Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Detection / Identification of bed bugs

DE Examples Please

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  1. acham1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 12:22:47
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    Hi All,

    I'm trying out diatomaceous earth in my studio, applied with the pest pistol. I've read that it should be applied such that I can barely see it, but the problem is I'm still not sure how much I should be applying. Could someone please post pictures of a terrible DE application, a bad one, an ok one, a good one, etc, so we can get a spectrum of examples to compare?

    Thanks!

    Also, I found a bed bug on its back on the floor today. It appears stiff and dead. Is this what DE-killed bed bugs should look like? The landlord had this place sprayed too last week (with what? I'm not sure); are there sprays that give results appearing the same as DE?

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 13:04:53
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    Hi,

    If you can see it then its too much.

    The problem is that to apply it correctly you must do so at a level where you cant see or record it being applied, it looks like you have / are applying nothing.

    Bad applications look like a fight between the cartels has just kicked off in the room or anything that looks like "moats" of powder.

    There is no reliable way to look at a bedbug and say what killed it aside from occasions where certain insecticides have been used as some do create unique death appearance (some carbamates turn bedbugs black and I think Temprid can result in "bloating") but its not really the best way to approach the problem.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  3. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 13:55:40
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    Step 1: Throw away your DE. Link 1 and Link 2 will explain why.

    Step 2: Go to domyownpestcontrol.com and buy $11.66 4oz bottle of CimeXa. This Link explains why and this link will take you directly to product screen.

    Step 3: While you're there, scroll down to look at this video where someone demonstrates proper way to apply dust using two types of applicators. Either will work, there are pros and cons to each. Keep in mind that CimeXa is probably the least toxic of all dusts so don't become overly concerned if some blows out when you apply it. Wear goggles and optionally a dust mask - a respirator mask is not required. I would advise against using the puffer bottle in which the product is shipped.http://www.naden.de/blog/bbvideo-bbpress-video-plugin -->

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Widget

    Step 4: IMHO, there are 2 critical areas to apply the CimeXa: (1) along the baseboards (or wall/floor intersection) throughout the entire residence (2) place a ring on the floor around each bed leg or, alternatively, one large ring around the entire bed.

  4. BigDummy

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 14:43:06
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    Bed bugs are little fellas; what looks like a tiny line of powder to you, me or Len Bias looks like a huge mound to a bed bug. The finest amount applied is not something that would really photograph well. Think more along the lines that you're tricking them into walking over something harmful and not so much that you're forcing them to travel through an obstacle so that they can feed.

  5. Canuck

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 16:44:56
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    From what I have read on CimeXa application it is not intended for open areas; even bedbugsupply states: "Don’t apply any type of insecticide powder, including CimeXa, into open areas." I would use a fair bit of restraint in following RC's directions as stated: "(2) place a ring on the floor around each bed leg or, alternatively, one large ring around the entire bed."

    Upon further checking of the product's label it states: "Electrical switch plate covers can be removed to allow access to voids, but dust shouldn’t be applied directly in electrical boxes"; which is contrary to the demonstration in the video linked above by RC.

    Sheree Swindle / certified K9-assisted bed bug inspector
  6. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 17:59:42
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    Canuck and BBUK are experts. BD is BD.

    They
    Are
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    = TAOT
  7. acham1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 18:01:01
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    Thanks all; I've already laid down some DE around the apartment; if I were to apply cimexa, could I do so on top of the existing DE (thereby keeping both present) or should I have to wipe down the DE and apply cimexa on a barer substrate?

  8. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 18:48:54
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    Canuck and BBUK are experts. BD is BD.

    So I'll take this as a swipe at me. You realize your "expert" BBUK just told someone not to worry about pool grade DE? Now do you want me to again itemize all the things he's been wrong about? And your precious BD just made a joke about an athlete who died very young from cardiac arrest induced by cocaine overdose. What's next? Holocaust jokes? Maybe it's time you back off unless you have something substantive to add. Here's a direct quote from someone who PMed me referring to your group: "All of them have no minds of their own. Bunch of ass kissers. This is like bed bug forums for high schoolers."

    @acham1 Sorry there's an unfortunate history here but you seem smart enough to know who to trust. I'm preparing a response to Canuck's reasonable concern about safety which should be ready in about 15 minutes. For now, here's the answer to one of her concerns:

    Upon further checking of the product's label it states: "Electrical switch plate covers can be removed to allow access to voids, but dust shouldn’t be applied directly in electrical boxes"; which is contrary to the demonstration in the video linked above by RC.

    He's shooting the dust into the void in that video. Take a closer look.

  9. BigDummy

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 19:34:36
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    acham, best to start fresh whenever possible.

    And elsewhere; Godwin's Law, so soon?

  10. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 20:07:06
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    Since you're in a studio apartment, there's really no risk of infestation spreading to other rooms. Therefore, since you've already applied much? of it, you might want to give DE a chance. The DE might work but it's trickier to apply: put too little and the bugs won't die, put too much and the bugs will avoid it. CimeXa, on the other hand, requires very little to be effective and it's much harder to go wrong. I wouldn't mix the two.

    Regarding Canuck's safety concern:
    I never take aspirin, Advil or other OTC medication. I only take antibiotics in very special situations. My landlord's PCO is pesticides-only so I decided to first try a chemical-free DIY approach. I chose CimeXa based on that Jeff White video I linked to and some research I did on its safety.

    Not all dusts are created equal in terms of safety. Some contain pyrethroids, others contain crystalline silica, some contain both. CimeXa is 100% amorphous (non-crystalline) silica gel. EPA placed it in the lowest toxicity category (Hazard Tier 3). It is what is often referred to as a "nuisance dust" which does not produce disease or harmful effects when exposures are kept under reasonable control. They're basically akin to household dust. The only thing which showed up in the "acute tox" tests was some eye irritation at high application.

    So, for example, you generally wouldn't want to lay even the safest dust wall-to-wall in a room. But we know that is what people often do when applying DE. That's why it's tough to obtain labeling for any kind of dust to include exposed areas. But that doesn't mean one cannot apply it selectively in exposed areas. For example, the Univ of Kentucky researchers in that link I gave you even talked about potentially using CimeXa in some exposed areas to prevent infestations:

    Depending upon risk of infestation, proactive application also might be warranted under and around beds, sofas and recliners, along common hallways/corridors, and beneath unit entry doors

    A few tips concerning CimeXa: (1) maybe leave the apartment for a few hours after applying to give time for the dust to settle; (2) minimize air currents which could kick up dust (AC, open windows on windy day); (3) avoid mixing water to create spray because the efficacy is greatly diminished per UK study; (4) avoid exposure to dampness which will make it less effective.

  11. acham1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 20:14:44
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    I really like this forum; I think you're all just fantastic. Landlord's not doing that great of a job when it comes to keeping me informed, but when I'm on this site (and I'm on here for obscene amounts of time, foregoing studying for exams and homework) I feel like I'm not dealing with this alone. Thanks for all your input, expert or not; I hope you all can eventually get along too; thanks!

  12. Canuck

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 21:05:01
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    acham1, I agree this site provides a of sense of community - something not easily achieved in this electronic virtual world where communication is limited to the typed word (and the occasional emoticon.

    RC, at your request I took another look at the video; even switched to the full screen version direct from http://www.naden.de/blog/bbvideo-bbpress-video-plugin -->

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Widget

    The only puff from the hand duster applied to a wall void is the last one at 47 seconds, when the use of a screwdriver is used to open an access point between the electrical box and the sheetrock (drywall for fellow Canucks). The prior two puffs, are applied to the interior of the electrical box, which is contrary to the label for CimeXa.

    For these first two puffs, the narrator's verbage does not identify the electrical box interior, rather he references 'the wall cubby':

    Now when you're inside you want to do a light amount of dust so you want to turn the Bellow Duster upside down, but you're just going to stick it right here at the front of it and just dust in the wall cubby.

    Followed by:

    To access the wall void, you want to have the duster go in between the box and the sheetrock. You can see right here most of the time you will just need the help of a screwdriver to pull the box away from the sheetrock enough for the duster to fit in between it. Once the duster is in between it, you can just do a couple dusts inside the wall void.

    I am a stickler on this point because the visual message (the video) carries more power than verbage and the image provided by the video, in reference to CimeXa, is at the least, misleading and at the most, unlawful. Which is an interesting point for a Canadian to drive home, as we are nowhere near as litigious as our southern neighbours.

  13. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Oct 22 2014 22:07:03
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    @Canuck Interesting! OK I re-read the CimeXa directions and maybe there are different ways to interpret it. Perhaps it is saying don't shoot dust into box through the sides or surface of the plate but rather remove plate and then treat any voids. I heard him say "void" not "cubby" in the place you mentioned when he dusts in the empty part of box where there are no electronics. Still, that raises the possibility some dust could blow up into the electronics. On the other hand, your interpretation is valid as well (maybe more so because of sequence of statements on instructions).

