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What about Beauvaria bassiana ?

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  1. nervousbreakdown

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sun Dec 23 2012 18:55:42
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    As seen on Wikipedia concerning the bed bugs :

    "Preliminary research has shown that the fungus Beauveria bassiana is, after five days, highly (~100%) effective in killing bed bugs previously exposed for one hour to substrate sprayed with fungus spores. Those surviving more than five days were quickly killed by simple re-exposure. Furthermore, those individuals exposed to the fungus transported the spores back to their harborages before death, thereby infecting previously unexposed individuals and causing their deaths as well" ( http://www.thethomaslab.net/uploads/Barbarin2012.pdf )

    Why does nobody talk about that ? It seems that Beauvaria bassiana can be bought as a powder. Did anyone ever tried or has information about that kind of treatment ? I have made a few research and couldn't find a lot of informations...

  2. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sun Dec 23 2012 20:53:24
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    Here is a link to an extended discussion on the forum
    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/looks-like-im-going-to-be-the-first-field-trial-of-the-beauveria-bassiana-fungus

    The study that you linked is the first and only published study to date.

    This product is not EPA approved for indoor use for bed bug eradication... It will be some time before the required human safety & efficacy studies are completed for the required labeling and EPA approval.

    Introducing viable fungal sores into your home for this purpose has important human health implications and I am highly skeptical that it will be approved in the near future given that only a single preliminary study has been published.

    Vikane gas fumigation is considered 99.7% effective and a properly performed heat treatment is also considered highly effective. These treatment are currently available on the market from licensed and insured providers.

    I would advise caution to anyone that is considering turning their home into an uncontrolled experiment and their family into test subjects until the research and potential delivery systems can be fully investigated and approved.

  3. po2

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sun Dec 23 2012 21:30:39
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    Here's an experiment I would propose to anyone who is willing to try this out: Find and isolate one or more of these bugs in your home, expose them to the beuveria, then release them back into the wild allowing them to spread in their secret nesting grounds. This seems a much safer method than spraying the substance all over your home.

  4. endless_nightmare

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Mon Dec 24 2012 0:11:29
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    po2

    you may have something there, it's like a controlled environment, you could contains the spores in a small type of flat jar that they use in labs, the other thread about this product sort of degenerated but I was extremely curious about this product

    I'd wait until you got 3 or 4 big adults, put them in there for a little while then release them

    I'm surprised no one has tried that

    Andrea
    not a PCO
    Spinal Cord Injury Advocacy/Volunteer
  5. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Mon Dec 24 2012 0:35:56
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    endless and po2,

    This is not a "product" which is approved for use on bed bugs. It has not been tested outside of a lab setting, to our knowledge, so we don't know if it would work well and be safe for users, and if it would, we don't know the best method of delivery. The first field tests should be controlled, by researchers, and shouldn't consist of guesswork.

    If this is to be a viable treatment plan, it first needs to be determined how to use it safely in people's homes. That hasn't happened yet.

    I would strongly urge people not to use themselves as guinea pigs. Some will no doubt forge ahead anyway, but I would politely you not to suggest others experiment with this method which has not been field tested.

    That's not to say it won't soon be field tested and proven to be useful for certain controlled applications, but it generally is not a good idea to experiment with substances which may have unintended side effects (which may be difficult to anticipate or control).

    I would encourage others to read the other thread on this topic, which Doug mentioned above.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  6. nervousbreakdown

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Mon Dec 24 2012 4:47:14
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    Oh, I'm sorry I haven't seen the other post even if I try to read them all not to be redundant !

    I try to be interested in each treatment but even if it seems magic or something, it can't be used indoor indeed. Here in France, the product is sold to kill bugs on palm trees.

    And to answer DougSummerMS, heat treatment and Vikane are unfortunatly not used in France, that's why I try to find alternative solutions (despite the use of dichlorvos by the PCO that is not really effective in my home !)

  7. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Mon Dec 24 2012 12:36:30
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    nervousbreakdown,

    No need to apologize!

    I understand your situation, but I would not experiment with something like this at this time, until we know more about how it would work indoors.

    Pesticides can be very effective. Can you tell us more about your situation? What did the PCO use and how did he use it? Dichorvos (DDVP) is a gas, so I am curious as to how he treated your home. Did you evacuate and for how long?

  8. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Dec 24 2012 21:34:03
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    nervousbreakdown - 16 hours ago  » 
    And to answer DougSummerMS, heat treatment and Vikane are unfortunatly not used in France, that's why I try to find alternative solutions (despite the use of dichlorvos by the PCO that is not really effective in my home !)

    Hey nervousbreakdown,

    According to this ("Results of Review of Pesticides Containing Dichlorvos"), dichlorvos is no longer allowed for sale in the EU.

    Perhaps this treatment was before the cutoff or perhaps they were allowed to use it if they already had it, I don't know. One of the European experts here might be able to enlighten us on that.

    EU Review

    Dichlorvos has been reviewed under the EU Biocidal Products Directive (BPD) and a decision link to external website has been published by the EU Commission not to included dichlorvos in Annex I/IA of the BPD (approved list of active substances for use in biocidal products).

    Insecticide products containing dichlorvos shall no longer be placed on the market with effect from 1 November 2012.

  9. DougSummersMS

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Tue Dec 25 2012 1:40:21
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    We trained some BedBugDogs for France... I was surprised at the restricted list of products that were available for bed bug treatment.

    David or EffeCi may be able to advise you about effective options that are available in EU countries.

  10. BBF

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Tue Dec 25 2012 4:14:05
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    OK guys I know what I will do.

    I'm ordering some Mycotrol (B007IVX2JU). I've got a bunch of captured adults saved for my research purposes so I'll expose a few to the product in a my containment jar and will see what happens in 5 days. They will be completely isolated, airtight, so no danger to me or anyone else.

  11. bait

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Tue Dec 25 2012 20:17:14
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    nervousbreakdown,
    Not to take away from anything Doug said, I highly recommend you contact Pascal Delaunay.

    "Dr. Pascal Delaunay is a medical biologist specialized in Parasitology, Mycology and Entomology. In the Laboratory of Nice University Hospital, he has experience with all aspects applied to Public Health. He is endeavouring to develop the field of medical and environmental entomology for physicians, patients and pest managers."

    The contact is listed as: richard@bedbugfoundation.org (Richard Naylor?) I've been in contact with Dr. Delaunay directly through his e-mail at the lab, but I don't wish to restate that address here. I hope you get to communicate with him. He's young and open to ideas.
    Bait

  12. nervousbreakdown

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Thu Dec 27 2012 7:33:31
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    @Nobugsonme : oh well, that is weird ! My appartement was treated with dichlorvos 2/3 weeks ago ! And actually, it was not a gas I think but a residual spray (I was not allowed to stay in my appartement while they were spraying - an actually, they stayed... ONE minutes). The PCO was an "official" one, I mean mandated by the city hall of Paris. And trust me, not sure he knew what he was talking about. I first ask him "do you think that BB could travel in the wall to join my neigbours' appartements ?" He said : "IMPOSSIBLE". Or "do you think that the BB could crawl to my bathroom" (I live in 16 feet squares, the bathroom is 3m from the former bed). He answered "IMPOSSIBLE". Ahah, I found 2 in my bathroom and nymphes at the front door etc. Well, just to say that even "official" PCO doesn't KNOW a thing about BB in here.
    He's supposed to come back soon, I'll ask him about the forbidden use of dichlorvos or what they REALLY used (he told me dichlorvos but maybe made a mistake?)
    The smell remained almost unbearable during 4 days, it was like my lung were burning from the inside even with hours of (very) fresh air.
    Since the treatment, I haven't slept once in my home but spent every afternoon to work in. I found a few dead adults BB scattered in the room. I spend A LOT of time to inspect each object and pack them in plastic boxes (moving in 2/3 months!).

    @ DougSummerMS : oh, sounds intersting. There's actually ONE society of dogs that, I think, are trained. This is it : http://www.dogscan.fr/ . But thought it was another swindle (I'm really paranoid) or something like that. Have you worked with french BBdogs compagny ? Do you have any name to recommand ?

