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climbups and 'Protecting' VS 'Isolating' bed controversy

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  1. guest002

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Jul 21 2011 2:51:45
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    The FAQ about protecting a bed,
    http://bedbugger.com/2006/11/02/faq-how-do-i-protect-my-bed-from-bed-bugs-part-i/
    says that "Isolating the bed is very controversial", and explains that bedbugs which can't feed at night due to an isolated bed will try to feed during the day whereever they can find you. Fair enough.

    What I don't understand is how this becomes a problem when the bed is isolated with climb-ups interceptors. As I imagine it, the bugs will be attracted to the CO2 and heat coming from the bed no matter whether the bed is isolated, protected, or completely vulnerable (as long as you're sleeping there, that is), and if 'isolation' is acheived by climbups, they'll get trapped in the attempt to climb. How is this a potentially inferior option to the 'protect' option described at that FAQ, where (while protecting the mattress from infestation with encasements) you deliberately allow the bugs access to you, so that you can identify their presence from bites and blood stains?

    I'm post a professional treatment, and certainly need to know if the bugs are finished off or if some are still around, and by my reasoning isolation with climb-ups is the way to go: without the climbup a bug attempting to feed (not already living in the bed) will probably suceed and leave a diagnostic bite, but with the climbup the same bug will be trapped and leave an even more diagnostic specimen.
    However, if there's a flaw in my theory or someone knows any reasons why I'm wrong and shouldn't isolate, I would like to know them! Any insights?
    Thanks.

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Jul 21 2011 3:53:09
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    Hi,

    The main reason why we do not recommend isolation devices is that when we have tested them the duration of the infestation has always been longer than a comparable infestation without isolation. We feel that it is more logical and better to leave bedbugs as being free to move around and come into contact with the treatment which is in place.

    I appreciate that you have faith in the isolation devices but they do need to be maintained every 2 weeks or they will potentially allow bedbugs to pass through the devices.

    In our analysis the potential to encourage bedbugs to live away from the bed is not a sensible approach and as such we don't support this approach and go down a different route.

    I hope that explains things from our perspective as non isolating service provider.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  3. blargg

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Jul 21 2011 6:11:14
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    Assuming the climbups are in good working condition, wouldn't bugs still stay near the bed? The hungry ones get trapped.
    I can see double-sided tape being a bad idea, since the bedbug would likely turn around and go hungry. Climbups, on the other hand, trap the bug so that it can't turn around and go back to hiding.

    Are the bugs smart enough to avoid the climbups?

  4. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 8 years ago
    Thu Jul 21 2011 8:21:10
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    Hi blargg,

    From our work it appeared that bedbugs can sometimes detect isolation devices and chose to hide out in more remote parts of the room which are not usually covered by our treatment patterns. It may be that the UK strain are more "streetwise and savvy" but since the aim of our process is to eradicate infestations in the fastest possible time anything that delays this is counter intuitive to what we do.

    To put this into perspective most of our cases are cleared in a single treatment cycle of 14 days and 98% are cleared in two visits. This is all without isolation and encasement products, as the stats are base don over 20,000 cases I have to say I hold more stead in my field data that what may appear to be logical.

    As bugs are smart enough to find a way around tape and many of the isolation style products out there I can assure you they are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for, that is not to say that they are a higher intelligence but a clear indication that they have adapted some amazing abilities to survive alongside mankind and should not be under estimated.

    David

  5. curls

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 0:46:42
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    So the issue is a matter of time? Isolation takes many months (at least 6 since last bite). With treatment taking a month or less?

    With treatment, do your clients have to bag everything in the house & get rid of clutter everywhere? And it costs much more?

    I just posted a question on the effectiveness of using isolation for a long time, rather than starting with PCO.

  6. curls

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 0:47:24
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  7. DreDay17

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 3:40:50
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    Climbups are for monitoring purposes.

    With each infestation you may have to approach it differently.

    Wait so if you have bed bugs it is bad to have climb ups?

  8. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 7:42:53
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    Hi curls,

    You are seeking specific answers but the reality is what we do is based on the circumstances we find in the property. We only bag and wash what is needed and when it is needed, the same with clutter. There is basically a huge difference between dealing with 1 or 2 bedbugs in a room compared with dealing with 30,000+ bedbugs in a room.

