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A Proper Beauveria Bassiana Field Trial

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  1. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Thu Oct 11 2018 23:53:34
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    Hello. I have done quite a bit of reading on these forums in an effort to find a way to resolve my own bed bug problem. I've read through the few threads on Beauveria Bassiana. Namely, the field trial one. Many pointed out issues with the field trial itself, such as the use of other insecticides which blurs the effectiveness of Beauveria Bassiana. Now that Aprehend is available on the market and it's known that Beauveria Bassiana in this setting provides minimal health risks, I think it would be worth documenting my experiences.

    Disclaimer: Everything stated here is to be considered educational only. I am in no way suggesting that one should go against the label on pesticides. Things CAN go wrong and likely WILL. Improper use of pesticides can have varying consequences, up to and including death.

    For some background: I live on my own in a relatively small 1 bedroom apartment. I'm in my mid-20s with a strong immune system. I'm lucky enough to not react to the bites at all. I can't accurately gauge the level of infestation that I have due to a lack of reference. I've only seen one infestation, the one I'm dealing with. I would imagine it's somewhere from mild to moderate, though. I've identified multiple nests on the outside of my bed in just about any crack or crevice available. I can very easily find adult bugs, white nymphs, discarded shells, their nests, and their fecal matter. My only upholstered furniture other than my bed is a rocking chair that is very infrequently sat in, and my computer chair, which I spend a significant amount of time in. I have only ever seen the bugs on my person or on my bed. I haven't spotted them on either of the chairs, nor in any room other than my bedroom (aside from when I spot them on my person and promptly kill them). That said, I work under the assumption that there is at least one bug in a room other than my bedroom, even though I haven't seen one. My bed doesn't have a frame. It is a full sized bed with box spring, and the box spring sits on the floor.

    Unfortunately, I'm not able to afford a PCO, and thus I cannot acquire Aprehend. I did some research on what options are available and came to the conclusion that anything other than Aprehend would require working with 3 different treatments. For example, a dust such as Cimexa, a contact killer, and a residual killer. The price of these, for me, would have been about as much as Botanigard 22WP and a pump sprayer would cost. During my research, I came to the conclusion Botanigard would likely provide a more effective treatment than the other options due to bed bug resistances and the amount of factors involved in correctly applying 3 different pesticides vs effectively applying one pesticide that actively spreads via contact. The other factor in this decision is the hope that, if any bugs do flee and make it outside the apartment, they will have ideally been infected and continue to spread the infection to any bugs they come in contact with. Hopefully reducing the likelihood that the problem spreads to other apartments in the building.

    I have not used any treatments previously, or otherwise attempted to deal with the problem. I decided it was best to just let the bugs be until I came up with a plan, in order to avoid spreading the bugs to any adjacent apartments. I likely brought the bugs in from my previous living arrangements, where they had a significant infestation in all of the rooms and the PCO they hired didn't have a clue how to effectively deal with them. So it's unlikely any of the other apartments had bed bugs before I moved in, and I'd like to avoid the other apartments getting infested as a result of me moving in. I like my current landlord, and even if I didn't, my state's laws say that, given the circumstances, I would be responsible for the costs involved in eradicating the bugs.

    Day 1:
    Received Botanigard 22WP. Did some basic math and determined that to match the quantity of Beauveria Bassiana in Aprehend (9%), it would take roughly 1.5 cups of Botanigard 22WP per 1 gallon of mixture. I made sure the water was room temperature, so that the spores would not be damaged. The water used was tap water. I did not do any filtration to the water. In hindsight, spraying this mixture left a white, crusty film behind, likely the result of not enough water/too high a concentration of the powder. I will use a much lower concentration next time, likely half a cup per 1 gal. It's possible the first treatment will be rendered entirely ineffective because of this. Trial and error.

    I started by spraying an outer perimeter along all of the base boards in my apartment, as well as the other cracks the bugs may be able to traverse (such as holes for piping, cable wires, etc). I started with this step to ensure that if the bugs evacuate the bed, they can't spread to other areas without carrying the spores with them.

    I then stripped my bed and sprayed along the bottom of the box spring around all four sides. I then sprayed everywhere I had identified a nest, to ensure that the bugs would be infected. I then sprayed along all four sides where the box spring and mattress meet. I then sprayed along the top edge of the mattress on all four sides. I did this because some of the nests are on the mattress itself and I wanted to increase the odds that, when the bugs came to feed, they would be forced to travel through the spores.

    During this, I had also directly sprayed any bugs I came across in the process. Because fuck those bugs in particular.

    Day 3:
    Did some inspection of my bed to see if the bugs are showing any signs of infection. I'm not sure if it's a sign of infection or not. Only time will tell. But I have noticed some white spots on some of the bugs. This could either be infection, or it could be a result of me directly spraying the bugs, possibly leaving a residue behind on their shell. Photo attached. I didn't observe the bugs moving any slower than they normally do. I wouldn't expect to notice lethargy this early, though.

    Unfortunately, I couldn't get very good photo quality with my phone due to a lack of natural light. I had to use flash for anything to be visible, but flash creates a glare. But I've marked the locations of the white spots, not that anyone could determine much from the terrible photos. I'll try to take some better ones tomorrow when there is natural light available.

    I want to re-iterate that nobody should be taking this thread as advice, nor evidence that doing what I'm doing is a good idea. It is simply my experiences. Your experiences may vary wildly, to the point of causing death to you or your loved ones.

  2. HelpBB

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Fri Oct 12 2018 11:16:05
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    Hope it works for you

  3. TriedEverything

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Sat Oct 13 2018 1:26:03
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    Please keep up updated in this thread!

