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DDT vs. Rachel Carson

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  1. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 5 2007 20:47:01
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    Moving this from another topic:

    Folks, you can talk about anything you want, but please start a new topic when you notice yourselves drifting (in this case, veering sharply and violently off course!)

    And please copy and paste stuff yourself if you want to start a new topic--if you're sure it should move (in this case, it was clearly another topic). Thanks in advance!

    Nobugs

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    Bugalina said:

    This is horrible...if this is true..its horrible.....but it doesn't surprise me......People who could make a difference just don't give a damn...Our politicians, ALL of them, no matter what party...only give a shit about their election., or the money they can make from their high and mighty popular Hollywood causes...Our country needs help...on so many levels...bed bugs being just one of them. To take away a person's possessions, meager as they may be, without telling them, is awful...I know environmentalists are anti pesticide but damn it....a good pesticide is the only tool that is going to get rid of these monster bugs...Rachel Carson saved some birds...but her "cause" turned out to kill hundreds of thousands of people...not one human death has been positively attributed to DDT...however hundreds of thousands of people have positively died from malaria after DDT was pulled off the market..Such stupidity...such blind ignorance......people are throwing out perfectly good clothing, bedding, sofas, computers, books,...all because they are infested with bed bugs...Aren't these things polluting our waste streams!!! Give us something that works effectively and efficiently... Sometimes people just can't see the forest thru the trees... such blind ignorance..people in shelters, poor people, they don't have the luxury of calling in a PCO...they don't have the money to buy supplementary products..they need a good pesticide that will rid their shelters of bed bugs..No one , no matter their socio-economic level, wants to live with bugs coming out of their beds to suck their blood.....its barbaric...Can this really be happening in the year 2007 !!!
    Posted 5 hours ago

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    BeenBedBugged said:

    I'm sorry, but the statement about Rachel Carson and her "cause" killing thousands of people is just plain irresponsible. period.
    Posted 3 hours ago

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    Bugalina said:

    Well call it as you may..the banning of DDT was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands because the malaria mosquitos that would have been killed off were no longer killed off...statistics don' t lie.......but that's why I call it ..blind ignorance...their are those who just refuse to see the truth....statistics don't lie..
    Posted 16 minutes ago

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  2. Bugalina

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 5 2007 21:03:47
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    thanks nobugs...by the way...DDT is now back on the market , in many African Nations, ( South Africa, Ethiopia, Kenya) They finally fought back against being bullied by Western nations....They are very pleased to report that once again , deaths caused by malaria infected mosquitos have been drastically reduced, thanks to the reuse of DDT....by drastically reduced I means thousands and thousands....I bet those poor people who live in those malaria plagued villages are very happy that DDT has been reintroduced...they have taken back their power and are no longer being dictated to by some western environmentalists telling them what's good for them.....sometimes its difficult to accept the truth... nothing is perfect...but saving thousands of lives sounds like a rational decision to me.....ps..I had the pleasure of actually speaking to a man who was instrumental in getting the ban lifted....he is connected with WHO....

  3. BeenBedBugged

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 5 2007 21:41:16
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    Moved from inappropriate thread (sorry NBOM!)

    Great title, BTW!

    Ok, here goes:

    It is irresponsible to:

    1. make the claim that DDT is the only answer to the Bedbug problem.

    2. make the claim that DDT has not been proven to be harmful to the environment, not just birds, but fish. DDT has been shown by reputable scientists to cause disruption of delicate ecological balances, and its overuse was responsible for wiping out entire bird species, particularly raptors.

    3. adopt the position that Rachel Carson is some kind of mass murderer for pointing out a serious environmental problem.

    I would like to see *your* statistics.

    Here are some for you to ponder. First, it is understandable that the desire for a blanket fix-all to this problem has led many to feel that DDT is the answer, studies have shown bedbug resistance to DDT, even before Rachel Carson's work raised public awareness about pesticides polluting our environment:

    Bedbugs have been show to be resistant to DDT:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1307427&dopt=Abstract

    "Susceptibility levels for the adult bed-bug, Cimex lectularius, in Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais-Brazil, to DDT, were determined during the period 1985 to 1986. The test results showed that a 4% dosage of DDT is not enough to kill 55% of the insects. The data are sufficient to show that there exists bed-bug resistance to DDT in Belo Horizonte."

    http://www.pesticidesafety.uiuc.edu/newsletter/html/200605e.html

    "Bed bug resistance to insecticides is not a new phenomenon. Resistance to DDT was first reported in the late 1940s and was so widespread a decade later that other products were already being recommended as alternatives. Extension entomologist Michael Potter cautions that there are a number of reasons other than insecticide resistance why pest-control professionals may have difficulty eliminating bed bugs."

    As for your claim that Rachel Carson is responsible for the deaths of thousands, I presume you are referring to malaria cases. However, you seem unaware that DDT is still in use in many countries, and that mosquitoes also have shown resistance to DDT. In some places where DDT is still used for malaria prevention, bedbug activity is STIMULATED by the use of DDT:

    http://www.awitness.org/column/bedbug_ddt.html

    And, finally, here 's an antidote to the Libertarian prattle that Rachel Carson is another Stalin.

    I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this issue, but I am afraid that you have grasped at straws in your search for an easy solution.

    I hope that some of the new innovations we will see in the next ten years will include effective treatments that are not toxic to either humans or the environment. The pheromone monitoring traps are a start. We can also hope for predatory insects or other bio controls that can be introduced to the home environment without danger of creating yet another pest problem. Heat treatments also hold great promise. Furthermore, it *is* possible to rid oneself of bed bugs without DDT, by following the advice of the generous people here, including yourself.

    I respect the work you have done, and the care with which you try to help others here to manage their response to bed bug infestations. However, with that willingness to share your expertise comes a responsibility to make factual and true claims. The claim about Rachel Carson was irresponsible, and I stand by my position.

    I sincerely wish you a good evening,

    BBB

  4. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 5 2007 23:35:34
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    BBB--no apologies needed. I don't want people to think I am a meanie about going off topic --we all get off topic (me too, probably more than anyone) and why the heck not?

    The forums is for everyone. (As long as we TAG our posts with appropriate topics, when more are added to the thread, we will still be able to find stuff later.)

    But I thought this particular issue might get a bit heated(!) and anyway, I am sure it will come up more than once.

  5. Bugalina

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Fri Apr 6 2007 8:50:56
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    http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202004/Spring2004/DDT_Africa.pdf

    For every article you cite, I cite another. I will not get involved with "anger".....DDT is a good pesticide, probably no more toxic to humans and the environment than the the Suspends and Phantom's and Demands, etc that are being used now. I know one study I came upon that cited DDT as having resistance problems was funded by Bayer Science, the makers of Suspend. A little conflict of interest, wouldn't you say... People are led like sheep over the cliff. I don't care what anyone else thinks...I will do my own thinking, and come to my own conclusions. Studies of resistance have many variables, but the numbers of lives that are being saved...now...because of DDT use, speaks for itself...
    I would use DDT in a heartbeat if it were available. It was grossly misused on crops, and vegetation, but for indoor residual spraying...it works...on bedbugs...I will not respond to anger....I am finished on this topic..But I will say, if you are a parent..which I am, and you knew there was a product available that would save the lives of your children, or better the quality of their lives, but some pompous Western country bullied you...that in my opinion is very very wrong..thank goodness there are people who had the spine and guts to fight back.. against alarmist , biased science...Thanks to these people thousands of Mothers are not seeing their babies ravished by malaria...

  6. nightshirt

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Fri Apr 6 2007 9:14:41
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    i agree. ddt would not be used as it were in the past - spraying wildernesses. this would be in home use, contained and controlled.

  7. BeenBedBugged

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Fri Apr 6 2007 12:17:00
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    Hey Bugalina,

    Calm down, no one is angry. I'm sorry it makes you so upset when others don't accept what you say at face value. Just pointing out that you claim to respond with substantial linkage, and all I see is one article, published by the arm of "Youth for Lyndon LaRouche".

    Now, just a reminder that I and everyone else here respect the good work you've done. You've helped probably hundreds of people who post and lurk here and at the yahoo board.

    But I'm afraid we have to disagree on this. I hope you don't think I'm angry at you, because I'm not. When people ask you to back up your assertions, this does not come from anger, but from a desire to have an honest, productive discussion.

    The work that is being done here by everyone on this blog is centered around trying to find the truth about how to best deal with bed bugs. That requires proof and examination of what is available in the existing literature.

    I'd like to point out that the article you site is published by followers of Lyndon Larouche, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche . No comment, just know who your sources are.

  8. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Fri Apr 6 2007 12:58:06
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    Hey BBB and B,

    I love both of you guys, and I am on the side of both swift eradication of bed bugs, and helping the environment.