    @ Bait : I've heard of him indeed. I read an article about him collecting BB. I mean, he wished infected people to send him some BB. Do you think you could give me his personnal email via PM ? Or maybe I should try to contact him via the email of Richard ?

    Well, thanks everyone for your helpful answer, always good to have a little of support !

  13. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Thu Dec 27 2012 12:33:27
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    BBF - 2 days ago  » 
    OK guys I know what I will do.
    I'm ordering some Mycotrol (B007IVX2JU). I've got a bunch of captured adults saved for my research purposes so I'll expose a few to the product in a my containment jar and will see what happens in 5 days. They will be completely isolated, airtight, so no danger to me or anyone else.

    First, obviously, per my messages above, I recommend strongly against implementing this as a home treatment until it is approved for this use -- and we know how to implement it safely and effectively (and this has not been determined yet).

    Second, Beauveria bassiana has already been tested in a lab setting (see links above) so I am not sure what exactly you hope to find out by using it in jars?

    Third, Mycotrol is an agricultural product labeled for use in greenhouses and outdoor settings. (label PDF, MSDS pdf)

    From the label:

    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its
    labeling. Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other
    persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the
    area during application. "

  14. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Dec 27 2012 12:36:56
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    nervousbreakdown - 5 hours ago  » 
    that even "official" PCO doesn't KNOW a thing about BB in here.
    He's supposed to come back soon, I'll ask him about the forbidden use of dichlorvos or what they REALLY used (he told me dichlorvos but maybe made a mistake?)
    !

    I am not knowledgeable of the laws which apply to pesticides in the EU. It's fully possible as far as I know that the product could legally be used if it was already in the PCO's possession. (The wording on the link above stated the product could "no longer be placed on the market" after 1 Nov. 12.)

  15. BBF

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    Sat Dec 29 2012 7:28:56
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    Nobugsonme - 1 day ago  » 
    First, obviously, per my messages above, I recommend strongly against implementing this as a home treatment until it is approved for this use -- and we know how to implement it safely and effectively (and this has not been determined yet).

    Hmmmm... "Pre-harvest interval for Mycotrol O is zero (0) days. Mycotrol O can be applied up to the day of harvest." Something tells me that the spores themselves are harmless, it's the suspension forming agent that causes issues when inhaled.

    Second, Beauveria bassiana has already been tested in a lab setting (see links above) so I am not sure what exactly you hope to find out by using it in jars?

    1) test it in NON-lab settings
    2) see for myself if it actually works on a single BB, and how exactly and in what time period.
    3) see what happens when a treated BB contacts untreated ones.
    4) try application methods other than spraying.

    Third, Mycotrol is an agricultural product labeled for use in greenhouses and outdoor settings.

    "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its
    labeling. Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other
    persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the
    area during application. "

    Question: have you ever torrented a movie?

    Anyway. Here's what happened.

    A live adult bedbug has been placed into a test area (a plastic disposable cup). A Q-tip lightly dipped in Mycotrol was used to draw a circle around the bedbug. Once the BB crossed the circle (with some difficulty, probably due to Mycotrol's oil-like viscosity), it was moved to the sealed test jar and the cup was rinsed and discarded. Now we wait and see what happens.

  16. endless_nightmare

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sat Dec 29 2012 8:26:18
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    BBF,

    I'm as currious as you about this effect of this fungus (sorry I called it a product before, I did not mean to imply it was approved for BB)

    The thing about your test BBF is that I'm pretty certain it will kill the bedbugs, but it does not reveal anything about releasing the spore inside a house, and this is really where the fungus would PERHAPS be interesting because the bugs would take it with them and carry it to the other bugs.

    That is what we need to know, how dangerous really, is releasing the spore in your room, in your house, perhaps it could kill the bugs indeed, but you may have serious health hazards on your hands.

    As a really sick person I go to doctors all the time, they always ask about my bed bugs because the stress of having them impacts my health, so I discussed this fungus with them, they are health specialist, they all advised me strongly about not doing this (I was thinking of trying it) and staying away until more research is done.

    I know how horrible having bed bugs is (14 months plus here), I'm super desperate, but I think releasing spores is way too big of a risk

    And this is from a person who applied a crapload of Propoxur in house (it is labelled for indoor use in Canada but not for bedbugs) the stench was horrible and I still have bed bugs it only drove them away for a little bit

    I get your point about the torrent thing, (not that I ever downloaded any), but there is no health risk involved, I belive Nobugsonme was making a point about how dangerous to your health it can be, and I believe she is right

  17. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sat Dec 29 2012 17:50:05
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    Thanks, endless, I am not against the idea that this might work in a field setting, but I am concerned about potential health effects and also the fact that we don't have any idea about what sort of application is necessary, effective, and safe.

    I haven't downloaded torrents either.

    I'm not interested in arguing, BBF, but I am concerned about others following your example.

    Scientifically, it proves nothing if you kill bed bugs in a jar (aka a controlled setting). If you decide to apply it to your home, then realize that applying a product yourself using your own ideas about how to apply it is NOT responsible field testing. Your assessment of whether that works or not will not be counted as having the weight of a scientific study. Your study won't be controlled. We have no way to even verify bed bugs are involved.

    You will no doubt do as you like (and good luck to you, sincerely) but regardless of your personal experience, I will recommend others wait until (a) the substance is approved for legal use against bed bugs, (b) details of dosing and application are determined by researchers so as to be safe and effective against bed bugs in the home-- IF it ends up being determined that they are safe and effective in the home.

  18. BBF

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    Sat Dec 29 2012 19:29:15
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    endless_nightmare - 11 hours ago  » 
    The thing about your test BBF is that I'm pretty certain it will kill the bedbugs, but it does not reveal anything about releasing the spore inside a house,

    First of all, my test is not about releasing the spore inside the house, but about releasing them inside sealed containers. Next, you did not read it well: while the original idea about Mycontrol is spraying it (you can not reasonably go around the greenhouse or field, applying it with a cotton swab, can you?), my idea is NOT spraying but topical application, where spores are glued to the surface.

    and this is really where the fungus would PERHAPS be interesting because the bugs would take it with them and carry it to the other bugs.

    Afraid it won't work. So far, on the 2 test subjects I tried, they are almost instantly incapacitated when they touched the line drawn by Mycontrol. The first one touched the freshly drawn line and nearly JUMPED upwards, then continued to cross, doing that jump-like thing every time his body lowered down. I don't know if it feels pain or something, but it definitely was not happy. It has been 12 hours ago and since then it sits in the containment jar where I dropped it afterwards, not trying to crawl or even flip over, although his legs are still moving time to time. The second subject I tried today, this time on the dried up line (same one I drew 12 hours ago) and it is still sitting in the test area right next to Mycotrol line it touched, unwilling or unable to crawl away. So I'm afraid Mycotrol is more of an instant killer than that silver bullet. I'll keep experimenting.

    Edit: Just caught a third subject. I was wondering if my first 2 were not all that lively because they were hungry and I kept them unfed in jars. Well, the 3rd one was clearly sufficiently lively — but Mycotrol had the same effect on it: as soon as it as little as touched the Mycotrol line with its foot, it nearly jumped back and did that little dance, flipping over. It's still crawling around the containment area, not crossing the Mycotrol lines. I think I know effective BB containment method now... if they try to do that dance in a vertical surface, they are destined to fall down.

    As a really sick person I go to doctors all the time

    Tough luck. As George Carlin put it, "My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles, with night vision and laser scopes. And we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs and anti personnel fragmentation mines. " So I'm not worried about health hazards to myself, and I'm certainly not recommending that YOU use Mycontrol. But I will call my own shots, thankyouverymuch.

    I get your point about the torrent thing, (not that I ever downloaded any),

    I totally trust you guys. I also absolutely trust you you never ever in your life crossed a street while the light was red.

  19. BBF

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Sat Dec 29 2012 19:33:57
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    I have some kind of trouble posting quotes... When "quoting" someone with a link, the post just disappears.

  20. Nobugsonme

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    BBF - 9 minutes ago  » 
    I have some kind of trouble posting quotes... When "quoting" someone with a link, the post just disappears.

