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There IS a nox-toxic bedbug killer with a 12 month residual available! [Va 88]

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  1. Magicguy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 13:20:34
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    Contrary to some concerns out in the ether, there IS an effective non-toxic (totally green) treatment for bedbugs that is safe at all levels, plus it can provide 12 months of continuous killing. This product is CimiGuard and is fairly new in the market. It has had an efficacy test conducted and the products claims of its killing power and residual effect have been verified. CimiGuard is not meant for the general consumer, but is aimed for the PCO so that it may be applied effectively to ensure success. This has been applied at hotels, homes and even hospitals with complete success. Application is applied on and around essentially “cracks and crevices” of furniture and baseboards as well as mattresses, bedding and curtains (no visual film is observed – but it is there!) It kills the bedbug within minutes of contact and the residual keeps killing for a year. You can even vacuum and do normal cleaning without losing its effectiveness. What gives you confidence in this product is that it is backed by quality research and testimonials by professionals and scientists.

  2. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 14:03:35
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    Hi MagicGuy,

    Google does not seem to be able to find a valid page for the American Academy of Entomological Sciences where you had this product tested. I wonder if you could possibly supply a link to them. I would live to check a few of the testing details and may also have a sample of snake oil for them to look at.

    You may also want to read the AUP about commercial posts and affiliations.

    David

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bedbug infestations in domestic and commercial settings. The patent numbers are GB2463953 and GB2470307.

    "Open minds find faster solutions"

    "Astral Entomologist - because so many people say my ideas are out of this world"
  3. NewBlood

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 14:31:23
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    Hrmm... I can't find that Academy anywhere...

    The certificate or response seems to go to 468 Shadowood Drive - that's the closest thing to an actual address I can find but that seems like a response to someone, rather than the address of this academy. I see no reviews or any information about the product being backed by any research of any kind save for that certificate. I think I'll remain in the 'disbelieving' crowd.

  4. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 14:37:14
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    Here are the labels and MSDS.
    cimiguard.com/MSDS.html

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  5. Magicguy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 15:53:06
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    To David and NewBlood -

    It is my understanding that the American Academy of Entomological Sciences is no longer active. Dr Jeffrey Brown is currently working as the Bureau Director of Entomology for the state of Mississippi, and as such he closed his business to avoid a conflict of interest. If you note the testimonial from an Orkin afflicate in Gainesville, FL he is a believer in the product where it was used very susccessfully.

    By the way I don't believe there is any snake oil involved. I also have read the AUP and I am not promoting CimiGuard, just making people aware of it as a course of treatment that could be of potential benefit to the industry.

  6. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 16:06:41
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    Hmmm I was in a rush earlier and forgot my old friend google earth:

    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=468%20Shadowood%20Drive%20Ridgeland%2C%20MS%2039157&psj=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

    It appears the American Academy of Entomological Sciences is location in a residential property. I wonder if it could be someone's house close to your own?

    I was trying to add a google flag to help others find it but will wait for your response and explanation.

    David

  7. Maeve

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 16:13:32
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    I checked this site out and found it to be very interesting. Thanks for the link! Off to do some research.

  8. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 16:32:35
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    I am still having trouble tracking the research back to a credible confirm able resource, but I see through google others have raised this before:

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/bedbugger/message/11376

    David

  9. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 19:17:07
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    Controveries aside, the label for this product indicates soybean oil as the active, with other ingredients; water, calcium silicate, aluminum sodium silicate, iron oxide, sodium sulfate, magnesium silicate, potassium sulfate, sodium benzoate and surfactants (detergent/emulsifier). I'm intrigued. What action do the individual ingredients have on BB, particularly the soy oil and the iron oxide? (I think I have a good idea as to the function of the silicates.) What function do they have to preserve each other (ie, keep the soy oil from going rancid)?

  10. Magicguy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 19:49:00
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    Cilecto -

    The following is a quote as to how CimiGuard works:

    "The primary active ingredient is a complex protein molecule technically categorized as "food" under FDA regulations. These protein molecules together with the other ingredients are under other protocols labeled as GRAS ingredients (Generally Regarded As Safe). The protein upon contact with the bed bug's waxy outer layer acts as an emulsifying agent as it reacts with the specific chemistry of this portion of the bed bug's body. It has the same effect on other insects such as American and German cockroaches, ants, fleas, carpet beetles, ticks and several others.

