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[One person's opinion] about Diatomaceous Earth

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  1. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Oct 16 2011 14:03:17
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    Yesterday I did a ton of research on Diatomaceous Earth. A TON. I didn't just stick to sources on the internet. I went to a health food store and spoke with people on the benefits of DE and potential safety hazards. There are virtually none.

    All the fear surrounding DE is absolutely, totally blown out. Yes, Pool Grade DE is dangerous and a known cancerogenic and still, only known for cancer in long term exposure: such as working with it for many years. It is so different than natural diatomaceous earth, that is should have another name.

    The only potential downside to human or any mammal is breathing in large amounts of DE. However, you will not get cancer from breathing in food grade DE. You will not get silicosis from breathing in Food Grade DE. You will not get asthma from breathing in food grade DE. It is no more dangerous than breathing in talc powder -- which I would argue is actually worse for your health.

    Diatomaceous Earth is so safe that people eat it! It's highly recommended for cleansing out your digestive system and many people report increased energy levels after taking it. Some centenarians swear by it and attribute diatomaceous earth as part of the reason they've reached 100 years old and beyond. If you're still afraid of DE, listen to this: the odds are extremely high that you eat DE without knowing it. It's in your food! It's used to ward off pests from grain storage so it's likely in your bread, your pasta, cereal and tons of other food. If you have cats, you and your pets breath in diatomaceous earth every day: it's in kitty litter!

    Now, here is this safe substance that kills 100% of bed bugs that walk on it. Many will die within a few days, all of them by the 10th day. Your job is to ensure that they walk on it. That's it!

    I needed to get that off my chest because here's a very viable solution to get rid of bed bugs and people are avoiding it. DE could very well be the silver bullet -- or a part of it -- that we've been searching for but all the fear mongering around is keeping many people away from it.

    With all that said, last night I slept on my bed. My bed frame is completely dusted in DE. My mattress is powdered in DE around it's border and in the folds. I slept on it. I woke up knowing that those little vampires have days left to live. They're almost certainly covered in DE. Over the next few days, all of them will come to feed. I'm their only source so they will have to cross my mattress to get to me.

    In fact, I'm so certain of the safety of DE, that if these bugs persist by somehow avoiding to cross the powder on my bed and mattress, I will be dusting up my skin with DE before going to bed. Now some of you are about to call me crazy and irresponsible for suggesting such a thing, but go do your own research and you'll come to the same conclusion. Bed bugs are as ancient as our own human history can find. Tribal humans used to dust themselves to get rid of all sorts of pests on their skin. Before the concept of soap, humans would clean themselves with dust. Diatomaceous Earth has been used for thousands of years this way.

    Diatomaceous Earth on its own is unlikely to be the most effective tool to kill off a serious infestation, specially if there are several people living in your home or other hosts such as pets and neighbours that share your walls. However, DE will always be in my tool kit from now on. Get a bed bug knowledgeable PCO in to do their best to eliminate the bed bugs and then use DE (consult with them first) to eliminate any stragglers. Because DE takes a while to kill, the bugs will still be laying eggs while you wait for it to work. However, if the bugs must get dusted in DE to reach you, they will all be dead within 2 or 3 generations because nymphs will die before being able to lay eggs.

    This forum has been extremely helpful to me in dealing with the bugs, in no small manner in dealing with the psychological effects of this situation, but I feel that there needs to be more facts about diatomaceous earth, rather than so much cautionary advice. Make a bold point of differentiating Food Grade and Pool Grade, then go to down in evangelizing Diatomaceous Earth as the extremely effective anti-bed bug cure that it is.

    [Admin note: while diatomaceous earth can be a useful tool in fighting bed bugs, even food grade/freshwater DE is often used in a manner which may be unsafe or ineffective. Research indicates that all DE is not equally effective. It certainly is not a silver bullet. Please read our FAQ on DE and buggyinsocal's detailed and helpful response below and consider seeking the advice of a pest management professional before you implement its use.]

  2. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Oct 16 2011 16:25:09
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    Talk to a respitory specialist about the effects of airbourne particles before dusting yourself.

    As a former fabric store cutter, I can tell you that even cotton fibers can be dangerous when inhaled during cutting. It's known that mill workers and others dealing with these fine particles can end up with cotton lung. This is when the various surface areas in the lung are covered with those particles and the actual amount of surface area available for breathing is **permanently** reduced. It causes emphysema like symptoms. Another version (caused bu coal dust) is known as black lung.

    I can't imagine that a substance that can cut up bug body's would not harm my lungs in a similar way as cotton particles.

  3. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 0:20:00
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    I'm not advocating inhaling clumps of DE. The truth of the matter is that you inhale all sorts of dust everyday. Look at the dust that collects on your furniture, look at the soot (toxic stuff from cars) that builds up on uncleaned glass in a busy city, metal ceiling slats in subway stations (thats metal dust from the train's breaks). If you smoke, don't even get me started (and even if you don't you are almost certain to be exposed to real toxic chemicals from second hand smoke). Now think of how much goes through your respiratory system all your life.

    Your nose and throat are natural filters that prevent a lot of this stuff from reaching your lungs and your body has an instinctive reaction to anything that makes it through: coughing and sneezing.

    This all to say that food grade DE is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Even pool grade DE -- the stuff that causes cancer -- is shown to be harmful if you're exposed to it for extended periods. I wouldn't want to inhale even a particle of that but it goes to show you how overblown the fear of FOOD GRADE DE is.

    Yes, breathing in any dust is not healthy, but take precautions not to unnecessarily inhale DE and you have nothing to worry about. Being paranoid about food grade DE dust entering your lungs means you have to wear an oxygen mask at home, in the streets, in the subway, in your place of work. What is really harmful is advocating against using diatomaceous earth that is proven to kill off bedbugs with 100% efficacy once it contacts them.

    I've slept in a bed and bedroom surrounded by DE for 3 nights now. Guess what? No bites. No fecal or blood spots. If god forbid I go through this again, DE will be my very first line of defense.

  4. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 0:55:49
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    I would still advocate to someone looking to try this as a solution to speak with their doctor. There are differences between types of particles and some are more dangerous altogether. It's worth checking on possible side effects before trying.

    I slept in dust and I felt that it hurt me worse than the dirt dust.

  5. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 4:00:01
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    BuggerBeater,

    The post you made above is passing on incomplete information in a manner that runs a very strong risk of putting the health of people--often sleep deprived, stressed out, and, therefore, extra vulnerable people-- in danger. The information above is loaded with inconsistencies and misreadings of the information.