    Not so. The post above wet into the spam filter in error. I released it minutes later, and you can see it above just fine. It shouldn't happen again. But if it does, please don't repost four more times-- this only convinces the system you're a spammer.

  21. BBF

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    Nobugsonme - 7 minutes ago  » 

    BBF - 9 minutes ago  » 
    I have some kind of trouble posting quotes... When "quoting" someone with a link, the post just disappears.

    Not so. The post above wet into the spam filter in error. I released it minutes later, and you can see it above just fine. It shouldn't happen again. But if it does, please don't repost four more times-- this only convinces the system you're a spammer.

    Well, it did not give me any kind error message, so I did not know that. It looked to me like the post button did absolutely nothing. How am I supposed to know what to [not] do if I do not know what is wrong?

  22. Nobugsonme

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    BBF - 18 minutes ago  » 

    BBF - 9 minutes ago  » 
    I have some kind of trouble posting quotes... When "quoting" someone with a link, the post just disappears.

    Well, it did not give me any kind error message, so I did not know that. It looked to me like the post button did absolutely nothing. How am I supposed to know what to [not] do if I do not know what is wrong?

    Whoa, BBF. No one said you should have known! I was explaining-- as I clearly said-/ in case it happens again, and I added a smiley so you would hopefully understand I was doing so in a good-natured way.

    The software is not perfect. I also did not program it. But it does a pretty good job for us.

  23. BBF

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    Nobugsonme - 7 minutes ago  » 
    Whoa, BBF. No one said you should have known! I was explaining-- as I clearly said-/ in case it happens again, and I added a smiley so you would hopefully understand I was doing so in a good-natured way.
    The software is not perfect. I also did not program it. But it does a pretty good job for us.

    Hey, I did not mean my response to sound offensive. I did not take yours as such either. Let's just move on back to the fungi

  24. Nobugsonme

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    Sat Dec 29 2012 20:32:04
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    I am out of things to say about fungi, for now!

  25. BBF

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    As I said, at this moment it looks like Mycotrol is more of an instant killer (or at least incapacitator) rather than a spreadable bug disease Maybe because BBs are smaller than its target pests?

  26. bed-bugscouk

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    Hi,

    I had avoiding commenting as I felt I had said enough on the other thread but the more I think about this and the more I apply the rules of 6 Sigma the less I am convinced by it as an approach.

    The world is simply not short of contact killers and when you start thinking along the lines of infestation dynamics you realise it's not even heading in the right direction.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bedbug infestations in domestic and commercial settings. The patent numbers are GB2463953 and GB2470307.

    "Astral Entomologist - because so many people say my ideas are out of this world"
  27. BBF

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    It has only been 36 hours since the infection for the first test subject, and it's still alive and kicking (if barely). Let's wait for full five days, as per study, to see what happens at the end. Once it's dead, I'll drop it into the vial with others to see if it the fungus from the first one will infect the rest.

  28. Nobugsonme

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    BBF said,

    It has only been 36 hours since the infection for the first test subject, and it's still alive and kicking (if barely). Let's wait for full five days, as per study, to see what happens at the end. Once it's dead, I'll drop it into the vial with others to see if it the fungus from the first one will infect the rest.

    You seem to have ignored my post above, so I am reposting the relevant part below:

    Nobugsonme - 1 day ago  » 

    I'm not interested in arguing, BBF, but I am concerned about others following your example.
    Scientifically, it proves nothing if you kill bed bugs in a jar (aka a controlled setting).

    If you decide to apply it to your home, then realize that applying a product yourself using your own ideas about how to apply it is NOT responsible field testing. Your assessment of whether that works or not will not be counted as having the weight of a scientific study. Your study won't be controlled. We have no way to even verify bed bugs are involved.

    You will no doubt do as you like (and good luck to you, sincerely) but regardless of your personal experience, I will recommend others wait until (a) the substance is approved for legal use against bed bugs, (b) details of dosing and application are determined by researchers so as to be safe and effective against bed bugs in the home-- IF it ends up being determined that they are safe and effective in the home.

  29. BBF

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    Look, I am not trying to convince anything or anyone or to suggest or recommend anything. I love to tinker, that's all I can say. Nobody has direct contact with that scientist and I bet he's way too busy with, like, serious SCIENCE! to answer questions from curious people like me.

    I'm curious what happens, how it works, etc etc. So that said, I'm doing my own research. It proves nothing. It accomplishes nothing — beside one thing: it satisfies my curiosity. And, I'm posting the results of my experiments here so other tinkerers like me do NOT have to do it on their own.

    We have no way to even verify bed bugs are involved.

    Oh believe me I know what a bedbug looks like; and if you do not trust me I can post pictures, and even videos.

  30. gotem

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    I'm actually very interested in the fungus, and no more frightened of it than the multiple chemicals being used to treat at present time. . I'm not planning on using it anytime soon, giving it a while for more research and to see others luck. I also understand others reluctance to believe this may actually work. However, this fungus is used on food crops, and on greenhouses ... I live. In an area with ton of green houses and actually know a few people who operate them. One I talked to does use a product containing the fungus frequently. I didn't want to admit my infestation to this particular person, just acted like I was interested in it for gardening. He said it can irritate skin, so wear gloves. One thing I find interesting is that if the spores were going to run rampant and cause respiratory distress, a greenhouse would be the PERFECT place to do so, high humidity, and heat. Like I said, I've been patient this long.. I'm willing to wait for more lab testing, but I'm also will to ask questions, read listen to others experiences, and keep an open mind about the future of this fungus being used in home environments. To be honest if I didn't have children in the house I WOULD be tempted to try it! But, I'm playing it safe.

  31. gotem

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    Just wanted to add one positive indication of products anybody else aware that it is already being used on mosquito netting to combat malaria? Only found one mention of this in an article and would love to follow up on success/failure/health concerns for such utilization ..out of curiosity if anyone happens to come across more info on it.

  32. Nobugsonme

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    BBF - 1 hour ago  » 

    We have no way to even verify bed bugs are involved.

    Oh believe me I know what a bedbug looks like; and if you do not trust me I can post pictures, and even videos.

    It's nothing personal. My point is that we can't rely on "research" unknown individuals report doing, and posting images of bed bugs doesn't prove they're there or that they were killed. Again, nothing personal.

  33. Nobugsonme

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    gotem,

    I'm interested in the fungus too. I just don't think people should experiment with it. If it becomes an approved treatment and there are guidelines for using it safely and effectively, I'll be excited to hear that.

  34. endless_nightmare

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    BBF - 1 day ago  » 

    As a really sick person I go to doctors all the time

    Tough luck. As George Carlin put it, "My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles, with night vision and laser scopes. And we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs and anti personnel fragmentation mines. " So I'm not worried about health hazards to myself, and I'm certainly not recommending that YOU use Mycontrol. But I will call my own shots, thankyouverymuch.

    Gotta love George, I'm a fan actually. I used to have the exact same attitude as you before I got hit with my Cancer diagnosis (then a bunch of other things). Just saying you never know what's on the corner in life, and really hard times may hit without warning.

    The reference to the doctors was just that in general they don't think anyone (healthy or not) should be experimenting with spores inside. Of course you can do what you want and totally ignore this outside suggestion I got concerning the topic.

    I actually put it out there to help, as perhaps other people are reading on and thinking of trying experimenting with the substance.

    Anyway best of luck to you

  35. DougSummersMS

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    gotem - 5 hours ago  » 
    Just wanted to add one positive indication of products anybody else aware that it is already being used on mosquito netting to combat malaria? Only found one mention of this in an article and would love to follow up on success/failure/health concerns for such utilization ..out of curiosity if anyone happens to come across more info on it.

    I read a study that looked at how the fungus could be applied to mosquito netting, but it was an experiment in the lab... I have not seen any mention of the treated netting being used in an occupied setting... I suspect that you have misquoted the article.

    I was unable to locate any studies where human safety was evaluated in an indoor environment.

  36. BBF

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    OK, more than 5 days since my experiment on isolated bedbugs started.