    Maybe you could call Rockwell Labs 816-283-3167 or domyownpestcontrol.com for clarification. I never dusted in voids because I figured BBs would eventually have to cross the Cimexa I placed along the baseboards throughout the perimeter of apartment. I did, however, worry they might just hang out in the voids and never cross the barrier to feed. I considered asking PCO (landlord pays in NYC) to drill into walls and shoot CimeXa in but never followed through thinking it would be too bizarre a request to only use them for that purpose.

  14. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 0:04:17
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    Raising Cain,
    You should realize that responding to someone's questions about how to apply DE with a post pushing CimeXa is a highjacking move. Nonetheless, the OP seems interested, so that's not a serious issue in itself as it would sometimes be.

    TAOT's comment is coming from a good place and highlights the fact that there's an ongoing concern with who is giving pesticide application advice. Canuck's comments highlight how having experts and professionals here is a good thing.

    That's not to discount any valid knowledge you have acquired through your reading and experience. I just wish you would be a little more civil. It's one of the forum rules, after all.

    Please note, re:

    "Here's a direct quote from someone who PMed me referring to your group: 'All of them have no minds of their own. Bunch of ass kissers. This is like bed bug forums for high schoolers.'"

    Reposting others' private message comments which insult other users?

    Sounds like a high school move to me. The insulting others part is also against forum rules. Please cut that out.

    Finally, a note for others that if you are shopping for Cimexa or other products, please consider shopping with the same companies (Bed Bug Supply, Do My Own Pest Control, etc.) via our links in the Useful Tools page-- if you do this it helps support the site at no additional cost to you. There are direct links to Cimexa, DE and other dusts in the dusts section.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  15. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 2:06:59
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    RC,

    I have not recommended anyone use pool grade DE, I would never do that.

    I have explained that you and I are here for different reasons.

    I am here to help people.

    You seem to be here to argue, belittle people and worst of all to promote a product even when that means incorrect application of the product. Your first post proves that and your aggressive stance towards me in particular is not in keeping with aims of this forum.

    I can only hope you see the damage you are doing and thus stop.

    David

  16. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 13:18:06
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    @David Cain This is what you wrote in THIS THREAD:

    David Cain wrote: Silicosis tends to be more associated with the crystaline silica than the amorphous silica which is DE, further reading on the subject will explain...I would be more concerned for the level of dust and thus dust pneumonia before silicosis but if you follow the advice above and then tackle the removal of the excess DE it will help.

    You obviously didn't realize there are different types of DE, some containing high crystalline content. The OP made it very clear s/he was talking about POOL GRADE DE. At least some progress has been made because you now understand the difference between crystalline and non-crystalline silica in regards to safety and silicosis. That thread not so long ago where I educated you on this subject has paid dividends. Fortunately, in this most recent instance, I was able to alert the OP to the potential gravity of the situation and direct him/her to the appropriate resources. But hey, maybe TAOT's right - maybe s/he should have listened to you because you're a "science advisor" and "expert".

    David Cain wrote: I have explained that you and I are here for different reasons. I am here to help people.

    So I was wrong to post on that thread and correct you? If I hadn't, are we really sure someone else would have stepped in to help that person? I did wait a while and nobody posted. Perhaps some of the regulars here viewed it as better not to harm your reputation than to help someone with a "long-term respiratory problem" who's living with an "aging relative" in a residence strewn with pool grade DE?

    And why did I post in this thread? Because the latest research indicates that CimeXa is far superior to DE in the battle against bed bugs. When I initially read the thread, I thought the OP had not yet applied any of the DE. My goal was to HELP this person rid the apartment of bedbugs as fast as possible. And frankly, NoBugs, that was very insulting to accuse me of "hijacking" the thread unless you believe that the products have comparable efficacy.

    David I won't comment on your motive for posting on this site because I don't know your motive. It may be to help people, or push your product/service, or ego trip, or a combination. I do know mine, however, and it's to help bed bug victims. If the feathers of a few "experts" are ruffled in the process, that's unfortunate but so be it. It's an open forum so I can debate "experts' and readers may decide who to believe. I submit the reason "experts" are so upset is because I am winning those debates through the presentation of evidence-based material and objective, critical reasoning. Is that my problem or theirs?

    NoBugs wrote: Reposting others' private message comments which insult other users? Sounds like a high school move to me.

    So if I accuse someone of being an intolerant bigot, you would then tell me that I'm the one who's being intolerant (of intolerant bigots)? I just wanted to make TAOT aware of how her behavior across multiple threads might be viewed by some people other than me. I humbly suggest you should take note of that as well in the interest of projecting to the readers that you are a fair moderator and won't play favorites. I note that you didn't mention anything about BD's comment about Len Bias.

    NoBugs wrote: Canuck's comments highlight how having experts and professionals here is a good thing.

    I think it would be a good thing if we dropped the use of the word "expert" (use instead PMP, entomologist, K9 trainer, whatever in sig) since it carries a connotation which may or may not be deserved. Ultimately, bed bug victims need to trust whoever makes the most sense on the subject at hand. That may or may not be a PMP on any given issue. Personally, a few of the people here who overall I trust most are: yourself, Killer Queen, Lou Sorkin, Cilecto, Doug Summers. Outside of this site, it's people like Jeff White, Michael Potter, and Leon Wieler.

    My discussion with Canuck illustrates how I wish most interactions would go. You'll notice I mentioned I didn't treat any kind of wall voids so I responded accordingly. My general sense from reading various sites is that switch plates & outlet covers should be removed and then any voids or empty spaces should be treated, taking care to avoid dusting any electrical components. I acknowledged that her interpretation of CimeXa instructions appeared to be a valid one and suggested she call relevant parties to try to pin down the proper procedure. That's something which could be of value to many DIYers out there.

    If people engage me in a discussion where I sense they don't have an agenda, we can have some productive, often illuminating, conversations. The OP here noted that. NY Bug Man mentioned that on another thread. But if being "rude" is equated with challenging an "expert" on a given subject, then maybe this is not the site for me. Ultimately, your posts will reveal that to me and, so far, I believe I won't be here much longer unless I sense a change on your part.

  17. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 14:17:32
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    I would say posting the PM comment is high schoolish, but I can be snarky so I haven't called you out on your rudeness related to just me.

    You may think re-posting a PM from some anonymous "source" might help educate me on the error of my ways, but my volunteer work is with teenagers. So.....all in a day's work.

    I thought the discussion between you and Canuck was positive. My original comment was only to identify the two "professionals" and make a nod to BD not being an expert. You weren't mentioned because...well...you obviously have some issue with my posts. Come closer....closer....closer....I'm speaking softly...I don't care....

    I skim or skip the posts of people who irritate me, and I figure that others can do the same with mine.

    You are amusing in a way, with your demands or else...but, not my issue...

  18. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 17:17:53
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    Some comments about dust applications:

    a. Dusts are often over applied for various reasons however, we need to understand that a little bit of dust goes a long way when applying to suitable areas.

    b. The dust application video link above:
    1. The application is made both into the electric box and the void adjacent to the electric box in this video. In fact, this is stated during the application by the person in the video.
    2. Competent pros know that it is not entirely a good idea to apply dust inside the electric box.
    3. Dust application to the wall void adjacent to and surrounding the outlet box are recommended. However, as depicted in the video please note that this is a "plastic type" outlet box which flexes when leveraged by the screw driver such that the tip of the duster may be inserted to dust the void area. This is NOT possible when dealing with metal junction boxes and other more robust type outlet boxes. As such, the applicator may need to provide access for such applications via drilling or other suitable means.
    4. The pest pistol and similar dusters where the application tip and tubes are comprised of plastic provide a level of safety when working in and around electrical outlets. This is a good thing because, generally speaking, most applicators are usually allergic to electrical shock, arcing electric bolts, flames, etc.
    5. The application of dust under the baseboard molding and above the carpet area as depicted in the video is a tad curious. This is so because the verbal instruction is to apply about every twelve inches however, such an application would leave large gaps in untreated areas. Additionally, the void present under the carpet in the area adjacent to the tack strip is not addressed or mentioned. In such areas we usually pull the carpet to expose such areas for inspection and application purposes and then replace the carpet. Doing so is a more thorough and superior application methodology.

    Have a great day, greetings from pestworld 2014 ! pjb

  19. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 17:30:19
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    @Raising Cain You have missed my point.

    I don't care if you post to clarify something I have said but the fact is clear that you are here to generally be rude and antagonistic and add little value as such.

