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Resistant to heat?

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  1. AZbedbug

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 3:13:31
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    I am so angry right now.....my husband and i spent all day steaming the mattresses and washing/high heat drying all the bedding (as well as drying clothing, vaccuming all carpets and dusting with DE). I even took a few loads of the bigger stuff bagged up to the laundry mat, we were really carefullt about getting it directly in the washers, washed on 'HOT' and dried on "HI HEAT' when I got the matress cover home it wasn't quite dry, so i crammed it in my small dry and dried it more (about 30 minutes). my husband has an infrared temp thingy (for work) that i used to check the temp in the dryer (at home, didn't take it to the laundry mat) it is 135-150 F. I take the cover out of the drier, looking forward to a nice bug-free nights sleep, and when i spread it out (on my freshly heat steamed mattress) there are 3 of the little f'ers right there!! I am so mad! Is it because we are in Arizona? Are they immune to the heat now too!! What else can we do? Please don't say a PCO, we can not afford it! As it is we are 2 months behing on mortgage and at this point I'm thinking we let the house (and all the furniture) go and fing a rental. My husband has a severe reaction to these bites (where mine show up and disappear within a few hours). I think it may have to due with them liking certain DNA, my son shows no sign of bites, his sons show prominent signs of bites, and our son shows only a few. We are at our wits end. We are even considering banishing the pets at this point due to them possibly being carriers!

  2. Alberta has bugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 3:31:49
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    If it is for sure bed bugs, I wonder if you washed and dried too many items at once?

    The heat may not have penetrated to the required temperature for 20 mins, especially if the comforter was still wet when brought home.

    I am to understand that 20 minutes on high heat is when everything is dry, then it should cook them.
    So you would have to dry the items, then dry them for one more cycle.

    As far as immune to heat, maybe the ones in Arizona need a little extra ([i]edit: I mean time to cook not temperature), if acclimatized?
    But I do think they will cook.

  3. AZbedbug

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 3:39:04
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    It is definetly bed bugs, we did lots of research to be sure. And the matress topper was in a load all by itself in the largest industrial washer, then dryer.

    So, do you think if I dry it longer, another hour, it would be safe? I'm so worried about re-infesting the bedroom/matress. Should we re-steam the matress since I laid the matress pad out in the bedroom then saw them? Should I give up and just go sleep in the car!? Lol

    But seriously, now I am really worried about other laundry mat patrons, as well as my car that I brought the dang thing home in, and the garage that i threw it out in when I saw the 3 little ones after washing. Can a car be treated with DE? or bedlam?

  4. Alberta has bugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 3:51:43
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    drycleaners and thriftstores..........[url=http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/dry-cleaners-and-thrift-stores-spread-bb][/url]

    I would look at that thread where NoBugs talks about comforters and their insulating properties.
    I hope you have checked the FAQ's as opinions vary on the treatment of your car. I vaccumed and put DE into the carpet then vacumed again as well as sprayed with a residual. Other people have used heat or some type of gas like Vikane.
    I also was able to let it sit for awhile after spraying.

    As far as the mattress goes, if it was me, I would resteam for peace of mind, but may be ok.

    Experts?

  5. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 3:52:19
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    Bed bugs cannot become resistant to heat. That's not the problem.

  6. Alberta has bugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 4:01:19
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    True, it is my understanding that in colder climates the shock of heat does them in faster than in warmer climates.
    Chances are the heat from the dryer did not sustain a decent level of "killable" heat in every part of the comforter.
    I have went back in and edited my post.

  7. AZbedbug

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Dec 12 2011 4:36:53
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    Thank you for the input. I toke a few deep breathes then retrieved the matress cover and am putting it in my dryer for another hour or so. I guess I will just be sleeping on the couch another night until we can re-steam the matress.

    I guess the upside to living in AZ is that if they aren't all gone come summer I should be able to put all the furniture outside and they will bake since it gets up to 120 degrees easy in July! But Gawd I hope it doesnt last that long since I think my husband will go insane by then!

