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Cancel second treatment by NYBedBug Dog? What to do next?

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  1. Maddash

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 30 2009 22:58:23
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    A couple of weeks ago, my 2 year old showed a few bites on her leg and face, and my wife had one breakfastlunchdinner row on her arm. A week ago my landlord sent NY Bedbug Dog to inspect my one bedroom apt in a large apartment building (that has struggled with bedbugs quite a bit). The dog indicated bedbugs around our bed (which sits in a dining alcove) and my daughter's crib. He seemed to ignore the couch, which is basically in the same room as us. The PCO did not do any visual inspection following the dog's point. We had not been told to prep at all. He basically told us to throw out all the stuff around our bed, my daughter's books (sad), and magazines, etc. This was his only instruction. From reading on this site, I know it's a lot more complicated than that, but I followed his advice. He sprayed right away around my bed and around the crib (I did not see exactly how or where, as I was getting my girl ready to vacate the place), and we were told to leave for four hours.
    Over the next couple of days, we did laundry and bagging. We bought my daughter a new bed and trashed the crib, along with underused toy, animals, etc. We put tons of stuff through the dryer. But we started to wonder about how unspecific the PCO had been. Also about what chemicals my daughter was being exposed to. We called and asked what had been used to treat-- we were told Phantom and Gentrol.
    I then called John Furman (KQ), on the advice of this board and a friend who had used his services with success. Furman told me of his skepticism of dogs and suggested that I must do visual inspection myself, in as detailed a way as possible. He also said Phantom was ok but not great for 1st treatment, and that according to some studies, Gentrol, a pesticide designed for roaches, may very well increase BB population. Great.
    The week went by, and we saw no bites. I did as thorough an inspection as I could, with a halogen flashlight, looking at the bed slats, under furniture, baseboards, all very carefully, and found NOTHING. We were starting to think false positive, and to relax a bit. Then, today, bites appeared on my daughter's leg again. Our hearts sank.
    Now, we're not sure how to proceed. Do we go forward with the next treatment from this same company, and see how it goes? Or are we wasting our time with them? It is free, provided by the building, which is a far cry from the expense of going outside for a better PCO, like Furman, but we don't want this to turn into something worse. Can anyone chime in as to what you think is the best way to proceed here? Thanks for all your knowledge and help, here, and everywhere on bedbugger.

  2. Deathlyallergic

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 30 2009 23:14:11
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    Hi,
    I sympathize with you, these things showed up 4 weeks ago for me, and I found out Im deadly allergic, so I have to take extreme measures

  3. Deathlyallergic

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 30 2009 23:21:05
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    I have encased my mattress by Clean Rest, my box springs with vinyl, cause the encasements are expensive,
    I have had the exterminator out twice for BB treatment then set him up weekly for normal treatment the apt company provides no additional cost,
    I bought and should have by Tuesday these things called Climbups from USbedbugs, they go under each leg of the bed to help detect and trap the BB. read about it on line, they will give you an online coupon if you contact them.
    I wear long sleeves and leggings, high socks and gloves to bed, with skin so soft Off on my face and neck.
    for my health alone, I can't get bit
    I inspect all my clothes, even tho I have washed them and dried them, that was a horrific ordeal in itself.
    I got rid of my mattress pad, check behind your picture frames, I got rid of a big framed pic cause it had signs of them after the treatments.
    From what Im told it takes weeks , and lots of treatments, cause it takes 10 to 14 days for these things to hatch, so the previous treatment may not have killed the new eggs.
    They are attracted to carbon dioxide, and body odors.
    I have treated my whole home, but the minute I thought I had it licked, I was like you and got sick from new bites showing up after 2 weeks of NO bites, and had to start my reaction treatment all over again.
    Pitiful there is a support group for this but am glad there is, cause I m dealing with this all by myself, my kids are unaffected so far.

  4. BBCOUKonTour

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Oct 30 2009 23:34:24
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    Hi,

    I would suggest that you call the first PCO back in and ask them to do a full inspection to confirm the situation.

    I am not sceptical of the ability of bed bug dogs to detect bed bugs, I have a team in the UK. I am however livid that people do not confirm the finding of a dog alert by identifying:

    • Live samples
    • Cast Skins
    • Faecal traces

    Without finding these a dog alert is just that a dog alert, nothing more and nothing less.

    To treat without confirmation is disgraceful and far from professional behaviour, how can you tell if you are successful when you don't even bother confirming what is the cause of the problem. I appreciate that one school of thought says the dogs are 97% accurate and if it repeatedly "hits" its confirmed but that is not the case.

