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Can I use Climbup Interceptors and PackTite Passive Monitor at the same time?

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  1. staypositive

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Feb 11 2014 18:59:11
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    Please Help! Thank you so so so much!!!

    Question 1: Can I use Climbup Interceptors and PackTite Passive Monitor at the same time?

    I reviewed the FAQ section and notice this:

    These two approaches (passives vs. interceptor/pitfall monitors) are quite different, and mixing them is not usually the best idea.

    My new mental bed frame, mattress, bedbug encasement, and climb-up were arrived, but I didn't set them up yet. I also want to set up a passive monitor at the same time. Is that a good idea?

    Question 2:
    If I can use the climbup and passive monitor at the same time, where I can put passive monitor? My mental Bed Frame looks like the picture below, I don't have box spring, mattress only. I will isolate my bed. So where I can put the passive monitor?


    bed frame by staypositiveforever88, on Flickr

    Question3:
    Where I can put the passive monitor in a car?

    Question 4:
    I will apply a light DE under my bed frame in the carpet, is that a good idea?

    Thank you so much for your help!

    Sincerely

    Staypositive

  2. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Feb 11 2014 19:10:00
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    I am not an expert or pest pro, but I read a lot.

    As the FAQ you read suggests (this one, I think?), there are different approaches to beds (among other things bed bug-related).

    Passive monitors are for giving bed bugs a place to harbor on the bed, so you'll know where they are and when they're there.

    ClimbUps and other interceptor monitors are for catching bed bugs which climb on and off the bed (for monitoring), and for isolating the bed (the idea being if bed bugs are caught when climbing onto the bed, they won't get to you).

    David Cain who invented the Packtite Passive/BBAlert Passive does not recommend using his monitors along with Climbups in most cases. He also argues that "isolating the bed" using methods like ClimbUps may cause bed bugs to spread further in the home. He also does not agree with metal bed frames.

    Other experts here like P Bello and KillerQueen do recommend interceptor traps and do not warn against metal bed frames, to my knowledge. P Bello has been known to recommend isolating beds (not sure about KillerQueen).

    Mixing these approaches is probably not the best way to go. The good news is that people are able to detect and get rid of bed bugs in more than one way. When choosing an approach, an important factor is working in a way that's compatible with your PCO's methods.

    If you choose to isolate the bed and do so thoroughly, there shouldn't be any bed bugs in the bed to attract to the passive. On the other hand, it might be useful for a sofa or upholstered chair...

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  3. staypositive

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Feb 11 2014 22:48:30
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    Thank you Nobugsonme! That's really helpful!

  4. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Feb 11 2014 23:20:46
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    Dear sp,

    Above you ask:

    "Can I use Climbup Interceptors and PackTite Passive Monitor at the same time?"

    You can if you wish however, doing so would be counter intuitive because if your bed is properly isolated then there'd be no bed bugs present on your bed and above the "blockers" to access these monitors.

    For the benefit of others who may not know we should explain/define what bed isolation means here as well.

    Bed Isolation includes the following:

    > Thorough inspection and elimination of all bed bugs which may be present on a bed, bed frame, box spring, mattress, head board, foot board, etc.
    > Installation of bed bug proof encasements.
    > Placement of bed bug climb up blockers.
    > Juxtapositioning of the bed such that none of the bed or bedding is in contact with any wall, floor or other furniture which may be used as a bridge for bed bugs to access the sleeping person.

    Of further note, Dr. Susan McNight, who is the inventor of the Bed Bug ClimbUp Interceptors, is a research entomologist who specializes in blood feeders including bed bugs. She states that "there is no better bait for bed bugs than a human" and many others agree with her.

    As such, an "isolated bed" where such climb up blocker "pitfall" type traps are properly placed is an effective bed bug configuration.

    Note that these climb ups should be properly maintained as per the manufacturer's recommendations and inspected on a regular basis for the presence of trapped bed bugs.

    Additionally, there has been a suggestion that the placement of a suitably sized piece of folded paper, card stock or possibly a paper straw onto/into which the trapped bed bug might harbor would effectively provide such bed bugs an acceptable harborage where they may cling for extended periods of time whilst within the trap.

    Please advise if any additional questions or concerns.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  5. staypositive

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 0:03:06
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    Thank you so much P bello! Could you help me on question 3&4?

    Question3:
    Where I can put the passive monitor in a car?

    Question 4:
    I will apply a light DE under my bed frame in the carpet, is that a good idea?

  6. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 7:26:13
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    Hi staypositive,

    Just to confirm you can use the two in combination but it will reduce the efficiency of the Passive Monitor to do so. This is basically because isolation and interception are designed to impede the movement of bedbugs whereas the Passive Monitor approach is about working with their natural behavior and movements to detect them quickly and efficiently.

    Back in about 2007 when we first assessed isolation as an approach we found that near identical infestations always resolved more slowly than the isolated ones and often by a significant length of time and always required the use of more chemical based products to resolve. It was in fact this along with other observations which really started out drive to develop a better way of working. We believe failing is mainly due to the effect illustrated in the video below where bedbugs simply avoid the pitfall:

    http://youtu.be/UcuWQ0teCr0

    Unfortunately by this stage of the process a few individuals find themselves scrapping the bottom of the pie dish because they have been taking endorsement money or a fee from each sale and as such do not want to loose that revenue stream. While I am sure the inventor did not set out to defraud the lack of extensive testing is illustrated through failures such as in the video and the wide reports of the units cracking and needing replacement. More recently we have had a few senior academics question the data that has been published and one report found the results of their repeat did not match the previous conclusions.

    With regards using Passive Monitors in vehicles, as others know the best links are:

    http://www.bed-bugs.co.uk/bedbugpassivemonitors.html
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bedbugsuk/sets/72157639977141754/

    As you will see from the images the install site for vehicles relates to the front of the occupied and most occupied seats.

    With regards DE its a great product, not immediately effective but in the 10 - 14 day kill range its the best the industry has at present because there is no possibility of resistance/tolerance or when correctly used dispersal.

    There is a great FAQ which you should read first:

    http://bedbugger.com/2007/03/30/faqde/

    However, there is no need to use it unless you have bedbugs as the safest way to use anything is only when you have to and then in the lowest quantities needed.

    Hope that helps, its based on the most accurate information I can give you and benefits from the fact that I have been dedicated to bedbugs longer than anyone else treating bedbugs in the world.

    Hope that helps.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor.

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  7. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 14:06:00
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    P Bello - 14 hours ago  » 
    Additionally, there has been a suggestion that the placement of a suitably sized piece of folded paper, card stock or possibly a paper straw onto/into which the trapped bed bug might harbor would effectively provide such bed bugs an acceptable harborage where they may cling for extended periods of time whilst within the trap.

    Paul,
    I'm confused. You're talking about putting this paper, card, etc. into "the trap"-- do you mean put it in a ClimbUp!?!

    Or what kind of trap are you talking about there?

    Thanks.

  8. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 20:44:53
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    OK, the last thing we want is for you to be confused !

    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. What we're doing is providing a suitable place for the bed bugs to cling to, climb on and hide on or in whilst they're in the climb up trap. By doing so, we reduce the likelihood that a trapped bed bug will continue to crawl around and try to get out thus preventing escape.

    This same concept is used when working with bed bugs in the lab.

    When I place bed bugs in a glass bowl or a jar, cardstock, folded paper or cardboard is provided and the bed bugs rest on such surfaces quite nicely.

    Please advise if any remaining questions on this. pjb

  9. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Feb 12 2014 21:31:30
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    Hi Paul,
    I'd heard of doing that in a jar, and seen lots of images from Lou.

    However, isn't it possible that putting it in a ClimbUp set up under a bed leg that this might faciliate escape, for example if the cardboard shifts slightly? I could see the card peeking out over the edge of the outer well, or touching the bed leg, and then it's game over -- bed bugs go where they came from.

  10. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 21:45:46
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    No, not if it is of suitable size such that this does not occur !

    You could also use a paper drinking straw and cut it into like one inch pieces and bugs will climb inside and be perfectly happy hanging out in there.

    Folded paper or cardstock works well. You will find that they like to crawl up into and rest in within the fold.

    Now, anyone can prepare such items in suitable size such that they do not allow the bed bugs to climb out of the pitfall trap.

    Is this clear now ?

    pjb

  11. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 23:15:32
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    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for your input on that. Very clear!

    I'm curious if you have any comments about the YouTube video David linked to in this post above.

    On the one hand, it does show the ClimbUp trapped some bed bugs. On the other hand, it shows a number of bed bugs showing no interest, which surprised me.

  12. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Feb 12 2014 23:24:37
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    Very informative thread. Thanks everybody!

    They
    Are
    Out
    There
    = TAOT
  13. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Feb 13 2014 9:48:28
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    Dear NBs,

    Above you asked:

    "I'm curious if you have any comments about the . . .

