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RAID BED BUG AND FLEA KILLER SPRAY

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  1. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 17:11:25
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    Raid has a new spray for bed bugs called Raid Bed Bug and Flea Killer. I know that ppl are going to add their 2 cents about the well-known Ohio State University study on foggers and sprays that claim to kill bed bugs. This study used these three insecticides from these brands: HOT SHOT BED BUG FOGGER AND SPRAY; SPECTRACIDE BUG STOP, and; SPECTRACIDE INDOOR FOGGER. The study did not examine Raid Bed Bug killer so there is NO evidence that THIS PARTICULAR BRAND (i.e., RAID BED BUG KILLER) does not work.

    I am currently using this spray and apparently, my problem appears to have been eradicated. However, I have also used the "steaming" process. I will post more details of my process.

  2. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 17:14:18
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    Also, I did some research when I first discovered my "problem" and found an article that may help others. I was going to try the fogger method used here, but I don't know how to turn off my oven pilot lights and I refuse to risk blowing up the house for some stupid bugs, lol.

    http://hotels.about.com/od/bedbugs/a/Bed-Bug-Treatment.htm

  3. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 17:29:38
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    also this product does not contain pytherins.

  4. Paranoid12

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 17:35:53
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    IDK Raid even had a bed bug killer.

  5. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Sun Sep 23 2012 18:43:49
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    Well from what I've read from the experts on here. Field is much different than lab results. They say that foggers disperse them as well as insecticide sprays. If it was that simple than I think we'd all.use those products. In the lab they have no where to hide but in real life they can hide in many cracks and crevices. I think the steaming works better. There is bedlam that cines in a can. I know for a fact that works but its like $20 bucks a can. My 2 cents

  6. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 18:44:32
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    yes, paranoid12, it's new. it was introduced around July/August 2012. I've used Raid products for other pests and it worked well. I tried Hot Shot products for other pests and it DID NOT work well so I'm not surprised that it didn't work when tested in the study.

  7. scaredy cat

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    Sun Sep 23 2012 19:07:37
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    feelinghelplesswith3 babies - 7 minutes ago  » 
    Well from what I've read from the experts on here. Field is much different than lab results. They say that foggers disperse them as well as insecticide sprays. If it was that simple than I think we'd all.use those products. In the lab they have no where to hide but in real life they can hide in many cracks and crevices. I think the steaming works better. There is bedlam that cines in a can. I know for a fact that works but its like $20 bucks a can. My 2 cents

    So why wouldn't steam disperse them as well? The bugs will disperse because they're trying to avoid contact with the insecticide because if they were sprayed by the insecticide, they will die. with that rationale, why wouldn't the bugs disperse with steam? If you have cracks and crevices, the bugs can live there whether or not you choose to use steam or insecticide. The insecticide does not cause them to move into cracks and crevices as they may be already living there. In my situation, I have not seen any bed bugs but have gotten bites and this is why I suspect I have them. I have no evidence on my mattress, box spring, bed board, dresser/drawers, etc. of bed bugs; so most likely if I have bugs, they are living in the cracks and crevices being that I have already washed and dried all items in my room and steamed anything that cannot be washed.

    So hypothetically, if the bugs were living in crevices already, what difference would it make to use a spray vs. steam to kill them? if this is the case, they will disperse to a place where they are already living so I really don't understand the argument here.

    Also, professionals also use insecticides to kill bed bugs; these insecticides DO NOT have pyrethrins like most common over-the-counter insecticides do. So the professionals are contradicting themselves about use of sprays when they use it themselves.

    Why is it that some ppl have gotten professional steaming treatment and still continue to have bed bugs then?

    I'm a little reluctant to always go by what professionals have to say because they're in the business to make money from ppl like us who have this problem. also until the "professionals" have experience using the insecticides that are contained in the Raid Bed Bug spray, then I cannot blindly take their advice.

    In conclusion, if you choose not to use this spray, then do not try to discourage others from trying this method particularly because you nor the "professionals" do not have any specific evidence that THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT does not work.

  8. 2r4m

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 20:50:22
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    scaredy cat - 1 hour ago  » 

    - 7 minutes ago  » 

    In my situation, I have not seen any bed bugs but have gotten bites and this is why I suspect I have them. I have no evidence on my mattress, box spring, bed board, dresser/drawers, etc. of bed bugs; so most likely if I have bugs, they are living in the cracks and crevices being that I have already washed and dried all items in my room and steamed anything that cannot be washed.

    I'm a little reluctant to always go by what professionals have to say because they're in the business to make money from ppl like us who have this problem. also until the "professionals" have experience using the insecticides that are contained in the Raid Bed Bug spray, then I cannot blindly take their advice.
    In conclusion, if you choose not to use this spray, then do not try to discourage others from trying this method particularly because you nor the "professionals" do not have any specific evidence that THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT does not work.

    Although im glad your issue is being resolved. Its not fair to tell people in this forum to not trust the professionals and use this product. Your telling people in this forum to use a product when you yourself just said you DONT have evidence that you have Bed Bugs.

    Your using it, Yes
    Your seeing results, Yes

    But you don't even know if what you have is bed bugs. Yes we shouldn't discourage ppl from trying different methods. But you shouldn't encourage ppl to try your method, if you don't have a confirm case of bed bugs.

    So I speak for myself that I will not take advice unless I know your fighting the same battle as me, which is bed bugs. Which was confirmed by a professional. But its great that your getting rid of whatever it is you have.