  8. Alberta has bugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 3:55:30
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    free report article on temperatures to kill BB's

    Here is an interesting article I bumped into that talks about the effects of rapid versus slowly changing the temperature to kill BB's.

    Here is an excerpt on cold:
    "However, bed bugs have the capacity for rapid cold hardening, so that a 1-h exposure to 32°F improved their subsequent tolerance of −7°F and −3°F respectively, requiring either longer duration or lower temperatures. [79]"

    and here is an excerpt on heat:
    :90% higher temperatures than previously reported were required to kill bed bugs when the temperature rose slowly — possibly because of the way previous heat tests have been conducted — but it is not known what enables bedbugs to resist gradual heat stress.["

    I am not sure of the technical expertise on the article, but it is a good read.

  9. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 11:22:40
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    I don't think it's a free report article on bed bugs; I think it's a Free Republic article on bed bugs.

    As always, it is important to evaluate the quality of any source. This is especially true with online sources. Some online sources are of very high quality; others are less reliable. The article that Alberta has bugs linked to above is from a website called the Free Republic. The Free Republic is a right-leaning website that's known for having a strong conservative bias.

    Anything from the Free Republic would definitely NOT be my go to source for any scientific information. This is a website that is likely to post all kinds of allegedly scientific information on how climate change isn't due to humankind's effects, so I'm going to be very skeptical of any bed bug info I find there too unless it's simply being reprinted from a much more reliable source.

    And, sadly, what AZbedbug said here:

    I guess the upside to living in AZ is that if they aren't all gone come summer I should be able to put all the furniture outside and they will bake since it gets up to 120 degrees easy in July!

    is unlikely to work.

    People ask about variations on that treatment all the time. Some PCOs who know less even suggest to people that they put things in black garbage bags and put those in the car on a hot summer day.

    Do It Yourself Thermal is NOT recommended. I wish it did work. If it was a viable possibility, I'd have just rented a U-Haul and taken all my stuff out to El Centro or Blythe in the summer and skipped the PCO. No, not even in the desert where daytime temps in the sun routinely reach well over 120 degrees,

    There are a lot of previous posts on this idea and its variants: putting stuff in the sun, putting stuff in a car in the sun, putting stuff in a bag in the sun, putting stuff in a bag in the car in the sun, and so on. They've all been debunked as not being a reliable way to kill bed bugs.

    Heat treatment--when you're talking about more than using dry vapor steam on some items as part of a larger treatment program--is tricky--a lot trickier than it looks. Bed bugs cannot become resistant to heat. But to get heat treatments to work requires raising the temperature at a very precise rate. When structural heat treatment is done, the temp inside a structure is brought up at a certain speed. As a result, the bugs flee into cooler spots. But then those cooler spots begin slowly to heat up. As the cooler spots heat up, the bugs flee--but the only place they have left to go is warmer than where they were, and tah dah!, they're cooked. (If you take pleasure in watching this happen, I highly recommend some of the videos David James has of bugs in a jar in the Packtite.)

    Raise the temperature too slowly and the bugs will simply flee. This can spread an infestation, making it much harder to treat and more expensive to deal with in the long run.

    The other trick with structural heat is that the heat has to get raised in every nook and cranny of every insulated item. (This is one of the main reasons that using your car is an ineffective plan; there's also the possibility of infesting your car this way, and cars are really, really hard to treat, so you really don't want to do that.) When heat treatments fail, it's often because the temperature in a cool spot--inside a really puffy couch, inside a closet or a wall space where the bugs were--didn't reach lethal temps for long enough.

    When you have heat done professionally, part of what you're paying for is the labor and expertise of professionals with the experience of monitoring the temp in all kinds of possible cool spots.

    Even in a place with as much sun and with as high a daily air temperature as the Arizona desert in the summer, you're relying on a passive method to raise the temperature. You cannot control it. Therefore, you cannot guarantee that you can get the temperature inside that overstuffed armchair high enough to kill the bugs.

    I'm an English major, not a scientist, so I pretty much suck at explaining the physics of all this. (I didn't take physics on high school; the physics I took in college was very much a Physics for Poets class.) But there are plenty of other posts that explain these issues in great depth. I would strongly urge AZbedbugs to read all of those posts (with tags like heat treatment or key terms like car and sun) before attempting that.