    On the one hand, it does show the ClimbUp trapped some bed bugs. On the other hand, it shows a number of bed bugs showing no interest, which surprised me. "

    While this is an interesting video we need to be careful how we interpret the information presented therein because several questions of concern are raised as follows:

    > What incentive is provided for the bed bugs to continue to quest which would lead them to fall into the pitfall trap?

    > Like many other insects, bed bugs are tactile and will follow structural cues as they crawl. This is why they appear adept at following the edge of the trap as we observe and possibly root for them to fall in. It would be a much better video if they used eerie music dontcha think ?

    > We don't know how many bugs were placed in the arena, how many were caught or how many elected to use the trap as a harborage so, there's that . . .

    > As observers, we may be subject to the false assumption that the trap needs to catch 100% of the bugs in order to be viewed as successful. This is not entirely true.

    > It has been said and nearly ALL credible researchers agree that: ". . . there is no better bed bug lure than a live human . . ." This is why using these climb up devices can be so effective under field use conditions.

    > This is an artificial arena and not representative of field use conditions for many reasons.

    > When performing such tests under GLP standards all test subjects which were exposed to any of the test protocol parameters must NOT be re-used for subsequent testing. If so, this is an inherent test flaw which renders any such observations unacceptable.

    > Overall, it is an interesting video but the value of the information presented is limited at best and any credible researcher who operates under GLP requirements would tell you the same.

    This said, I'll offer the following comments as a bonus just for you NBs:

    * Are these climb up blocker devices useful tools? Yes.

    * Are these climb up blocker devices anything new? No. People have been using this basic fundamental strategy for many, many, many years to keep bed bugs from getting at them as they sleep.

    * Are these blocker devices cost effective options for folks on a tight budget? Hmmm . . . since some folks are selling these devices for as much as five dollars each, I have to say no. If you're on a tight budget you have other options that are much cheaper which include: glass or plastic bowls purchased at a dollar store, PVC pipe end caps purchased at Lowes or Home Depot for less than a buck each, double sided carpet tape, etc. All these items may be used to help isolate your bed, sofa, chair, etc, to keep bed bugs from climbing up the legs.

    * Will these climb up pitfall traps catch all of the bed bugs? No. In any population the individuals act as individuals such that behavior may vary from individual to individual. Some may be easily trapped while others not. However, we would be incorrect if we were to erroneously apply such individual behavior observations across an entire population without suitably considering the related factors therein.

    * Do these devices catch bed bugs? Of course they do. In fact, even when placed in locations away from beds and furniture, recently published research shows that bed bugs may be caught in such traps.

    * Where do such traps fit in the bed bug control world? These traps are part of a growing array of useful bed bug tools. They are one of the tools, they are not the only tool.

    Please advise if any additional questions or concerns.

    Hope this helps ! paul b,

  14. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Feb 14 2014 7:08:47
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    Hi,

    Actually the set-up and design is not that dissimilar to what we have seen academics present with.

    Yes its an artificial arena but that should actually enhance the capture because frankly the bedbugs have few other options, now feeding state could play an affect but again that's not something I have seen the academics factor into their data.

    However the video clearly shows that some bedbugs choose to explore but not fall into the pitfall. I have long thought this is likley to be down to issues such as:

    • Bedbugs ability to test the surfaces they are about to walk on.
    • Any bedbugs int he pit are distressed and thus releasing alarm pheromones

    Since the earliest patent for interception devices is E B Lake 1865 I think its fair to say if they were effective we would still see them about because they would have been mass produced. It would also be the foundation for lots of technical iterations and design improvements over the years but despite the fact that I have looked I cant find them. In fact one of the great things about London is that you can literally find anything from Bronze age tools to a Roman oil lamps through the network of antiquities dealers and junk shops.

    The fact of the matter remains that when we tested isolated versus non isolated treatments the non isolated ones resolved faster and this test was conducted long before we had developed better technical solutions or advanced green methods which only negated the need further.

    The video clearly shows that there is a need to further investigate the isolate versus not isolating approach, but good luck finding an academic who is willing to be a heretic enough to suggest the world may in fact be round and not flat.

    David

  15. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Feb 14 2014 12:24:32
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    No, simply stated, that's wrong, here's why:

    Herein rests the very pitfall which is underscored in my previous post above:

    Using this short video and the limited information presented therein and extrapolating and/or interpreting it to mean anything more than what it actually means.

    > Yes, it's a limited arena however, the bed bugs may behave differently in a limited arena than they might in a real world situation.

    > Such videos raise more questions than provide viable answers.

    > Even still, we cannot overlook the fact that “the bait”, or incentive, used in such arenas is not a human, is not 98.6 F and carbon dioxide from a pressurized tank is not the very same exhalent composition produced by actual live humans.

    > If alarm/stress pheromone is an issue, then all the bed bugs in this limited sized arena are subject to that factor which further complicates the matter and corrupts the results.

    > The constant reference to the flaws of credible and well respected agency and university based researchers, all of whom operate under GLP, is starting to play rather thin. (For those of you who don't know, GLP means Good Laboratory Practices. GLP sets stringent requirements under which a lab must operate and under which laboratory test protocols must comply.)

    > Please note that what a practitioner reports as being observed in the field does NOT qualify as laboratory data for submittal purposes unless it such data is conducted under GLP requirements. This is especially so for such practitioners who possess an inherent conflict of interest.

    > Isolate v Non-isolate: The conditions abroad are fundamentally different and simply not applicable to what we have here in the US. Such conditional factors of significance include but may not be limited to the following: building design, construction, furniture design, bed design, regulatory parameters, available equipment and products.

    Further, one wonders the validity and underlying reasons of the continued argument against both bed isolation and encasement installation in the face of the existing conflicts of interest present when:

    * Proper isolation renders the use of passive monitors placed upon a bed unnecessary.
    * Proper installation of encasements results in making subsequent bed bug inspections quicker and easier.
    * Those bed bug victims under significant financial stress who can ill afford expensive monitors or blockers can simply use cardboard, folded paper, paper drink straws, dollar store glass bowls or other such inexpensive configurations instead and attain similar results.

    The "Tanglefoot Concept": (It is bed bug related, read on.)
    Back in the 1980s folks in the Northeast States remember the great Gypsy Moth outbreak. Note that Gypsy moths were imported to the US by entomologists in an effort to increase silk production. Of course, some escaped and the Gypsy moth grew to become a serious pest of forests and landscapes due to its voracious feeding which defoliated thousands of acres of forest and landscapes alike.

    One control strategy utilized to combat the feeding of Gypsy moth caterpillars was the use of a product called Tanglefoot. This product was a grease like sticky substance that was applied in a smear like method around a tree trunk to prevent caterpillars from climbing up to feed. You see, even though Gypsy moth egg masses, which may contain 500 or more eggs each, were deposited on the tree bark above the likely application of Tanglefoot, the caterpillars have the behavioral habit of "ballooning" in their silken threads down from trees and from tree to tree only to have to climb back up from time to time thus making the Tanglefoot deal somewhat viable.

    Additionally, another "flavor" of this strategy was to install an approximately twelve inch wide "belt" of burlap or other suitable fabric such that it wrapped around the trunk of the tree and folded over which created a shaded area under which literally hundreds of caterpillars would aggregate. Here, the person would then collect and destroy such caterpillars each morning.

    Right about now, you're asking: What does this have to do with bed bugs?

    Bugs bugs will also congregate under or in such "folds" of suitable material. As such, those interested in doing so can place such configurations of folded carb board, card stock, fabric, cloth, etc. in an effort to capture and destroy aggregating bed bugs. And, the more these substances are used by bed bugs, the greater the likelihood that aggregation pheromone may be deposited by bed bugs which could make your "make shift device" somewhat more attractive to subsequent bed bugs.

    Certainly there is so much to know about bed bugs and so much which is yet to be discovered. Of course, what's frustrating for someone such as myself is when we are privy to certain unpublished information which we are unable to share.

    However, the fundamentals are overwhelmingly consistent, applicable and include:

    > These are insects, they act due to instinct and they are not capable of problem solving.
    > This is not rocket science.
    > There is no magic and no shortcuts to bed bugs.
    > Simply inspect and treat all the places where bed bugs are located and your problems are over.
    > Set your bar high, target zero bed bugs as a result of your efforts.
    > A dead bed bug cannot climb up, bite or continue to cause infestation related problems.
    > Do not walk but run from anyone who says that they have ALL the answers to all the questions for all the situations, they don't !

