Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Detection / Identification of bed bugs
What information can you expect from a bed bug dog?
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nervousaboutbedbugs
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Aug 20 2009 21:46:40
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Here we go again... I was just reading a thread called 'Can bed bug dogs be wrong', but it got so heated I didn't want to start it up again.
Anyway, I've been posting enough recently that most of you probably know I was scheduled for Vikane but postponed it because we haven't actually seen any bugs. We were lucky enough to have Killer Queen inspect our house and he didn't find anything after almost 2 hours. Of course, being a Mom of very young girls that are being bitten, I can't stop worrying so I've continued looking, still not finding anything.
So, here's my actual question..... I began to worry about BBs about 2 months ago now. Several weeks ago I brought in a NESDCA certified team. That 2 dog team both confirmed bugs in my bed, my daughter's bed, a chair in her room. The dogs were given treats immediately after alerting to bugs, and the handler did not confirm.
We followed their advice and encased our mattress, threw out the crib mattress and the chair (both destroyed). I called them after Killer Queen's visit to complain that they had not done any visual inspection, and the owner apologized (he was not at our home that first visit) and agreed to search again. They came in several days ago and again found BBs in our mattress. My daughter's room was called 'clear'. We have 2 sitting rooms and my daughter had been getting bites on our 'red couch'. Nothing was mentioned about bugs being found there (I was asked to remain outside to avoid exciting the dog). When I asked that it be checked, still nothing was found. Finally, after removing the cushions and turning it on its side, the dog alerted. The handler did look, but didn't see anything.
In the meantime, we had already arranged a visit with another dog team (yes, I know I sound crazy, but you can probably all sympathize). This team, one dog, trained with David Latimer. Although this dog is trained with food, no food rewards were given during my inspection. The results... one day later: our room is clear, my daughter's crib was alerted to, a basket of books in my daughter's room was alerted to, the red couch is clear, the floorboards in my dining room are alerted to strongly (big cracks, old house). I asked again about the couches.... again the handler removed the cushions and turned them on their sides. While this time the red couch was clear, the couch in our other living room was alerted to.
I know there are strong feelings on dogs and that they can give different results. I'm not writing about these inspections to condemn or to defend dog inspections, but more because I was really surprised by the differences in findings. In both cases, the dogs seemed well handled. The reactions of the first group (scratching) seemed more clear than the reactions of the second (sitting, standing still). Neither time was anything confirmed. Both teams removed the cushions from the couches - I thought dogs could smell several feet, so why is this necessary? I also know that dogs are only localizing the infestation, not always pinpointing, but still I'm surprised that they didn't even agree on a single infested room.
I'm sitting on my couch now, with interceptors, hoping that we do not have BBs. We've not had them in the past, so the dogs shouldn't be smelling treated bugs. What are the odds of 2 teams of dogs being wrong? What are the odds of 2 teams of dogs not agreeing on a single location, only 1 day apart?
Any opinions on just what kind of information you should be able to expect from a BB dog? I'm not sure what to do next, besides sit and wait while trying to determine just what is biting my daughters. Is it BBs, mites, fleas? Do I try yet another team? Do I give it some more time so that if there is an early infestation, it has time to build up and might more likely be found in inspection? I'm feeling a bit demoralized at this point....
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BugzBGone
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Aug 21 2009 12:07:36
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BUMP
This sure does sound confusing. Doug Summers - Can you help?