    We adapt and deploy our methods based on what we find when we inspect.

    However one of the constants is that we NEVER isolate the bed with devices as we want to keep any activity focused on and around the bed area where it is easier to deal with.

    Hope that clarifies.

    David

  9. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 12:11:30
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    Just to throw this out there: other PCOs besides David (dare I say most) do recommend pitfall traps like the ClimbUps.

    Other PCOs here are among them but they don't tend to contradict one another here very much even when they don't agree.

    I respect David's knowledge and methods but no one using ClimbUps should worry they're doing something "wrong".

    Besides the concern David has that they may spread bed bugs around the home-- which I don't think I have heard other PCOs express concern about-- a few consumers have complained about ClimbUps cracking on carpeted floors. Putting something hard and flat under them may prevent this.

    Rather than thinking of this or that method as good or bad, think of PCOs having different methods. They're not necessarily mix and match.

    David's methods work for him, apparently very well. But other PCOs who recommend ClimbUps or other monitoring methods can also use these to good effect and get rid of bed bugs.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  10. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 12:20:27
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    I am but a lone voice in the dark.

    Its fairer to say the practice along with encasement is not something that is big in Europe or for that matter many other parts of the world. Its a US centric approach but the majority of people on the boards from both sides of the issue are in that location.

    I think the concept was originally in the US as well according to a patent from 1866 although I do wonder why there is no record for their use in society when bedbugs were at their peak in the 1930's.

    David

  11. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Tue Aug 7 2012 12:30:20
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    I would say North American rather than US.

    Another factor we have discussed us the different structure of North American vs.. European beds, which seems relevant.

    I don't have a horse in this race but I think it's important for people to get more than one perspective.

    I don't see pros here disagreeing about this or other topics generally, and I think that's a shame. In emails and PMs when I ask questions directly, people do disagree. My impression is it's fairly universal between the pros. Whereas any pro would feel free to disagree with a non-professional Bedbugger (including myself).

    I gather that's due to professional courtesy and respect, and I do appreciate that. However, the nature of a forum like this is such that we should be able to express different approaches courteously and while giving respect. The effect on consumers is that they are often confused.

    Mind you, I am not talking about the pitfall monitor idea now, but more generally. If this seems like something you or others find worth discussing further, I can start a new thread.

  12. curls

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 9:57:36
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    Thanks bed-bugscouk and Nobugsonme for the info!

    I think I figured out the loop hole in my isolation idea. That if bugs are on anything in your house, and you put it into the bed, you're back to getting bit. Though the climbups should keep it isolated to the bed/couch and so eventually still get the BBs dead.

    The spreading seems like a real complication this type of self-treatment can add. Though I've seen what Nobugsonme is saying too, that a lot of PCO's online are agreeing with or not having a problem with climbups & encasing.

    My next step, will need to be very temporary measures while I get some PCO's into the house once I get home. I'm seeing now, the single PCO (based on referral from my regular bug guy) I had time to phone call before leaving for my trip, is likely not very good with BBs and had me a little thrown.

    I have a ton of clutter. But it's on the 2nd floor used only for showering & laundry. My bed's on 3rd floor, and kitchen/couch on 1st floor. So I'm hoping everything can be treated on the floors I sleep/sit in. And that they haven't infested further away on that 2nd floor, so i won't have to clean it all up pronto. I've planned to declutter it eventually - but was working on other stuff at the moment that's much more important in my life.

    Plus the $2-3000 ($400/room must do whole house) they priced at is a huge amount of money - and it sounds like it might be that much for many PCOs.

    I'm wandering off topic. So my question is for those who do use climbups & encasing... WHY doesn't isolation work. I see on this forum & others consistent comments that it won't get rid of BBs. And definite fears that it spreads them throughout the house. But not the why isolating/climbups doesn't get them ALL caught & dead? Any suggestions?

