Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Detection / Identification of bed bugs

10 Year infestation video. Not for the weak!

(65 posts)
  1. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 4 2014 23:31:01
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Below is a video of an infested bed frame from an apartment I'm working on. The bugs have already been vacuumed up but you can see years of feces build up all across the wooden bed frame. Where you see white spots on the frame - that is thousands of bed bug eggs stacked on top of each other.

    PS. Change the video setting to 1080P for the best video.

    Anyone have an idea where the best place to put a monitor on here would be? lol I think not!

    http://youtu.be/BAWxNZZwq_Q

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Plugins

    Regards,
    John Furman
    Boot A Pest, Inc.
    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  2. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 4 2014 23:35:54
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nobugs - If you want to embed the video .. please do. I can never remember how to do it.

  3. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 4 2014 23:36:56
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Here is another one from the closet wall inside one of the bedrooms.

    PS. Change the video setting to 1080P for the best video.

    http://youtu.be/xD4MuAlmTCQ

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Plugins

    Regards,
    John Furman
    Boot A Pest, Inc.
    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  4. robinsmom

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '14
    Posts: 1,151

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 1:58:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    OMG... That's...unreal. How did they LIVE this way??
    Hope you wear hazmat suits on the job.

    And I sure wish you were the exterminator for both me AND my employer.

    I'm not an expert just a dumb struggling bed bugger like every body else.
  5. player

    member
    Joined: Feb '14
    Posts: 135

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 5:19:55
    #



    Login to Send PM

    How many bites did the host get each night ? What sort of treatment will be used ? Was the problem passed on to other areas of the building ? Just surreal to watch that someone let it get to that stage!

  6. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 6:03:48
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi,

    Sorry that's not 10 years worth of bedbug build up, it's a year or two at most and only a 9 out of 10 case at that. You should read Richard's paper if you want to see a 10 out of 10.

    The best place to Passively Monitor during the treatment phase would be the head end of the sleeping area as we have found that when using them as an adjunct to treatment you can reduce the numbers through harbourage replacement and also to break te life cycle by having the eggs laid in locations that are removable.

    So long as the introduction method is identified this should take no more than two visits to resolve.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    I am happy to answer questions in public but will not reply to message sent directly or via my company / social media. I am here to help everyone and not just one case at a time.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about pro
  7. loubugs

    old timer
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 12,286

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 6:50:47
    #



    Login to Send PM

    John, You didn't collect any for me? We're trying to get as many examples in NYC (and elsewhere) to run DNA tests. Small amounts of bugs are fine, but 10-50 or more are better.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  8. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 7:33:24
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Lou,

    Do you want some exotics from London?

    David

  9. BigDummy

    oldtimer
    Joined: Dec '13
    Posts: 4,747

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 8:04:05
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Holy shit. I'd love to see the pre-vacuum insanity, they must've been everywhere.

  10. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 9:30:10
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hey KQ,

    Thanks for posting the videos.

    These are exemplary of what we see at severely infested account locations here in the US.

    Above is posted the following misinformation:

    "Sorry that's not 10 years worth of bedbug build up, it's a year or two at most and only a 9 out of 10 case at that."

    Here's why this commentary is incorrect and misleading:
    > Firstly, local conditions may vary due to many factors. Here, we have someone extrapolating data and information observed elsewhere and applying it universally across the bed bug world which is inherently wrong due to variability.

    > The comment above is based upon visual observation available via the video and fails to consider the existence of other information and facts. At this infestation KQ knows this additional information but has yet to share it on the BBF. We have discussed this infestation as it is certainly an interesting case. As a result of KQ's ongoing work here, including his case history investigation conducted with both residents and the LL, KQ knows that this situation has spanned over ten years.

    Overall, when such circumstances are discovered we often wonder how folks can live in such conditions and why they would wait this long to finally initiate remediation efforts. Certainly no one would want to live like this, right?

    We look forward to when KQ gets a chance to provide further information on this account location and report on his success there.

    Have a great bug free day people ! pjb

  11. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 10:27:21
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nasty, John. I feel so bad for those people.

    Thanks for sharing!

    Did you find other harborages outside the bed area?

    I suspect there's an awful story about why his wasn't reported sooner, though I know you might not be able to share details.

    (Note: I understand the seriousness of the disagreement between Paul and David above, and I very much appreciate the way it is being expressed in a professional manner-- thanks, guys.)

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  12. AbsolutelyFreaking

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '12
    Posts: 1,720

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 11:23:00
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Oh. Dear. God. In. Heaven!

    That is truly horrendous and totally incomprehensible!!

    Is that the worse case you have personally had to deal with/treat?!

    Do you feel like you want to tear your clothes off and run screaming down the street upon exiting the apartment?! . . . Or at least take a very long, hot shower with lots and lots of body wash?!?!

    Truly unbelievable!! I can only conceive that the resident(s) were of diminished mental capacity????

  13. buggyinsyracuse

    senior member
    Joined: Aug '12
    Posts: 555

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 12:44:56
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Wowser. I can only imaging there must have been some mental health issues with the poor people who lived in such conditions. Thanks for sharing.

  14. Justmovedhere

    newbite
    Joined: Nov '14
    Posts: 30

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 12:55:25
    #



    Login to Send PM

    This makes me fool so bad for the people who lived there....

    Have there ever been any cases of anemia due to bedbug infestation? I am just imagining all those bedbugs eating....

  15. NY Bug Man

    member
    Joined: Nov '12
    Posts: 294

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 12:59:39
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Amazing video John! I have seen infestations similar to this, but nothing this bad yet. Usually in these situations i just get a gas can and a match.
    kidding.
    Keep us updated on the progress!

