Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Tools/ideas for fighting bed bugs

Cot or hammock as an alternative to the bed.

(92 posts)
  1. ITortureBugs4Revenge

    member
    Joined: Nov '13
    Posts: 322

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Mar 17 2014 3:14:15
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I always wondered if when facing a bedbug issue if not using the bed at all and purchasing a cot, or even a hammock to sleep on instead would be a good alternative, as cots are very simple and lightweight, they can easily be inspected and sterilized on a daily basis, and the metal legs of a cot would make it difficult for bedbugs to access you while you sleep, provided you take the usual precautions of not letting the blanket touch the floor and not let anything contact the walls. I would think it would be a very good way to keep the little buggers from attacking you in your sleep if for whatever reason you can't get the infestation dealt with in a timely manner. Any thoughts from the pros on that?

    .....I am NOT an expert.....

    Any advice i give here is based solely on my own personal experiences in dealing with bedbugs & other household vermin.
  2. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 18 2014 12:38:23
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    I can see the logic path you are on and wanted to share this:


    IMG_9982 by bedbugscouk, on Flickr

    Not the newest of ideas and not one that caught on last time.

    I appreciate the apparent logic in avoiding bites but this often comes at the cost of prolonging the infestation as bedbugs disperse in a hope of finding a different route to food or an alternate source of food.

    We fleetingly played with the idea in the early days but soon reaslised the dispersal and 3 dimensional movements of bedbugs means its just never going to be viable and cost effective.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

  3. theyareoutthere

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 3,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 18 2014 19:36:31
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I can't see the picture

    They
    Are
    Out
    There
    = TAOT
  4. JustChecking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '13
    Posts: 782

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Mar 18 2014 21:43:15
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I can see it. The title of the picture is "Bed-Bugs Outwitted!" While the person sleeps peacefully on a hammock, 4 bed bugs are hanging out on a stool, and 11 bed bugs are hanging out on a chair.

    JustChecking, not a therapist / bug pro
    Please click my user name on the left for these threads:
    (OR go through my thread starter list OR use the search engine)
    --->stress busters --->energy boosters
    --->songs of hope and faith --->help U sleep tonight
  5. ITortureBugs4Revenge

    member
    Joined: Nov '13
    Posts: 322

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 19 2014 3:23:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    What David said about an infestation being prolonged or worse yet dispersing to neighbors that way makes a lot of sense and it escaped me somehow when the hammock idea came to me.

    Thanks!

  6. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Mar 19 2014 7:13:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    It is not so much that they are dispersed to neighbors, its more that they become dispersed in the room and therefore become harder to treat.

    As research has shown us in natural conditions bedbugs choose to first occupy the space within three foot of a host. If you make that prime real estate impossible to access then the secondary potential homes are all by default further away and harder to treat without using more product or process to get the same result.

    My approach has always been driven to get the best results with the least impact on people, the environment and their homes. Its a little like the oath Dr's take to "first do no harm". As such things that avoid the need to "power wash" peoples homes with insecticide will always be high on our priority list.

    You are always more likely to disperse bedbugs to neighbors through the incorrect use of insecticides than through making yourself impossible to feed from.

    Hope that clarifies.

    David

  7. Asherdu

    newbite
    Joined: Jun '14
    Posts: 1

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Jun 9 2014 17:10:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Performing some rancid thread necromancy here to answer some questions, in case anyone's wondering.

    I full time sleep in a hammock (they're really really comfy and just all around great) and this last month I've been getting bites all over. I reasoned them as mosquito bites, since I'd leave the window open, and tis the season. Wrong. It's freakin bed bugs.

    I bundle all my clothes up in my hammock, like it was a laundry bag, when I wash. And that's what I did today. Driving down to the laundromat and what do I see but a plump little bed bug scurrying around on my hammock. All filled up with my blood, and walking on my things, like he belongs there. Great.

    I'm guessing they just scurry on down the friggin ropes from some hide-away.

    So, you can get a bed bug infestation even if you sleep in a hammock. Yay.

    But, there's the added nicety of being able to throw all your bedding (hammock, blanket, sheet if you use it) into a dryer for an hour. There's no mattress to replace. No headboard to hide behind. No box spring. So, that's nice. I could probably make some kind of cocoon mesh that would keep them away from me, so I'll try that out.

  8. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Jun 10 2014 1:30:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In the meantime, I guess you'll be sealing the laundry in a garbage bag before taking it to the laundromat?

    Thanks for sharing your input on the topic and good luck on ending your bed bug issue, Asherdu.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  9. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jul 30 2014 10:01:43
    #



    Login to Send PM

    A hammock or cot is an excellent idea. Using one prevents one of the problems associated
    with bed bugs - reproduction. They can't reproduce on these pieces of furniture but they
    can certainly get to them to bite you.

    The secret to avoiding this problem (of getting to you) is to place the cot or hammock in a location
    where they aren't. The kitchen is an ideal location since it has no couches, lounge chairs or beds.
    Bed bugs need to be in the later pieces of furniture otherwise they are dead (they need your blood).
    Bed bugs do not move by and large randomly from one couch, lounge chair of bed to another
    as you might think. Rather they wait for inadvertant transfer to occur which I explain below.
    Inadvertant transfer is also the mechanism by which they are transferred out of your dwelling.

    If you have bed bugs in your bed in the bed room put bed bug encasements on both mattresses
    even if you switch to a cot or hammock. This will encase 70% of the problem in the bedroom on
    average (30% of the bed bugs are off the bed). Also, clean very thoroughly or remove the head
    board. (they reproduce there) You can apply pesticide or clean in the neighborhood of the bed, but you shouldn't need to. Bed bugs will tend to stay at this type of location even though you will not return for a while (wait at least a year to allow all the bed bugs to die off - they need to ingest blood
    at least once a year). Bed bugs have no sense of time.

    Close all interior doors when you sleep at night on your cot/hammock safely in the kitchen
    while you wait for the dieoff to occur in the associated bed bug infested furniture consisting
    of beds, couches and lounge chairs throughout the house. Turn over any couches or lounge
    chairs to avert use. In the kitchen remove all clutter from the area around the cot/hammock
    while you sleep at night (about an 8 foot radius to take into account the carbon dioxide
    detection radius that bed bugs use to detect your presence).

    Bed bugs are small and what you must do to make this work is to prevent inadvertant transfer of bed bugs from one location to another. This is the major way they move from one piece of
    furniture to another. This will occur when you sit on piece of affected furniture and then
    pick up bed bugs and then move to an unaffected piece of furniture. Inadvertant transfer could
    also occur by transfer via clothing or a suitcase (put on affected furniture - bed bugs enter and
    then you put that clothing or suitcase on an unaffected piece of furniture).

    For covering on the cot/hammock when you sleep at night, do not use any of the bedding
    from an infested bed even if you clean it. Because of their smallness, inadvertant transfer
    could occur via this mechanism.

    Reproduction occurs in an infested piece of furniture when there is at least one pregnant
    female present or a male and female are present (who find each other and reproduce).

    The method I described above worked for me. No furniture needed to be thrown out.
    The bed bugs eventually died after I waited a year by sleeping on a cot.

    A cot/hammock may not be required if there was no inadvertant transfer to the couch in the
    living room and decide to sleep there for a year. I've seen an article on a case where this worked. If ofcourse one max 1/4 inch pregnant female or a male and female are in the couch this would not
    work and the problem would start up there with you being the food source returning there every night to sleep. Reproduction would occur there. The same comments I make about about removal
    of clutter apply here as well.

    I would not sleep on bed with bed bug encasements because encasements can tear. I would
    use them however as I point out above to encase the bed bugs that are living and reproducing
    inside the bed which will take away much of the problem in the bed room (70% of them
    are typically in the bed in the bed room).

    As an ancestors said: 'Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite'. This means that it is ok to
    have bed bugs around, you just can't let them bite you. But actually what should be added
    is if they bite you in an environment which inhibits their reproduction you have circumvented
    a significant problem and can use that to avert the problem at low cost. You have stabilized the
    problem and if there is limited biting you have lowered the amount of time you must continue
    to use the cot/hammock until the problem ends.

    Also, any residue for the next renter can be taken care of by property management by
    using steam cleaning. If property management is not doing this already they should be
    as you have to assume that everyone has bed bugs these days. They may not gotten
    to their sofas, lounge chairs or beds to create an infestation problem.

    chicagobedbugordinancerocks

  10. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jul 30 2014 23:24:52
    #



    Login to Send PM

    A hammock or cot is an excellent idea. Using one prevents one of the problems associated
    with bed bugs - reproduction. They can't reproduce on these pieces of furniture but they
    can certainly get to them to bite you.

    The secret to avoiding this problem (of getting to you) is to place the cot or hammock in a location
    where they aren't. The kitchen is an ideal location since it has no couches, lounge chairs or beds.
    Bed bugs need to be in the later pieces of furniture otherwise they are dead (they need your blood).
    Bed bugs do not move by and large randomly from one couch, lounge chair of bed to another
    as you might think. Rather they wait for inadvertant transfer to occur which I explain below.
    Inadvertant transfer is also the mechanism by which they are transferred out of your dwelling.

    chicagobedbugordinancerocks,

    I have sent you a PM about changing your username, so it does not go "off" the margins.

    I am not sure about your "information" above. You may feel that sleeping in a hammock in a kitchen would remove the possibility of bed bugs relocating to your new sleeping room, but this is not in line with what experts tell us of bed bug behavior.

  11. buggyinsyracuse

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '12
    Posts: 555

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jul 31 2014 9:45:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    chicagobedbugordinancerocks - 23 hours ago  » 
    A hammock or cot is an excellent idea. Using one prevents one of the problems associated
    with bed bugs - reproduction. They can't reproduce on these pieces of furniture but they
    can certainly get to them to bite you.

    I'm confused. I didn't think that bed bugs needed a bed to reproduce. Wouldn't they simply find another harborage area to reproduce? Am I missing something here?

  12. stuffedanimal

    newbite
    Joined: May '14
    Posts: 31

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jul 31 2014 9:53:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I got rid of my bed and slept on a canvas cot until very recently. It is much easier to treat and to clean, but if, like me, you can't afford extermination or get your landlord to exterminate, the cot will eventually become hopelessly infested. Two weeks ago, after having it for a year, I finally had to throw it out.

  13. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Aug 2 2014 9:53:44
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I don't know if exterminators are the ones responding to my post. It is in your best interest
    to preserve your business. I recall one exterminator stating that he had great admiration
    for bed bugs. I wasn't surprised because of all the money his company has made. Just look
    at the following facts about the bed bug exterminators:

    (1) Orkin in the January 2014 bed bug yearly report listed a profit increase of 20% year over year.

    (2) Batzner business in bed bugs is so big that they have cars that have 'Bed Bug Services'
    listed on the side.