  10. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 11:54:15
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    It's actually rather simple, here's a few points to consider:

    Temperature and required exposure time are at an inverse relationship. As temperature increases, required exposure time decreases.

    As we're looking for 100% control/mortality, it's best to be more conservative than remain at the "edges" or "threshold levels" for successful treatments.

    The lethal threshold is 113 F. The target lethal temperature is 122 F for at least one minute exposure time. So, being conservative and seeking 100% mortality, let's shoot for above 122 F for an exposure time of over one minute.

    It's physics meats biology. We are literally cooking live tissues and imparting lethal affects at the molecular and cellular level. There is no resistance to heat !

    Convection heat is more effective and time efficient than conduction heat.

    In order for heat to attain 100% mortality, 100% of the treated areas.items MUST reach the target temperatures for the required exposure time.

    While some BBs may move durng heat treatments, others may "hunker down" or "stay put"within their harborage. (If you attend a heat treatment in progress you will observe this for yourself. Let's not imprint human characterisitics on insects (nor our furry friends from the friendly forrest, thanks Walt for doing that damage already). They're bugs and not capable of higher thought and problem solving.

    It is unfortuneate that AZ had this percieved "treatment failure" but, it wasn't a treatment failure as much as it was a failure to conduct the treatment properly as per the requirements.

    Pro vs DIY: Yes, I'm rather outspoken in this topic. The reason is that over 85% of the folks who contact me for help cannot afford professional services and they are stuck with few, if any, alternatives.

    If you have the resources avaiable to hire a professional, then by all means do so, good for you !

    If you have limited resources, such as having to decide between paying your rent or hiring a BB professional, or worse; then you may need to consider the DIY route.

    Is the DIY route an easy path? No, it isn't.

    Can it be done? Yes it can but, it requires a commitment to the task at hand.

    In fact, one such DIY person is in a chair having been paralyzed from the waist down for many years from a traffic accident. However, due to concerns regarding social stigma this person would not seek help from friends or loved ones and proceeded to conduct the DIY work alone. And, if this person can do it, anyone can.

    The key is knowing what to do and doing it correctly.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  11. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 12:05:21
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    Paul,

    Do you think you could explain how convection vs. conduction heat would work in a DIY situation?

    I do mean it when I say that I'm an English major with almost no physics background, so I've only got a vague idea of the difference between the two. (Like, seriously, I know that a convection oven is one kind of thing, but that's it.)

    My experience with structural heat treatment (which, obviously, I couldn't be present for) does back up what you said. I didn't find nearly as many dead bugs as I'd expected to, so I can only guess that the PCOs cleaned up some of them, but I found the leftovers of the bugs that did hide or not move.

    If you could explain convection vs. conduction in a way that even an English major like me could understand, i'd be happy to pass that information along to others. I explain the parts of this that I can, in the methods I can (which if often analogy and imprecise), but I pretty much don't talk about the scientific aspects because I know I'll muck those up.

  12. P Bello

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 12:48:22
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    OK, simply stated:

    Convection - heat is forced throughout via air movement. Much like in a convenction oven.

    Conduction - heat is transferred through surfaces and "conducted" between surfaces and materials. Much like how a frying pan would work or a traditional oven.

    The advantage of convection is that heat is delivered to many surfaces via a constant bathing of these surfaces in the higher temoperature air.

    Without the forced air movement, the subject items are heated at a rate of the conduction for the particular surface material being heated.

    At the minute level, thermal energy is lost as the surface of the target item absorbs the heat. That is, if we're blowing 145 F air at a mattress that is 71 F the interface temperature at that surface is going to be less than 145 F. However, we can more time efficiently heat that mattress surface if we continue to force 145 F air at that surface rather than depend upon unforced warm air.

    Of course, the internal surfaces of the mattress, or any other target material, will raise in temperature bsed upon the thermal resistance & conductivity presented by the subject material.

    In reality, we do have both convection and conduction going on at the same time but the important factor is that we're using rapid air movement to deliver the therms needed.