  9. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 21:42:34
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    2r4m - 24 minutes ago  » 

    scaredy cat - 1 hour ago  » 

    - 7 minutes ago  » 

    In my situation, I have not seen any bed bugs but have gotten bites and this is why I suspect I have them. I have no evidence on my mattress, box spring, bed board, dresser/drawers, etc. of bed bugs; so most likely if I have bugs, they are living in the cracks and crevices being that I have already washed and dried all items in my room and steamed anything that cannot be washed.
    I'm a little reluctant to always go by what professionals have to say because they're in the business to make money from ppl like us who have this problem. also until the "professionals" have experience using the insecticides that are contained in the Raid Bed Bug spray, then I cannot blindly take their advice.
    In conclusion, if you choose not to use this spray, then do not try to discourage others from trying this method particularly because you nor the "professionals" do not have any specific evidence that THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT does not work.

    Although im glad your issue is being resolved. Its not fair to tell people in this forum to not trust the professionals and use this product. Your telling people in this forum to use a product when you yourself just said you DONT have evidence that you have Bed Bugs.
    Your using it, Yes
    Your seeing results, Yes
    But you don't even know if what you have is bed bugs. Yes we shouldn't discourage ppl from trying different methods. But you shouldn't encourage ppl to try your method, if you don't have a confirm case of bed bugs.
    So I speak for myself that I will not take advice unless I know your fighting the same battle as me, which is bed bugs. Which was confirmed by a professional. But its great that your getting rid of whatever it is you have.

    [name calling deleted by admin]

    Before you respond to something, first take the time to READ it. If you did, you would have read that I also used steam. So YOU should not discourage people to consider using Raid if you do not have evidence that it doesn't work. I never said that ppl shouldn't use other methods, but they should consider Raid without dismissing it because of what some "professional" who themselves have issues with eradicating the problem.

    YOU shouldn't discourage people from trying other methods yourself by saying they shouldn't use a product that you know nothing about. What about the people who have used the conventional methods to no avail. You're not helpful at all and very selfish because you rather ppl suffer than help them.

    Also, as far as my comments about professionals, I was responding to feelinghelplesswith3babies who reiterated he/she was told by a professional not to use sprays; this pro probably didn't personally evaluate his/her situation.

    btw, why would you take blanket advice from someone (professionals) who has not come to your home to evaluate YOUR particular situation? That is a very ignorant thing to do and to encourage others to do.

    You are probably a "professional" or know someone who is and you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of: discouraging.

    You probably ordered the Raid as soon as you read this post, lol.

    Also, not everyone can afford a professional so don't you dare tell ppl that they must seek help from someone on the Internet who claims to be a pro. How do you even know that these ppl are licensed? That's very ignorant of you.

    And about me not seeing a bed bug, it's you and the other members of this site who insist that ppl who receive bites undoubtedly have bed bugs because you want everyone to suffer like you are. so I am writing on behalf of those who can't afford a pro, really need help, and I don't want ppl to suffer just because I am.

    this forum is to share ideas and too many ppl on here try to discourage ppl based on what some anonymous Internet pro has told them. because I'm not using your method, it has caused an uproar-Why? because I discovered something that you haven't?

    there a hundreds of posts and reviews about not using sprays on this site and the Internet generally so if you refuse to use this method after educating yourself, don't use it. but don't come here and tell ppl not to use other methods simply because you or your "professional" friends haven't done so. Who made you God?

    if you read my initial comments it states the reason why I felt THIS PARTICULAR SPRAY was different than the conventional sprays and this is the reason that I considered using and it; since this IS a forum to share ideas, I felt that this was an idea I wanted to share. I didn't ask for anyone's advice about using it just offered a suggestion and I find that there are ppl who are posting here causing drama for no reason when you're opinion was NOT requested and is NOT welcomed.

    That is all.....

  10. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 21:51:35
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    IN ADDITION TO MY RESPONSE TO FEELINGHELPLESSWITH3BABIES (i.e., see above where I stated "Also, as far as my comments about professionals, I was responding to feelinghelplesswith3babies who reiterated he/she was told by a professional not to use sprays; this pro probably didn't personally evaluate his/her situation"), he/she didn't say that the pros advised against not using this product which has only hit the market last month. so until the "pros" advice against it or if non-pros give it negative reviews, then I will not suggest it to others.

    so 2r4m, you need to have several seats and since you can't read properly, I taken it upon myself to read you up, down, sideways, and above (google it).

  11. scaredy cat

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    Sun Sep 23 2012 22:03:34
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    feelinghelplesswith3 babies - 3 hours ago  » 
    Well from what I've read from the experts on here. Field is much different than lab results. They say that foggers disperse them as well as insecticide sprays. If it was that simple than I think we'd all.use those products. In the lab they have no where to hide but in real life they can hide in many cracks and crevices. I think the steaming works better. There is bedlam that cines in a can. I know for a fact that works but its like $20 bucks a can. My 2 cents

    Also, if field is much different than lab results, why have most ppl been discouraged from using foggers and why do the "professionals" advice ppl not to use sprays and foggers based on this study? I've read comments from pros who refer to this study but if the field is different than the lab, why are they even using this study as evidence in their argument?