    I am on the fence on this one, but have to throw my 2 cents in briefly. Rachel Carson was not evil and she was coming from a good place. Millions of people died from Malaria in Africa while DDT was out of service. I have read the allegations that mosquitos were showing resistance (and bed bugs too), but suspect, since they're now using DDT again in Africa for mosquitos, that there may be some success with that bug.

    IF bed bugs are resistant, which I think could use some testing, since I don't think it was explored thoroughly (but would welcome evidence to the contrary). And I mean controlled testing, not just legalization. We need to know if it works on bed bugs, now, or doesn't work, or makes them worse as some say.

    Lyndon LaRouche, who Bugalina quoted, is not so credible.

    Unfortunately, neither is at least one of BeenBedBugged's sources: awitness.org is the website of Brent Herbert, who has written extensively on Indymedia about how bed bugs are completely pesticide resistant, arguing that if you protect your bed, they will completely stop biting you and leave your home, even a multi-unit dwelling, for your neighbors. He denies any effectiveness whatsoever in ANY pesticide, and as such, has misled a lot of his readers. He also has no objective evidence for his theory, and I have serious doubts as to the truth of his claims of how he got rid of bed bugs (or indeed that he did). I know BeenBedBugged would agree with me about that.

    God help the neighbors of people who follow such advice, because their bed bugs WILL get worse, but not because they "leave" Brent's home. (Perhaps Herbert levitates instead of walking and does not sit down, but others have found if you protect your bed, your bed bugs hang around and aggressively try to bite you elsewhere in the home.) And they will breed and spread elsewhere.

    That's all by way of saying that I don't see many credible sources on DDT good or DDT bad. I do believe that DDT WAS bad the way it was being used (ie sprayed on everything, everywhere, all the time). IF (and this needs testing) it did kill bed bugs, and IF it could be safely used indoors without harm to people, pets, or the environment, then perhaps it would actually be helpful. I can't believe that 4 months of other bed bug pesticides are safe to us or the environment either. Not to mention people who have to treat repeatedly for a long time.

    I think everyone should check out the article from the huffington post that BeenBedBugged cites, which says,

    "Rachel Carson wrote in her 1962 book Silent Spring that DDT and other pesticides should be used as little as possible, and that chemical pesticides could be helpful but should be employed responsibly. She urged a ban on agricultural use of DDT. She was right to do so. DDT may have gotten a worse rep than it deserved, but that might have had the effect of prolonging its usefulness. DDT use in agriculture is known to be a leading factor in increasing mosquito resistance. So is any widespread outdoor spraying of the chemical. That's why, regardless of rhetorical stance, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ADVOCATES WIDESPREAD OUTDOOR USE OF DDT anymore."

    (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-dorchen/astroturf-and-ddt-liber_b_30800.html)

    Anyway count mine as a vote for "more information needed on effectiveness AND safety (including safety to people, animals, and environment)." "As little as possible" seems like a good idea, and it was not the mindset of those using DDT in the 40s-60s.

    More DDT articles on my del.icio.us site:
    http://del.icio.us/bedbugger/ddt

  9. BeenBedBugged

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Fri Apr 6 2007 13:45:22
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    Hey NBOM-

    Great input, and I will give you a Larouche in exchange for a Herbert. I'm glad you pointed that out, because I did not realize that Herbert was the same guy. Hmmmm...

    I totally agree that more research is needed on the subject, and I am wide open to learning the results. And I will further clarify my position on DDT vs Bedbugs. IF DDT were found to be effective for LIMITED indoor use by CERTIFIED, REGISTERED, BONDED, etc., etc., etc., individuals to treat bedbugs, I would support it, particularly if by that time (since the process would surely take years) no effective alternative were found. However, I seriously doubt that DDT will ever be used again in this country, and I encourage all bedbug warriors to continue to seek the most effective treatments without wasting time wishing for something that will never happen, and wasting energy flailing around and keening about Rachel Carson being a murderer.

    And Bugalina, I'll make a deal with you- I promise to eat a teaspoon of DDT sprinkled on my ice cream if it's ever made legal for even limited use in this country. Why? Because it is true that DDT has few acute human toxicity problems. It's the harm to the environment, the lasting damage, which we are still experiencing, that is the problem. In eating that DDT, I will be adding to the DDT already present in my fat cells, the same DDT that is present in yours, NBOM's and everyone else reading this blog. That is the problem with DDT. The thing that makes it great (long persistence) is the thing that makes it a big problem.

    The best approach, we would all agree, is a full-on assault using all of our available weapons- the vacuum (my bestest friend), thorough inspection, isolating the bed, regular treatments by qualified PCOs, etc. When used properly, especially indoors, no matter what the pesticide, there ought to be little migration into the environment.

    So, we are not so far apart- I just don't like to see myths promulgated. The treatment for malaria-carrying mosquitoes includes DDT or any insecticide as only part of an effective control program. Improved sanitation, drainage, use of bed nets, Bt (a VERY effective biological control), use of malaria-preventing medications, early medical treatment, especially for cerebral malaria, etc. are all part of the arsenal. If the governments of each of those countries affected by malaria-carrying mosquitoes were using their own full arsenal, many, many deaths could have been prevented. This cannot all be laid conveniently and neatly at the doorstep of the environmental movement, nor Rachel Carson. In our desperation, let's avoid being used as pawns in a political game being played by massive corporations for their own material benefit, not our salvation.

  10. wantmyskinback

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Sun Apr 8 2007 13:49:23
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    DDT is not the only thing that is present in our fat cells, BBB. There are so many toxins we are exposed to in this country. From Asbestos to Second Hand Smoke to Fromaldehyde to Saccharin and at one point there was paranoia over the radio waves from cell phones giving us brain tumors. Joe Jackson once sang "Everything Gives you Cancer"...and as Lou Sorkin reported (I believe), even drinking too much water can be lethal. Like you, I too wish the world would be more ecologically safe, and I consider myself to be somewhat "Green" and would like to add my "green" to my children's future. But, I think DDT should be brought back, and used by a licensed PCO properly indoors would be a fine addition to the current pesticides. Since it really hasn't been used in this country for 40 years or so, how do we know "our" bed bugs are immune or resistant to it?

  11. wantmyskinback

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Sun Apr 8 2007 13:52:39
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    30 years or so.

  12. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Sun Apr 8 2007 16:54:15
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    Something we can probably all agree on is that having bed bugs makes you FEEL like getting some DDT and blanketing the city with it.

    (Need for research aside, I am sure almost everyone had the urge.)

  13. Edgie

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Wed Apr 11 2007 3:12:00
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    From what I understand, when DDT was used initially, it was overused. Crops and produce were infused with it. Whole cities were dusted with it. Also, during a very green time, when many people were questioning the use or overuse of chemicles, the Silent Spring came about. Too much use can oviously cause problems. The stuff I read about the science involved in the Silent Spring was seriously questionable. Anywayway, I do think that the idea of bring back DDT should be considered. The possibility of resistance, I don't get it-the pesticide hasn't been used in 40 years or so, are the bugs are resistent to DDT? or all the mild stuff we have been using just isn't working, so it must be used every 2 weeks, (which is a plan, if that is all there is). And I will do that plan, and all the complications-neverending washing, bagging, worrying, ect. BUT, I must say that if I had to drink a bottle DDT, I would, to go back to a regular life without the bugs. Edgie

  14. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Wed Apr 11 2007 9:38:07
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    Hello All,

    DDT is NOT the answer to bed bugs. Period. The sooner the media stops blaming the resurgence of bed bugs on DDT the better. Just one more example of false facts.

    DDT is dangerous. Not just in agricultural use, but structurally as well. It has a VERY long residual meaning prolonged exposure to home owners and pets. It does build up in fat tissues and has long term health effects. It was shown that bed bugs developed resistance to it, but by now current strains are likely susceptible once again.

    Here are the facts (why bed bugs are back):

    1) In most developed nations it is illegal to do preventative pest control.

    2) Cockroach treatment switched from broadcast spraying and dusting cracks and crevices to gel bait.

    3) The sale of used mattresses and furniture is not well regulated. There are just too many retailers and not enough inspectors.

    If you want to argue that DDT is beneficial to third world nations where malaria is present I will once again disagree. Yes it works. Is it the best alternative? NO. There are plenty of larvacides or pesticides that could be used that are MUCH safer for the people, the indigenous species and the land. The problem is that these safer solutions are more expensive.

    If you want to blame anyone for the mass deaths attributed to malaria blame the governments that exploit their people and ignore the problems at hand. There have been MANY solutions available since the ban of DDT but the people's lives were just not that important ... money was.