    Human beings and other mammals, such as your pets, do not have this same outer chemistry therefore, our product is inert. This is why it is nontoxic or may be commonly referred to as “organic". The silicate particles are jagged and of irregular shape and lodge in textile and fabrics when the water base liquid evaporates. Their jagged and irregular shapes cause them to become enmeshed. The kill is completed when the bed bug or other pest is introduced into the treated area and begins to crawl across the treated fabrics. As the bed bug proceeds it nudges the silicate particles which cause the emulsifying protein agent to spill onto the bed bug. Upon contact the emulsifying protein agent kills the bed bug much in the same way that the bacteria and virus are killed when the protein agent is employed in the medical application."

    I also know that you have to handle CimiGuard properly to ensure that it remains viable. That means it cannot freeze or get too hot (above 140 deg F) or it will lose its killing properties - all before application.

  11. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 21:54:06
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    Maeve - 5 hours ago  » 
    I checked this site out and found it to be very interesting. Thanks for the link! Off to do some research.

    Since it appears you know Magicguy personally, you could probably have exchanged this comment in person.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  12. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 21:56:08
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    Magicguy - 8 hours ago  » 

    It has had an efficacy test conducted and the products claims of its killing power and residual effect have been verified.

    And unless we have access to this efficacy test, we are going to ignore all claims of efficacy.

    Where did you obtain the test results, and why can't you direct us to those?

  13. Koebner

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Feb 2 2011 22:16:31
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    Since when did "organic" mean "non-toxic"?
    Have they done something to the periodic table when I wasn't looking?

    With that kind of grasp of chemistry/ English/ referencing, Magicguy's going to have to go some long way to convince me of his mojo.

  14. EffeCi

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    Thu Feb 3 2011 4:53:00
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    Since when did "organic" mean "non-toxic"?
    Have they done something to the periodic table when I wasn't looking?

    LOL

  15. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Feb 3 2011 6:50:34
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    EffeCi - 1 hour ago  » 

    Since when did "organic" mean "non-toxic"?
    Have they done something to the periodic table when I wasn't looking?

    LOL

    Did you not get the memo from the Universal Academy of periodic table studies they decided it was about time to re-write the laws of physics again.

    I had the memo but googled earthed the PO Box to a dumpster in an alley in Vegas and decided not to sign up.

    David

  16. spideyjg

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    Thu Feb 3 2011 9:36:59
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    These snake oil hucksters always boast about the efficacy tests yet can't seem to produce one for review.

    Jim

  17. Magicguy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 3 2011 9:48:08
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    The efficacy report is readily available to anyone going on the CimiGuard site and I had thought that those interested would have explored and found it, but since you haven't here is a link:

    cimiguard.com/AmerAcadEffStdy-Rpt02-09_v3.pdf

    As for its non-toxicity its ingredients meet the EPA's regulation with regard to active and inert ingredients and is considered Generally Regarded As Safe (GRAS). The active ingredient
    Soybean oil (as mentioned on the label) in its MSDS is organic.

    There appears to be a lot of energy being put on this subject to try to discredit it on the simple basis that you don't understand it or are not familiar with it. The fact is that it works! There has been lots of science put into this product and its manufacturing process is proprietary. What is does though is kill bedbugs and keeps on killing them for a long time! It offers the industry a "green" solution with a long lasting residual to keep killing. This is something of great benefit to the industry.

    If you have a legitimate basis for saying it doesn't work - let me here it. Skeptical (until proven to your satisfaction) is OK too.

  18. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 3 2011 10:30:24
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    Magic:

    My hunch is that a combination of silica and contact kill will work, but such a product is not novel or unique and hardly worth $300-500 for 6 ounces.

    Then, there's the issue of "netiquette". This is a forum of people who are passionate about the bed bug issue. We have industry and academic leaders contributing their time and effort to make it work. The host has imposed sensible rules of the road, and participants here follow them. You started this thread, presenting as a disintersted party who's just telling us what he's discovered, but seems to be way more involved in this venture. Site veterans, as well as people who actually pay to advertise here, don't like that.

  19. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Feb 3 2011 10:42:51
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    Hi,

    Are you 100% sure its organic, I seem to recall from my work in molecular biology about 10 years ago that 99% of the US Soybean crop was GM which would exclude it from Organic status?

    I would not say a lot of energy is being put into discrediting your statements the holes are actually very easy to spot.

    I am still however concerned that you may be in breach of the AUP given the detail in which you are familiar with the history of the trial data. Lets face it you seem to be the only one able to trace where the report came from.

    The board is open to new ideas but they do need to be based on scientific data and fact which is best acknowledged when it does not appear to come from someones garage.