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Aug 21 2009 12:41:33
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I must preface this by saying that I have seen a dog alert to a chair and then have the chair inspected and sure enough several bed bugs were found. I have also heard of several similar
reliable reports. On the other hand I have dealt with several cases in which dogs alerted and no BBs were ever found and no one was bitten. The concept of K9s is great, in that in a large area they could narrow down the search such as in an office or going through hotel rooms. Unfortunately I feel that somewhere along the way dogs became omnipotent and the handlers decided to not inspect further and rely solely on the dog. I know the term false positive is tossed around but I prefer to think of it more in terms off "the dog is wrong". In order to reduce these instances I suggest teams be required to produce some physical evidence that bed bugs are present. Of course if you are hiring the dog this should be made clear prior to the inspection. Realize of course it may cost a bit more but the results are conclusive. Again I think dogs can be a valuable tool, we just have to remain the master and use them wisely. -
nervousaboutbedbugs
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Aug 21 2009 16:28:57
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I called most every K9 inspection company in the area and none would agree to an inspection. I wonder if this is common, or if it's because I'm in an area that hasn't been hard hit by bed bugs yet. My original team, which did agree to come back and inspect, spent less than 5 minutes total doing the inspection. After watching Killer Queen work, I was disappointed.
I'm almost certain that we have mouse/rat mites. We had mice in the house last winter, we'd especially hear them under the stove. Now any time I stand near the stove I feel bites, but can't see anything.
Our plan had been to treat for mites while continuing to monitor for bedbugs. If anything showed up, we would then do the Vikane. But, the fumigator called today and explained that our window of opportunity is closing because Vikane needs to be done before night temps can dip below 50. Around here, that can easily happen in September.
Now we're unsure of what to do. Our daughter's bites are scarring and infecting and while we don't mind waiting a month or so while monitoring for the bugs, we don't want to wait until next summer if we find them. Our 3rd baby is due in October, so we don't want to have months of chemical treatments in our future.
To date, we've seen the following signs of bedbugs:
1. Two positive K9 inspections.
2. Rows of bites on my daughter, occurring at night.
3. Blood smears on the sheets.
4. Tiny blood spots on the sheets.Ultimately we're just going to have to decide. But, we'd sure love input from anyone else.
Does anyone think the 2 dog teams could have been completely wrong?
The positive K9 hits, the other signs... how telling is that?
Do mite bites occur in clusters and rows like bb bites? -
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Aug 21 2009 22:45:36
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nervousaboutbedbugs,
I have seen plenty of my new term ;) "the dog is wrong". There are people from this site that I have worked for with 2 different K9 inspections .. Both wrong with positives. I get more calls then I care to talk about from people each day who tell me they had an inspection but nothing was found when the dog hit on an area.
I'm telling you .... I have not yet done an inspection and missed! Not bragging, just stating the facts. I'm telling you ... You may not read about all the "the dog is wrong" inspections I do because many of my clients now find me from word of mouth or researching the net. They don't come here and post reviews of my work like in the past. But I see this each and every day (maybe 3 to 5 a week).
No dog is going to smell something so hidden that I can't find it. Certified or not, the dogs were wrong. This time and more than 60% of the time I'm called in for an inspection after a K9 hit, is the dog wrong. To date ... I have not had a single client call and tell me I was wrong.. and missed it. Not one!!!
I'm telling you .. you got the best inspection you could possible get this side of the equator.
The dogs have brought you into more rooms then Carter has pills …. That alone should tell you something is flawed in their inspection. Each time that dog was rewarded food for the “hit” was a mistake from that handler. And it’s these handlers that will be out of work … If I talk to the press as I am thinking about doing. From the K9 training school … the numbers on the dogs are great .. in the hands of people who worked at Friendly’s serving ice cream last week … maybe 30% , just as us humans are rated for visual inspection. (A rating system I refuse to fall into)
The good thing is .. I eat whether I find bugs or not. And I’m not barking mad =) so relax with the idea you may still have bed bugs, you don’t, and trust what I'm telling you.
PS. I counted 5 mosquito bites on me when I drove off. Just from standing in your driveway for 7 minutes.
Best, KQ
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Winston, I like "the dog is wrong" as a substitute for "false positive." Of course, dogs can be wrong sometimes and right others. Still, let's call it like it is.
The dog may actually be right, but the handlers need to make a great effort to search and find evidence.
KillerQueen -- you mean you get the Milanos whether or not you find bed bugs?
I've heard everything now.