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  16. KillerQueen

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 13:04:23
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    P Bello - 28 minutes ago  » 
    No, simply stated, that's wrong, here's why:
    Herein rests the very pitfall which is underscored in my previous post above:
    Using this short video and the limited information presented therein and extrapolating and/or interpreting it to mean anything more than what it actually means.
    > Yes, it's a limited arena however, the bed bugs may behave differently in a limited arena than they might in a real world situation.
    > Such videos raise more questions than provide viable answers.
    > Even still, we cannot overlook the fact that “the bait”, or incentive, used in such arenas is not a human, is not 98.6 F and carbon dioxide from a pressurized tank is not the very same exhalent composition produced by actual live humans.
    > If alarm/stress pheromone is an issue, then all the bed bugs in this limited sized arena are subject to that factor which further complicates the matter and corrupts the results.
    > The constant reference to the flaws of credible and well respected agency and university based researchers, all of whom operate under GLP, is starting to play rather thin. (For those of you who don't know, GLP means Good Laboratory Practices. GLP sets stringent requirements under which a lab must operate and under which laboratory test protocols must comply.)
    > Please note that what a practitioner reports as being observed in the field does NOT qualify as laboratory data for submittal purposes unless it such data is conducted under GLP requirements. This is especially so for such practitioners who possess an inherent conflict of interest.
    > Isolate v Non-isolate: The conditions abroad are fundamentally different and simply not applicable to what we have here in the US. Such conditional factors of significance include but may not be limited to the following: building design, construction, furniture design, bed design, regulatory parameters, available equipment and products.
    Further, one wonders the validity and underlying reasons of the continued argument against both bed isolation and encasement installation in the face of the existing conflicts of interest present when:
    * Proper isolation renders the use of passive monitors placed upon a bed unnecessary.
    * Proper installation of encasements results in making subsequent bed bug inspections quicker and easier.
    * Those bed bug victims under significant financial stress who can ill afford expensive monitors or blockers can simply use cardboard, folded paper, paper drink straws, dollar store glass bowls or other such inexpensive configurations instead and attain similar results.
    The "Tanglefoot Concept": (It is bed bug related, read on.)
    Back in the 1980s folks in the Northeast States remember the great Gypsy Moth outbreak. Note that Gypsy moths were imported to the US by entomologists in an effort to increase silk production. Of course, some escaped and the Gypsy moth grew to become a serious pest of forests and landscapes due to its voracious feeding which defoliated thousands of acres of forest and landscapes alike.
    One control strategy utilized to combat the feeding of Gypsy moth caterpillars was the use of a product called Tanglefoot. This product was a grease like sticky substance that was applied in a smear like method around a tree trunk to prevent caterpillars from climbing up to feed. You see, even though Gypsy moth egg masses, which may contain 500 or more eggs each, were deposited on the tree bark above the likely application of Tanglefoot, the caterpillars have the behavioral habit of "ballooning" in their silken threads down from trees and from tree to tree only to have to climb back up from time to time thus making the Tanglefoot deal somewhat viable.
    Additionally, another "flavor" of this strategy was to install an approximately twelve inch wide "belt" of burlap or other suitable fabric such that it wrapped around the trunk of the tree and folded over which created a shaded area under which literally hundreds of caterpillars would aggregate. Here, the person would then collect and destroy such caterpillars each morning.
    Right about now, you're asking: What does this have to do with bed bugs?
    Bugs bugs will also congregate under or in such "folds" of suitable material. As such, those interested in doing so can place such configurations of folded carb board, card stock, fabric, cloth, etc. in an effort to capture and destroy aggregating bed bugs. And, the more these substances are used by bed bugs, the greater the likelihood that aggregation pheromone may be deposited by bed bugs which could make your "make shift device" somewhat more attractive to subsequent bed bugs.
    Certainly there is so much to know about bed bugs and so much which is yet to be discovered. Of course, what's frustrating for someone such as myself is when we are privy to certain unpublished information which we are unable to share.
    However, the fundamentals are overwhelmingly consistent, applicable and include:
    > These are insects, they act due to instinct and they are not capable of problem solving.
    > This is not rocket science.
    > There is no magic and no shortcuts to bed bugs.
    > Simply inspect and treat all the places where bed bugs are located and your problems are over.
    > Set your bar high, target zero bed bugs as a result of your efforts.
    > A dead bed bug cannot climb up, bite or continue to cause infestation related problems.
    > Do not walk but run from anyone who says that they have ALL the answers to all the questions for all the situations, they don't !
    Hope this helps ! paul b.

    Agreed!!

    The video at best is a joke IMO and is missing too much to prove anything. I laughed at it when I saw it in the past and looking at it again leaves me thinking, WTF.

    It's the new math again - stick some cardboard in your bed and continue to let the bugs shit up your mattress and continue to bite you. Hope that they will "pick" this magical piece of cardboard you installed (inches in size) over the thousands of cubic inches they can hide, better known as your entire bed. Hey jack, want some beans?

    OR, stop them in their migration path, stop sharing your bed with bugs, stop being bitten, and sleep more soundly knowing your not sharing your bed with a vampire.

    I've been using interception (climb up monitors/traps) devices for years, thousands of cases, in real world environments, and have yet to have a problem not solved. 99% of the time on the first treatment.

    Regards,
    John Furman
    Boot A Pest, Inc.
    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  17. bed-bugscouk

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 13:07:38
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    Paul,

    If you actually read the post rather than jumping to decry something of the most fallacious of grounds that I am not in the US so I am not relevant you would have seen that we conducted the isolate versus non isolate experiment before we had any other options and as such there was no conflict of interest as no options existed.

    I tested the product as something new to the market and rather than swallowing the marketing claims like so many have done we actually compared to see if it was of any advantage. The fact that in almost all cases the isolated bed locations required 2 or 3 additional treatments compared to non isolated beds was very clear and I did not need to run advanced statistical analysis to see that it was a valid deviation.

    Your claim:

    Further, one wonders the validity and underlying reasons of the continued argument against both bed isolation and encasement installation in the face of the existing conflicts of interest present when

    Is clearly designed to be derogatory and outside of the AUP of this forum.

    I however can rightly claim that as you often forget to include a declaimer acknowledging that you have received funding from encasement companies you repeatedly show a conflict of interest.

    As for your assumption that insects cant problem solve may I suggest you consider some of the following:

    • The bedbug that gets one leg stuck on glue and then gets off, they often then avoid getting stuck again.
    • The bedbugs that have been reported by users as falling down from above an isolated bed.
    • Bedbugs that find their way out of a small hole in a low quality encasement due to the frame of the bed ripping it and return to that location time after time
    • Bedbugs that have fed through some encasements and remained as a viable population associated with an encased mattress

    I have no issue debating the facts with you Paul but when you stoop to bitchy comments and fallacious arguments, which you have been cautioned about before, I find it increasingly difficult to show any respect towards you.

    If:

    > Simply inspect and treat all the places where bed bugs are located and your problems are over.

    There would not be so many 3rd, 4th, 5th treatments and ongoing issues discussed on the forum.

    I have never said I have all the answers but clearly from my track record and feedback from my clients we have workable solution and a method of addressing the issues which is capable of turning some of the worst infested hotels around to the stage where they stop having guest complainants. In contrast your find them and treat approach relies upon the guest being the monitor for the most part and from my position that will never be an acceptable way of working.

    David

  18. P Bello

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 14:34:16
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    Once again, I'm not going to participate in an argument nor stray from the subject at hand.

    This video is merely "an interesting story" and NOT scientific data which can be loosely extrapolated and interpreted to yield the conclusions which are convenient and supportive of any product, methodology, strategy or otherwise and it's ridiculous as well as erroneous to assert so.

    As an example of this fallacy which all can understand, the following:

    a) Note that in the video there were a number of bed bugs which aggregated/congregated under the monitor trap but not "in" the pitfall trap.

    b) Such observations could be interpreted as "a success" by the trap folks because bed bugs were found "at" their trap device.

    However, we must ask ourselves: would this be a fair representation of this observation? And, could this be interpreted as actual data without fair and reasonable characterization ?

    Of course, the answer to these rhetorical questions is no.

    Additionally, this needs to be pointed out to all regarding my professional affiliations such that everyone understands:

    > I work as an independent consulting urban & industrial entomologist and am retained by a broad spectrum of clientele.

    > I am NOT compensated for the sale of products except for the royalties received for the sale of the Night Safe bed bug proof sleep tent device.

    > I am sponsored by nearly all of the significant professional pest management industry manufacturers as follows:
    * For ads placed within my published books: The Bed Bug Combat Manual and The Cockroach Combat Manual II.
    * For presentations conducted at some industry trade shows, conferences and seminars as requested.
    * Under no circumstances will I or have I represented or recommended any products, devices or equipment which does not, in fact, actually work and which I do not recommend to my clients for use against their target pest problems on a daily basis. In short, I cannot be paid by anyone to tell anyone anything that isn't true and/or doesn't really work.

    Now, let's get this crystal clear:

    What happens in London is not applicable to what happens here in the infested section 8 apartments or any of my other such client locations that I'm currently working with here in the US. In my view such information is irrelevant for the many reasons detailed previously one of which is the very fact that we have so many more treatment options available here that are not permitted there.