    You're another person who needs to learn how to formulate your arguments better and improve your reasoning skills. smh

  12. 2r4m

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 23:21:10
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    I won't fight with a person who wants to insult others. I will just say to anyone reading this persons post. Do not take the advice of someone who doesn't have a confirmed case of bed bugs.

  13. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 23:22:48
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    2r4m - 42 seconds ago  » 
    I won't fight with a person who wants to insult others. I will just say to anyone reading this persons post. Do not take the advice of someone who doesn't have a confirmed case of bed bugs.

    And anyone who reads this post, do not take advice from a person who is having extreme issues in resolving his problems.

  14. scaredy cat

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 23:25:23
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    2r4m - 2 minutes ago  » 
    I won't fight with a person who wants to insult others. I will just say to anyone reading this persons post. Do not take the advice of someone who doesn't have a confirmed case of bed bugs.

    And I didn't insult you, you do not possess the skills to effectively argue your point. You should have read my post thorough before you responded, that's why your comments were weakened by my response. so take your 2 cents somewhere else and give your weak "advice" to some other post. kick rocks

  15. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Sun Sep 23 2012 23:52:36
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    Scaredy everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum I am not an expert I just speak from experience. I was not advised by a pco on the foggers and sprays. I've read this from David Cain, Paul bello and killer queen to name a few. Bed bugs cause mental distress and if one cannot afford professional help than reading the FAQ's here helps a lot. If raid works than that's great . I am happy that they are getting rid of their bed bug problem. I however am the manager in my building and am greatful the owner was willing to spend whatever to get rid of the bed bugs here. You are however coming off as if you are attacking comments that don't persay agree with yours. Sorry but that is how your coming off. We are all on this forum to help one another. We follow those who have mad experience in this field like David Cain, Paul bello and killer queen. This site is very helpful and I've learned a lot. I too used the steamer and that also helped but the residuals left from my treatments also did the job quite well. And as if your 2 cents are any better. I suppose what ever rocks your boat . If it makes you happy.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Sep 24 2012 2:13:15
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    scardey cat,

    The name-calling above was deleted. It's against the forum rules. Please read them.

    You do have a right to say you think a product worked for you, but others have the right to say they think that's bad advice.

    Everyone,

    Try to focus on criticizing the ideas rather than on criticizing people.

    I would also note that I am completely confused by this thread. Sprays and foggers are NOT the same thing at all. It sounds like scardey cat is saying she used a SPRAY. So how does this in any way invalidate the advice not to use FOGGERS?

    No one should be using foggers. An OTC spray like RAID may work but better products are surely available even if you must self treat.

    When it comes to sprays, people who know bed bugs tell us that knowledge of how to use products is way more important than which products you use. (That does not, of course, extend to products which can exacerbate problems and don't solve them, like foggers.)

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  17. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Sep 24 2012 3:28:20
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    Thanks no bugs. Yes sprays are diferent than foggers. I stand corrected on that.

  18. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 3:41:40
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    feelinghelplesswith3 babies - 6 minutes ago  » 
    Thanks no bugs. Yes sprays are diferent than foggers. I stand corrected on that.

    Hi feelinghelpless,

    I think the confusion runs through the entire thread, actually.

    scaredy cat refers to the "well-known Ohio State University study on foggers and sprays that claim to kill bed bugs"-- in fact, the study only looked at foggers, not sprays. The title is,

    Ineffectiveness of Over-the-Counter Total-Release Foggers Against the Bed Bug (Heteroptera: Cimicidae)
    (emphasis added)

    Here's an abstract. As of right now you can download a full-text PDF for free from the ESA page.

    There's a Bedbugger.com post about the research (which predated the publication) here.

    And our FAQ on foggers is also relevant.

  19. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 3:52:42
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    Yes I remember reading those when I was trying to figure out what to do about my situation. I used rubbing alcohol for my initial self treatment. Thanks again.

  20. 2r4m

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Mon Sep 24 2012 8:41:53
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    While you guys see that the miscommunication was whether it was spray or a fogger. My problem was that this person doesn't have a confirm case of bed bugs, and stated themselves that they never found any evidence. I'm glad that the product is working for whatever Scardeycat has.

    We are all on this forum for the same reason, which is looking for help with our situations. This forum is a great tool to help all of us, when others don't understand. I wish everyone the best of luck.

  21. bed-bugscouk

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 9:24:36
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    Hi,

    To wade in here, over the counter (OTC) aerosol products do not work for bedbugs other than as contact killers where alcohol would be a better solution to use. The main reason for this is just as with foggers if you set them off in a bedbug area yes they will kill the contact ones but the others tend to disperse to seek refuges in more unusual locations.

    This simple fact is used by me and my team to identify when people have used such products literally as we walk in the room because the locations that bedbugs harbour are not where they usually would be.

    Now to be frank it does not matter what these cans are labelled as or how they are marketed they simply do not work. We believe its not the active ingredient that is the issue its likley to be the repellents and in active ingredients.

    I fully appreciate that you may have read it on some website somewhere that they can work but the reality is that those with experience all confirm it is not a solution and can make the matter worse. If you want to follow the advice of that website then seek support from that website because I can assure you they will not be able to support you in the way that people do around here by offering ID's and support out of the goodness of their own hearts.

    Therefore I hope that people looking at this solution will read this whole thread and understand the full tested implications of what you advocate and do not make the same mistakes. Frankly if bedbugs was as simple as spraying a can the issue would never have gotten this bad.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bedbug infestations in domestic and commercial settings. The patent numbers are GB2463953 and GB2470307.