    Sincerely,

    Sean
    Entomologist / Pest Professional

  15. Bugalina

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Wed Apr 11 2007 11:23:43
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    Sean I don't want to get into this, as there are sentiments, valid for and against..DDT.I personally do not take the stance that DDT is anymore dangerous than the neuro toxins that are used now, of course only if used responsibly..that said .. It is fact, not supposition, that thousands and thousands of lives are being saved by the use of DDT. It is not fact that thousands and thousands of people have died from DDT exposure...maybe opinion but not fact. You say there "are many solutions available since the ban of DDT", having researched about the other methods used to kill malaria mosquitos none have proven to be as effective as DDT, however I would like to know what solutions you are talking about, and their proven effectiveness...if you have any actual numbers on the solutions you speak of and the actual numbers of lives saved, I would like to know about them. Once again , I can only say that I grew up when DDT was used extensively. I think I am older than you are..and baby boomers now enjoy the longest life span ever....There are so many toxic things in the world...unfortunately...but we must consider all aspects taken on the basis of fact. I do not want any name calling, such being called "irresponsible" etc....only different opinions...of which we should all respect the opinions of others and if we want to make a supposition, we should be able to back it up with fact. This is why I am sincerely interested in the proven solutions you speak of...bed nets are minimally helpful from the research I have seen. I don't think there are vaccines?? ..I traveled into the Amazon in the 1970's and I remember taking some large Malaria pills ... I think this "Suspend" and the other neuro-toxins we are being exposed to now...can't be good, having to use them at least 6 times or more, to maybe get rid of bed bugs.....I feel that Poor people shouldn't have to suffer at the hands of Western suppositions. If I were in a malaria stricken region of Africa...I would be very happy that they reintroduced DDT. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago and ran behind the DDT fogger trucks all my childhood...our alleyways and Parks were sprayed on a regular basis...Do I wish the world was perfect..yes...Do I wish NYC was once again filled with beautiful trees and wildlife and crystal blue waters , yes...do I think pesticides are a necessary evil..yes...unfortunately......Would I personally use DDT if it were available, yes...I would like the option for it to be available- of course never imposing my will on others. I think there are far more serious health concerns than DDT. The air in NYC alone is filled with pollutants.....having to make multiple applications of expensive pesticides to achieve the death of a bed bug seems to put pest control out of reach for poorer people...Just because DDT is cheaper doesn't make it bad..I have big concerns about the money being made now off this bed bug epidemic. Some businesses are realizing hefty profits, and this could taint an easier solution to killing off bed bugs. I hope you can supply me with the information of the other solutions, ones that acheive the same effect and save the same numbers of lives....

  16. Bugalina

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Wed Apr 11 2007 13:01:57
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    PS...I don't think anyone can say for certain why bed bugs have made such a resurgance. There is a lot of speculation,, but no scientific, definitive proof..only theories..everything you list is only theoretical. I have my opinions on why, but I prefer to keep them to myself...

  17. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Wed Apr 11 2007 18:14:07
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    Hello Bugalina,

    The pesticides used today in N.A. (well most) do not build up in fat tissues and do not biomagnify. They are toxic, and they are dangerous if not used correctly, but the danger of its use is much less than it is with Organochlorines such as DDT.

    Habitat modification is by far the best approach but again takes resources and money. Here is an excerpt from a paper;

    <blockquote>Integrated packages of multiple malaria control interventions, relying heavily on environmental management, proved particularly successful in the copper mining regions of Zambia, even before the advent of DDT or chloroquine. Environmental management has also been successfully applied in African cities, notably Dar es Salaam in Tanzania, and may have an important role to play in protecting the rapidly growing urban population of Africa from malaria.</blockquote>

    References:

    Utzinger J, Tozan Y, Singer BH, 2001. Efficacy and cost effectiveness of environmental management for malaria control. Trop Med Int Health 6: 677–687.[ISI][Medline]

    Bang YH, Sabuni IB, Tonn RJ, 1975. Integrated control of urban mosquitoes in Dar es Salaam using community sanitation supplemented by larviciding. East Afr Med J 52: 578–588.[ISI][Medline]

    Castro MC, Yamagata Y, Mtasiwa D, Tanner M, Utzinger J, Keiser J, Singer BH, 2004. Integrated urban malaria control: a case study in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Am J Trop Med Hyg 71 (Suppl 2): 103–117.

    Mosquito growth inhibitors and larvacides are very effective, and much safer than DDT. Trouble is that they cost more. Here are some products or methods that are in use in other areas of the world:

    http://www.sumivector.com/content/view/16/36/

    http://www.co.san-diego.ca.us/deh/chd/wnv/pdf/aerialapp_webpage.pdf

    http://www.ehponline.org/docs/1998/106-4/forum.html#last

    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3429686

    http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/206/21/3869

    http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/full/71/2_suppl/87

    http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-5385-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html

    These programs and products have been successful in S.A. but have not yet been widely implemented in Africa.

    Once again, I completely agree that there are thousands of people worldwide needlessly dieing as a result of malaria vectored by mosquitoes.

    As with most things political it comes down to money.

  18. BeenBedBugged

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 12 2007 0:33:41
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    Thank you for taking the time to post all of those links, Sean.

    I agree with you that the sooner the media stops blaming the bed bug epidemic on the banning of DDT, the better.

    The saddest thing about that trend in the mainstream media is the implication that nothing but DDT will solve these problems. You have shown in your post that this is not the truth.

    Like mosquito and other vector control, bed bug control requires a multi-pronged approach to be successful. I worry that people will give up and just try to live with bed bugs because they think nothing but DDT will resolve their problem.

    You, and your work, represent the new approach to bed bug eradication. Emerging technologies are the answer to this problem, not DDT. I long for everyone affected by the bed bug epidemic to get on the bandwagon to develop the best possible treatment program, instead of wasting time longing for DDT. It just ain't gonna happen, and we have better things to do with our time.

    Having said that, I am very sympathetic to the desperation a bed bug infestation can cause, and understand that anything that looks like an easy answer will seem like the only answer to some. This blog is an antidote to that, and the support given by every single poster on this thread to the others who come here makes a huge difference in people's lives. Good work is being done here, and no matter what the differences of opinion about DDT, we can all agree on that.

  19. willow-the-wisp

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 12 2007 4:43:41
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    Sean, thanks so much! If and when you get a chance—if you haven’t done so elsewhere already--let us know about current or upcoming studies, especially those regarding the temperate females rendered infertile when traumatically inseminated by the tropical males—Please! It’s one of the great Achilles Heels What was it I read? Parts of Southwest Asia are virtually bed bug free because of this sub-species overlap-intra-breeding?
    I'd also love to, as I gather would many here--hear your thoughts and/or get links to any such studies.
    Are they yet trying to lab-breed the tropical’s with increased tolerances to more temperate climates? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part. I don’t know ... Look at what they’ve done to the chicken—with genetic engineering. Genetics coupled with lab breeding technologies, well …who knows … maybe it could be done. The question is will it be done?

    Ultimately government funding will have to arise for all types of research along those lines—I hope, and whether done out of love of the people, or out of simple cost effectiveness is a sad question indeed to want to ask or to have to answer.

    To say Public Health has already let it get way out of hand is total understatement.

    Thanks again Sean

  20. Bugalina

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    Posted 12 years ago
    Thu Apr 12 2007 19:32:15
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    http://malaria.who.int/docs/KochiIRSSpeech15Sep06.pdf
    Here is a good article ..from the horse's mouth......again....not imposing my beliefs on anyone else...I would purchase DDT tomorrow, in a heartbeat to treat bed bugs. Do I think that the neuro toxic pesticides that are being applied at the present time, in mulitple applications, are any better...absolutely not....only time will tell us what there toxicity legacy will be...

  21. BeenBedBugged

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    Fri Apr 13 2007 0:52:38
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    This begs the question- do bed bugs carry malaria? If not (we know they do not), should we apply the same protocols to bedbugs as we might to control a vector of a deadly disease?

    There are so many differences between mosquitoes and bed bugs. If bed bugs were proven to TRANSMIT a deadly disease, this citation would be relevant.

  22. Bugalina

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    Fri Apr 13 2007 7:06:12
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    Are you suggesting censorship...once again ???

  23. wantmyskinback

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    Fri Apr 13 2007 9:43:37
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    I think what Bugalina was trying to prove was that DDT has saved lives. Period. Not that Mosquitos and Bed Bugs are similar. I think that we can easily add this pesticide to our regime and I don't understand why, after 35 years that we don't. So, it's in our fat cells, then what? Has any human died from having it in our fat cells?

  24. Bugalina

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    Fri Apr 13 2007 10:30:25
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    Wantmyskinback... human death has not been attributed to DDT....however millions of lives have been saved through its use, its a no brainer....and I would guess that living in NYC and LosAngeles can't be good for our fat cells either....And you are correct...by discussing DDT I am trying to make a point that it was given a very bad name, because of misuse. It has its place..People freak out when the word DDT is mentioned..without really knowing its value. I think much of what we hear is alarmist. Even this talk of a Super Bug...if bed bugs were going to evolve into a super bug...why didn't it happen in the forties and fifties. I wish everyone could have been privy to my conversation with MR.Harold Stein, the elderstateman of Crane Pest Control...He applied DDT all throughout the years it was legal...and he said it was "the cheapest, most effective pesticide"...he is living well into his golden years, telling me how much he enjoys his granddaughter....that's all I am trying to say...and I think I should have the right to say it....if anyone doesn't want to read my posts..then don't click on them..