    Only suggestion so far is David's experience of them going dormant when they can't get through to you. Also that you'll get some bites walking around. Susan owner of the climbup's company says they won't go dormant when there's a warm body in the house, nor come out so easily when you're walking around. However, I'd assume David's career experience fighting them, would be the hand-ons more accurate.

    One more question, I'm hoping makes sense. I'm thinking when I get home, it will be hard for me to handle the bed to get it encased. I can't tolerate more bites (I'm already wheezing/sneezing) till I can get PCOs in & start a treatment. So what if I put plastic sheet over top of the bed, some straws or sticks to keep the edges off the bed (so stuck out on all sides of the bed not touching anything thing), with tape along the edge. And climbups. So bugs in the bed would have to walk either down the legs to the climbups. Or up to the plastic, along it to the edge, onto the sticky tape. Any reason this can't work for isolating the bed for at least a short while?

    Thanks again for any thoughts! Sorry to be so long winded - I'm tired.

    I'm off to buy climbups. I traveled to family -- and am so hoping no pregnant female happened to be in my stuff. None of it has infestations themselves.

  13. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 11:26:23
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    curls - 1 hour ago  » 

    Only suggestion so far is David's experience of them going dormant when they can't get through to you.

    Where did David say bed bugs would go dormant when they can't get to you? Please point me to that because I missed it.

    What I saw was David suggesting bed bugs may harborize areas further from the bed-- which is problematic, but not the same thing.

    I am not an expert but my understanding is that isolation does not solve bed bug problems or replace treatment because bed bugs kept from biting you on the bed will bite you elsewhere in the home.

    If you sit on a chair, they will go there.

    Unless you leave the home, bed bugs are going to still try and feed on you. If you leave, they will wait for someone to come back, or move to neighbors, and I suspect it's quite likely they'll do both.

  14. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 11:36:19
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    I can't really comment on your alternative isolation idea with plastic and tape. If you see bed bugs on the mattress, you should kill them. Eggs can be removed with a stiff brush.

    A box spring is trickier because it's nearly impossible to inspect properly, and you really should have someone help you encase it when you're ready.

    It probably is best to have the PCO in first as they will probably treat these items.

  15. curls

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 12:27:32
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    Nobugsonme - 33 minutes ago  » 

    You are right. David said they'd move further (which is a problem itself), not go dormant. Thanks for correcting me.

    "If you sit on a chair, they will go there."

    I only sit on bed & couch. It's just me. So I'm in a unique position where I can isolate everything a this blood host uses. Only biting chance would be when I'm walking around for laundry, getting dressed, getting food. That's why I'm wondering if isolation can work in this case. I can control so many more variables.

    As for going to neighbors -- yes, it's a town house with concrete between units, but it's very possible. A good point.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 13:58:09
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    Thanks-- this "dormancy" idea spreads as well as bed bugs but there doesn't seems to be much grounds for it.

    People have had bed bugs run up their legs as they stood.

    Isolating really isn't a method to eliminate bed bugs. They may certainly visit a neighbor and i'm not a lawyer but you may then be legally liable for ignoring the problem and allowing it to spread.

  17. curls

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 14:16:56
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    Nobugsonme - 5 minutes ago  » 
    Thanks-- this "dormancy" idea spreads as well as bed bugs but there doesn't seems to be much grounds for it.

    That makes more sense. From reading, I've been guessing that bugs surviving in empty buildings waiting for a feed for over 3 months, were what gave a dormancy idea, when it's really just that the BBs can live unexpectedly long without food. But in live bait settings, they keep trying to get to you.

    Nobugsonme - 5 minutes ago  » 
    People have had bed bugs run up their legs as they stood.

    Yep, after posting I was picturing, you'd have to wear plastic socks with sticky tape at the top, to catch them.

    While I suppose isolation is possible in theory, but -

    1.) Who can do this for 6 months & possibly as long as 18 since last bite? Including if you have guests, even just the cable repair guy.

    2.) If they go to birds outside for a bit, or find a mouse I don't know about, or take even an outdoor stroll to a neighbor. That ends it. Since they'll eventually be back.

    --- but by the same token, even with a good PCO cleanout, they can come back any time. Which is yet another topic, prevention post--infection-success.