  16. robinsmom

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '14
    Posts: 1,151

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 13:01:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    ^
    |

    (Glurp)

  17. loubugs

    old timer
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 12,286

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 13:55:01
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I've come across infestations similar to this one. I would have liked to have seen the activity prior to control measures.
    David, yes, specimens from London would also be welcome.

    Do you feel like you want to tear your clothes off and run screaming down the street upon exiting the apartment?! . . .

    Abs, You're giving away trade secrets. John, is Abs on your payroll?

  18. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 14:00:54
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Paul,

    According to some research that Phil Koehler presented the other year there is a maximum number of bites a human can sustain before they die of blood loss. After 10 years the infestation would have exceeded that level and the occupant would be dead.

    I have worked on many 3+ year cases and a few 5-6 year cases and they are invariably a lot more horrific than what we see in this image.

    It is certainly a long term infestation but 10 years worth of bedbugs it is not likely to be.

    My point is that being accurate is part of being professional and claiming a longer duration than is evident is not that helpful as someone may look at it and conclude their issue has been around for the same length of time when in fact it has not been.

    It would also be helpful if you could be more accurate in what you are saying, for example:

    Here's why this commentary is incorrect and misleading:

    Should read:

    Here's why I feel this commentary is incorrect and misleading:

    Or better still would be to ask me with a civil tone why / how I can make that comment, so as not to come across as being "belittling and arrogant".

    As for my extrapolation of data I can assure you having actually had the advantage of having worked on infestations in over 9 countries I can assure you that bedbugs still follow the same biology in terms of feeding, defecating and reproducing regardless of geographic location , at least when you consider the temperate regions of the world. If you have valid experience which indicates that bedbugs behave differently in the US to the rest of the world it would be helpful if you could share that rather than falling back to the pseudo xenophobic fallacious position of claiming the US is special in some way that you never fully elude to. I think sometimes you forget that I have clients in many countries including the US and as such I have first hand experience of infestations there as well as in other countries.

    Regards,

    David

  19. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 14:30:34
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Lou,

    I will give you some London stock and half of the ones I collected in a Hotel today which is on the out skirts of London, it will be interesting to see if they have a local or more international flavor as its a mainly industrial area with a lot of international businesses.

    If you have capacity for more let me know how many locations you want to collect them from and I will put the word out to the technicians.

    David

  20. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 15:56:03
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hmmm . . .

    Holy crap. We wonder, how can one person be so wrong, so many times. Read on, I'll explain here kids.

    First, let's handle the wrong yet again part here. Above was posted this:

    "According to some research that Phil Koehler presented the other year there is a maximum number of bites a human can sustain before they die of blood loss."

    > I've attended, observed and took notes at Dr. Koehler's presentation of this information a number of times. What's problematic here is that the post above is a misrepresentation and mischaracterization of the actual data presented. However, in either case, let's represent what Dr. Koehler presented accurately as follows:

    * Dr. Koehler and Dr. Pereira corroborated on this data and calculated the number of bed bugs needed to feed simultaneously on a list of animals including humans to result in sufficient blood loss to cause mortality. NOT the number of bites but the number of bed bugs feeding based upon the average quantity of blood intake of adult bed bugs as measured in their lab work. They then applied this consumption quantity to the animals listed in consideration of the average blood supply quantities in such animals. Then, given certain biological assumptions, they "calculated" the number of bed bugs feeding in an acute fashion to result in mortality. Their chart included rodents, humans and cats.

    * Now, what's key here is that they were talking about consumption of blood in an acute fashion. That is, if X number of bed bugs fed on your cat all at once then that would be enough blood loss to kill your cat. In NO WAY was this data presented to indicate that bed bugs feeding on a person over any period of time would result in mortality. As such, we can see how this person misrepresented the presented information. Simply stated, what's posted above is wrong and misleading.

    Now, let's talk about this part and why it's also wrong:

    "After 10 years the infestation would have exceeded that level and the occupant would be dead."

    Here's why this is wrong and smart folks paying attention might have guessed why it's wrong already. Let's clarify:

    * Dr. Koehler & Dr. Pereira presented this data as an interesting "tongue in cheek" side note of a scientific topic on a bed bug control presentation. However, this portion of their presentation was greeted with much laughter and applause when Dr. Koehler showed certain photos and videos involving cats. Those who are familiar with him know that he has a long standing and humorous dislike of cats so, there's that . . . The significant key point here is that they expressly stated the average number of bed bugs if feeding occurred simultaneously. NOT over an extended period of time. As such, the posted assertion above is, you got it kids; wrong-a-mundo !

    And, let's get back to the broader reasons that this person is wrong:
    Now, lets understand that fundamental concepts are either being not considered, ignored or that such concepts are foreign to this person such that he cannot relate to them. And let's note that these are factual points and not subject to opinion here folks:

    > Variability - whether bed bugs or other, when dealing with animals there is great variability in nature which must be considered. There is also variability in the conditions present at the infested location. As such, this variability must be suitably considered prior to rendering a determination and/or opinion.

    Some variable factors which must be considered here include:
    * Nature of the structure.
    * Is this a single family home or multi-family setting?
    * Number of occupants present?
    * The health of the residents therein?
    * The nature and presence of pets, if any?
    * Nature of pest elimination efforts, if any, expended previously?
    * Environmental conditions.
    * Size of structure.

    Hmmm . . . what about time & space related factors that are being ignored here?
    * The life span of the bed bugs present at the infestation.
    * The accumulation over time of bed bug related matter including fecal matter, shed skins, eggs, etc.
    * The number of rooms present.
    * The quantity of available harborage areas available.

    . . . and other such variables which would have an impact on the pest population and dynamics thereof.