    (3) Batzner has heating trucks that you put furniture in to heat to 120-130 degrees F to
    kill all the bed bugs in furniture placed in there.

    Your (exterminators) overhead is high to cover the cost of maintaining bed bug dogs etc.
    You are clearly worried about maintaining your business.

    What is needed is low cost solutions to this problem. It costs $600 just to have a bed bug
    inspection to determine where extermination is to be done.

    As a point of fact, a 1-800-GOT-JUNK operator told me about the fact that bed bugs are never found
    in the kitchen according to their experience with service requests to remove furniture
    for bed bug remediation. This was the case for me in a previous experience with them
    (also not in the dining room). This is due to the simple fact that there are no sofas, lounge
    chairs and beds in that location (kitchen). Using a cot or hammock did the trick for me.
    It helps greatly to discover the problem early and put encasements on the bed. Bed bugs move from place to place primarily via inadvertent transfer. (from one or sofa, lounge chair
    or bed to another)

  14. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Aug 2 2014 9:59:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    According to a Sept. 2013 article in the Milwaukee Journal, homeowners have been successful
    remediating bed bug problems on their own. You don't need to use the pesticide companies.
    I am not the only one stating that individual remediation is possible.

    The large numbers of discarded bed bug infested sofas, lounge chairs and beds that
    have been deposited in the garbage or placed on curbsides further attests to this. People
    are taking care of this problem on their own. (not necessarily in the same way as I did)

    http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/pi/homeowners-turning-to-do-it-yourself-bed-bug-remedies-b99102947z1-224789472.html

  15. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Aug 2 2014 13:14:37
    #



    Login to Send PM

    chicagobedbugordinancerocks - 3 hours ago  » 
    I don't know if exterminators are the ones responding to my post. It is in your best interest
    to preserve your business.

    Actually, no. You're batting up the wrong tree. As far as I know, only one person in this thread makes money treating for bed bugs (bedbugscouk). He's in London and doesn't stand to gain from someone in Chicago like you hiring a PCO.

    Look, you're very welcome here, but we have a lot of input from entomologists and pest professionals who actually in many cases know quite a bit about bed bug behavior. Funnily enough. And most of us do try to convey the best information here.

    So instead of assuming that people who don't agree with you have something to lose if people were to follow your advice, consider whether there may be others whose relevant experience tells them something different.

    The article from the Journal-Sentinel that you reference says this,

    According to Bedbuggers.com [sic], a forum for people affected by bedbugs, a few people have successfully done their own treatment. Most of them had professional experience with pesticides or supplemented their own treatment with professional work.

    So obviously, people here have successfully self-treated. However, the most successful cases likely got their information from experts here. People who want to DIY should get the best information available, from sources who directly know about bed bugs and their treatment.

    (I recall this article. Nice typo on our name, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. Thanks a lot!)

    Finally, re: your remarks: bed bugs don't generally infest kitchens. But people also don't generally sleep in them. Sleep in the kitchen and bed bugs will most likely join you there.

    And by the way, throwing out infested furniture is not only unnecessary, but can lead to people spreading bed bugs to neighbors. Which means they can come right back to you later. So seeing lots of discarded furniture should not assure you that people are successfully dealing with their bed bug problems. It should make you wonder how long they will go before bed bugs return.

    Chicago, I run the site. I noted above I sent you a Private Message about changing your username to something which doesn't run off the margins. You can read your private messages and respond here. Please follow up with me. Thanks!

  16. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Aug 4 2014 9:42:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    First, I want to point out that I experienced inadvertent transmission in my first experience
    with bed bugs. I have got through the complete experience with a bed bug infestation
    prior to my last experience. I had them (bed bugs) for three months in my couch before
    they got into my bed. I was using the couch for storage and was not using it for it's usual purpose.
    (did not sit on it) I put something onto the couch apparently that had bed bugs in it. After three months, I started to store an additional piece of clothing on the couch, which I put on at night because of the cold. This is the way in which inadvertent transmission occurred from the couch to the bed. The bed bugs did not walk from my couch to the bed as one might expect with a usual pest.

    In the couch by the way, I would notice bugs from time to time on it, but took no notice of it
    and did not know they were bed bugs at that time.

    This I verified with the exterminators because they reported a higher level of infestation in
    the couch than in the bed after the fact.

    The bed bugs in point of fact did not automatically move from the couch to the bed. They
    were in the couch for a far longer time than they were in my bed. They would get more
    bang for their buck if they moved automatically from the couch to the bed but they did not. There is a limit to their detection radius for carbon dioxide emissions which is an explanation for this. (assume an 8 foot sphere around each bed bug)

    I will point out in the article that I sent, that the woman reported an infestation of a couch
    in her daughter's apartment that she dealt with. If there was an infestation in the couch and
    the daughter used her bed to sleep they should have automatically moved there according to
    what you are stating.

    In a prior article by Gitte Laasby (same author) she reported on a man who had a problem with
    bed bugs in his bed, and as a result moved to his living room, and slept there on the couch for a year without being bothered by bed bugs! The bed bugs in that case, did not automatically move from his bed (in another room) to the couch in the living room.

    Inadvertant transfer is a reality for bed bugs both from my personal experience and from what
    I have read. That is the method by which they move about.There is a limit to the detection radius for bed bugs as far as detecting carbon dioxide emissions from human beings (about 8 feet)

  17. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Aug 4 2014 16:12:05
    #



    Login to Send PM

    chicagobedbugordinancerocks - 6 hours ago  » 
    There is a limit to their detection radius for carbon dioxide emissions which is an explanation for this. (assume an 8 foot sphere around each bed bug)
    I will point out in the article that I sent, that the woman reported an infestation of a couch
    in her daughter's apartment that she dealt with. If there was an infestation in the couch and
    the daughter used her bed to sleep they should have automatically moved there according to
    what you are stating.
    In a prior article by Gitte Laasby (same author) she reported on a man who had a problem with
    bed bugs in his bed, and as a result moved to his living room, and slept there on the couch for a year without being bothered by bed bugs! The bed bugs in that case, did not automatically move from his bed (in another room) to the couch in the living room.
    Inadvertant transfer is a reality for bed bugs both from my personal experience and from what
    I have read. That is the method by which they move about.There is a limit to the detection radius for bed bugs as far as detecting carbon dioxide emissions from human beings (about 8 feet)

    I understand you don't believe bed bugs can move to a new room of the home if someone starts sleeping there.

    That's not what experts tell us. I've been running this site for 8 years and have heard from more reliable sources that this is possible and happens. It does not happen instantly but does happen.

    Not interested in arguing further.

    Let me point out that my last two responses to you have asked you to take action on an administrative issue. And you have not done so. Please do not ignore this. Thanks.

  18. NY Bug Man

    member
    Joined: Nov '12
    Posts: 294

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Aug 4 2014 20:12:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I didn't want to get involved, but then i saw this.

    "As a point of fact, a 1-800-GOT-JUNK operator told me about the fact that bed bugs are never found
    in the kitchen according to their experience with service requests to remove furniture
    for bed bug remediation."

    Never take bug advice from junk removers.

    Funny enough- I was on a job today supervising at an inspection and the main problem was in the kitchen due to the person moving around his bed so much and misapplying the OTC pesticides.

  19. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Aug 4 2014 20:27:59
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Thanks Bug Man!

  20. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Aug 5 2014 12:21:10
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Admin issue: shorten my login then to chicagobedbugordrocks

    In regards to my last post: inadvertent transfer==hitchhiking in case that was not clear

    There are two ways for bed bugs to move from an infested location:

    (1) inadvertent transfer==hitchhiking on you, something you lay on infested area that you
    (or that thing) will transfer to a new location when you/it get there.

    Inadvertent transfer could occur for example if you have an infested couch and have
    a dog which spends time sleeping on different pieces of furniture. The bed bugs
    could climb on the dog and the dog could then transport the problem to the other
    pieces of furniture.

    (2) actual movement of bed bugs of their own accord from the infested area

    Based on my experience from my two problems, I believe overwhelmingly that (1) 99+% of the
    time is the predominant mode of transfer. (2) will be random.

    This is why the second time I was successful in using the cot in the kitchen. I prevented (1)
    by simply not using the bed room for a year. This limited bed bug movement to (2) which
    as far as I could tell did not occur. I returned to my bed room after a year. I also closed
    the door to the bed room as a further preventative to bed bug movement.

    I made sure that there was no clutter in the neighborhood of the cot that would result in
    a harboring area for reproduction of bed bugs in the neighborhood of the cot. I agree there
    are things other than beds, sofas and lounge chairs in which reproduction could occur.
    Inperfections in headboards (as occurred in my first incident), inperfections in wood in general
    and wicker are places where reproduction can occur.

    Precisely because I did not prevent (1) or rather allowed it to occur to transfer the problem
    from my sofa to my bed in my first bed bug incident at my old apartment, significant infestation of the bed occurred which required that the exterminator to be called.

    My level of bed bug infestation in the second case was much below that of the infestation.
    In the first case the experts estimated the level of infestation as about 1000 bed bugs
    distributed between bed and sofa (in living room). In the second case the level of infestation
    I would estimate 100 bed bugs. The encasements took care of part of that problem.

    I believe had I used the same method in the first case of infestation as in the second, I would
    have been successful in preventing the problem even though the problem in the second case
    was ten times worse.

    I'm not saying that what I did will work all the time, I am just reporting success for my
    second situation.

  21. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Aug 5 2014 12:26:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In regard to people discarding furniture on the curb or in the garbage when resolving a bed bug issue. I completely agree. I just reported that people do this (and still do this) to resolve
    a bed bug issue.

    In fact, the Chicago Bed Bug Ordinance addresses this issue with significant fines:
    They are $2000 per day for each day the issue is not resolved. You can discard such
    furniture provided it is thoroughly wrapped and labeled as bed bug infested.

    As regards my two incidents (first non-success at former apartment and second
    success in that I was able to remediate independently of outside help):

    In point of fact, for my first bed bug remediation, 1-800-GOT-JUNK wrapped the affected
    furniture before removing and did so while wearing HAZMAT suits.

    For my second bed bug remediation which I report I did successfully, there was no necessity
    to remove furniture. I refer to the remediation I did there and the method I used 'The
    Waiting Till Their Dead' method by the way.

  22. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Aug 5 2014 12:40:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As far as the 1-800-GOT-JUNK statement, they only stated as far as their experience goes.