  4. ihatethemsomuch

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Sun Oct 14 2018 7:37:18
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    I also purchased the same version of botaniguard a few weeks ago, and have been using it in addition to an exterminator. He seems confident that we got them, but I found a nymph that seemed rather energetic a few hours after he left from the last treatment. Even though I know my place is covered in every legal residual in my state, I'm still scared to sleep in my bed, because I was unfortunate enough to wake up during chow time. The image of the emergent pattern created by them all closing in on my person at once is one I'll never forget. What's worse, is that I'm an ecology master's student, which means one of the things that I study is how quickly populations can rise and fall. I know the staying powers that insects possess.

    Anyway, I've uncovered a few recent research papers in addition to the one that led me to purchase the botanigaurd that had some information that might help you out. Aprehend did more damage almost twice as fast as botaniguard. They suspect the reason is that the oil solution causes a higher number of spores to stick to the bugs the first time, and it's more likely to result in a lateral transfer to their friends, which I believe is what we're both hoping for. I'm going to research different oil types that I might try mixing the botaniguard with, to see if I can make something sprayable for my sheets. The spores last about a week when mixed in a water solution, so you'll want to spray weekly if you're mixing in water though.

    Even if you're trying to make your population die with B. bassiana alone, you still want to physically stop movement between your bed and your room, to contain the bulk of the population in your treatment area. I've done this by placing the legs of my bed in disposable plastic food storage containers filled with baby powder (they can't climb out), and made little climbable on-ramps from the floor with paper towels, so I can trap any of them that try to get on the bed from the room.

    If you aren't sleeping in your bed, you want to use a lure system to keep them moving around on the spores. They mixed a yeast and sugar solution in soda bottles, to release the carbon dioxide that the bugs usually use to find us to keep them moving. They found that using lures for two nights, and then no lures for two nights (then repeat), led to the highest lateral transfer rates, because the bugs spent more time with their friends during their nights off.

    Good luck, my fellow researcher.

  5. bugged-cdn

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Sun Oct 14 2018 18:08:02
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    During this, I had also directly sprayed any bugs I came across in the process. Because fuck those bugs in particular.

    🤣 Love it.

  6. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Mon Oct 15 2018 11:46:00
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    ihatethemsomuch - 1 day ago  » 
    Even though I know my place is covered in every legal residual in my state, I'm still scared to sleep in my bed, because I was unfortunate enough to wake up during chow time.

    Your case may be different. But, in my case, I'm effectively using myself as bait. So not sleeping in my bed would be counter productive. I specifically sprayed areas they would need to travel across in order to get to me, to ensure that when they feed, they will get their dose. Granted, in my case, I don't react. So it doesn't bother me a ton that they bite me, other than the annoyance and general disgust they bring.

    I will be continuing to update this thread, whether my test results in failure or success. I plan on doing another treatment today, as I'm doing weekly treatments. This time I will have to clean up the residue left behind from the last treatment, though. And I'll be using a half cup per 1 gallon.

  7. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Tue Oct 16 2018 16:24:56
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    Got busy yesterday and decided to do the treatment today instead.

    Day 9:
    Took a damp wash cloth and wiped all of the residue from the last treatment away. Fortunately, this was pretty easy. Didn't require any elbow grease at all.

    Made a half gallon of the mixture this time, using 1/4 cup of Botanigard 22WP (1/2 cup per 1 gal). Repeated the same steps as the previous treatment. There is no visible residue left behind after the water dried like there was last time, so that's a positive sign. This time it's more of a clear film of sorts. But you have to be looking for it to see it.

    During the treatment I inspected my bed and couldn't find any bugs showing the tell-tale white fuzz they get from a Beauveria Bassiana infection. I'm under the impression the previous treatment was ineffective due to too much mixture, not enough water.

    It's worth clarifying on how much of the spray I am using. I made 1/2 gal of the mixture, but spraying all of the base boards, my bed, and any other escape points I could find only used a tiny portion of this. Maybe 1/8th to 1/16th of the total mixture actually got sprayed. The rest is disposed of. I move the sprayer pretty quickly. My goal is to just apply a thin mist to the intended areas. I consider any puddles a bad sign.

    I want to re-iterate that nobody should be taking this thread as advice, nor evidence that doing what I'm doing is a good idea. It is simply my experiences. Your experiences may vary wildly, to the point of causing death to you or your loved ones.

  8. HelpBB

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Mon Oct 22 2018 9:22:03
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    Any updates? I hope it is working!

  9. anonabug

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    Posted 6 months ago
    Mon Oct 22 2018 16:08:47
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    I used only a heaping tablespoon of Botanigard in a gallon of 70 degree water. Two treatments, about a week apart. Worked in two different infestations. See my thread for instructions.

  10. HelpBB

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Fri Oct 26 2018 10:30:01
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    I really hope it is working for you. We had our house sprayed with Aprehend. What is weird is nothing feels or looks oily but my sons room where they also sprayed it it turned white and dusty. I hope this is not an issue. I don't think it is to humid or dry. My dehumidifier says 50% humidity.

  11. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Sun Oct 28 2018 16:29:52
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    anonabug - 6 days ago  » 
    I used only a heaping tablespoon of Botanigard in a gallon of 70 degree water. Two treatments, about a week apart. Worked in two different infestations. See my thread for instructions.

    Thanks for the info. I was trying to match the BB content that Aprehend has. But a week or so after the second treatment, none of the bugs are showing any of the white fuzz. I'll do a tablespoon next treatment, which should be tomorrow.

    HelpBB - 2 days ago  » 
    I really hope it is working for you. We had our house sprayed with Aprehend. What is weird is nothing feels or looks oily but my sons room where they also sprayed it it turned white and dusty. I hope this is not an issue. I don't think it is to humid or dry. My dehumidifier says 50% humidity.

