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Cimexa dangers

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  1. blackavar

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Wed Jun 19 2019 20:51:19
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    Been reading about Cimexa, stuff looks really good. It's supposed to be amorphous silica, but there is a small percentage that might be crystalline silica (filed in "other" in the ingredients list) and that is the kind that is dangerous if inhaled, if I understand correctly. In normal applications, does Cimexa get airborne after it has been dusted into bed, cracks or furniture? Is it the best method for a home with babies and small children? It's supposed to have residual effect for 10 years if undisturbed but since it's dust, I assume the product will unavoidably migrate. Thanks in advance for any replies.

  2. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 2:08:18
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    (post edited)

  3. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 7:43:50
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    Hi,

    Sadly there is a lot of incorrect information around what Cimexa claims to be versus what it actually is.

    As with all powders and dusts the significant risk comes from airborne particles and long term exposure to them. To this end as a denser particle which is less likely to become airborne DE is the safer product. Even when some one goes all cartel with DE you only need to close the room off for an hour and the dust settles. This is not the case with Cimexa which remains airborne in the slightest breeze.

    Dust masks should be worn when applying either and they should always be used sparingly, more does not make either work better or faster.

    Ultimately neither is as essential as some might make out but given the choice I faver DE because its easy to manage and insert.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  4. blackavar

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 8:42:59
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    Thanks for the info, David. Would a HEPA air filter reduce the inhalation danger of applied Cimexa in inhabitad, treated spaces?

  5. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 8:50:33
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    Hi,

    No, the air circulation needed to HEPA filter the air would keep the material airborne. You are looking at the difference between a breath filled balloon and one filled with helium.

    The safest dust to use is DE unless your talking about working in a zero gravity environment.

    David

  6. loubugs

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 11:42:55
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    blackavar - 14 hours ago  » 
    Been reading about Cimexa, stuff looks really good. It's supposed to be amorphous silica, but there is a small percentage that might be crystalline silica (filed in "other" in the ingredients list) and that is the kind that is dangerous if inhaled, if I understand correctly. In normal applications, does Cimexa get airborne after it has been dusted into bed, cracks or furniture? Is it the best method for a home with babies and small children? It's supposed to have residual effect for 10 years if undisturbed but since it's dust, I assume the product will unavoidably migrate. Thanks in advance for any replies.

    Actually DE has the small percentage of crystalline sililca; CimeXa does not. DE is therefore not good to inhale.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  7. BigDummy

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 12:04:25
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  8. loubugs

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 12:19:21
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    BigDummy: that's an example of over application of a dust and a powder. Bed bugs would stay clear of it, but some people might be attracted.

  9. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Thu Jun 20 2019 19:25:31
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    Hi BD,

    When I am back in London I may send you a pic of what it looks like when someone spreads that much dust into a room.

    David

  10. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 3:20:14
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    I have them both, but only used DE so far. DE is "heavier" than Cimexa, which seems weightless.

    But as Lou said, Cimexa claims it is 100% crystalline sililca free, so it is safer.

    DE food grade extracted from fresh water also seems to be without much crystalline sililca (less than 2% as per Wikipedia). Here in Romania we have DE food grade and the labels simply states "100% Diatomaceous earth". It is imported from the US under a license to redistribute it.
    I bought Cimexa from Amazon US and it arrived in less than a week at my door, no questions asked.

    As for efficiency, I've put one very lively nymph on a jar with very little DE, it took almost 3 days to kill it. I am not even sure the nymph died from other causes like lack of oxygen (is this even possible?), but I was careful to give it fresh air from time to time.

  11. loubugs

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 6:07:35
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    pampas - 2 hours ago  » 
    I have them both, but only used DE so far. DE is "heavier" than Cimexa, which seems weightless.
    But as Lou said, Cimexa claims it is 100% crystalline sililca free, so it is safer.
    DE food grade extracted from fresh water also seems to be without much crystalline sililca (less than 2% as per Wikipedia). Here in Romania we have DE food grade and the labels simply states "100% Diatomaceous earth". It is imported from the US under a license to redistribute it.
    I bought Cimexa from Amazon US and it arrived in less than a week at my door, no questions asked.
    As for efficiency, I've put one very lively nymph on a jar with very little DE, it took almost 3 days to kill it. I am not even sure the nymph died from other causes like lack of oxygen (is this even possible?), but I was careful to give it fresh air from time to time.