    This issue came up at PestWorld this week and I have to say I was deeply disappointed with the stance of one trainer on the issue you simply can not go on the finding of a dog alone. Lets face it if it alerts to a small area its not a hard job to search and find confirming signs and that is the key word confirming.

    Now with regards Gentrol this also came up in Michael Potters talk and he specifically requested that people stop miss quoting the thought that IGR's induce egg laying. There is no data to prove this and yet it has spread like all urban myths.

    Bite morphology or pattern are also not confirming signs and although they can indicate an issue they can not be used as a diagnostic.

    If the PCO does not check thoroughly and can not confirm the signs then they are not professional its as simple as that, they do however need to come back and check, for them to learn if nothing else.

    As for throwing things out it is another indication of a non professional PCO if they don't know about sealing and decontamination with PackTite please educate them.

    OK rant over and normal service can resume again.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

  5. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 31 2009 19:37:03
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    I would like to say that I agree fully with David.

    Pepe stated at one point that you should trust your dog during the PestWorld conference this week. He also mentioned utilizing a second K9 to provide confirmation.

    Bill & I teach our handlers that the K9s alerts must be visually confirmed to be valid.

    A PCO should not be treating solely on the basis of an unconfirmed K9 alert... or you have the dog making decisions that the PCO should be making on the basis of the evidence, their education, experience, product label and applicable statutory requirements.

    Not all alerts can be verified due to inaccessible areas and other conditions, but the vast majority of alerts can be visually confirmed by a diligent handler team.

    As Dr Potter said during his presentation (paraphrasing Tom Cruise) "Show me the bugs!"

  6. cilecto

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 31 2009 19:49:03
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    If you need to spend time and money doing prep that's ineffective, because your LL's PCO doesn't know what he's doing, if you have to replace your hard-earned goods to enable your LL to fulfil his obligation under "warranty of habitability", then IMHO, it's not free. I'd love to see how courts would treat a case where a tenant sues for the loss of goods that the LL's rep, the PCO says to toss.

    Stuff like this makes me very angry. "Pest-Industrial-Complex" please takes note. Good PCOs that live up to the high-minded pronciples that its apologists espouse and who actually deliver the goods without grief seem to be the exception rather than the rule. he more this goes on, the more individuals will find (or attempt to fine) ways to bypass your services.

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  7. cilecto

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sat Oct 31 2009 22:40:17
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    find

  8. Maddash

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Nov 1 2009 15:37:14
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    Thank you all very much for your points of view. The info you're giving me is so useful-- I am actually planning to forward this thread to my maintenance office to let them know what I am thinking and what advice you all offered-- then I can have a conversation with them about what this company's plans are for their visit scheduled this Friday. I may have found a cast skin in a large antique cabinet that stands near our bed, and I can also show that to the PCO. I'm also planning to look into the possibility of splitting the cost of a top notch PCO (i.e. KIllerQueen) with my landlord. At the most, I will give this company one more chance this week. If my sense is still that they are not being specific and diligent, I think I have to take steps to get the problem handled by someone competent, even if it costs much more, because I dread the possibility of a seemingly small infestation becoming large and even more difficult.

  9. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Mon Nov 2 2009 9:22:51
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    Maddash

    How did you identify the cast skin?

    Have you found any further evidence or specimens in your residence?

    I sent a PM to you

  10. btaggart

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Nov 4 2009 17:00:54
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    Doug,

    I was at the same presentation that you are referring to. What Pepe
    actually said was you should do everything in your power to find the
    evidence but at the end of the day it comes down to whether or not you trust
    your dog. Which by the way Bill Whitstine was nodding in agreement to. It
    is clear to me your intentions are to continue to make slanderous remarks
    and create that simply no longer exist. I had though we had made great
    strides last week to bring this industry together, especially at the Canine
    Insect Detection Committee meeting where the overwhelming majority of people
    in the room agreed that standards for this industry are necessary. I think
    you should jog your memory think back to the presentation and recant your
    previous statements.

  11. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Wed Nov 4 2009 19:17:21
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    Brian

    Pepe was nodding while Bill was talking about verifying alerts & Pepe commented on the importance of confirmation during the panel discussion. I am happy to stipulate to that fact.

    I paraphrased Pepe's comments without quotation marks in a short post.

    I am not interested in slandering anyone... I was sitting next to David during the presentation & simply responded to his observation about the stance of dog trainers on confirmation of K9 alerts.

    Bill made a remark about the surprising lack of disagreement between him and Pepe on most issues toward the end of the discussion.

    Whether any progress was made at the CIDC meeting will depend on the Board of Director's of NPMA.

    If more non-NESDCA K9 handlers are granted representation on the CIDC committee... then some progress may be in our future.

    Currently the CIDC Committee only represents a small percentage of K9 handlers that were trained by Pepe and belong to NESDCA.