    I don't believe humidity is a major concern for Aprehend. At least they claim it's not in their marketing materials. Their solution is the spores suspended in a mineral oil or similar from what I understand, which is how their spores can survive for 90 days after treatment. Fortunately for me, I live in an area where humidity is pretty much always at ideal levels for Beauveria Bassiana.

    Sorry for the lack of updates guys. I only come on here once a week or so. I skipped last treatment because it was obviously ineffective and I was busy. I assure you I won't abandon the thread, though. I'll keep it updated whether it works or not. If the next treatment with a tablespoon of powder doesn't work, I'll have to do some testing with a bug or three in a jar to make sure there are actually active spores in what I received. There's always the possibility that the company I ordered from didn't properly store it.

  12. TriedEverything

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Sun Oct 28 2018 23:42:35
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    Thanks for all the updates and post. I will start my botanigard treatment tomorrow. If it fails, I can still use it in my small garden. I'm curious if I should try to clean up all the Temperid fx first. Thanks

  13. HelpBB

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Mon Oct 29 2018 9:51:40
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    Will [email address username deleted] If you have them in several different places maybe lean up a place with warm water first and leave all the other place alone. Let the place you cleaned up dry then spray everthing. Keep us posted. I hope it works for you too. Maybe also try it with water and maybe some with oil but I wouldn't put the stuff with oil where it can be seen.

  14. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Mon Oct 29 2018 16:51:35
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    Day 22: Did another treatment today. Used a heaping tablespoon into a gallon of water this time. Treated the same areas as before, using the same method as before.

  15. Chronic

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Mon Oct 29 2018 21:09:07
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    Is the population decreasing? From what I heard they don't always get the white fuzz. Maybe capture a few that have been exposed to current treatment plan. Seen how they're fairing

  16. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Thu Nov 1 2018 21:08:22
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    Chronic - 2 days ago  » 
    Is the population decreasing? From what I heard they don't always get the white fuzz. Maybe capture a few that have been exposed to current treatment plan. Seen how they're fairing

    I've noticed I see them far less frequently. It's difficult to objectively say the population is decreasing, however. I have noticed a couple dead ones. Mostly I'm looking for white fuzz and lethargy at this point. Every so often, I will go to one of their nests and poke them to see how quickly they move. I was poking at one of the nests earlier to try and get them to move, and they seemed very hesitant to move at all. Previously, when I had done this, they would quickly move into a crevice where they were much more difficult to reach. This time, they just seemed to sit there until I poked them enough that they were forced to move, and even then they just moved a few millimeters. But, honestly, I don't know enough about bed bug behavior to know if this is an indication that they're dying off or if this could be standard behavior.

    Capturing a few that have been exposed doesn't sound like a bad idea. Given I directly sprayed their nests, and they don't seem to be avoiding the nests I sprayed, I'd imagine capturing a few from that area would be a good course of action.

  17. anonabug

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Sat Nov 3 2018 8:58:42
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    There is someone on this site who captured a dozen or so live ones, put them into a plastic container with some cloth strips soaked in Botanigard and left them in there for 12 hrs or so, then released them. Two weeks later, no bed bugs anymore. They obviously got infected, returned to the nest, and spread it to all the bugs in the dwelling. In lab testing, the highest rate of infection was when bedbugs crawled across cloth saturated with spores.

  18. anonabug

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Sat Nov 3 2018 9:00:39
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    I've never heard of anyone finding nests of bedbugs, and I've certainly never heard of bedbugs that didn't scurry away rapidly. Either these aren't bed bugs, or they're some very sick bed bugs (and given the fungal exposure, any insect could get sick and die - they've all got chitin).

  19. BuggerOffNY

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    Wed Nov 7 2018 8:26:17
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    anonabug - 3 days ago  » 
    I've never heard of anyone finding nests of bedbugs, and I've certainly never heard of bedbugs that didn't scurry away rapidly. Either these aren't bed bugs, or they're some very sick bed bugs (and given the fungal exposure, any insect could get sick and die - they've all got chitin).

    If nobody's found nests, how do we know they have nests? They don't seem all that difficult to find to me. Pretty much any crevice they can hide in. My bed has handles made out of fabric on it. 4 of them in total. Each of them has what appears to be a nest. The box spring has plastic pieces on the corner, which make another nice crevice for them to nest in. What I think are nests have multiple bugs in them who appear to be communicating with each other in some way, plotting their next feast. Discarded shells are also a common feature of these nests.

    I agree they do tend to scurry away pretty quickly when poked at, though.

  20. HelpBB

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    Posted 5 months ago
    Wed Nov 14 2018 11:19:16
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    How are things going?

  21. BuggerOffNY

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    Posted 4 months ago
    Tue Nov 27 2018 17:24:13
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    The population seems to have drastically thinned. Whereas before I would find a handful of bugs in each available crevice. Now I'm only able to find a handful of bugs around the entire bed. I haven't noticed them crawling on the bed at night nearly as much, either. Before I'd find one or two a night crawling on the surface of my bed. Over the past few weeks I've found maybe one or two a week. Probably need another treatment or two to get the stragglers (I haven't done a treatment since the last one reported here about a month ago).

    On the flip side, though. I'm not finding any dead carcasses. I haven't done a thorough inspection, though. It's possible the dead carcasses could be under the box spring or somewhere else.

  22. BuggerOffNY

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    Mon Dec 31 2018 15:43:15
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    The population drastically thinned. But I've been seeing stragglers. Been procrastinating lately and hadn't done a treatment since the last reported one.