    I will not even begin to discuss the very real problems in terms of bias and sample size that basing your research on talking to someone in a health food store constitutes when it comes to advising other people about how to perform do it themselves pest control. My gold standard for research is looking at up to date peer-reviewed articles, and the local health food store salesperson falls far short of that standard.

    It's very late, and I have to be at work early tomorrow, so I can't go point by point in the detail this post requires, but for starters, I hope anyone reading the above posts will consider the following:

    1. While I haven't been on the boards much lately, I have not seen anyone responsible here claim that DE exposure leads to cancer. DE is not a carcinogen, and I've never seen anyone reputable here ever suggest that DE causes cancer.

    2. If people look at the peer-reviewed research on DE, it's pretty clear that in some unknown subset of the population, long term exposure to even amorphous as opposed to crystalline DE can cause silicosis. (Please note again: silicosis does not equal cancer.)

    3. The studies that found that exposure to amorphous DE was less dangerous found this because they manufactured in labs their own pure version of amorphous DE. Commercially available DE was not used in the studies because amorphous DE generally contains a certain percentage of crystalline DE. As a result, they had to manufacture pure amorphous DE to get accurate results.

    Unless you're a university lab or professional pest controller level of manufacturer of your own amorphous DE, you're going to be exposed to a certain minimum percentage of crystalline DE if you're using the amorphous stuff.

    (Amorphous=food grade while crystalline=pool grade. )

    4. Even the studies that suggest that amorphous DE isn't as dangerous as the crystalline stuff clearly advocate the use of personal protective equipment for the people who are mining DE.

    Applying DE in the manner that BuggerBeater suggests is going to expose people frequently to airborne DE which is decidedly not in compliance with how it's meant to be used.

    5. The oft-mentioned health-food store line about the safety of DE in food is absolutely irrelevant to its safety in terms of inhalation. There are many substances that are not dangerous when encountered through one means of contact that are absolutely dangerous in another. I use rubbing alcohol on my skin all the time; it's perfectly safe when applied topically. But consuming it is another matter. Ingesting small amounts of food grade DE with food isn't dangerous; inhaling DE can be. Dusting your body with even food grade DE is exposing yourself to a certain amount of pool grade type stuff.

    6. Silicosis has no known cure and few effective remedies. I suspect that many people would prefer not to be exposed to a substance that can cause health problems for which medical treatment has no effective treatment methodology.

    7. For people with pre-existing breathing issues--asthma, COPD, etc.--exposure even to the less dangerous food grade type may have consequences that BuggerBeater and the local health food guy are unaware of.

    8. Overtreatment of a residence with DE is likely to be ineffective in treating bed bugs. The bugs will simply avoid piles of the stuff.

    9. Anyone following the sort of advice BuggerBeater is advocating here should be aware that the applying DE in the way described here may lengthen the amount of time it would take to get a professional into your residence when the treatment fails. Many PCOs, who obviously get higher exposures over time than clients, will not treat a residence that has been self-treated with DE until the DE is cleaned up. This is also true for most dog/handler teams. It seems to me that people who are giving unbiased, even-handed, deeply-researched advice will make board readers familiar with as many of the possible consequences of a strategy as possible, including all the pros and all the cons of a particular method. I do not see any mention above of the very real need to clean all the DE up in the event of a treatment failure that necessitates the hiring of a pro.

    10. If modern science has taught us anything at all, it's that in situations in which resistance to substances is an issue or situations in which complex behaviors and variables are at work, there is almost never a silver bullet solution.

    DE absolutely can be a useful tool in the fight against bed bugs. BuggerBeater's post adds no new information for those of us who've followed the problem for a long time. Every pro-DE argument above has been made--and debunked as being at least slightly more complicated than the manner in which is it presented above--before. They've all, in fact, been debunked many times over before.

    Using the right kind of DE in the right places while wearing proper personal protective equipment is safe. The methods describes above do not meet those criteria. Caveat emptor applies as much to advice as to products.

  6. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 7:08:03
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    I shall bookmark this response. There's a lot of handy info here.

    Thank you for sharing the flax seed story. I would have lost my mind over my 7 grain bread this weekend.

  7. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 7:32:55
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    Like many things in life the DE message is simple. Less is more, if you can see it as thick lines or piles you are using it wrong.

    I am often amazed at the quantities used to treat areas which is why I prefer the aerosol formulation of it, you cant over apply in the same way as people do with shovels spoons.

    In rooms where the DE is applied to make it look like a winter wonderland there are health risks and concerns as you would find with all fine powders that have the ability to be breathed in as they eventually impede lung function.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bedbug infestations in domestic and commercial settings. The patent numbers are GB2463953 and GB2470307.

    "Astral Entomologist - because so many people say my ideas are out of this world"
  8. Koebner

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 9:06:47
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    Can we please have the title of this thread changed to; "A Personal Opinion on Diatomaceous Earth"?