  25. BeenBedBugged

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    Fri Apr 13 2007 23:13:15
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    Oh for heaven's sake! Bugalina, if you can't get everyone to agree with every word you say about DDT, they become the enemy. Please, realize that this is an open discussion, and to question the relevance of a citation is not a call for "censorship". And, by the way, I never called for censorship. I simply asked you to stop making personal attacks, accusing me of being a "fake" bedbug sufferer. Honestly. I know this whole experience has been traumatic for you, but get a grip.

  26. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 0:20:22
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    Sean has some good thoughts and options, too, but I feel in my heart that Bugalina is probably correct about DDT. The countries in Africa at that time were quite desperate to cut populations. I have no citations to back it up: what I have is stuff like: memories of the TV ads back east talking about all of the starving children in Biafra circa 1974 ... What I have is: ...look at what they say the government did with Agent Orange in the NYC subways … look at the hidden Japanese Concentration camps in the US during WWII. Watergate cover-ups ... Pedophile priests ... cover ups ... We really need more outspoken people like Bugalina In this world”

    And BIB: If an HIV + person were sleeping with an HIV-person in the same bed …
    Scenario: Say a bed bug bit the HIV+ person then that person moved … What’s to stop the bug from rushing over to the other side of the bed to escape being crushed, and then biting the other, HIV- sleeping partner for it’s lunch+dinner?.
    And that same scenario applies to Hep-C and to many of the other blood borne pathogens, which, include 1/3 (a guess) of all Bacterium,
    The above scenario it is quite conceivable, but the media NEVER say’s “they may possibly transmit diseases but that has not, as of yet, been reported. Rather, the Media say's “They carry 53 pathogenic substances but have not been known to, nor are they likely to spread diseases.” There is a big difference in how you word that sentence—Now that’s real censorship and likely somehow enforced, so that awareness will not ever really happen to raise rightfully justified deep public concerns.
    It is Governmental control at its finest, I’d say.
    And just look at all that pooh! Tell me that’s not full of germs! That certainly can’t be clean stuff! These bugs travel from room to room out here, especially in the smaller older hotel rooms. So it’s Yellow Journalism at its finest, re the harmless little sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite.
    I’d like to see an article giving likely conceivable scenarios like mine above being printed but I doubt it will happen. The SF Chronicle was a little better, but it all has such a sedate quality to it. Who do the newspapers answer to again? I thought it was the public, but I gave that thought up 25 years ago at 24 years of age.

  27. wantmyskinback

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 0:36:23
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    Bugalina does have her points, and I don't totally agree with her, However, if DDT were legal, or if we could get some and use it without GUILT or fear, we would AT LEAST KNOW IF OUR ARGUEMENT ABOUT WHAT KILLS BED BUGS is justified !!!! I think you are brilliant, Been Bed Bugged, but I don't understand why you have to argue with Bugalina. We are ALL SUFFERING this problem...... and it's getting worse... can YOU predict what the government will utlimately do? Look, we live in a strange time, suddenly we have RADIO PERSONALITIES being fired (rightly so, but it's amazing that it actually happened, this is huge).... and now we have these ANCIENT critters thrust upon us, in our very sleek modern world. THEY DON'T FIT. OKAY???? And by dusting and vacuuming, and whole families who make a decent living or who don't for that matter, all living in the same room.... WELL GUESS WHAT??? This ain't the [expletive deleted] 21st century !!!!! This IS NOT SuPPOSED TO HAPPEN...So yeah, Bugalina has to get a grip, but so should YOU..... We are allowed to express ourselves, it's all we have left. And by the way, we live in a sleek modern time, but some of us choose to be hippies, by that, I mean, we CHOOSE TO GO AGAINST THE TIMES... that's fine... that's cool...and I'm not at all saying this in any judgemental way... I for one...LOVE having grown up in the 60's BUT....hear this... if you want to go back in time, and ALLOW BED BUGS TO BE PART OF LIFE, then so be it. Then give up your computer and your water filter, and be totally PURIST..... think about it. It's hypocritical to be so against something like DDT, or any thing for that matter.....if you are also reaping the benefits of our very sleek modern life here in the usa..... thoughts?????????????

  28. wantmyskinback

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 0:43:08
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    Did I say "sleek modern life" like 3 times? no 4 times.... !!!! You get my drift. It's late at night.

  29. Nobugsonme

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 2:04:19
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    Way back, days ago, BeenBedBugged said:

    "I totally agree that more research is needed on the subject, and I am wide open to learning the results. And I will further clarify my position on DDT vs Bedbugs. IF DDT were found to be effective for LIMITED indoor use by CERTIFIED, REGISTERED, BONDED, etc., etc., etc., individuals to treat bedbugs, I would support it, particularly if by that time (since the process would surely take years) no effective alternative were found."

    So I don't think the viewpoints of anyone in this conversation are wildly different.

    If the question is whether DDT _still_ works against bed bugs (which is a valid question, since others have pointed out there was some resistance seen in bed bugs to DDT when it was last legal. If they're right or if they're wrong, let a lab prove it.

    I'd qualify BBB's statement, personally, and say, let's get a move on and not have it take any longer than it needs to.

    I'm sure Bugalina would also agree that "limited indoor use by trained individuals" would be sufficient for our purposes-- our shared goal, if you will: bed bug -free living.

    WMSB wisely reminds us we're all part of the same struggle, and looking back at the words spoken earlier in this topic emphasize our ideas about solving the problem are not far off.

    But Willow-- I get you on the WW2-era US Japanese-American Internment Camps (shameful), and governments worldwide have harmed their own people in so many ways, directly and by "turning a blind eye."

    On the other hand, Agent Orange in the NYC subways? When did that happen?

    Oh and tell us where you read about the bed bug interbreeding... I don't know about that!

    Thanks!

    (oh, and let's everyone keep it civil, like WMSB says, and agree to politely disagree. That's not censorship, it helps people listen to your points more willingly!)

  30. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 2:14:43
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    civil??? wtf?

  31. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 6:50:18
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    No Bugs..I cannot find any post in which I had an uncivil angry tone......I don't get angry when someone doesn't agree with me...I just state very calmly that no one can change my mind about DDT unless they are a proven, respected scientist with factual data which concretely links DDT to human deaths. I will not kowtow to emotional data... Also Willow you bring up an excellent point...it is proven that bed bug excrement carries disease..if a diseased peice of excrement gets into the eyes of a child and they rub it in....serious health consequences can arise..The media never ever mentions this...NoBugs I believe you set these forums up so that we could share ideas,. On the Yahoo group, censorship arose when someone complained about the freedom of being able to discuss DDT. I believe that it is important that we exercise free speech...no where in any of my posts have I implied any name calling or been uncivil..I abhor the idea of suggesting censorship " we have better things to do with our time". (bbb)...by saying this are WE speaking for everyone on this forum ?? I think people should be allowed to think for themselves..censorship suggestions can be very subtle and covert.....I simply state what I believe in....take it or leave it...I should not be targeted because someone has carried a grudge over from the Yahoo group...this is not my problem..I just want to share my opinions without any anger...only opinion.. And please this is a bed bug forum and DDT is a pesticide, thus it is relevant...I don't think DDT is going to be brought back...but "hope springs eternal" It was brought back in Africa...If its good enough for them to use, it should be good enough for us.. And, I did use a PCO...and I did pay thousands out of pocket for it and I still got bit ..so I would love to see a better product on the market that doesn't require a gazillion sprays with "maybe" results...and something that doesn't cost $400.00 a room...And I also would like to say that I did get some DDT from a friend who worked for Dow Chemical and it did kill the 4 bed bugs I had in a jar...remember my experiment...I was told by an entomologist that one little experiment like this could not be taken too seriously...I agree...but it did kill them...

  32. thebedbugresource

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 9:45:11
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    Hello All,

    I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that DDT will kill bed bugs within hours of contact.

    I can also tell you that Tempo, Demand, etc. will kill bed bugs within hours of contact.

    The problem with bed bugs at the moment is not the products available to pest control operators, it is how they apply them.

    If DDT were suddenly back in our arsenal we would still have ill trained technicians in the field that are inexperienced with bed bugs.

    There are two struggles with bed bugs besides inexperience that play a huge factor in the failure rate of bed bug control:

    1) As pest control operators we can not do preventative treatments, it is illegal (in most areas). If we could, hotels would be lined up to have it done and every room in every major city would be sprayed. If a bed bug or two were introduced via a traveler to the treated room it would seek harbourage, come in contact with the pesticide and die.

    As it is now we have to wait until there is evidence, and usually by then the population has reached large numbers making it much more difficult to solve.

    2) There is no effective legal treatment of odds and ends. How exactly do you treat books, shoes, computers, etc. that pesticides will damage?