    PLEASE note I am not a physicist (not even sure how to spell it) but I have a fundemental understanding of the subject.

    In fact, we're probably better off if Mr. James would chime in on this subject as well !

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  13. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 14:26:58
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    Hi,

    In the simplest of possible terms:

    Convection - think hair dryer

    Conduction - think oil filled radiator

    If you want to use heat to kill bedbugs then convention is your friend and conduction is a scam.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  14. buggyinsocal

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 14:45:42
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    Thank you both. To be sure I've got this right, in structural heat treatment, that means that they mostly use convection (since in my case, it was a propane fueled heater and ducts that carried the hot air from that heater in the driveway to my apartment unit.) Some companies may also use conduction heaters to supplement that in some structural heat treatments.

    The issue with both bag o'stuff in the sun or bag o'stuff in the car would be that it's conductive rather than convection, right?

  15. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 16:07:50
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    Hi,

    I have seen structural heaters touting both convection (via heaters and air flow, propane and others heat sources) as well as people who use conductive based heating systems in the home (often via heat exchangers and heated fluids such as polyethylene glycol).

    "If" and its a massive "if" I was going to go down the whole area heating route it would only ever be with a convective solution. The main reason for this is the data presented by Stephen Kell's in Denver 2011 which showed that bedbugs actually move towards a convective heating source whereas they run from a conductive one.

    Sadly there are lost of people out there who made the wrong investment and will try and sell you conductive as convective.

    Hope that helps.

    David

  16. Alberta has bugs

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 20:32:30
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    buggyinsocal - 9 hours ago  » 
    I don't think it's a free report article on bed bugs; I think it's a Free Republic article on bed bugs.
    As always, it is important to evaluate the quality of any source. This is especially true with online sources. Some online sources are of very high quality; others are less reliable. The article that Alberta has bugs linked to above is from a website called the Free Republic. The Free Republic is a right-leaning website that's known for having a strong conservative bias.
    Anything from the Free Republic would definitely NOT be my go to source for any scientific information. This is a website that is likely to post all kinds of allegedly scientific information on how climate change isn't due to humankind's effects, so I'm going to be very skeptical of any bed bug info I find there too unless it's simply being reprinted from a much more reliable source.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Yes it is the The Free Republic Report, I erred in posting a title, my apologies. However right, left middle, I do not really care as long as the information is accurate. However if you notice I did end my paragraph with unsure of the technical expertise. However it does not mean it may not be accurate. Surely a magazine of a viewpoint different than someones could have a decent article on bedbugs?

    Just fascinated with the thought of rapid heat/cold versus slow heat/cold. Since bugs have a type of antifreeze to help them (read it in post somewhere on this site) with the climate. Then it makes sense to me.

    However not an expert, just curious.

  17. djames1921

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 22:12:53
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    Paul Bello and Mr. Cain have knocked this one out of the park with their descriptions of conduction/convection, not much more for me to add, well done gentlemen :). I always think of this analogy, imagine coming in from the cold into two houses, one heated by convective heat (as most are) heat source circulated by air, one heated by conduction, a fire in the middle of the room. In the convective room, you would feel warm but probably could not tell where the heat was coming from, the whole room is just warm. In the conductive room, you could feel the source of the heat, such that you could find it even with your eyes closed. This is similar to how bed bugs react, when convective heat gets too uncomfortable for them, knowing which way to go to get away from it is hard as everywhere just feels hot. In the conductive room, the source of the heat is easily identified and moved away from, just like when you stand in front of a fire your frontside is warm but your backside is cool. Even with convective heat, cool spots can form and as Paul stated, they can't be tolerated as bed bugs could survive in those areas. I learned all this the hard way when designing and testing the Packtite units, and it is why the new Closet took an extra 6 months longer than I thought it would.

  18. djames1921

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jan 5 2012 22:14:00
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    Paul,

    Check your pm, I got your last message too late :(.