    You see, what we have here is somewhat of a "moving target" at best, yet this person is representing that he can make an exact determination based upon the significantly limited information attained solely by viewing these brief videos alone.

    Simply stated, and this is not opinion, it's a fact:
    No such determinations can be made in an accurate fashion without sufficient information upon which to base such determinations.

    End of story !

    Regrettably,

    pjb

  21. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 16:10:40
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Paul,

    The videos do not show anything that justifies or supports the claim of it being present for 10 years.

    If you would like to correct that with proof that it does feel free.

    I had already established the research value of Dr Koehler's work when I saw it for the first time because I have seen cases where the live bug count was already higher than his calculated number.

    Would you care to answer the question as to how many countries you have worked in to be able to establish one of those earlier comments?

    David

  22. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 20:24:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    [Post deleted due to name-calling -- admin]

  23. spicynat

    newbite
    Joined: Dec '14
    Posts: 34

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 20:50:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hello,

    I hope nobody will be offended by my comment. I just wanted to say that I think it's sad that a post that was supposed to be someone sharing a video to inform others turns into some fight. Maybe I'm missing something because I'm just a newbie and that English isn't my mother tongue. I don't know. But I just wish I could find some more positive stuff in here.

    Again I'm just a newbie and I'm not an expert with BBs but I guess that if people living in this infested place vacuumed and cleaned and tried unsuccessful treatments it could maybe look like this, even after 10 years. Because I guess it doesn't mean 10 years letting the BBs "live as they want".

    Anyways... I hope I'll read more about people helping each other rather than fighting.

    Have a nice day or a good night!

  24. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Fri Dec 5 2014 20:58:36
    #



    Login to Send PM

    spicynat ,
    Please don't let the disagreement between a few experts here get you down.

    Paul and David care deeply about their work and they've both been a big help to people here.

  25. bed-bugscouk

    oldtimer
    Joined: Apr '07
    Posts: 18,192

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 5:34:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    [post deleted due to insinuations about another poster's character-- admin]

  26. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 9:37:06
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Dear spicynat,

    Unfortunately, you're right!

    The most important point here is that we should not allow misinformation and misleading posts to occur without suitable clarifying response.

    Here we had our pal KQ, once named top bed bug professional by NY Magazine by the way, post a video to share the circumstances at a severely infested account location where's he's currently engaged. In response, this person chose to post that what KQ told us was not true in addition to a "mine is bigger & better than yours" type post which included erroneous information.

    How was that helpful to people like yourself and others?

    As previously stated, what we do care about is when incorrect, misleading and erroneous information is posted. The primary concern here is that laypersons will not be able to separate fact from fiction.

    As long as correct information is posted, no clarification is needed.

    Have a great bug free day ! pjb

  27. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 10:30:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Oh dear lord!! Albert Jones is rolling over in his grave.

    I'll post an update later tonight but for now, Paul is correct. The video is clear to any professional who does this type of work every day. There is plenty of evidence on the bed frame alone to support a problem longer than 1-2 years.

    Nobody can suggest to "know it all" just from looking at the video. Certainly not from thousands of miles away.

    I stated 10 years because I have the facts of the case and they date back that far. So again, more info to follow.

  28. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 12:33:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Posts by Paul and David were deleted as noted above for being uncivil.

    Note: disagreement is not considered uncivil in and of itself. Posting information others claim isn't factual also cannot be policed by me (as some have asked) if it is not information I'm in a position to judge as correct or not.

    However, name calling and insinuations about someone's character are clearly uncivil.

    As stated last week, I am now deleting posts containing uncivil material in full, rather than trying to edit out the uncivil material, which I had previously done as a courtesy. It's too difficult and time-consuming. The best solution is to just be civil, or your post may be deleted.

  29. NY Bug Man

    member
    Joined: Nov '12
    Posts: 294

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 14:31:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KQ,

    Just left an apartment in Park Slope that was about half as bad as what you posted, but more along the line of filth, clutter, and hoarding. I couldn't get a video because the occupant was present but the conditions were deplorable. The management expressed they've been dealing with the problem with this tenants for 2-3 years. When they say that we all know that 2-3 years is when management found out about the problem. Like i said it looked about half as bad and i would say its about 3-4 years easily. Also usually the tenants in those situations will try to treat themselves which keeps the population a bit lower than it would if it were left un touched. As we all know DIY treating is the worst to deal with as a pro. Its truly a shame that people live like this and let it effect other units in the building. These are the most difficult and sensitive cases but are sometimes the fun ones

  30. loubugs

    old timer
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 12,286

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 17:20:58
    #



    Login to Send PM

    As I noted above in an earlier post, if there are so many bugs, please collect live ones for me for DNA studies. You can PM me if you have any questions. Maybe I'll start a new post about the studies, but for now this will do. A good number such as around 20-50.

  31. theyareoutthere

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 3,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 21:17:12
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Thanks for sharing the video! The floor boards didn't look as bad as I thought they would.

    Interesting about the closet. Was it near the bed?

    Another poster stated that, after drying everything in her coat closet, she found a trail of them on her coat (not sure where). She hadn't worn the coat since May so that sounded odd to me (a non-expert) that they would live in a closet vs. the bed. I guess they come in on shoes and coats.

    And please remember to send poor Lou 50 bedbugs...it was like Lou was the commercial break on a tv show....everytime a NY professional would post a comment....Lou was standing up and waving his arms...remember me! remember me! remember me! Given all Lou does, give the poor guy some bugs!

    I've been on long enough that I skim on this site long enough that I skim mudslinging, but it must be disconcerting and confusing to new people.