    Did another treatment today. This time I flipped the box spring upside down and sprayed the entire inside of the box spring, on the boards (because I've read bed bugs like wood), in the corners where there's some padding, etc. Sprayed the top of the box spring as well, thoroughly sprayed the sides of the box spring. Sprayed the bottom of the mattress, all sides of the mattress. This time I didn't spray the outer walls through the entire apartment. Given the population is so thin, I chose to skip that step and opted to spray the walls all around my bedroom.

    At any given time, I can only find 2-3 bugs chilling on the sides of the mattress. I wasn't able to find any bed bugs anywhere on the box spring. But there are a ton of places for them to hide in there, so I have to assume there's a good chance at least one is in there, and that's the place I didn't hit before. Granted, the way I sprayed, they would have had to go through the spores to get to me.

    It's worth noting that I haven't been able to locate a single dead carcass. I've found shells. But I can't locate any dead carcasses. I'm wondering if the spray is repelling them, or if there's some other phenomenon to explain this. I didn't have a terribly bad infestation from what I could tell. But I'd imagine there would be at least *one* carcass to be found somewhere.

  23. Flybee

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    Posted 3 months ago
    Fri Jan 11 2019 17:44:34
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    Hello, thanks for the teport. How is it going for you ? Do you still see stragglers ? Do you get bites ?

  24. Leila

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    Posted 3 months ago
    Tue Jan 15 2019 13:57:14
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    Did it work?

  25. BuggerOffNY

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    Flybee - 4 days ago  » 
    Hello, thanks for the teport. How is it going for you ? Do you still see stragglers ? Do you get bites ?

    As far as bites, I don't really react to the bites so it's hard to say how often I'm getting bit. But every time I check, I can usually find at least one with a belly full of blood and I'm the only person who lives in my apartment, so it's a safe bet that I am getting bit.

    I just checked today and was able to find multiple dead bugs. Previously I wasn't really finding dead ones. So I'd say there's a good chance they're hiding in the crevices in the box spring itself, and spraying there probably gave them no place to run. I did find a few live ones, but they seemed to be pretty lethargic when I poked at them. Also saw a couple that were obviously newly hatched. They don't appear healthy at all, though. I'll still continue to treat until I'm certain they've all been killed off, which may take a while.

    My position right now is that, BB has worked for me. But it hasn't worked nearly as effectively as Aprehend likely would have, due to Aprehend being a formula that keeps the spores alive for 90 days vs what I'm using likely only lasting a week, maybe two weeks at most. So it's probably not managing to infect enough of them to get every nest, and will require a ton of treatments as opposed to Aprehend. If I'm not mistaken, bed bugs don't have to feed that often. I know they can survive for something like a year without a meal. So my theory is that the short lifespan of what I'm using isn't lasting long enough for enough bugs to come out for a feeding and grab a spore.

    It can't be stressed enough that nobody should be taking this thread as advice, nor evidence that doing what I'm doing is a good idea. It is simply my experiences. Your experiences may vary wildly, to the point of causing death to you or your loved ones. I do not recommend anyone follow the steps I've followed.

  26. Flybee

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    Posted 3 months ago
    Wed Jan 16 2019 16:43:26
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    Thanks a lot BuggerOffNY. I hope Aprehend will be available soon to a much larger scale (and in my country !) It's good news you found dead ones.

  27. anonabug

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    Posted 3 months ago
    Wed Jan 16 2019 22:42:35
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    My son, when he had trouble with bedbugs in his apartment, was able to completely get rid of them by treating with Botanigard every other day. I think it took less than two weeks. He was highly motivated, since he DOES react badly to the bites. They never came back.

    We've used them in an apartment by treating every couple of weeks, and it worked after two or three treatments. That was in humid hot summertime, if I remember correctly. But about a year later, bedbugs again in same two family building, from same family, probably for same reason - out of town relatives brought it in the first time, and probably brought it in again on a subsequent visit. It's a huge immigrant family from a 3rd world country, sleeps on the floors. Really hard to get them to comply with anything. We're treating again, every other week or so, and it's definitely working. I'm sure if we could treat every other day there, it would work better, but it's just impossible to get into the units every other day.

    I think that if you were to treat the mattress every other day for two weeks, problem would be gone.

  28. Leila

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    Posted 3 months ago
    Thu Jan 17 2019 4:26:12
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    Thanks ordered bonigard from u.s.
    Having aprehend shipped from friend in u.s!
    Hope it arrives soon.
    am amazed with all the snarky remarks a couple a years ago when users tried this off label and had good results. It has been approuved everywhere in the U.S as i understand for indoor use.
    Thanks for your updates as its fairly new on market.
    Found lots of comments on botanigard on amazon. So they are helpfull too. But finding nothing on aprehend because so recent?

  29. Leila

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    Thu Jan 17 2019 4:27:14
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    Anywhere else people find experiences with aprehend? Thanks

  30. BuggerOffNY

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    Wed Feb 13 2019 1:48:32
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    Leila - 3 weeks ago  » 
    Thanks ordered bonigard from u.s.
    Having aprehend shipped from friend in u.s!
    Hope it arrives soon.
    am amazed with all the snarky remarks a couple a years ago when users tried this off label and had good results. It has been approuved everywhere in the U.S as i understand for indoor use.
    Thanks for your updates as its fairly new on market.
    Found lots of comments on botanigard on amazon. So they are helpfull too. But finding nothing on aprehend because so recent?

    I just want to clarify. While Aprehend is approved in the US for indoor bug treatment, Botanigard is not. Botanigard is only approved for outdoor use as a crop pesticide. I am not a lawyer, but this is the situation as I understand it.