  9. Sleepingwithvampbugs

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 9:26:39
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    BuggerBeater - 1 day ago  » 
    Yesterday I did a ton of research on Diatomaceous Earth. A TON. I didn't just stick to sources on the internet. I went to a health food store and spoke with people on the benefits of DE and potential safety hazards. There are virtually none.
    All the fear surrounding DE is absolutely, totally blown out. Yes, Pool Grade DE is dangerous and a known cancerogenic and still, only known for cancer in long term exposure: such as working with it for many years. It is so different than natural diatomaceous earth, that is should have another name.
    The only potential downside to human or any mammal is breathing in large amounts of DE. However, you will not get cancer from breathing in food grade DE. You will not get silicosis from breathing in Food Grade DE. You will not get asthma from breathing in food grade DE. It is no more dangerous than breathing in talc powder -- which I would argue is actually worse for your health.
    Diatomaceous Earth is so safe that people eat it! It's highly recommended for cleansing out your digestive system and many people report increased energy levels after taking it. Some centenarians swear by it and attribute diatomaceous earth as part of the reason they've reached 100 years old and beyond. If you're still afraid of DE, listen to this: the odds are extremely high that you eat DE without knowing it. It's in your food! It's used to ward off pests from grain storage so it's likely in your bread, your pasta, cereal and tons of other food. If you have cats, you and your pets breath in diatomaceous earth every day: it's in kitty litter!
    Now, here is this safe substance that kills 100% of bed bugs that walk on it. Many will die within a few days, all of them by the 10th day. Your job is to ensure that they walk on it. That's it!
    I needed to get that off my chest because here's a very viable solution to get rid of bed bugs and people are avoiding it. DE could very well be the silver bullet -- or a part of it -- that we've been searching for but all the fear mongering around is keeping many people away from it.
    With all that said, last night I slept on my bed. My bed frame is completely dusted in DE. My mattress is powdered in DE around it's border and in the folds. I slept on it. I woke up knowing that those little vampires have days left to live. They're almost certainly covered in DE. Over the next few days, all of them will come to feed. I'm their only source so they will have to cross my mattress to get to me.
    In fact, I'm so certain of the safety of DE, that if these bugs persist by somehow avoiding to cross the powder on my bed and mattress, I will be dusting up my skin with DE before going to bed. Now some of you are about to call me crazy and irresponsible for suggesting such a thing, but go do your own research and you'll come to the same conclusion. Bed bugs are as ancient as our own human history can find. Tribal humans used to dust themselves to get rid of all sorts of pests on their skin. Before the concept of soap, humans would clean themselves with dust. Diatomaceous Earth has been used for thousands of years this way.
    Diatomaceous Earth on its own is unlikely to be the most effective tool to kill off a serious infestation, specially if there are several people living in your home or other hosts such as pets and neighbours that share your walls. However, DE will always be in my tool kit from now on. Get a bed bug knowledgeable PCO in to do their best to eliminate the bed bugs and then use DE (consult with them first) to eliminate any stragglers. Because DE takes a while to kill, the bugs will still be laying eggs while you wait for it to work. However, if the bugs must get dusted in DE to reach you, they will all be dead within 2 or 3 generations because nymphs will die before being able to lay eggs.
    This forum has been extremely helpful to me in dealing with the bugs, in no small manner in dealing with the psychological effects of this situation, but I feel that there needs to be more facts about diatomaceous earth, rather than so much cautionary advice. Make a bold point of differentiating Food Grade and Pool Grade, then go to down in evangelizing Diatomaceous Earth as the extremely effective anti-bed bug cure that it is.

    Where do I buy it?

  10. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 12:32:29
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    Added to original post above:

    [Admin note: while diatomaceous earth can be a useful tool in fighting bed bugs, even food grade/freshwater DE is often used in a manner which may be unsafe or ineffective. Research indicates that all DE is not equally effective. It certainly is not a silver bullet. Please read our FAQ on DE and buggyinsocal's detailed and helpful response below [above, in this case] and consider seeking the advice of a pest management professional before you implement its use.]

    Normally, I try to avoid editing people's post titles, but I think Koebner's recommendation is very appropriate here.

    Oh, and Sleepingwithvampbugs, please note that when you quote someone else's entire post (as you did above), and it's a long one, you're making it hard for people who are reading on phones or other small browsers, who have to scroll and scroll through something they've already read.

    I don't intend to single you out -- lots of people do this -- but I hope this message may reach some of them too.

    I can't actually see the purpose of your quoting more than a sentence of the above post in your response -- just enough to show people what you're responding to. It just takes a moment to delete the part of the quote you don't want to include (leaving the "blockquote" tags intact), but it is much appreciated by others.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  11. BarelyLiving2

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 13:22:34
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    David,
    Do you know how a person in the US could buy the aerosol de?

    I see it for sale in the UK and have made inquiries, but no luck. It doesn't seem like it could be something subject to regulations since we can buy de in a million different forms.

    Thanks for your time.

  12. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 14:05:02
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    BarelyLiving2 - 41 minutes ago  » 
    David,
    Do you know how a person in the US could buy the aerosol de?

    I have asked the manufacturers and will let you know what they say.

    David

  13. BarelyLiving2

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    Tue Oct 18 2011 22:00:07
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    Thanks!!

  14. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Oct 18 2011 22:37:44
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    Again, the over reaction to amorphous diatomaceous earth is present in the answers here. All of your arguments against DE are based on Crystaline DE, aka Pool Grade. There is no documented evidence of disease resulting from amorphous DE. If you could find any, please enlighten us.

    Given that your arguments are against Pool Grade DE, and I'm defending the safety of Food Grade, those arguments are completely and utterly based on false pretences. It's like saying: injecting an influenza virus is the same thing as injecting an anti-virus which is a dead influenza virus. They are two different things.

    2% is considered to be a safe level of crystalline silica. Food Grade DE contains no more than 0.5%, four times smaller than the minimum allowed. The percentage in the particular DE I'm using is 0.25%, eight times smaller. For perspective, the dangerous stuff, pool grade DE contains 70% crystalline silica.

    Now, if you're still concerned about dust entering the lungs, and you've somehow managed to ignore all my points in my original post about how cigarettes, soot in the city air and other dusts are far worse than DE, at least understand that your respiratory system is incredibly efficient at preventing and/or remediating dust entering your lungs. If any particles reach your lungs and are not eliminated via the safety systems present in your body, food grade DE is inert, not biological and one of the most unlikely particles to carry viruses or toxins that are harmful. It will be expelled eventually and does no harm in normal use.

    If you want to ignore the facts of human biology and the plentiful information available on this subject, then it is your loss because Food Grade DE is perfectly safe when handled normally and will kill bed bugs.

  15. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Oct 19 2011 0:09:37
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    Diatomaceous earth can be a useful tool in fighting bed bugs. To suggest it is more than that (you introduced the phrase "silver bullet" above), or that it is not dangerous if misused or potentially ineffective if misapplied or overapplied -- as it commonly is, according to what I can gather from reports here -- is incorrect.

    Even food grade/freshwater DE is often used in a manner which may be unsafe or ineffective. We are not talking about pool grade DE.

    For information on dangers to respiratory system, eyes, and skin, see the FAQ on DE for references on this including the CDC's Occupational Health Guideline for Amorphous Silica (PDF).

    I note that you yourself mention having worn a respiratory mask when working with the DE. That's a good thing, and exactly what the CDC and experts here who work with DE recommend.

    Research indicates that all DE (and by this I am referring exclusively to freshwater DE, the kind used to kill bed bugs) is not equally effective. There are links and references to this on the FAQ on DE also.

    Even the most effective types of DE will not be effective if your bed bugs don't walk across it. That's why knowing how to apply it is important. And even then, it is frequently not enough to solve someone's bed bug problem, at least not within a reasonable time frame.

    You note on other threads having had three PCO treatments over the course of a month and a half, before you started working with DE. I don't doubt those had a significant effect on the problem initially. I don't doubt your DE helped finish the job.

    No one is saying it isn't potentially a useful tool. We're saying it must be used carefully and appropriately, and that it isn't a miracle tool. People who buy a bunch and start liberally and inappropriately applying it (which we find people reporting quite frequently -- not surprising since some firms that shill the stuff make videos demonstrating inappropriate applications) are bound to be disappointed and have a hazardous materials situation to clean up.