    Subjects that were exposed to line of Mycotrol on Dec 29st: dead. (Some of them died sooner, some later. I am not sure whether to attribute that to spore action, or to the fact that as they crossed the sticky lines, they eventually flipped over and did the break dance on their backs, which resulted with their cuticles to end up completely covered with Mycotrol -- they could have simply suffocated.)

    Subject that was exposed to the same (dried up) line of Mycotrol on Jan 1st: dead. The dead body was dropped on Jan 4th into a separate jar with a fresh bedbug. (See below)

    Subject that was exposed to still the same (further dried up) line of Mycotrol on Jan 3rd: incapacitated, laying on its back, swinging its feet but unable to flip over. When flipped over manually, eventually flips over again and once again unable to get upright.

    Fresh subject that was exposed to the one who died of Mycotrol (see above) on Jan 4th and huddled with the dead body for a while: incapacitated in exactly the same manner as the one in the previous paragraph.

    This is not a scientific research. This is not intended to encourage you to do anything. I'm simply documenting my observations.

    The only problem now is that I'm running out of bedbugs to test on. It's 2nd night in a row I haven't caught a single bug (NOT because of Mycotrol -- all the testing is being done in isolated jars -- but because for the past 2-3 weeks I've been staying up all night manually catching them.)

  37. EffeCi

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    My two cents about Beauveria bassiana.

    It's absolutely safe for humans but it needs an high humidity level to do its job.
    Outdoor it's a great solution to reduce pest insects populations.
    It's sprayed on leaves and other vegetable surfaces, where insects normally live.
    The first air layer above any vegetable surface has the same humidity level (and often temperature too) of a tropical jungle, due to transpiration's activite, so insects and spores are in contact in best way possible . That allows Beauveria to do its job.
    Indoor standards of humidity and temperature are not that favourable for its developement and, what's worst, BBs tend to avoid places with high humidity level.

    It will not work.

  38. Dave3624

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    Very interesting, I wasnt even aware of this thread until this morning.

    I've never had any luck capturing a BB, I tried a CO2/yeast trap I bought online but that never produced anything.
    The BBs I've seen in/on the bed are always too fast, as soon as I'd expose them they'd disappear into the bed frame/base before I could smash or catch one.

  39. rs1971

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    Dave3624 - 4 hours ago  » 
    Very interesting, I wasnt even aware of this thread until this morning.
    I've never had any luck capturing a BB, I tried a CO2/yeast trap I bought online but that never produced anything.
    The BBs I've seen in/on the bed are always too fast, as soon as I'd expose them they'd disappear into the bed frame/base before I could smash or catch one.

    Who identified your infestation? To have as many bites as you experience and as many bugs as you've seen and not to have been able to catch even one doesn't make any sense.

  40. bed-bugscouk

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    rs1971 - 48 minutes ago  » 
    Who identified your infestation? To have as many bites as you experience and as many bugs as you've seen and not to have been able to catch even one doesn't make any sense.

    Agreed unless it was pscocids that someone is assuming are bedbug nymphs and which are mold spore eaters so expect the numbers to go up as you have just laid on the worlds biggest book louse all you can eat buffet.

    David

  41. Nobugsonme

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    Dave3624 - 7 hours ago  » 
    Very interesting, I wasnt even aware of this thread until this morning.
    I've never had any luck capturing a BB, I tried a CO2/yeast trap I bought online but that never produced anything.
    The BBs I've seen in/on the bed are always too fast, as soon as I'd expose them they'd disappear into the bed frame/base before I could smash or catch one.

    Hi Dave,

    If you click the "Beauveria bassiana" tag at the top of your thread or this one, you'll see all tagged threads: http://bedbugger.com/forum/tags/beauveria-bassiana

    I agree with others' comments about the importance of making sure you Identified the sample correctly.

  42. Dave3624

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    I personally identified them, I found the two harborages when examining the bed, what gave them away was the fecal smears/stains leading into the harborages.

    When I sprayed the Invader (propoxur) into them using the cans attached tube I flushed several adults and a bunch of nymphs out of each.

    Heh, I used the pictures found on this site (among others) to identify them. Its how I found bedbugger.com in the first place.

  43. BBF

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    Dave3624 - 13 hours ago  » 
    Very interesting, I wasnt even aware of this thread until this morning.
    I've never had any luck capturing a BB, I tried a CO2/yeast trap I bought online but that never produced anything.

    Dave3624, in my particular case capturing is so much easier because I've gotten rid of my mattress which had main nests, and now I'm only capturing those coming from secondary harborages, such as under the baseboards. They end up on the walls where they are easy to capture. If you are interested, read about that here: http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/documenting-my-bedbug-experience

  44. BBF

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    Mycotrol update:

    * Subject that was exposed on Jan 3rd to the dried up line of Mycotrol: dead
    * Subject that was exposed on Jan 4th to the one who died of Mycotrol: dead.
    * 2nd instar nymph exposed on Jan 6th to the dried up line of Mycotrol: dead

    Conclusions:
    1) secondary infection (through exposure to infected bedbugs) works.
    2) Mycotrol remains sufficiently potent for at least a week (the initial line was drawn on Dec 29th)

    Now, time for tretiary infection test. One adult and one 4th instar nymph, both from my original capture batch (Dec 17-18th) were dropped, respectively, to the dead Jan 4th subject and dead Jan 3rd subject above, respectively. Let's see what happens, although by now I can tell already

  45. Nobugsonme

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    BBF,

    You seem to be posting your experiences and updates in two threads, this one (started by someone else) and this other one.

    This is confusing -- I suggest you continue posting your updates only in the thread you started for that purpose.

    You can always find a link to each of your threads in your profile. There's a link in the right sidebar.

    Thanks!

  46. BBF

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    Well, I'm posting the Mycotrol experiment here, since this thread is about b. bassiana, and my generic bedbug battle (which does NOT involve Mycontrol ... at leas yet...) over there. This forum is a little cumbersome...

  47. Nobugsonme

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    BBF - 3 hours ago  » 
    Well, I'm posting the Mycotrol experiment here, since this thread is about b. bassiana, and my generic bedbug battle (which does NOT involve Mycontrol ... at leas yet...) over there. This forum is a little cumbersome...

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the forum is cumbersome"? Let me know if there's something which can be improved on and I will try and help change it, or at least explain the reasons why things have been done a certain way.

    You're right this thread is about b. bassiana but to be fair, it wasn't originally about your experiments with it. It's fine to continue, now you've started.

  48. BBF

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    Mycotrol update:

    BBF - 3 days ago  » 
    Now, time for tretiary infection test. One adult and one 4th instar nymph, both from my original capture batch (Dec 17-18th) were dropped, respectively, to the dead Jan 4th subject and dead Jan 3rd subject above, respectively. Let's see what happens, although by now I can tell already

    As of today:
    * 4th instar nymph from above (that makes it a 2nd generation of b. bassiana): incapacitated, laying on its back, barely wiggling
    * adult from above (that makes it a 3rd generation of b. bassiana): dead.

    I think this is sufficiently conclusive... Testing 4th generation is not going to add anything new.

    Now, time to test the spore viability after 13 days. I have exposed a fresh adult to still the same dried-up line of Mycotrol and dropped it into a brand new, fresh jar (to ensure that it's not spores from the old subjects that will kill it). Let's wait 3 days.

  49. BBF

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    As of today:
    * 4th instar nymph from above: dead for good.

    Moral of the story: Mycotrol (b. bassiana) works.
    * In experimental conditions (subjects contained in jars), it reliably kills the subjects who dare to attempt crossing a line drawn with a Q-tip dipped in Mycotrol, within 5 days.
    * Fresh subjects exposed to the abovementioned dead subject also die within 5 days.

    Sadly, I cannot do a real life test because by now, I'm out of bedbugs! No sightings in the past 3 nights, so I'm limited to about 15 out of those I've caught in the past month that I'm still keeping around for research purposes, and I'm NOT releasing those back into the wild!

  50. EffeCi

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    Can you please post a pic of the jar/jars in wich you kept them?