    I imagine my next focus should be gettting as much done of my personal paperwork & tasks while away... because cleaning out & interviewing PCOs will take over my life when I get back!

  18. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 7 years ago
    Wed Aug 8 2012 17:24:13
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    Isolating really isn't a method to eliminate bed bugs. They may certainly visit a neighbor and i'm not a lawyer but you may then be legally liable for ignoring the problem and allowing it to spread.

    Just to be clear, if bed bugs went over to a neighbor, I don't think they'd come back. I am not an expert but my understanding is it's quite possible some may stay in an abandoned home a while and others will set off and find a new harborage and stay there.

  19. Jparanoid

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Sep 8 2013 18:24:50
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    I am isolating my bed in an attempt to see if I have bb. I has had bed isolated for 3 weeks and not seen any verifiable evidence of bb, nothing in climb ups. In addition, I have DE along baseboards, on bed frame, and due to an accidnet with the cup I was using, a thin layer on bedroom floor. I am not interested in avoiding treatment only detecting.

    I live in a 2 story town house. Bed room on the second floor. Living room couch on main floor and basement has a roommate. I have put climb ups on his bed but he wont completely isolate. How likely are the bib's to go to the basement, or living room, instead of trying at least once to get to me in the bed.

    It is possible that the living room is the more likely place for them to have goten off of possible source (my nephew who was in my bed, couch, and slept in spare room on same floor as my bedroom) I've inspected it pretty well, along with baseboards, and dusted baseboards and carpet, and couch with light DE.

    Legs of couch are too large for climb ups. I have noticed bites for the first time last night, in the middle of the night and more this morning. No traces on my very isolated bed (encasement, DE, climb ups, heat treated bedding). Could I have gotten bitten while I was in living room during the day? I thought they we're nocturnal and ifi haven't seen any evidence I would think they would not have adapted so quickly.

  20. P Bello

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Sun Sep 8 2013 23:06:31
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    Dear jp,

    Isolation can be implemented successfully if done correctly.

    When bed or couch legs are too large for use in normal blocker type devices then we need to go with a "plan b":

    > Use a spacer that fits in the selected blocking device that the leg can rest upon.

    > Get the large size blocking device which was created for such circumstances.

    Regarding your other question, I'm not certain that we have sufficient information to determine which room, if any, is where the bed bugs might be or where they may have started.

    However, it would be best for you to first determine for sure that you have bed bugs.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  21. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Sep 9 2013 3:10:41
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    There was a video posted a while ago of bedbugs going around and being under the climbups. I can't find it. For me, I'm not sure I would talc every two weeks or do it correctly.

    Interesting thread.

    They
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    = TAOT
  22. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Sep 9 2013 10:08:33
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    Hi TAOT,

    I think this is the video you are referring to:

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Plugins

    David

  23. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Sep 9 2013 11:56:56
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    David,

    I copied the URL from the address bar, and pasted that in, which embeds the video automatically here.

    It used to be possible to do this with the "long link" but now if you want the video to embed, you have to copy from the address bar while looking at YouTube. The short link just creates a link (which is fine too, but I like to make the video embed here where possible, so I hope you don't mind me editing your post!)

  24. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Sep 9 2013 19:04:22
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    Nobugsonme - 7 hours ago  » 
    David,
    I copied the URL from the address bar, and pasted that in, which embeds the video automatically here.
    It used to be possible to do this with the "long link" but now if you want the video to embed, you have to copy from the address bar while looking at YouTube. The short link just creates a link (which is fine too, but I like to make the video embed here where possible, so I hope you don't mind me editing your post!)

    Whew! Glad that didn't say TAOT...I think I understand..oh, shoot..who am I kidding...

  25. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 6 years ago
    Mon Sep 9 2013 21:53:03
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    TAOT,

    It's like this: if you want to paste in a Youtube link, you have two choices:

    1. Copy the link address (this is what I mean by "URL") from the top of your browser window when you're looking at the video on Youtube.

    2. Copy the YouTube link address (URL) from under the video when you're looking at a YouTube page (where it says "share").

    #1 will make the video APPEAR here and is preferred if possible. Is that clearer?


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