  16. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Oct 19 2011 0:27:52
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    Nobugsonme - 4 minutes ago  » 

    Even food grade/freshwater DE is often used in a manner which may be unsafe or ineffective. We are not talking about pool grade DE.

    Re-read buggyinsocal's post. He repeatedly refers to silicosis as a consequence of breathing in DE. Given that amorphous DE does not cause silicosis, he is referring to the crystalline kind, pool grade.

    If you could please present any documented evidence that amorphous DE causes irreversible disease such as that buggyinsocal claims to occur, your point will have been made. As it stands, breathing in amorphous DE is no more dangerous than breathing in fine beach sand or flour while preparing a cake.

    As for misapplying -- no, I'm not clumping up mountains of DE in my bedroom. I've been applying it as a fine dusting in strategic locations that bugs will have to cross over to reach me while I sleep in my bed.

  17. AshamedandScratching

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 0:48:23
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    Are you a doctor?

    Are you a PCO?

    I've had both in my research disagree with you. Since this is their professional field, I will follow their wisdom on the subject. Physically, as a singer, I can feel the difference in my lungs since my exposure to misapplied DE. I cannot support the notes with the same amount of breath. I have no doubt that if that exposure had continued long term some of that loss may have become permanent. I remain hopeful I will recover with time and distance from DE.

    Keep in mind that not all people are just like you. Variations in age and health will affect their ability to recover and to heal.

    To anyone considering this type of DE use, please consult your doctor or specialist before starting.

  18. spideyjg

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 1:40:21
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    Blah blah blah,

    All we have asked is that people follow safety precautions to avoid breathing the dust in. I don't trust in this day of snake oil and hucksters selling anything to try an get a buck off BB victims that the DE will be true food grade.

    Standard protocol for PCOs when applying any dust is to wear a respirator. WTF qualifies you to tell people it is not needed.
    Locations to apply are based on efficacy and human safety. Again WTF qualifies you to say ignore that stuff!

    Nobody ever suffered an injury by following safety precautions.

    Did you research the people who have reported respiratory reactions here? There have been a fair number.

    Bottom line it is your choice. Err on the side of caution or not.

  19. buggyinsocal

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 1:55:52
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    If you could please present any documented evidence that amorphous DE causes irreversible disease such as that buggyinsocal claims to occur, your point will have been made.

    Well, there's this as far as proof goes.

    And then there are these guidelines from the CDC which specifically state what I said above: pure amorphous DE doesn't exist.

    I should note that those two links are in addition to the peer-reviewed study I linked to in the post above.

    And, also, just for the record--I'm not a he.

  20. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 2:03:40
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    BuggerBeater - 1 hour ago  » 

    Nobugsonme - 4 minutes ago  » 
    Even food grade/freshwater DE is often used in a manner which may be unsafe or ineffective. We are not talking about pool grade DE.

    Re-read buggyinsocal's post. He repeatedly refers to silicosis as a consequence of breathing in DE.

    Please re-read my most recent post again. I am not building on or elaborating on buggyinsocal's claims there.

    I did, however, provide you with evidence that the CDC considers DE dangerous if it is inhaled or if it makes contact with the eyes. Please read the CDC's Occupational Health Guideline for Amorphous Silica (PDF).

    As for misapplying -- no, I'm not clumping up mountains of DE in my bedroom. I've been applying it as a fine dusting in strategic locations that bugs will have to cross over to reach me while I sleep in my bed.

    Try to understand that we're not just talking about what you did. You may or may not have applied DE appropriately.

    However, you posted above, extolling the product as a possible "silver bullet", claiming to have some access to the "truth" -- and suggested that the cautions suggested on this site are overblown, and talked about how you slept on the stuff.

    The reality is this:

      DE alone did not solve your bed bug problem. Yet you're suggesting it as a possible "silver bullet", despite the fact that research shows it is no such thing. It's a tool.

      You took safety precautions which you're now suggesting aren't needed, despite contrary suggestions from experts, PCOs, and even the CDC.

    Many, many people here have told us they used DE incorrectly (mis- or overapplied it). Posts like yours tend to encourage that sort of thing.

    That's why this discussion really isn't about you or what you did. The rest of us are concerned about others who might follow your suggestions which are apparently not based on experience or knowledge.

  21. laststrawsue

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 12:51:20
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    I'm getting caught up reading all this back & forth... And what is repeated over & over is that DE is a useful part of combatting bed bugs if done in an appropriate & safe way...
    But where's these instructions on how to use it in an appropriate & safe way please?

    I haven't used it, but I was wondering if I should in my overall plan. ?

    FYI: Professional PCO is exterminating in my apt bldg. I've taken many of my items to a family vacation cabin, in the bedroom which we may have spread the bed bugs to already, that will be uninhabited & the entire bldg will not even entered more than 1 hour per week, for the next 10 months at least, and which is being treated with DDVP, exactly according to the instructions. I'm planning to have all wood furniture treated by a professional PCO upon moving (even though there's no evidence any of it has been infested). I'm taking no upholstered furniture when I move, nor the bed or any part of it. I'm not taking anything that can't be examined closely with no crevices and treated w/ spray pesticide, or anything with crevices that isn't exposed to DDVP fumigant for at least 3 weeks, possibly up to 2-3 months.
    We've been living out of plastic bags for over 2 weeks now, and I plan to continue the same regimen after the 2nd (& probably last) PCO treatment ordered by the LL, to be continued until moving.

    Is there any role DE could play in my plan safely?

  22. Sleepingwithvampbugs

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    Sorry I'm still learning this site just read this now, I see I have to scroll all the way down to make a comment I just assumed quote was comment or respond. I will nolonger post like that. My appologies to everyone.

  23. BuggerBeater

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    I had my PCO's (two of them) come in this morning to see if they could find any more remnants of bed bugs. They spent quite some time here spraying what they said was a substance that would make any bugs crawl out of their hiding spots and they weren't able to find any live ones. They did find some dried out bugs, a symptom of death by dissection -- the method by which diatomaceous earth kills. It seems that the DE did its job and I'm now bed bug free. They cautioned that there may still be eggs so to keep my eyes peeled over the next couple of weeks.

    I took the opportunity to ask their opinion about DE. Both agreed that crystalline silica (pool grade) is dangerous if inhaled but one was more open about it, saying that their boss -- the founder of the company -- dealt with high levels of crystalline silica decades ago and is still alive and well at 70. You need to be submitted to a lot of this stuff for long periods of time to cause the extensive scarring that leads to silicosis.