  51. BBF

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    EffeCi - 7 minutes ago  » 
    Can you please post a pic of the jar/jars in wich you kept them?

    The jars used for the abovelisted experiment were the same orange pillboxes as the 2nd one on the left, but they have been heat treated and discarded by now, in order to make sure the residual spores remaining after the dead subjects will not mess up with the new experiments, if any.

    The small glass one in the front contains the original samples from when I discovered the infestation (at that point I did not mark the capture date, but I'd say around December 10th) and most of them are still alive. There's an inseminated female in there too, as I see a few 1st instar nymphs in that jar, and I did not capture any.

  52. EffeCi

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    Thank you very much.
    Just a question.
    Didn't you put in every jar a piece of paper to offer BBs a place to harborage?

  53. BBF

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    EffeCi - 22 minutes ago  » 
    Just a question.
    Didn't you put in every jar a piece of paper to offer BBs a place to harborage?

    Well, I could but I do not see a point.
    * Harborage is a particular place where they stay for extended periods of time. For all I care about in this case, they will stay inside the sealed jar; and I do not really care about a specific spot in the jar.
    * Harborage is a place where they hang out together. Since there's one specimen per jar (except for the jar in the front) anyway, that does not matter
    * Harborage offers protection from direct light, and dehydration through evaporation. My jars are sitting in a darker place not exposed to direct light, and since they are sealed, water content in them remains constant so it shouldn't be an issue.
    * Extra stuff in jars creates unnecessary problems when extracting them for experiment (so far, I just "pour" them out since the use of pincers can damage them, or offer escape opportunity).

  54. EffeCi

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    Well, I could but I do not see a point.

    1st point is:
    If a bedbug has not something to cling on , it will easily turn upside down and die in a few days. I learned that "on my skin" when, some years ago, I start to collect specimens to start my BBs livestock.
    Actually, the first thing I do when I catch new specimens in the field is putting in the vial a little piece of paper.

    2nd point is:
    In a sealed jar, the humidity that comes out from a BB (through breathing) remains in the jar and so creates a very good environment for Beauveria

    Thanks again for answers...

  55. bedbugsuptown

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    * [quote]Extra stuff in jars creates unnecessary problems when extracting them for experiment (so far, I just "pour" them out since the use of pincers can damage them, or offer escape opportunity).

    MoooWhaaaH! Yes, experitment (sssssss) can we see, please, my precious

  56. EffeCi

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    Just in order to be clear:
    I'm not (absolutely not) against the idea of a parasite fungus against BBs, because I like green and natural remedies (I stopped to use chemicals against BBs more than 4 years ago)
    I don't think it can be so dangerous or allergic for humans, considering that Beauveria and humans have lived together for centuries in Europe. Before 2nd World War the most part of italian farmers used to massively breed silkworms in the summer (that's why mulberry is so common in North Italy), and Beauveria was a common parasite of silkworm but there is no history about allergies due to it.
    My big doubt is that Beauveria can be effective in a domestic environment, because home umidity is not that favourable.
    And if you try to raise humidity up to Beauveria needs, Beauveria will be the least of your spores (and mites) problems...

  57. BBF

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    EffeCi - 2 hours ago  » 
    1st point is:
    If a bedbug has not something to cling on , it will easily turn upside down and die in a few days. I learned that "on my skin" when, some years ago, I start to collect specimens to start my BBs livestock.
    2nd point is:
    In a sealed jar, the humidity that comes out from a BB (through breathing) remains in the jar and so creates a very good environment for Beauveria

    1.1) I check on them every day and flip the ones that ended on their back, back to their feet.
    1.2) The ones in my Beauveria experiment had the dead body of the previous victim subject to cling to.
    1.3) The control ones (see 2 jars marked "Captured Jan 5th" on the photo?) are still alive and well, while the ones in contact with those dead from B.B. are dead.
    1.4) In 2 days I'm going to do another round Beauveria spore viability test (14 days after the spore application) so I will do it with paper as you suggest.

    2) My OTOH estimate is that if a bedbug was completely made of water, it would not be enough to raise the humidity of the container by more than 1%. (If you insist, I can do the precise calculation).

  58. microbio

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    Hello. I am new to this forum. I would like to bring my 2 cents of knowledge since I have read some misconceptions about Beauveria bassiana. Beauveria bassiana requires high humidity only[b] to express itself on infected insects. It does not require high humidity for infection since the insect cuticle has enough humidity for the spores to germinate. Therefore the effectiveness of the fungus is not dependent upon humidity. If an insect is in contact with spores it can desseminate the spores to other insects when in contact. The experiment shared by BBF is an example of this horizontal transmission (insect to insect). If you want to see the fungus grow on the dead insect bodies one must place them in a high humidity environment.

    A comment to BBF: It appears you used the Mycotrol O undiluted and therefore the spores would remain viable for a long time in the treatment jar. They would only be inactivated (killed) if exposed to high heat, UV light (sun light) or if mixed with water and left stanting for over 6 hours.

    I do not know much about bed bugs, but is there an attractant for them?

  59. BBF

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    microbio - 2 minutes ago  » 
    I would like to bring my 2 cents of knowledge

    Thanks, you are a godsend!
    1) Indeed I did not see any expression like this on the dead bugs in my experiment:

    so I was wondering if I simply have a different strain of Beauveria that does not do that.
    2) I would say that for our purposes, it does not really matter how exactly Beauveria get transmitted, as long as one infected bug can cause others to die. We want them to DIE!; how exactly, matters much less. Although it makes me wonder how many spores the first bug carried along, so it was not only enough for the *second* bug which got in contact with it to die, but also the *third* one which was only in contact with *second*.
    3) Yes I used Mycotrol O undiluted. I did not see a need to dilute it, since I have a quart of the stuff, and I have barely used two drops of it.
    4) Yes, there are attractants. See the study.

  60. microbio

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    Thanks for the study. If there is an attractant, a BB trap can be developed to get them infected with spores and then horizontally transmit to other individuals. This would be a safe way to control BB without having to spray the product all over.

    From what I read, one liter of Mycotrol O contains 2 X 10E13 spores, therfore 1 ml would be 2 X10E10 (20 billion), so a couple of drops (20 drops per ml approx) would have 2 billion spores. Depending on the insect, it may take 20 to 1,000 spores to infect and kill, so you had plenty spores to kill a good number of them.

  61. betty482

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    Thank you microbio. Your input is appreciated.

  62. BBF

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    So, it looks like we have a nice trap/killer idea: the attractant (CO2 release vent + hand warmer) on a flat surface, with a line of Mycotrol around them (since it's not diluted, it will remain viable for a good while). Works exactly like the detector trap, except that instead of trapping them, it infects them and allows them to return to the harborages to infect others... You leave that thing on the bed overnight, and go sleep somewhere else. When you come back 5 days later, they are all dead. Nice!

    Given that it does not involve spraying (and Mycotrol is never going to touch any of your possessions), it should be quite safe.

  63. bedbugsuptown

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    Hey BBF-- if EffiCi's not flinging warnings at you, and your science abilities--sorry, but I'm science stunada, Marone a mi, and idiot. But g'head man. Hope you get what your lookin for. Blessings on your project.

  64. betty482

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    IMHO, it now rests on the CO2 production more than the heat factor in attracting the bugs. There is also the issue of you as the "major" attractant to the bed bug versus the CO2 production contraption. Please don't jump too quickly to the finish line. Does one continue to stay in the room infested with the bed bugs or not? They will eventually find the major source of CO2. If one were able to attract the bed bugs while sleeping and still be able to protect himself from their getting to you, it would be ideal. I'd love to see their attempting, to no avail, in reaching you and crossing the lines of fungus only to self-kill. So....you either find a way to seal off the room infested while you sleep elsewhere, or find a way to protect yourself from their biting. One step at a time. Do I think you're almost there? Absolutely.

  65. BBF

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    Re: bedbugsuptown:
    Um, I totally don't get what you've just said. Either way, I'm not going to do that because, well, I'm out of bedbugs! I haven't seen one for 4th night straight now. However, as an engineer, I'm now tempted to go find an infested dwelling somewhere else and try!