    David

  20. spideyjg

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Feb 3 2011 11:23:42
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    cilecto - 50 minutes ago  » 
    Magic:
    My hunch is that a combination of silica and contact kill will work, but such a product is not novel or unique and hardly worth $300-500 for 6 ounces.

    To treat 1200 sq/ft?!?!?!?!?

    *speechless*

  21. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:20:28
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    spideyjg - 1 month ago  » 

    cilecto - 50 minutes ago  » 
    Magic:
    My hunch is that a combination of silica and contact kill will work, but such a product is not novel or unique and hardly worth $300-500 for 6 ounces.


    To treat 1200 sq/ft?!?!?!?!?
    *speechless*

    What does it cost to heat treat a 1200 square foot home? At least $1,200. National average price is $1 per square foot.

  22. KillerQueen

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:35:10
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    and you just pulled it back up =)

  23. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:47:03
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    I like the concept of an enzyme that hydrolyzes waxy esters. But there's a big gap between concept + Institute of Someone's Garage + trade secret, and a product I would be willing to actually pay for.

  24. ecopest_jeff

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    Tue Mar 29 2011 23:51:14
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    Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - 1 minute ago  » 
    I like the concept of an enzyme that hydrolyzes waxy esters. But there's a big gap between concept + Institute of Someone's Garage + trade secret, and a product I would be willing to actually pay for.

    Institute of Someone's Garage? That is nothing but arrogant presumption. Make some calls. Talk to real people. Ask questions. Get real answers. This forum is not the "be all" of bed bug product knowledge. Take responsibility and look into the product for yourself - don't just go by what I or anyone else on this forum posts here.

  25. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 0:27:48
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    Do please read the other posts on Vaxinate With 88/CimiGuard on this thread, but please do NOT post responses there.

    They will be deleted.

    (Helpful tip: you can hit "quote" on posts on that thread, copy the resulting code, and paste it in the reply box on this thread to quote in your responses. This is strongly encouraged.)

  26. ecopest_jeff

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 0:30:48
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    Will do!

  27. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Mar 30 2011 12:14:44
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    Hi,

    Sorry it is considered rude and outside of the AUP to post peoples personal details on the forum.

    I suspect that post will be deleted.

    David

  28. ecopest_jeff

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    Wed Mar 30 2011 12:23:20
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    I think it appropriate for this discussion, since there have been those who are trying to discredit the research without making any attempt to contact the person who actually did the research.

    Case in point: "I am still however concerned that you may be in breach of the AUP given the detail in which you are familiar with the history of the trial data (It's in the report and advertising material.). Lets face it you seem to be the only one able to trace where the report came from. (No one else seems to have tried very hard. ["I am still having trouble tracking the research back to a credible confirm able resource, but I see through google others have raised this before: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/bedbugger/message/11376 David" ]I googled it and easily found it.)

    "The board is open to new ideas but they do need to be based on scientific data and fact which is best acknowledged when it does not appear to come from someones garage. (Proven from the man's reply. His detailed information debunks anyone from saying that I made it up, as they can contact him directly.)

    David"

    Another case: "These snake oil hucksters always boast about the efficacy tests yet can't seem to produce one for review.

    Jim "

  29. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Mar 30 2011 12:27:09
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    Hi Jeff,

    Yes-- you can't post someone else's personal information. It's not really good to post an email from someone else either. We can't know if the individual wanted their email shared in this manner.

  30. ecopest_jeff

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    Wed Mar 30 2011 12:28:12
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    Good point. My apology, but I think you can see my point.

  31. Nobugsonme

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    ecopest_jeff - 1 hour ago  » 
    I think it appropriate for this discussion, since there have been those who are trying to discredit the research without making any attempt to contact the person who actually did the research.

    Perhaps people should restrict their comments to the contents of that efficacy report (linked above). Beyond that, I am not sure what can be gained by talking to the person who wrote it, unless anyone has questions.

    (Proven from the man's reply. His detailed information debunks anyone from saying that I made it up, as they can contact him directly.)

    I don't think anyone was questioning that the report was written by Dr. Brown. I do see people questioning whether "the American Academy of Entomological Sciences" exists and was made up of more than one person, and did not just exist at someone's home address. I am simply summarizing what I see above.

    Those are valid questions.

    Another case: "These snake oil hucksters always boast about the efficacy tests yet can't seem to produce one for review.
    Jim "

    jeff, if you go back and carefully read the discussion above, which happened before you ever posted on this site, you will see that Jim made his comment before the efficacy report link was provided.

    Moreover, if you stuck around a while, you'd see it is true that most products produced and labeled for bed bugs aren't accompanied by such tests.