    They
    Are
    Out
    There
    = TAOT
  32. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sat Dec 6 2014 22:57:44
    #



    Login to Send PM

    [deleted by admin due to name calling]

  33. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Dec 7 2014 0:45:15
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Above is posted:

    "The videos do not show anything that justifies or supports the claim of it being present for 10 years."

    That’s EXACTLY right, which proves the point. No person from the UK nor anywhere else can determine such facts simply by looking at the video. You can't say it's just two years or over ten years from just the video. As pointed out above you need to consider additional information which you failed to do when you posted your errant determination.

    This is exactly why it's absurd that you posted your opinion that it's just two years. How can you not see that this is wrong based on the limited information available?

    Also posted above:

    " . . . because I have seen cases where the live bug count was already higher than his calculated number."

    Wrong again because you’re comparing apples and oranges. The data presented was explained previously and represented the number of bed bugs necessary on average to result in mortality due to blood loss of an average specimen animal. You are erroneously equating the total population with this data presented which in doing so, erroneously assumes that all the bed bugs in the population would feed at once. Any experienced and competent bed bug professional would know that the entire population does not feed simultaneously.

    Regarding Countries:
    Please note that neither I nor any other US based pest pro participating on this forum have ever attempted to extrapolate our work from here in the US to the significantly smaller pest management market you call the UK. Conversely, you're erroneous assertions apparently remain boundless whether geographic or factual.

    We’re here in the US, not the UK. The following factors are different here:
    The products available to pest professionals.
    The equipment available to pest professionals.
    Home and building construction.
    Furniture, lifestyles, methodologies and industry regulations.
    Economy and cost basis.
    And other factors.

    Poker Players:
    A proficient poker player once explained "You have three queens in your hand but you need to consider that all the other players have cards too. Don't go crazy betting based on your cards alone. To be successful you must consider the cards that the others hold as well rather than just your own hand."

    Why is this apropos here? Because with you, it's only you, your experience, your observations and your own points that matter to you in nearly all of your responses. Simply stated, you are all about you.

    Have a nice day ! pjb

  34. robinsmom

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '14
    Posts: 1,151

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Dec 7 2014 6:17:46
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Hi Theyareoutthere, that was me with the coat. I found the outlines to what I am 99.99% sure ate bb on the collar of a coat. You have to remember, the chair at my job was infested. A cloth chair. Either they got on me and thus my coat or I puty coat on the chair, transferring them directly. At home, that jacket, I threw everywhere...on chairs, my sofa, on the chair by my computer. My cat once sat on tvAt chair and sniffed. I'm pretty angry st myself thati did not investigate why. BB are they only bug my cat seems skeeved by. All others are fair game. This is something pet owners shoukd think about.

  35. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Dec 7 2014 10:03:20
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I'll be back to this later tonight but for now - PLEASE keep the post on topic. Half the reason I don't participate here as much as I used to is because every other thread seems to get hijacked.

  36. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Dec 7 2014 12:11:11
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KillerQueen - 2 hours ago  » 
    I'll be back to this later tonight but for now - PLEASE keep the post on topic. Half the reason I don't participate here as much as I used to is because every other thread seems to get hijacked.

    It's helpful for people to get a reminder about this.

    Thanks, John.

    Everyone, let's try to start new threads when we have a new topic for discussion.

  37. theyareoutthere

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 3,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Sun Dec 7 2014 16:03:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    To stay on topic, KQ, would you or another professional (or expert like Lou) explain why there are infestations in closets. Was the infestation bad in the kitchen and bathroom(s) and did the BBs travel to other apartments. I assume it was an apartment. Thank you.

    theyareoutthere - 18 hours ago  » 
    Thanks for sharing the video! The floor boards didn't look as bad as I thought they would.
    Interesting about the closet. Was it near the bed?

  38. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 0:46:25
    #



    Login to Send PM

    [deleted by admin due to name-calling]

  39. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 8:34:56
    #



    Login to Send PM

    JOKE!

    I shouldn’t even bother because you’re not worth my time at all but I’ll list a bunch of things one would need/want to take into account before making a judgment call about this infestation.

    Professionals here and elsewhere can look at this bedframe and see it’s clearly an advanced infestation. And it dates back much longer than 1-2 years without question. The problem here is you like to argue and you have to be the center of attention and will say anything to get that attention. It hurts this forum and the admin should realize that.

    Do you remember the response you got from the professionals when you said you could smell a single Bed Bug in a room at a major pest control conference? I believe you even said you could determine the sex of the bug without even looking at it based on the scent. For this and many other reasons is why you don’t rate in the professional arena. It’s not a conspiracy the industry has against you. You’re your own worst enemy, not the pest control industry.

    Since you were able to tell so much about the infestation video I’ll look for these answers from you below. Please keep to the subject and answer each question in the order they are given.

    If you’re overwhelmed and can’t answer the questions, just walk away. HINT - You’ll look better if you do. Please bare in mind that these are questions professionals in the US (and I hope the rest of the world) want answers to before we open our mouths and claim to know what we’re talking about.

    1. I gave this one away if you were paying attention. Is this an apartment building or house?

    2. If it’s a house - Is it attached or free standing?

    3. If it’s a house - Are there any apartments within the house and if so how many?

    4. If there are apartments within the house do you know the current condition of said apartments?

    5. What type of construction are we dealing with? Concrete walls, plaster walls, sheetrock? How about flooring? Give all the details you can please.