  66. Demoralized

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    I have read the label for Mycotrol and it suggest spraying with compost teas when spraying. Doesn't compost emit C02?

    Maybe you could use a little compost in bin or comtainer as a CO2 attractant?

  67. EffeCi

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    You leave that thing on the bed overnight, and go sleep somewhere else. When you come back 5 days later, they are all dead. Nice!

    Bedbugs feed every 5-7 days, so in 5 you won't kill them all.
    Eggs hatch in about 10 days, so you'll have to wait at least 10-15 days to (reputedly) kill them all.
    Bedbugs are attracted by CO2 from the long distance, but they find their host by body heat from the short one.
    That's why CO2 traps are effective for monitoring, not for mass trapping. They catch some bugs, not a lot of them. So just a few of them will be infected by Beauveria, and it will take a long time to kill all other BBs.
    Even traps that use CO2 + heat + chemical lures are not that effective. Misleading insects is not always that easy.

  68. BBF

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    EffeCi - 2 hours ago  » 

    You leave that thing on the bed overnight, and go sleep somewhere else. When you come back 5 days later, they are all dead. Nice!

    Bedbugs feed every 5-7 days, so in 5 you won't kill them all.

    You clearly have not read the whole thread. With B. Bassiana, one bug returning to harborage with spores on it is enough to infect (and thus kill) the whole harborage. Five days, and all the infected ones are dead. Yes, single individuals remain, but that's a lesser problem now.

  69. BBF

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    Sun Jan 13 2013 17:32:15
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    Demoralized - 4 hours ago  » 
    I have read the label for Mycotrol and it suggest spraying with compost teas when spraying. Doesn't compost emit C02?
    Maybe you could use a little compost in bin or comtainer as a CO2 attractant?

    See my calculations on efficiency of attractants (warning: lots of SCIENCE!)

  70. EffeCi

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    Sun Jan 13 2013 18:40:52
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    With B. Bassiana, one bug returning to harborage with spores on it is enough to infect (and thus kill) the whole harborage.

    You're presuming that it may happen in field.
    You're presuming that Beauveria in field will have 100% of effectiveness
    You're presuming that each BB always comes back to the same harborage.
    You're presuming that BBs always are all strictly gathered together and in contact in an harborage
    You're presuming that is necessary to simulate an human body through the same quantity of released CO2

    Until today, you've simply repeated a known lab text. I reaffirm that there is an abyss between lab and field.

  71. BBF

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    Mon Jan 14 2013 2:56:30
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    Re: EffeCi
    "If you try something, the probability of it working is nonzero. If you do not try it, the probability of it not working is 100%."

  72. DougSummersMS

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    That type of pseudo scientific thinking should not be the basis for justifying uncontrolled trials using live human or animal subjects.

    EffeCi is trying to help you... You really should listen... He has listed a series of critical variables that will need to be addressed to produce meaningful results.

  73. BBF

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    *sigh*

    > You're presuming that it may happen in field.

    You are presuming it may not happen in the field. It may not. Or it may. We can presume all day, but the only way we can know for sure is by testing it in the field.

    > You're presuming that Beauveria in field will have 100% of effectiveness

    As per http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/what-about-beauvaria-bassiana#post-161836 :
    2 drops = 2 billion spores
    The length of lines drawn with 2 drops: 0.5 m ==> 4 000 000 spores per mm
    The size of a bedbug: 5 mm ==> the number of spores my bugs came in contact with: 20 000 000
    Number of spores needed to kill a bedbug: 1000
    Even if we assume only 1 spore out of every 1000 stuck to the bug, it still got enough to kill itself and 20 others.

    So, even 0,1% effectiveness works excessively well.

    > You're presuming that each BB always comes back to the same harborage.

    Does not matter. As long as it comes to some harborage. And even if it does not, some infected bugs will come to some harborages.

    > You're presuming that BBs always are all strictly gathered together and in contact in an harborage

    They don't have to. Crawling around leaving trail of spores is good enough.

    > You're presuming that is necessary to simulate an human body through the same quantity of released CO2

    It may be not necessary, but it is sufficient, according to http://www.hindawi.com/journals/psyche/2012/273613/ . I don't care if my first design is not the most efficient possible, as long as it does the job. First airplane wasn't exactly a perfect flyer either. If Wright brothers tried to design the like of Boeing 777, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

  74. bed-bugscouk

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    microbio - 1 day ago  » 
    Thanks for the study. If there is an attractant, a BB trap can be developed to get them infected with spores and then horizontally transmit to other individuals. This would be a safe way to control BB without having to spray the product all over.

    Hmmm an interesting idea but:

    You don't want a trap you want a device that they are attracted to that would enable them to pick up spores and transfer them to other harbourages. A trap would by definition stop them from being able to do this as they would be trapped.

    I actually discussed this concept with the manufacturers of this product a few weeks ago when this discussion started and we all concluded that spore transfer was not actually needed if said device actually encouraged bedbugs to live inside it rather than other harbourage points.

    The technology to efficiently do this has been on the market since 2009 and by applying the design principles of 6 sigma it cant be made any simpler.

    David

  75. EffeCi

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    2 drops = 2 billion spores
    The length of lines drawn with 2 drops: 0.5 m ==> 4 000 000 spores per mm
    The size of a bedbug: 5 mm ==> the number of spores my bugs came in contact with: 20 000 000
    Number of spores needed to kill a bedbug: 1000
    Even if we assume only 1 spore out of every 1000 stuck to the bug, it still got enough to kill itself and 20 others.

    You're presuming again...
    i.e. you're presuming thata bedbugs crawl with all their body in contact with surface.
    Well, they generally don't. BBs are "tip dancers" and they usually "crawl" touching the surface just with the end of their claws.
    So that's not 5 mm, but a lot less than a very little fraction of one.

    BBF, I have no doubts about your skill as an engineer but you're thinking "mechanically", not "entomologically". And it's the wrong approach for BBs.

  76. betty482

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    Mon Jan 14 2013 19:23:14
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    BBF question: What method do you use in order to draw the line of Mycotrol resulting in a raised bump? Is the Mycotrol a thick substance, do you dab it on, etc.?

  77. betty482

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    Thanks. Answers my question.

  78. EffeCi

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    If you spent less time answering on the forums and more time experimenting,

    That's a little bit insulting. You've experimented (in unfitting lab conditions) for a few weeks with a teen of BBs, I did that last 8 years in lab & field wiht hundreds or may be thousands of specimens.
    You're an engineer and you have started to study BBs (but just them) no more than a pair of months ago. I started to study insects when I was 13 and actually I'm 51.
    You made your experiment in artificial conditions (BBs in a glass jar) while I make my tests with different simulations of real field situations (DC has seen them and knows what I'm talking about).

    2) BBs are tip dancers, but they keep their head slightly higher than their rear, so as a result they nearly drag their "belly" across the surface;

    Sure. They do that in a glass jar, where they can't cling on a rough surface. So they can't walk in their normal way. As you said in another post of this thread, they often turned upside down, and that's not that normal.


    3) When they touch Mycotrol they nearly JUMP! in surprise, which oftentimes causes them to flop over right there, which ends them up on their backs right on the Mycotrol line, throughly soaked.

    Are you so sure that in an arena larger than a little glass jar they will go in contact with it?
    A stressed BB in a place where there's not a place to hide in will continuely walk in search of it and so it's really easy for it to touch the treated line. And if you put it within a ring of oil it has no chance to avoid it. Bedbugs normaly avoid substances like oil, because it may kill them simply by blocking their spiracles.
    Put a stressed mouse in a little box with an unbaited mouse snap trap and it will be caught in seconds. Put the same unbaited trap in a big arena with hiding places and look what happens.


    Not to mention that bedbugs are terrible actors in that they refuse to act on cue.

    That's simply funny. BBs are wonderful actors, if you just well know their behaviour.
    It looks like you don't.

    Anecdote:

    An old man was spreading salt powder by his door.
    Another man asked him "Why are you doing that?"
    "That's to keep away tigers"
    "But there no tigers here..."
    "Yeah, it works"

    Being an engineer, you should know what GIGO means.