    If you were here to help people you would not restrict your posts to only those that seek to argue or where you can promote one product.

    You set out to cause trouble from the start and now that folks are getting bored of what you have to say it would seem time to bow out gracefully. Otherwise if you are genuine and are here for the right reasons why not start a fresh with a new profile name and take a less argumentative stance maybe.

    Otherwise let me be clear in again pointing out that your participation has a negative rather than positive effect and even when you have clearly breached the AUP of the site you still try to argue.

    Please understand that this is sort of my last ditch attempt to be nice and show you were you are somewhat misguided.

    David

  20. Raising Cain

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Oct 23 2014 19:45:14
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    Paul Bello wrote: Competent pros know that it is not entirely a good idea to apply dust inside the electric box.

    As I wrote earlier, I decided not to treat wall voids and electrical switches/outlets, so I didn't research all of the issues. From what I can tell, there appears to be differing views on how to treat these areas. Let's show some humility and not label those who don't agree with one's position as incompetent.

    Here is a quote directly from Code of Practice for Bed Bug Infestations in Australia:

    Apply dust to the inside of all electrical junction boxes. (Light switches, outlets, television cable outlets.)

    And here's one from European Code of Practice Bed Bug Management:

    Waterbased liquid sprays around an electrical point are not acceptable; however, the application of a dust may deliver effective control with minimal risk.

  21. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Oct 23 2014 20:00:01
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    Again you ignore the obvious and clear points raised.

    However you may need to understand the roles that COPR 1986 (control of pesticides regulations) and COSHH (control of substances hazardous to health act) play in pest control in the UK. Simply stated unless you have reason to treat you don't treat.

    Thus unless you can prove bedbugs are in a void or outlet you can't treat it.

    But in this case the product is in the US and as such we are told we must "always read the label". If the label and regulations say no outlets then any video that shows this being done is against the label and the EPA should take action to stop this occurring.

    This is not disagreeing with one it's disagreeing with the label and all those who wrote that advice. While I appreciate you may find that gnawing it is the reality.

    This forum should not support advice which is off label.

    David

  22. Raising Cain

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    Thu Oct 23 2014 20:32:33
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    Well, it appears I've brought Paul and David together! What's that saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. David, I'll cut you some slack here because you're probably posting from a pub after a long, hard, exhausting day of posting.

    Thus unless you can prove bedbugs are in a void or outlet you can't treat it.

    Huh? Link me but what does this have to do with the references I cited?

    But in this case the product is in the US and as such we are told we must "always read the label".

    A discerning eye would have noticed that the video is for the application of all types of dusts, not just CimeXa. Now I want you to examine the labels of all dusts sold by domyownpestcontrol.com and report back what you found. If you still want to throw people in jail, then we'll talk. And btw, that company has a solid reputation. It's one of the few of its kind which doesn't post bogus reviews to bolster the sales of products. You should think twice before disparaging it; after all, the fact that it doesn't carry your monitor speaks volumes about the company's dedication to quality.

    This forum should not support advice which is off label.

    I await your letter to Michael Potter admonishing him and his team for suggesting some off label use of CimeXa in that PCT article.

  23. Canuck

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 0:22:17
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    Points of clarity for those that find it relevant (and are interested):

    - I believe Ficam Insecticide Dust, in Australia, for bed bug control, is approved for application to the inside of junction boxes (light switches, outlets, cable outlets).

    - CimeXa, like any desiccant dust used for insect control, is vunerable to certain variables, resulting in a loss of efficacy, e.g. humidity, dust accumulation and general housekeeping functions, such as vacuuming, sweeping and dusting. IMHO, I question how a dust, applied as it was in the experiment, could fill an effective and efficient preventative (pro-active) role.

    - As RC provided a few tips concerning CimeXa, please be aware that (1) if time is required for the dust to settle you have already applied way too much (2) dust in open areas is vulnerable to any air movement - even the wagging of golden retriever's tail will dislodge it from where it was applied (3) the soluable application leaves a white residue behind which is very noticeable (4) damp areas includes sweating pipes and humid bathrooms.

  24. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Oct 24 2014 0:39:13
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    A competent professional knows that application of dusts in certain areas can be problematic for various reasons.

    This assertion is to be taken at face value. There are some pros who may choose to conduct such applications however, if such folks are in fact competent, then they've considered the various factors and decided that the benefits of such applications exceed the downside risks. However, they are licensed and certified pros so, they know what they are doing.

    Cimexa is a tool but it is just one of the tools available for such use.

    Suitably applied efficacious products and methodologies will yield the same results, dead bed bugs.

    Regarding label language:

    > In the US pros know and are guided by a simple phrase: The label is the law ! In fact, I can scan and post this headline from the NY State Applicator Training Books dating back to the 70s should I have the time and inclination but, alas, my I don't give a hairy rats ass attitude precludes me from doing so at this point in time.

    > Many insecticide product label use directions include language which indicates:

    " . . . apply to areas where pests (i.e. bed bugs) may travel, hide or harbor . . ."

    As such, this means that an applicator may choose to apply such insecticide products to potential harborage areas even though bed bugs may not actually be present or observed there at that time. Doing so would be in compliance with the label language.

    > Overall, many agree that we wish to avoid application of pesticides when not needed. However, when bedbugs are concerned the down side risks of infestation in the multi-family setting is a common and oft voiced concern.

    Once again, for the benefit of those who really need help with their bed bug problems, let's consider the question: "How is this helpful?" prior to posting.

    This said, perhaps we should ask our host NBs to create another Forum called the WWF, Wild West or Free For All Forum where argument, belligerence and such may run free as the common rule of the day.

    In this way, those folks who actually need help will be spared having to wade through gratuitous, argumentative and off topic comments whilst simply trying to find sound and viable responses to their requests and queries seeking assistance from knowledgeable individuals.

    C'mon gents this continued arguing over immaterial points isn't helpful for anyone now.

    pjb

  25. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 1:03:42
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    Raising Cain,

    I'm not going to respond to all of your points. I don't have time right now but I will note I agree with some of them (most experts here DO name their actual expertise, and it's a good idea).

    You wrote,

    If people engage me in a discussion where I sense they don't have an agenda, we can have some productive, often illuminating, conversations.

    You came to the boards with an agenda of attacking a forum member whose last name is "Cain", and were quite open about that. Perhaps you would consider changing your moniker out of respect for dialogue with other forum members. You can certainly criticize people's methods and ideas, but attacking people isn't civil.

    But if being "rude" is equated with challenging an "expert" on a given subject, then maybe this is not the site for me.

    Again, challenging ideas and methods is fine. But you do at times seem to go beyond that. The quote from your PM was bitchy and implied a criticism of people in this thread. It seems unnecessary.

    You are welcome to participate here but I lose patience when things seem uncivil. I'm not singling you out. I've asked many others including Paul, KillerQueen and David Cain many times in the past to remain civil and attack the ideas rather than the person, and I think for the most part, we do a good job of that around here.

  26. Nobugsonme

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    And by the way, Raising Cain, I didn't know who Len Bias was until you mentioned him, so BD's comment went right over my head. I don't follow basketball and I was in school when he died in 1986, and probably not paying much attention to the sports news.

    That said, BD's comment was maybe a bit off-color, but not an attack on others in the forums, so I wouldn't censor it as being "uncivil". If we were on a forum for people with addiction issues, that would be another story. Hope that clarifies things.

  27. bed-bugscouk

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 3:50:19
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    RC,

    COPR 1986 and COSHH are acts of parliament in the UK and as such they override codes of best practice.

    To put it simply a code may say its OK to do something as a protocol but the act of parliament states you cant do something unless its actually needed. In this case you can treat an outlet unless it actually has an infestation of bedbugs.

    You approach is flawed at the level of assuming bedbugs MUST be in walls and outlets when everything we know about dispersal and harbourage establishment indicates that unless its a heavy infestation (in which case other refugia are occupied) , if the outlet is behind a medium infested bed or if the bedbugs are driven to such locations due to ineffective treatment.

    As such the crux of your advice is based on a "protocol" based approach where you "know" in advance what needs to be done. I prefer to asses what needs to be done and respond accordingly. Its an approach that should become apparent to anyone working in the field and with experience of multiple infestations and multiple property configurations.

    I am also not sure why you feel you are able to speak on behalf of the do your own pest control website. If I call them and ask to confirm that your statement is correct do you think they will confirm?

    Again you have been asked to be civil and continue a crusade/vendetta directed against me which as has been pointed out is against the AUP of this site. Please stop or simply start your own hate site somewhere else as doing it on this site is not appreciated and as pointed out above is considered rude.