    6. What is the square footage of the residence that has the infestation?

    7. When was the structure built?

    8. What type of HVAC system is at the residence?

    9. How tall are the ceilings?

    10. Are there any closets in the room? If so – how many?

    11. What other type of furnishings are in the room where the bedframe is in?

    12. How much time does the person(s) spend in the room per day?

    13. How many people live at the residence?

    14. How many additional beds are in the room with the one you saw in the video?

    15. Where was this bed positioned? Example- Up against a radiator, window, or flat wall?

    16. What size is the bed in the video?

    17. How much evidence was on the back of the headboard? Not pictured in the video.

    18. How much evidence was on the front of the footboard? Not pictured in the video.

    19. How much evidence was on the outer side of the side rails? Not pictured in the video.

    20. How many box springs if any are there? How much evidence can you see on the box spring(s)? Not pictured in the video.

    21. How many wooden support slats are there? Only one was pictured in the video.

    22. Has the bed been modified in any way? If so – How?

    23. How many mattresses are being used right now and how much evidence can you see on those mattresses? Not pictured in the video.

    24. How many rooms are there and are they infested as well?

    25. Is this the primary residence?

    26. Where do you suspect the infestation started?

    27. Do other areas of the residence show even more evidence than the bedframe?

    28. Has the occupant done any self-treatment?

    29. Have there been any professional treatments? If so - When was the last treatment done?

    30. If treated in the past –What treatment methods were used?

    31. Does the person(s) work? If the answer is yes - Is the work place infested also?

    32. If this is an apartment building - How many units are in the building?

    33. Have all the other units been inspected?

    34. Do the tenants rent or own their apartments?

    35. Is there a lobby?

    36. Is there an elevator?

    37. How many stairwells are there?

    38. Are there any other units infested worse than this apartment?

    39. How many other units are infested - if any?

    40. If other units are infested have they been treated in the past? How many times?

    41. Have other tenants complained of a problem? If so – For how long?

    42. Is the building listed on the Bed Bug registry? If so – How long do the reports date back?

    43. Does the building have any violations filed with the city?

    I think my point is clear. You know nothing about the problem here and can’t make judgment calls based on what you witnessed in the video. You can’t tell anything from thousands of miles away. Stick to what you know- selling cardboard to people on this site.

    PS. When I walked up to the kitchen sink on day one I found 8 live bed bugs walking around in it. Do you want to tell me what dish soap the person uses?

    PSS. Yes, even the toilet seat was infested. Do you want to tell me what toilet tissue the person uses?

    FullSizeRender by bedbugwarrior, on Flickr

    Regards,
    John Furman
    Boot A Pest, Inc.
    New York's "Best Bed Bug Exterminator" NY Magazine

  40. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 9:08:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Thanks for the post KQ.

    As everyone can see there's a lot of factors and information which must be suitably considered before certain determinations can be made about any such situation.

    Ten years?

    Sure.

    Less than two years?

    Not so much.

    'Nuff said !

    Have a great bug free day one and all ! pjb

  41. btaggart

    junior member
    Joined: Apr '09
    Posts: 99

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 10:32:53
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Killer,

    I have some issues here

    first of all that's 9 years and 10 months 4 days and 13 and a half hours old infestation max.

    second why on gods green earth did you not just put a passive monitor on the toilet on be done with it?

    P.S. to all I really hope your picking up the sarcasm on this one. This is precisely the reason myself and other industry folks do not participate on these forums. there is one gentleman on this forum who will just argue for the sake of arguing to make a name for himself and sell his monitors. Nobugs if you would like to help people get factual proven information on how to help with bed bugs a good first start would be banning the individual who is constantly driving other professionals away. Hopefully if this is done the professionals will come back and more people will be helped instead of just getting wrong information and reading constant arguments.

  42. buggyblue

    member
    Joined: Sep '14
    Posts: 136

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 11:42:21
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Oof. That place looks like a nightmare. I feel for anyone living in or near those conditions. I look forward to learning more details about this situation.

    KillerQueen- thanks for taking time to post these videos as an educational tool for all of us.

    I only wish that what has potential for intelligent, respectful discourse between professionals and lay people weren't getting derailed by argumentative nonsense on the part of one individual who continually dominates the conversation.

    To the rest of the professionals here, thank you for volunteering your time and knowledge to benefit the public. In my own experience, public outreach is demanding, but also truly rewarding and is deeply appreciated by the public, even if folks aren't directly verbalizing their gratitude. So thank you!

    Now, I hope to learn more about this particular situation and what led to the infestation being dragged on for so many years! What factors played a role? Self treatment? Multiple units? Economic factors? Poor health? Landlord-tenant dynamic? Much to be learned here.

  43. NY Bug Man

    member
    Joined: Nov '12
    Posts: 294

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 18:14:04
    #



    Login to Send PM

    When i have thought i seen it all you impress me. I have never seen an infested toilet seat in that condition. Truly amazing!

  44. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:11:39
    #



    Login to Send PM

    NY Bug Man - 2 hours ago  » 
    When i have thought i seen it all you impress me. I have never seen an infested toilet seat in that condition. Truly amazing!

    lol ... Thanks! This place is crazy. I walked into one of the bathrooms and found about 2000 bed bugs ... I was shocked to say the least. Even a hair brush on a vanity had bugs and feces in the bristles.

  45. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:12:59
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Thanks BuggyBlue!

    I'll be limited to what I can share about this place. I'm almost certain this case will be in court.

  46. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:15:59
    #



    Login to Send PM

    btaggart - 10 hours ago  » 
    Killer,
    I have some issues here
    first of all that's 9 years and 10 months 4 days and 13 and a half hours old infestation max.
    second why on gods green earth did you not just put a passive monitor on the toilet on be done with it?
    P.S. to all I really hope your picking up the sarcasm on this one. This is precisely the reason myself and other industry folks do not participate on these forums. there is one gentleman on this forum who will just argue for the sake of arguing to make a name for himself and sell his monitors. Nobugs if you would like to help people get factual proven information on how to help with bed bugs a good first start would be banning the individual who is constantly driving other professionals away. Hopefully if this is done the professionals will come back and more people will be helped instead of just getting wrong information and reading constant arguments.