    So, everyone else, let's talk about the efficacy data.

  32. ecopest_jeff

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    The data that I read says that bed bugs were killed within minutes of exposure to the treated surfaces, and that residual tests showed activity for up to 8 months. Finding dead insects on treated surfaces was secondary proof of residual activity to 8 months.

    I also found a paper by the same entomologist that showed his test of the VA 88 product on fabric material. It showed that, after proper application, 100% of the bed bugs died within 22 hours of contacting the treated material, compared to the control (untreated) material with no mortality in the same time period. Direct application of the VA 88 to the remaining nymphs and adults resulted in death within 3 to 5 minutes.

    Everything I have read shows the product to be effective with both contact and residual action. Yes, I would like to see more testing done, but I think the price point of the product is what is keeping interest down, and so without growing interest, studies are not being done - at least that is my guess. I know of a fellow PCO in Florida who will be testing the product in the "real world" by advertising for a bed bug infested home to be treated at no cost for product evaluation. I am asking him to document what he does and his findings. I will be happy to report those results when it takes place.

  33. bed-bugscouk

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    Hi Jeff,

    Setting other issues aside for a second. I have a question or two:

    If you think its so good why does your own website not mention that you use it in your services?

    If you believe it is still active after 8 months why do you recommend 6 monthly preventative treatments for bedbugs?

    Also:

    Did you know you are in a small group of people who will do preventative bedbug treatments? - most agree with the main entomologists who say its neither correct nor sensible.

    In the case of the formulation discussed its not the first time we have seen this list of ingredients. I actually seem to recall someone else launching something similar and running into issue enough that the company has changed direction into education.

    Sadly with bedbugs there is a lot of wild claims being made with very little lab or field data to back much of it up. Like most I am not really interested in lab data as anyone who studies insects knows the field is where it all happens.

    I do however think its noteworthy that these formulations are not supported in the EU as no data was submitted to support how they worked under the Biocide directive. Therefore I am completely free for any potential commercial bias and am just calling it how it appears when you do your research.

    I am sorry if you take offense at my writing style you would not be the first and I dare say will not be the last. Thankfully having kicked around this site for a rather long time I know I do more good than harm.

    David

  34. cilecto

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    ecopest_jeff - 17 hours ago  » 

    spideyjg - 1 month ago  » 

    cilecto - 50 minutes ago  » 
    Magic:
    My hunch is that a combination of silica and contact kill will work, but such a product is not novel or unique and hardly worth $300-500 for 6 ounces.


    To treat 1200 sq/ft?!?!?!?!?
    *speechless*

    What does it cost to heat treat a 1200 square foot home? At least $1,200. National average price is $1 per square foot.

    I find your comparison disingenuous. A $1200 thermal job requires minimal prep by client.

    I assume that you use this product. Here are your own prep instructions. Pretty classic and labor intensive for the client. http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/found-one-bed-bug#post-105108
    Then there's the PCO labor.

  35. ecopest_jeff

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    Fri Apr 1 2011 19:44:17
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    Let me answer some of this, and not necessarily in order:

    "If you believe it is still active after 8 months why do you recommend 6 monthly preventative treatments for bedbugs?"

    I don't. I recommend treating 2 times a year, or once every 6 months. Treating every 6 months allows an overlap of active residual protection.

    "Did you know you are in a small group of people who will do preventative bedbug treatments? - most agree with the main entomologists who say its neither correct nor sensible."

    We are learning all the time. I am willing to take the chance and try it. I did the same when roach baits were coming out - laughed at by other PCO's. Look who is baiting now? I took a chance, and it paid off. Willing to do the same here.

    "I do however think its noteworthy that these formulations are not supported in the EU as no data was submitted to support how they worked under the Biocide directive."

    Means absolutely nothing to me. I don't work in the EU, and my customers are not in the EU, so what happens with regard to the EU is not my concern.

    "Like most I am not really interested in lab data as anyone who studies insects knows the field is where it all happens."

    That is where I am working - in the field. If the product fails, then it fails. Time will tell. So far, so good, but again, we are just seeing the increase start here. If it continues to work, I will be the one providing the service with that product, waiting for others to catch up.

    "If you think its so good why does your own website not mention that you use it in your services?"

    They don't pay me to market their product, so why should I mention the product? If you will notice, I do not list any product by name. I do list that I use a bio repellent for rodents, but again, they don't pay me to advertise their product, so I don't. I am not like all the other "product pushers" with product logos all over my advertising. (I pay them for their products, and if they want me to advertise their product, they should pay me - at least that is how most advertising works. Companies pay others to advertise their products. Pesticide manufacturers have a lot of PCO's advertising their products for free - they are losing money, looks like to me.)