  31. BuggerOffNY

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    Wed Feb 13 2019 1:51:30
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    The bugs seem to have come back in force recently. Seeing a significantly higher amount of them than what I was seeing two weeks ago. I'm not sure why they suddenly spiked in population. Will start doing much more frequent treatments within the next week or so and hopefully that gets rid of them. If not, I'll be giving up on BB and trying one of the kits that has residual, powder, and contact killer as Botanigard hasn't seemed to work so far and I have no way to get ahold of Aprehend.

  32. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Feb 13 2019 9:41:55
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    Hi,

    I think this post illustrates why this is just not a good idea. It's months and you still have a problem, at some stage you have to stop and say "this is not working well enough".

    Biological control as a subject is littered with good idea applied disastrously and often because of simple errors, in this case the mistake at the core is using something optimized to work in a green house in a location that is not a green house.

    Maybe I am guilty of not making it very clear. When I first encountered BB and bedbugs in the same location it was limiting the extent of the issue but it had not solved it in years. The home was significantly off the range of what is considered "normal" for human habitation and most notably was the damp issue. More cave than green house but unpleasant to work in let alone think about living in.

    However this does not remove the reality that there are green methods, there are self treatment options which are effective and certainly the ones I advocate for take a lot less than the time this has taken you.

    Yes it's a harsh reality that if you added up all the wasted time , money and effort you have spent so far into something that is proven to work you could already be bedbug free.

    I have had feedback that Aprehend is equally not the magic bullet it claims to be, not a shock for those of us who have been around for long enough to see the "product cycle" complete itself. There could be a way to get BB to add value to bedbug cases but the harsh reality is that those methods already work perfectly well without it.

    While you are free to choose to do this in your own home you should think extremely carefully about the ethics of recommending others participate in something that is already failing for you without understanding why that is the case.

    I sincerely hope you read and understand what I am saying.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  33. Flybee

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    Posted 2 months ago
    Wed Feb 13 2019 14:44:09
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    Thanks a lot BuggerOffNY for letting us know how it is going for you. Did you treat recently and regularly before the increase of bugs ? Did you change the brand or formula of Botanigard you used ? Couldn't it come from a neighbour's recent infestation ? I ask you those questions because a sudden increase in bed bugs number seems to be illogical.

  34. bed-bugscouk

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    Flybee - 14 hours ago  » 
    a sudden increase in bed bugs number seems to be illogical.

    Only if you were working on the assumption that it works.

    If you consider the perspective that its not actually the solution that people think (unless you live in a green house) then an increase in activity illustrates that broad spectrum spraying is not the solution.

    Again why advocate for an ineffective solution when there are more reliable options out there?

    David

  35. HelpBB

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    BuggerOffNY so sorry that they are not gone and there has been a surge in activity? Do you think one of your neighbors have a problem with them. I have seen that Aprehend is being sold to others through other sites on the internet. I think you might be able to get a bottle and the sprayer for around $300 if you still want to give it a try.

  36. Leila

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    Ok. Got the apprehend . Because beauvaria seems messy and complicated.
    Ans i have kids. So rather have the fda approuved thing. Did bed feet.
    Did only rectangles under boxspring around boxspring around walls joining bed. Around ceiling rectangle like bit bigger then both beds. Around all outlets.
    Fantastic sprayer worth the money. No mess.
    Took 30 mins.
    No dust . No coughing.
    Invisible. No deippimg mess or anything. No resdiduez
    Did it Yesterday. Until now had small bites every 2 days.
    Wiped up all cimexa and De.
    Lets see if after 9 months of horror this stuff dows something. Fingers crossed

  37. bed-bugscouk

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    Sun Feb 17 2019 3:43:38
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    Interesting comment on Apprehend here:

    https://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/natural-solutions

    Would not want people to miss accurate test data over “fantasy trials”.

    I can’t recall anyone having a positive outcome with the fungus green house strain or otherwise.

    David

  38. BuggerOffNY

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    bed-bugscouk - 3 weeks ago  » 
    Interesting comment on Apprehend here:
    https://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/natural-solutions
    Would not want people to miss accurate test data over “fantasy trials”.
    I can’t recall anyone having a positive outcome with the fungus green house strain or otherwise.
    David

    We get it. I'd appreciate if you don't derail this thread with your fear mongering like you have every other thread related to the topic. I've made it crystal clear that I don't recommend this and that it's not exactly a silver bullet. No need for you to constantly re-iterate the point. Anyone who hasn't figured it out isn't going to figure it out from your walls of text either.

  39. bed-bugscouk

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    Hi,

    I don’t think you do get it.

    Sorry I will post advice as and when it is needed.

    If the owner of the site has an issue they know how to contact me, outside of that this is a public forum.

    David

  40. BuggerOffNY

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    It's worth noting that bed-bugscouk has a vested interest in discouraging the use of Aprehend, considering he sells treatments using other methods. Naturally, he will want to discourage people from using any treatment that isn't the one he's selling.

  41. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 9:25:32
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    Hi,

    It’s worth pointing out that if it worked I would recommend it.

    As it does not I won’t.

    David

  42. BuggerOffNY

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    bed-bugscouk - 3 minutes ago  » 
    Hi,
    I don’t think you do get it.
    Sorry I will post advice as and when it is needed.
    If the owner of the site has an issue they know how to contact me, outside of that this is a public forum.
    David

    So you link to a thread where you claim you had someone else try aprehend and call it "accurate test data"? Why should anyone believe your claims, a random person on the internet who has no actual credibility, over the claims of multiple other people? I'm not trying to argue that Aprehend or BB are great solutions. Obviously they haven't worked out well for me and I've been honest about that. My problem is you constantly derailing threads in the name of peddling your own overpriced bullshit.

  43. BuggerOffNY

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 9:26:36
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    You got any solutions that work within my budget ($80-90)? If not, you're not contributing anything to this conversation. You're just marketing.