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paulaw0919
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Posted 3 months ago
Sat Aug 22 2009 12:54:00
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In the past after our vikane fumigation almost 2 yrs ago, we had many k9 inspections to try and ensure the bugs were gone. I felt at the time that if I had gotten visits done quarterly it would help me get back to living comfortably again. I can tell you even k9's trained and certified from the best of the best can be dead wrong. SOOOO much as to do with the on going training of the handler it's not funny. Finding that k9 team right now (imo) is like finding a needle in a hay stack. True handlers/team is hard to find.
I have had two different k9 teams both hit positive in my home, in numerous locations. I had a two dog team both hit the same location in the house a be wrong. I have had another k9 team come into my home over a month later....(in my mind ot let what ever bugs here grow...) and give me an all clear. I then waited again about a month and still got an all clear. This was all after vikane fumigation on our home. There is no way there were bed bugs in the house when those dogs had positive hits. One of the 2 dog team even hit the same location!! But as hard as it was, I did nothing for over a month and then hired the one company I trusted. After a detailed k9 and visual inspection...all was clear, no hits...AFTER A MONTH.I'm sure that if I were to get three different k9 inspections in here today I would get three different results. Who is one to believe? Thus the reason to do very deep homework before hiring, and don't believe anything until evidence is in hand. (based on my experience)
In my experience, yes the dogs are a useful 'tool' but not the answer. The one who "paid" was the consumer (me) to learn this. Personally imo, the one's that should be doing inspections are the trainers themselves and not have everything go to "market" persay.
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loubugs
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Posted 3 months ago
Sun Aug 23 2009 10:29:24
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A dog is only as good as its handler has trained or retrained it. Of course, this is predicated on the trainer and how good the initial training has been. There is supposed to be visual verification. The handler cannot simply state that here are the bed bugs, the dog is correct, so give me my money and leave. They also shouldn't say that they have no time to visually verify. I wouldn't pay that company for a bed bug inspection. The dog is a tool and is supposed to alert the handler or PMP where to look rather than having that person examine the whole house. A company that uses 1 dog to verify when the other alerts is also not visually verifying, but using another dog. If both dogs have been trained and retrained, the same error can be trained into both dogs by the same trainer/handler. Recertification of the dog is needed and should be brought back to the original training facility over the year or whatever that facility suggests. The handler might be retraining the dog and not realizing that he or she is training them on other insects that happen to be in the home or office along with bed bugs that are placed in hides.
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Aug 27 2009 16:52:07
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Nobugsonme - 5 days ago »
KillerQueen -- you mean you get the Milanos whether or not you find bed bugs?
I've heard everything now.lol .. missed this one ..... The classic Milanos ...YES!!!
I was in Pathmark a few days ago and couldnt find my NY super fudge chunk .. I have some second rate stuff in the freezer now .,.. but the wife has been hunting down the stores for more =)Nobugs you are 2 funny!!
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Smart Canine
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Aug 27 2009 18:49:32
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No one should ever contract services with a bed bug detedction dog sservice unless the service providers agrees to verify alerts with a site specific search. What many of you bed bug detection consumers decribed is malfesasnce and nonfesamce on the part of the K9 detection team. One other point, these k9 teams don't go through rigorous certification process that they have lead you to believe. It is actually a personal evaluation from the dog trainer and or seller of the dog.
The compannies that sell these dogs stand to lose alot of money if they don't approve the dog that they are selling and the purchaser that they are training as capable to do bed bug detection. This is done even if both dog and handler are unfit to provide the service. So, they label it as an entity that is certified. and of course, these k9's and handler are not actually certified as claimed.
Here is one of the definitions of certified. The procedure by which a 3rd party gives written assurance , that a product, process or service conforms to specific requirements. Reference:
www.gdrc.org/wki/cerified_(album) This does not happen with people who sell bed bug dogs or the orginizations that claim to test handlers and bed bug detection dogs. The term certified has been presented to mislead the consumer into thinking that dogs and handler have the same taining and capability as a police detection K9. Nothing is futher from the truth.So, buyers of these services beware.