    "Astral Entomologist - because so many people say my ideas are out of this world"
  22. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 12:22:33
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    David Cain thank you for that.

  23. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 16:38:10
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    2r4m - 7 hours ago  » 
    While you guys see that the miscommunication was whether it was spray or a fogger. My problem was that this person doesn't have a confirm case of bed bugs, and stated themselves that they never found any evidence.

    Thanks 2r4m,

    I did notice that and agree it's very problematic.

    It was late and I did not want to engage in a longer discussion so I chose to address only the fact that the discussion was mixing up sprays and foggers.

  24. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 16:41:31
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    Thanks, David!

  25. bed-bugscouk

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    Mon Sep 24 2012 16:48:27
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    No probs it's been a core message since start for us because let's face it education to avoid this common mistake makes it easier for people to resolve infestations. It's a win all round but sadly the wheels of commerce mean that it's unlikely that they will come off the market when so Manu units are sold.

    David

  26. cilecto

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    Tue Sep 25 2012 17:36:07
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    A few points:

    It looks like the Raid BB product is a recent development. For a long time, SCJohnson/Raid did not have a BB-labeled consumer product in the USA. This one appears to have the same active ingredients as a few other OTC products; Ortho Home Defense Max aerosol, SprayWay Good-Night, Pronto and the "old" formula BedLam.

    Spraying, fogging and steaming are very different applications. Fogging is releasing a mist into a room, in the hope it will penetrate where it needs to go.

    Spraying is application to a surface where you expect bed bugs to be, or to cross later (if using a powder). Spraying may kill bed bugs, but most will not kill all eggs (note "kills eggs" does not mean "kills all eggs"). Both OTC and pro products often contain pyrethroid-based ingredients.

    In steaming, you apply very hot vapor directly to surfaces where you know BB and eggs to be or expect them to be at the time of application. Steaming will kill bed bugs and eggs on contact.

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  27. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Sep 25 2012 17:44:18
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    Hi,

    In a job today copious amounts of aerosol had been used on 5+ occasions.

    I will ask the undertaker to take some pictures with me tomorrow to show you exactly what this can do in a room, it's not good and what should have taken an hour took 3.

    David

  28. bedbuganxiety

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    Tue Sep 25 2012 19:11:09
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    So, I would like to be very clear on the subject of aerosol products. When saying not to use them, is the meaning not to use any and all aerosol products (meaning not even bedlam plus, etc. which many PCO's use and can be purchased from online professional pest sites)? Or not to use the OTC products such as Raid, etc. that can be bought at Walmart, etc. Or by "aerosol" are you all just talking about not using foggers, which I know is a very bad way to spread them. Just want to very clear and understand whether using something like bedlam plus or even the "coming soon" temprid aerosol would be a good idea or not.

  29. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Sep 25 2012 19:43:39
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    Hi,

    It is the OTC products like raid and insectrol in the UK. The different regulations in the EU mean that we do not have Bedlam and Temprid so I can't asses them.

    I would also note that I often use an aerosol form of DE in my work which once you get used to using can make light consistent application much easier even in the most awkward of locations.

    Yes anything that fogs is a definite not a good idea. More so because this type of delivery just does not work. If you can't get the product into the places where bedbugs are then a contact killer is worse than useless.

    David

  30. bedbuganxiety

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    Tue Sep 25 2012 19:55:23
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    Thanks, David! It would be nice to have the aerosol form of DE here in the US. I wonder if having that available here would help more people not douse their homes with piles of DE?

  31. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Sep 27 2012 13:17:01
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    Hi,

    As promised here is an image of what the effect of OTC aerosol sprays is on bedbug populations.

    In this room faecal traces can be seen on the wall ceiling junction on the opposite side of the room to where the bed is. This is such a strong pattern with bedbugs that we now routinely tell people what they have used rather than just asking them for the list.

    ceilingtraces

    Its not impossible to repair the damage that such treatments cause but it certainly makes the job of anyone coming in to fix it a lot harder since you cant assume the bedbugs will be concentrated and following normal behaviour as clearly they will not be in odd places.

    In short if it makes the problem worse don't do it because it will always result in your suffering from bedbugs for longer than you would want.

    David

  32. feelinghelplesswith3 babies

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    Thu Sep 27 2012 13:37:45
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    That's. The same thing that happened in my dads place. He used raid for roaches thinking that it worked and subsequently he spread them all in the ceiling and even the kitchen which was connected to where he slept and spent most of his time at. It doesn't work.

  33. storm23

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    Posted 2 years ago
    Thu Sep 27 2012 14:30:34
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    David, thanks for the photo, but I’m slightly confused now. I’m wondering if it’s possible to have fecal spots in the wall-ceiling junction when you haven’t sprayed anything at all? I have spotting like that above my bed in the joint of wall and ceiling and haven’t done any DIY treatments at all for anything. One of the bugs I found in there was on the window covering at the very top of the window, just a foot to a foot and a half below the spots that run from the corner of the room, to about the middle of the wall (stops about center, which is even with the middle of where my bed sits below - basically, above the side I sleep on). Is it just the fact that they were on the opposite of the room that tells you that someone sprayed and they scattered there, or them being up there, anywhere, in the wall-ceiling joint? I don’t know if it’s “normal” or not to see spots up there at all. There’s more spots up there than I’ve found anywhere else in the house (just 2 small areas found, one on the bed’s dust skirt, and one area on couch), so just wondering since I’ve never sprayed or done any treatment in there yet.