    David

  28. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 9:25:20
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    Raising Cain -  » 

    Here's a direct quote from someone who PMed me referring to your group: "All of them have no minds of their own. Bunch of ass kissers. This is like bed bug forums for high schoolers."

    As to my personal ass kissing . . .

    I believe that the professionals and experts that participate on this forum are absolutely amazing and awesome to volunteer their time and knowledge to help so very many bed bug distressed people.

    So if I attempt to make them smile and let them know I think they are wonderful for volunteering their time and knowledge in helping so many people . . . . and then some view that as ass kissing . . .

    I'm ok with that . . .

    because I do believe they are amazing and should be accordingly adored for being so.

    And along those lines . . .

    Canuck it is great to see you participating more and sharing your knowledge and expertise. Thank you!

  29. theyareoutthere

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 9:33:05
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    Ditto. I'm not as enthuisiastic, but am very grateful to the professionals in the field who donate their time.

    I think debate and discussions are great, but Robert's Rules of Order was developed for organizations for a reason. The internet hasn't developed that yet. Yes, I would be responsible for not joking around as much if such a rule was implemented. And, I've been cutting back on jokes based on some comments. Some of the professionals don't joke around as much any more either (any one remember the super secret military base story?).

    But, the level of rudeness under the name of "discussion"....c'mon

  30. Raising Cain

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    Let me try to steer this thread onto a more productive path. Why have I been pushing CimeXa? Some of it is personal experience, but mostly because of the two very recent studies by the University of Kentucky showing its spectacular efficacy and the increasing ineffectiveness of chemical-based pesticides in treating growing populations of resistant bed bugs. Even if PCOs do everything right in terms of applying other pesticides, it is becoming more and more likely that their effort will be unsuccessful if the residence contains resistant bugs. CimeXa is very inexpensive, arguably the safest of all bed bug pesticides, and perhaps the most effective in terms of reliably killing all populations of bed bugs. What's not to like? It gives more bang for the buck than any other product of any kind on the market.

    We're entering a window where a smart DIY approach would probably be more effective than the treatments of most PCOs. The nature of this site is such that it could have a transformative effect on the fight against bed bugs by crafting a flexible DIY strategy centered around CimeXa and communicating that approach. It would be grounded in common sense and the latest science. We're not talking about sleeping on a cot in the kitchen for a year.

    Here's a simple action plan:

    NoBugs - Updates or rewrites DE FAQ renaming and broadening it to discuss dessicants versus pyrethroid-based pesticides, incorporating the latest studies. Highlights CimeXa as the leading dessicant at present. I would be happy to contribute to this effort in any way NoBugs would like (additional research like contacting Kentucky team, writing initial draft, etc.).

    Paul Bello - Paul is experienced at doing videos and projects well in that medium. He would create a very detailed video showing how to apply CimeXa in all of the relevant areas. Such a video would dovetail nicely with his philosophy that the "how" is often more important than the "what". NB's updated FAQ would link to Paul's video. Paul would contact Michael Potter's team to understand where and how they applied CimeXa in those 6 apartments which resulted in 98% kill rate where CimeXa was only product used against bed bugs (e.g., no encasements, no steamers, etc). Additionally, specialists at Rockwell are very accessible and could provide some additional insight. My only concern is that Paul would not be willing to demonstrate the critical piece of dusting rings of CimeXa on the floor around the bed legs. That and applying all along the resident's perimeter IMHO are the key to ending the infestation. But maybe the UofK team would have something to say about that.

    Abs, TAOT, Others - Would direct people in forum to NoBugs FAQ.

    All of the above would go a long way toward steering DIYers to an approach which would maximize their chance for success. Of course, there's more to it. Encasements are a critical component. Also a detailed video showing what (in addition to CimeXa) to use and how to treat bedframes/headboards/couches/recliners would also be very useful.

    This site has a lot of great information. The FAQs are the best of their kind. Lou's bug IDs are invaluable. What's missing is putting many of the pieces together to streamline the treatment process and focus DIYers on the most important components/products and actions for success. Setting the Guinness Book record for time spent vacuuming will not yield tangible results. Knowing where and how to apply CimeXa will. Installing quality encasements and thoroughly treating the bedframe/headboard will. And so on. All of the above would be a start.

    Everybody on board? Kumbaya...

  31. BigDummy

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 14:32:17
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    You've got yourself the plan. All you need now is a website.

  32. Raising Cain

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    You've got yourself the plan. All you need now is a website.

    BD, are you upset that I didn't include you in the plan? You were kinda covered in "Others". But let me make amends and assign you as the joke writer for Bello's video. And I'll even get you started:

    Bello Final Video Tip: If the CimeXa fails and you have to bring in the sniffing K9s, be sure to bag and remove all of your cocaine and any dismembered body parts lying around in crawl spaces and other locations. ::rim shot::

    But seriously, I'm recently retired and focused on jazz piano, oddly enough improvising around standards like Let's Call the Whole Thing Off (you say tomato). More importantly, any website I create wouldn't have the traffic to have the desired effect which is to provide tangible results to a broad swath of BB victims.

  33. BigDummy

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    Fri Oct 24 2014 15:05:00
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    Say it ain't so.

  34. Nobugsonme

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    Hi Raising Cain,
    Your plan is not without merit.
    Here are some issues where I stand: we need a credible source to provide pesticide application and treatment information, such as a PMP like P Bello. I can't speak for whether Paul or another known expert here would want to do as you describe, but if they do, I am open to it.

    I have always been open to having pros give DIY advice (as long as their expertise warrants them doing so). What I have not thought was a good idea and still don't is having random users instruct others on pesticide application and use. Nothing personal and certainly there will be individuals who do enough research/have valid experience without an applicator's license or professional background.

    The other side of this is the pro in question has to want to present the material and feel it is correct for them to do so with their name and reputation involved.

    As for the FAQs, they are updated as often as possible and updating the DE one to incorporate more information about Cimexa is certainly a plan. Thanks for your offer of help. I will have to get back to you on that. I assume you have read the FAQ and know the 12/13 PCT article about Cimexa is already linked to and quoted? There are links to the product there and in the Useful Stuff page. More information could certainly be added.

  35. P Bello

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    Sat Oct 25 2014 14:18:05
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    Hmmm . . .

    Some comments:

    > Has anyone considered the time and cost of producing such videos?

    Please note that the seven videos recently produced were sponsored by Bayer (5), Mattress Safe (1) and Temp-Air (1) and that these folks provided a significant amount each in order to make this happen.

    In order to produce the quality and topicality adequately covered in the videos needed we're talking about $20k to $30k. Since RC is our $500 per hour guy, I'm sure he's fully capable, ready and willing to underwrite the costs thereof.

    Here's how: a) Go to my website. b) Click on the "order book" page. c) Order 637 copies of The Bed Bug Combat Manual using PayPal there. I'll then send you one copy of the book and forward the suitable balance to the production company such that we can get started on the video project work.

    Based upon prior experience we will likely have the unedited version and sufficient B-roll in the can prior to the holidays.

    > Please note that Dr. Dini Miller's team research results in testing DE and cimexa indicate that both produce similar results as indicated in my Pestworld notes.

    > BD, we're going to have to talk if you're assigned as my writer now.

    Have a great day folks, gotta go ! pjb

  36. P Bello

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    OK, this video project awaits the funding what's the deal Dude?

  37. BigDummy

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 8:20:49
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    It's been years since I've written professionally, it'll be nice to have a gig again. I don't charge much, I'm sure Daddy Warbucks can afford to foot the bill, I'm clearly worth every penny.

  38. P Bello

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 8:28:06
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    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha

    seriously,

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    (I'm not a LOL kinda-guy but that sh#ts funny!)

  39. Raising Cain

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 14:09:42
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    Canuck wrote: IMHO, I question how a dust, applied as it was in the experiment, could fill an effective and efficient preventative (pro-active) role

    Prevention is in many ways a more vexing problem than treating an infestation. If you were lucky enough to have a really skilled PCO, they might have drilled into the walls (especially those adjoining neighbor) and applied CimeXa which might last up to 10 years there. Placing CimeXa in other non-exposed areas would help in controlling the spread of any infestation. But, like you said, CimeXa in exposed or semi-exposed areas would be problematic.

    I've been considering what my steady state configuration might look like in a few months. I've decided to keep the encasements on the bed and that I want some degree of protection on the bed legs. I wouldn't mind being bitten if I knew it was the last meal for that BB. Five glue traps (one per leg) are smelly and would invariably end up catching more of my socks than BBs in preventative mode. Mineral oil can be messy and is probably overkill.