    Lack of oxygen isn't an issue. Insects don't respire like vertebrate do. Put a lively nymph in a jar with CimeXa powder.

  12. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 7:08:08
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    Hi,

    While people tend to focus on the risk of silicosis from potential crystalline silica the huge elephant in the room is particles.

    This is in essence the same issue faced by various other industries like carpentry where the wood tends not to be toxic put prolonged exposure to fine particles posses a physical issue. These risks have increased over the years with the introduction of particle boards and composite wood based materials.

    Cimexa is a lighter particle and as such the risks are more pronounced. We would be doing a huge disservice to people to not explain this, particularly given that the product you call Cimexa has many other applications, the most common use is an profession that works with face masks on because of the various particle risks they face.

    While people may also consider the efficacy to be critical the slower death time on DE actually fit in with the lifecycle of bedbugs better and makes for a much more efficient treatment cycle. If you claim a faster kill and don't get those results you end up with a customer who feels the service has not delivered to either the promise of their expectations of what has been said.

    I am certainly never comfortable when I read someone suggesting applying it to a mattress because that's an easy way to start breathing it in and the reality is bedbugs that hang out in such easy locations can be killed more effectively by the application of pressure of fingers externally.

    Finally anything that marketing as a magic bullet does huge disservice to the issue we ultimately face which is about getting people to look and avoid bedbugs rather than never learn that lesson and keep treating.

    I think by this stage I am personally not into things that don't actually add to solving the bigger picture, especially when they cant be honest about what it is.

    David

  13. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 7:14:38
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    I really hope I will not have to. I am undergoing a complete renovation/cleaning of the whole house. I've thrown out most of my furniture as it was old enough to be replaced, and thinking about going full-Ikea-minimalistic style until the infestation is over in my building.

    The biggest problem was the parquetry (70 years old) which was full of cracks, even though it was maintained properly over the years. Too many cracks and small spaces for these bugs to hide.

    It is costly, but it had to be done at some point in the future, so why not now?

    I will update my situation on my thread. Hopefully it will be all over in 2 weeks and I can start monitoring again.

    But if I catch more, I will surely use Cimexa to see how fast it reacts to it.

  14. loubugs

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 7:30:12
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    The problem associated with asbestosis and silicosis is the crystalline component of asbestos and silica, respectively. The crystalline nature of the material is what causes the problem in the lungs. Dusts by nature of being dusts can cause issues also in the lungs but crystalline components have their unique problems. Below is a compilation from scientific sites:
    Breathing crystalline silica causes silicosis and the main risk factor is exposure to silica dust. Silicosis is caused by exposure to crystalline silica, which comes from chipping, cutting, drilling, or grinding soil, sand, granite, or other minerals. Any occupation where the earth’s crust is disturbed can cause silicosis.
    Silicosis is caused by exposure to respirable crystalline silica dust. Crystalline silica is a basic component of soil, sand, granite, and most other types of rock, and it is used as an abrasive blasting agent. Silicosis is a progressive, disabling, and often fatal lung disease. Cigarette smoking adds to the lung damage caused by silica.
    Silicosis or by the invented name pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is a form of occupational lung disease caused by inhalation of crystalline silica dust, and is marked by inflammation and scarring in the form of nodular lesions in the upper lobes of the lungs. It is a type of pneumoconiosis.

    A long list of occupations are known that expose workers to crystalline silica that is inhaled. These include:
    Various forms of mining, such as coal and hard rock mining
    Construction work
    Tunnel work
    Masonry
    Sand blasting
    Glass manufacturing
    Ceramics work
    Steel industry work
    Quarrying
    Stone cutting
    Patients with silicosis have an increased risk of other problems, such as tuberculosis, lung cancer, and chronic bronchitis. If you are a smoker, quitting may help, as smoking damages the lungs.