    Similarly, I can only make statements on success with bed bugs based on my experience. I can't
    state success for all situations as I am unaware of them. I tried to state what I did as precisely
    as I could and it is possible that someone may learn from what I did.
    I would strongly advise that residents be made as informed as possible by property managers
    of apartment complexes so the problem can be identified at the earliest possible stage.
    In this way, it may be possible (as it was in my second successful reported case of bed
    bug remediation) to resolve the problem without discarding furniture or using the expensive
    services of the bed bug exterminators! (> $600 from my experience and that is just for
    inspection with bed bug dogs)

  23. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Aug 5 2014 15:15:13
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks - 2 hours ago  » 
    Admin issue: shorten my login then to chicagobedbugordrocks
    In regards to my last post: inadvertent transfer==hitchhiking in case that was not clear
    There are two ways for bed bugs to move from an infested location:
    (1) inadvertent transfer==hitchhiking on you, something you lay on infested area that you
    (or that thing) will transfer to a new location when you/it get there.
    Inadvertent transfer could occur for example if you have an infested couch and have
    a dog which spends time sleeping on different pieces of furniture. The bed bugs
    could climb on the dog and the dog could then transport the problem to the other
    pieces of furniture.
    (2) actual movement of bed bugs of their own accord from the infested area
    Based on my experience from my two problems, I believe overwhelmingly that (1) 99+% of the
    time is the predominant mode of transfer. (2) will be random.
    This is why the second time I was successful in using the cot in the kitchen. I prevented (1)
    by simply not using the bed room for a year. This limited bed bug movement to (2) which
    as far as I could tell did not occur.

    You might be surprised to hear that actual studies have been done which traced multiple infested units in a multi-unit apartment building to one single hitchhiker being brought in by one tenant.

    Clearly, scenario 2 is very common. What you believe happens vs what others experience may not match.

    Note your new username is Chicagobbordrocks. Your suggested username change was still too long to stay in the margins. Please communicate about future administrative issues outside the forums. Thanks!

  24. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Aug 6 2014 6:35:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks - 18 hours ago  » 

    Based on my experience from my two problems,

  25. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Aug 25 2014 9:26:37
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In summary: I discovered through my two experiences that bed bugs will stay in locations that they view
    as home (sofas, lounge chairs, sofas) even if no carbon dioxide exhaling mammal sits or lays there
    for a long period of time. This was the case from my first experience where they were in or on my
    sofa (most being in 99% - reason they were hard to detect) which I used strictly for storage for
    three months. They didn't walk into my bedroom during that time.

    Similarly in my second experience after I abandoned my bed to use a cot in the kitchen (where
    there were no bed bugs), they stayed in or near the bed.

    They stay in these locations and are loath to walk away from them because they are 'home'
    to them. Their primary method of transport from these locations is hitchhiking.

    This is unless the concentration of bed bugs in your location is high already. In my two instances
    the number of bed bugs were 1000 and 100 respectively. In the first case, most of those bed bugs
    were in the bed. These concentrations were low and in the second instance as I indicated
    my 'wait till they are dead' method in using a cot in the kitchen (which I used for a year)
    worked.

  26. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Sep 11 2014 12:44:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Regarding my last post and beds, sofas and lounge chairs being the home for bed bugs:
    In my second situation (100 bed bugs in bed area), I left the bed and used a cot in the
    kitchen for a year. Even though I was no longer there, there are two attractive factors
    for bed bugs to stay in their home and not move away: (1) the camaderie of their
    fellow bed bugs, and (2) sex. The sex is the reason you need to use encasements for the
    mattresses and get rid of the headboard (or clean it very thoroughly). This is the first
    thing that needs to be addressed right away. The next step is to cause the population
    to decrease. This I did by closing interior doors and moving to the kitchen and using
    the cot. I did not use the bed room because I did not want to transfer the problem
    by letting bed bugs hitchhike on my person or affects. I made it so they would have to
    walk out to the kitchen to bite me.

    I will point out that if they did come out to the kitchen to bite me that this would prolong
    the life of one bed bug by up to one year. Since I set up my surroundings in the kitchen so
    that reproduction could not occur (that cannot occur on a cot - and I cleared an 8 foot
    surroundings so there was no harborage in the near area) there no problem in the area
    of reproduction as there is in the bedroom. That one bed bug which is meandering about
    is just one bed bug. In the mean time the bed bugs still in bed room were dying.

    Also, regarding all the paranoia regarding bed bugs. I've noticed that people tend to
    anthropomorphise this pest (think of it as human). The Wil-Kil representative I spoke
    of who greatly admired this pest, also stated that bed bugs 'figure it out' as though bed bugs
    were human beings. This pest is only max 1/4 inch. There is only so much intelligence you
    can pack into the DNA of a 1/4 inch thing. This pest can be fooled and I did just that
    in the second situation with 100 bed bugs in the bedroom.

  27. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Sep 11 2014 14:10:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    Sorry but this approach is really not the answer.

    Bedbugs will find ways to get to you in an isolated bed or hammock or will seek secondary hosts to survive with.

    The net effect of this approach is that you go from having a focused and concentrated infestation to a more disparate and diffused one.

    The net effect of that is that it takes more resources to deal with than it would or could have in the first place.

    I am sure you can appreciate that many of these simple concepts have been tried before, either in history as per the postcard example or by someone in the last 10 years that I have been working on the problem.

    One of the biggest shames of the problem is that simple and effective solutions are out there if people act in advance of the introduction of bedbugs in the first place but hindsight is so often 20:20. Its still possible to deal with a light to medium case with the correct knowledge and a lot of attention to detail. However once dispersed through mistreatment the problem can be extremely complex to deal with.

    If you want to see from other non-professionals please look at the threads about bedbugs dropping down from ceilings, they can do it and isolating yourself is one way to encourage them to do it.

    David

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  28. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Sep 12 2014 10:40:30
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I stand by my statements. This did work. The point is that you have to catch it early which
    is what I did here. I caught the problem at the point where there were at most 100 bed bugs
    in the room.

    I think my method would have worked in the earlier instance where I had 1000 bed bugs
    distributed between my bed and the couch in my living room. (with the overwhelming number
    in the bed room).

    The cases you speak of where it does not work either had an overwhelming infestation or
    transfer had occurred to other parts of the apartment via hitchhiking. If I had a dog and
    let it loose in the bedroom and not closed interior doors and that dog was unconstrained
    bed bugs can be spread throughout the apartment via hitchhiking.

    In both of my two cases in particular, I did not encounter bed bugs on the ceiling that you
    speak of. I have found that bed bugs prefer to travel along the walls and on hard surfaces
    in general. In the first situation with 1000 bed bugs, I vacuumed numerous times
    per directive and did not find a single bed bug when dumping the dirt I collected.

  29. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Sep 12 2014 11:08:59
    #



    Login to Send PM

    You also state that my solution is a 'simple' one. It is definitely not a simple solution. When
    I first brought up this solution about a year ago to others, I could generate no interest in it
    as they did not want to live in discomfort (without a standard bed) and wait a year for
    all the bed bugs to die while living with this discomfort (sleeping on a cot or hammock
    in the kitchen).

    A 'simple' solution would be one that could be done in a short period of time. We know
    some have been successful with the brute force solution which was discussed earlier
    and has known problems that have been pointed out and involves throwing out affected
    furniture and using a combination of pesticides and cleaning in the near location of
    that affected piece of furniture. Even Batzner (see link to Gitte Laasby article I sent
    earlier) admits that people have been successful without their help in remediating
    bed bug problems. I assume they were referring to the simple brute force solution
    and Gitte cites an example of that in her article.

  30. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Sep 12 2014 11:13:56
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Chicagobbordrocks,

    Actually the cases I speak of were not all advanced as in greater than 2000 bugs, some were very light cases but the step of isolation dispersed them in some cases, aerosol use in others and avoidance of the room in some. In fact its not just me that has seen this, others on the forum have reported it and even a few professionals will try and argue that it does not happen.

    I would also point out that my work on early detection and simple protocols such as Treatment by Passive Monitor replacement are a lot more efficient than what you have outlines as well as being more cost effective and less toxic to the home. In such situation people can detect down to a single bedbug being brought in and thus resolve in a matter of minutes, more established infestation do not occur because they are never allowed to develop to the 100+ bedbug stage because they are always detected before that stage.

    While I appreciate you did not notice bedbugs on the ceiling, others have, both people dealing with bedbugs and professionals working on cases. As such please do not give people the impression that just because something has not been seen in your extremely limited experience that it does not occur. I have been working on bedbugs for longer than anyone else in the world and have successfully treated over 25,000 properties including in over 7 countries around the world.

    I am not saying this did not work for you but it may also not work for others, in my experience there are cases that do not fit into the standard model which is why its better to be fluid about how you deal with an infestation based on the circumstances of the case rather than attempting to find a universal "protocol".

    There is also the time factor as people want rid of bedbugs quickly and efficiently not slow and painstakingly.

    David

  31. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Sep 13 2014 9:48:30
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In reply to the latest message I want to point out your extensive experience consists of only
    seeing the aftermath of what has happened over a period of time. Frequently, exterminators
    will provide pictures but this is after the fact - after the sequence of events that led to the
    problem occurred. My experience though limited consists of actually experiencing what happened from start to finish. (and reflecting on what happened over that time period to prevent the problem in the future)

    I will point out also that overemphasis on individual bed bugs out in the open not constituting
    an infestation has led to cases where an infestation is mistakenly reported and the exterminators are called out when there is in fact no problem. There may be individual bed bugs out in the open
    that were seen and hid but they are small in number and do not infest any couches, lounge
    chairs, beds or harborage areas you speak of. Wil-Kil charges $600 in my area just to bring
    bed bug dogs out for an inspection. I actually know of a case where the property manager
    got irate after a resident reported just seeing bed bugs (no bites) and Wil-Kil was called out
    with their bed bugs and charged $600 with no problem found. These are the cases of the so
    called 'false positive' (reported problem but no problem) You refer to a low cost method
    other than this to detect individual bed bugs at low cost but that is not used in my area (at least
    as of 2 years ago).

    Since the exterminators goal is to kill all bed bugs in an apartment (the reason the extermination
    is such high cost), conversely that means that residents report the problem whenever they
    see even one bed bug in the apartment. This leads to the false positive situation I refer to above.

    This (overreacting to individual bed bugs) prevents landlords from creating lease addendums regarding bed bugs which would be greatly helpful in alleviating this problem by providing information about this pest. Besides the standard information in a lease addendum at a minimum the following information should be provided:

    (1) The complete cost of remediating a bed bug problem using an extermination service so
    everyone knows how much this costs. This would include the cost of bedbug dog
    inspections, the chemical treatment method and the heat treatment method. In
    regard to (2) below it should be pointed out that bed bug encasements are typically
    used in the first case because chemicals cannot penetrate to the interior of a mattress
    to kill bed bugs. It should also be pointed out that the bed should not be moved or the
    mattresses moved in any way as this could cause the bed bug encasements to rip. When
    the latter happens, the heat treatment typically is done to kill off the bugs in the bed
    and the encasements and typically no longer then needed in that case. (because heat
    penetrates to the interior of the bed) This escalates the cost even further.