    As KQ points out and underscores above, for anyone to suggest that the end to an existing bed bug problem is found in having these people continually being bitten in the short term is professionally and entomologically unsound advice which is fundamentally unacceptable when an alternative methodology/strategy, which actually results in the elimination of their bed bugs, exists.

    We're successful on a daily basis and we will continue to do so despite incredible protest to the contrary.

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

  19. loubugs

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 15:01:26
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    Well, now I have to read all the posts here to see what's going on.
    BTW, if people who have a bit (or more) of clutter and bed bugs infest the clutter (it's more 3 dimensional space in which harboring occurs), why not provide the clutter so you can inspect it?
    I've suggested in the past that take a small, folded towel or washcloth - or take a few - and leave these around the bed legs, up at the pillow area, near furniture legs, etc. Use a pale color, not white, so there is contrast between all bug stage's coloring and the background fabric. Eggs will contrast, too. If you have bed bugs already, you can take the harborage debris and sprinkle it within the folded fabric. You don't have to if you don't want to.
    Pitfall traps used to collect various arthropods can have some small harborage materials if you want to collect live creatures. You can use large opening corrugated small cardboard pieces in climb up bed bug monitors, but if they are scattered in the device you will have to maneuver them in order to get a good view. Folded paper and cut up paper straws (as Paul noted) also works. I often note that fan-folded construction paper can be used - staple one end and use a paper clip on the other. Contrast colors, too. The more material you have in a monitor device reduces the ease of view of what's inside and more handling will be required to ultimately see what's going on collection-wise.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  20. Daylight

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 15:12:10
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    Thanks, Lou. The debate goes on, but you bring a calm clarity to the issue. I can see the benefits of both sides. I just want

  21. Daylight

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 15:14:09
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    (hit send too soon)

    to find the quickest and most effective way to annihilate the little buggers from my life.

  22. P Bello

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 16:43:08
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    Additionally, it has already been published that "soiled" clothing (clothes that have human sweat/scent/etc on them) may be used to catch bed bugs.

    Note that researchers have been working on trying to isolate bed bug attractants for quite some time now and that if it were easy and cost effective to do, we'd have them commercially available by now.

    Dear daylight,

    Simply stated, hunt them down in your house and eliminate them. Be thorough !

    There's plenty of information available here and elsewhere on how to do that effectively, it's not rocket science !

    paul b.

  23. loubugs

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 17:03:46
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    Additionally, it has already been published that "soiled" clothing (clothes that have human sweat/scent/etc on them) may be used to catch bed bugs.

    Yes, forgot to mention this. Worn socks have been used indirectly, too, in Potter's study by placing cotton absorbent pads in the sock while you wear them and then using the pad in tests. In that same thought, you could take the towels or washcloths and leave these in the hamper or clothes basket full of soiled clothing to be washed for a few days or longer, then fold them and place as harborage monitors.

  24. Daylight

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 17:22:57
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    Hi Paul,

    Give me rocket science any day. It has to be a whole lot easier than trying to find the elusive little devils.

  25. P Bello

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 20:54:53
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    I think Dr. Stephen Kells at Univ of MN also presented on the worn clothing thing as well.

    Rocket Science - well, you could make things as complicated as you wish daylight however, it's funny how the simple solutions seem to work consistently.

    pjb

  26. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Feb 14 2014 22:34:31
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    I can see both approaches (isolating, not isolating) as having benefits and I am not in a position to personally test the effectiveness of either or of passives.

    However, I can comment on the policies of this website, and try to uphold them in the spirit in which they're intended.

    So please read on:

    Paul said,

    Further, one wonders [at] the validity and underlying reasons of the continued argument against both bed isolation and encasement installation in the face of the existing conflicts of interest present when:

    * Proper isolation renders the use of passive monitors placed upon a bed unnecessary.
    * Proper installation of encasements results in making subsequent bed bug inspections quicker and easier.
    * Those bed bug victims under significant financial stress who can ill afford expensive monitors or blockers can simply use cardboard, folded paper, paper drink straws, dollar store glass bowls or other such inexpensive configurations instead and attain similar results.

    And David said, in response,

    Your claim:

    "Further, one wonders [at] the validity and underlying reasons of the continued argument against both bed isolation and encasement installation in the face of the existing conflicts of interest present when"

    Is clearly designed to be derogatory and outside of the AUP of this forum.

    This particular exchange poses a conundrum for me.

    Let me explain.

    My understanding of Paul's comments above is that Paul is suggesting David may have a conflict of interest in arguing against isolation because the product David invented and sells (passive monitors, aka BBAlert Passive/Packtite Passive) isn't necessary if people isolate their beds. Paul also seems to be suggesting homemade items can work as well as monitors.

    Those seem like arguments that can be made. (Understand that I am not saying I whether agree with either of them, or not.)

    Now, understand that in saying this, I'm assuming Paul has experience leading him to believe bed isolation is not that problematic and does more good for the client than harm, and I'm assuming Paul has experience leading him to believe homemade items can work as well as purchased monitors).

    That doesn't mean David doesn't also have experience leading him to believe that his monitors work much better than homemade items, or that David doesn't also have experience leading him to believe isolation is problematic and to be avoided.

    It's possible that, based on their unique experiences, both of these positions are valid. It's not entirely clear to me that any experiments they each conducted are similar enough to rule out the possibility of either of them being right, while the other also believes he is right.

    Nor is it true that I can assess whether David or Paul is "right" about purchased monitors being better than (/not better than) homemade products, or about bed isolation being a bad idea (/good idea). From where I stand, most of the rest of us don't have enough data to assess those questions. By this I mean, those of us without experience testing purchased products vs. homemade products or testing bed isolation.

    All the rest of us have to go on is the fact that we otherwise find David and Paul to be reasonable people and experts on bed bugs, as most of us do. At this time, and correct me if I am wrong, I am not aware of any independent studies proving or disproving either of these points.

    I can see why David would read Paul's statement as an insult, both because Paul is implying that David's product is no more effective than handmade items, and because Paul's suggesting David has ulterior motives in not recommending bed isolation.

    That said, I am not going to delete the comments at this time, and here's why. We need to be able to talk about products and approaches, and why they are useful (or not) and which are best practices.

    David, as a parallel to this, you've suggested in the past on the forums (I'm paraphrasing, so please correct me if I am getting this wrong) that US PCOs promote products like encasements partly because they can make a lot of money selling them, and that US PCOs should not be using the [amount or type of] residual chemical pesticides they do due to health and environmental issues which can be otherwise avoided, using other treatment methods. Those are also valid arguments.

    If one comes to the conclusions Paul seems to have, then it would seem to suggest something about the integrity and goals of the individual who makes these professional choices, but the same would seem to be true of David's criticisms of US PCOs using encasements/residual chemical pesticides, which imply something about the integrity and goals of individuals who develop/market encasements or choose to use residual chemical pesticides as they do.

    I'm not sure how you can critically examine the use of specific products or treatment approaches to bed bugs without implying something about people who currently use, develop or market those products/approaches.

    If passive monitors are a valid approach, and can't be effectively substituted for by a homemade item, and if isolation really is a problem, we need to be able to discuss these products and approaches, and the evidence for these claims (where available). You -- the experts -- don't have to agree on everything and you may have different opinions on some of this.

    And those different opinions may be based on valid experiences of evidence, as opposed to ulterior motives. In other words, you may have seen different things.

    All that said, I welcome user input (via direct channels, please) about the site's policies and whether I'm applying them correctly.

    I also want to reiterate that beyond the somewhat murky issues I described above, I appreciate that this discussion is being held in a civil manner and without attacks on the person. I hope it will continue in that vein.

  27. winnipegbedbugheating

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 0:10:29
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    Hello all,

    This is the first time I have engaged in discussion in this board. I was invited to participate by one of the members who alerted me to discussions of some of my videos.

    For background I have been a licenced exterminator for just over 5 years specializing in bed bugs. I built Canada's first bed bug heating trailer in my back yard back in 2007 and continue using this useful device. Most of my work is in inner city multi family which has more challenges than the average setting. To date I have personally treated (lifted the couch, sprayed the baseboard, etc) well over a thousand suites. This hands on work, together with my position as an inner city landlord and occasional experiment, has been my education. And I love learning.

    I would like to echo P. Bello when he states”Do not walk but run from anyone who says they have ALL the answers to all the questions for all situations, they don't!” I agree. I attempted a comprehensive review of all the literature in 2007 and it was skimpy indeed. There is so much we do not know. Modern research is improving that predicament but we are a long way off from truly understanding the bed bug. As such I would like to contribute my modest observations.