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newbite
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Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 31 2009 12:34:10
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Hi everyone,
I'm a new member to the forum and originally posted a question under the "Gentrol Effectiveness" forum But now I'm thinking the "dog was wrong" question is were I should start. In May a "reputable" company with a K9 came to my home. The dog alerted to a chair in my room and a bookcase in my daughters room. The men immediately had me bag all the clothes in the dressers in my room but said it was not necessary to empty my daughter's dresser. They sprayed, collected their payment and left me a list of suggested steps to follow. Now after 4 treatments, with me calling them back every time, my contract expired 2 weeks ago. I have never stopped being bitten! They are supposed to be a reputable company with B.B. Dogs and featured on Animal Planet (that may give away who they are) they were nice and did return when called but that was it. I've never seen an adult Bed Bug in my home. I inspected the chair and bookcase they did not, I never found anything. Our mattresses & box springs are encased in vinyl coverings. I've hunted high and low...nothing! I emptied dressers and closets as suggested by the men who came to do the subsequent sprayings. Bagged everything. And I was recently told by the last technician I should be Steri Fabbing every 3 days, that's getting expensive. Then I started reading about Gentrol. Which they did use, I saw the bottles...Gentrol, Suspend SC and Phantom. They originally told me we had a slight infestation, and after that it seemed like a population explosion happened, many bites suffered (by me..only I react or am bitten). All I've ever seen is mite sized ones, literally never bigger than booklice. I tried isolating my bed which they never told me to, nothing on the tape or in the climb-up interceptors. And I'm still being bitten, they are not in the metal frame which I spray with SteriFab every week, no headboard. What do I do now? I gave them a large chunk of change and at this point I'm thinking they only mad matters worse. Can anyone shed some light? " Help...I'm losing my mind! -
I sent you a PM
Can you post a macro photo of the mite sized specimens?
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spideyjg
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Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 31 2009 16:45:30
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DougSummersMS - 23 minutes ago »
I sent you a PM
Can you post a macro photo of the mite sized specimens?Yep put a picture up. If they never found true evidence they do not know what is in your house.
If all you find are "mite sized ones, literally never bigger than booklice" maybe those are what you really have. Mites or Psocids.
Jim
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newbite
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Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 31 2009 22:16:18
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Unfortunately no go on the picture, my camera just isn't capable...or maybe it's just the photographer. Anyway I will be sending what I've managed to find myself off for identification.
Many thanks Doug for your time and invaluable advice. Hopefully this thing will get sorted out soon. -
I now think I should have asked for a visual inspection when I had my K9 bb inspection. I suspected bedbugs when: a) I went to a motel in Niagara Falls and my motel roommate had the typical pattern (3-in-a-row) of marks on several places on her body. b) I myself had mysterious marks on my body, although not in the same pattern as hers.
I found a few fleas in my bed. My cat sleeps on my bed so I de-flead the cat and took steps to rid get rid of them in the house. But after a month, I was still seeing small red marks on my body. So I called in the only company in the Toronto area who do canine bb inspections. To my consternataion, he alerted beside the bed, and beside my futon. No visual inspection was done, and he gave me instructions to self treat. I never saw any other evidence of bb's. But I laundered, dusted, sprayed, bought mattress covers, lived out of plastic bags for months.
When I noticed that most of my marks were where my skin was in close contact with tight clothing (i.e. underwear waistbands and straps) I suspected laundry soap allergies and I was right. I had switched from my regular laundry soap a short time before my bb scare. The small red marks disappeared when I switched to a non-allergenic laundry detergent and and stopped washing my clothes so often!
Did I have bedbugs? I'm not sure, but I will never again take the measures I did until I see an actual live bedbug.
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Bedblogger
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Posted 2 months ago
Wed Sep 2 2009 14:32:33
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I need to comment on this discussion. First off KillerQueen I find it impossible to believe that you have never been wrong on an inspection. I have personally found bedbugs in places that needed a box cutter to open and find eggs or bb.
I also want to note that my canine can detect bb in locations that I have no access to.