    They looked at the bottle of DE I was using and agreed that the 0.25% (or less) crystalline silica present is completely harmless given that pool grade has 70% and still isn't an instant killer at a percentage 300 times more than what is in my food grade DE. They joked that as long as I'm not doing lines with it, there's very little chance of having health complications.

    So I stand by my point. Don't go blowing puffs of this stuff in the air and inhaling it recklessly, but by all means, it's a very effective way to kill bedbugs. If you by any chance have cats and you're still afraid of DE, I suggest you look into getting oxygen masks for both you and your cat because they throw DE up in the air in your home every time they use their kitty litter (which actually contains crystalline silica, the pool grade stuff).

    laststrawsue, I'm not going to suggest how to use DE, because I've been made sort of a pariah for suggesting to use it without fear of becoming sick. However, I will list how I used it and you may follow my lead if you wish:

    After 3 sprays from the PCO, it appeared that I had pesticide resistant bed bugs that would not die from the spray and would start up a new colony. The first spray killed off most of the bugs, the second and third spray did nothing because the surviving bugs were breeding pesticide resistant nymphs.

    I did a ton of research on DE to determine how safe it was and came to the conclusions listed in this thread.

    The first night, I laid a fine powder of food grade DE around the perimeter of my room and on the bed legs. When I say a fine powder, I'm comparing it to what dust would look like on your furniture if you didn't dust them for a month. No big clumps, just a layer of dust. I powdered the surface then took a makeup brush and spread around until no big clumps were visible.

    The second night, I decided to lure the bugs out of the room so that they would cross the DE on their way to me sleeping on the couch. I'm not sure this was a good idea, but in the absence of putting DE on my mattress, this was the only sure way to make them cross the DE.

    I slept on the couch 2 nights after which time I had done more research on DE and found it to be safe enough to powder the perimeter of my mattress and box spring. I covered all the cracks of the bed frame and put DE in the folds of the mattress. There's no way a bug could reach me in the centre of the mattress without crossing over the DE. I slept like this for 3 nights.

    I'm going to be totally honest about physical reactions here so you know what to expect: While I was careful not apply too much DE that would go up in the air if I moved on the mattress, it was inevitable that some would stay in the air. I used a flashlight to see if there were particles in the air before going to bed. There were some, but the air otherwise seemed clear. Not surprisingly, I woke up with a dry mouth (DE is an absorbent), but no breathing difficulties. This might be alarming to some, but given that DE is super safe to eat, I wasn't worried that it was in my mouth. The different filters on the way to my lungs would capture the little dust that was in the air on its way through my respiratory system: nose filters, mucous, saliva, then the many bacteria present in your respiratory system will gobble up the rest and bring it up to areas where it will eventually be coughed out, just like it does with every day dust.

    The key was to create a fine film that bugs will walk over and not around and to block off all points of entry. Bed bugs are very predictable and they will go feed on you if there are no other hosts and the temperature is right for them to be active. If you're concerned about DE, buy it at a health food store to make sure you're getting the food grade stuff and verify that it has less than 2% crystalline silica (most food grade DE will have less than 0.5%).

  24. noone

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 13:48:31
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    Hi,

    I am just starting the fight. After coming home and finding out we have BB I want to try DE.
    Where do you purchase it and what is the most effective way to apply DE and in what quantity?

    Any help gratefully appreciated.

  25. laststrawsue

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 15:15:54
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    noone: I don't really have an answer for you about the DE, because I've got the same questions.

    But if you're just starting this saga... I HIGHLY recommend you do lots of research before spending money that might be wasted. I'm not speaking specifically about DE being a waste of money - as I'm not sure if it is or isn't yet, or what circumstances it is helpful in. But definitely don't go off spending money before you really look into what you're dealing with here with these beasties, and have some logical plan of attack, and spend your money well & strategically.
    Particularly if you're not in a position to just throw tons of money at this problem.
    I've spent well over $200 on just rubbish bags, contractor bags, & laundering, alone so far. This is not a cheaply remedied problem, unfortunately. So if you're on a budget - definitely do your research before spending money on remedies which may or may not be right for your particular situation.

  26. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 15:50:33
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    I don't want to wander off topic because this thread is about DE, but I agree about spending money on stuff that in retrospect was not worth it. I don't think I had to launder all my clothes and throw out a lot of the items I threw out. The bugs will come to you, no doubt about it, so if you have bugs residing in your clothes, they will come out to feed. Drying all my clothes might have expedited the process but eventually all the bugs will come out of their hiding spots to feed. Whether you're using spray pesticide with a residual or DE, if they're put in strategic locations where the bugs will need to cross to reach you, all that drying, packtiting and enclosing is a waste of money in my opinion.

    This is of course dependent on the size of your problem. If you find that you have a large infestation spread out throughout your home, these measures may be worth it to start localizing the problem and eliminating the dried items as potential harbourages.

    Back to this thread at hand, I highly recommend diatomaceous earth but by all means do your own research to come to your own conclusions as to whether it is safe to you.

  27. noone

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 16:35:04
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    Thank you.

    I have been reading and have decided not use a PC and do the job myself.
    I have the preliminary items. suit, mask (3M tekk ventilator), trash bags, double sided tape. gloves, goggles, plastic sheeting. (2) quart spray bottles and going to pick up the Alcohol, DE and anything else I think of.
    So far the items I've picked up cost $91.00
    Will pick up gal or 5 gals of Alcohol (91% I hope), and the internet is offering DE, EPA approved food grade of 50 lbs for $35.00.
    That should get me started.
    No illusions about the time required. I figure about 4 weeks after I start and monitoring for about 2 months to make sure everything is clear.
    I'm lucky, the problem seems to be only the bedroom but when I start I'll know more because of the tape.
    I read where DE can be mixed with 40% water, 40% alcohol, and 20% dish soap, that's the reason for 2 spray bottles. One for Alcohol and one for the added DE.
    Believe me, I'm open to suggestions for another approach or other pet friendly safe materials that are

  28. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 16:53:08
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    Your DE will be useless if immersed in liquid. The kill mechanism of diatomaceous earth is by cutting and dehydration. Under a microscope, it looks like shards of glass. It cuts into the waxy outer layer of bedbugs (and other crawling insects) and then absorbs moisture, killing them in as little as hours to as long as 10 days. By wetting the DE, it clumps together, taking away its sharp properties. In addition, liquid saturated DE particles won't absorb the moisture from the bugs. You need to apply it dry as a light dusting on surfaces.