    (2) Information about the bed bug encasements and cost, removal of the head board from
    the bed (in case there is a bed bug infestation there) and clearing clutter from the vicinity of
    the bed within the bed bug detection radius of 8 feet of the bed. This supplementary
    information (in addition to any cleaning done) is vital to preventing the 'no win' situation
    in the bed from arising. This is absolutely the major reason why the exterminators are
    called out because the resident (even if very clean) cannot deal with. (unless they throw the
    bed out) I will point out that the same problem does not occur for the other
    pieces of furniture involved that I spoke of, the sofa and the lounge chair. Typically,
    those are turned over to indicate to the resident that he should not use them as further
    infestation will occur through biting of the resident, and hitchhiking to other pieces of
    furniture is possible. There are alternatives to the sofa and lounge chair but there is
    no alternative to the bed. (at least one that you think of when the events related to bed bug
    infestation occur).

    Also, the reason encasements are used to be explained to the resident: To keep the bed bugs
    in the mattresses in, and keep the bed bugs outside of the mattress out. In the first instance,
    the infestation within the mattress is prevented as the bed bugs within the mattress are
    reproducing within the mattress.

  32. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Sep 13 2014 10:37:09
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Chicagobbordrocks,

    Sorry but again your assumptions as to what i actually do are very far from reality. Let me give you some examples:


      I treat infestations that vary from 1 bedbug to 150,000+
      I train hotel staff on how to detect and eradicate bedbugs in minutes
      I work with architects to optimise building design to avoid the spread of bedbugs

    I also do not use encasements, I think they are a vile con perpetrated by rogues and con artists and would rather go out of business than endorse that false belief.

    We screen properties for bedbugs and detect down to a single bedbug for less than $100 and treat for about $175 per room so please don't assume I am making out like a bandit because I am not. I make a good and honest living and provide a world class service at a reasonable cost.

    I have also provided simple protocols using methods such as Treatment by Passive Monitor Replacement which are designed to help people with limited financial resources but abundant labor to resolve their own infestations in as little as 14 days without the use of chemicals.

    I would again invite you to actually stop and read up on the subject and in fact read up on who I am and what I do to help people. Part of that helping people is not allow myths, bad information and fallacies to perpetuate which is precisely why I am engaging with you to try and explain why you are barking up the wrong tree on this occasion.

    One classic is this "inside the mattress" even the more basic and thus accessible FAQs will confirm they do not live inside mattress unless there are rips or access points.

    Please if you want to actually help people make sure what your are advocating is the best that you can advocate and that it actually works.

    Regards,

    David

  33. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 9:42:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    If bed bug encasements are a ripoff then why is there a section on your website for them.
    Shouldn't you state your previsos regarding them in that website?

    In my first situation, the technician put them on. I wasn't aware of the restriction you
    were referring to. I would think it wouldn't take much time before the problems with the
    mattress would occur requiring the need for them.

    Also, as far as your vast experience, I will point out that Aristotle and Ptolemy in Physics
    and Astronomy where thought to be experts for many hundreds of years, and the Scientific
    Revolution was rejected out of hand based on their supposed 'expertise'. Your expertise
    may end up falling in a similar category.

    You only see the problem after the fact (after it has happened). If you don't do a root cause
    after an incident in conversation with the victims of a bed bug episode, you can't be aware of
    the scenario as it played out for them in their situation. You can only infer or speculate on
    what happened.

    I stand by my statements that the victimization of people as regards bed bugs must be stopped.
    What is going on here is victimization plain and simple and is the basis for the lawsuits that
    have occurred. People need to be informed about encasements and the conditions of their
    use (based on your further information) and about infestations that can occur in the headboard.
    Also, they need to be informed about clearing clutter within an 8 foot radius of the bed.

    As they say in science, question authority because they can be wrong. This
    was the recent emphasis on the Cosmos series with Neil DeGrasse Tyson that you may
    have seen. He stated it at the beginning of the series and at the end.

  34. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 9:58:44
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Regarding cost of bed bug remediation by exterminators: It is expensive in my area for
    apartment complexes (of large size) because typically, the apartment complex covers the
    cost of remediation (exclusive of the cost for encasements and removal of furniture). If
    the cost of the basic remediation was sufficiently low, I assume they would have it charged to the resident. This is an issue for the small mom and pop apartment complexes of a small number
    of units. DNS for a city in my area recommended the two parties split the cost (due to the
    significant size) in one case reported in the news in 2013. A lawyer in my area referred to the
    issue of cost in an article stating that the apartment complex may cover the cost.

    It could also be that apartment complexes cover the cost because they recognize the
    victimization factor for a resident who has first encountered a bed bug problem. People
    really need to be informed about the cost (for the area they live in) in the lease so every one is aware of it.

    You may exterminate for a lower cost than this, but I am reporting what I have seen in my
    area. I am not specifically stating anything about you in particular. Evidentally you are
    aware of the cost of extermination, and are taking measures regarding it's limitation. I am
    certain your clients appreciate this.

  35. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 10:16:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I think you confused my statements about victimization and the high cost of bed bug
    remediation. Let me state this: With the knowledge of what bed bug exterminators
    in fact do, I think their costs are perfectfully reasonable. Their goal is to kill all bed bugs
    in your apartment. Since bed bugs are small (at most 1/4 inch) and hide, this I will
    have to admit is an expensive process. Also, you have stated reasons why this is necessary
    (to avoid the problems with reproduction associated with sofas, lounge chairs and beds.

    What I am stating is this information needs to be upfront in the lease so claims of victimization
    are avoided. If the costs are stated upfront, and victimization situation that occurs in sofas,
    lounge chairs and beds is pointed out both in the lease, this would be a great help especially
    as regards any lawsuits that may occur.

    Again as I state, I have no problem with the cost of bed bug remediation. The costs need to
    be stated upfront in the lease, and the explanation as to the magnitude of the costs should
    be provided (because you are in fact killing all bed bugs in a person's apartment). Thus, I have no particular issue with the bed bug extermination cost as a separate issue as regards bed bug infestation incidents. My only requirement is that the current cost (separate statement
    for chemical and thermal remediation) should be stated. It should not be assumed when
    making these statements that the situation of ripped encasements occurs (requiring the
    switch as I mentioned from the chemical to the thermal method).

    Also, as regards encasements and my previous note, I see that you state on that portion of your
    website both views for and against. In my first incident case as well as my second, encasements
    were used. The mattresses in both cases are old and have the problems you discussed that
    would require their use.

  36. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 10:18:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks - 34 minutes ago  » 
    If bed bug encasements are a ripoff then why is there a section on your website for them.
    Shouldn't you state your previsos regarding them in that website?

    Please provide a link to this to support that statement.

    David

  37. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 11:19:29
    #



    Login to Send PM

    David,

    You didn't see this note yet to my last message as regards your last statement:

    Also, as regards encasements and my previous note, I see that you state on that portion of your
    website both views for and against. In my first incident case as well as my second, encasements
    were used. The mattresses in both cases are old and have the problems you discussed that
    would require their use.

  38. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 11:34:42
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks,

    Again please provide a link to this because I am not aware of where I have expressed any pro encasement views.

    David

  39. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Sep 15 2014 23:51:54
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks,

    Are you working under the incorrect assumption that Bedbugger.com is David's website? Because we do have an encasements page with pros and cons.

  40. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 7:38:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    YIKES !

    Stumbling onto this thread a brief glance reveals that there's much misinformation posted.

    A few comments thereof:

    Bed Bug Business & Potential Profits:
    > There are about 20K professional pest service provider companies in the US.
    > Not all of these companies are actively engaged in bed bug while others are.
    > The revenues/profits sighted above may be cumulative for an entire year. Additionally, such companies have "operational business plans" which call for increased revenue targets year over year.
    > Note that these year over year increases include incremental sales as well as increased pricing.
    > It may surprise you that there are some companies that have decided to do LESS, LIMITED or NO bed bug work for various reasons. Such reasons include:
    * The work is not nearly as profitable for them as other pest work is.
    * The work is labor intensive and the "opportunity cost" is to great to justify taking on bed bug work at the cost of not having staff to conduct the more profitable work.
    * The significant liability associated with bed bug work.

    > Is bed bug work in the US too costly or overly priced?
    * No, not really.
    * We must understand that bed bug work is labor intensive and the best companies are sending at least two technicians to do the comprehensive and thorough work required.
    * Depending upon your location in the US, the hourly rate for such work is priced at about $100 to $150 per man hour and there are some companies that may charge more than this. Multiply this rate times your crew, times total hours for the job and it adds up quickly.

    > These pro pest company entrepreneurs are entitled to earn a profit. If you were in their shoes you'd be in the position of deciding between sending your techs to do either, say, a cockroach job or a bed bug job:
    * In such instances one tech may be able to do a number of cockroach jobs per day successfully thus doubling the job production v. a bed bug job which would require more hours to complete while occupying two techs.
    * The roach job can be completed successfully often times in just one visit and is often followed by regular service thereafter for a period of time. This regular service increases "recurring revenues" thus building the business overall. However, nearly all competent bed bug pros here in the US schedule bed bug services for an initial service plus two follow ups. These multiple visits and hours required may not be invoiced at the "regular" rate in an effort to keep prices down.

    Comments on "Chicago's" Assertions, Limited Data & Experience:
    > While I get that you've experienced bed bugs, apparently at least twice now, your experiences, observations and inferences based upon limited experience, misinformation from dubious sources, information taken out of context, etc. render the assertions posted less than credible and, simply stated, incorrect.

    > This said, I think it's fair and reasonable to state that we all get that folks find their way to this BBF in search of assistance with their bed bug concerns. Over time, we've seen many flavors of this coming from various points in the country and beyond.

    > It's fair and reasonable to state that the intended purpose of the BBF is to provide an open platform for folks to pose their questions and seek responses from those who participate here.

    > Participants here include various levels from laypersons to highly trained and experienced professionals.

    > While each holds good intentions on providing guidance and assistance, none are compensated for the time and effort they expend or put into such efforts.

    > People are people and with that comes varying degrees of extraneous and gratuitous information. There are differing opinions, differing methodologies, varying experience, varying knowledge basis and other factors which all weigh into the comments and assertions posted herein.

    > Some folks choose to argue with the very folks they seek advice from which is likely ill advised. It seems that such folks may be better served to continue their personal research, seek additional information from various sources, check to assure that the sources are credible and then make an informed decision on what's best.

    Overall, it seems that when a thread takes the direction that this one has, and mind you I have NOT gone all the way back to the original question here, that the original question and person seeking assistance thereof has become otherwise "lost in the sauce" and when this occurs one wonders, what good has been served by all this wasted time effort.