    I'm sorry braggart. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to count the holidays. =)

    Once again - What you wrote makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, nothing ever gets done about the biggest problem this forum has.

  47. theyareoutthere

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 3,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:28:36
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KQ, feel free to ignore or skim my post....

    To say nothing ever gets done might be an unfair statement. For all we know (civilians/nonprofessionals), Nobugs could be having regular discussions with any member of this forum about behaviour that isn't part of a public post.

    We won't hijack your post ("my people"/my team, etc), but we just don't know what is or isn't being done. If you were a government worker or worked for a large corporation, you would agree that there are a lot of issues that take a long time to resolve.

  48. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:37:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    theyareoutthere - 5 minutes ago  » 
    KQ, feel free to ignore or skim my post....
    To say nothing ever gets done might be an unfair statement. For all we know (civilians/nonprofessionals), Nobugs could be having regular discussions with any member of this forum about behaviour that isn't part of a public post.
    We won't hijack your post ("my people"/my team, etc), but we just don't know what is or isn't being done. If you were a government worker or worked for a large corporation, you would agree that there are a lot of issues that take a long time to resolve.

    Easy killer - I didn't answer your questions (yet) because I was posting specific questions for the person to answer above. Had I answered you - I would/will be giving away answers that I've posted (and planned to post) questions for.

    As for things getting done - When you get emails, phone calls, and private messages about a certain someone over and over ... well, not enough is being done.

  49. theyareoutthere

    oldtimer
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 3,255

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:42:55
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I didn't think you were ignoring my post, especially since other posters seemed interested in it, too. I just meant you COULD ignore my post about Nobugs. I just had to stand up for Nobugs.

    The rest of ya'll are big boys and can take it outside at closing time. Seriously, I do understand the frustration and I moved the Kids OT post up vs. talk about it here. Good point about hijacking earlier.

  50. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 8 2014 21:47:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    loubugs - 3 days ago  » 
    John, You didn't collect any for me? We're trying to get as many examples in NYC (and elsewhere) to run DNA tests. Small amounts of bugs are fine, but 10-50 or more are better.

    lol ... I got you next time, Lou.

    Problem is ... I'm always in killing mode and not so much picture/video/collection mode when I show up for work.

    Are we talking about live or dead samples?

    I have another massive infestation that I'll be working with in about a week. Just need the court papers to clear and I'll be kicking bed bug ass and taking names.

  51. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Dec 9 2014 1:13:36
    #



    Login to Send PM

    btaggart - 14 hours ago  » 
    Nobugs if you would like to help people get factual proven information on how to help with bed bugs a good first start would be banning the individual who is constantly driving other professionals away. Hopefully if this is done the professionals will come back and more people will be helped instead of just getting wrong information and reading constant arguments.

    Hi btaggart,

    Sorry you have felt unable to participate in the forums.

    I am working on revising the forum rules a bit which I think will help avoid some pros getting caught up in arguing so much. I hope you'll stick around and see how it works.

  52. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Dec 9 2014 1:27:46
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KillerQueen - 3 hours ago  » 
    As for things getting done - When you get emails, phone calls, and private messages about a certain someone over and over ... well, not enough is being done.

    John,

    You have seemingly "hijacked" your own thread here, by introducing multiple topics, so I will respond here.

    I realize you think that since you and Paul have lobbied me, and I have not done everything you asked instantly or 100% as you suggest, that no action is being taken. A lot is going on but it's not the "solution" you seek, so you're not happy.

    I could improve on enforcing some forum rules and am trying to do that. However, as I have repeatedly said, I am not going to ban another pro simply because you don't like them or their methods.

  53. BugsUpInFlames

    member
    Joined: Oct '14
    Posts: 140

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Dec 9 2014 1:34:13
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KillerQueen - 1 day ago  » 
    I'll be back to this later tonight but for now - PLEASE keep the post on topic. Half the reason I don't participate here as much as I used to is because every other thread seems to get hijacked.

    This sort of thing almost drove me away just as I first officially joined the forums. I was afraid that if I offered an opinion, my story, or "it worked for me" or anything else, I'd be slashed for it, if what I saw in the very first thread I commented on was any indication.

    That said...I almost couldn't sit through those videos. I saw some very bad ones on Youtube when I was researching them and after my infestation was over, yet these disturbed me like...holy cow. Just awful. *shudder*

    Formerly BeenBuggedMidoriBird
  54. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 0:55:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KQ,

    Maybe start a new thread on this Ten Year Infestation thing by "re-posting" so we can leave all the off topic posts behind and start fresh with this topic?

    There's a number of folks who'd like to learn more about this case without having to wad through that off topic stuff.

    Just sayin . . .

    pjb

  55. KillerQueen

    oldtimer
    Joined: Mar '08
    Posts: 4,271

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 16:52:14
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nobugs - what's been asked of you is not difficult at all.

    Current Pro's, as well as past, don't want to argue "right and wrong" with one individual here. We come here to help people, period. The person every pro has had or does have a problem with constantly questions and or debates us to death. We don't have time like he does to sit on here and debate him. We don't need to prove anything to him. We come to give advice and help the public so when he gets into a thread and claims to be the "all knowing" or insists that what we do is wrong and only he knows what he's doing, it's a put off. Most of the pros who come/came here to help have already made names for themselves and can give great advice to people. What we don't have is time to argue within countless threads. How can you not see that?