I also want to note that while handling the K-9 I do not do physical inspections, I send someone else to do that. Once my dog is on task I am moving with the dog and I do not have the time to do a search. A search that could take 3 hours. When a K-9 is working, it's best to keep it working.
I also would like to say that a third party certified my dog, not my trainer or the person I bought him from. I also witnessed one person fail the test and was not certified. The dogs are trained to recognize the scent of a bb and to alert to that scent. Once you leave the training facility it's up to the handler to keep the dog on task. A bad handler can ruin a dog in short order. It's also important to note that the dog and handler can become highly skilled after years of training and practice. A green dog and a green handler is just that. Experience makes the differnece in both cases.
I have been in the pest control business 35 years and some of the information I read here is good and some is not so good.
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 1:11:35
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Bedblogger - 10 hours ago »
I need to comment on this discussion. First off KillerQueen I find it impossible to believe that you have never been wrong on an inspection.I'm glad you think that ... you as well as just about every company I follow.... do it wrong. So as you sweep a room ... the dog alerts and you feed it without confirmation right? You said that. Then you send in another guy to confirm? To late don't you think?
Look the fact is ... the dogs are shit because of poor handler practices. It’s getting sickening day in and day out (2 -5 wrong K9's a week I follow for inspection) .... The dogs are cross training to other insects and while you walk away and leave others to find what you should be finding before feeding your dog.... Well, you are doing it wrong as well.
Explain why today... I'm begged to go and do an inspection for a couple that was forced to do a K9 inspection by their management. Here is the short of it. 1 or 2 confirmed cases of bed bugs in the building. The management takes the approach to inspect all or most of the apartments in the building. And the company that comes in (The one I know that the dogs just sit down whenever they see a bed, a hall closet, or a suitcase) and this K9 hits in 17 ... yes, 17 apartments. They are sent a prep sheet, and a bill to send payment for 2,000 for a bed bug treatment in their apartment. Mind you they have not seen a bug and don’t have any bites. But they know not all react to bites. 2,000 x 17 = A lot more money to advertise shit services.
What does management do next? Since many people don’t think they have a problem? Get another "reputable" company in with a dog not worth the flea collar... and guess what.... same old story. Fast forward to today.... I meet the people... they have 0 bites (wife reacts terribly to any insect bite), 0 signs of bed bugs, and no problem in their home that they can see. Just a bank account that is about to be 2,000 less because management is trying to strong arm them into getting this done.
After inspecting for 1 1/2 hr. There is nothing there. Rewind to the inspection before that, in another building a lady was bit maybe 2 times over the course of say 10 days ... well guess what ... Fecal evidence. What do ya know ... EVIDENCE!
Look... you guys make big investments for your dogs..... But the fact is.... again and again ... A tool is all it is.... you still need human confirmation. Not some other guy that is just going to feed your investment just because he sat down. I don’t own a dog because I’m smart enough to know that if my dog “hits” on the bed I still need to spend a half hr inspecting it. By that time even if my dog is right … it has no idea why I just gave it some food a half hr later.
I don't care if you’re in business 35 years.... You have been doing bed bugs for as long as everyone else has. I opened my business 1 year ago ... and look at my reputation! It's spotless! I have people asking to fly me all across the county to treat, even inspect their home, why? Because I can find evidence if people have bugs. That’s what I’m there for. And I can walk away with confidence when I tell a person you don't have bed bugs. I do it all the time and not once has my phone rang telling me I was wrong! You don't want to know the numbers of "false" positives I see.... The press could have a field day with me if I sang about how awful a K9 inspection can be. But, these comments are what fuel me to be the best …. So keep them coming.
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DeathToAllBBs
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 7:34:01
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I was looking into local dog inspections and the one in my area has a news clip of him working with his dog. In the news clip, the dog locates the BBs, uses his paw to identify where he smelled them, then the handler (his owner) pulls out the container that he has them stored in to verify it. I'm guessing or hoping that he would investigate to see if they are actually present in the location the dog hit on during an actual inspection, but from what I read in a review, the customer had to look and yes they found the bugs, but they did it after the dog identified the location.