    DDT will not be able to address either of these things so whether or not it kills bed bugs is moot.

    -------------------------------------------------

    To address the question of disease transfer, here is what we know:

    a) Bed bugs do harbour pathogens.
    b) Bed bugs are physically capable of transferring disease. Their mouth parts are very similar to a mosquito.
    c) For some reason in all the testing that has been performed bed bugs can not transfer disease from one host to another. We think this may have something to do with the composition of their saliva. The bottom line is we do not know why it does not happen, just that it doesn't.

    I am a biologist and I can tell you with absolute certainty that living things adapt to their given environments, mutations occur, and very few remain constant over the course of time. It is my opinion that at some point we will see disease transfer via bed bug bites or feces. It might be in a few months, a few years, or in a century, but the possibility exists.

    Heck it was only a few years ago that we were told that mosquitoes could not transfer West Nile in North America.

  33. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 10:07:14
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    I think that it is the feces that is of most concern.and I think how horrible it will be when a death is attributed to bed bugs or their feces....but let me ask you...I know that odds and ends cannot be treated but I have to believe, for sanity's sake, that bed bugs can and will be once again eradicated ( for the most part) from our Country.....I have to hold onto this hope...It happened before..Its just so hard for me to accept that a f--king bug can be so ruinous !@! So costly to get rid of !! forgive the pejorative...life is so short..we struggle so much, all of us, so we deserve a little pleasure. My pleasure was always my Son having his friends over...I would be so happy when I would wake up and there were 5 boys sleeping on the couches and floor...NOW FORGET ABOUT IT...my pleasure was to visit my Son at college and stay in a hotel where someone else was making the bed..it was my downtime..NOW FORGET ABOUT IT.....I am not asking for much.....anyday I could get a fatal illness..I know that..but vampire bugs are just a horrible horrible thing...and I am having a very hard time accepting the reality that our science technology cannot give us a cure...esp. when there was a time when they were pretty much eradicated..If then , how come not now ????

  34. wantmyskinback

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 10:09:56
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    I haven't much time, and I just want to apologize for my drunkenness last night (I actually went out and had an unabashed GOOD time). But I still feel how I did when I wrote what I did...but with a hangover.
    West Nile kills people. So the government here in NYC sprayed the entire area with something, I don't know, but they announced it many times and told people to try and stay indoors on those days. Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg won't take BB's seriously because no one dies from them (directly). And that's all I have to say "write" now.

  35. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 12:46:45
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    It is un-CIVIL-sized and not just the "civic" duty to pass on the word about bed bugs! That is what I really meant last night when I posted--civil! wtf!
    (BTW WMSB--I was sober, but exhausted, so I just threw that last remark up on the forum, before I very gingerly got onto a futon that looks more like the remnants of a war zone.)

    It is the Government’s responsibility, this is what I meant, more than anything rude about the chat in this room, but; I'm glad I posted it! brought up some free speech stuff--and it also unfortunately brought up this:

    I know a guy we'll call him "Dave." I see Dave about once a month in passing. He is very indigent and is usually shunned; even by people I know who "claim" to be very caring individuals:

    This is how my last three encounters went with Dave:

    1--In late December 2006: We passed... "Dave" asked me for a smoke and that was that.

    2--In Mid-February 2007: We passed ... "Hey Dave", I asked, as I handed him the usual cigarette; "is every thing O.K.?" "No," he said in a pained voice, "look at my back it's from the GD bed bugs!" He pulled down the shirt collar and what I saw I can only describe to you as what looked like, and immediately brought into mind; "RAW MEAT HANGING ON A HOOK IN A BUTCHERSHOP."
    I am totally not exaggerating here! Not one iota!
    I gave "Dave a few cigarettes and a buck, if I recall correctly.

    3--Two days ago I saw Dave sitting, leaning on a US postal drop-box: I felt compelled to sit and try to open up a brief exchange about his bed bug situation, especially because between the second and third time I'd run into him--I discovered 100's of the BB vampires hidden all along the seam of my futon."

    When I asked Dave about his bed bug problem he said; " they shaved my head threw away all my clothes and moved me into another room in the hotel."

    So ... Poor. poor Dave ... in a few months he will, no doubt, have the 21st century plague again, and then again, and again and again! A guess only--but a very likely and a very sad scenario.

    I also know a woman who just really doesn't understand the insidiousness of how the bb's--spread. Unfortunately I had her up in my hotel room a few times to talk: I had no idea she had bed bugs! She only told me this later--in passing, on the street. I saw her four days ago and she is moving for something like the 4th time in about a year--to get away from the bed bugs.She is in denial and just can't conceive of the insidiousness of how they spread when I bring that topic up.

    So no ... this is not the 21'st century!

    It is more like the 14th century! I just did a "smidge" of research now, on "THE BLACK PLAGUE" I had never known before now that; The Black Plague" had seemingly returned many times over and lasted upwards of two centuries, killing an estimated 1/3 up to almost 1/2 of the total European Population.

    So No ... we are not living in 2007 this is 1407--I'm so sorry to tell you all--we are all thinking we are living in the wrong century. I'm sure it's the 1500's just ask any local politician what time it is, and if they are frank about it,they will tell you
    "We are living in the dark and in the middle ages, that he is in the castle and thsat you are a surf on your own--and to paay your tax and then get out of my face."
    Now that is an exaggeration--but not by much. Anyone with a bed bug problem who has come out of their "futile" denial would most likely agree!

    The Government seems to like it that way otherwise they would do more that the few band-aid cures they have only half-assed done so far ... My opinion and sad observations so far.

    Why would SF hire people to clean up the streets and offer them very nice looking Navy blue-white striped cotton outfits--when these people are (likely unwittingly) being paid sub-standard wages to clean up stuff that is mostly bed bug infested garbage? To be fair I've seen some other SF crews who look a little more protected wearing plastic-like cover-alls and gloves--but the gloves are material not plastic.
    I began de-cluttering before I knew I had the bugs--out of frear, not of the bugs but of the silly minded fear breeding upcoming inspections in my hotel. A lot of what I got rid of, I had no choice but to leave on the curb--mostly plastic shelving, and I hope I had not unwittingly added even ne bed bug to the growing population--but of that I'm not so sure.
    And there are lots of "DAVES" out there and through no fault of their own they are unwillingly not only being treated like feudal servants they are also unwittingly helping the bed bug vector expand--and the bed bug vector expands on people like Dave's unneeded and very sad personal miseries!"
    That is not only inhumame--it just isn't cost effective.
    Again I say--Civil? wtf!
    All the above are my unfortunate and humble observations and my sad thoughts.

  36. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 14:58:09
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    Willow...How can I even respond....Every human being should be able to get into a bed or a bunk or a sleeping bag or whatever, and not have their body ravaged by bed bugs. It is very easy for those with financial means to preach to those without. I grew up in a "financially challenged" family. I went without a lot of material things that others had, but...but ..I never had to get into a bed that had blood suckers waiting for me. I grew up in the 50's on the South Side of Chicago....immigrant neighbors galore...my Mother, G-d rest her soul, was a decent woman, but a lousy housekeeper...I had lots of relatives and friends, and I never heard of a bed bug NEVER!!! My sister got pregnant and my parents "disowned" her, because she refused to abort...She raised her daughter in the what was then called the "Projects"...a single Mom...I stayed over in her apt many times..I NEVER heard of a BED BUG from her or any of her neighbors....( ps..her daughter , my neice, is now a Cardiologist who is married to a Medical Research Scientist at a Ivy League University..I am very proud of her.)..although they were poor, and struggled they never had to deal with bed bugs...So why are we going BACKWARDS !!! Poor people cannot afford $400.00 a room...I keep repeating this amount because I don't think people are absorbing how utterly ridiculous this is $400.00 A ROOM..to exterminate a bed bug !..so the house we had to treat cost us $3400. Actually I just realized...they charged me even more than that..because it was a small capecod with 4 small bedrooms a very small ktichen two baths and a combo living room dining area...yikes I just realized this..I had to mildly threaten them in order to get them back for a second spray...How the hell can poor people afford to kill bed bugs if this is the what is being allowed to happen !!! So, if I got them again I should just fork out another 4000 dollars !! Ludicrous....We need a chemical that can work effectively and get the job done...period..I don't care if you call it ABC Or PPP....I am having a rough time accepting the indifference to this from people who should be taking action...When I spoke to Mayor Bloomberg that day...the elitist tone of his voice still hangs in my head..
    "Oh" he said, " I believe its just a matter of putting down a few chemicals"....then as they cut me off he was telling me not to pick up any used furniture off the street !! OH MY G_D....I had just thrown out a two thousand dollar mattress !! and a thousand dollars worth of down pillows !! and he's telling me that if I didn't pick up used things from the curb this might not have happened...Oh woe is me....Who can I vote for !!