  44. BigDummy

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    I've had less than acceptable results with Aprehend, giving it another try on a vacant at the moment, but I'm not interesting in experimenting with a third property.
    Location could have something to do with my results, Florida can be outside the suggested max temperature most of the year.

    Dispersal pattern was a bit odd, if that happens again at this property it may be an issue.

  45. bed-bugscouk

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    Hi,

    No, I did not have someone test it. I had feedback from two people one of whom tested it, the other reviewed the paper about its failings.

    This is the problem here, your fungus addled brain means you post based on your assumptions rather than facts and that includes your statement about me “peddling”.

    I can’t wait to link to the PCT article when it’s available.

    I am also more than happy for someone independent to review both of our contributions to this field and this forum and put this into perspective. Your not the first person to “have a pop” at me, it’s the risk I take being outspoken but it’s one I am willing to take because I know I stand on the correct side of this from a morale and ethical perspective.

    David

  46. bed-bugscouk

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    BuggerOffNY - 13 minutes ago  » 
    You got any solutions that work within my budget ($80-90)? If not, you're not contributing anything to this conversation. You're just marketing.

    This one deserves the same response I gave Dino Miller at a conference when she was declaring it so hard to get a solution for HUD housing less than $75. To get cost effective control you need to get ahead of the infestation curve as we do with hotels and given that we protect those for less than $20 per year it would appear I have a lot to add to the conversation if you could actually listen to what I am saying rather than making assumptions.

    So yeah I can resolve 4 rooms for $80 and often people can do that themselves using the protocols we have already made publicly available.

    David

  47. BuggerOffNY

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    bed-bugscouk - 4 minutes ago  » 
    Hi,
    No, I did not have someone test it. I had feedback from two people one of whom tested it, the other reviewed the paper about its failings.
    This is the problem here, your fungus addled brain means you post based on your assumptions rather than facts and that includes your statement about me “peddling”.
    I can’t wait to link to the PCT article when it’s available.
    I am also more than happy for someone independent to review both of our contributions to this field and this forum and put this into perspective. Your not the first person to “have a pop” at me, it’s the risk I take being outspoken but it’s one I am willing to take because I know I stand on the correct side of this from a morale and ethical perspective.
    David

    That's great and I'm well aware of who you are. But you're not helping anyone. People ignore you because you rant and rave and nobody wants to hear it. I'm not saying you shouldn't put a disclaimer and let people know your opinion. That's fine. I encourage it. If you don't think it'll work, by all means let people know before they waste their money and take an un-necessary risk. But, as someone who saw your posts before I bought the BB, I'll say they didn't hold much weight with me because of *how you approach it*. You can state your position without literally derailing the thread about it. When you start derailing the thread, people stop listening to you. It's simple as that. Doesn't matter how much clout you have on this forum. I don't know anyone on this forum, and neither do the vast majority of people who come to this forum. Therefore, you hold zero credibility with the vast majority of people who come to this forum.

    You also seem keen to ignore the many other variables that could be at play here. For someone who talks about "fantasy trials" and claims to want to keep people to the facts, you don't seem very keen to consider the possibilities. It's entirely possible the BB I got wasn't stored properly at some point and the spores are all dead. I still haven't tested that theory myself, and plan to before I do any more spraying. Because obviously it isn't working. I'm not convinced BB itself doesn't work, because it's been tested by far more intelligent, objective, and credible people than you and I combined, and they seem to think it works. Which leads me to believe there's a factor in my equation that's preventing it from working.

    I get it. This is something best left to the professionals. But understand that not everyone has the luxury of being able to pay professionals for heat treatment. Those people can't simply be expected to live with bed bugs, can they? I never see you offering solutions for those people. The only thing I see you offer is the solution that you charge for. And that's where my problem is. You're simply not being objective and you have a clear, identifiable bias.

  48. BuggerOffNY

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 9:51:03
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    bed-bugscouk - 4 minutes ago  » 

    BuggerOffNY - 13 minutes ago  » 
    You got any solutions that work within my budget ($80-90)? If not, you're not contributing anything to this conversation. You're just marketing.

    This one deserves the same response I gave Dino Miller at a conference when she was declaring it so hard to get a solution for HUD housing less than $75. To get cost effective control you need to get ahead of the infestation curve as we do with hotels and given that we protect those for less than $20 per year it would appear I have a lot to add to the conversation if you could actually listen to what I am saying rather than making assumptions.
    So yeah I can resolve 4 rooms for $80 and often people can do that themselves using the protocols we have already made publicly available.
    David

    If that's the case, you're doing yourself a disservice, then. Because the only posts I've seen from you are discouraging people from using BB. You would get a lot further by offering alternatives. If I saw you offering alternatives within my budget that were tried and tested, I would have gladly gone for that over a new, largely experimental, solution.

  49. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 10:46:51
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    Hi,

    That’s my point. I have made over 18,000 posts to this forum under two ID. All you read is about BB, most of what a I write is not about BB, in fact regular pro’s are fed up of the repeated fallacious crap about BB because it distracts people from things that do work, are more effective and are less “nasty” to deal with.

    I would strongly suggest you actually read 1% of my work before deciding what I am all about.

    In fact I wrote the TbyPMR protocols to help people on low to no budget and if you look hard enough you will find a few cases where I have even sent people things to help them out when they have been on low to no income. Things that work, that are proven to work and are cheaper than an unproven product which we know is failing.

    Heck, I even pay for WiFi access on planes to be able to help people as I travel, all I ask is that you actually read my work before post any further assumptions about me.