    Products come and go. This one may as well. Time will tell. But you will not ever see it's logo on my website, even if it becomes the cure-all. I sell services, not products. I use products in my services at times, but I am not in the business of chemical application, like many are. I AM in the business of pest management, and that can often be accomplished without applying a single drop of pesticide - depending, of course on the pest and the situation. I have a colleague who reports that he is controlling some bed bug infestations using no product except an IGR aerosol. It can be done. It IS being done in the field. It's the real world that counts, as you alluded to, and so if the product continues to work in the field, I will provide a "green" service (using a "green" product) that will provide residual control that current "green" treatments do not provide.

    But, hey - to each their own. As long as it is working, I will continue to use it.

  36. ecopest_jeff

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    Fri Apr 1 2011 19:55:48
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    Oh, and I won't debate the cost for the product. I, too, think the price is outrageous, and I don't have to pay "$300-$500 for 6 ounces". But many homeowners think $1,200 and higher is outrageous to kill their bed bugs, too, especially when that's a one-time service with no ongoing protection. It costs less to treat for termites (which will damage your home - bed bugs do not) and you get a year's guarantee with that.

  37. Nobugsonme

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    Fri Apr 1 2011 23:59:15
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    jeff,

    They don't pay me to market their product, so why should I mention the product? If you will notice, I do not list any product by name. I do list that I use a bio repellent for rodents, but again, they don't pay me to advertise their product, so I don't.

    Fair enough, but you did kind of suggest someone find a PCO who uses this product in another thread, which is how we got to having this conversation.

    Anyway, a few questions:

    How long have you been applying this product?

    As for your preventive spraying, how would one know if it was working? You'd have to know if a bed bug was brought home, right?

  38. djames1921

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Apr 2 2011 17:18:09
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    Looked at the research info from the web site. The proof of residual activity is that it glows under a blacklight after 8 months and that dead insects were found around the area after 8 months, no mention was made of dead bed bugs being found after 8 months. The finding of dead bugs near the area where something was sprayed 8 months ago is not a good residual activity test, neither is the fact that it glows. If I go down into my basement and look near my baseboards which have never been sprayed I will find lots of dead spiders and other critters. I was looking for the test that said " sprayed the product on a piece of cloth, let it sit for 8 months, put healthy bed bugs on it and a certain percentage died which was signicantly more than the control cloth sprayed with water after 20 reps." That was not in the efficacy document from the website. Plus it would be nice to see a nonpartisan university researcher name on the study.

  39. ecopest_jeff

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    Thu Apr 21 2011 16:44:54
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    Been away for a while - busy time.

    I just recently started using the product, as I just recently was made aware of it, so no, I have not had months of use under my belt. However, in my research I have been talking with many other formulators and such, and all are telling me the same thing - soybean oil - in fact almost ANY food grade oil - will dissolve the waxy coating on bed bugs and other insects like cockroaches, and the silicates mixed with it will provide residual kill for newly hatched nymphs. Since it is not my product, I cannot ask for a researcher to test it for the company - that is their responsibility, and I can only hope that they will do so. I am aware of a similar product in development that is going to be presented to a university for testing. I can't wait to see those results and see if it will cost less.

    As for preventive treatment success, it would have to be done like any other post treatment inspection - rely on passive or active monitors, or have a K9 inspection done. Unless someone develops an effective electronic bed bug sniffer.

  40. contessabugs

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    Wed Jun 27 2012 15:57:24
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    Are there any updates for VA 88? I was told about this from a fellow pco. Was wondering what results that those using it are having. Pricing, treatment protocol, customer acceptance, etc. Has anyone had to retreat after offering the guarantee? Thanks.

  41. cilecto

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Jun 27 2012 17:35:38
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    It seems to be an oil/silica mix, so anything that applies to oil/silica mixes (like that well-known cedar product) should likely apply to this.

  42. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Jun 27 2012 17:38:47
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    Contessabugs,
    I got the impression you were a cedar oil fan.
    Changing away from that?

  43. contessabugs

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    Mon Jul 2 2012 22:06:09
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    Nobugsonme - 5 days ago  » 
    Contessabugs,
    I got the impression you were a cedar oil fan.
    Changing away from that?

    I am always looking for and open to new products. This seems interesting because company is offering a 1 year guarantee and will pay for product if retreatments are necessary. No one else is willing to backup their product like this...So I am going to try it out.