In the video, the owner/handler didn't give treats. Don't know if he does in real life.
It's all just so disheartening. Dogs could be an exceptional tool if they weren't getting screwed up along the way and/or if they were trained correctly.
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 11:21:25
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WOW! Lets not get to growling. There is a need for bed bug K9s and certainly they have abilities unmatched by most humans in scent detection. Perhaps the issue is not as much with the dogs
but rather the handlers. Anyway the point I want to make is that people need to verify bed bugs
before throwing things out, paying for treatment, bagging their possessions or reorganizing their life. Obviously a point well made that the handler while doing an inspection must keep the dog
going and on task, but afterward someone needs to find a bug! The problems stem when
people spell dog in reverse and take it's indication alone as the final word.
Arrf! -
Amen
K9 alerts must be confirmed with physical evidence.
Unconfirmed alerts can create a dilemma for the consumer & professionals alike.
Inaccessible areas can pose a challenge for any bed bug inspector.
When the K9 evidence cannot be confirmed... the PCO should take the same action that would be taken if no K9 was present.
Visual confirmation is a requirement listed on most pesticide labels & is also required by statute in many states.
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Winston
I have a dyslexic K9 that thinks he is a deity
It says so right on his bowl
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spideyjg
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 14:45:44
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Winston O. Buggy - 3 hours ago »
Anyway the point I want to make is that people need to verify bed bugs
before throwing things out, paying for treatment, bagging their possessions or reorganizing their life. Obviously a point well made that the handler while doing an inspection must keep the dog
going and on task, but afterward someone needs to find a bug!That is the bottom line and while just about everyone agrees about it, it doesn't appear that is happening out there in the real world.
IMHO part of the team certification would be a test of the handlers ability to find evidence without a dog. If the dog alerts on a chair the handler better be able to locate something.
A BB diagnosis can throw folks into a whirlwind of anxiety and that diagnosis better be based on hard evidence. I remember Gary use to say he wanted a PCO on hand as ran through a dwelling. After the dog was done he put the dog away in the truck and came back to help the PCO search the locations. Seems the optimal method to me. Find them and start F'ing them up.
Bear in mind I am no dog handler, PCO or any pest professional just a BB war veteran.
Question for those keeping the dog on task, do you mark the location for inspection afterwards?
Jim
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I use small stickers to mark the locations and I spend up to 90 seconds looking for evidence before I move on... I return while the dog is resting to search areas that were not confirmed yet.
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nervousaboutbedbugs
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 15:30:55
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I've learned an awful lot about K9 inspections recently, and I agree with all that is said above. Unfortunately, the dogs are sold to consumers as infallible. When I discussed visual inspection with two different PCOs they BOTH told me that the dog is as good of evidence as I'm going to find. They pointed me to studies posted online that boast the accuracy of the dogs. In fact, while there are 4 dog teams willing to inspect my home in Connecticut, not a single one does visual inspections. The handler/PCO teams near here that are willing to do visual inspections are all out of New York/New Jersey and need to charge a huge amount of money to spend the day in Connecticut (half the cost of a thermal treatment).
It's been weeks (maybe longer) since 2 dog teams alerted in my home and we still find no evidence. Killer Queen has inspected our home and told us that we do NOT have BBs. We do have confirmation of fungal mites, which according to the entomologist who identified them, can cause contact dermatitis similar to BB bites. Even still, we're bagging our clothes and packtiting our daughters' lunch boxes for fear that they might be lurking.
Certainly the dogs can (and should) be of tremendous worth. I may eventually discover that there are bedbugs in my home and the dogs were correct. But, if it turns out that I don't, then I will have wasted extraordinary amounts of time and money responding to a crisis that wasn't. If that's the case, I will certainly notify the dog teams that came to my house so that they can be aware that the dogs are responding to something else in the environment (mites?).