    David

  50. BuggerOffNY

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 11:07:06
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    bed-bugscouk - 19 minutes ago  » 
    Hi,
    That’s my point. I have made over 18,000 posts to this forum under two ID. All you read is about BB, most of what a I write is not about BB, in fact regular pro’s are fed up of the repeated fallacious crap about BB because it distracts people from things that do work, are more effective and are less “nasty” to deal with.
    I would strongly suggest you actually read 1% of my work before deciding what I am all about.
    In fact I wrote the TbyPMR protocols to help people on low to no budget and if you look hard enough you will find a few cases where I have even sent people things to help them out when they have been on low to no income. Things that work, that are proven to work and are cheaper than an unproven product which we know is failing.
    Heck, I even pay for WiFi access on planes to be able to help people as I travel, all I ask is that you actually read my work before post any further assumptions about me.
    David

    Consider why it is I have to look hard to find you actually helping people. Quit bullshitting. You've not posted a link to better resources in this thread. You've not done it in previous threads about BB. What's stopping you? I spent a great deal of time looking at all the options. I didn't come across any of what you mention. If it's easier to find information about BB than it is to find these posts you've supposedly written that supposedly work, then why are you surprised people keep trying BB?

  51. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 11:23:43
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    I tell you what, let’s have a deal.

    You stop being a nasty vile rude entitled person demanding that if I don’t give you a personal link that it did not happen and I am sure others will post a few examples.

    Have a look at my profile and randomly pick a thread I have replied to and read a few, or specifically look for the resources I have written such as “blood spots on sheets timer” or “bite primer”.

    If you can’t see my point after 20 posts I will go another round of Groundhog Day for you are repeat what I have already said thousands of times but you can’t see to find.

    David

  52. BuggerOffNY

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    Tue Mar 12 2019 11:32:24
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    bed-bugscouk - 6 minutes ago  » 
    I tell you what, let’s have a deal.
    You stop being a nasty vile rude entitled person demanding that if I don’t give you a personal link that it did not happen and I am sure others will post a few examples.
    Have a look at my profile and randomly pick a thread I have replied to and read a few, or specifically look for the resources I have written such as “blood spots on sheets timer” or “bite primer”.
    If you can’t see my point after 20 posts I will go another round of Groundhog Day for you are repeat what I have already said thousands of times but you can’t see to find.
    David

    So let me get this straight. You come in, claiming to have helped tons of people. I state I see no evidence of such and suggest ways you could *actually* help people. And now I'm a rude, entitled person? You're fucking ridiculous mate.

  53. BuggerOffNY

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    When I tell someone they're wrong, I don't come with anecdotal evidence. I don't come with claims that some study will be coming out any day now. I come with cold, hard, verifiable facts. And when I can offer solutions, I don't hold them behind some bullshit wall. I present them, like any other adult would do.

    If you're so unwilling to do this, I have no reason to change my opinion of you.

  54. bed-bugscouk

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    When the plane I am on lands in a few hours I will happily share with you some posts on the forum.

    I just thought you might want to go and have a look at some of my posts so you could see the vast majority are about helping people with ID’s and advice rather than having to battle over their attempts to use unproven methods.

    I hope a few months got want to offer a few links themselves but given the language you use against people I can see why the BB threads are referred to as a briar batch of crazies.

    David

  55. BuggerOffNY

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    bed-bugscouk - 22 minutes ago  » 
    When the plane I am on lands in a few hours I will happily share with you some posts on the forum.
    I just thought you might want to go and have a look at some of my posts so you could see the vast majority are about helping people with ID’s and advice rather than having to battle over their attempts to use unproven methods.
    I hope a few months got want to offer a few links themselves but given the language you use against people I can see why the BB threads are referred to as a briar batch of crazies.
    David

    Identification isn't the issue here. I've confirmed they're bed bugs already. There are photos in this thread and if you read the OP, you'll see that a professional has confirmed them as well.

    This thread was perfectly sane before you showed up. Ever BB thread I've read has been sane up until the point you arrived.

  56. bed-bugscouk

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    Would that include the thread where botaniguard themselves were quoted as requesting people do not attempt this?

    I still have a few hours left of the flight and then the journey from the airport to my home so realistically you might have to wait till tomorrow before I am in front of a keyboard and screen.

    However if you in a rush try searching for TbyPMR or “thank you David”, the search box is in the top right.

    David

  57. BuggerOffNY

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    bed-bugscouk - 2 minutes ago  » 
    Would that include the thread where botaniguard themselves were quoted as requesting people do not attempt this?
    I still have a few hours left of the flight and then the journey from the airport to my home so realistically you might have to wait till tomorrow before I am in front of a keyboard and screen.
    However if you in a rush try searching for TbyPMR or “thank you David”, the search box is in the top right.
    David

    Let's make this clear. I'm not arguing that BB is a good solution. Nowhere in this thread have I argued that. I don't advocate it. The purpose of this thread was a record of my experience, good or bad. I've made it very clear multiple times that I'm not encouraging people to do this, going so far to say it may result in their death. So arguing whether or not BB is an effective solution is a pointless exercise.

    That said, I don't know why you reference that thread. It was pretty civil unless posts were deleted. And I can understand why they would want to make their position clear.

    As far as waiting, I'm a patient man.

  58. Leila

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    Wed Mar 13 2019 22:51:50
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    BuggerofNy how is the trial going? Any updates?

  59. bed-bugscouk

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    Hi BuggerOffNY,

    Here is one of many examples of where someone has used the approach and methods I have put in the public domain to resolve a bedbug issue cost effectively as well as quickly:

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/they-are-gone-1

    The TbyPMR protocols and more recently the self-treatment packs we have generated are all aimed to cost int he region of $25 per bed that is treated, an approach we put into the public domain to offer the highest possible level of self-treatment efficiency at the lower possible cost, in part to set a standard.