  44. contessabugs

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    Tue Jul 3 2012 19:49:19
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    ecopest_jeff - 1 year ago  » 
    Been away for a while - busy time.
    I just recently started using the product, as I just recently was made aware of it, so no, I have not had months of use under my belt.

    Any updates Jeff?

  45. Tessy

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Jul 4 2012 12:49:40
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    Very interesting....would be willing to let any PCOs in Texas come to my house and use to test it-free of charge as Jeff's colleague in FL was doing...any takers?
    Seriously, would be nice to see any updates

  46. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Wed Jul 4 2012 19:42:21
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    contessabugs - 23 hours ago  » 

    ecopest_jeff - 1 year ago  » 
    Been away for a while - busy time.
    I just recently started using the product, as I just recently was made aware of it, so no, I have not had months of use under my belt.
    Any updates Jeff?

    Ecopest_Jeff has not logged in in a year. You can see this information by looking at his profile.

  47. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Jul 4 2012 19:50:05
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    ecopest_jeff - 1 year ago  » 

    As for preventive treatment success, it would have to be done like any other post treatment inspection - rely on passive or active monitors, or have a K9 inspection done. Unless someone develops an effective electronic bed bug sniffer.

    Ecopest_jeff may not come back to see this but for the record, and at the risk of goving this thread more attention than it may deserve, my question wasn't really answered here.

    If you apply the product as a "preventive measure" and someone doesn't ever experience bed bugs, it does not mean the product worked.

    If a k9 does not alert or an active or passive monitor catches no bed bugs, you have no way of knowing these "preventive treatments" did anything.

  48. P Bello

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    Wed Jul 4 2012 21:56:04
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    PLEASE STOP !

    Ask the following questions:

    > Can we see the university lab published data on the product?

    Manufacturers of products that claim university lab testing yet cannot provide a copy of actual published data do so for a reason.

    > Compare/contrast:

    Ask any manufacturer's rep of a global/basic manufacturer (i.e. AMVAC, BASF, Bayer, FMC, MGK, Syngenta, etc.) for such published data and the will gladly supply you with a significant volume of data. And, such data will have been the results from trials conducted with credible, well known sources.

    I am in the process of conducting additional trials with certain products and will let you all know the results as soon as completed.

    In the meanwhile, use products of known and established efficacy performance.

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

    As a consulting entomologist I provide services for entities such as property managers, health/housing/emergency depts, schools, hospitality/resort/cruise industry, homeowners, food service, retail, pest professionals & product manufacturers. I recommend only efficacious methodologies, products and equipment. Professional relations have included Actisol, AMVAC, Atrix, BASF, Bayer, Catchmaster, FMC, GMT, Eaton, MattressSafe, Nisus, ProTeam, Rockwell, Syngenta & Woodstream. No compensation for product sales occurs. As inventor of Knight Safe bed bug sleep tent provides a royalty.
  49. Tessy

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    Wed Jul 4 2012 22:36:39
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    I'm glad y'all are testing different things...seriously though, if anyone wants to do a field test, my home in Texas is available

  50. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Jul 5 2012 4:41:52
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    Tessy - 6 hours ago  » 
    I'm glad y'all are testing different things...seriously though, if anyone wants to do a field test, my home in Texas is available

    I think someone is looking for test sites for a subdued lighting device, you could volunteer for that one.

    David

  51. Tessy

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    Thu Jul 5 2012 7:37:06
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    Really....is there some chemical somewhere along with the subdued lighting because I'm reading the post on the forum about it and how many others say its ineffective; and now that it's a little later in the morning and the brain is kicking in, I believe they're right. I remember sleeping with a light on and them still coming out after a couple days.

  52. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Jul 5 2012 8:27:46
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    Hi Tessy,

    No its just the light, its amazing I am just shocked that it has not solved the worlds problems yet.

    On the subject of non tested products in your home please think about things before making such an offer, there is your health to consider and that of your family. There is a good reason why products need to have health and safety data as well as efficacy data because lets face it becoming ill or dying is not a preferred solution to bedbugs.

    I know people can get desperate at times but please never be that desperate that you fall victim to these idiots.

    David

  53. cilecto

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    Thu Jul 5 2012 8:49:56
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    FWIW, Cimiguard does not appear to be actively in business. Most of the links above fail over to "default" pages on Intuit's "Homestead.com" web site building service.

  54. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Jul 5 2012 10:11:12
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    cilecto - 1 hour ago  » 
    FWIW, Cimiguard does not appear to be actively in business. Most of the links above fail over to "default" pages on Intuit's "Homestead.com" web site building service.