  37. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 16:51:13
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    Thanks Bugalina. I read everything you write and have learnt an awful lot about an awful thing--the let run wild and unchecked ugly bug--The Cimex lecturalius or the common bed bug. There is nothing good about that creature whatsoever,and it should have been dismantled limb by limb at least three years ago when its growth population really started to take off.

    BUT I HATED "RIPPING A NEW ONE" FOR SOME OF THE FOLKS IN FLORIDA in my posts about how they should not ever use Pool grade DE.

    But, for 9 out of every 10 people (as far as I've seen) there just seems to be no other way! My 80 year old mom lives in SW Florida and I'm sure the retirement complex where she lives has a pool. They all have Pools--and so sure, why not advertise Pool Grade DE--
    The money grubbing bunch of capitalist jerks!
    The money grubbing bunch of capitalist jerks! (stet)!

    The lungs of an 80 year old, walker-assisted-only senior, with a mild to moderate case of emphysema, as it is with my Mom, would be catastrophic and it would likely have her bedridden a few years before her time, should; she ever become exposed to even the smallest amount of pool grade DE for any length of time at all.
    But she, as do many, seem to feel that some of us are a bit whacked for taking this very serious subject so very seriously. People, I think generally, are very much too attached to the childhood sayings "snug as a bug in a rug" and the other one which I am currently loath to repeat!
    The majority still need to wake up and smell the bed bug--before they will take it seriously. And that smell is enough to make you want to toss your cookies!
    For me now ... there may still be some bed bugs in my room but I got hip quick and did the very best I could do, with what I had to work with. It is that they--the bed bugs--will continue to hound me until they are eradicated from the building and from the city of San Francisco--and yes of course from the entire world!

  38. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 16:59:39
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    Oh yes Bugalina, I sent you a pm last week regarding an idea about yout POD--did you see it yet? I know you've been ballting this bug for a few years now --but sometimes an outside view might offer a fresh (and cheaper idea).
    Don't know that it would work but I have had some success gettig the nymphs to cross the de by using a ceramic heater. please read it when you have some time
    willow

  39. Nobugsonme

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 17:37:18
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    Bugalina,

    I challenge you to tell me where (above) I have directed any of my comments at you. I never named anyone specifically has having an uncivil tone. Please read my message again.

    I have nothing to do with the running of the Yahoo group, though I do understand Caitlin's wish to have it as a support-only space, where items of a political nature are not shared. That's not true here. But I do encourage everyone to express their opinions in a civil way, and try not to get caught up in attacking another argument to the point that you cannot hear the parts you agree on. I did not name anyone, though I do think your position and BeenBedBugged's are closer than you BOTH realize.

    I have never said anybody should not discuss any topics they like. Also, BeenbedBugged's comment about "better things to do with our time" is not censorship. It her her opinion. She cannot censor anyone here, but as I see it she did not try to.

    What I did say, however, was that I don't think your views or BBB's are that far apart, and I encouraged everyone (both of you in particular) to try and see where we all agree.

    That's all!

  40. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 17:45:04
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    I didn't get that post Willow.....As for the "snug as a bug in a rug"..that must be referring to a "carpet beetle"...Oh the things I have learned because of bbs....On a more serious note...Seniors are a whole other issue...Who is looking out for them..Several months ago there was a TV News episode about bed bugs infesting a Senior Residence somewhere near Boston...I cried when I watched it. They interviewed an elderly woman who said that her most comfortable recliner, the place in which she found her peace, had to be carted away...She said that her apt. was her peaceful refuge, until bed bugs hit...now she was sitting on a hard chair and sleeping on a most uncomfortable mattress that was all taped up...This woman had very little but the few comfortable things she did have were lost to bed bugs...She was very depressed...This was on the News...So ...what can I say...As for the pool grade DE, I totally agree, it should never be used...Listen..I would jump for joy if some brilliant scientist could come up with a mechanical killer, similiar to the Roach Motel...but its not happening soon enough...and these bastards breed like bunnies...Have you phoned the management of the retirement community ?? I know they probably wouldn't be completely honest with you but you could try...The good thing about retirement communitites is that people who live there don't generally do a lot of traveling...a small consolation....Does someone clean her room on a regular basis ? Its a very difficult situation Willow...

  41. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 20:40:07
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    NBOM--http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Cimex_lectularius.html

    a--
    This link above mentions that large areas of SE Asia are virtually bed bug free becase of interbreeding from the tropical male with the temperate female. This is not the link I recall seeing originally, so there may still be at least one more link out there tioo!
    b--
    0OK Agent orange may just be a fantasy ... but I had a friend that talked about it all the time, he was just SO CONVINCED! He died 12 years ago but I think it was Korean war era? or at least between 1948--1958???

  42. willow-the-wisp

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 21:01:32
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    Bugalina-HEY!

    I had made a suggestion in a private message that you might try heat on the furniture in the POD--but that's only if you DO did dedcide to go there all suited up to check on the state of the poor feather stuffed furniture. I had suggested hot watter bottles placed on top of white plastic bags. This would be placed on top of the cousion of say the chairs and the couch. Waite 15 minutes or so then bobard the area with a contact kill you'd feel comfortable with using on that fabric. Thake the contents to a better lit area and see if there are any bugs present. It's not at all a gaurentee, but it might be something to help you feel better about knoing for sure FIRST if they are infested--BEFORE bringing them home. And also it could be part of like an experiment to see just how attrected to heat they might be when starved for a blood meal--of course you'd both have to go in quickly and leave quickly--then renter quickly get the shoot down the water bottles and collect up any remains 9if any) and then get out fast. I'm saying fast becase your body heat might attract them to th suits and you will want to NOT let THAT happen if there are bugs in there.
    Had you treated the POD befre packing it, or was this before you becase so knowegable? I hope the former.
    Re my Mother, Typical 80 y.o. tough as an ox Irishwoman--she'd have no part of any of it, and I want to clarify, she lives in a retirement community of duplexes and then there islike a main lodge where the community center--basically a small dancehall where they play cards and do bingo and have holiday parties: there is nothing like a Nurse or anything. I'd call behind her back but there is like no way I could ever find the right number to call--I've never seen the place--but it's not a Nursing home.
    Thanks for that concern, she could care less, she's 80--and that's what's scarry about some Elderly ... they tend to just not want to make trouble. I know someone out there will fix the stories in florida--all it wull take is some hot-shot senior seeing our blog and then taking the advice of the paper and a lawsuit, thats all LOL
    I can't do spell check right now--I have a deadline I must catch; IHOPE THIS IS UNDERSTANABLE
    WILLOW

  43. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 21:32:06
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    Thank you Willow...The POD is complicated..its very large..and filled to the brim..I can't take any chances...I have to be as certain as I can be before I remove any thing from it...like S said..maybe leaving it for the entire year and a half is the answer...maybe..but because of my high anxiety and vivid imagination I keep thinking that a nearby POD could be heavily infested and the bugs could traverse to my POD because I have all this feather stuffed furniture which makes for a cozy thermal home...I did have my POD treated....that was another $1800.00 on top of the house extermination costs...they pump sprayed it with pyrthrerins..15 percent..but then I read that this type of treatment is relatively useless on fabric items...because the bugs will burrow in to get away from it.....Is it any wonder that I am seriously damaged from this....I don't know who to believe... as it stands now I am living with Home Depot stuff....and I really don't care...I just don't like having to pay the high monthly rental...more bed bug expense..it never ends...If your Mom isn't concerned then she is better off...At her age she wants to enjoy what little time she has on this earth..I could use a good game of escapist Bingo...

  44. Bugalina

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    Sat Apr 14 2007 23:28:54
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    Nobugs...I think there was a misunderstanding....I am grateful that you welcome free speech, ...point, counter point, is the best way to really learn about things...I absolutely positively know that you had nothing to do with the limitations that were put on the Yahoo Group..In fact, it was those limitations that inspired you to branch out...Thank goodness...that Yahoo Group, before it was limited, was a life saver for me...and I cannot thank you enough for starting this Blog...although I have a few very close friends, none of them has experienced this bug.....I am always grateful for the friends I have here on this Blog....and I am truly grateful to you for making this happen...you can always be assured of that...

  45. BeenBedBugged

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 0:02:37
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    This thread has gotten soooo far off topic...

    However, responding to a couple things. I agree, NBOM, that if both of us were to carefully read each other's postings, Bugalina and I would both realize that we are not so far apart, and indeed, I affirmed my support of limited indoor use of DDT, applied by licensed, regulated applicators. If handled correctly, the sources of introduction into the environment could be limited.

    However, that is probably never going to happen, and I reiterate that to long for something that will likely never become a reality is not a way that I would like to spend my time. I'd rather work toward a solution that we can use to help people now. This is not to say that the two are mutually exclusive, as evidenced by the many contributions made by Bugalina to this board. I guess I would feel better if I had ever heard the same kind of positive reinforcement from the other direction, but oh well. My skin was thick enough for bedbugs, it's thick enough for a bedbug message board.