    The video experiment was made in response to my observations of bed bugs harbouring on the sides of climb up interceptors in apartment suites suggesting a certain failure rate. (I have purchased approximately ten thousand of these devices and most of them have been reused countless times). I would suggest that anyone with any amount of experience with the interceptors would have to admit that bed bugs do periodically harbour on the outside of the interceptor – even with ideal bait directly above them. That is why I would never use black interceptors – you can't see the bugs on the sides.
    There was no effort to make an ideal experiment for this experiment – only to understand the mechanism by which the bugs did not enter the interceptor. As mentioned earlier we do not fully understand how bed bugs find their host or what cues they look for other than co2 and heat which are primary drivers and certain smells which have a small value. As such any experiment, even under the most carefully controlled environment, will not duplicate what is observed in field use. As such I consider field experiments far superior to lab experiments. And field use shows a certain percentage of bed bugs are repelled by interceptors. The video documented the mechanism of the repellency.
    Further to understanding this observed repellency I have found in my experiments that bed bugs are extremely cautious when subjected to changes in substrates and especially slippery substrates. The interceptors design incorporates a sudden change of climbable to slippery which is a part of the repellency. Also bed bugs are not fond of climbing down anything and do so with great care. See Lou Sorkin's video of him feeding bed bugs in a jar and note the bugs do not readily climb down the paper in the jar to access an obvious blood meal (Lou's arm provides the heat lure which rises so the bugs know very well where the meal is and yet they do not go down). I experimented with a square interceptor made of plywood to see if bugs would go down in the non slippery “pitfall” of that trap and the initial response was similar to the plastic interceptor – the bugs went round and round the lip of the “pitfall.” So the interceptor has built into its design two mechanisms of repellency. The video demonstrates the result.

    Having said all this I still consider the interceptor to be extremely valuable and I continue to use them and recommend them. But they have a weakness that must be addressed. For example if you use interceptors proactively without chemical treatments a certain percentage of the bugs will be repelled and chase the hosts elsewhere in the suite causing great harm. See my blog entitled “Observations on the spread patterns of bed bugs when the bed is preemptively isolated with climb up interceptors.” See also my blog entitled “climb up interceptors do they work?”

    Regarding Stay positive's excellent question:
    I always monitor both ways. Both with bed leg traps and mechanical inspections of the bed. In uncooperative settings the isolated bed can be easily reinfested via bugs feeding during the day and transferred to the bed via infested clothing. Also in very small infestations it is possible that the bug is already on the bed and nothing more will be caught until bugs start leaving the bed. I just inspect the bed manually in case that happened. I Have never used Bedbugcouk's passive monitor so I can not comment on that. My gut response to a small piece of cardboard is that it would not work very well when there is so much potential harbourage competing for a bed bugs's favour on a bed. In a bed with encasements I would think it would work better. But David says it works well and I am always interested in learning. I don't know everything.

    Response to P. Bello:

    “if your bed is properly isolated then there'd be no bed bugs present on your bed”
    We often heat sterilize beds and isolate them. In uncooperative settings the tenants rapidly reinfest the bed via infested clothing. There is value to monitoring the bed proper even if it is sterilized and isolated.

    “proper installation of encasements results in making subsequent bed bugs inspections quicker and easier”
    I rarely find encasements (even the better quality ones) that are not damaged and bugs will enter the damaged areas. I always recommend tenants remove them. Often they challenge me with the conventional wisdom of encasements so I inspect the encasements and find holes. Then the tenant removes the encasements. Furthermore a bed that is encased preemptively has very little good harbourage in the bed. If the suite is infested the bugs are then pushed into dressers and clothing which is infinitely more dangerous. Once the tenant has already infested his car, workplace, friends house with infested clothing and belongings the problem of reinfestation is ever present. As such I recommend letting the bugs have the bed and box spring. At least this way there is less risk of transfer to other areas via infested clothing, back packs, etc. As an experiment try inspecting the encasements on hotel beds the next time you go to a hotel. They always have holes where they touch the frame.

    “There is no better bait for bed bugs than a human” I agree 100% All the artificial lures pale in comparison. This is because we do not understand what all the lures are. A human encompasses all the lures. (see blog “co2 traps do they work)” and “FMC trap versus interceptors – a comparison”

    “this (my video)is an artificial arena and not representative of field use conditions for many reasons”
    I agree 100%. In fact there is no artificial arena that even comes close to in situ experiments. Field use with ideal conditions demonstrates there is a certain level of repellency with the interceptor. There is no disputing that fact.

    “Information presented is limited at best”. I agree. The point is to observe the mechanical method of the repellency. Both in situ observations and my imperfect experiment both document repellency.

    “if you are on a tight budget you have other options that are much cheaper which include :glass, or plastic bowls purchased at a dollar store, PVC pipe end caps....double sided tape....”
    Isolating a bed without trapping causes tremendous harm with the bugs chasing the host throughout the suite during the day. At least with the interceptor a large percentage are trapped. Also double sided tape functions poorly (see blog entitled “doublesided tape, does it work”.

    “please note that what a practitioner reports as being observed in the field does NOT qualify as laboratory data for submittal purposes unless it such data is conducted under GLP requirements. This is especially so for such practitioners who possess an inherent conflict of interest.”
    I agree that folks with a vested interest should be questioned carefully when making claims based on experience. On the other hand an experienced exterminator will see and experience much more than could ever be dreamed in a lab setting. I would pay attention to what an experienced practitioner had to say. By that I mean the fellow that actually does the treating – not the office guy. Even talking about bed bugs with fellows that have lived with them for years (rooming houses) are good sources of knowledge. Pay attention to those with hands on experience.

    “proper isolation renders the use of passive monitors placed upon a bed unnecessary”
    Beds must be inspected for bed bugs even if they are isolated because bugs will, if the client does not cooperate, infest the bed with bugs on his clothing. Bed bugs are opportunistic and will feed off the bed in broad daylight if the right circumstances are present resulting in bugs on the clothes. If the client appears cooperative I don't bother inspecting the bed after heating and isolating.

    Re: Bedbugscouk

    “any bedbugs in the pit are distressed and releasing alarm pheromones”
    See my blog entitled “bed bugs, alarm pheromones, glue boards, and DE.” I use interceptors and glue boards extensively and have not found alarm pheromones to be a problem with bed leg trapping. If it were true my efforts would have been mostly unsuccessful. My customers continue to call me so something must be working.

    David goes on describing his methods which do not include bed leg traps. Most exterminators in Winnipeg do not use bed leg traps and they somehow stay in business as well. As such I think that there are many ways of addressing bed bugs. Ideally I would like the experienced folks to reveal their techniques in an open setting but competition pressures prevent that open dialogue. When David outlines a technique it should be investigated to understand what is happening. Perhaps there is something to be learned.

    re: Killerqueen

    In all your experience with the interceptors in “real world environments” you have never seen the bugs harbouring on the side?
    Unlikely, or you are not paying attention.

    You solve bed bug infestations “99% of the time on the first treatment.”
    Given the documented growing resistance to the legally available chemical treatments I find that hard to believe. When I hear statements that sound too good to be true they usually are just that – not true. If it were true you would soon be a trillionaire with all the work lined up outside your door.

    In Winnipeg 7 years ago we could still get rid of bed bugs with a single treatment of Permethrin. Now it is very common to have at least 2 or 3 treatments and many exterminators are shifting to cyfluthrin despite its messier appearance. All the exterminators in the city are facing the same problem. It is not easy like it used to be. The only exterminator I know that promises one treatment options is using propoxur. I know this because, when I follow his work, the caretaker's ask me why my chemical does not smell and leave puddles that stay wet for days. I get calls to fix his work too.

  28. Nobugsonme

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 1:19:13
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    Hi Winnipegbedbugheating,

    I am so glad you decided to participate and hope you will again.

    Feel free to edit your profile to add a link to your blog. There's a "View your profile" button in the right sidebar where you log in, and once you're looking at it, you should see the option to edit.

    As such I think that there are many ways of addressing bed bugs.

    This is about the only thing I know for sure about bed bugs, and it can't be repeated enough.

  29. Daylight

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 8:25:36
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    Hi Winnipeg,

    Thanks for your input. You gave us food for thought. I am trying to find your blog, “Observations on the spread patterns of bed bugs when the bed is preemptively isolated with climb up interceptors."

    I am concerned about whether or not bb's have spread around my house since I've had my bed isolated and was still getting bites.

    Hi Paul,

    I am not sure what the "simple" methods are for hunting down and finding bedbugs. I certainly don't want those methods to be difficult. Are you referring to using things like detection monitors and glue traps? Or some other technique such as trying to draw them out with a hair dryer or something. Please clarify that for me. It would help others to know these methods also.

    I realize that once you know where the little buggers are, then you can go about your slaughter using the tool(s) of your choice.

    I think that pest control is a true science and art. One must be very clever, insightful, and extremely open-minded to take on the bb. There is no one solution, like with DDT. Now things are rather complicated. So, yes, I need it to be simplified. I would like a knight in shining armor to save me from this nightmare. But if I have to join in and fight to the finish to help out, I will do my best. I trust all the experts on this site to deliver the most sound and helpful information there is.