    Pathophysiology
    When small silica dust particles are inhaled, they can embed themselves deeply into the tiny alveolar sacs and ducts in the lungs, where oxygen and carbon dioxide gases are exchanged. There, the lungs cannot clear out the dust by mucous or coughing.

    When fine particles of crystalline silica dust are deposited in the lungs, macrophages that ingest the dust particles will set off an inflammatory response by releasing tumor necrosis factors, interleukin-1, leukotriene B4 and other cytokines. In turn, these stimulate fibroblasts to proliferate and produce collagen around the silica particle, thus resulting in fibrosis and the formation of the nodular lesions. The inflammatory effects of crystalline silica are apparently mediated by the NALP3 inflammasome.

    Characteristic lung tissue pathology in nodular silicosis consists of fibrotic nodules with concentric "onion-skinned" arrangement of collagen fibers, central hyalinization, and a cellular peripheral zone, with lightly birefringent particles seen under polarized light. The silicotic nodule represents a specific tissue response to crystalline silica. In acute silicosis, microscopic pathology shows a periodic acid-Schiff positive alveolar exudate (alveolar lipoproteinosis) and a cellular infiltrate of the alveolar walls.

  15. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 7:33:22
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    I agree with both Lou and David. There are pros and cons for both powders.

    I spread DE with my hands (until I got a duster) and it was a huge mistake. They do not eat it, so putting large quantities does not affect the process. In fact, it is worse, they will simply avoid the dust.
    You have to use a duster and there's a learning curve until you will master the "art of spreading". It has to be a very thin layer of dust, barely visible to the eye. In this way, the bugs will 100% crawl over it and the desiccation process will start.

    Now, DE works slower, CimeXa works faster. DE is heavier, CimeXa is lighter: both will get airborne at some point.

    From my experience with DE, it is better to make something like a small cloud of dust in the area you want covered, and let it settle for a while (you have to be outside the room during this process). Do not overspread. In this case, less is actually more.

    Always wear a mask!

  16. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 8:06:45
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    Hi Pampus,

    The issue is never going to be the cracks in the parquet unless you spend a lot of time driving bedbugs out of all the logical and preferred locations first.

    This is particularly true in your case where you have identified the source as the neighbour.

    In the case of bedbugs a little bit of knowledge is a huge danger because of the Dunning Kruger effect and the risk of people doing things they feel are sensible when they are in fact huge errors, foggers and aerosols being the most obvious.

    Yes facemasks are essential but PPE is the final stage of protection, you have to look at reducing the risks at the start of the process and to me that means heavier dusts that are less likely to be airborne and which would fall to the ground due to gravity before lighter ones. In the UK we have COSHH regulation that teaches to reduce risks you must always take the least dangerous options where possible and that should result in an outcome where PPE is no longer needed.

    This is why I recommend detergent solution over alcohol but point out that both are only effective as contact killers. In the case of alcohol the fire hazard puts it out of the ball park when detergent is an option as the two products work equally well but one comes with increased dangers.

    I am certainly a lot aware of the dangers having faced daily for so long.

    David

  17. blackavar

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 9:54:11
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    Very interesting points here. I'm always very concerned about respiratory effects of pest treatment because my family has asthma and allergies and an immediate history of lung cancer. I think an individual doing treatment with either DE or Cimexa has to be aware of the risks of both. CimeXa, being not crystalline, is comparably safer than DE--where silicosis is concerned, that is. The impetus for my question is that it is being marketed as totally safe, and people just leave it at that and start dusting. But it makes sense that every dust has risks, especially in sensitive individuals. So both David and Lou are unparadoxically right.

    Pampas, I also have old parquet floors.over time the sealing has degraded so much so the crevices are innumerable. During my last infestation (detected at two weeks) strangely never saw a single fecal dropping on my white sheets, my mattress, and no harborage signs on my metal frame bed.All I ever saw were two adult bugs. I was convinced they were harboring in the floor. Now I have a very nice wooden Bed so I want to really make beautiful and luxurious accommodations for any future bugs via passive monitoring so I won't have to worry about the goddamn floor.