    Sean (I think? Firefox cuts off everything after "thebedbu..." on that post) is accurate in his assessment of the effectiveness of Tempo, Demand, etc., as compared to DDT. It is not the pesticide itself that is the answer, it is how the pesticide is applied, and the ensuing treatment program.

    I completely agree that one of the basic and most beloved tenets of Integrated Pest Management no longer applies when it comes to bed bugs, and that is that prophylactic spraying is probably warranted in many situations. (Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, Sean, that's how I read your statement regarding preventative sprays at hotels, etc.)

    All this talk of DDT does not address a particularly puzzling phenomenon that has never been explained to any degree of satisfaction, and that is how bed bugs were so effectively (if incidentally) kept under control prior to the popularity of roach baits. I submit that it is the cessation of prophylactic roach spray programs that has led to the resurgence of bed bugs, not the lack of DDT on hotel baseboards. This phenomenon destroys the argument that DDT is the only solution to our problem. If it were, then why is it that bed bugs are only now making a resurgence? DDT was banned 30 years ago. We all know how fast they multiply.

    Finally, some of the arguments in favor of DDT remind me EXACTLY of the astroturf campaigns incited by a certain pesticide purveyor whose patent on a certain herbicide ran out a couple of years ago. Their new cash cow is genetically altered, herbicide-resistant crops, and they spend a massive amount of money on campaigns to train the public and their consumers to vehemently and aggressively talk down anyone who questions the long term environmental viability of their products. I have seen it many times in PCO conferences and seminars, as well as in teaching institutions. Maybe that is what disturbs me most about statements like the one made about Rachel Carson, who was an important founder of the environmental movement, and a human being for whom I have always had great admiration. It is disturbing to see her life's work attacked with such venom.

  46. willow-the-wisp

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 2:24:26
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    Sure ... off topic
    BTW--thanks Bugalina for the extra info re the POD. I hope you'll relax more knowing that it is unlikely, I think, for bed bugs from other pods to get up and move--really for no reason into your pod--it's not like bed bugs can actually sniff-out better feathers or better down at least not from so far away. As far as I know, thru one pod to another that's a lot of work for a lazy starving bed bug. I think the pyrethrums were probably a good thing to do in retrospect, provided you DO wait the full 18 months. Glad it was clarified for me Surly--wait it out, especially because it is packed so tight.
    I apologize if I ruined the “battle” for some others in here with a little humanistic concern. I thought this and all these threads had an over all concern for the peace and tranquility of humans in the environment.
    tea anyone?

  47. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 8:36:01
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    Thank you Willow..The POD is one of the open-ended problems that I have concerning bed bugs...I also have three storage units and I cringe when I visualize all the bed bug infested belongings that are being stored now in Public Storage units... when I get up enough nerve to confront going in to retrieve some of my stuff its going to be traumatic because I have no idea who is storing what , next to my units..and if there are bed bugs in a nearby unit then they can/will detect me and come a crawling.....On another point..I really do hope that the "powers that be" will come to their senses and recognize the need to bring back an effective pesticide that worked once, and will work again...Although bed bugs are common in many other countries, they were all but eliminated in America in the 40's and 50's...because of DDT...My hero will be the person who brings it back or something equally as effective. its all bs...like John Travolta who preaches environment and flies around in his private jets...Hypocrisy,,last nite I heard that bees are not pollinating crops because of cell phones...ok..so...who will be the first to turn in their cell phones...hypocrisy..If people accepted the truth about DDT it might have a chance to be reintroduced, but all the misinformation that was "written" about
    it is still deeply embedded dogma..

  48. wantmyskinback

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 11:55:46
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    BBB, we are not going off topic in my opinion. This thread is about DDT. Any commment pro con or otherwise remains on the topic. As I posted on another thread, I don't like to live within the confines of a BOX, so why do it here? This forum is for our voices (via our fingertips). Who cares if we stray a bit here and there. That is what makes for INDIVIDUALITY.
    Now, about DDT, I don't think Bugalina or anyone says it is THE SOLUTION, it is one of the solutions though. And why do BB's make a comeback after 30 years? Because DDT has a very long risidual from what I understand, and increased TRAVEL has brought them in. In the 70's did you know of "Airline Miles". No. And flights were very expensive then. Today your gas station attendent is flying to Bali on his "miles" and coming home with bb's.

  49. thebedbugresource

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 13:02:08
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    Hello All,

    BeenBedBugged is exactly correct. As pest control operators we used to come and spray "x" number of rooms per month in a hotel for cockroaches regardless of whether they had them or not. This was preventative maintenance.

    Cockroach treatment shifted from sprays and dusts to gel bait in the late 1980s but did not become mainstream until the late 1990s and in some areas into the early 2000s.

    It was roughly the late 1990s/early 2000s when Federal, State and Provincial laws changed (or at least were enforced) to eliminate preventative pest control treatments.

    IPM has been a "theory" since the late 50s but not practiced in many areas until recently. I still do conferences in areas of the US where people look at me funny when I tell them that effective rodent control starts with a good door sweep. The answer has and still remains to use more poison in many areas rather than address the root of the problem. Legislation is slowly catching up and these practices are being waned in favour of intelligent pest control.

    Check the stats on air travel or immigration. Not much has changed in the past five years (when this bed bug resurgence began) in terms of influx. It is complete BS to suggest that this is why bed bugs are back. It is convenient for the politicians etc. to place the blame on immigration or increased travel ... it is the policies in place that are the issue. Bed bugs have been traveling to NA all along, but until recently there was always a pesticide in place to meet them.

    The elimination of preventative measures and target specific pesticide has lead to where we are with bed bugs.

    Sean.

  50. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 15:00:33
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    I think its way too simplistic to blame this epidemic on the use of gel baits..I don't know where you live but there has been a tremendous influx of illegal immigrants in Long Island...tremendous...this is a bug that began its spread in the late 1990's ...There are many many variables to consider.....The only blame I place is on the lack of action on the parts of those who saw it coming and did nothing...I was using gel baits in my apt. in NYC in the mid seventies...for roaches....complaints of bed bugs started to appear in the nineties...and Australia was the first country to be hit hard....this is much more than the switch to gel baits...

  51. BeenBedBugged

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 15:01:05
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    WMSB, sorry, but I can't imagine that you could scroll through this thread and consider the insular and hysterical dialog a few posts up relevant to a conversation on DDT. This thread got hijacked and spammed. That is not a call for censorship, it is an observation of opinion, and nothing else. The fact that people can express themselves here is a good enough reason not to crack down on breaches of civility, so hijack and spam on, one and all. It doesn't mean that people will take you seriously or that you will get anything accomplished.

    Also, please read Sean's eloquent, reasoned, and educated take on why the ban on DDT has little or nothing to do with the resurgence of bed bugs in this country.

    As for statements comparing this blog to the Yahoo Group, I am not the one who first brought this up. But since the door has been opened, I will give my opinion. The two resources are completely different. I can tell you from personal experience that for some reason, one of the posters there, who is also a poster here, thought that it was appropriate to attack me during a time when I needed support.

    Because of my refusal to jump on the DDT bandwagon that is so popular among certain people, I was bizarrely accused of not really having bed bugs, (I suppose that meant I was some sort of environmentalist or scientist mole, I don't know, I can't follow the illogical associations that led to that charge) and although I sure would have liked to live up to that accusation, it was underhanded, rude, and destructive to a fellow member of a support group. The owner of the group did what she thought was right in the face of unacceptable behavior on a support group, which is supposed to be a safe place. I never asked for that, but that is how it was resolved. It's sad that because of the bizarre and outrageous behavior of one poster, the yahoo group is now a shadow of what it once was. That same poster had been in similar conflicts with other posters, and the whole matter detracted from the safe atmosphere of the group. It is a shame.

    On the other hand, I'm glad that NBOM allows dissent and discussion here at bedbugger. It's reasonable to call for civility, but the lack thereof in some of the posts here reflects more on the posters themselves than on their targets. As far as I'm concerned, it's ugly, but it doesn't slow me down or prevent me from saying what I believe is right.

    It has been my observation that the trauma of bed bug infestation can indeed lead to PTSD, and people respond to PTSD in ways that are not always pretty. It's good that there is an opportunity for people to play out whatever they need to in an arena where at least others know what they have been through. It's hard on us all. I just wish that all the shooting from the hip and thread-jacking were not so pervasive. But that is where we are right now, and that's a heck of a lot better than nothing.

    NBOM has done an amazing job creating this space. I won't post to this thread anymore because it has become a joke. It's too bad, but the beauty of this forum is that the conversation can be re-framed elsewhere, and maybe next time it will stay on track and really get us all somewhere.