    Thanks to all who offer here their advice and knowledge.

  30. P Bello

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 9:55:10
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    Dear Winnepeg & Others,

    (Hey, do you play any hockey? We're always looking for good players ,eh !)

    Thanks for your comments !

    We must recognize that we're dealing with dynamic circumstances in pest management all the time. If a bed is suitably isolated then we also need to educate the resident on how to avoid the re-introduction of bed bugs to the bed as well.

    "Simple": By simple I mean inspect and treat all the harborage areas where bed bugs are found. This concept is NOT rocket science. And, to state that these pesticides are compromising the indoor environment to the detriment of the resident is a stretch. Sure there are those sensationalized stories of gross misapplication however, thousands of indoor applications occur each day by responsible applicators who follow the label directions which are not reported because they are not a problem.

    Pesticide Products:
    Outside the US there is a broad diversity of pesticide products available for use should we conduct a country by country survey for such information. By comparison, both the K and Canada do NOT have the product diversity available to them that professionals enjoy here in the US. However, in "other" countries pest professionals still have access to pesticide products which are no longer available here in the US, some of which US pros may wish they still had access to. In fact, Dr. M. Potter of the Univ of KY published a study he did in speaking with pest pros in such countries who reported that they had, and this is paraphrasing, "little or no trouble in dealing with bed bugs" using the products available to them there.

    Please note that this parallels what experienced pest pros in the US will tell you as well. Back in the 1960's bed bugs were eliminated with one service visit application and "a retreat" was uncommon using those products we no longer have. Starting as a certified & licensed pest technician way, way back in 1976 we had all those products and they worked very well.

    However, today is today and we need to play with the cards that we're dealt which includes the products available, the equipment available, the regulatory constraints and the local field conditions that we're all dealing with in the regions, areas, states, countries and locals where we work.

    As such, there is no way on God's Green Earth that we will ever come up with a universal answer which applies to all situations and all circumstances 100% of the time.

    Research Information:
    As stated previously, some of us have first hand knowledge of certain research information and what's particularly frustrating is when such information cannot be reported due to various factors.
    However, suffice it to say that wood, paper, cloth and cardboard are amongst the leading preferred surfaces upon which bed bugs will crawl and harbor. To suggest otherwise is contrary to the truth.

    Bed Bug Attractants, Traps & Monitors:
    Despite the efforts expended thus far, we humans have yet to successfully isolate and duplicate the optimal bed bug "lure" or "attractant" such that a commercially available attractant, monitor or trap exists today. However, those of us "in the know" have observed the gross "over selling" and "fantastic claims" upon which the currently available type devices are being sold. Such misrepresentations include:

    > that the unit will draw or attract bed bugs from distances further than they actually do.
    > that the unit will emit attractants for longer periods of time than they actually do.
    > that the attractants emitted are significantly effective for drawing large numbers of bed bugs from an existing population.
    > that the units are reliable.
    > that the units are preferred vs. existing and "natural" harborage sites within the infested location.
    > that the units will be able to lure and trap a statistically significant portion of the population.
    > that the units are cost effective.

    Video Observation on Feeding:

    Above it is noted, but I couldn't quickly find it to paste it here so I'm paraphrasing, that bed bugs don't like to climb down during a video of Lou feeding bed bugs. Some comments on this:

    > We must note that there can be variants in behavior amongst individuals in a population.
    > Some bed bugs will climb down, others up, others may not move at all when we observe them in a feeding jar as well as in a natural infestation population.
    > However, we must also recognize that there is more than just the human temperature which may be drawing the bed bugs to feed upon the human skin when such feeding jars are used to fed bed bugs.
    > We must also recognize that since we are dealing with tiny animals that even seemingly small variants may significantly alter or affect our results as their tiny size may serve to be "a magnifier" of these variant factors. YES, it's a lot to think about and it's complicated for sure. However, credible researchers know that more upon more questions are often unearthed as a result of their work and we discover/realize that we know much less than we thought we did. However, we maintain a thirst for knowledge combined with a healthy skepticism.

    Approach/Strategy:
    It's fair to state that the bed bug remediation approach, methodology and strategies that I support and recommend can be simply presented as: "Kill all the bed bugs present at the infested location."

    Now, how this is accomplished may vary due to certain factors however, we observe two primary objectives which are: a) Prevent any bites from occurring tonight, and, b) Preserve the resident's assets. These concepts have been explained in my previous posts as well as my many publications.

    Overall, I support a comprehensive and thorough approach using a variety of methodologies which present certain redundancies such that layers of protection are utilized. Note that our goal is to deliver zero bugs and we work in a thorough fashion to attain this.

    Additionally, those "how to" and various methodologies for bed bug elimination and remediation work have also been published as well.

    Despite the inference that there are "significant secrets" to bed bug success, there's not. This is bug killing at the basic level and there's no great secret recipe nor is it rocket science.

    Whether you're using heat, steam, vacuums, chemicals or a non-chemical approach/methodology, for bed bug success to occur, you MUST be thorough in order to deliver "zero bugs" ! And, it is best to include a holistic approach which includes suitable education, documentation and in order to attain long term control.

    And, pros are wise to recognize and work to address the limitations of the products, equipment and methodologies that they use such that these limitations are properly addressed during the remediation work. Some of these limitations include:

    Heat: There may be some areas within the structure which cannot successfully be heated. Such areas need to be addressed with other treatment options.

    Fumigation: Some structures may present complexities which may adversely affect the application. Such factors must be recognized and addressed.

    Chemical: In working with both lab researchers and numerous pros at numerous infested locations it is apparent that being thorough is far greater a factor for success than resistance is a factor leading to failure.

    Non-chemical: Non-chemical methodologies are viable but again, being thorough is the most important critical factor for success ! Think of it this simply: if we vacuum or steam say fifty bed bugs off a bed frame but leave say five that we missed would this be a successful remediation effort? Of course not ! Does this mean that steaming is any less a viable remediation methodology than any other? No, that's just stupid !

    I'm sorry that folks have experienced the pain, suffering and mental anguish due to bed bugs. It's sad that many have little or no resources with which to fight this fight. It's sad that there are such discrepancies present in the results attained and/or delivered by professionals in various markets as reported by certain customers and it's disconcerting that there is such discrepancies as to what's available for use by pros and the general public from country to country as well.

    Hope this helps, have a great day ! paul b.

  31. Daylight

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 10:07:42
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    Thanks for the information, Paul. I'm still curious about the simple methods of hunting down and finding the harborages. That seems to be the key to the whole solution.

    P.S. Happy weekend!

  32. Butterfly1972

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 10:40:32
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    I'm sorry that folks have experienced the pain, suffering and mental anguish due to bed bugs. It's sad that many have little or no resources with which to fight this fight. It's sad that there are such discrepancies present in the results attained and/or delivered by professionals in various markets as reported by certain customers and it's disconcerting that there is such discrepancies as to what's available for use by pros and the general public from country to country as well.

    This whole thread has been interesting and thought provoking to say the least.

    And much thanks to winnipegbedbugheating for adding his thoughts as well. It was nice to see a new dynamic added to the conversation.

    But, as much as I've learned from this thread, Paul's statement above caught my attention the most. It's nice to see that level of understanding and empathy for the current situation in the bed bug fight from a pro's point of view. I think it probably reflects the feelings of many everyday folks as well. I know it does for me. Well said, Paul.

  33. P Bello

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 11:06:50
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    Dear daylight,

    Simple, explained just for you:

    1) Learn what to look for, where and how to look.
    2) Get a decent flashlight (check out Lowes for a cree type LED at under $5 US which is a great deal !).
    3) If your close up vision suxdotcom, also purchase a magnifying glass such that you can see better.
    4) Arm yourself with your choice of bed bug killing item. This could be, but not limited to, the following: vacuum, steamer, hot water ( and I mean very effin hot so, be careful), alcohol, insecticide, contact killer or other.
    5) Inspect and treat ALL the harborage sites where bed bugs may be in YOUR home. ALL of them. Not 80% of them, not 85% of them, not 90% of them, not 95% of them, not 98.5% of them and NOT 99% of them. ALL of them. The most important factor in bed bug elimination success is being thorough ! ! ! Leave zero bed bugs; none, nada, zippo ! Set this as your goal, ok? Good !

    6) Now, suppose you don't meet your lofty goal as per #5 above. What should you do? Select the best answer from those below:

    a. Give up because it can't be done.
    b. Cry and give up because it can't be done.
    c. Blame it on chemical resistance and give because it can't be done.
    d. Do it again because you may have missed some and vow to be more thorough leave none this time !

    The math here is rather simple in my view:

    There's a bug + Kill it = No more bug.

    OK, perhaps some of you may read this and think:

    Wow, Paul Bello you are such an arrogant prick !