    Keep in mind that the alcohol is pretty useless unless you're spraying the bugs directly, but in that case, water with dish detergent will do the same thing. Alcohol has no residual properties so you'll be wasting your time and money because you won't see all the bugs out in the open. Also 50lbs of DE is absolute overkill. Unless you're feeding it to deworm cows, you won't need more than a small bottle. Remember, you're just dusting your surfaces where bedbugs will be most likely to cross, not throwing around handfuls of the stuff.

  29. noone

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 17:04:51
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    Thank you.
    With that in put I'll use the Alcohol and water as a direct kill which I'll need, and the DE for the current adults, and lave and egg group as they hatch looking for food.
    I have a question about the application of the DE.
    How should it be done?

  30. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 17:24:35
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    You can ask here. I'll give you my opinion and others will probably give you their more cautious methods. It's up to you to do your research and determine which you'd like to follow.

    [Admin note: Sorry, but people who are not professionally qualified to do so should not be giving advice on the application of pesticides. Please do not do that, BuggerBeater. It's not about "opinions". Doing this wrong is unsafe. ]

  31. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 17:35:10
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    ...and by the way, for the record, I absolutely suggest getting a PCO if you can afford it, specially for large infestations. I don't think that DIY treatment should be applied on its own. Perhaps as a compliment to the PCO or as a plan B of the PCO isn't able to completely eliminate your problem.

    I had 3 treatments before resorting to DE and still I had the PCO come in to give his thumbs up to my method.

    Knowing what I know now, if I catch an infestation early, I'll probably use DE first while I wait for the PCO to come in but as a complete newbie the learning process takes time and by then you'll have committed too many mistakes and let too much time go by that you'll be damaging your chances of ridding yourself of these pests quickly.

  32. laststrawsue

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 17:46:28
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    So just to pop this in here for clarity: DE effectiveness is about having the bugs walk through it. If they walk through it, it's effective.
    ? This is what I'm getting here.

    Seems to me that the various things used to combat bb really depends on your strategy. For example, if you're talking about your own single family house, or you're renting an apt in a bldg - very different things.
    Also if you're dealing with a competent PCO, or the lousy half-baked services that your lousy landlord is barely willing to pay for.
    If your goal is to eliminate the bugs where you are, or to not transport them when you move - different strategies may be needed.

    There's no sense buying something that may not be right for the particular strategy. That's just my warning, as I think I uselessly spent some money before I got a handle on how to strategically go about things.
    Sounds to me as if DE can be very useful for some people in some situations - and not the right choice for other people in other situations.

    It was suggested to me that the DE I should use in cups (of some type) I place the bed post legs into, and shoot it into the baseboards when I move to a new apt... as a preventative measure - should I somehow transport a bug or egg to the new place when I move (which is not an immediate plan - probably be another month or 2 before I can move). But I want to be ready with a plan of attack.
    At this point, I'm not confident the problem will be solved in the apt bldg I live in for various reasons, and I'm looking at a strategy that involves moving without them.
    I'd like some feedback on this plan of action with the DE.
    I would, of course, follow expert instructions on any implementations of ANY device or product that would be used.
    SAFETY FIRST! And the more information from reputable sources, the better IMHO.

  33. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:02:29
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    Yes, DE is very effective, many studies say that more than half die within a few days of contact and 100% die by the 10th day. These tests were done by forcing the bugs on to the DE so that is the bottleneck. However, if you can guarantee that the bugs walk on the DE, they will die. My method was to surround myself (around the mattress) with DE so every bug that wanted to feed (they all do), had to cross DE to get me.

    Another issue is that it takes time for DE to work so while some bugs stay alive, they may be laying eggs so you have to persist for two or more generations (eggs can take 10-14 days to hatch). It also gets complicated if you have more than one resident living in your dwelling. More hosts means more pobabilities that the bugs can feed without crossing DE.

    When I talk about DE being a potential (part of) a silver bullet, I think about the method of application getting refined to the point that bugs will all come in contact with DE and die. The idea behind this thought is in the attraction component. When science is perfected to design a lure based on CO2/heat/pheromones that bed bugs will have an irresistible attraction to they can be killed when they come in contact with DE as they approach the source. Science isnt there yet but when it gets to that point, DE will be a reliable kill that doesn't allow for resistance buildup, is residual for as long as it is present and kills with almost total certainty when bugs come intoo contact.

  34. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:24:57
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    Hi BuggerBeater,

    Is your DE from a sustainable source?

    David

  35. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:28:02
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    I got my DE from an environmental products store here in Toronto. Here's their site: grassrootsstore.com

  36. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:31:26
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    Hi,

    Yes I appreciate you got it from a green store but do you know if it's sustainably sourced?

    David

  37. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:32:10
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    I can't know for sure, but I would assume so given where it was purchased.

  38. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:39:12
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    Sadly it's not, it can't be, DE is mined and is actually crushed fossilised organisms.

    I am sure someone will develop an inert product which acts the same way as DE but DE will never be sustainable. For completeness of information the main exporters are based in South America.

    David

  39. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 18:46:31
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    With all due respect (you've gained it), so be it then. I'm an environmental nut and up until now would go to great lengths to preserve all life, even insects that my friends would try to crush, but my sanity and wellbeing came ahead in this case and I'm willing to kill (bugs) and use unsustainable products if that means getting my life back.

    If we're splitting hairs, pyrethrin is grown for the purpose of pesticides. It too is not environmentally friendly given the excess water and damage to arable soil used to grow it. Are we to be overthrown by pests in our homes because of our environmental conscious? There's a balance that needs to be weighed.

    Given the extremely low price of DE, I'm going to assume that it is plentiful enough that it won't run out any time soon.

    I too would love to see an artificial DE developed. Perhaps one that is engineered with an attractant that lures bedbugs. Now that would be a silver bullet.

  40. bed-bugscouk

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 19:07:33
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    Luring DE was tried until they quickly realised that most aggregation pheromones for bedbugs also act as alarm pheromones when present in excess.

    It is however not the most environmentally friendly solution when you fully understand the processes required to get it into a consumer format and shop.

    It is a great tool but like all tools it must be used correctly and appropriately and with the same care and attention as all things connected with bedbugs. To look or think in terms of silver bullets is to have a very naive understanding of the issue on a case by case and country by country scale.

    If you do mean what you wrote in the first line of your post above think about that last paragraph and understand your time and efforts would be better utilised by illustrating your points visually rather than a text only method.

    As those who have read it will confirm the protocol in my book is only recommended for light and single source exposures. If heavy and spreading cases attempt to rely only on DE without the benefit of IPM policies then the spread of bedbugs in buildings and work locations will increase dramatically due to lack of containment.