I don't know how many 'the dog was wrong' situations there really are out there. If they happen as often as they seem to according to this forum, then this is an industry that should be regulated to protect consumers who are misled into thinking that the dogs are always correct and that visual confirmation is not necessary if a dog has alerted.
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Posted 2 months ago
Thu Sep 3 2009 17:28:40
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What those studies show is that canines have the ability to be ??% accurate. By claiming those accuracy numbers as ones own and not doing an visual inspection to prove it is well..questionable. One of the ways I judge my teams accuracy is by finding the evidence after an alert. I do the visual inspection. for my customers so they have the required visual identification to treat and I do the visual to continually check the teams accuracy.
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newbite
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Posted 1 month ago
Wed Sep 23 2009 9:30:31
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Hello again everyone. I had originally posted to this forum on 8/31/09, I thought I'd follow up. Since then I did send the samples of things I collected, since the Canine came in & treatments, to be identified. To recap, no PCO inspection was ever done to confirm the dogs positive response and in 4 treatments they never found anything. Now the findings...none of the samples were Bed Bugs. One that really had me going turned out to be of the Scale family, most of the rest were book louse. The book louse were primarily found on the floor molding right behind my bed (by me) and removed with tape. They looked like grains of pepper. The really scary part is that the last guy who came into spray was supposedly the "go to guy" in the company, for stubborn bed bug situations. To his credit he new a lot more than anyone else they had sent. He really hates them, he said, and goes so far as to carry samples in a jar to educate clients, really nice guy (I wouldn't even do that!). But upon being shown the tape he said "yes, definitely Bed Bugs" and as a hint to me he said..."grains of pepper and dirt don't move." I realize it could be an easy mistake, they look alike, right? I mean what's he suppose to think when his boss and a dog already confirmed I had Bed Bugs? Or do I? The mysterious bites continue...
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Bedblogger
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Posted 1 month ago
Mon Sep 28 2009 6:23:52
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I am not going to say dogs are never wrong, but I train at least 5 times a day 7 days a week with my dog. I know her abilities and limitations. I think KillerQ assumes that K-9s only work for food and that is not my case. My dog alerts because she is trained to alert. I do blind hides, which some are extremely difficult to find. I use a second person, that wears a glove to place blind hides. These are fresh hides, which are not left to cook. This makes it more difficult for the k-9.
Here's my point, the dog pinpoints the areas my tech's need to inspect. I recently found bb's in an electric scooter for a disabled person. The other day the K-9 sniffed in a metal vent hole in a mattress. I would like to KillerQueen find bb's there. No fecal spots on the mattress or box spring. Recent alert on a file cabinet, bb's were in the paper files. Recent alert on a purse.
The K-9 alerted to a couch, my tech took way over an hour to find physical evidence on just the couch. That would of been an easy one to miss. But the K-9 could detect the presence of bedbugs in seconds.
Recently the dog alerted to the arm of a couch, bb's were inside the cardboard under the foam rubber. Exactly how do you inspect the inside of a couch KillerQueen?
When ever a customer wants to throw out furniture, we cut it open for inspection. It's amazing to find how bb's dig in. Making a physical inspection impossible at times.
KQ also you assumed that sending in a tech after a K-9 inspection is to late, I don't think so. I have a tech follow all my positive alerts.
KQ you also assumed that with the relative new to arrive bb's to the pest control industry that no one has long term experience. I have been dealing with bb's for years. I have 8 technicians that are dedicated to only bedbug inspection and control and I do the K-9 inspections. So I have 8 times the experience and 8 times the number of treatments your capable of doing. If the year continues like it has been I will probably do over 600 bedbug treatments this year.
Any tech can make a mistake, a dog is not perfect, vikane can fail, and thermal remediation isn't perfect. That's what makes bedbugs a complex problem. I decide what is the best control method for each customer. Some get heat treated and some don't. Depends on many factors.
What I see on the forums is everyone thinks there the best. Each dog trainer thinks there the best. Every tech thinks there the best. Every person without a dog is better than the dog. Tech's with K-9's think there the best.