    So Chicago person, if you have additional questions or concerns because you're still experiencing a bed bug issue, please feel free to post such questions on perhaps a new thread and let's all start over in an effort to help someone that legitimately requires assistance. If not, well . . .

    Have a nice day ! pjb

  41. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 12:24:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I was under the assumption that David's website was bedbugger.com. The link for encasements
    is at the top of the bedbugger.com website.

    As regards my first experience with bed bugs and encasements (1000 bed bugs) please note
    the following:

    (1) Property Management of the Apartment Complex took charge of the overall remediation.
    The chemical method was used, and in that case, the pesticide cannot penetrate to the
    interior of a mattress. The mattresses I had as I pointed out already have holes in them, so this
    is apparently the reason that bed bugs were still alive in the mattresses after the chemical
    treatment was applied. (my current mattresses where I now live also have holes in them
    and are a different set of mattresses)

    (2) The Pesticide company decided my bed could be saved and provided their encasements
    which they put on the two mattresses. They stated that they did not trust commercial
    encasements. The brand of the encasements provided is the same brand however that
    is carried one of Walmart/Boston Store. I forget which. They (pesticide company) denied
    that they in effect where providing me with encasements from a commercial source.
    They insisted that the encasements provided were their own private encasement brand.

    One of encasements provided by the Pesticide company did rip after that point, and I had to
    buy another encasement from them. They then recommended that I not move the bed/mattresses in any
    way to prevent future tears. After that point there were no tears.

    In my second bed bug case (100 bed bugs), I used encasements from Boston Store, and
    I have a backup set (also from Boston Store) which I can use in case I have a problem in the future. I will point out
    in that second case, that one reason I repaired to the kitchen, and used a cot there was
    because of the issue with the fragility of bed bug encasements regarding tears. In this
    second situation also, I did not move the bed or mattresses at all of course once I put the encasements on the mattresses to prevent tears. There are no tears in the encasements
    at this point in time in the second situation (I resumed sleeping on the bed after staying
    one year in kitchen).

    I will note also as regards the second bed bug case that besides other issues I have already
    stated (difficulty sleeping on a cot etc), that would mitigate against using my method by others, there is the issue of cost.
    I estimate, I have spent over $200 which includes the backup encasements. Also, I went
    through 2 cots in the one year I slept out in the kitchen. (the current cot is still serviceable)
    I use the Coleman brand of cot from Walmart which costs $60.

  42. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 12:36:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As regards comments made by the last person regarding my two experiences with bed bugs,
    I state again: I actually experienced the problem from start to finish.

    Though David has experience remediating bed bugs he only sees the problem once it happens.
    This means that in many cases he can only extrapolate from that point in time what I occurred
    prior to that back to the inception of the problem. In other words he could make assumptions that
    may be invalid.

    I make my point again about any scientific enterprise: Question Authority. (from Cosmos)
    What your assume is true today may not be true in the future.

    This is especially true as regards bed bugs. After all, most of them are hidden from our view.
    We have to make assumptions about them and their movement because most of them we don't
    see. It is difficult to do even do experimentation from a laboratory standpoint to determine
    what is going on.

    One example is the estimates we have been giving about numbers of bed bugs. They are only
    estimates. We cannot be certain of their accuracy exactly because we can't see the vast majority
    of the bed bugs. A person not informed that I had bed bugs in first scenario probably would
    not even know they were there even though there we an estimated 1000 bed bugs because
    the vast majority of them are hidden from view.

    Thus, I'll admit I am making assumptions when I make statements about them, but Dave is
    making them as well.

  43. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 12:47:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Dear Chicago,

    The assumptions and assertions posted are incorrect and/or a stretch of certain possibilities at best.

    If you have specific questions you'd like answered, please post them.

    If you want to further pontificate, theorize and post additional erroneous information here then, I'm out. I'm way to busy and only checking in looking to help people with genuine need and legitimate questions.

    Have a nice day ! pjb

  44. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 13:07:11
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Regarding the last post. Research I would trust would come from the scientific community.
    The below for example is from Wikipedia regarding the movement of bed bugs. In my
    second situation, with the door closed to my bedroom and at most 100 bed bugs in the room
    as far as I could ascertain no bed bugs came into my vicinity at all in the kitchen while I used
    the cot for sleeping. The below states that when they search for food on average every 5 to 7 days.

    The research I have seen about detection limit for carbon dioxide detection of mammals
    by bed bugs is an 8 foot radius. Obviously some limit applies. You can look on the Wikipedia
    site to see if there is more information. There is also information there on mating etc
    by searching on 'bed bugs'.

    As regards bed bugs in first situation (1000 bed bugs): I killed many bed bugs that were filled with my blood out in the open I would say within the 8 foot radius of my bed.

    Host searching[edit]

    Cimex lectularius only feed every five to seven days, which suggests that they do not spend the majority of their life searching for a host. When a bed bug is starved, it leaves its shelter and searches for a host. If it successfully feeds, it returns to its shelter. If it does not feed, it continues to search for a host. After searching—regardless of whether or not it has eaten—the bed bug returns to the shelter to aggregate before the photophase (period of light during a day-night cycle). Reis argues that there are two reasons why the Cimex lectularius would return to their shelter and aggregate after feeding. One of the reasons is to find a mate and the other is to find shelter to avoid getting smashed after eating.[65]

  45. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 13:17:30
    #



    Login to Send PM

    From my first experience (1000 bed bugs) I am almost certain that hitchhiking was the means by which the vast majority (probably all) of the bed bugs got into my bed. I talked about laying a piece of clothing on the sofa at night (I was not using the sofa to sit on since I was using it for
    storage), and then putting it on at night and sleeping. Thus, bed bugs during the day could
    crawl onto this piece of clothing.

    This was symbiotic, because in the morning I would put that piece of clothing back on the sofa
    allowing further bed bugs during the day to crawl onto that piece of clothing (which I would
    I would then put on at night when I went to bed and so on).

    Thus, the problem was exacerbated by the continual use of the sofa to store this particular
    piece of clothing during the day. Had I not made continual use of the sofa in this manner,
    the 'crossfertilization' so to speak between the sofa and be may not have occurred leading
    to the significant problem in my bed (as I said, most of the 1000 bed bugs at the point
    where pesticides were applied were in the bed).

    I had noticed bed bugs on the sofa prior to the point where I started to use this piece
    of clothing with the onset of winter at the start of December, but at that point didn't know
    they were bed bugs and didn't do anything about it. As I have stated earlier it was estimated that
    there were bed bugs in the sofa for a period of 3 months prior to the time I started to use
    the piece of clothing I refer to above in the aforementioned fashion. During that 3 months
    there were absolutely no bedbugs in my bed as far as I could tell, and none walked from the
    sofa into my bedroom during that time.

  46. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 13:26:01
    #



    Login to Send PM

    With regard to my last note and a pesticide technician's comment that 'bed bugs figure things out',
    his comment could apply here. I was putting the piece of clothing on the sofa during the
    day and wearing it at night in the bed. The 'bed bugs figured out' that I was doing this
    and started to sit on the clothing during the day awaiting my arrival at night when I would
    subsequently take that piece of clothing and wear it in the bed.

  47. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 13:36:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Regarding my last two notes: I didn't see any bed bugs on the piece of clothing on my sofa
    when I put it on at night (I didn't look). Thus, I can't prove for certain that the hitchhiking
    I refer to was occurring. It however does explain the subsequent infestation in my bed
    starting in Dec, following the infestation in my sofa that was ongoing for three months
    prior to that.

  48. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 13:44:35
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Chicagobbordrocks,

    Yes as you now realize, I contribute and support this site with accurate information.

    I will again point out that I work not only to resolve active infestations but to also design buildings to limit the impact of bedbugs. Sorry sorry again your assumption that I only see cases once active is again incorrect.

    As I am not duty bound to assist people I am going to extract myself from interacting this you beyond advising others not to follow any further bad advice you post.

    I sincerely hope you resolve you infestation in a timely fashion.

    David

  49. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Sep 16 2014 14:23:56
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks - 1 hour ago  » 
    I was under the assumption that David's website was bedbugger.com. The link for encasements
    is at the top of the bedbugger.com website.

    I own and run Bedbugger.com. I am just a person who had bed bugs and am not in the bed bug treatment business (or otherwise in the pest industry).

    The forum you are posting on -- the Bedbugger Forums-- is part of Bedbugger.com.

  50. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 9:35:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    One of the key issues in the discussion in this thread relates to how bed bugs get from place
    to place. As we are all aware there are two ways to do this: (1) hitchhiking and (2) walking.

    I was thinking about the issue of walking for bed bugs as it is central to the assumptions
    we are making. I also thought about the comments made about bed bugs searching for
    new hosts from Wikipedia.

    I came across the below article from Wikipedia about foraging and random walks. A common
    example of a random walk with which we are all familiar is that of a drunken person walking
    about. His motion is random moving forward, backward and to the sides at random and not
    walking in the same direction.

    The below article talks about modeling foraging based on random walks. Foraging would be
    exactly what a bed bug is doing when it looking for a new host when the current host on
    a bed, sofa or lounge chair as been absent for a long time or a bed bug is out in the open not
    in any of those pieces of furniture.

    If this is the case this would explain the success I had in my second case (100 bed bugs). If
    a bed bug is moving via a random walk while foraging it would be improbable that bugs
    would travel from my bed room to the kitchen.

    Similarly, in the 1000 bed bug case in the absence of hitchhiking the probably would be low
    that bed bugs would travel from the sofa to my bed in the bed room. Hitchhiking guarantees
    transport, but actual walks by bed bugs from the sofa to the bed do not guarantee that
    if a random walk is involved.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9vy_flight_foraging_hypothesis

  51. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 9:45:22
    #



    Login to Send PM

    All,

    Below is another article from Wikipedia linking random walks with foraging, e.g. that
    foraging by animals (which would include bed bugs) can be modeled as a random walk
    or colloquially as the random motion of a drunken person moving about. A bed bug
    would be foraging when it is looking for a new host when the present host is absent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_walk

  52. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 10:00:52
    #



    Login to Send PM

    All,

    Below is an extensive article on the random walk foraging I referred to in the
    previous article. Random walks would preclude unidirectional motion from
    one place to another.

    Also, they talk about whether animals remember foraging in a particular location
    where they could not find a host so they would remember not to go there in
    future foraging.

    In particular for the 1/4 bed bug I doubt that they would have this capability
    lowering the probability still further that they would travel from one particular
    location to a remote one.

    http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=bioscibehavior

  53. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 10:20:28
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Gentlemen,

    Random walk foraging would explain in particular two things I've mentioned from
    the Gitte Laasby article. In one article, a man just had bed bugs in his bed and none
    in his living room and in particular in his couch. He repaired to the couch in his
    living room to sleep there with no problem while sleeping there for over a year.
    There was no hitchhiking so the bugs in the bed room are left to forage in a random
    walk fashion with with very little possibility of ending up in his living room in
    his sofa.