  52. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 15:19:54
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    Wow talk about Spin.....accusing people of being "insular and hysterical"..."thread jacking" "flaming"...this is so mean spirited...This Blog is not a "joke"...just because people do not agree doesn't give others the right to fling hurtful insults...This Blog is a safe place where people do not sit in judgement of each other...no matter how emotional some posts may appear...no matter how each person expresses themselves.....it is through this kind of dialog that people learn. Unloading any emotions should be welcomed., and people here should feel safe to do so....as long as no one is personally attacked or belittled...to call anyone here "hysterical" is cruel.... If anyone doesn't want to partake in a Forum they don't have to click on it....Everyone has something to offer...everyone..we are all of us learning from each other..but passing judgement on how others should feel, creates tension....and anger..."shooting from the hip and thread-jacking"...This isn't a classroom...its a bunch of people who talk , who share who reach out....that's all it is.....we can disagree....We are about helping each other, not hurting each other...

  53. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 16:23:40
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    wantmyskinback..In reply to your comment on airline travel...I have an aerosol cannister that contains DDT...up until the mid 1970's the "stewardesses" would walk up and down the aisle of the plane....spraying this DDT....The directions say that it is to be sprayed 15 minutes before landing..along the entire length of the cabin..up and down....I have the can..it gives specific instructions and says its for "alien bugs"...This DDT aerosol was sprayed on every single international incoming flight...until it was banned...The company that made it is still in business...I actually got thru to the President and we spoke ... he said it was very effective but after the ban his company was no longer allowed to make it...He was shocked that I had a can....it came from my engineer friend who worked for Dow Chemical....

  54. Nobugsonme

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 18:44:27
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    Bugalina, BeenBedBugged, and Everyone,

    I want to be clear on this: this is NOT a space where people can express any emotions whatsoever. You have to be civil and you have to respect others, and I have seen some disrespect in this thread (from several corners).

    I think Willow misunderstood me when I asked everyone in this forum to be civil. I was
    not suggesting, as Willow seemed to take it, that people "put up" with social injustice, or bed bugs, or any other problems. If you know me, you know I do not agree with that.

    I was, instead, asking that people be kind to one another, treat each other with respect, and not resort to attacking personalities. In fact, unity is the best way to fight for change.

    When I said that this blog is open to things such as the discussion of "politically charged" topics like DDT, I meant just that. However, I will not tolerate things disintegrating into name-calling (on anyone's part).

    I also believe strongly that people should state their points, back them up with whatever evidence they can (preferably via links we can use to check things out for ourselves), and then listen to others, speaking again when they have something new to say. I don't see the point of beating a dead horse.

    This forum is part of a blog which aims at more than just providing a space for discussion. Do you know that for every person who posts to the blog comments, or here on the forum, there are hundreds (and some days thousands) who just read? They need good information, and encouragement, and sometimes they need to know how bad things can get, sure. But mostly, they need good, solid, unbiased information.

    It is very important to me that those people find rational information. I do want people to be exposed to multiple viewpoints, but it is not a case of "you can say anything you want."

    The blog was originally created to host the FAQs, and I decided early on that I wanted to comment on the news. It was created long before the discussion of politics/DDT was banned on the yahoo group. I want to be clear about that--I did not start this blog as an alternative point of view to the yahoo group.

    Other points of view are very welcome. But I think we not only have the obligation to present them in a rational manner (with researched information, linked where possible), but also to present them in a reasonable way. This means not repeating the same thing over and over, and yes, it means communicating in a calm manner.

    Make no mistake, I am glad you're all here, but you do need to be civil to one another, even people who disagree with your viewpoint.

    If we want to help other people, it's the best way. And frankly, if people don't agree, well, I can't please everyone. So this is the warning: I won't close this thread, today. I am not censoring the issue. HOWEVER, if I see anything uncivil in future, I will remove it if I feel its necessary.

    I do not want to police the forums. I also do not want to moderate. I don't think most people realize how much trouble it is for someone like Caitlin to have to read each post and decide which are worth posting.

    But if people will not be civil, it will happen here too.

    Let me be clear: you're very welcome to respond to this post with any feedback (in fact, I hope you will--when I post my "managerial" messages and no one responds, it's kind of like talking to a vacuum). But whether you should be respectful of others on the forums is not up for discussion.

  55. willow-the-wisp

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 20:50:15
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    thanks NBOM My idea of civil was just a efort to broaden the topic a bit to more universal and humanistic and humanitarian concerns--is is getting stuck a bit on differing viewpoints. I do appologise for itergrating a small conversation wit hBugalina that was indeed off topic. It was more I'm thinking she did not get the pm I sent her and I i figured that this was as good a place as any to find her. I looked at the threads and saw she was posting in here. BIB--I appologize for inturupting any flow via DDT vs R.C. with a little humanistic concern--and isn't that the broadest topic here humanism vs the environment?

  56. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 21:27:48
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    I appreciate the offer to respond.....this is the exact same situation that did happen on the Yahoo Group.. a covert anger was displayed and it altered the entire tone of the Group. I have been very cognizant of never personalizing anyone for having a differing opinion...I have never accused anyone of being "irresponsible, hysterical, unduely emotional, or creating "insular posts" " thread jacking" nor I have ever belittled anyone and said what they are posting is a "joke". I relate and respond to kindness. I do my best to be empathetic of everyone's feelings. A display of covert anger is, imho , an attempt to shut down free thought...It worked once before and unfortunately it might work again.. No one on this group has had any problems with one another...that should speak for something.......We have come together as a band of bed bug brothers and sisters, we are here to help.....not hurt, nor judge......Not everything nor everyone can be academic...nor imho, should we be..People should never ever be belittled or insulted on this Blog.....Negative can be a stronger force than positive. ..Our friendship should be embraced..but if I may speak honestly, I am very saddened that once again a pall has been cast on what was a terrific group of people..when I reread the posts I don't see the "thread jacking" as the problem..I see a sharp tongued lashing because others aren't giving in...why should this highjack all the good feelings that have been exchanged??.....I was offered the opportunity to respond..and I did. I will continue, as always to treat everyone with respect...I don't care if they have a masters degree in Astro Physics...I care if they can understand and listen and exchange their ideas and feelings freely without fear of being targeted and belittled...I was told that my response would be welcomed...I hope so...

  57. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 21:31:55
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    Willow Thank you for putting it so well..the broadest topic should be humanism over environment or semantics or whatever..

  58. buggedinbrooklyn

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 22:17:21
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    I hope I don't get in deep shit for saying a few words...

    I love all of you here who have helped me and others fight bedbugs...as silly as that sounds, it's true.

    I also love a heated debate far more then any of you here, but I stayed out of this for too long.
    please, lets just drop it.
    I'll tell you my thoughts in a moment on this subject, but please, just drop it.
    in another thread, I fought hard to say that we need to band together and help fight the REAL fight...against bedbugs, not us victims.

    I think it has already been said that both of you seem to feel alot closer to the same on this subject then you realise.
    who cares what we think of Rachel Carson. after all, even she would not mind some personal use of DDT in our homes.
    (her words, not mine.)

    this thread has gone the way some people debate about global warming...
    you agree or not. but what ever your stand on global warming is, you must be wrong in the eyes of those who disagree with you.
    why must someone be wrong?

    I always ask people who are talking about global warming the same thing....
    "who cares if global warming is real or not, can't we all agree that this world is heavily over poluted? after all, we can't eat more then one can of tuna a week. I also know far to many lakes and streems that you just can't eat the fish from them anymore. acid rain doesn't come from the bible, it comes from man.
    why are there too many towns and small citys, abandoned from polutents in the soil?

    why don't we at lest talk about what we can do about things we agree are bad?"

    even if DDT was to make a comeback, it would be used in far different ways then before.
    with good reason.
    yes, I'm sure many of us feel it's safe, but it still would be highly regulated at best.
    again, who cares what Rachel Carson thinks, or said in the past?
    she don't matter today at all.
    and bedbugs didn't make a strong comeback because DDT was removed from most of the world.

    sadly, rats and mice have made a strong comeback in NYC too.
    they were always here, but now they have taken over the city.
    no preventive pest control treatments are more then likely the number 1 reason for both the rodent and bedbug comeback.
    now I'm not all for going back to roach sprays again. but we need something or it's going to be some kind of spray.

    come on folks, we are on the front lines.
    band together and stop calling names or making acusations...and forgive those who may have.

    above all, lets not drag this thread down into the toilet.

    *hugs* to all.

    buggedinbrooklyn

  59. Bugalina

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    Sun Apr 15 2007 23:03:23
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    You see...this is what keeps me coming back to this Blog...thank you bugged..Did you ever read the poem..The Pied Piper of Hamelin" ? We need a pied piper....

  60. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Apr 16 2007 0:28:36
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    Nobody's in trouble, everyone's okay, right? Maybe the pied piper will help us "move on." get it?

    I am closing this thread because it's gotten pretty long (did anyone else hate clicking for page 2, or am I just lazy?) and Bugalina asked me to. You can talk about DDT again when you're inclined, but just start a new thread.


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