There all tools and tools in the right hands are better than the same tools in the wrong hands. I have clients ask me how accurate are K-9's? There are just too many variables. But from my experience they are a very valuable tool. Doing apartment searches I can pinpoint activity. I can inspect surrounding apartments. I can heat an apartment and use the K-9 the next day to make sure we achieved eradication.
On the business end, are customers always willing to pay for a quality job? Can they afford a quality job? Some are some are not, how often do I hear how much. You can't do 3 hour inspections for free. You cannot do a high quality job in 20 minuets. I will not do a phone estimate. I want to see the building, I want to know the extent of the infestation and how difficult it will be to treat.
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eroberts_1
newbite
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 6
Posted 1 month ago
Fri Oct 2 2009 9:59:43
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Wow, this is a little heated. I was just wondering about the accuracy of dogs from the experts - let's assume a good and reputable dog - is it more likely to make false negative or false positive hits? I just had a dog in yesterday and they didn't hit on anything. Can I assume all is clear? I have no physical evidence of bugs such as fecal or blood stains. I had a few bites about 10 days ago, cleaned everything, and threw out the mattress/box spring the very next morning. Had Terminix come in a day later to inspect and they didn't find anything, but left some traps. Didn't catch anything and no bites since. Handler said my house is "near control conditions" and therefore the dog would perform at 100%. Thoughts on this?? I would love to think I'm clear but I'm still not feeling completely confident. Thanks!
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nomentanus
newbite
Joined: Oct '09
Posts: 1
Posted 1 month ago
Fri Oct 2 2009 15:44:33
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Dogs noses can bring air in continuously, without pausing for breath; and they have a large part of their brain devoted to scent. So they are astonishingly sensitive to odors - if your neighbor visited someone with bed bugs and later sat on your couch with the same clothes, the dog may well smell that on the couch, since bedbugs can be quite pungent. It's not a small odor, and it travels well through the air.
The dog may be right about smelling bedbugs even if you don't have them.
A false negative is also possible, I would think much but less likely. A single bedbug that's just been hanging on without a meal for a year won't smell much, but can restart an infestation.
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Kill bed bugs
newbite
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 11
Posted 1 month ago
Sat Oct 3 2009 14:41:05
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nomentanus, your claim is very interesting.
If I read you correctly, you believe that the bb dogs will alert on the area where bed bugs were previously.
On what basis do you make the claim?
Have you conducted research yourself?
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Adele
senior member
Joined: May '08
Posts: 556
Posted 1 month ago
Sat Oct 3 2009 15:13:44
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Bedblogger - can you disclose the firm you represent?
you raise some very interesting and valid points - there is no way to do a physical inspection INSIDE a sofa. And there may or may not be visable evidence on the outside of the sofa to indicate the presence of bugs there. regardless I also believe they can be buried and hidden in places where evidence would be hard to see
For example I had bedbugs for a very prolonged period of time after I moved into my previous apartment after vikane fumigation failed. I was treated for nearly a year in that apartment by a PCO who did repeated physical inspections that he claims are 100% accurate he was never able to find bedbugs
I moved from that apartment to my current apartment in this past June - and guess what?
when I was packing up I saw a 1" dark band of stains under ALL of the outlet plates in that apartment. They were coming from the walls!!! Very easy to miss that evidence unless you are specifically looking for it
He apparently was not looking for that evidence and did not look at the outlets and that's why he could not find evidence of them. Which also explains why the visual inspection failed to find the source of the problem and why I was never able to get rid of them in that apartment
When I told the PCO about my finding - he basically dismissed it like I imagined the whole thing and I was nuts.
Regardless- I do not have them now since I moved and my point is that visual inspections CAN be prone to failure and people that claim to be 100% accurate only do so because they want to believe that is the case.and they aren't interested in hearing anything to the contrary. It is not the case
visual inspections are prone to failure just like K9 inspections - probably even more so. I never had a k9 in that other apartment and if I did the dog probaby would have found the cause right away
visual inspections are NOT 100% accurate and I know because I am living proof
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