    Bottom line - it turns every post into a waste of time for the person looking for help. It stops other Pro's from posting here. It takes away the time that Pro's give to the site. If I have to answer or argue my points with this one individual, I will not have the time to help the public. I'm not here to prove who I am or sell anything.

    My problem? You want to referee but I never see any change in how he does his business here. You certainly afford him a lot of rope. We don't want to argue but he makes it impossible not to.

    Last week I flagged a post for moderation about him selling (or trying to sell) his cardboard monitor. Is it still up? Yes it is. If I posted who I was and offer my services to anyone posting here from NY would that be ok? No it would not.

    It's your site but really it's the people's site. If you allow this to continue you will have the input of one person from the UK. A person who knows little to nothing about pest control in the states. So where does that leave the public audience from the US? I'll tell you - Scratching their heads wondering where to stick that recent cardboard purchase.

  56. player

    member
    Joined: Feb '14
    Posts: 135

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 16:55:19
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Will heat treatment be the method for this condition ?

  57. loubugs

    old timer
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 12,286

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 18:18:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    lol ... I got you next time, Lou.
    Problem is ... I'm always in killing mode and not so much picture/video/collection mode when I show up for work.
    Are we talking about live or dead samples?

    Live is good because they can always die. Living bugs provide RNA in addition to DNA.

  58. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 19:07:33
    #



    Login to Send PM

    KillerQueen - 1 hour ago  » 
    Nobugs - what's been asked of you is not difficult at all.
    Current Pro's, as well as past, don't want to argue "right and wrong" with one individual here. We come here to help people, period. The person every pro has had or does have a problem with constantly questions and or debates us to death. We don't have time like he does to sit on here and debate him. We don't need to prove anything to him. We come to give advice and help the public so when he gets into a thread and claims to be the "all knowing" or insists that what we do is wrong and only he knows what he's doing, it's a put off. Most of the pros who come/came here to help have already made names for themselves and can give great advice to people. What we don't have is time to argue within countless threads. How can you not see that?

    Bottom line - I am working on the situation because the arguing is difficult for everyone.

    You have to trust I am working on the issue. I am not going to discuss how but you should start noticing changes.

    Last week I flagged a post for moderation about him selling (or trying to sell) his cardboard monitor. Is it still up? Yes it is. If I posted who I was and offer my services to anyone posting here from NY would that be ok? No it would not.

    I have previously noted to you on more than one occasion, there is a difference between someone saying "Click here and buy my product" or "Call this number and hire me" (both of which are not allowed here), and "I invented this product and my company uses it successfully" (as David routinely does) or "I helped develop and test this product and use and recommend it" (as Paul routinely does).

    How can we ban people from mentioning a product they use and recommend, even if they have some kind of financial connection to the company (as Paul and David both do, in their own ways)?

    It's your site but really it's the people's site.

    I agree but you have to understand that in others' perspective, not just mine, David is not the sole problem. You all have wisdom to share and do share it and readers appreciate the involvement from all. You all contribute to the arguments and unpleasantness. I hope we can fix the atmosphere and cut out the need for arguing.

    If you allow this to continue you will have the input of one person from the UK. A person who knows little to nothing about pest control in the states. So where does that leave the public audience from the US? I'll tell you - Scratching their heads wondering where to stick that recent cardboard purchase.

    I have a big problem with the way threads get hijacked by arguments and this is the thing I am trying to address. Give me a chance.

  59. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Dec 10 2014 23:45:02
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Above is posted:
    "I helped develop and test this product and use and recommend it" (as Paul routinely does).

    How can we ban people from mentioning a product they use and recommend, even if they have some kind of financial connection to the company (as Paul and David both do, in their own ways)?"

    Stop, please do not involve me in this discussion, especially under this erroneous basis!

    Firstly, any such pesticide product I recommend has been extensively tested, scrutinized and registered by the EPA. There is no fair or reasonable comparison for including the recommendation of such an agency registered type product with that of a monitor device type product where no such independent, third party data review is required prior to the sale and use thereof. This is an apples and oranges comparison and totally irrelevant at best.

    As stated previously, current estimates to discover, develop, test and register an Agency registered pesticide product today is about two hundred million dollars. There is no way that any such development costs, test data and review thereof has been remotely similar to that of any such monitor product.

    Additionally, recommendation of industry leading products which are widely used by the majority of pros here in the US is not remotely similar to the recommendation of a monitor device that has yet to attain broad scale acceptance by the professional industry here in the US.

    Lets all know what we're talking about in a reasonably factual fashion prior to depressing the send post button.

    pjb

  60. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 3:04:11
    #



    Login to Send PM

    P Bello - 3 hours ago  » 
    Above is posted:
    "I helped develop and test this product and use and recommend it" (as Paul routinely does).
    How can we ban people from mentioning a product they use and recommend, even if they have some kind of financial connection to the company (as Paul and David both do, in their own ways)?"
    Stop, please do not involve me in this discussion, especially under this erroneous basis!
    Firstly, any such pesticide product I recommend has been extensively tested, scrutinized and registered by the EPA.

    We're not talking about pesticides, Paul. We're talking about monitors. The EPA doesn't test them, does it?

    My comments are not as far-out as you are implying. You have recommended non-pesticide products you helped develop, like the Mattress Safe bed bug tent.

    As stated previously, current estimates to discover, develop, test and register an Agency registered pesticide product today is about two hundred million dollars. There is no way that any such development costs, test data and review thereof has been remotely similar to that of any such monitor product.

    I am still not sure why you're talking about pesticides.

    Additionally, recommendation of industry leading products which are widely used by the majority of pros here in the US is not remotely similar to the recommendation of a monitor device that has yet to attain broad scale acceptance by the professional industry here in the US.