  34. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Sep 27 2012 14:43:06
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    Hi storm23,

    This thread relates to the use of raid and OTC aerosols. If you have not used them then this thread does not relate to your situation.

    Best not to read too much into your situation if you have not used them.

    David

  35. storm23

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    Thu Sep 27 2012 14:58:42
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    My apologies. I thought it was semi-related since you were using the photo to point out that spraying scattered them to the ceiling. So I was just asking if it's a normal place to see them even if you don't spray.

    I didn't want to clutter up the board with a new post to ask when I was referring to you pointing out fecal stains on the ceiling in this one. I'll make a new thread next time. Sorry.

  36. Jolene

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    The Raid Bed bug and flea spray has EXACTLY the same active ingredients as Bedlam. I got some at Home Depot today for around $8 per can. Had a friend coming over and found out last week he has BB. Now I am treating after finding 2 on my sofa and one on my recliner. My son helped me steam them and I got up last night inspected them be LED flashlight. Other than the 6 or 7 fecal spots on couch found nothing more. We tore the dust cover off and steamed all up inside the couch. The recliner is very open underneath and back lifts off. We checked all the boards inside both except for top board in back of couch and I poured a stream of alcohol along this. We saw no other fecal spots on either after very thorough inspection. Now I will start the whole process. But the raid is the same. While at Home Depot I pulled up bedlam active ingredients and compared. Same in same proportions. Did not check the inactive ingredients.

  37. MadSam

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    I'm totally confused. is raid bed bug and flea spray good to use? was looking to spray a futon frame with them that isn't being slept on right now, the room has a lot of DE in it, around the wall edges, under and around the bed frame.
    was going to spray tonight on the frame, let that settle, then dust DE on the futon frame.

    any advice?

  38. Nobugsonme

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    MadSam - 1 hour ago  » 
    I'm totally confused. is raid bed bug and flea spray good to use? was looking to spray a futon frame with them that isn't being slept on right now, the room has a lot of DE in it, around the wall edges, under and around the bed frame.
    was going to spray tonight on the frame, let that settle, then dust DE on the futon frame.
    any advice?

    Madsam,

    The only actual bed bug expert participating in this thread (as far as I can see-- but someone correct me if I missed anyone) is David Cain who is based in the UK.
    And he's telling you not to use this type of product (aerosol).

    Other sprays which are not aerosols may be okay. P Bello is another forum expert who is resident in the US who often gives treatment advice here, so you might see what he has to say.

    We have a DE faq which may also be helpful.

  39. RaccoonEyes

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    Sun Dec 15 2013 20:05:02
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    @David
    The back of the aerosol can for Raid says that if it's for bed bugs to spray directly onto surfaces as opposed to just in the air. If it's concentrated as opposed to dispersed would that make more of a difference as far as them migrating to other parts of the home goes?

    I'm curious because on my floor places have already been bombed the heck out of so I had already found a bunch of eggs that had fallen from the bottom of the counter into my silverware drawer after the first treatment in my kitchen so that's a weird place in itself.

  40. needrest

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    Sun Dec 15 2013 20:25:18
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    Hi, Could you send in picture of eggs? Location sounds wrong for bb,s. Experts will be able to tell what kind of eggs they are.

  41. RaccoonEyes

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    needrest - 8 minutes ago  » 
    Hi, Could you send in picture of eggs? Location sounds wrong for bb,s. Experts will be able to tell what kind of eggs they are.

    This was a week and a half ago, they are long gone. And no the location sounds right given that my building has been bugbombed into oblivion, the surface in my drawers were wood, I live in a studio so anywhere I sleep is within a couple/few meters of them. Along the same wall they traveled freely along the baseboards and carpets for lord knows how long before I moved in, and various other suites surrounding me has had them. I've already had one I had as a sample as well as an exoskeleton analyzed as it being a bedbug and the eggs I saw matched pictures I've found on here.

    The guy working probably knocked them down from along the top when he put a bunch of my heavy books down on the counter. Either way I flushed them down the toilet lol.

  42. RaccoonEyes

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    Sun Dec 15 2013 20:46:31
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    P Bello - 1 minute ago  » 
    Yes, I'd not expect to find bed bug eggs in a kitchen drawer.
    Additionally, the D-Phenothrin in the raid max product is also known as sumithrin which is a pyrethroid insecticide. The other AI is MGL 264 which is a synergist type product. Synergists are used to enhance the insecticidal activity of the insecticide they are combined with.
    Hope this helps ! pjb

    I keep reading your initials as PBJ (like peanut butter & jelly)
    I have a thread I posted with what the Raid I purchased contains. But regarding this thread the Raid Max would be fine then if used as directed?
    (my other threads explain my situation a bit better in regards to the eggs/bugs being strange places)

  43. P Bello

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    Sun Dec 15 2013 20:55:35
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    Well, it's pjb.

    But, there are those who call me peanut butter & jelly too.

    That product would be "somewhat ok" in that I'd expect it to kill those bugs that received a direct application however, it's not a "pro-type product" nor are it's active ingredients included in any of the leading pro products either.

    What may be rather sad is that this company is of significant size in the retail market that it would have the ability to market a decent retail use product for bed bugs however, they've yet to do it.

    So, would it work?

    Probably, but not very well in the long run as compared to the pro type products currently available.