    And, yes, that will be my last post in this thread. I really have to do some lab/field experiments based on a good idea I had on my oval office two weeks ago. First results are encouraging.

    You can go on on calculating and presuming. Good luck.

  79. theyareoutthere

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    Mon Jan 14 2013 20:26:40
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    Thanks for your input, EffeCi. I wish my Italian was as understandable as your English.

    They
    Are
    Out
    There
    = TAOT
  80. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 0:30:25
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    betty482 - 4 hours ago  » 
    Thanks. Answers my question.

    Betty,
    Please read your private messages.

  81. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 0:42:37
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    BBF said to EffeCi,

    If you spent less time answering on the forums and more time experimenting,

    BBF,

    EffeCi has been extremely patient and open-minded and civil to you, as I have tried to be.

    This isn't the first time you've been rude to people here.

    Please stop that.

    EffeCi and other pros here give their time to help others. If we took a vote, I don't have to guess who'd be sent off the island.

    Interestingly though, there's no voting involved.

  82. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 0:57:49
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    BBF,

    Your post above giving betty advice not to follow label instructions for dilution was deleted.

    Please do not tell people to ignore such label instructions for a product which, even when used in a setting and for a pest the label allows for, is highly diluted.

    You could be recommending things to others which can cause health hazards, and you're simply not in a position to argue otherwise.

    You should definitely not be making recommendations to others of any kind. I had understood (from posts like this) that you only wanted to describe your own experience.

    I'm tolerating that, for now, but won't tolerate you giving others suggestions for using this substance.

    Again, I would strongly advise others not to try and experiment with fungus until such time that the product has been appropriately field tested and approved for this use.


    betty
    ,

    You have previously (under another username) expressed an interest in trying Jules Noise's bed bug "trap," much discredited by experts. Interestingly, you're now (under a new username) providing the cheering section for someone who confirmed that idea doesn't work.

    You've also posted (under your old username) about a variety of other unproven methods, in several cases, ones experts and experienced non-experts advised against for good reason.

    If you actually have bed bugs, you might be better off getting your advice from sources with methods proven to work. There are experts here with good advice, and there are inexpensive DIY options which work.

  83. P Bello

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Tue Jan 15 2013 3:42:43
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    Hmmmm,

    a vote,

    hmmmmm . . .

    As a consulting entomologist I provide services for entities such as property managers, health/housing/emergency depts, schools, hospitality/resort/cruise industry, homeowners, food service, retail, pest professionals & product manufacturers. I recommend only efficacious methodologies, products and equipment. Professional relations have included Actisol, AMVAC, Atrix, BASF, Bayer, Catchmaster, FMC, GMT, Eaton, MattressSafe, Nisus, ProTeam, Rockwell, Syngenta & Woodstream. No compensation for product sales occurs. As inventor of Knight Safe bed bug sleep tent provides a royalty.
  84. BBF

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 8:19:12
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    Nobugsonme:

    I have answered the question "How did you do it". I did NOT make any encouraging statements ("You should ...").

    Not to mention that I'm describing my experiments in an isolated environment. I fail to see how it is encouraging people to do things.

    Either way. I really don't want to argue anymore, mostly because I cannot experimentally prove things anymore (nor do a live-fire B.Bassiana experiment) because I'm pretty much out of test subjects! I'm left with only a few, and I only get one new every other night now. And I'm using 2 more to test the viability of Mycotrol spores 14 days after application (one BB exposed and one control). And I'm not planning to *intentionally* breed them for experiments in my apartment!

  85. Nobugsonme

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 16:49:45
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    BBF - 8 hours ago  » 
    Nobugsonme:
    I have answered the question "How did you do it". I did NOT make any encouraging statements ("You should ...").

    Betty asked you about application and dilution. A reasonable assumption would be she's not planning to replicate your experiments in jars.

    You replied to Betty, to paraphrase, that while the product was labeled as being intended for dilution at such and such a volume, you felt there was (to quote you) "no good reason to dilute it" and gave some reasons why you thought so.

    So yes, you gave suggestions -- and ones which fall way outside of your expertise and which are in conflict with the labeling for the product when used properly (i.e. in the setting it's labeled for, which isn't inside a home, and the pests it's labeled for treating, which aren't bed bugs).

    I'm not saying this to engage in an argument, but to explain why the post was deleted and to clarify that I am asking you not to do such things.

    Good luck to you.

  86. betty482

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    Your assumption is incorrect David. That's the problem with assumptions....one should avoid them.

  87. theyareoutthere

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 19:25:15
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    Betty are you referring to Nobugsonme (the post above yours) or David Cain (who posted a day ago).

    Could you specify or quote each assumption that is wrong? And state why? Thanks!

  88. BBF

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 21:05:52
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    Re: Nobugsonme

    Since we all seem to be assumption happy here:

    I assumed that:

    1) Mycotrol ships in concentrated form a) for the same reason why fountain drinks ship undiluted: why ship a huge barrel of product that is 99% water (except when it's for immediate consumption like sodas, which is not our case here), when you can ship a small bottle of syrup and add water on the spot? b) because if somebody was stupid enough to ship it diluted in a huge barrel, it would have an inferior shelf life (we all remember that water makes spores expire in 6-7 days).

    2) the label explains that it has to be diluted so some idiot does not just pour it into the sprayer and go on spraying and then complain he only got a tiny plot and not a few acres worth. The same reason they write "not a flotation device" on inflatable mattresses. (Just between us: if I'm drowning and the mattress is my only option, I WILL use it as a flotation device, label be damned).

    3) since no spraying was involved in my experiment — only swabbing — and spores were attached to the isolated surface of the test dish (that is to be safely discarded once the tests are over) and not floating around, it did not really matter how diluted (or not diluted) Mycotrol was — for the humans involved. (It clearly did make quite some difference for BBs, but we DO want them to die after all!) Moreover, the dilution would dilute the thickening agent as well, causing REDUCED sticking, thus making things, in fact, worse.

    Note: this is an explanation of my assumption and not an argument. You can counter them with your own assumptions all you want, but without the links to the studies that actually prove the dangers of that approach, they will be ignored. The fact that I'm still alive and BBs are not is my proof. :-b

  89. theyareoutthere

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Tue Jan 15 2013 21:11:35
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    BBF, please don't take this the wrong way...but...

    1. Do you talk to your co-workers in the tone these posts come off as?
    2. Do you talk to your significant other in this tone?
    3. Do you talk to the guy who cut in line in this tone?

    I know I'm seeming argumentative and this is the pot calling the kettle black, but you are presenting this like science. Let' make a deal..come back in six months and let us know how everything is working (I don't mean your health, I mean BBs, your perception of the experiment, etc).

    The way I've been reading your posts is that you consider it a success. As a scientist, you understand that it takes many, many "field trails" with similar results and all other variables factored out to declare it a success?

  90. betty482

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 21:21:08
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    My "assumption" statement was directed at nobugsonme (the host) when he stated, " Betty asked you about application and dilution. A reasonable assumption would be she's not planning to replicate your experiments in jars." If nobugsonme wants to know why I asked, he can ask me rather than making "resonable assumptions". I apologize for the confusion.

  91. BBF

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 21:28:38
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    theyareoutthere:

    You know what pisses me off in this whole situation?

    The fact that you do not understand my motivation here.

    So here is a bullet list for you:

    1) It is not your (or anybody else's, for that matter) business what I'm doing on my property, as long as it is confined to my property and is not affecting neighbors in any way (TL:DR: what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas).
    2) I do not care what you think about whether my approach to doing things is correct or not. I believe I have enough brainpower to do my own thinking and I don't need a nanny. Yes I understand some things are riskier than others, and I can do my own risk management pretty well. The fact that I'm still alive proves it (and trust me, Mycotrol is probably one of the safest substances I dealt with in my life).
    3) I am a self responsible individual. If I end up causing myself harm, it's my own damn fault, and I'm not going to run around screaming, "oh why nobody warned me!!!!". Thankfully, due to the fact that I'm not an American male, I haven't been subjected to the pussyfication.
    4) I am here purely to share knowledge. So you know what I have done, and others do not have to do the same things that I have already done, and if something bad happens to me, they will be aware of it. If you do not want that, fine, I can get outta here and you will never hear from me again, but it does not mean that will negate the points 1-3 above. I will still do them, the only difference is that you will not know about them. (And, yeeeeah, of course, "what you don't know, cannot hurt you").