    I already had ClimbUps but I bought Jeff White's black-colored pitfall trap/monitor (like the color better). I dusted some CimeXa all around the outer portion and I also dusted the inside wall of the inner well. I've only fooled around a bit but it appears the CimeXa adheres well to those coarser walls. But then there are these considerations:

    (1) Independent of CimeXa, what % of BBs approach the interceptor but then don't climb its outer wall?
    (2) And would a BB inclined to climb the wall somehow be repelled by the CimeXa on it?
    (3) If not, would there be enough CimeXa to kill a BB who walks up the outside wall and then back down?

    To my knowledge, nobody's ever tried to quantify the first consideration. Wouldn't cameras work to provide this info? It's a shame we don't know this. The other two considerations could be easily tested by someone. I don't need BBs to become trapped in the interceptor, only climb the wall and then descend.

    There are probably some homemade solutions which would work better. Any thoughts on any of this Canuck, or anyone else?

  40. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 15:02:10
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    RC,
    Paul reported on a study presented at pest world which showed the black interceptors were more effective than the white ones. Granted, it's just one study.

    Since interceptor traps do work, I guess I am not sure why you'd augment them with CimeXa. Why not use as directed if they're proven to work as directed?

  41. Raising Cain

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 15:28:49
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    NoBugs,

    Yes I noticed that study. Interesting because earlier ones showed that ClimbUps and White's black trap/monitor performed about the same.

    My sense is a certain % of BBs will climb the outer wall and then, sensing slipperiness, exit from whence they came and disperse. Another group will climb the wall and walk around the rim for a bit and then descend the outer wall and disperse (per Wieler video). My hope is the CimeXa on the outer wall would kill those two groups of BBs. The worst case would be if they decide not to climb the outer wall and disperse. I wonder what % of BBs fall into the worst case category; if large, I probably would look at other alternatives. Surprised there hasn't been a study which looked at this - are you aware of any?

  42. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Oct 27 2014 16:43:29
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    Raising Cain - 1 hour ago  » 

    My sense is a certain % of BBs will climb the outer wall and then, sensing slipperiness, exit from whence they came and disperse. Another group will climb the wall and walk around the rim for a bit and then descend the outer wall and disperse (per Wieler video). My hope is the CimeXa on the outer wall would kill those two groups of BBs. The worst case would be if they decide not to climb the outer wall and disperse. I wonder what % of BBs fall into the worst case category; if large, I probably would look at other alternatives. Surprised there hasn't been a study which looked at this - are you aware of any?

    I'm not.

    It's possible also that bed bugs would emit alarm pheromones upon encountering the traps at all (which I believe is one of David Cain's concerns about this style trap making bed bugs disperse).

  43. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Oct 28 2014 10:06:47
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    Nobugsonme - 16 hours ago  » 
    I'm not.
    It's possible also that bed bugs would emit alarm pheromones upon encountering the traps at all (which I believe is one of David Cain's concerns about this style trap making bed bugs disperse).

    Actually, the main issue I have with isolation is not alarm pheromone although it is clear that as with many species of insect pheromone communication plays a significant role. It is less likley to come into play with a pitfall than a glue board.

    Simply put when bedbugs are forced to overcome an obstacle to get to a location that they want to be they become resourceful and will eventually find a way around them. This is why some people have reported bedbugs walking on the ceiling and "dropping" down onto isolated beds. At the end of the day its now accepted that some avoid the fall so the question becomes where do those bedbugs go. While we never found a definitive answer to that we did establish that it took longer to eradicate them when they did.

    The videos I have seen of bedbugs walking around the rim of an interception device and then walking off show an ability to analyse the situation which results in some bedbugs deciding not to fall into the pitfall. If that fact is communicated to other bedbugs would require a longer term video capture project to see if pitfall avoiders influenced the behavior of others.

    I am not certain that a bedbug that fell into the outer well would produce an alarm signal, the only people I know who seem to have a handle on the GS-MS techniques necessary to analyze the gas fractions are the Finnish group who claim to hold the rights on most of the bedbug connected pheromones.

    My belief is still that isolation is the wrong strategy because it forces the bedbugs to behave in a less natural state where they can not aggregate and are thus forced to harbor in locations that makes treatment more complex.

    I am still against glue based trap devices as not being effective and in general any trap that does not take into account the risks posed by pheromone communication.

    David

  44. bedbugtakeover

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    Tue Oct 28 2014 10:46:56
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    Raising Cain,

    I have been following you since your first post. I am only a member here for a few months but have been reading on this site for a while before that. You have a lot of valid points. You seem very knowledgeable in bed bugs. I think the people that come to this site would get so much more out of you if you did not come across as so hostile. You say you are trying to help people but all you do is argue with the pro's. Regardless of your personal opinion of any of them or what you believe they do with their time or business is irrelevant . What matters is this site. What matters is that thousands of people have been coming here for years asking for help and receiving it. Who cares if David is promoting his work. He is also helping people all day, night, and middle of the night. I think that everyone who is a member on bedbugger is human, correct me if I am wrong. OK so maybe out of 3000 post one of the pros gave wrong advice or was having a bad day and came off a certain way. Big deal! The bigger picture here is that regardless of what you think is right and what peoples real motives are they are still the same people that are here day in and day out helping people. In the beginning you were making valid points and refreshing. Now you are coming across as hateful and jealous. Just saying.

  45. theyareoutthere

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    Ditto, BBtakeover...very eloquent. I too think Raising Cain has some good points. I have good points too, but not all can be implemented.

    We've all been wanting more videos, but they are expensive and/or there is potential liability with "how to" videos for the expert who has donated his time. Look at how we pick apart videos from websites, even the pros websites.

  46. Nobugsonme

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    David, thanks for clarifying re: your concerns re: isolation.

  47. Raising Cain

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    TAOT wrote: We've all been wanting more videos, but they are expensive and/or there is potential liability with "how to" videos for the expert who has donated his time.

    It shouldn't be very expensive at all to make a useful video. Leon Wieler's videos didn't cost thousands to make. Everybody is making and uploading videos these days. Ultimately, this type of video would be judged by its content not production quality. Think more steak and less sizzle. Does it cover all the relevant places where you could apply CimeXa? Does it provide a clear demonstration on how to apply the CimeXa to those places? Does it communicate things to avoid? (e.g., dampness, spray form vs dust).

    The set and props would be the pro's residence (picture frames, electric outlets, cracks and crevices, baseboards, piping, wall voids, bed frame tubing, furniture joints, etc.). The video would not have to be shot continuously; you could independently film each treated area. Just slap a header at the beginning of each segment. I envision only a couple of important decisions to be made: (1) What applicator(s)..puffer, bulb, bellows, brush... would be used (2) Whether to go off label (e.g., placing rings around bed legs).

    So far as time, I would be willing to help out in the following ways: write intro to video, prepare list of areas to be treated, list things to cover for each area. As for money, Rockwell Labs would probably pony up a few hundred bucks if they knew the video was gonna be featured/linked in DIY section of bedbugger.com. And pro would more than recoup any time/cost through positive exposure which would follow from video.

    Maybe it's time to reveal what I'm driving at here. I envision a new entry on the banner of this site titled DIY Treatment Guide. Click on it and you'd find a very specific, inexpensive, chemical-free, step-by-step DIY treatment guide which would have embedded links to the relevant video(s)....note I would write initial draft and then open for comment. There would also be embedded links in the steps to the appropriate FAQs for more information. There would be about 10 steps and it would be no longer than 2-3 pages printed. There would be a section appended at the end which would list optional steps along with relevant links.

    The most common current treatment model is "spray and pray" where PCO spends, if you're really lucky, a total of 4 hours spread over 3 visits. A couple of years ago, Jeff White performed a study evaluating this protocol and found one third of the residences still had bed bugs after the 3rd visit. That percentage is probably higher now because of resistance trends. Steaming and other time-consuming methods would add too much to the cost to be viable. There's gonna have to be change to current model or the bed bug problem will just continue to worsen. Additionally, as Dini Miller noted, average victims don't want to spend their lives researching solutions or doing an extensive amount of prep work. What is needed is a simple DIY plan which focuses victims' attention on simple actions and products which will give them the best chance for success.

    This has been quite a month, no shortage of drama. But it's time for the phoenix to rise from the ashes. IMHO this is the way to significantly help BB victims at this time.

  48. Canuck

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    RC,
    IMHO, suggesting Rockwell Labs contribute, in any way, to a video portraying their product, points to unethical practices. It does not matter whether the contribution is time/labour or cash.
    Edit/addition: a donation of product is generally viewed as acceptable, but not always.

  49. Raising Cain

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    I don't think that would be an issue here because in the intro to the video the pro would cite Potter's INDEPENDENT studies as the reason for choosing CimeXa. The youtube notes would contain links to studies and state that money provided by Rockwell was to cover the cost of making video (which would be very minor) and pro received no funds beyond that.