    Hope this helps ! pjb

    As a consulting entomologist I provide services for entities such as property managers, health/housing/emergency depts, schools, hospitality/resort/cruise industry, homeowners, food service, retail, pest professionals & product manufacturers. I recommend only efficacious methodologies, products and equipment. Professional relations have included Actisol, AMVAC, Atrix, BASF, Bayer, Catchmaster, FMC, GMT, Eaton, MattressSafe, Nisus, ProTeam, Rockwell, Syngenta & Woodstream. No compensation for product sales occurs. As inventor of Knight Safe bed bug sleep tent provides a royalty.
  44. P Bello

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    Sun Dec 15 2013 22:15:52
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    Crap, you said "province" didn't you.

    That means your in Canadia huh?

    Which also means you don't have access to many of the products used in the US.

    Check out what products you may be able to purchase online in your area as well.

    pjb

    Admin note: RaccoonEyes' post was accidentally deleted below. Here it is:

    Sun Dec 15 2013 23:12:44

    RaccoonEyes - 3 days ago  
    Alas I totally don't. If I purchase them I have to make sure it has a PCP Registration number otherwise it's totally illegal for me to use.
    I have to move though. There's no possible way the landlord would pay for proper treatment in all the surrounding suites and if they leave me I'll just be reinfested.

  45. bed-bugscouk

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    Mon Dec 16 2013 15:55:39
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    Hi,

    Good control even in multi unit housing does not require chemicals, in fact its often faster resolved without their use as even the academics are admitting them have low efficacy in terms of residual activity.

    I would strongly suggest that you educate and check with all adjoining neighbours and seek a solution together to prevent chemical based dispersal between units.

    Its not about finding a heavier hammer to hit bedbugs with, its about going back to basic principles and not relying upon something that may or may not work.

    David

  46. P Bello

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    Mon Dec 16 2013 18:39:48
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    Obviously few folks recognize the power and tenacity of The Coon !

    You needn't worry about which products are available however, should you wish to know what you can do to help yourself with what you have available to you, then you can contact Mysterio and learn his ways.

    Additionally, and this falls under the "believe it or not" category; pest strips are marketed in your country under a different name.

    Other methodologies available to The Coon include: vacuuming, steaming, mattress encasements and others.

    Please survey the pest products landscape available to you and advise what your choices are.

    We can then develop a viable action plan to protect you from bed bugs in your own home.

    Hope this helps ! paul b.

  47. P Bello

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    Sorry, but, I have several questions regarding the following assertion:

    " . . . in fact its often faster resolved without their use as even the academics are admitting them have low efficacy in terms of residual activity."

    1. Please fully explain how multi-family bed bug infestations are "often" resolved faster without the use of pesticides ?

    2. Please define your meaning of the word "often" in the context asserted above?

    3. And "often" by whom and how?

    4. Please define what you mean by the level of infestation which can be resolved faster as asserted?
    a. Are these full blown bed bug ground zero infestations where thousands of bed bugs are found?
    b. Are these initial stage type infestations where say just ten or less bed bugs are present?
    c. Are these multi-family housing infestations where the following number of apartment units are infested: 1%, 5%, 10% 37% 84% ?
    d. Are any of these locations multi-family accounts where over 500, 800, 1,500 or even 2,000 units are present?

    5. Please specify which "academics" you are quoting above?
    a. Please specify the date, publication and/or presentation you're quoting from as well as the event this was witnessed at?

    6. Please specify which insecticide products and active ingredients these "academics" are referring to above?
    a. Do they mean all of them or just some of them?

    7. What do you mean by "good control" ?
    a. Is this 100% control or something less than 100%?
    b. Is this long term control or something less than that?

    Taken at face value this statement:

    "Good control even in multi unit housing does not require chemicals, in fact its often faster resolved without their use as even the academics are admitting them have low efficacy in terms of residual activity."

    Is unreasonable.

    It is unreasonable because:

    It is overly broad.

    It fails to recognize the variety of differences which may exist from account to account and infestation to infestation.

    It mischaracterizes all infestations as being similar in severity and degree of difficulty to attain control.

    However, the following portion of the statement above:

    "Good control even in multi unit housing does not require chemicals . . ."

    Is technically correct. We could argue that "good control" could be achieved using vacuums, steamers and heat alone.

    However, based upon multi-family housing experience and observation at infested locations here in the US, it is difficult at best to assert this position across all account situations.

    Additionally, at some locations, such as Section Eight type housing locations, we're often battling bed bugs, cockroaches and sometimes rodents all at the same time. BTW, this is good fun for those of us who enjoy this work.

    However, we'd not be trying to service such account locations without the use of our entire pest management arsenal which includes the use of various pesticides as well as non-chemical methodologies too.

    Have a nice bug free day folks ! paul b.

  48. RaccoonEyes

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    Tue Dec 17 2013 2:44:03
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    bed-bugscouk - 10 hours ago  » 
    Hi,
    Good control even in multi unit housing does not require chemicals, in fact its often faster resolved without their use as even the academics are admitting them have low efficacy in terms of residual activity.
    I would strongly suggest that you educate and check with all adjoining neighbours and seek a solution together to prevent chemical based dispersal between units.
    Its not about finding a heavier hammer to hit bedbugs with, its about going back to basic principles and not relying upon something that may or may not work.
    David

    Hey, David.
    Actually in my case as I found out today- I finally made the guy who has been working on my unit spill on who has had bedbugs on my floor after mentioning someone in the building straight out told me they had Bedbugs 3 times since living here and someone down the hall has them as well. Right away he knew who I meant and he said her name. Apparently the woman before me, the guy beside me, and the lady in question were best friends and the woman in question always brought them in because she would find used junk people had pitched. This is the same woman who brought me over a jacket (which I bagged, laundered as soon as I finished speaking to her- this was prior to her telling me she had them 3 times).