    If you want to understand this in more detail please PM me.

    David

  41. BuggerBeater

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 19:27:49
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    Thank you for your kind offer David. I will PM you if I have any questions.

  42. buggyinsocal

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 22:37:20
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    If you by any chance have cats and you're still afraid of DE, I suggest you look into getting oxygen masks for both you and your cat because they throw DE up in the air in your home every time they use their kitty litter (which actually contains crystalline silica, the pool grade stuff).

    This is a bit off topic, but I do think it's worth responding to.

    It is true that many people are unaware of the silica dust that is widely used in cat litter. However, I am not one of those people. For over ten years now, I've used a cat litter that is free of silica dust since it's made from corn. Silica free cat litter does exist.

    I should also point out that urging caution and the responsible use of a substance is not the same thing as being afraid of it.

  43. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 23:51:46
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    laststrawsue - 10 hours ago  » 
    I'm getting caught up reading all this back & forth... And what is repeated over & over is that DE is a useful part of combatting bed bugs if done in an appropriate & safe way...
    But where's these instructions on how to use it in an appropriate & safe way please?
    I haven't used it, but I was wondering if I should in my overall plan. ?

    FYI: Professional PCO is exterminating in my apt bldg. I've taken many of my items to a family vacation cabin...

    I'm planning to have all wood furniture treated by a professional PCO upon moving (even though there's no evidence any of it has been infested).

    .... I plan to continue the same regimen after the 2nd (& probably last) PCO treatment ordered by the LL, to be continued until moving.
    Is there any role DE could play in my plan safely?

    If your current home is getting professional treatment, why not ask that PCO if DE would play a role, and where and how to apply it, if s/he does not want to. It's not a good idea to self-treat on top of what a pro is doing, unless they agree to it and it's done properly and in the right places.

    If you're asking about the cabin, then there are resources for finding out more. We have a FAQ on DE which is a good start. Although I am certainly not an expert, the FAQ quotes a number of sources and refers you to information.

    The Resources page contains a section called Comprehensive Guides written by experts, and some of these contain information on using diatomaceous earth or other dusts.

    You can even try PMing some of the pros here who often answer questions.

    However, you should not be asking for or taking treatment advice from anonymous users of an internet forum.

  44. Nobugsonme

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    Wed Oct 19 2011 23:56:42
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    Sleepingwithvampbugs - 10 hours ago  » 
    Sorry I'm still learning this site just read this now, I see I have to scroll all the way down to make a comment I just assumed quote was comment or respond. I will nolonger post like that. My appologies to everyone.

    No problem, Sleepingwithvampbugs.

    You can click quote to respond more quickly, and then you can either delete the entire passage which populates the response box (to NOT quote), or you can just delete the text which you don't want to include in the quote.

    Thanks!

  45. Nobugsonme

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    laststrawsue - 6 hours ago  » 
    So just to pop this in here for clarity: DE effectiveness is about having the bugs walk through it. If they walk through it, it's effective.
    ? This is what I'm getting here.

    Please read the FAQ. There is research linked from there which suggests this is not necessarily so. See the information on the study by Benoit et. al. at the end of the FAQ, which notes that


    The efficacy of diatomaceous earth seems to depend somewhat on the formulation; sometimes it works and sometimes it does not (Allan and Patrican 1994). Resistance also seems to be an issue with diatomaceous earth (Korunic and Ormesher 2000, Rigaux et al. 2001).

    This research suggests that bed bugs who walk through DE don't always die.

  46. BuggerBeater

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    Thu Oct 20 2011 0:06:08
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    buggyinsocal - 1 hour ago  » 

    If you by any chance have cats and you're still afraid of DE, I suggest you look into getting oxygen masks for both you and your cat because they throw DE up in the air in your home every time they use their kitty litter (which actually contains crystalline silica, the pool grade stuff).

    This is a bit off topic, but I do think it's worth responding to.
    It is true that many people are unaware of the silica dust that is widely used in cat litter. However, I am not one of those people. For over ten years now, I've used a cat litter that is free of silica dust since it's made from corn. Silica free cat litter does exist.

    Yes, but you must admit that given that it is widely used (most kitty litter contains pool grade DE), it is considered safe for public consumption. I've never heard of anybody dying from life long exposure to kitty litter. So if pool grade DE is used in a home product around humans and pets, food grade DE with 300 times less crystalline silica is much much safer than you're willing to admit.

  47. Nobugsonme

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    BuggerBeater - 6 hours ago  » 
    You can ask here. I'll give you my opinion and others will probably give you their more cautious methods. It's up to you to do your research and determine which you'd like to follow.

    Sorry, but people who are not professionally qualified to do so should not be giving advice on the application of pesticides. Please do not do that, BuggerBeater. It's not about "opinions" about the best way to use DE. Doing this wrong is unsafe.

    People who want to learn to use DE should try reading the FAQ and the materials it links to, and the Comprehensive Guides I linked to above. They should not be asking others who are not qualified to advise on its use.

    There's a big difference between doing your thing in your own home, and trying to advise others.

  48. Nobugsonme

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    BuggerBeater - 6 hours ago  » 
    Yes, DE is very effective, many studies say that more than half die within a few days of contact and 100% die by the 10th day. These tests were done by forcing the bugs on to the DE so that is the bottleneck. However, if you can guarantee that the bugs walk on the DE, they will die.

    Research suggests this is not so. I give a reference in my post here.

  49. BuggerBeater

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    I'm not ready to declare victory yet, and I think I'll be jumpy about any spots for quite some time, but tonight I will be sleeping in my bed with bedsheets for the first time in nearly 2 months. After the second spray, I purchased brand new bedsheets to treat myself as a reward for defeating these bugs, but was cautious not to open the package because I wasn't convinced it was over.

    It's been over a week since I first applied DE around my bedroom, and 5 days since I went to thermonuclear war with these little vampires by applying DE to the sides of my mattress and bed frame. I haven't seen a bed bug since. I had my PCO come 2 days ago to do an inspection and two of them including a supervisor came (because I had been sprayed 3 times with bugs still being found). They didn't find a single live bug, only dissected dead ones.

    Tonight, I'm the most optimistic I've been for a long time. While I was confident, I was still afraid to do a thorough inspection because maybe I'd find something that would defeat my optimism. Well, I went right ahead and did just that. I was afraid every step of the way but I took my bed apart and went through every crack and crevice with a flashlight. I did this as a final step to apply DE to the underside of my encased boxspring and the bottom of the frame. I put a nearly invisible dusting in these places that are unlikely to be disturbed for as long as I don't have bedbugs and won't have to touch my box spring. It's a set it and forget it final dusting that will give me peace of mind knowing that if there are any bugs left, they will walk on this DE. I didn't apply DE to the mattress and will be getting an enclosure in a few days that I ordered this morning.