  50. BigDummy

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 11:12:54
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    Raising Cain - 1 hour ago  » 

    TAOT wrote: We've all been wanting more videos, but they are expensive and/or there is potential liability with "how to" videos for the expert who has donated his time.

    It shouldn't be very expensive at all to make a useful video. Leon Wieler's videos didn't cost thousands to make. Everybody is making and uploading videos these days. Ultimately, this type of video would be judged by its content not production quality. Think more steak and less sizzle. Does it cover all the relevant places where you could apply CimeXa? Does it provide a clear demonstration on how to apply the CimeXa to those places? Does it communicate things to avoid? (e.g., dampness, spray form vs dust).

    So you've also been a consultant in this field and understand that production quality doesn't sway peoples' opinions; ultimately they will judge it on content and disregard presentation?

    The set and props would be the pro's residence (picture frames, electric outlets, cracks and crevices, baseboards, piping, wall voids, bed frame tubing, furniture joints, etc.). The video would not have to be shot continuously; you could independently film each treated area. Just slap a header at the beginning of each segment. I envision only a couple of important decisions to be made: (1) What applicator(s)..puffer, bulb, bellows, brush... would be used (2) Whether to go off label (e.g., placing rings around bed legs).

    Which pro did you have in mind discussing going off label? Who did you say was going to kick in a few bucks towards production?

    So far as time, I would be willing to help out in the following ways: write intro to video, prepare list of areas to be treated, list things to cover for each area. As for money, Rockwell Labs would probably pony up a few hundred bucks if they knew the video was gonna be featured/linked in DIY section of bedbugger.com. And pro would more than recoup any time/cost through positive exposure which would follow from video.

    Okay, so let's assume that Rockwell is completely cool with a pro discussing going off label on their product that they're contributing funds towards. Hardly makes this site independent at that point, no?

    Maybe it's time to reveal what I'm driving at here. I envision a new entry on the banner of this site titled DIY Treatment Guide. Click on it and you'd find a very specific, inexpensive, chemical-free, step-by-step DIY treatment guide which would have embedded links to the relevant video(s)....note I would write initial draft and then open for comment. There would also be embedded links in the steps to the appropriate FAQs for more information. There would be about 10 steps and it would be no longer than 2-3 pages printed. There would be a section appended at the end which would list optional steps along with relevant links.

    That all sounds fascinating, good luck to you on your site.

    The most common current treatment model is "spray and pray" where PCO spends, if you're really lucky, a total of 4 hours spread over 3 visits. A couple of years ago, Jeff White performed a study evaluating this protocol and found one third of the residences still had bed bugs after the 3rd visit. That percentage is probably higher now because of resistance trends. Steaming and other time-consuming methods would add too much to the cost to be viable. There's gonna have to be change to current model or the bed bug problem will just continue to worsen. Additionally, as Dini Miller noted, average victims don't want to spend their lives researching solutions or doing an extensive amount of prep work. What is needed is a simple DIY plan which focuses victims' attention on simple actions and products which will give them the best chance for success.

    Simple is such a relative term. What is simple to Paul, David, KillerQueen or Canuck ain't so simple to me. What's simple to me, and this is purely speculation as we only have your ONE clearance to go by, but what's simple to me isn't simple to you. It's not a mathematical equation, each case can have its own dynamics, you seem to be getting into Magic Bullet territory here.

    This has been quite a month, no shortage of drama. But it's time for the phoenix to rise from the ashes. IMHO this is the way to significantly help BB victims at this time.

    I'll just echo what's been stated above, you have some decent ideas, but the Svengali act is being received just as such. You never did give a definitive date on your departure if your recommendations weren't put in place.

  51. Nobugsonme

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    Raising Cain - 3 hours ago  » 

    Maybe it's time to reveal what I'm driving at here. I envision a new entry on the banner of this site titled DIY Treatment Guide. Click on it and you'd find a very specific, inexpensive, chemical-free, step-by-step DIY treatment guide which would have embedded links to the relevant video(s)....

    RC,
    You must realize this idea has already occurred to me.

    The issue is, I'm not comfortable with people who aren't licensed pesticide applicators (and then experienced and knowledgeable in bed bug treatment to boot) giving DIY treatment advice.

    I'd be very happy to host such videos and heck, "kick in a few hundred bucks" to make them independent, if that were all it takes.

    However, we'd need someone like Paul to be willing to be in the videos, and someone to shoot and edit them (at whatever level of quality). That's not so easy to make happen.

    As others noted above, there are issues with many existing videos of this kind, which is why I don't slap up more of them.

  52. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 13:40:09
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    Raising Cain -  » 
    Maybe it's time to reveal what I'm driving at here. I envision a new entry on the banner of this site titled DIY Treatment Guide. Click on it and you'd find a very specific, inexpensive, chemical-free, step-by-step DIY treatment guide which would have embedded links to the relevant video(s)....note I would write initial draft and then open for comment. There would also be embedded links in the steps to the appropriate FAQs for more information. There would be about 10 steps and it would be no longer than 2-3 pages printed. There would be a section appended at the end which would list optional steps along with relevant links.

    I also have been wanting a DIY FAQ (or thread) for some time that I (and others) could merely link to when someone is seeking DIY advice. Therefore, along those lines, and with Paul Bello's permission, I had started compiling numerous DIY posts from Mr. Bello since he is the only PMP on the forum that gives DIY advice.

    However . . . Mr. Bello recently stated:

    P Bello -  » 
    In the near future The Bed Bug Battle Guide will be published. This is a no nonsense bed bug guide intended for those who cannot afford professional services but would like to have such information they can refer to at an affordable price online.
    In the meanwhile, I'm happy to respond to bed bug and other pest related questions as they occur.

    And for that reason I put the compilation of Mr. Bello's DIY posts on the back burner with the belief that once Paul publishes his comprehensive DIY guide . . . that my compilation of such DIY posts would be rendered moot as the guide would undoubtedly be more concise / to-the-point / and easier to understand.

    It is also my understanding that a pdf of such DIY guide will be available for under $10 due to the fact that he receives countless requests for such information from people that simply cannot afford to hire a PCO. Further, Mr. Bello is already currently working on additional bed bug videos which will be production quality and which will include DIY advise.

    Canuck -  » 
    IMHO, suggesting Rockwell Labs contribute, in any way, to a video portraying their product, points to unethical practices. It does not matter whether the contribution is time/labour or cash.
    Edit/addition: a donation of product is generally viewed as acceptable, but not always.

    I don't understand this? Are you saying that a manufacturer cannot sponsor a video showing the proper use and application of their product? I would think that as long as it is disclosed that they are sponsoring such video that it isn't a problem. . . but that is waaaaay above my pay grade . . . perhaps Mr. Bello can comment?

  53. Raising Cain

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    So you've also been a consultant in this field and understand that production quality doesn't sway peoples' opinions; ultimately they will judge it on content and disregard presentation?

    Not as a consultant but as a person who's watched a lot of youtube videos. People appeared to like those JulesNoise videos which didn't exactly have high production quality. The people who would watch this video would be victims who just want to rid themselves of the bugs - they could give a sh!t about bells and whistles.

    Which pro did you have in mind discussing going off label? Who did you say was going to kick in a few bucks towards production?

    Let's start here: How much money do you think it would take to make a video? This is quite straightforward. There is minimal motion involved. It's that domyownpestcontrol video extended to more treatment sites plus an intro and a bit more verbiage for each location.

    I don't know if a pro would step up to do this. But the one that does and does a good job on the video would reap tremendous benefits. As for going off label, Potter's team suggested some off label ways of using CimeXa. The pro would have to make people aware of the very minimal danger of placing rings around bed legs versus the huge benefit of doing so.

    BTW I would be willing to fund up to $500 if I had some control over the project. For example, CimeXa ring around the bed or legs is a critical piece to eliminating BBs and would have to be included. It's not rocket surgery. But I'm not gonna invest my money to make an inferior product. Every word written or spoken needs to have a purpose and be specific enough to help the victim. No fluff like some other videos.

    That all sounds fascinating, good luck to you on your site...'ll just echo what's been stated above, you have some decent ideas, but the Svengali act is being received just as such. You never did give a definitive date on your departure if your recommendations weren't put in place.

    Ultimately, some pro would need to step up to make the video. And then NoBugs would have to go along with the DIY plan extension to the site. I suspect the odds are slim of both of those happening and, yes, then I will no longer post here. I had a specific objective when I started to post here; if I am unable to achieve it, there's no reason to stay around. I had about 5 other areas of interest. For example, I planned to write a detailed post on caulking specifying the best material to use to combat bed bugs.

    NoBugs wrote: The issue is, I'm not comfortable with people who aren't licensed pesticide applicators (and then experienced and knowledgeable in bed bug treatment to boot) giving DIY treatment advice.