    Once again: you don't like what I'm doing, you don't like how I talk, whatever, fine, I will get out no problem. But with me, you will lose my data points. (Even if they are not 100% solid data points by your standards, to my understanding... SOME data is better than no data.)

  92. theyareoutthere

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 21:38:51
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    I'm not that interested in your data, at this point. It's too small a sample to be meaningful.

    But, I do care about remaining polite and so I'll let you be for a while. I think my tone comment was justified, particularly after your various responses to experts here. Although I play around on this forum and am sometimes very guilty of off topic discussions, there are a lot of people on this forum who expect to see regular, wise comments from the experts. A real discussion with thoughtful dialogue....isn't that what a forum means?

  93. BBF

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    theyareoutthere - 1 hour ago  » 
    I'm not that interested in your data, at this point. It's too small a sample to be meaningful.

    George Carlin as usual:

    A Reverend Donald Wildman in Mississippi heard something on the radio that he didn't like. Well, Reverend, did anyone ever tell you there are two KNOBS on the radio? Two. Knobs. On the radio. One of them turns the radio OFF, and the other one CHANGES THE STATION! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station! It's called freedom of choice, and it's one of the principles this country was founded upon.

    If something is not interesting for you personally, it doesn't mean it's not interesting to others. If I read somebody's thread like mine once I came here, I wouldn't have conducted my own experiment because I would have known all I wanted to know. But since there was no such thread, I had to satisfy my curiosity the hard way.

    You are not interested in my data, fine, please move on, nothing to see here. There is at the very least one other person who is.

  94. theyareoutthere

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    Tue Jan 15 2013 23:24:37
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    Ah, yes, I am familiar with the concept that each decision is a "vote".

    So, what would your NEXT action be if you read your thread? You can list all the steps if you prefer...

    BTW, there was a nice change in tone in the quote below from you. It's appreciated (and that's sincere). George Carlin is amusing, and I do prefer him to some of the more recent comics. What do you think about Louis CK? Did I get that right? My family member is an engineer (sorta kinda) and loves Louis CK. I've made it through three shows...

    BBF said:

    George Carlin as usual:

    A Reverend Donald Wildman in Mississippi heard something on the radio that he didn't like. Well, Reverend, did anyone ever tell you there are two KNOBS on the radio? Two. Knobs. On the radio. One of them turns the radio OFF, and the other one CHANGES THE STATION! Imagine that, reverend, you can actually change the station! It's called freedom of choice, and it's one of the principles this country was founded upon.

    If something is not interesting for you personally, it doesn't mean it's not interesting to others. If I read somebody's thread like mine once I came here, I wouldn't have conducted my own experiment because I would have known all I wanted to know. But since there was no such thread, I had to satisfy my curiosity the hard way.

    You are not interested in my data, fine, please move on, nothing to see here. There is at the very least one other person who is.


    Quote

  95. BBF

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    P.S. I find it highly... suspicious amusing that professionals — the ones who are supposed to be most interested in the subject matter — appear to lack curiosity and/or being overcautious beyond all measure. I mean, they are best suited to do that kind of experiments — they have all the instrumentation, all the experimental material, all the knowledge about BBs and their behavior — and nobody was curious enough as to say "Wow! That's so cool! I have to try it!! (Well, not in the field setting of course, but still...)"; it's us puny engineers who have to do it without all of the above; and not only the aforementioned professionals offer help and guidance, but rather they attempt to talk us out of our experiments, to the point of reporting us to feds. Hmmmm.... (Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory... Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory... Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory...)

  96. theyareoutthere

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    BBF, do you really think what you said below? Have you read this site's FAQS? There is a lot of information there.

    P.S. I find it highly... suspicious amusing that professionals — the ones who are supposed to be most interested in the subject matter — appear to lack curiosity and/or being overcautious beyond all measure. I mean, they are best suited to do that kind of experiments — they have all the instrumentation, all the experimental material, all the knowledge about BBs and their behavior — and nobody was curious enough as to say "Wow! That's so cool! I have to try it!! (Well, not in the field setting of course, but still...)"; it's us puny engineers who have to do it without all of the above; and not only the aforementioned professionals offer help and guidance, but rather they attempt to talk us out of our experiments, to the point of reporting us to feds. Hmmmm.... (Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory... Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory... Must NOT draw a conspiracy theory...)

    Quote

  97. BBF

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    theyareoutthere - 4 minutes ago  » 
    BBF, do you really think what you said below? Have you read this site's FAQS? There is a lot of information there.

    Do you really want me to believe you do not understand what I'm talking about?

    In case you really do not: I'm talking about B. Bassiana experiments. Not seeing anything like that in the FAQ...

    No, seriously, I should stop posting here and let the readers decide whether I'm the idiot here or not.

  98. Nobugsonme

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    betty482 - 2 hours ago  » 
    My "assumption" statement was directed at nobugsonme (the host) when he stated, " Betty asked you about application and dilution. A reasonable assumption would be she's not planning to replicate your experiments in jars." If nobugsonme wants to know why I asked, he can ask me rather than making "resonable assumptions". I apologize for the confusion.

    betty482,

    My apologies for misunderstanding your intent. Though (and I say this with a smile) since you've assumed I'm male and that my name's David, I guess we're more than even?

    However, I also want to point out more seriously that my previous attempts to ask you questions directly have been completely ignored. Notably, as the site admin, I sent you a private message a week ago asking an important question related to your user accounts.

    You did not respond so then I alerted you to the private message as a courtesy a few days ago in this thread, and at that point you appear to have deleted it without replying.

    Now that I have your attention, please do privately respond to the PM I sent you. Thanks in advance.

    And by all means, I'm curious why you sought the advice above from BBF about this product. You can tell me in the PM if you were open to sharing.

    However, and BBF, this is addressed to you too: it doesn't matter why Betty was seeking advice about Mycotrol. My response would still be that you should not be giving advice about the off-label use of a product.

    Unlike you, BBF, I don't have any assumptions about why Mycotrol is labeled to be diluted as it is, but I can imagine there might be other reasons besides the ones you've speculated about.

    It's unfortunate that this thread has been marked by such a negative tone. I saw experts like EffeCi trying to engage with you -- indeed, offering help and guidance -- and being treated rudely in the end.

    It's pretty clear that unless someone endorses your ideas (including ones which are based on incorrect assumptions about bed bug behavior which others have pointed out), you won't listen to them.

    That's your prerogative, but it does not suggest that greater knowledge is your goal.

    Your insinuation that entomologists are not encouraging you to do off-label experiments with a product due to some kind of conspiracy theory is absurd.

    The implication that the pros here have any monetary benefit to gain from people using only labeled products to treat bed bugs is also ridiculous. David's in London, EffeCi's in Italy (both places very few of our readers live -- so how do they benefit?) Paul's in Atlanta, and gives DIY advice all the time -- clearly, not worried about running himself or his type out of business.

    I'm sorry you seem to misunderstand why the experts participate here and also why they challenged your (and Dave's) plans so enthusiastically. Understand that it isn't about you or people trying to keep you from doing such treatments. We're always conscious here of who else may be reading and considering replicating these experiments (and maybe doing something similar outside of jars in their homes).

    If you can't imagine why we'd be conscious of those potential experimenters, or worried about their safety, you haven't been reading about many of the unsafe methods people have tried to get rid of bed bugs over the years. And many of us have.

    I know you assume the product is completely safe for home use, in the long term, but as a scientist, you should realize you have no basis for this assumption and also that it's too soon to judge.

    I take issue with the terminology with which you've classified our caution, BBF, but am not interested in arguing about any of this further.

    Since the thread has degenerated to insulting the experts across the board and insinuating some kind of conspiracy, we've clearly gone beyond the shelf life of this particular topic and I'm shutting this thread down.


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