    A representative committee that is properly balanced will advance the industry & create a uniform standard of care for the consumer.

    An unbalanced committee will only increase the level of animosity between members of the K9 handler community.

    Unfortunately, I predict that the current CIDC membership will simply enact NESDCA standards without any regard for non-affiliated NPMA K9 handlers that are being excluded from participation due to biased certification exam rules.

  12. BuggedBob

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Thu Nov 5 2009 22:17:02
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    I understand there is a new organization being formed for handlers and owners of bed bug dogs. I've talked with several dog trainers since I've been battling bed bugs in Indiana. One of the most knowledgeable handlers I've talked with so far is Gary Broberg out of Cleveland. Anyone know if he has been invited to become a part of the discussion group that is forming this new organization?

  13. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Fri Nov 6 2009 9:22:08
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    The NPMA CID committee membership is currently limited to the NESDCA Board of Directors and Advisers.

    Pepe was given a seat on the committee. He was introduced as a member of the committee and voted despite NPMA rules that bar vendors from serving on a committee.

    Everyone else was excluded from having a vote on the CID committee during the meeting at PestWorld.

    We are hoping that the NPMA will correct these irregularities and appoint a new committee that will include representation for the large majority of K9 handlers that do not belong to NESDA on the CIDC.

  14. Deathlyallergic

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Nov 15 2009 0:59:08
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    I would love for a BB dog to come and inspect my room, now that I seem to have it under control as far as the bed is concerned. knock on serious wood, no bites in 2 weeks, but I think I saw a infant crawling on my night stand, but my bed is isolated and sitting on the climbups, after getting rid of my very thick mattress pad, even after washing and drying it, found they were still able to hide in it. but so far with the bed isolated, encasements, and climbups, so far so good, but not convinced they are out of my room!

  15. btaggart

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Nov 15 2009 12:32:54
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    a certified canine team can definitely help to verify control measures were effective. one question that you should ask a team is if the canine is trained to alert to live bugs and viable eggs only. This is important especially if you are trying to confirm eradication

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Nov 15 2009 22:51:22
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    btaggart - 9 hours ago  » 
    a certified canine team can definitely help to verify control measures were effective.

    Note to readers:

    I believe there are both certified and uncertified bed bug k9 teams which are effective, and where the handler searches for the bed bug the dog has alerted to.

    My understanding is that there are two main trainers of bed bug k9s in the USA (Pepe Peruyero and Bill Whitstine), that they have differing approaches, and that Bedbugger readers have at time praised dogs from each trainer. (There are also independent trainers.)

    On the other hand, people have had issues with bed bug k9 inspections, for example, where a dog alerted but the sample was not confirmed, and then an "all clear" was given and LATER it became apparent that there were bed bugs. It happens, presumably even to the most effective dogs and teams.

    To the customer, this means a great deal of frustration. I have seen some Bedbugger Forum readers hire one dog after another, getting different results from each.

    Your best bet may be a handler who searches for a visual confirmation of any dog alert.

    If you're reading recommendations about particular dogs on the forums, do remember that people who work in the bed bug k9 industry may not be unbiased in this matter. PCOs who have a connection with a particular handler may not be biased. And many customers aren't either.

    Imagine a dog did correctly assess whether or not you have bed bugs. You go and post a review of your great dog team! A dog team that is only 50% accurate will have 5 happy customers and 5 who may be happy for a while, or not.

    You have no way of knowing if reviews are coming from a happy customer whose dog team was 50% accurate, or one which was 95% accurate.

    If your handler visually tries to confirm an alert, you may still not have a definitive answer whether you have bed bugs or not. However, it is arguably better to be unsure whether you have bed bugs than to get an "all clear" in error.

    -----

    Note to btaggart and Doug Summers and anyone else connected with the bed bug k9s business:

    With respect,

    Please restrict your comments to questions the bed bug sufferers have asked, as opposed to carrying on a discussion of your industry.

    I know there are important issues involved there, but rehashing them when people ask about what they should do about a bed bug inspection situation may confuse many of our readers.

    You are welcome to start a thread about the debates going on in the bed bug k9 industry, but I would like to label it carefully as such and keep the discussion there.

    We do not as yet have an official policy on discussions about the bed bug k9 industry, and I am not declaring one now, however, it's best if you can try to follow this recommendation to avoid confusing people who are looking for help.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  17. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 9 years ago
    Sun Nov 15 2009 23:11:15
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    I edited some of the post above as a possible FAQ on bed bug k9s. I don't want to discuss that idea here (especially since I was reminding others to stay focused on the original poster's questions), so please go to this thread if you want to comment on my post in terms of its accuracy.


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