    To which my response would be:

    You're only half right, I'm not really arrogant ! : )

    However, there is a reason that I'm adamant that any person can be successful in eliminating their own bed bugs. This is so because I've coached numerous people through their bed bug problems over the phone and via e-mail. I didn't do anything but coach them. THEY did ALL the work successfully themselves !

    Even though I've presented this before, the most impressive case was that of a man who successfully eliminated bed bugs in his own home despite being paralyzed from the waist down.

    In my view if HE could do it, anyone pretty much can. As such, if you're an able bodied person, yet you think you can't do it and you're a whiney complaining type of guy, you're not going to garner much sympathy from me. In that regard, I'm kinda-sorta like nike: Just do it !

    And yes, I do have a lot of sympathy for bed bug victims having seen the state of the human conditions first hand and in the worst case, deplorable conditions scenarios many, many times. That's what we pest pros see on a daily basis across the country.

    Hope this helps ! pjb

  34. Daylight

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 12:56:29
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    Thanks for your advice, Paul. It sounds like it would work like a charm if you could actually get every possible harborage.
    I appreciate your response and the time you devoted to it, especially on a weekend. I wouldn't use those words you added to describe yourself. I'd say that you are a successful, knowledgeable, and generous man.

  35. P Bello

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 13:11:28
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    Dear daylight,

    Inspecting and treating all harborages where bed bugs & eggs are present would be 100% effective and that's irrefutable under any circumstances.

    What muddies the water, if you will, is that even though this basic fundamental concept is true, it is a lot easier to say than actually do.

    However, as presented previously, accomplishing and completing this work is NOT impossible.

    For example, if you visit my website you will see the "bed bugs run from heat treatment" video which was taken during our remediation work at a homeless shelter type facility. Note that this is a very advanced infestation yet we were able to remediate this location in 2.5 days of work using all means of control methodologies available to us in a comprehensive and thorough fashion.

    And, all this work was conducted by a team of volunteers who were committed to getting this work done right. No areas were skipped and no shortcuts were taken.

    This was good ole fashion roll up your sleeves, get dirty and work hard type work. To their credit, each of these volunteers did a great job and I know for sure that they'd all be happy to do it again should such circumstances/opportunity become available in the future.

    In short, the good news is that bed bug success is doable for all !

    Have a great day ! paul b.

  36. Daylight

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    Sat Feb 15 2014 13:32:46
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    Thank you, Paul. A great day to you too! Peace be with you!

  37. KillerQueen

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    Sun Feb 16 2014 21:16:21
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    winnipegbedbugheating - 1 day ago  » 

    re: Killerqueen
    In all your experience with the interceptors in “real world environments” you have never seen the bugs harbouring on the side?
    Unlikely, or you are not paying attention.

    You solve bed bug infestations “99% of the time on the first treatment.”
    Given the documented growing resistance to the legally available chemical treatments I find that hard to believe. When I hear statements that sound too good to be true they usually are just that – not true. If it were true you would soon be a trillionaire with all the work lined up outside your door.

    The only one not paying attention is you. I didn't say anything about bugs harboring on the side, you did.

    Yes, I solve 99% of all cases on the first visit. My reputation speaks for itself and I don't really need to get into it any further with you. Sorry you're having such difficulty in your neck of the woods. I often get calls from your area and have even been asked to come up north to treat a few resident properties.

    If you're paying attention, you will learn is more about the guy in the room than product selection. Its just like back in my mechanic days - A good mechanic never faults his tools. I did't than and I don't now. When I was turning wrenches I could repair anything from a front-end loader to a motorcycle, bugs come easy and I could do it in my sleep.

    Regards,
    
John Furman
    
Boot A Pest, Inc.

    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  38. bed-bugscouk

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    Mon Feb 17 2014 9:28:15
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    Hi,

    To be 100%, I see the allegation of conflict of interest to be a key issue in why I see that post as against the AUP but I also see the comments about this:

    What happens in London is not applicable to what happens here in the infested section 8 apartments or any of my other such client locations that I'm currently working with here in the US. In my view such information is irrelevant for the many reasons detailed previously one of which is the very fact that we have so many more treatment options available here that are not permitted there.

    We have previously established that this xenophobic attitude is not in keeping with the aims of this forum. It is again designed to insult and belittle and to imply that the US market is unique and somehow better.

    However, top again be 100% clear on the issue we tested and ruled out the use of isolation back in about 2007 when the products were first coming to the market and certainly before the "academic" data was available for review. The testing was simple and spread out over about 20 cases in a controlled and fairly standard environment. In any given room the beds were either isolated or not based on a random selection when two cases were found of a similar level.

    The results broadly speaking were as follows:

    Light cases non isolated - ave number of treatments needed 1

    Light cases isolated - ave number of treatments needed 2

    Medium cases non isolated - ave number of treatments needed 1.5

    Medium cases isolated - ave number of treatments needed 3.5

    This work was conducted about 12 months before we started our development program which resulted in the filing of our patents for Passive Monitors. On the subject of which I am not decrying people using anything home made but please don't expect to see the same results as a product that has gone through many rounds of development and optimisation. I have in the past made references to six sigma as a design concept, the rules of which are to keep something as simple as possible without over complicating things in both design and manufacture. Simply put every feature is there for a reason and I am not responsible for anyone who does not fully understand the patent (presuming they have actually bothered to read it) and thus leaving out essential design features. Please remember, if its there it's there for a reason and if you don't understand why its there by all means ask but also apprecate that I am duty bound by certain rules that means I cant disclose all the details of the patent. There is also a huge difference between what someone works on themselves for their own use and what they attempt to teach to others for commercial or non profit reasons. In short you invest in patents for very good reasons and frankly I could have retired on the sum of money it has cost me to get to this stage but now they are granted I am also granted certain protections under the law.

    Even the insinuation that my stance on non isolation comes from my interest in what I subsequently developed is completely fallacious as we had conducted that work before we felt we needed to develop something that actually worked. If all the tools out there worked we would not have had the need to develop our own and I could have saved a massive investment program and would have been writing this with an Ocean view.

    I would also comment on the fact that pheromones and aromatic attractants is research that we follow. However, we do not have great hopes for this approach because of the volatile nature of these compounds. They break down very quickly in normal environments and as such need to be replaced 3 or 4 times a year to remain effective. From an additional costing perspective this is not a viable option as the products that we have seen to date that rely upon this need 4 units per room changed 4 times a year at a cost of about $750 per room per year and additional expenses connecting with servicing. Now, whether you choose to support a model based on routine visiting sites based on service revenue models or seek solutions based on tools that help people to help themselves is up to the individual and their conscience and what meets their business aims but for me it was just not viable.

    We actually tested a cost effective organic attractant a few years ago which was extracted from some of our trial work. The academic data supported it being a viable option but in the field we found that it was only 10% more effective when used in a Green approach and only 2%-5% when used in conjunction with chemical control methods. The benefits did not outweigh the additional costs.

    However, the main academic center for research into this is actually in Sweeden and at one of the global meetings the passing of the founder of the main lab was marked with a showing of appreciation for her work.

    Bedbugs are a global issue, people are working on them all over the world and from many different angles and aspects. There are those that seek elusive silver bullet solutions, those that seek standards and best practices which actually have credibility. Some work on novel green techniques and some on advanced detection methods.

    Some countries are further ahead than others in some aspects over others and often its not the ones you would first think of. I know I have spoken before about the situation in Cuba, for those that it is new to the summary is that bedbugs are not an issue in Cuba because they not only have a viable green solution but they have a mechanism for ensuring treatment is available free of charge to anyone who needs it. As such there is no social stigma and in some respects its actually seen as a sign that someone may have a successful side line in renting space out in their home. In the ROW there is a huge "backpacker" and off the beaten track travel community. In the case of many South American and Island Cultures that means people prefer to stay with the locals investing money back into the actual hands of the people rather than corporations.

    To denounce the input of other countries and to falsely claim some form of economic superiority does a massive injustice to those who suffer from bedbugs and have been allowed to suffer through the simple fact that people cant get on-board with the standards that are needed to do this work well.

    I also think that some of the outright rude and bullying behavior is also against the AUP and does not serve these discussions well.

    To winnipegbedbugheating thanks for engaging in the discussion, I am sorry it is heated at times but I will reply to your points as and when I get time today.

    David

  39. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Feb 17 2014 13:43:52
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    Hi winnipegbedbugheating,

    As promised above I have attempted to comment on some of the aspects of the post and the information I can add additional information to.

    winnipegbedbugheating - 2 days ago  » 
    Further to understanding this observed repellency I have found in my experiments that bed bugs are extremely cautious when subjected to changes in substrates and especially slippery substrates. The interceptors design incorporates a sudden change of climbable to slippery which is a part of the repellency. Also bed bugs are not fond of climbing down anything and do so with great care. See Lou Sorkin's video of him feeding bed bugs in a jar and note the bugs do not readily climb down the paper in the jar to access an obvious blood meal (Lou's arm provides the heat lure which rises so the bugs know very well where the meal is and yet they do not go down). I experimented with a square interceptor made of plywood to see if bugs would go down in the non slippery “pitfall” of that trap and the initial response was similar to the plastic interceptor – the bugs went round and round the lip of the “pitfall.” So the interceptor has built into its design two mechanisms of repellency. The video demonstrates the result.