    I don't want to be inhaling dust of any kind, but as I've said at the beginning of this thread, I don't feel that food grade DE is any more dangerous than the kitty litter that my cats used to tread around the house on their paws. This introduction to DE has given me interest in its health benefits, mainly to the digestive system. I'll be reading more about this but will likely be consuming DE in water regularly to keep my body working well.

    T-minus 45 days to victory confirmation.

  50. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sat Oct 22 2011 13:59:21
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    BuggerBeater - 17 hours ago  » 

    I don't want to be inhaling dust of any kind, but as I've said at the beginning of this thread, I don't feel that food grade DE is any more dangerous than the kitty litter that my cats used to tread around the house on their paws.

    Maybe, but you don't put kitty litter in places you're going to sleep, sit, or walk. So I don't think it's a fair comparison.

    I am glad you decided not to use DE on your mattress.

    This introduction to DE has given me interest in its health benefits, mainly to the digestive system. I'll be reading more about this but will likely be consuming DE in water regularly to keep my body working well.

    I would not personally recommend this but if you were going to do it, I would be really cautious about the DE you used. It's not all the same. No one is (AFAIK) regulating its purity.

    I've seen the video of the Perma-Guard (now deceased owner? Founder?) drinking his company's DE. I doubt that even proponents of such an activity (of which I am not one) would do this with any old DE marketed as "food grade". You don't really know anything about its origins or content.

  51. KillerQueen

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sat Oct 22 2011 15:01:22
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    I'm not reading all this nonsense above because I see the effects of DE treatments regularly . I'm also a nationally certified pool operator and use pool grade DE all the time and know that what you wrote is incorrect.

    The reason I'm even commenting here now is because I just left a walk through with a building where 1 man used DE in his apartment and turned the building upside down because he "read everything on the internet about DE". He not only still has bugs all over his apartment (said he hasn't seen any in 9 days and I found 50 or more and 100 plus eggs in 2 minutes without even really trying to look) he caused migration to 3 of the 5 units. So that's 4 infestations in a 5 unit building and I also just treated 2 apartments in the attached building next door this week. So the guy has infested 5 people that we know of in 2 buildings at this point.

    Bottom line ... unless you're in this field day in and day out and see the effects of bad treatments by both professionals and lay people .... you shouldn't give tips and advice period!

    Not to mention the countless calls I take from people with respiratory problems after self treating with DE.

  52. Sleepingwithvampbugs

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Oct 23 2011 0:12:32
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    thank you buggerbeater for the post, i know alot of people on here wanna make it as hard as possible to rid yourself of bedbugs, i have done plenty of research on DE and found that it is way less harmful than the pesticides the PCO's want to put in my apt......DE has been found to be effective quite often, i got the heat treatment reccomended by everyone, and guess what? still have bed bugs, i will be laying down DE and checking the results, i WILL NOT be inhaling huge quantities of it.....................have a good night, i will post my results shortly

  53. KillerQueen

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    Sun Oct 23 2011 1:20:33
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    Sleepingwithvampbugs - 1 hour ago  » 
    thank you buggerbeater for the post, i know alot of people on here wanna make it as hard as possible to rid yourself of bedbugs, i have done plenty of research on DE and found that it is way less harmful than the pesticides the PCO's want to put in my apt......DE has been found to be effective quite often, i got the heat treatment reccomended by everyone, and guess what? still have bed bugs, i will be laying down DE and checking the results, i WILL NOT be inhaling huge quantities of it.....................have a good night, i will post my results shortly

    Hysterical! You missed the message completely. When you miss the message you become part of the problem, not the solution.

    Whatever the method I hope your problem is resolved asap.

  54. Sleepingwithvampbugs

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Oct 23 2011 23:04:46
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    Hysterical! You missed the message completely. When you miss the message you become part of the problem, not the solution.
    Whatever the method I hope your problem is resolved asap.

    and what message would that be killerqueen?

  55. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Oct 23 2011 23:15:10
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    It's ok. Several people here missed or deliberately ignored the facts that I laid out here, namely that Diatomaceous Earth is in household products that people around the world use safely such as kitty litter and tooth paste and in food products like grains (rice, bread).

    How can such a widely used product which is safe to consume and even to be around in dust format (cat owners, bakers) be so dangerous as they claim?

  56. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Oct 23 2011 23:40:41
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    I have never seen someone so dangerously pigheaded.

  57. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Oct 23 2011 23:47:15
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    It takes (at least) two to be stubborn.

    Why don't you address how toothpaste, powder based face masks, dusty bakeries, kitty litter can be so dangerous?

  58. BuggerBeater

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Oct 24 2011 0:02:39
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    The message I see here is that "Diatomaceous Earth is dangerous"

    Tell that to farmers who handle handfuls of Food Grade DE to feed to poultry. The millions of dead, silicosis stricken farmers must have been missed somehow. The millions of asthmatic bakers who deal with dusty grain while making bread every day must have never been reported. The millions of women in their homes who make cosmetic face masks before going to bed while dealing with scoops of mud containing DE which is used for its abrasive properties have no idea they're heading to an air grasping death must have gone unnoticed. If only millions of cat owners around the world knew that their loving pets were killing them every time they went to the bathroom, throwing up DE into the air in homes of families with children. Oh the children! Somebody please go save them from kitty litter!!

    The point I'm making here is not for people to go out and snort lines of DE. By all means, be careful not to inhale any dust. It is the hyperbole surrounding food grade DE that is absolutely astounding given that this product is used by millions, billions even and approved by governments and health agencies around the world.

  59. AshamedandScratching

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Oct 24 2011 0:15:49
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    Honestly, your question is based on a logical fallacy: if DE is in these safe products, than DE itself must be safe.

    This discussion is about your insistence that you way of applying DE is safe and most effective at killing bugs. You proselytize it and you've even made a few converts in this thread. That is dangerous. It has been said ad nauseum above and with links that DE can be a dangerous substance applied aggressively. It's fine to believe something and live your life accordingly, but it becomes dangerous when you start advocating it for others. That you persist shocks me. That you believe you know more than people who work in the field and the studies provided scares me.

  60. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Oct 24 2011 0:28:03
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    AshamedandScratching is absolutely correct.

    Buggerbeater,
    you have not provided any new information about DE. You have provided some misinformation and bad advice as noted above.

    I don't see the point in this particular thread continuing.


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