Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Detection / Identification of bed bugs

David Cain- Schrodinger's BB (Bug + Fecal ID/ Monitor/Bites)

(7 posts)
  1. bugged_out_vancouver

    newbite
    Joined: Oct '14
    Posts: 3

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Oct 28 2014 23:35:21
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hello David,

    I read through your recent conversation with helen-r from Germany with immense interest since I can relate to just about everything Helen is going through. She and I and likely countless other readers are wanting so much to trust in that the passive monitor is doing it's job, however while still experiencing nocturnal bites and seeing blood spots and dark marks (possible fecal) on the freshly laundered sheets we can't help but assume our situation might be one in a million where the monitor doesn't work. Our lack of confidence and jumping to conclusions stems from our lack of your formidable years of study that gives you complete trust in the monitor, so please do forgive us for that unease! And thank you very much for your time spent responding & educating us all here from across the world and for your continued patience.

    So the bottom line then, once and for all-- is that we can trust the monitors to being about 85% effective? No spotting or signs of life inside after 40 days equals close to zero bedbugs in the flat, correct? Brilliant! Further backed up by a certified K9 detection team inspection the chances of bed bugs have now become about approximately 0%? Sound about right? Okay then, so why am I writing in here you might wonder?

    I've had both the passive monitor remain spotless the last 60 days and have had the 'all clear' K9 inspection 2 months ago as well. However David even with your extensive knowledge and trust in the monitor, if you yourself were waking up with bites and drops of blood (a few on strange areas of the bed sheets for the last 2 months where you wouldn't have brushed an arm or leg across), wouldn't you also start to wonder what was going on? Or getting a bite in a chair and seeing a bloodspot on the chair cushion where it touched your leg. I'm sure you wouldn't be in panic mode like I am, but would it not bother you on some level? I have to tell you I'm feeling pretty bothered.

    In the interest of clarifying things further for me and possibly others in the same boat, I was hoping you or other professionals might have time to click on a few photos to further alleviate my and other reader's (uneducated) fears. If you could I would be ever so grateful.

    PHOTOS

    The photo album is found here. All have descriptions attached to them. click a few times to enlarge each. I can try Flickr as well if these aren't acceptable.

    http://smg.photobucket.com/user/allthebestthings2/library/Apartment

    01) casing I found tonight on floor near bed
    02) assorted markings on bedframe, floor, bookcase, stored paper, stove face- note: stove is just 4 feet away from bed in apt, window frame beside bed
    03) bed sheet markings. I've largely left off the other blood mark photos since they were all fresh and I've noticed the experts here usually state fresh blood is not indicative of bed bugs.
    04) bug debris I've been finding on the floor around the apartment. Not bb related, it's just disturbing and wondered if an entomologist might know what the heck is going on. The same bug leaves flakes all around the apartment, salt looking crystals on the floor and amber splotches all over walls or food packaging or the sides of my dresser or coffee table. It's really weird! But perhaps that is for another day. My main focus of course is a review of the photos in relation to bed bugs.
    05) Blood on the cushion where I was sitting and received a bite. Spot located just above the dime.

    I would be very interested to receive feedback on the photos (from anyone at all who feels qualified enough), and also to have comments on my situation in general. I understand that the passive monitor and K9 review reads as 100% crystal clear to many of you, but why then am I receiving bites, and blood spots is the big question.

    The woman at the K9 inspection company has been kind enough to follow up with me and suggests perhaps carpet beetle larvae is what is giving me the bite reaction. It is true I have seen both beetle and larvae in the apartment, but the larvae isn't bristly like some of the internet photos show so I'm not sure the fibres are everywhere, and especially on freshly washed linens. And it does not explain the blood spots.

    The last 60 days I haven't felt like I've really been living my life due to all of the worry and anxiety. It's been a roller-coaster ride to be sure! (I'm sure you all can empathize).

    Thank you all in advance; and thank-you David!

    Very sincerely,
    Heather

  2. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 16,790

    online

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 29 2014 4:50:26
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    OK I can see where you are going with this one and the summary is:

    When I encounter situations where its not bedbugs I start to look at the finer details of the situation in order to be able to start working through a more advanced set of diagnostics which interface between changing things in the home and seeking medical tests in order to establish what the issue actually is, because its not bedbugs.

    I have looked through your images, nothing confirms bedbugs.

    The dark spots on the sheets after washing, hmmm, let me think,:

    Please read:

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/new-blood-spots-on-sheets-primer

    Post washing red spots become dark and black.

    So your issue is most likley one of some other cause other than bedbugs. The only way I could help you work that out is to come to your come and literally walk the room to apply my years and years of experience to the situation that you are actually living in and narrow down the list of possibilities into something that could be conveyed in a format that would not take hours if not days of debate.