    Given that the product website is no longer active, I am now closing this thread.

  55. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Aug 14 2013 22:17:20
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    I am re-opening this thread for discussion based on the fact that

    PCT Online published an article in Dec. 2012 by Dr. Jeffrey Brown, Kate McGovern and Jeff McGovern, which describes the one-year efficacy study: After the Treatment.

  56. P Bello

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    Wed Aug 14 2013 22:36:09
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    Dear NB,

    With all due respect, opening this thread solely on that basis is questionable at best.

    This product contains silicates and soy bean oil. We are not trying to make a salad but actually kill bed bugs.

    Folks, If you're looking for an extremely over priced product that does not work nearly as well as products that cost just 1/10th it's cost than this product is for you !

    And, if you're looking for a product that has been tested by at least two well known University Entomology Departments yet the data has not been published (because the data suxdotcom) then this is definitely the product for you.

    As such, for the benefit of the general public, the greater good and the security of the bed bug nation, please re-close this thread before we get folks interested in this crap for no good reason ! ! !

    Thanks much ! paul b.

  57. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Thu Aug 15 2013 2:16:21
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    P Bello - 3 hours ago  » 
    Dear NB,
    With all due respect, opening this thread solely on that basis is questionable at best.
    ....
    As such, for the benefit of the general public, the greater good and the security of the bed bug nation, please re-close this thread before we get folks interested in this crap for no good reason ! ! !

    Hi Paul,

    If you scroll up, you'll see the thread was closed not as a commentary on the product itself but because the product website had disappeared and it all seemed a bit murky.

    However, given that the product is being promoted in the trade press, it seems like permitting people to have a discussion about it is worthwhile.

    It's not unusual to update a thread when some sort of development occurs.

    "Re-opening a thread," or even updating the information in it, does not constitute -- as you seem to be suggesting-- an endorsement of the product under discussion, nor does it make people interested in a product.

  58. P Bello

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    Thu Aug 15 2013 6:34:10
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    Understood, however, I just don't wanna rehash this sh#t over and over again as I find myself having to do each time this multi-headed hydra seems to re-emerge. It's like playing a long term drawn out game of whack a mole.

    As such, here's my official "rant" position on this:

    > It is outrageously priced for what it actually is and is being sold for as much as $410 per finished gallon. That's a finished gallon that you're ready to spray. Any of the top three current bed bug products are being sold for about $90 per quart and these products are mixed at about one ounce per gallon. Do the math, that's about $3 per finished gallon and these products actually work !

    > One year residual? Don't make me laugh ! And, eff you very much !

    > At best, this product is a contact killer. Note that we can get contact kill with dawn dishwashing liquid too.

    > Residual activity? Not so much.

    > I have personally tested this crap at least three times and have worked with three credible labs who have done the same. I know the data. To say that this stuff works "like sh#t" would be an insult to "genuine feces" everywhere because we can at least use manure as a viable fertilizer !

    > Now, as my Uncle Henry would say, and he's an ex-Marine: "Anyone who tells people this stuff is any good should be kicked in the ass till his nose bleeds !" (Biologically/physiologically speaking, that takes a long time kids.)

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

  59. Alicew234

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    Thu Aug 15 2013 6:50:57
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    Ah! I got up and checked the forum today and my heart leapt with joy- only to be crushed with disappointment. The only comment I have is that the "this isn't going to work" comments came awfully close to the original post. The sense I get is that David....and please, hear this in the meekest, most respectful tone....is not open to the idea that something new might work.

    Forty minutes after the post you called it snake oil while asking for studies that would validate it....which makes it sound -and this may not be the case - but it sounded like you had no data on the product to use when classifying it as a snake oil.

    It is probably years of seeing people shell out money for snake oil that makes you so quick to nay say. However, it would be much stronger if you replied more along the lines of P Bello with "I've tried this for year" or "I've studied the ingredients" or something. You are coming across as a bit of an Eyore. (Don't block me from the site I love it and I have no friends left cause people are scared of my bugs!)

  60. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 1 year ago
    Thu Aug 15 2013 7:19:28
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    Hi Alicew234,

    Far from it.

    I am more than open to new ideas working I am just a "design a different weapon rather than a heavier hammer" kind of guy.

    In this case I was already in possession of the fact that it had been tested by someone I trusted and was known to be a contact only killer at best. Further investigation lead me to the data on Dr Jeffrey Brown and the American Academy of Entomological Sciences and once you start down that vain of gold even the blind can see the truth, we are talking about an advocate of just about every half-baked brainless "cure-all" the bedbug world has ever seen.