    Similarly, this explains why in the second article there was little worry that
    bed bugs would forage their way in the women's daughters bed room to
    her bed from the infested piece of furniture in the living room.

    This also explains why in the many cases of the use of the brute force method
    of bed bug remediation we have talked about where a piece of furniture is
    thrown out that only one piece of furniture is involved and does not involve
    several. If you remove the possibility of hitchhiking it is unlikely to occur.

    Chicago

  54. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 10:26:45
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Gentlemen,

    I will also point out that random walk foraging by bed bugs blows a hole in the central
    notion that is central to conventional bed bug remediation: That individual bed bugs
    even out in the open and at remote locations from beds, sofas and lounge chairs
    which cause a catastrophic problem latter in those pieces of furniture later if they
    are not currently there. If they are in the living room as I pointed out in my last note, there is little possibility that they will walk to the bed room and vice versa.

    Thus, if you prevent hitchhiking you can sleep on a sofa in the living room instead of
    on a bed bug infested bed in the bedroom as in the first example cited. Also, you can
    sleep safely in the bed room for long periods if you have a bed bug infested couch
    in the living room.

    You can simply wait out the infestation in either case and save the furniture to boot.

    Chicago

  55. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 10:41:58
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Gentlemen,

    Also out the window as a result of random walk foraging by bed bugs is the idea that
    bed bugs from within my unit will move to other units by walking. This is part of the central tenet that underlies e.g. the Chicago Bed Bug Ordinance.

    Hitchhiking as always cannot be ruled out. You have to guard against letting bed bugs
    out of your unit by hitchhiking on your person or effects.

    Chicago

  56. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 15:33:35
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicago,
    I appreciate your interest in trying to analyze bed bug behavior but do you really think that you know more about bed bug behavior than people who work with the bugs all day long, and invent products to fight them?

    Two of those people have already noted they're not sticking around in this thread.

  57. atastysnack

    newbite
    Joined: Sep '14
    Posts: 22

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Sep 17 2014 19:09:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Internet 101 folks... Sometime a Wiki article isn't your best source of information. I'd rather talk to the gentlemen that deal and have studied these buggies on a daily basis...AND that graciously take time to post advice on a FREE site.

  58. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 4:33:24
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi atastysnack,

    We also have some good female participants to the forum and industry.

    You are correct though the real understanding of biology comes from actually studying cases int he field and working to resolve them. I used to say it takes 3,000+ cases before you can justify using the word expert in describing yourself and the harsh reality is that standard means there are very few experts and an increasing number of partially educated keyboard warriors.

    David

  59. atastysnack

    newbite
    Joined: Sep '14
    Posts: 22

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 8:51:35
    #



    Login to Send PM

    My gentleman comments were more directed to his continious use.. I sincerely hope there are females!

    We find trolls everywhere... Just like the bugs I suppose.

  60. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 12:30:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As regards Wikipedia accuracy, I will point out that you can join Wikipedia and correct
    any information there you find incorrect. Their information can be challenged.

    As regards random walks and bed bugs the article from Wikipedia states that when looking
    for food (foraging), bed bugs whether they have found a host or not return to their original
    location. This means that they execute what is known as a true random walk while looking
    for a host. In a true random walk no direction is favored as they move about, and in that
    case, the bug ultimately returns to its original location. Probabilistically, many random walks
    are possible in this scenario which in all cases terminate at the original location.

    This means that bed bugs don't get anywhere in the final analysis in this search, though their
    search encompasses some circle centered on their original position. This circle lies within the
    bed room, in all likelihood which is the reason why I didn't see any bed bugs outside of the
    bed room in my time on the cot. I took extreme measures by not using the bed room, so as to
    avoid hitchhiking which as I stated earlier must be scrupulously avoided.

    Also, is the below is probably the reason you are upset with the truth of the Wikipedia?
    They cite a significantly reduced value (2 months) for the length of the life of a bed bug
    past the last point of feeding. Also, any young born after the point I left the bed are in a short time deprived of blood from their parents and they are particularly vulnerable and will die.
    Maybe this is the information that you would want to revise as well? Make sure to include
    your sources, because the Wikipedia monitors will be monitoring you:

    Also, the Wikipedia article states information regarding length of life of bed bugs past
    the last point of feeding, and a maximum value of 2 months is stated from a 2009 conference.
    The 1 year figure that is commonly stated is also discussed. Given that they forage every
    3 to 7 days, I would think the 2 month figure would be closer to the correct value. With the
    1 year figure and 3 days separating foraging attempts, they would be foraging 120 times a year.

    As I said in my first statement, all the statements listed in a Wikipedia article are open to
    revision if you have information that supports different views in these areas, but you will be monitored by the owners of Wikipedia. If you supply information be sure to cite your
    sources!

    I am citing all this information in support of my success in the second case with 100 bed bugs
    where I slept on a cot in the kitchen. The bed bugs were in my bed in the bed room in that case.
    I think it would have worked for numbers well above that given the above further information.

    Thus, if you have only bed bugs in e.g. your bed in the bed room, I would recommend not using
    the bed room, closing interior doors and sleep on your sofa out in the living room as a parallel
    way of doing what I did if you can stand it. This will work, and I believe as I stated it will
    work based on the above information for numbers well above 100. And, you only have to
    do this for 2 months to boot according to the conferences information. This is called the
    'wait until they are dead method'.

    If you can't live without your bed, you can buy one and have it placed in your living room
    where the bed bugs aren't and sleep there. You can get rid of the old bed in 2 months
    after all the bed bugs have died (again according to the conference information) or keep it as a backup.

    As always, you can use the 'brute' force method we have referred to earlier if you want as
    some people have done with the bed, but make sure dispose of the bed at a hazardous waste
    site, so no others use it.

  61. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 12:38:15
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I've just started feeding my 2nd and 3rd instars after a 15 week dormant period.
    You are a terminal fool.

  62. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 12:44:09
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As regards the bed bug experts who have left the thread. I will point as I have before, that
    their experience of bed bug situations is after the fact. In my first case, if I hadn't initiated
    a discussion with the exterminator about the root cause of that problem (1000 bed bugs),
    he would not have discussed it with me. He would have just done his job and left.

    I was the person who also initiated the discussion as regards the bed bug number estimate
    of 1000.

    These experts will align the facts to support their view that their services will be needed
    in virtually all cases of bed bug infestation so they will make the maximum amount of
    money possible. Like.. bed bugs can live for a year following their last feeding. (see previous
    discussion from the supposed inaccurate Wikipedia article)

    As I stated in my last listing, anyone (even these people) can edit this Wikipedia article.
    Be sure to include your sources as the Wikipedia administrators will be watching. Also,
    is you want to challenge any information in the Wikipedia article and change it you can
    do that.

  63. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 12:51:15
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi BigDummy,

    Yes the data on that appears to be seriously incorrect. I had some alive after a 3 month gap between feedings. But as those who actually work in multiple homes and have done so for many years will confirm if food is present and bedbugs have access to it they will not enter a dormant / conserving state. If you block access to food they will eventually find a way around even if that means they must complete navy seal training first.

    I used to participate in Wikipedia but there used to be some troll who would edit out the correct information and add rubbish. To that end I believe there is or at least used to be a page that proclaimed that Julius Caesar was killed by a sandal.

    Are you still having to wait for your guests to sleep before apply the jars to feed your colonies?

    In fact to share a little more, I was in a home this afternoon where someone was talking about the various feeding videos they had seen online and the stencils that are used. They were a little taken back when I was able to tell them who was doing the feeding based on what stencils or jar protectors. They were very impressed that I knew and had met Lou Sorkin.

    David

  64. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 12:59:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BigDummy - 18 minutes ago  » 
    You are a terminal fool.

    That means there is no cure . . . right?! Hahaha! BD!!!! Where ya been?!?!?!

    bed-bugscouk - 6 minutes ago  » 
    Are you still having to wait for your guests to sleep before apply the jars to feed your colonies?

    Very funny!!!

    bed-bugscouk - 6 minutes ago  » 
    . . . They were very impressed that I knew and had met Lou Sorkin.

    Well who the heck wouldn't be?!?! I mean seriously!!!

  65. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 15:26:07
    #



    Login to Send PM

    No doubt about them seeking out food sources as opposed to going dormant, I've had to deal with that on more than one occasion; mine luckily are contained, so they have no choice. Merely pointing out that two months is BS.
    Abs, I was in Mexico for a wedding. Those Mayans know how to throw a party. Two day celebration, my liver is scorched.

  66. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 16:17:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BigDummy - 48 minutes ago  » 
    Abs, I was in Mexico for a wedding. Those Mayans know how to throw a party. Two day celebration, my liver is scorched.

    LOL! Well sometimes that's the price one has to pay for a good time, eh?!

    Here's an experiment for you to try . . . once your liver is back up to par . . .

    Drink as much as you can (just a tad shy of liver scorching) . . . feed your pets . . . and see if you can give them little bed bug hangovers!!! (Just for the sake of f*cking with them!)

    (You were missed!)

  67. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 16:20:30
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BigDummy - 52 minutes ago  » 
    Abs, I was in Mexico for a wedding. Those Mayans know how to throw a party. Two day celebration, my liver is scorched.

    WAIT A MINUTE!! You just mess'n with me/us?! . . .

    . . . Or were you with that missing group of women that was in Mexico for the bachelorette party?! . . .

    The ones that were lost during the hurricane and just now showed back up?!

  68. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Thu Sep 18 2014 18:17:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Was completely unaware of the weather on that side of Mexico, I like to hang around the Yucatan. "I'll be right back, I have to wash the scotch off my eyelids." The Mexican version of the garter belt toss is way better. Run a circle around the groom, who's perched upon a chair dousing us in scotch and beer, then carry him to the bathroom, strip him down and dance around the room swinging the garments eventually culminating in the adornment of the lovely bride with his forcibly removed outfit. Complete luck, but guess who ended up with the underwear... I applied them to Gabriela like a tiara, amazingly she did not stab me. She then returns the clothes to Gilberto and it's time for another drink.

  69. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Fri Sep 19 2014 8:57:31
    #



    Login to Send PM

    BigDummy - 14 hours ago  » 
    The Mexican version of the garter belt toss is way better. Run a circle around the groom, who's perched upon a chair dousing us in scotch and beer, then carry him to the bathroom, strip him down . . .

    Now THAT sounds like a party!!!

    BigDummy - 14 hours ago  » 
    . . . dance around the room swinging the garments eventually culminating in the adornment of the lovely bride with his forcibly removed outfit. Complete luck, but guess who ended up with the underwear... I applied them to Gabriela like a tiara, amazingly she did not stab me.