    The woman before me was a slob (I've seen the before they fixed the suite up lol) so if BBs were transferred between suites this would have been an ideal home for them. The guy working on my suite told me he spoke to the landlord about bringing in proper treatments because doing it suite by suite at random is getting nowhere. I'm not sure if she will do it or not but in the mean time before I throw in the towel I asked the guy to remove the current mass of DE (bleh) and replace it with a smaller amount, but enough to shred any intruders from coming in/shred any freeloaders. And he's going to do a second actual treatment. I also told him I was uncomfortable with the use of bugbombs.

  49. RaccoonEyes

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    Tue Dec 17 2013 2:55:59
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    P Bello - 8 hours ago  » 
    Obviously few folks recognize the power and tenacity of The Coon !
    You needn't worry about which products are available however, should you wish to know what you can do to help yourself with what you have available to you, then you can contact Mysterio and learn his ways.
    Additionally, and this falls under the "believe it or not" category; pest strips are marketed in your country under a different name.
    Other methodologies available to The Coon include: vacuuming, steaming, mattress encasements and others.
    Please survey the pest products landscape available to you and advise what your choices are.
    We can then develop a viable action plan to protect you from bed bugs in your own home.
    Hope this helps ! paul b.

    The Coon's checklist:
    Vacuum with washable filter- check
    Mattress encasement- Check- but after watching that lecture about zipper openings- even though mine has a cover I'm gonna buy some duct tape just to make sure it doesn't pop open.
    Copious amounts of change for laundry- Check
    100 Construction Garbage bags- Check
    The guy working on my suite is gonna check if he has any Pest Strips. My previous reply to David has some more info on what I asked the guy to do.
    If it was up to Mysterio- He would probably use Chinese Chalk which is bad and I would never use. Apparently my Great Aunt used to use it in the building she used to maintain and I thought to myself "Lol she would." considering she knows all the sketchy places where you would find that stuff.- (Disclaimer: For the love of god don't go searching for it.)

    Thanks, Paul! I'll keep you posted.
    -The Coon

  50. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Dec 17 2013 8:10:45
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    Hi Paul,

    I have answered your questions below, please try to keep conversations civil as there are aspects of your posts at present that I am sure I am not alone in finding unnecessarily unpleasant. I appreciate that what I say is challenging for you at times but respectfully I have been focusing on this issue for longer than you and have thus had more time to get the the key issues.

    1. Please fully explain how multi-family bed bug infestations are "often" resolved faster without the use of pesticides ?

    In my experience and that of some others the dispersal that can and often occurs as a result of insecticide use means that infestations are more diffused, more likley to spread unit to unit and be transferred through a reliance on chemical control. In short the bedbug that we kill on the day does not have the ability to spread and does not take time to succumb to the metabolic action of the insecticide.

    2. Please define your meaning of the word "often" in the context asserted above?

    "Often" as in statistically more times than it does not. To be clear green treatments clear more consistently and reliably than chemical based strategies.

    3. And "often" by whom and how?

    In our case by my staff but increasingly by other pest control professionals who are adapting their own versions of what we do. The how depends on the person and the situation they are faced with as rather than teach a prescriptive "you MUST do this" and "you MUST do that" approach we react to what we find in the infestation we are working on. A detailed explanation of the how could take weeks to write to take into account all the variables.

    4. Please define what you mean by the level of infestation which can be resolved faster as asserted?
    a. Are these full blown bed bug ground zero infestations where thousands of bed bugs are found?

    Increasingly yes, a classic case would be a 38,000 bedbug infestation where in less than a days treatment time we only missed 5 bedbugs from the initial population.

    b. Are these initial stage type infestations where say just ten or less bed bugs are present?

    The method was originally envisaged for low to medium level infestations but we have found that it works more reliably than chemical based control so increasingly use it at all levels of infestation.

    c. Are these multi-family housing infestations where the following number of apartment units are infested: 1%, 5%, 10% 37% 84% ?

    In some cases yes all the above percentages have applied as well as 100% infested sites.

    d. Are any of these locations multi-family accounts where over 500, 800, 1,500 or even 2,000 units are present?

    Yes in some cases these locations have up to 2,000 homes connected with them, others are smaller but we have one client who has what you would refer to as entire housing projects under their control.

    5. Please specify which "academics" you are quoting above?

    The figure of 60% residual effectiveness was attributed to Alvero Romero by numerous people at the recent global bedbug summit derived from his research into product efficacy.

    a. Please specify the date, publication and/or presentation you're quoting from as well as the event this was witnessed at?

    See above, there were maybe 200 - 600 witnesses.

    6. Please specify which insecticide products and active ingredients these "academics" are referring to above?
    a. Do they mean all of them or just some of them?

    The presentation was based on testing as many of those available in the US market as possible to bench mark efficacy.