    I understand where the video is concerned - you need a PMP to step up there. As for the plan itself, I mentioned I would write the first draft and it would be opened for comment and change. It eventually would not be published on your site under my name. I wouldn't want any reference to me at all and it wouldn't make any sense to do so. It would appear on your site like a FAQ, no author attached. Ultimately you would have to believe it's a sound plan which meets its objectives. There would be nothing iconoclastic about it except maybe the CimeXa around the bed. Its utility would be in the packaging of the information in a way which could be acted on by almost any bed bug victim.

  54. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Nobugsonme -  » 
    You must realize this idea has already occurred to me.

    Hi NoBugs . . . I was writing my post as you were posting yours, and didn't see it!

  55. Nobugsonme

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    AbsolutelyFreaking - 6 minutes ago  » 

    Nobugsonme -  » 
    You must realize this idea has already occurred to me.

    Hi NoBugs . . . I was writing my post as you were posting yours, and didn't see it!

    Thanks, Abs.

    I am not sure RC saw it either!

    I have been interested in this since day 1 (which is 8 years and 27 days ago).

    This site has never been against DIY. It has been against people who aren't qualified to give DIY advice doing so. That's an important distinction.

    There's a difference between an entomologist suggesting you use a product in a certain way and some layperson doing so, and that may be a problem where your plan is concerned, RC.

    It would be nice if we could have it here and not just tell people to buy an eBook, but it would take an expert who was willing to work with me to make that happen.

  56. Raising Cain

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    NoBugs wrote: I am not sure RC saw it either!....It would be nice if we could have it here and not just tell people to buy an eBook, but it would take an expert who was willing to work with me to make that happen.

    Again, what I write would be open for comment and revision (before it makes its way to the DIY link) from everyone, including pros. Ultimately, you have the knowledge and ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm sure you appreciate that, in any profession, there are good, mediocre, and poor practitioners. Just because something is written by a professional doesn't mean it's any good. It would be far better to start with a document synthesized from a thorough review of all of the BB literature and have people comment on it for readability, accuracy, utility, etc. than to link to a publication by a single individual.

    There is also the independence issue. Whatever's produced via that internal process would be immune to outside influence and funding. For example, Paul has been financed by Bayer in the past. Do you really think he's gonna have the cohones to tell people that the popular Temprid fared poorly in recent lab tests against resistant and partially resistant BB strains? Paul writes a lot of words but in the end I'm often not sure what he's saying or recommending. It seems like every post ends up like this: aah lots of ways to do stuff, just be smart about how you do things kids...hope that helps. Contrast that to Killer Queen's posts. Is there any reason to believe whatever he produces won't be of the same nature? And I maintain those type of posts and publications won't be of much value to the average BB victim.

  57. Nobugsonme

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    My point remains that treatment advice should come from a pro. There are liability issues there. A named professional giving treatment advice is different from you or myself. That's just how it is. I don't believe in giving medical or legal advice either.

    Lots of sites which try and copy this one have a treatment section written by someone with no expertise and credentials. Expertise is not enough in my opinion.

    I appreciate your offer but you have to understand we don't lack a DIY section because no one here is capable of writing one. We lack one because no one qualified is willing to be the named expert behind the advice.

    You mention KillerQueen but you must realize he and other experts here besides Paul don't -- as a general rule -- publicly post treatment advice.

  58. KillerQueen

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 17:41:17
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    Ok, let's start with this job that I'm about to work in. Tens of thousands of bugs in every inch of this 2000 square foot apartment. Who wants to hold the camera?

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Widget

    Feel free to edit for the player to load here nobugs

  59. Canuck

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 17:46:25
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    Abs and BD,
    I was probably a litte too cryptic in posting this am as I was rushing out the door. I felt compelled to post on at least one point and trust bedbuggers would post on other items that were outside of acceptable practices. For BD that was 'off label' and a valid one, IMHO.

    For example, a cost-saving measure was to use a Pro's private residence to save on location fees. Great - whose the lucky Pro volunteering to treat their residence for a pest they do not have?

    And of course a manufacturer has every right to produce/fund or partially contribute to a video on their product. Would they risk their branding investment in something they could not control? Guess someone will have to ask them to know for sure.

    My point was more that if the end product is an endorsement by accepted SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) and by this website, there is a trust value created. If one company's product is the only product discussed and that company also funded and/or contributed in kind (video editing, sound track, etc.) that trust value is comprimised as a result.

    That is one Canuck's opinion; which I feel compelled to point out - CimeXa is not available in Canada.

    BD - I do not believe any project involving more than 1 person is simple; nor do I believe a solution to control bed bugs is simple. I am amazed that each infestation I view has something different that previous ones. No one detection tool, no one remediation tool and no one professional is the magic bullet.

  60. theyareoutthere

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 18:35:58
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    I'm not expert, but isn't the DIY treatment different if you bombed after finding 1,000 bugs vs. woke up at 3 a.m. and caught a bug (and unbeknownst to you, there are only have 5 bugs).

    RC, KQ has been doing it for years, why not have him write it up? Is this KQ's practice?

    That's the other issue...why would a pro write it up or video it if it's not his or her practice? If he or she hasn't personally seen it work for hundreds or thousands of cases? But, just like other industries, don't we want to try the newest finding vs. the tried and true method? Or, in all fairness, aren't professionals like KQ and Paul Bello changing their skill set all the time to deal with new challenges in the field? They are limited by what is permitted, what is ethical (business ethics), and by the regulatory agencies.

    Do we think the pros lawyers will allow them to make this video? Will their spouse allow them to treat a home which doesn't have bedbugs (as Canuck pointed out)?

    This is the issue: we'd all love more resources. I'm going to have to read Paul's book again (it's been 2-3 years), but I thought it had specific advice for different situations.

    Bottom Line: Our hostess has asked the pros several times to come up with their treatment recommendations and she would place these tables side by side. For various reasons, this hasn't worked. It would be great, but it hasn't happened yet. And, this is professional treatments not DIY.

    RC, you probably haven't noticed, but sometimes people argue on this site because they passionately believe in their method. So, it might take a long time to get this implemented.

    It is difficult to get change of the existing systems....I find this site helpful because I read of the various stratgies and latest developments. And, it does appear to help people who are facing an infestation. It's not as clear as my electronics manuals (bad attempt at humor), but it does help people evaluate the options: professional, DIY, etc.

  61. P Bello

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    Wed Oct 29 2014 22:10:27
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    Some further clarification:

    Video Sponsorship:
    > It is not unethical for a manufacturer to sponsor a video in which the proper use of their product is depicted. Rather, such efforts may be characterized as product stewardship and/or promotion. This is acceptable as long as the information presented is accurate and does not misrepresent the product(s) and information presented.

    Video Production:
    > The best videos are conducted at actual infested locations where the work is being done rather than to merely "fake it". This is why the seven videos recently produced were conducted at actual field sites.

    > There are many factors which are being glossed over and ignored regarding the production of such videos. Such factors include: proper lighting, sound & video equipment with which to capture suitable audio and video. A suitable infested location. Suitable and proper executed releases for the locations and any persons who may appear in whole or part within the video. Suitable skilled staff and talent. Time. Travel expenses. Suitable compensation for skilled staff. Post production edit and other such work.

    > Let's NOT grossly underestimate the quantity of resources that need to be assembled and committed to the production of a decent video.

    > Video experience:
    Hmmm . . .
    OK.
    All the people in this conversation who have extensive experience in coordinating the production of numerous such videos from beginning to end, inclusive of planning, story board composition, production schedule composition, script writing & editing, still photo composition and placement, live specimen wrangling, live demonstration, travel coordination, production and post production work and other such work on a professional basis with various production company entities; please raise your hand.

    Oh, that's just me.

    Relax, additional videos are on the way and will be available for view when they are completed.

    > Off Label Pesticide Use:
    Let's get this strait right now ! No manufacturer that markets registered products in the US is going to support, sponsor or condone ANY non-label compliant uses of ANY of their pesticide products ! ! ! And, no licensed professional applicator is going to support, promote, recommend or condone ANY non-label or regulatory compliant use of ANY pesticide product ! ! !

    We ALL need to realize that doing so places these products, manufacturers and licensed applicators at risk of being subject to various disciplinary measures.

    PLEASE realize that this is NOT a game nor is it the wild, wild west where anything goes. There are numerous regulations (i.e. laws) which must be complied with regarding the use of pesticides in these fifty United States kids !

    > Comic Relief:
    What's almost comical here is that we have a guy who's entire world of bed bug experience is a sample size of one that's successfully accomplished the task of alienating and pissing off nearly everyone who regularly participates on this site whether pro or civilian.