  18. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 11:32:55
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    blackavar, my beds and sofa were absolutely clean when I inspected them carefully. Since I am a newbie in this, I can't be sure I did all correctly. But if I was a bedbug, I will be hiding in the cracks on the floors, not on the bed.

    The pest control companies in Romania don't assist you in any way apart from treating your home. You can say you have dinosaurs in your home, they will come, treat and take your money. They do not ask for evidence, they don't look for evidence. This is because bb are uncommon here.

    While talking to my friends about this, most reactions were: what? bed bugs in this day and age? To be honest, if you told me about this three months ago, I would have the same reaction.

    Another interesting thing is that, in Romanian, the name for bed bugs doesn't involve any of the words "bed" or "bug", so people don't know right away that some bugs can actually live in or near your bed and feed on you.

    When I first discovered one, I was relieved I did not have a strange, unknown allergy to something. So, this is the level of awareness here. I can't blame anyone, I was in the same boat, not knowing what hit me. Now I think of all the strange bites I got while traveling abroad. Some could have been from bedbugs, but I was simply not aware.

    PS: the thread got somehow hijacked by me with this post, sorry for that. It is about dusts, not level or awareness in Romania.

  19. Iwantmylifeback

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 11:50:23
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    Hi Pampas .I have send you PM .
    Also I do put Cimexa into the cracks in my wooden floor .I use a small brush to do that .
    Than I vacuum once a week and start the whole process all over again .Lots of work to deal with those bloody monsters!
    I stopped using mask , for am not that delicate I guess.
    I have placed Cimexa behind the cushion of my couch and I have noticed big difference .(stopped getting a lot of bites ..before I have only placed dust inside (don’t see any sign of them inside never really did ).
    I have discovered a harboring inside of the dresser opposite my bed not in the bed itself .
    But one was crawling on my bed and it got me thinking so I started searching and there were not in bed but in the dresser and apparently a night table next to my he bed .It was last fall but to this day Iam not sure if I got rid of them completely (still live out of bags ).Last time I received two bites it was a week ago ..means nothing but gives me a hope .
    Take care and keep posted about your progress.

  20. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sat Jun 22 2019 19:58:25
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    Hi,

    If the Romanian is derived from German or Dutch it will be a derivative of wall louse as opposed to a derivative of Bed Boog which is the Welsh gallic for ghost of the bed.

    Etiology and entomology.

    David

  21. pampas

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Sun Jun 23 2019 7:22:55
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    Although Romanian is 70% Latin and 30% Slavic, the word for bedbug is coming from Slavic:

    Romanian: ploshnitza is the word used by anyone, in some regions they are called wood lice.
    Czech: ploštice, ploštka.
    Polish: ploszczyca, pluskwa.

    In general, we say we have bugs. Bugs means either "black bugs" (most likely Blatta orientalis) or "kitchen bugs" (which are Blattella germanica).

    However, "ploshnitza" is very broad term and people are usually thinking about agricultural pests, instead of bedbugs. A much more effective name would be simply "bed bugs", which translates perfectly into Romanian and also gives you an immediate idea about what is going on with this insect.

  22. loubugs

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Mon Jun 24 2019 5:48:44
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    Iwantmylifeback - 1 day ago  » 
    Hi Pampas .I have send you PM .
    Also I do put Cimexa into the cracks in my wooden floor .I use a small brush to do that .
    Than I vacuum once a week and start the whole process all over again .Lots of work to deal with those bloody monsters!
    I stopped using mask , for am not that delicate I guess.
    I have placed Cimexa behind the cushion of my couch and I have noticed big difference .(stopped getting a lot of bites ..before I have only placed dust inside (don’t see any sign of them inside never really did ).
    I have discovered a harboring inside of the dresser opposite my bed not in the bed itself .
    But one was crawling on my bed and it got me thinking so I started searching and there were not in bed but in the dresser and apparently a night table next to my he bed .It was last fall but to this day Iam not sure if I got rid of them completely (still live out of bags ).Last time I received two bites it was a week ago ..means nothing but gives me a hope .
    Take care and keep posted about your progress.

    If you apply it, why vacuum it up? No reason to do so.


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