    That a product is not widely used by pros in the US market does not mean it doesn't work. This is an international site.

    Lets all know what we're talking about in a reasonably factual fashion prior to depressing the send post button.

    Everything I said was factual, as far as I can see.

    My point was not to start a disagreement with you, but to try and help KQ see another point of view. You don't have to agree with me, but I have a right to respond to comments made about me and to me above.

  61. P Bello

    oldtimer
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 4,863

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 10:11:17
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Above is posted:
    "Everything I said was factual, as far as I can see."

    OK but, to be fair, I think you need to look further and not “cherry pick” your facts as further discussed below.

    Additionally, while some may think this is making a mountain out of a mole hill because you were just making an exemplary comparison. The truth is that this comparison is apples and oranges that I feel strongly about because it is an unfair and unreasonable comparison.

    You've sighted my product recommendations as being akin to those of the use of monitors. They are not. The following points are offered in this regard:

    Regarding pesticide products:
    Recommendations of any such products are tested, market leaders, EPA registered and backed by science. Monitor devices are not highly tested or subject to efficacy data by third party entities such as the EPA product registration process.

    Non-pesticide products:
    Firstly, please review the number of posts where I've made such recommendations for any such products I'm associated with. Undoubtedly you will find that the incidence of any such recommendations is rare if at all. And, such recommendations are often made in a generic fashion where no specific product name is mentioned. This is done purposefully because I do not want to have to defend such recommendations from controversial attack by the person in question.

    International Forum:
    Sure, folks beyond our US borders may participate here but we needn't turn a blind eye nor remain naïve to the nuances and implications of the various parameters which become significant factors when posting responses to Forum questions. It is irrefutable that significant parameters are different here in the US than they are elsewhere. Such factors include: the products available, the formulations, the regulations, the equipment, the professional training, the professional knowledge base, the life styles of the consumers being served, the construction of the structures being serviced, the civil codes and other such factors which all play a role in how professional pest management work is being done from location to location.

    Note that even here in North America there are significant differences between the US and Canada despite the close proximity of these neighboring countries. Bed bug pros in Canada do not share the vast product choice opportunities as their counterparts here in the US. Is this a considerable factor? You bet it is.

    Fundamental Differences:
    The fundamental difference and overall flaw in your assertions above is that this person actually sells the product he recommends in his numerous posts whereas, I do not.

    In fact, please feel free to search all of my approximately 4,300+ posts to see how many times I've even mentioned my own books. Then, compare that number to the number of times that this person has recommended the purchase and use of the monitor device that he sells in his approximately 10,000+ posts. Undoubtedly you will find that this person’s sales pitch posts far and away outnumber mine many fold.

    The Facts:
    Ultimately, the most applicable fact here is that the Forum has lost the participation of a number of professionals over the past months and years. There are also a number of pros who monitor the Forum yet choose not to comment. Those who have been active here for any length of time know this is so and everyone knows why.

    Whether you agree or not, others view this as continued excusing, defending or siding with this individual.

    It's your Forum, it's your problem and, just like bed bugs unfortunately, the problem persists.

    Regretfully, pjb

  62. btaggart

    junior member
    Joined: Apr '09
    Posts: 99

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 10:26:52
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Nobugs,

    Here is the issue very simply. You have one person who is chasing away every other professional on this site or at the very least minimizing their usage through constant arguing. you stated above "However, as I have repeatedly said, I am not going to ban another pro simply because you don't like them or their methods." It has absolutely nothing to do with disagreeing on methods. There are times I will disagree with john and he will disagree with me however we remain civil. Me and john have 2 completely different methods of treating for bed bugs but never once have I argued to the point that David has. As far as Paul is concerned I don't use al the products he recommends. Its not to say they don't work its just a different choice of products. Again when a product I don't use is mentioned I don't fly off the handle with long posts about how that's the wrong product. you have banned other salesman from this site for selling natural bed bug products because there was no proof it works and it was considered spam. Please explain the difference to me and others because honestly we just see it. When asked to produce independent verifiable data on his monitor its never produced. Saying someone in the industry tested it but wants to remain nameless is not verifiable.

  63. NY Bug Man

    member
    Joined: Nov '12
    Posts: 294

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 15:21:41
    #



    Login to Send PM

    Can we repost this with just the facts? I am interested in this case but its frustrating to read the facts and i give up half way down.
    KQ maybe another post (part 2) ? If any updates please start another thread

  64. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 17:01:11
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I am not going to ban David at this time. However, I can make the rules (addressing promotion and addressing arguing) more explicit and enforce them more fully. I am going to discuss possibilities with some other longtime users and you should be hearing more about this very soon.

    I know a few of you want a ban but it is not warranted at this time. If I have been overly lenient with the forum rules (and in some cases, the rules did not fully address situations like arguing), that's my own fault and I can address this. If the problems persist after the rules are more explicit, that's another matter.

    If the problem truly is the arguing and the promotion of a product, then this can be better managed and banning should not be necessary.

    That said, it goes both ways. For example, you can't make sarcastic attacks on David's product as several pros have done above. And as I noted, John, you want people to stay on topic but you need to do that yourself too.

  65. Nobugsonme

    your host
    Joined: Mar '07
    Posts: 22,265

    offline

    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Dec 11 2014 23:10:29
    #



    Login to Send PM

    I am closing this thread. KQ, please start a new thread to repost your video or discuss your updates as others have suggested above.


RSS feed for this topic


Topic Closed

This topic has been closed to new replies.

297,399 posts in 50,188 topics over 156 months by 21,933 of 22,434 members. Latest: Kimmmie46, esedndwi, Help123