  19. darimini

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Jun 29 2013 15:09:39
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    bed-bugscouk - 1 year ago  » 
    Hi,
    In the simplest of possible terms:
    Convection - think hair dryer
    Conduction - think oil filled radiator
    If you want to use heat to kill bedbugs then convention is your friend and conduction is a scam.
    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    This makes no sense. As long as all items in an enclosure using conductive heat are brought to 125F (in ALL parts of every item in the WHOLE enclosure) and held there, according to the extensive research I've done, the bugs and eggs *will* die.

    David, give up this sad (and personally-based) attack on a product or system just because you have issues with the maker.

    - Francesca

  20. P Bello

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Jun 29 2013 15:40:19
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    Dear Francesca,

    Let's not be too hasty with our dismissal of the conduction vs. convection heat discussion.

    Convection heat is hands down the better threshold lethal temperature thermal delivery system.

    Conduction has logistical challenges it must overcome to successfully kill bed bugs or any other critter. In one university lab trial using conduction heat they found that bed bugs were able to withstand temperatures well above the thermal threshold.

    Additionally, conduction heat allows for critters to detect the change in temperature and migrate away should these insects choose to do so. In fact, it may be argued that my YouTube video of a heat treatment demonstrates this as those bed bugs on the far masonry type wall, which is much cooler at that point in time, are quite happy to stay in place whilst those on the mattress and box spring appear to be "running for their lives", which they are.

    This said, there's one area of discussion that seems absent in these conduction/convection discussions is the inherent presence of conduction heat within the convection heat process.

    We need to note that by definition, only those surfaces that are being directly exposed to the open moving heated air are subject to the convection heat whilst those "sub-surfaces" and other such surfaces not directly exposed to the moving heated air are being heated via conduction.

    Think of it this way, the external surfaces of your couch are being heated via convection but the mass of material within the couch cushion not exposed to the moving heated air is being heated via conduction.

    OK, now that I've totally muddied the waters here, we also need to realize that the convection heat delivery system better addresses thermal energy loss than does conduction heat. This is why it takes much less time to roast your Thanksgiving turkey in a convection oven than it does in a traditional oven. You see, there's a constant thermal battle going on within the oven where thermal energy is lost at the turkey's surface. However, the forced hot air convection system is better able to overcome the energy drain due to constant bombardment of the surface with heated air.

    And, if you're of the curious nature, go to HD or L and purchase an infrared thermometer which will allow you to take temperature readings at various time milestones of various surfaces during the cooking process. You can track these temps in a conduction vs. convection system and see what you observe. Done in a suitable and fair fashion you will better understand this issue.

    Now, let's get back to the critters ! Surely even dumb critters and people are smart enough to come in out of the rain, right?

    And, we need to understand that even dumbass cattle compete for whatever shady areas that are present on a hot sunny day out on the pasture. OK, yes, cows are higher life forms than are bed bugs. And, in fact, a cow's brain is much larger and highly developed than a bed bug's for sure. And, that's even if we can agree that a mass of ganglia, as present in insects, can correctly be "called a brain".

    Now, despite the is it a brain is it not a brain issue, it's also fair to state that bed bugs, and other lower life forms, pretty much, kinda-sorta act by instinct. And, these instinctual reactions may vary by individual critter (note that by "critter" I mean bed bugs and other critters as well). This is why we observe some bed bugs "running like crazy" during such heat treatments while others may "hunker down" in their harborage area. In either case, these bed bugs eventually succumb to properly delivered lethal thermal temperatures.

    We also need to remember that when dealing with biological entities, living things, that "your mileage may vary" and it is this great variance which seems to make life interesting; wouldn't you agree?

    And, with people, the variance of opinion, how folks communicate their various thoughts, make their individual decisions, etc. may be yet just another example of this "bio-variance" and "bio-diversity" amongst all the critters of the world.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  21. Alldara

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    Posted 4 years ago
    Sat Jun 29 2013 22:34:14
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    Can you afford mattress covers? They help SO much. If you can pay someone upfront with a crrdit card, amazon has amazing deals on them all the time. And pillow covers.

    A standard dryer does work, even without a wash first, Ive seen ot in action.
    STeaming doesnt 100% for sure work on matresses because of thickness. So covers are best.


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