    Thanks for the additional clarification of your observations, I tend not to test things in a small arena set up like that because I thankfully have access to a much more natural space and access to people who are willing to occupy it to keep the setting natural. I first saw your video years after our trial had indicated that isolation had a net effect of delaying the resolution of an infestation. Thankfully some of my clients have been great supporters of experimentation and optimisation and as such they have allowed us to test things at key stages. This might be in part due to the fact that we provide our service on a fixed cost to resolve the infestation so if it took extra visits to correct an issue raised from an experiment they were effectively not out of pocket by the fact. Between us we quickly developed was of looking at the features and benefits and they would often add a more human side to the data that we would have never had access to.

    winnipegbedbugheating - 2 days ago  » 
    I Have never used Bedbugcouk's passive monitor so I can not comment on that. My gut response to a small piece of cardboard is that it would not work very well when there is so much potential harbourage competing for a bed bugs's favour on a bed. In a bed with encasements I would think it would work better. But David says it works well and I am always interested in learning. I don't know everything.

    I have written about this earlier but to confirm it is more than it might appear, in fact I had one funny post presentation laugh with an academic when I went up to thank him on his presentation which included the mention of the thygmotaxic responses that bedbugs illustrate. To his shock I was able to relate it back to one of the final observations we made in developing the product. You may start off with a piece of card in the same way as 4 wheels are the basis of a vehicle but sometimes the things that make things work better are the things you don't initially observe.

    The classic bedbug related example for this is the development of contained thermal units. Although some of them look alike when you know the finer points int he physics involved you can see the same design flaws creep in time after time by those who have replicated rather than innovated.

    Since 2009 we have been using and developing the product tot he stage where for the last 18 months we have not needed to use chemicals in hotel rooms which had the units installed in advance of the introduction of bedbugs. This has included with hotels which were 100% infested on day 1 who by day 10 of the treatment were clear and have avoided guests complaints since (the pre-intervention complaint rate was 2-3 per day. Increasingly we are going one step further and training the hotel staff how to resolve the issues themselves and are providing a backup and QC service.

    I never say I have all the answers but having had a lot longer to work on this than any other bedbug specialist by virtue of the fact that since 2005 I have done only bedbug work I will happily claim and support having a significant head start.

    winnipegbedbugheating - 2 days ago  » 
    Re: Bedbugscouk
    “any bedbugs in the pit are distressed and releasing alarm pheromones”
    See my blog entitled “bed bugs, alarm pheromones, glue boards, and DE.” I use interceptors and glue boards extensively and have not found alarm pheromones to be a problem with bed leg trapping. If it were true my efforts would have been mostly unsuccessful. My customers continue to call me so something must be working.

    I will track down the blog and have a look. I am also always open to learning so long as its not learning people have closed minds. I am a huge fan of DE as a tool but I have had less success with anything glue based even when you give bedbugs no other option they still avoid it. Dislodged and dropping from above to get stuck on glue maybe but I do recall reading some of the pheromone research from Finland used sticking down as a queue to producing alarm pheromones.

    I am not saying any other approach will not work just that some of them have been shown to slow down resolution rather than speeding it up. I often reference this to a set of slide rules and tables, yes they will give you the results tot he calculations that you want but frankly most people use a computer because its faster and easier to work with.

    winnipegbedbugheating - 2 days ago  » 
    David goes on describing his methods which do not include bed leg traps. Most exterminators in Winnipeg do not use bed leg traps and they somehow stay in business as well. As such I think that there are many ways of addressing bed bugs. Ideally I would like the experienced folks to reveal their techniques in an open setting but competition pressures prevent that open dialogue. When David outlines a technique it should be investigated to understand what is happening. Perhaps there is something to be learned.

    I cant speak for them and why they have come to the conclusion but the fact that others don't goes show that I am not alone which is often how things are painted. If a few people gang up and get vocal on an issue the assumption is that the lone voice is wrong. I do however have the clear reputation of being one who sticks to what he says and has kept on the same path since the start, namely:

    • Clear communication and education of the public
    • Better enforces standards within the industry
    • Better tools to fight the issue rather than simply trying to find a new chemical weapon or bigger hammer

    I am happy to share more of the protocols with you, some are even in the public domain with clear procedures such as the Treatment By Passive Monitor Replacement. The more advanced procotols and systems such as our Hotel procedural and training manual are restricted to out commercial partners as are the finer details of our manuals and process for domestic properties but you will find a wealth of resources in my educational and advanced educational sections as well as the portal on Passive Monitoring.

    Hope that clears up a few questions.

    David

  40. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Feb 17 2014 15:47:18
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    Hi David,

    bed-bugscouk - 5 hours ago  » 
    Hi,
    To be 100%, I see the allegation of conflict of interest to be a key issue in why I see that post as against the AUP

    Again, please read my response above again, re: the conflict of interest issue.

    If this were a simple case of someone attacking you and calling you names, it would be a different story. However,
    you have in the past made critical comments about others' products and commented critically on the possible motives of professionals' treatment and product decisions.

    Someone else, likewise, has the right to suggest you might have a conflict of interest, and you, of course, have a right to respond to that.

    Again, if others want to discuss how the TOS and forum rules are being implemented, I will consider their feedback.

    ... I also see the comments about this:

    What happens in London is not applicable to what happens here in the infested section 8 apartments or any of my other such client locations that I'm currently working with here in the US. In my view such information is irrelevant for the many reasons detailed previously one of which is the very fact that we have so many more treatment options available here that are not permitted there.

    We have previously established that this xenophobic attitude is not in keeping with the aims of this forum. It is again designed to insult and belittle and to imply that the US market is unique and somehow better.

    I don't see xenophobia in Paul's words here. He's clearly giving an example of what he means when he says,

    ...for the many reasons detailed previously one of which is the very fact that we have so many more treatment options available here that are not permitted there

    In other words, Paul feels your methods/approaches aren't relevant in the US because things are different here. And this is certainly true of treatment methods which are possible in one country vs. another, including classes of chemicals, DDVP, Vikane, etc.

    Later he elucidates this further,

    Outside the US there is a broad diversity of pesticide products available for use should we conduct a country by country survey for such information. By comparison, both the [U]K and Canada do NOT have the product diversity available to them that professionals enjoy here in the US.

    And again in reference to bed isolation:

    Isolate v Non-isolate: The conditions abroad are fundamentally different and simply not applicable to what we have here in the US. Such conditional factors of significance include but may not be limited to the following: building design, construction, furniture design, bed design, regulatory parameters, available equipment and products.

    An example oft-cited is the difference between typical US mattresses and beds, and typical UK mattresses and beds.

    The UK likewise has options the US doesn't have, like spray DE, but we've been down that road before: Paul thinks it's not an added value and he's entitled to his opinion.

    Note also that lots of countries have products we can't use in the US or UK, like chlorpyrifos. That may be a good thing but there's always someone who thinks they're lucky their guy can use it.

    I don't read Paul's statement as "Go USA!" or "We're so much better than anyone else," though even if I did, I'd see that as misguided jingoism rather than a violation of the terms of use.

    To denounce the input of other countries and to falsely claim some form of economic superiority does a massive injustice to those who suffer from bedbugs and have been allowed to suffer through the simple fact that people cant get on-board with the standards that are needed to do this work well.

    Agreed, but I don't see that as what Paul's doing here.

    I may be wrong, but Paul puts a lot of stock in what academic researchers discover, and there's no evidence this doesn't include those abroad.

    I also think that some of the outright rude and bullying behavior is also against the AUP and does not serve these discussions well.

    Please click "report the post" and quote the actual portion you see as bullying or other violations of rules. I take these very seriously.

    At the same time, I don't always agree about your assessment. As I noted earlier, it's legitimate to say, as Paul seems to be here, that the situations in different countries vary, and pesticides which are legal vary, and you can't compare apples and oranges.

    You may feel your methods are better than those Paul uses, and work better regardless of the differences between countries, and you may be right, but he's welcome to his professional opinion on this also.

  41. theyareoutthere

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    Mon Feb 17 2014 18:25:03
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    I found an interesting link to a discussion about ureic. I guess it is only formed when bedbugs aren't conserving water. Bedbugs may conserve less "water" in the US for various reasons discussed in this thread.

    It's difficult to draw the line where someone is violating AUP, or even good manners. But, I thought the thread below was a great discussion of differences between BB behavior in two countries. But, I'm not an expert.

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/guest-accused-us-of-bed-bugs-the-only-thing-we-found


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