    Yes, I can see where you might be concerned regarding that . . . placing, ummm, "used" men's underwear tiara-style on a bride-to-be! Kudos to Gabriela for not stabbing you! (Maybe it was the liquor?!)

    BigDummy - 14 hours ago  » 
    . . .She then returns the clothes to Gilberto and it's time for another drink.

    All's well that ends well! LMAO!!

  70. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Fri Sep 19 2014 10:16:45
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Why was I not invited?

  71. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 9:48:21
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This regards the 2 month value listed in Wikipedia as the maximum time between bed bug
    feedings. Since that value was obtained from a scientific conference there would have been
    replication involved (two experiments done for verification - in science you never take the
    word of one experimenter.

    If you don't believe this value you should do the following as a revision to my listed
    'wait until they are dead method' : After two months on your couch in the living room (not infested), you return to the bedroom (bed infested) and sit on your bed with
    the lights on. Bed bugs will come out independent of it being light or dark. They come out when
    they need food, and you are present. I did this very thing to absolutely verify infestation
    in my second situation. You have to watch closely because as we know they are only
    1/4 inch in length and could blend in with the surroundings. It is independent of light so
    you turn on the lights as bright as you want.

    If bed bugs still come out, you can wait a few days and try again. if they still come out
    wait a few more days and try again. (and again) Ace sells bed bug detection
    devices which emit carbon dioxide to attract bed bugs. These devices are not advertised
    as bed bug traps in particular, but I have found that some bed bugs get trapped in the material
    within the device.

    I don't know if it is still posted but someone advertised a somewhat large bed bug emission device that could be placed under the bed and is advertised to trap bed bugs. This also emitted carbon dioxide. You have to be careful with carbon dioxide emission devices as use of large amounts of it can be explosive. Thus, I wouldn't recommend the use of this type of device in particular.

  72. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 10:09:49
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This is a controversial post, and I am not accusing anyone in particular of the following but
    it regards my comment that it cost $600 flat to have a bed bug dog inspection done. In my area
    for a particular pesticide company, this cost as I understand it is independent of whether
    a bed bug infestation is found and the number of units inspected in an apartment complex
    when the call is made for an infestation that is limited to one unit.

    I found this after the fact and after I left my last apartment. The complete cost for remediation
    in my case was covered by the apartment complex and multiple units at that time were
    inspected. I was informed that my unit was the only one with an infestation and there was
    no problem at all in the other units. (no pesticide application necessary in the other units)

    I talked to a resident still residing on the same floor at a later date after I left, and he stated the $600 figure. It came up because a new resident on that floor (after I left) becoming aware of a previous infestation thought that she had an infestation. She contacted the property manager
    and had bed bug dog inspection done. No infestation was found. The property
    manager got upset because the apartment complex paid the $600 charge, and stated
    that if that resident had an inspection done again and nothing was found she would
    have to pay the $600 charge. The property manager also stated that the $600 charge
    was independent of whether an infestation was found and was also independent of
    the number of units inspected when an actual infestation is reported.

    I thought about this and previous comments that all charges are hourly and this statement of
    flat charge is not consistent with that. If the charge were variable for the stated situations
    (one apartment with no infestation, several apartments with only one known as infested),
    the issue of kickbacks could be involved if the apartment complex picks up the charge
    and the property manager is independent from the leasing agency. The kickbacks would
    be made from the pesticide company to the property manager. The charges for bed bug
    remediation are significant as we are aware because of the overhead involved and the
    fact that in fact all bed bugs in the dwelling are guaranteed to be dead after remediation
    is done. After pesticide application is done, there is a still further bed bug dog inspection done
    latter to verify that the problem has not resurfaced for which there is a further charge
    (another $600 according to what this property manager is stating).

    If the charge were the same as the property manager stated ($600 flat in either situation
    and independent in particular of the number of units inspected in the case where at first
    only one apartment unit is known to have an infestation), the potential for kickback is much lessened.

    There is some charge for the upfront bed bug inspection no matter what, and we know the
    purpose of the bed bug inspection is to narrow the locations where pesticide is to be applied,
    it not being initially where all the bed bugs are since they hide.

    As one of the exterminators in this thread has stated he tries to keep charges low, but the
    charges he talks about are for actual application of pesticide in the locations found by the
    bed bug dogs and not for the initial bed bug dog inspection or bed bug inspection afterward. The application of pesticide took place in my case a couple of days after the bed bug dog inspection.

    I will personally say that for my situation there, I thought that I must have gotten some of the
    bed bugs from adjoining units as I was perplexed by the population I had (1000 bed bugs),
    unaware at the time of the an obvious source of increased bed bugs within my unit:
    reproduction.

  73. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 10:37:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Also, in regard to my last note, the property manager in regard to my infestation there
    (previous apartment) stated that the other units were being inspected even though it was unknown prior to inspection whether there were bed bugs in them because that was standard practice. This must have meant because of the belief in the often quoted maxim: 'If bed bugs are in one unit, they will spread throughout the building quickly' .

    This statement was in fact made by alderwoman Debra Silverstein at the ribbon cutting ceremony for the introduction of the Chicago Bed Bug Ordinance in 2013 (started Jan. 2014). In that ordinance, if an infestation is reported in one unit, that unit is bed bug dog inspected, and if bed bugs are found there, then the units above, to the sides and below (4 other units in all) are also bed bug dog inspected also whether or not there is believed to be a bed bug inspection based on
    prior evidence. After that the actual remediation by the application of pesticide is done.

    If bed bugs are found in any of the adjoining units I presume this section of the ordinance is
    repeatedly applied - bed bug dog inspect the 4 adjoining units to that unit avoiding a
    reinspection of any units in that set previously done.

  74. Bugophobe

    newbite
    Joined: Jun '14
    Posts: 18

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 12:42:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    When I had them, I did find them in my kitchen. So there you go, I guess.

  75. No More Bites

    junior member
    Joined: May '14
    Posts: 104

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 19:43:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Chicagobbordrocks - 9 hours ago  » 
    This is a controversial post, and I am not accusing anyone in particular of the following but
    it regards my comment that it cost $600 flat to have a bed bug dog inspection done. In my area
    for a particular pesticide company, this cost as I understand it is independent of whether
    a bed bug infestation is found and the number of units inspected in an apartment complex
    when the call is made for an infestation that is limited to one unit.
    I found this after the fact and after I left my last apartment. The complete cost for remediation
    in my case was covered by the apartment complex and multiple units at that time were
    inspected. I was informed that my unit was the only one with an infestation and there was
    no problem at all in the other units. (no pesticide application necessary in the other units)
    I talked to a resident still residing on the same floor at a later date after I left, and he stated the $600 figure. It came up because a new resident on that floor (after I left) becoming aware of a previous infestation thought that she had an infestation. She contacted the property manager
    and had bed bug dog inspection done. No infestation was found. The property
    manager got upset because the apartment complex paid the $600 charge, and stated
    that if that resident had an inspection done again and nothing was found she would
    have to pay the $600 charge. The property manager also stated that the $600 charge
    was independent of whether an infestation was found and was also independent of
    the number of units inspected when an actual infestation is reported.
    I thought about this and previous comments that all charges are hourly and this statement of
    flat charge is not consistent with that. If the charge were variable for the stated situations
    (one apartment with no infestation, several apartments with only one known as infested),
    the issue of kickbacks could be involved if the apartment complex picks up the charge
    and the property manager is independent from the leasing agency. The kickbacks would
    be made from the pesticide company to the property manager. The charges for bed bug
    remediation are significant as we are aware because of the overhead involved and the
    fact that in fact all bed bugs in the dwelling are guaranteed to be dead after remediation
    is done. After pesticide application is done, there is a still further bed bug dog inspection done
    latter to verify that the problem has not resurfaced for which there is a further charge
    (another $600 according to what this property manager is stating).
    If the charge were the same as the property manager stated ($600 flat in either situation
    and independent in particular of the number of units inspected in the case where at first
    only one apartment unit is known to have an infestation), the potential for kickback is much lessened.
    There is some charge for the upfront bed bug inspection no matter what, and we know the
    purpose of the bed bug inspection is to narrow the locations where pesticide is to be applied,
    it not being initially where all the bed bugs are since they hide.
    As one of the exterminators in this thread has stated he tries to keep charges low, but the
    charges he talks about are for actual application of pesticide in the locations found by the
    bed bug dogs and not for the initial bed bug dog inspection or bed bug inspection afterward. The application of pesticide took place in my case a couple of days after the bed bug dog inspection.
    I will personally say that for my situation there, I thought that I must have gotten some of the
    bed bugs from adjoining units as I was perplexed by the population I had (1000 bed bugs),
    unaware at the time of the an obvious source of increased bed bugs within my unit:
    reproduction.

    This is very hard to read.

  76. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Sep 20 2014 20:58:52
    #



    Login to Send PM

    No More Bites - 1 hour ago  » 
    This is very hard to read.

    I tried google translate but it can back with the suggestion it may have been written in trollish.

  77. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Sep 21 2014 12:30:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Stop hijacking my thread, this is supposed to be about a Mexican wedding...

  78. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 17,944

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Sep 21 2014 13:06:38
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi BD,

    Sorry you lost that right when it appears you lost my invite. If your not sharing why should we be caring?

  79. No More Bites

    junior member
    Joined: May '14
    Posts: 104

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Sun Sep 21 2014 14:17:10
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The way the post is written is not in the typical way we were taught in school. Makes it difficult to read it properly.
    It took a lot of effort to make it that way.

  80. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 11:02:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    In regards to my last comments and the issue of kickbacks to the property manager:

    The Chicago Bed Bug Ordinance has this to say about bed bug pesticide extermination charges
    for apartments (it also covers condos which I am not talking about here):

    (1) The apartment complex pays the charges not the resident(s).

    (2) The apartment complex must maintain an itemized listing/receipt of all
    charges available for viewing by city officials.

    This gets back to the issue of the possibility that the charges may be excessive which the
    bed bug exterminators claim (at least for the cases they have worked on) is not the case.
    I am merely pointing out in my last post that there are two potential ways in which there
    could be overcharging:

    (1) There is an overly excessive profit or charges for work not done which is entirely
    collected by the pesticide company, or

    (2) The same is true with some portion of that amount paid as a kickback or 'finder's fee'
    to the apartment property manager involved.

    I will point out that the Chicago Bed Bug ordinance was the result of input by:

    (1) Apartment Associations,

    (2) Tenant Associations,

    (3) Landlord Associations,

    (4) Condo Associations,

    (5) The Bed Bug Pesticide people,

    (6) The City of Chicago

    Thus, if an exhaustive bed bug ordinance (Chicago's is 8 pages long) was come up with in
    your community, the result likely would be the Chicago Bed Bug Ordinance. Thus, the
    conclusions I come to above likely would apply in your community.