    In the absence of that option I can but give you the next best thing. The advantage of my technology. For some reason the world has a habit of not always reading what is available to it so I will quote from a report in 2010:

    A series of 21 day trials were undertaken whereby a population of 6 male bed bugs were introduced into both domestic and commercial room configurations. The rooms and monitors were inspected daily to map the progress of the bugs in the rooms. In these trials the first evidence was noted on the monitor 5 days after inoculation with a mean average of 12 days. Over the term of the trial not all bugs found their way to the monitors. In most cases once one bug has found the monitor the others moved in within a few days.

    Now to be 100% clear I did not conduct that test in 2010. The results were part of the independent review of my technology by a third party on behalf of myself and the person who licensed the technology from me. While I appreciate you may have read many times that I don't have test data, we do, it has been out there for years but just as you cant tell whats in the box and if its alive until you open it you cant force people to actually read and engage with the information that is in front of them.

    Now what little I can ascertain from the images that you have provided aside from the no confirming signs of bedbugs is that there is clearly a damp / mold issue int he location. This complicates the ultimate diagnosis because you may have a multi-factoral situation with a combination of environmental and biological triggers combining to cause the symptoms that you have listed.

    Beyond that I would need to come and visit the property in order to be any more specific. I have actually done this on a few occasions when I have been traveling and it produces some rather amazing results. Its a akin to a good art inspector, they can not give a definitive answer to a rediscovered masterpiece via webcam (unless its an obvious fake) it require personal inspection at which point they are not just using their eyes, all the senses come into play and just as an athlete is at the peak of their field after 6+ years of training of the 12 years 10 have been spent really focusing and training and as such I can detect things that others find hard to comprehend being able to. Sadly like the box most choose to pick the negative and say a human cant scent detect a single bedbug. I am sure they are also the people who cant understand how a sommelier can differentiate between different vintages but they can with training.

    So I can only leave this with a question. You have shown no signs of having bedbugs and yet rather than investigate other options you keep coming back to the belief that you could have bedbugs. What is that gravity that draws you back rather than seeking other solutions?

    I am still working on the best way to construct the Schrodinger's post because its a little more complex than it first appears and with all the popcorn chucking of late and the fact that time is not in fact "whibbly wobbly" I have not finished it yet.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  3. bugged_out_vancouver

    newbite
    Joined: Oct '14
    Posts: 3

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 29 2014 6:36:55
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hello David,

    And thank you so much for your response. I'm still awake here on the West Coast at 3:30 am since I was still quite bothered about my little apartment and haven't put my head down quite yet. I was vastly pleased to see your response and most especially the bolded "it's not bedbugs". The look of relief on my face was likely a bit comical, but after 2 entire months of not being sure and going through many little traumas along the way (including panicked late-night flashlight searching in bedding) I'll take comical over tears any day. And hopefully the dialogue is useful to many others as well.

    So alright! I can be elated it's not bed bugs (thank you again) but the sense of unease is not quite swatted away since I still have to figure out what is causing these bite-like marks largely on the face. Never the arms, and only recently the legs. (Currently there are no less than 7 subtle bite-like marks on my face. That seems a lot). When I do finally figure it out I promise to post the answer up to save others some trouble.

    David- just to clarify a few points from your response:

    The black marks on the sheets are not washed-in blood. Those are new marks that appeared on pristine white sheets. They hadn't been there the night previous and then they appeared. And they are 100% not pen-ink. But provided you don't think they look like bb fecal then I don't care what mysterious creature left them; I'll just put them out of my mind.

    The comment about mold in the apartment had me perplexed. You must have inferred that the markings around the bed slats were mold and they are most definitely not; the dark markings appear to me as most likely from the bone-dry wood rubbing against the metal rails over many years. (Also- if that were mold, how could someone live like that? Ugh! Not me thanks; I prefer my house to be clean and dry.). The bank statement paper also does not house mold, the bits on the paper appeared to me like insect droppings akin to bedbug fecal which worried me which is why I included it. I don't blame you if you thought it was mold however; I'm sure the items are a bit lost in translation via photography.

    To answer your question of "why do I keep coming back to the possibility of having bedbugs" is an easy one for me to answer. I am not an expert in insects and my current knowledge and according to the internet there are very few things that bite humans at night. And also possibly leave blood. And so my lack of understanding about the creatures absolute rules & regulations made the signs unclear to me even though they are likely crystal clear to you and a few others.

    If anyone has any other suggestions as to what else it might be that would be a great help. A carpet beetle apartment cleanse is likely a good start in this detective process. And perhaps I will still buy climb up interceptors just to see what they catch (beetles, random bugs). Or maybe I will just move to a different apartment (and hopefully not bring anything buggy with me to the new one- carpet beetles, silverfish, clothing moths- ugh). I hope to find an answer to this soon and have a peaceful, contented mind and apartment again. I'm on the job!

    Thanks so much David, and yes if you are ever in Vancouver for business I will be quite happy to send a lovely box of chocolates and a bottle of wine to you with my sincere thanks for your time and response.

