and these would have had a better killing power than say a modern hypo allergenic soap.

    My fear is that people go "pennie wise and pound foolish" on this one. Making the savings where you can which often means the more costly items where alternatives are feasible means you can worry less with the smaller costing items and still end up with a net saving. In the example above education could have saved $500 but they were initially told you must have the additional tools to make the process work.

    I could equally buy 3 - 6 basic steamers for every one advanced steamer but they would wear out faster and would take longer to get the same job done. Its about sensible economic steps and what the Japanese would call six sigma, a process whereby the finished product is re-engineered to the lowest costs for the same functionality. Such studies on complex multi part machines such as a watch can cost tens of thousands to conduct but may make lifetime production savings in the millions.

    Its a complex area when you start thinking about it and yes we always have to be conscious of the fact that more people read and lurk than who actually post.

    David

  23. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 15:47:21
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    That's all very interesting, David. I figured the hot water would be ok, but wasn't sure about the newspaper.....again, just what she had available at the time. My main point was to make sure that everyone knew to take what I wrote with a grain of salt.

    And you're right about being conscious of all the lurkers who read the site. It's always easy to forget just how many people read this each day. And I tend to "over share"....kind of my downfall in life...lol.

    That should be my signature.....
    "Not a bed bug pro/expert. But, I do have great knowledge in other areas that I tend to over share on"....

  24. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:09:36
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    Butterfly,

    Hey, don't beat yourself up over that. You were just answering my question or telling me what I wanted to know. So blame me for any oversharing. You were not advising anyone to use any of those remedies. I will be more careful. I should have PM'ed to you to avoid any worry.

    David,

    I'm not sure what those terms are you suggested I research, but I'll look into them sometime. I did distinguish between convection and conductive heat a few months ago when wondering how they differ. I'm not a science major although I appreciate it more the older I get. (I majored in social sciences and education.)

    Glass type technology sounds intriguing too, but again, I'm not a scientist or even close.
    Thanks for the tips. I'll keep you posted on my findings.

  25. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:26:07
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    Daylight - 11 minutes ago  » 
    I will be more careful. I should have PM'ed to you to avoid any worry.

    Oh, no, don't worry about what you ask on here.....that's how we all learn. Honestly, don't think anything of it. I just have a tendency to be long winded in my responses (and get OT with things that aren't necessarily "PG"). Not that it happened in this thread, but in others, and I always forget just how many "eyes" see what is written.

  26. loubugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:29:41
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    You have to watch bed bugs and they'll tell you what they like the best.
    Folded paper -- the creases -- are very inviting. Fan-folded paper is good to use for potential harborage zones. Corrugated cardboard, even large openings (adults fit better), also good. Folded cloth, such as washcloths or nonfabric, and of pastel color will contrast with bodies of all instar nymphs and adults as well as eggs. If you look at towels and see the tufted (water absorbent) area and also the very flat areas that form demarcations, you will see they have a preference for the flat areas. Testing zippers I've seen them test the teeth & slots by poking the proboscis in and stay on the zipper fabric material and not venture over the mattress encasement material. Give them fabrics with more places in which to investigate and they will stay longer.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  27. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:34:03
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    Butterfly,

    I can be the same way. I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You handle the issues and topics very nicely. Keep up the good work!

  28. Daylight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:37:39
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    Lou,

    Thanks for the tips! You are a wealth of information that is very helpful

    I'll check my texture fabrics and bedding very carefully!

  29. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:42:45
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    Thank you, Lou!! Very interesting....as always.

  30. Butterfly1972

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Mar 13 2014 16:44:50
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    Daylight - 8 minutes ago  » 
    You handle the issues and topics very nicely. Keep up the good work!

    Thank you!! And I've seen your posts to others. You are definitely holding your own out there and being very kind and helpful. Sooo, you keep up the good work as well!!

  31. ITortureBugs4Revenge

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Mar 14 2014 2:48:05
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    Interesting what Lou said about giving them different textured fabrics for them to investigate and see what they prefer the most. To me it sounds similar to how nowadays zoos give their animals what zoologists call "enrichment", which is done by improving the animals enclosures and the like which supposedly stimulates the animals minds and makes them live longer, happier lives...but in the case of bedbugs we want to introduce some enrichment into their lives so we can kill even more of them !

  32. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Mar 14 2014 12:27:13
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    Daylight - 23 hours ago  » 
    This is such a good place to be able to express/explore/discuss. Nobugsonme had such a good idea when she started the forum and continues to carry it out magnificently. Thanks so much, Nobugs!!

    You're welcome, Daylight.
    I firmly believe it's the participants that make the site work so thank you all!

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."

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