    I already listed earlier what is done when an infestation is found with respect to the unit
    and adjoining units being investigated via Bed Bug dog inspection being done. In my
    first situation (1000 bed bugs), the claim by the property manager is that a $600 flat
    charge is charged for bed bug inspections whether there is 1 unit (non-infested -
    the false positive case), 1 unit (infested), or multiple units (in my case 8 - with only
    one unit infested and the other 7 turning out to have no infestation at all). This would
    be independent of the number of units involved which I find hard to believe.

    I question whether what was stated by the property manager was the case. Based on
    what was stated by the Bed Bug pesticide exterminators, the charge is variable for bed bug
    inspections and is more when more units are inspected. If this is the case, the
    possibility of overprofits for the bed bug exterminators and/or kickbacks for the
    property manager arises.

  81. Koebner

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 747

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 11:24:00
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Fascinated by this Mexican undressing custom - wonder if it's a cleaned-up version of medieval european wedding practices in which the bride & groom would be accompanied to the wedding chamber & put to bed by the wedding party?

  82. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 11:42:51
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I forwarded the following to others and am listing the below on this thread to reiterate
    the fact that bed bugs (1/4 inch pest max size) are not human beings. This regards their
    supposed ability to autmatically walk enmass from one location (where the food source
    was) to a new location (where the food source is now in another completely different
    room) Some tend to anthromorphize the pest exaggerating it's capibilities. I make the comparison below to lemings in their execution of random walks in search of the food source, and that is a higher order species and that is an apt comparison

    I noticed that some people treat bed bugs as though they

    were human beings. After you leave a bed room with a bed that is infested,

    and move to the living room, the thought would be that (if bed bugs were human)

    that they would eventually know that and move enmass to your new location.

    Our ancestors were hunters and gatherers and because of their intelligence

    would be able to act as a group to detect that game in the area had been depleted

    (the equivalent circumstance of the food source disappearing for bed bugs

    in the bed room), discuss this amongst themselves (or use handsignals in the

    absence of language) and move to a new location.

    Bed bugs even though they are a community do not have this capability.

    They behave like lemings and continue to execute random walks in/on your

    bed in the bed room in a vain attempt to find the food source. This is why

    what I did at my new location worked (sleep on a cot in the kitchen while

    bed bugs were in bed in bed room).

  83. Koebner

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 747

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 12:19:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Now I come to think of it, those wedding chamber customs were, IIRC, largely of the more northern european sort. I'm fairly hazy on Iberian antics, though do recall a notable variabilty in Spanish matrimonial custom. An interesting evening's reading in prospect...

  84. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 12:24:00
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The bouquet toss, the cake, everything else seemed to be fairly standard. No clue where the stripping of the groom came from.

  85. buggyinsyracuse

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '12
    Posts: 555

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 15:05:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    The bouquet toss, the cake, everything else seemed to be fairly standard. No clue where the stripping of the groom came from.

    Tequila?

  86. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,548

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 15:28:16
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Oddly enough, no. We were generously doused in scotch, then beer. My guayabera survived the ordeal.

  87. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Mon Sep 22 2014 15:32:55
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Bugophobe - 2 days ago  » 
    When I had them, I did find them in my kitchen. So there you go, I guess.

    Word! ! There have also been posts about finding them in coffee pots (ummmm, which was in the kitchen), etc.!

    BigDummy - 1 day ago  » 
    Stop hijacking my thread, this is supposed to be about a Mexican wedding...

    FUNNY!!!!!

  88. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Tue Sep 23 2014 13:09:37
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As regards bed bugs in the kitchen, I had none in either of my situations. In the first situation,
    I apparently avoided any hitchhiking event from occurring inadvertently from either the
    sofa in the living room, or bed in the bed room.

    In my second situation, I was scrupulous in avoiding hitchhiking by making my bed room
    offlimits by shutting the door and not using the bed room for a year. This forced bed bugs
    to walk from bed room to my cot in the kitchen, which as I stated to my best knowledge did
    not occur (and will not occur with sufficiently low numbers [I had 100] given the way they
    forage for food). Bed bugs were only in my bedroom in my second situation (in sofa and
    bed for my first situation).

    I agree bed bugs will be in the kitchen if you let them hitchhike there by some means. I could
    have laid the book (with bed bugs in it - I believe this was the cause from my first situation) on kitchen table for example and bed bugs would have been in the kitchen automatically.

    As we know now from Wikipedia, I did not need to decamp to kitchen on my cot for
    my second scenario for a whole year. 2 months suffices according to the latest scientific
    information regarding the maximum time a bed bug lives between feedings.

  89. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Sep 24 2014 9:43:46
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I will point out that use of sofas, cots or hammocks as an alternative to the bed cannot be
    forced on you by a landlord as a way around a bed bug problem in the way I am
    referring to here. That would amount to constructive eviction since you cannot be forced
    to live without the comfort of a bed. Some people may not want to live without a bed
    (even for the maximum of 2 months we are talking about) in any event.

    Also, someone pointed out that bed bugs can have a significant defecation (I believe it
    was respect to a bed bug defecating from a position on the ceiling). They can ingest
    up to 6 times their weight in your blood, so once they process that there can be significant
    defecation. This is one way to detect their presence in your bed. I had defecation stains
    on my pillow from last infestation (100 bed bugs).

  90. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Sep 24 2014 9:51:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I will point out also that if bed bugs are in the kitchen and there are no sofas, lounge chairs
    or beds there, in 2 months they will be dead (cannot survive more than 2 months between
    feedings). I should have stated it that way when I initially stated that the 1-800-GOTJUNK
    people stated that the exterminators never find bed bugs in the kitchen. It's true as I
    stated in my note from two notes ago that they can be placed there either directly or
    via hitchhiking from another location, but once there they will be dead in 2 months
    time for the reason previously noted. Because of their foraging patterns it will not
    happen that they will move to another location where there are sofas, lounge chairs
    and/or beds.

    At my last apartment, I would have had a choice between the kitchen and the dining room
    in which to use a cot if I used my method there. Bed bugs also were not in the dining room
    there. There is no physical separation between the kitchen/dining room and the living room
    there. As I stated, even with 1000 bed bugs (between sofa in living room and bed in bed room),
    I think using a cot in either the kitchen (or dining room now) would have worked.

    Also, bed bugs when they ingest your blood (up to 6 times their weight in blood) take 3-5 minutes
    to do so, so that is why they require you to be in a prone position either sitting or laying down on
    a sofa, lounge chair or bed. It is unlikely that they will climb on you in the kitchen while
    you are walking around there and do this. See the Terminix website which states this
    about bed bugs and when they will bite you.

  91. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Sep 24 2014 9:55:52
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I talked to some people from an apartment complex where 2 people were complaining of
    a bed bug infestation and wanted to report a apartment complex infestation. In our area,
    the local DNS will seriously investigate a complaint of 'entire apartment complex infested
    with bed bugs' if only 2 residents complain.

    Usually this is not successful, but as I explained to this person, even if the complaint is
    successful, and the apartment complex is condemned, their is a bright side to this for
    the apartment complex owner. Once the current residents have left, he just
    has to wait 2 months to reopen. As long as there is no vermin (mice or birds - other
    carbon dioxide emitting mammals available to feed on) in the building and in
    the absence of people and their animals, there will be nothing for the bed bugs
    to feed on during those 2 months, and they will all be dead within that 2 month period.

    This is just a further emphasis on that 2 month information that appears on the Wikipedia
    webpage that I quoted earlier. (bed bugs can survive maximum 2 months between
    feedings)

  92. Chicagobbordrocks

    junior member
    Joined: Jul '14
    Posts: 74

    offline

    Posted 4 years ago
    Wed Oct 1 2014 10:45:08
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I thought I would state generally what the 'wait until they are dead' method is and not
    refer to the specific situation where it worked. This is the method I used when using
    a cot for my specific situation and is the reason the discussion fell under this thread.

    My method relies on the fact that there are few locations that are infested and the number
    of bed bugs are low and the assumption is that the bed is one of those pieces of furniture
    that are infested.

    Instead of lying on the bed at night, you lie on a piece of furniture that is located
    in a remote location far from the bed such as the sofa in the living room, or a cot or
    hammock (a newly acquired piece of furniture) that you locate in some other location far from
    the bed in preferably another room where there are no bed bugs. Basically with my method, you sleep where the bed bugs aren't and far enough away so that they cannot detect your
    presence directly (which as I understand is an 8 foot radius).

    Also, you scrupulously avoid the location of the bed to avoid hitchhiking of the bugs on
    your person, others in the dwelling or your/others effects placed on the bed, and force the bugs to walk to your new location. My method relies on the fact that there is a extremely low probability
    of the later (walking to the new location) occurring. It is just a fact that for this
    pest hitchhiking predominates over walking to new locations. When this pest
    forages for food (every 3 to 7 days according to Wikipedia) it does not stray far,
    as it always returns to it's original harborage area whether it finds a new blood source
    or not.

    Also, our ancestors had the expression: 'Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite'. They
    didn't mean you actually had to sleep outside (as some have done) to avoid the problem
    in the bed in their residence. They must have meant you are able to do this in your
    apartment in some location (where the bed bugs aren't) while the bed bugs coexist
    in another location in your apartment. I've already discussed the use of encasements
    on the mattresses (to keep the bed bugs in the mattress in the mattress and the bed
    bugs outside the mattress out), and getting rid of the headboard (where bed bugs
    reproduce) in other listings under this thread as adjuncts.

    Also, according to Wikipedia you only have to spend 2 months sleeping at your new
    location as this is the maximum time between feedings for bed bugs. Thus, it
    is not the 1 year period that is commonly stated.

    You can test after two months whether there are still bed bugs in the bed, by sitting
    on the bed. They will come out as they will be attracted by your carbon dioxide emissions
    and their need for food (your blood). You can do this with the lights on as they will
    do this independent of whether it is light or dark in your room. If they still come out,
    repair to your new location far from the bed to sleep at night, and return in a few days
    to test again.

    I do not consider sofas and lounge chairs in my method, as I regard bed bugs in those
    locations as a quality of life issue. You can just avoid using those pieces of furniture by
    turning them over and using e.g. a kitchen chair in it's place.

    The drawbacks to my method for some will be the 2 month wait and the fact that you
    have to sleep on something far less comfortable than a bed (e.g. couch in the living room,
    or cot or hammock in some other location far removed from the bedroom). I will point
    out that with the 'brute' force method that is commonly used which consists of using
    pesticides and cleaning and getting rid of a piece of furniture you can spend significant
    time to be certain all bed bugs are gone from a local location.


RSS feed for this topic


Reply

You must log in to post.

294,690 posts in 49,530 topics over 153 months by 21,699 of 22,141 members. Latest: carterscott, ohkayiguess, shawnpayne1982