    Seriously think about this kids: folks such as KQ, DC and myself will likely conduct more bed bug work in one week, or even just one day, than this person will have seen in his entire lifetime. Let's repeat that: his ENTIRE lifetime ! How's that for a better perspective folks?

    Further, while I cannot speak entirely for other pros, many who have been working in this industry for a number of years possess education, experience and knowledge that is far deeper and broader than a person who has just recently read up on some articles available to the general public.

    Additionally, those of us who's personal education and experience extends from field work to lab and development work are aware of certain nuggets of information well in advance of the average layperson. For example, above there is a comment regarding dark colored pitfall traps versus light or white such units. However, that dark colored traps out trapped their light colored counterparts has been known to industry professionals for a number of years now.

    It's late, I need to teach a bed bug class tomorrow, have a great tomorrow kids ! pjb

  62. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Thu Oct 30 2014 13:10:12
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    KillerQueen -  » 
    Ok, let's start with this job that I'm about to work in. Tens of thousands of bugs in every inch of this 2000 square foot apartment. Who wants to hold the camera?

    Oh Dear Lord in Heaven!! KQ, can you give us any specifics . . . as in how it could get that bad without the homeowner knowing?! . . . or did they know and just not care that they had bed bugs?!

    . . . and I volunteer RC to hold the camera for you!!

    (psssst . . . teasing you RC)

  63. Raising Cain

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    Thu Oct 30 2014 19:46:56
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    I have a real Halloween treat for BD, Bello, Cain, TAOT and others: this will be my last post on this site. NoBugs has identified the liability issue as her key concern. I figured it would be something like that but I needed to hear it from her to be sure. I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think someone could sue a free website for offering "bad advice". If a person paid for access to the website, then that might be a whole different matter. But I trust NoBugs investigated her exposure when she created bedbugger.com and feels being conservative in this respect is the best policy. That's cool, I certainly appreciate that position and have no desire to try to persuade her otherwise.

    Like I've said before, I had a primary goal when I started posting and, now that the situation's been clarified, I have no interest in remaining here. Ladies and Gentlemen, you may now unfasten your seat belts. The bumper car ride is over, kids.

    I'll probably lurk from time to time to keep up with developments so when the inevitable moment arrives when I have to battle these bastards again, I'll be ready. By "these bastards", I'm referring to bed bugs, not Cain and Bello.

    NoBugs, would you close my account? I looked but didn't notice a way for me to deactivate it in my profile. I did send a couple of PMs - Will people be able to read them if my account's been closed? If not, maybe wait a couple of days. Thank you!

  64. Nobugsonme

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    Raising Cain - 1 hour ago  » 
    I have a real Halloween treat for BD, Bello, Cain, TAOT and others: this will be my last post on this site. NoBugs has identified the liability issue as her key concern. I figured it would be something like that but I needed to hear it from her to be sure. I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think someone could sue a free website for offering "bad advice".

    RC,
    I think I made it clear that non-experts should not be giving advice for all kinds of reasons. Liability is just one of them. The bigger issue is that entomologists who study bed bugs and experienced PMPs who work with them daily should know more about bed bugs than most laypeople. That's a concept you seem resistant to.

    I can understand that on some levels. However, the example of competing results in different studies on the same products is well known to everyone who follows scientific studies.

    The bottom line is I want this site to give good advice not bad advice. And I think it should come from someone with some credentials and expertise.

    I don't like to conduct admin business ON the forums, but since I am not sure your email address works: All the best to you. People can indeed read your PMs if your account is closed. So I will close it now at your request.

    Please do not start a new account in future. If you ever want to post again, email me to reopen this account. There's a link in the sidebar.

  65. AbsolutelyFreaking

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    Fri Oct 31 2014 10:38:19
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    Dear Raising Cain,

    Raising Cain -  » 
    I'll probably lurk from time to time to keep up with developments

    If you are lurking at the moment . . . there are a few things I would like to say to you!

    First, thank you for the PM . . . there were several points that you brought up that I would have liked to have had the opportunity to discuss with you!

    Raising Cain -  » 
    . . . Like I've said before, I had a primary goal when I started posting and, now that the situation's been clarified, I have no interest in remaining here.

    And, second (and probably more importantly) . . .

    RC, as you stated above, you had a primary goal (and agenda) when you started posting. IMHO, that "agenda" was a worthy one. . . . If, in fact, your agenda was to point out the need for a DIY FAQ and to be instrumental in procuring a DIY FAQ for bedbugger.com. (But not if your agenda was to "push" one specific product.) However, your worthy agenda got lost at times beneath the hostility, bickering, and "do it my way" demands (again IMO).

    NoBugs, in fact, stated that she too shares the desire for such DIY FAQ. And I also wanted such a DIY thread or FAQ to the point that I had begun to compile Paul Bello's DIY posts into a DIY thread. (Yes I understand that you want a different sort of DIY FAQ, but as stated, no expert is stepping up to write one, and as Paul is the only expert that gives DIY advice on the forum, that is why I was trying to compile his posts . . . because I knew that NoBugs would only allow DIY advice from an expert/professional.)

    Now . . . with all that being said . . .

    As stated by several posters (myself included). . . you have good ideas and some valid points! IMHO you could be an asset to this forum and help many bed bug victims looking for help and advice.

    Just because you couldn't get the DIY FAQ accomplished the way YOU wanted it . . . doesn’t mean you can't stick around and help people! (In regards to your fondness of CimeXa . . . if I am able to complete the compilation of DIY posts, it would be a thread that you could always post on and explain why you think CimeXa is a superior and "go to" product! . . . At least that might work until an expert/pro steps up to write a specific DIY FAQ!)

    Anyway . . . It seems you have learned much about bed bugs in a short period of time; you seemingly have superior aptitude and communication skills; and you seemingly have a gift/skill for research . . .

    YOU could contribute and help a lot of people here!!

    (Once again peeps . . . the above are merely my thoughts and opinions . . . and I'm entitled to them! )

  66. BigDummy

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    Mon Feb 27 2017 13:12:56
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    Raising Cain - 2 years ago  » 
    I have a real Halloween treat for BD, Bello, Cain, TAOT and others: this will be my last post on this site. NoBugs has identified the liability issue as her key concern. I figured it would be something like that but I needed to hear it from her to be sure. I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think someone could sue a free website for offering "bad advice". If a person paid for access to the website, then that might be a whole different matter. But I trust NoBugs investigated her exposure when she created bedbugger.com and feels being conservative in this respect is the best policy. That's cool, I certainly appreciate that position and have no desire to try to persuade her otherwise.
    Like I've said before, I had a primary goal when I started posting and, now that the situation's been clarified, I have no interest in remaining here. Ladies and Gentlemen, you may now unfasten your seat belts. The bumper car ride is over, kids.
    I'll probably lurk from time to time to keep up with developments so when the inevitable moment arrives when I have to battle these bastards again, I'll be ready. By "these bastards", I'm referring to bed bugs, not Cain and Bello.
    NoBugs, would you close my account? I looked but didn't notice a way for me to deactivate it in my profile. I did send a couple of PMs - Will people be able to read them if my account's been closed? If not, maybe wait a couple of days. Thank you!

    So much for leaving the site, eh?

  67. Ombugsman

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    Tue Feb 28 2017 13:32:05
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    This thread is almost 2.5 years old. Since Big Dummy decided to bump it, a few updates:

    (1) There was quite a bit of discussion about applying the dust to electrical box. Look at what the Rockwell Lab representative is doing here and decide for yourself if he is violating the label instructions:

    https://youtu.be/hmZQDmhpiWk?t=294

    (2) There was a lot of discussion about off-label use in the context of putting Cimexa on the floor about the bed legs and under the bed (NOT across the entire floor). The Potter University of Kentucky study suggested strategic placement of CimeXa on certain parts of floor as an option. The CimeXa label allows the treatment of floors and floor coverings for fleas (at a rate of 2 ounces per 100 square feet) so it is not a safety issue. There were professionals that were concerned about potential liability of treating for bedbugs by placing in semi-open places because the label does not specify that in treatment for bedbugs. But if you are not a professional and go the DIY route, you face no such liability.

    (3) There was talk about a DIY plan which would have included the use of CimeXa. A year ago someone created on reddit a sub which features a DIY plan centered almost exclusively around CimeXa. For example, it doesn't talk about the use of encasements. As such, it's real focus is the lowest cost DIY way to eradicate bed bugs. It's a decent write-up which is worth looking at but I would say that bed bug victims should also read the FAQs on this site which is much broader in scope and then decide which approach is best for their situation. Here is the reddit link:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/BedbugAssistance/comments/3f0btu/pirates_human_support_safety_first/


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