    In fact my point of reference is about 10 years of being offered money to endorse scam products from people that are currently being investigated by the FTC for the very scams I have pointed out.

    Sadly with regards PCT this is not uncommon. They will publish just about anything so long as they can get a few column inches of adverts sold alongside it. Oddly enough as a magazine they have never covered what I consider to be the "good" technologies and as far of getting them to consider anything other than the "toxic tit" they suckle from good luck.

    Yes I can be blunt and vocal at times but the reality is that this stance comes from being the first to specialise in the world. I have seen an industry develop around me and not all of it is pleasant, morally correct or ethical. Yes I bust balls from time to time but that is because unless someone stands up and draws attention to some of this the world will slowly but surely end up as a toxic soup.

    For the record in the last 2 years we have taken on-board 5 new products or approaches and only 1 of them was chemical based which is the one we use the least. In fact I am hoping that by the time my company reaches its 10th birthday we will only offer non-chemical services as standard and that chemical applications will be reserved only for certain cases.

    Don't worry I would certainly not suggest you be banned for raising those points unlike some others I am more than open to freedom of expression and the exchange of ideas, in fact in my spare time I do human rights activism work, in fact one of the best ways to describe my personal philosophy is that I will defend anyone right to burn a flag but will also be the first to lambast someone for being narrow minded enough to burn a book.

    I know its hard to catch up and read all 7,500+ of my posts and that most people will just wait till the conclusion and read the book when I get around to writing it, especially the tribute section to the troops of the bedbug airborne division.

    David

  61. P Bello

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    Thu Aug 15 2013 8:01:55
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    But the point is this stuff suxdotcom.

    David has said it, I've said it and anyone of consequence that has the nerve in the BB world has said so as well.

    The fact that a magazine runs an ad plus an article on it does not make it a credible product.

    Product performance does, not the hype nor "advertorials" thereof.

    And even the PJB M8 3000 backs this up too !

    Have a nice day ! paul b.

  62. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Aug 15 2013 9:00:33
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    P Bello - 2 hours ago  » 

    > Residual activity? Not so much.
    > I have personally tested this crap at least three times and have worked with three credible labs who have done the same.

    Correct me if I am wrong, Paul, but if the thread wasn't reopened, we would never have heard that from you. Your posts above did not mention your tests of the product and that's helpful for readers.

    No doubt this thread will go dormant again momentarily.

  63. P Bello

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    Thu Aug 15 2013 9:15:49
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    Yeah, you're right, you caught me at a weak moment and I just decided to "put it out there" so this crap is done, over, finite, etc. !

    It is what it is !

    And, to everyone else:

    1) If a guy comes up to you holding a jug of this stuff and starts telling you how good it is, offers you a great deal and/or otherwise goes into his sales pitch . . .

    2) Don't hesitate . . .

    3) Don't even think about it . . .

    4) Just give him a kwik kick, note that a sharply raised knee will produce a similar effect, right in the chops !

    5) Then, as he squirms on the sidewalk in pain, while you're walking away . . .

    6) Don't forget to say: F#%k you very much and have a nice day !

    Do it for me and everyone who has bed bugs, thanks much ! pjb

  64. Nemo

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    This makes so much not sense. The active ingredient is soybean oil, but it's also a protein. That's like saying my car is built mostly from metal, and by that I mean wood. These two things are not alike. And then there's this:

    So how does this work? AAES has been asked several times about the mode of action of the proteins, and this is the staff’s understanding — the protein complexes uncouple electron transfers and increase transmembrane leak of the protons in the membrane of the waxy layer of the insect. This is similar to standard chemical uncoupling described in organic chemistry. In plain English: the waxy layer is breaking down (in some cases rapidly), creating a hole.

    What??? This makes no sense. Usually when we're talking about a transmembrane potential and proton shuttling, we're talking about mitochondria. These are organelles inside the cell of the insect's epidermis. The epidermis secretes the cuticle, which is made of a meshwork of chitin fibers, proteins, and waxes. The cuticle is non-living--it has no cell membranes, so it can have no transmembrane potential. Either the mystery protein gloop is acting on the nonliving cuticle or it's acting on the living cells underneath.

    Now fine, maybe it could work by blocking mitochondrial function, which would mean that the insect's epidermis would die, which would probably result in death from dehydration. But in that case, why would it be specific to insects, as the guy pushing it claims? The original claim is that it targets the cuticle specifically, meaning it is safe for mammals like us. That is at odds with this hand-waving, sciency-sounding explanation. As an example, an excellent agent for decoupling proton shuttling is cyanide.


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