    You can find other examples of people doing this if you search the forum for phrases like "TbyPMR" and "infestation dynamics".

    Here is also a video which shows raw data and results:

    https://youtu.be/YlH5K9W18gY

    There is another I cant find the link for which is a composite of over 750 tripped monitors and in the recent academic text book Advances in the Biology and Management of the Modern Bed Bug the chapter on Hotels illustrates their use to create the best possible solution for hotels. In order to be able to write this my work was validated by one of the worlds leading bedbug academics who concluded "the combination of methods, processes and product does deliver a sustainable solution to bedbugs".

    You may have also missed my 2008 book called "Bed Bug Beware: an easy to understand guide to bedbugs their prevention and control" which has the first clear and viable green self treatment protocol for people, one which only works because it is bundled with education and a guide to help people understand the issue.

    Now I appreciate you may not have picked up on this from some of my posts but it you read a few or read around you will quickly see I do put as much into the public domain as I can. I have been a strong advocate of what works and a harsh critic of what does not work. I have been criticized for being negative about many products prior to their launch and yet people quickly forget that early warning when the product is no longer around. My office wall has a section for "cease and desists" letters from various lawyers around the world, again connected with products that I was outspoken about which are no longer around.

    This is also worth reading (page 33):

    https://www.pestmagazine.co.uk/media/620056/32-33-bed-bug-summit_pest-issue-61.pdf

    While the article refers to around 30C the actual number is 27C. There are huge issues with supply chains for thermal stable products and as such much of the biological activity is gone by the time it reaches the point of application. Please remember it may take 6 months for something to get from manufacture to technicians hands.

    My comments from Botaniguard have been posted before and come from an email sent from their managing director in response to my request for comment. He was emphatic in his request that I discourage others from attempting this in part because of the potential damage it could do to the company.

    The fact remains that if you stack up the options and see what has delivered results the fungus is not solving problems. In most cases we have seem side effects and some ill health and both ethically and morally I think there is a strong case for discouraging its use, not least because there are better options.

    Now it behooves you to not swear and then call someone out for being civil because that level of hypocrisy does not go unnoticed and will always be challenged.

    For the most part this forum is a civil place with the aim of helping people. At times like all aspects of life it can appear to descend into an unruly mess and I am personally very aware of the risk of picking up an aggressive adversary. I have sadly had stalkers and those who seek to be malicious because of my public profile on this subject and will most likely continue to do so in part because of the strain and anxiety bedbugs can put on people.

    In fact it can at time be akin to trying to help a drowning person, they don't mean to try to pull you into danger but their instinct to survive can with some people cause them to become something they would not normally be.

    If you want further examples to illustrate that I advocate methods that work please let me know. I have caught up on things from being away and am no longer typing on a small screen.

    Regards,

    David

  60. paulfoel

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    Mon Mar 18 2019 9:55:27
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    BuggerOffNY - 5 days ago  » 

    bed-bugscouk - 6 minutes ago  » 
    I tell you what, let’s have a deal.
    You stop being a nasty vile rude entitled person demanding that if I don’t give you a personal link that it did not happen and I am sure others will post a few examples.
    Have a look at my profile and randomly pick a thread I have replied to and read a few, or specifically look for the resources I have written such as “blood spots on sheets timer” or “bite primer”.
    If you can’t see my point after 20 posts I will go another round of Groundhog Day for you are repeat what I have already said thousands of times but you can’t see to find.
    David

    So let me get this straight. You come in, claiming to have helped tons of people. I state I see no evidence of such and suggest ways you could *actually* help people. And now I'm a rude, entitled person? You're fucking ridiculous mate.

    Got to be fair this is a very entertaining thread. I hope I wasn't like this guy when I was in my 20s.

  61. paulfoel

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    bed-bugscouk - 5 days ago  » 
    Would that include the thread where botaniguard themselves were quoted as requesting people do not attempt this?
    I still have a few hours left of the flight and then the journey from the airport to my home so realistically you might have to wait till tomorrow before I am in front of a keyboard and screen.
    However if you in a rush try searching for TbyPMR or “thank you David”, the search box is in the top right.
    David

    OP has an unbelievable attitude...... Sorry I'm just so annoyed that you're having a dig.

    I'd just like to add, as I'm sure thousands of others would, that David is an absolute star. He posts on this for forum for free remember.

    In the past, he happily IDed a bug I posted to him - FOR FREE.
    Hes offered numerous advice - FOR FREE
    Hes offered to ID fecal stains - FOR FREE

    He even recently offered to speak to my wife abut things because she was so anxious - FOR FREE

    Honestly, mate, you need to grow up a bit....

  62. itchymama4

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    Joined: Oct '18
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    Posted 1 month ago
    Tue Mar 19 2019 7:07:47
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    I am also here to say that David has been nothing but a calming force. I have been trying to identify what is causing my "bites" for 8 months now. A few months back my anxiety was at its worse, about that time is when David came back to the site on a more full time basis. His words of "if you cant find any of the confirming factors of BB then it's time to stop thinking its BB and deal with what you do know". He has sent me links to try to deal with my carpet beetle issue, sent me links on the green solution, it's basically deep cleaning then not for 2 weeks, then deep cleaning again. He promptly answers every question I have on here. Yes, sometimes it may seem like hes short and to the point but honestly he deals with a lot of people with crazy anxiety and thats the way he has to be. Look at myself. I started receiving "bite" reactions 8 months ago. Still have never found a live bug, except carpet beetles, yet I am still here because I am not 100% convinced that I still dont have bed bugs. What I do know is that it's ok for me to come here with my questions that will help ease my mind and every single expert on here will answer them respectfully.


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