    Best,
    Heather

  4. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 16,790

    online

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 29 2014 7:02:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    If they appear on the sheets as black test them with bed bug blue to rule out bedbugs.

    The mold observation is based on what appears to be small mold spore in a few of the images. Mold is an indication of damp or an environmental issue not a pejorative comment on cleanliness. I occasionally have mold in my bathroom because my upstairs neighbor often leave the bath running to the point of overflowing.

    Thanks for the offer of chocs and wine but I am a non dairy tea total-er (aside from celebratory bottle of champagne).

    David

  5. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 16,790

    online

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Oct 30 2014 5:34:50
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    Someone asked me to provide a link tot he original document for that quote, its here:

    http://www.bed-bugs.co.uk/monitordataandresults.pdf

    The document was a write up for an organization called UKPCO which was a trade group of independent pest controllers in the UK. The document has two contributors, myself in terms of reporting our initial field observations and data as well as the second author who contributed the independent testing data.

    As you can read three studies were conducted:

    • Tank trial - a simple test placing bedbugs in an arena to see how they interacted with the device - result passed.
    • Hotel trial - a location that knew one of its guests was introducing bedbugs but which one. Routine monitoring and hyper vigilant detection allowed them to work out who that was - result the problems were resolved by monitor replacement alone (no chemical intervention).
    • Inoculation trial - live bedbugs released in domestic and commercial settings to see how effective the monitor is at detection - result it passed

    Now I would like to draw you attention to one simple fact. This is the only device that has been tested using this inoculation approach which I have always said its the only valid test for a bedbug product as its the only test which reflect natural conditions. Sadly such tests are impossible to get authorized through ethics committees for academics and as such there is a flaw in much of the testing that is conducted at present. How big a hole? Well lend me a Galaxy transporter and I will do a barrel roll through it if you want.

    I would also like to disclose the fact that in 2010 all leading academics and professionals in the pest industry were either given (by me personally) or emailed a copy of this document which has been available on my website for many years. We also have many clients who have confirmed the trial results reflect what they see within their homes and businesses when using this approach.

    We have recently agreed a series of other testing projects with academics including some advanced studies of the infestation dynamics of real life infestation such as the ones we have previously conducted with Richard Naylor when he was doing his PhD at Sheffield University. These studies often take a long time before they are published but we are hoping that their excitement in what we have asked them to help us with is an indication that both parties are correct in how this will help the global understanding of bedbugs.

    Thanks to those who asked me for the link.

    David

  6. astrogirl

    newbite
    Joined: Jan '19
    Posts: 56

    offline

    Posted 2 months ago
    Sun Feb 10 2019 17:27:26
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Just curious if Heather ever figured out what was going on regarding her bites and weird stains. Sounds similar to what I've been dealing with.

  7. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 16,790

    online

    Posted 2 months ago
    Mon Feb 11 2019 7:44:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi astrogirl,

    One of the frustrating things about the forum is that we don't always hear how things end.

    I get a lot more closure in my direct engaged work because I am continually in the loop and looking through the data. I can only confirm that I am amazed by the diversity and variety of causes and symptoms. I have even had to send info to Lou on a few occasions to see if they made sense to him.

    The only help I can really give is to be logical and methodical in your approach and to avoid changing lots of variables at once and to be open to all potential causes. Often the only hope I can initially offer is the reassurance that the solution will be the last thing that you test.

    From my end that has helped immensely is developing an approach that collates the data into a standard format. If you reduce things down to their most basic "process flow" perspective you realise that the input variability of the forum can at times make things harder to process. When you can streamline and standardize down to a optimal "clean" process (without the emotions) it becomes a lot more manageable. At our peak capacity we were processing 12 properties per day 5 days a week and that's a lot of insights into how to best help people to cope.

    Equally there are times like this case where the issue is outside of bedbugs and while they are by definition "rare cases" when you do a huge volume of work you naturally pick up on more of it than you could otherwise. One year in the late 2000's we spotted a mass outbreak of bedbugs was in fact carpet beetles but this was because we had a lot of "failed treatment cases" across a range of service providers where the pattern was identical. In fact it was treatment then 3 - 5 days no activity and then a massive spike with skin reactions and often blood on the sheets but no live samples, cast skins and faecal traces. We have a strong hypothesis for why this happens but no ethical mechanism for testing it out. We could create a specification for a "treatment solution" but again our ethics point us towards making that available through information rather than allowing someone to charge $X per sq foot for spraying "salty water" to temporarily abate the symptoms.

    Hoping the OP will come back and update though and hopefully this update will add to the options for those who find it as you did.

    David


RSS feed for this topic


Reply

You must log in to post.

287,541 posts in 47,911 topics over 148 months by 21,107 of 21,446 members. Latest: nyc-bedbugs, needhelp1111, urka1234