    7. What do you mean by "good control" ?
    a. Is this 100% control or something less than 100%?

    As you know my goal is 100% eradication and 100% reliability, the only people I know who speak of 3 treatments and then you are done even if the case is still active are based int he US. The solid codes of best practice that the rest of the world follow make that the clear and only acceptable goal.

    b. Is this long term control or something less than that?

    Eradication is eradication, when they are gone they are gone Paul, its as simple as that. However we help people avoid future issues through education and efficacious monitoring as part of our QC process. This ensures that should they inadvertently become exposed again then a simple and cost effective solution is already in place that often negates the need for extensive treatment.

    I am sorry that you feel it was unreasonable as a statement but respectfully the correct course of action would have been to seek the answers to your questions rather than making a statement that others could equally call sweeping and bold. The fact remains that you cant form an opinion on something that you do not fully understand and that is where I will choose to leave this.

    I strongly advise anyone reading this to look up the research work of Elizabeth Milne et al to better understand where I am coming from here because the parallels between the pesticide industry and the tobacco industry are strikingly similar.

    David

  51. bed-bugscouk

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    Tue Dec 17 2013 8:13:47
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    Hi,

    Sorry but c**n is considered to be a highly derogatory term in the EU and one of those words which most people feel needs to be left in the past due to its racial overtones.

    David

  52. RaccoonEyes

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    Tue Dec 17 2013 10:24:55
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    bed-bugscouk - 2 hours ago  » 
    Hi,
    Sorry but c**n is considered to be a highly derogatory term in the EU and one of those words which most people feel needs to be left in the past due to its racial overtones.
    David

    No worries. Knowing South Park that was probably it's intention which is why Cartman was made a Raccoon Super Hero as opposed to something else.

  53. bed-bugscouk

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    RaccoonEyes - 23 minutes ago
    No worries. Knowing South Park that was probably it's intention which is why Cartman was made a Raccoon Super Hero as opposed to something else.

    I fully appreciate that no offense was meant but some things are best avoided and I am often reminded that for every person who posts on the forum 10+ read it and at times we need to set extremely high standards.

    David

    Admin note: RaccoonEyes' post was accidentally deleted below. Here it is:

    Tue Dec 17 2013 19:44:02

    RaccoonEyes - 1 day ago  


    I fully appreciate that no offense was meant but some things are best avoided and I am often reminded that for every person who posts on the forum 10+ read it and at times we need to set extremely high standards.
    David

    for sure. i just meant "No worries" as in i won't do it again.

    Paul Bello's post below this was also accidentally deleted. Here it is:

    Wed Dec 18 2013 2:42:52

    P Bello - 22 hours ago
    "The Coon" is a cartoon character from South Park which was clearly pointed out previously so, cool your jets. Why is everything an argument with you?
    Here in the US the learning curve has been greatly reduced and increasingly more professional companies are now capable of attaining 100% control with their initial service visit.
    You continue to site chemical applications and other factors as causation of population dispersal however, it is impossible for a population of zero to disperse.
    Those who are implementing comprehensive and thorough service protocols are having no problems in resolving bed bug problems for their customers.
    You're also ignoring Dr. Mike Potter's publication (PCT Magazine) where those pest professionals who had "older chemistries" (i.e. OPs, carbamates & others) available for use in their countries reported bed bug infestations were resolved with little trouble at all using chemical applications.
    Overly broad statements inherently cannot successfully address the various exceptions.
    And, despite the willingness of others to describe and explain viable service protocols on this forum and others, your responses are noticeably weak regarding the "how to" aspects and details of actual bed bug control.
    This is not rocket science and there are no secrets to doing this work successfully.
    Here in the US the pest management industry is highly regulated by various layers of government agencies. As such, pest professionals must conduct their work in compliance with regulatory codifications in order to maintain their professional licensure within the jurisdiction of the state(s) in which they operate. Pest elimination work (i.e. products, devices, methodologies and techniques) therefore is also regulated which means that there are only so many ways in which this work is done.
    Over time, the US pest management industry gravitates and/or evolves to the best adopted practices and the entire industry progresses. Always has, always will.
    Simply stated, you're working in the UK where many pertinent factors are different than here in the US. As such, some of your points are simply not applicable here.
    Representing your approach as "the best or only viable approach" is an incorrect assertion and alienates many.
    Doing so also ignores and discounts the success and proficiencies of countless other pest professionals who have been in business decades longer than you here in the US.
    As an example, Arrow Exterminating in Lynbrook, NY was founded in 1945. They were doing bed bug work in Metro NY before you were even born. They have a team of nearly 100 technicians working every day. They have their own well trained K9 teams and specialized bed bug technicians.
    These folks are doing more comprehensive bed bug work each day than you are in the UK every day, day after day. So is Magic, so is Suburban, so is AC, so is Abalon, so is Allied, so is Bell, so is Bliss and many, many, many others. These are just a few Metro NY companies. And, by the way, each of these companies have their own entomologists, technical directors and technical staff.
    Assuredly you are dedicated to your craft and your business but you are not the only one who is.
    I would encourage you to accept that there are viable methodologies beyond your own, many ways to successfully skin the proverbial cat, and to maintain an open mind rather than continuously find fault and argue with everything.
    Regretfully, pjb

    David Cain's subsequent response was also accidentally deleted and appears below:


    Wed Dec 18 2013 8:24:05

    bed-bugscouk - 16 hours ago

    P Bello - 5 hours ago  » 
    "The Coon" is a cartoon character from South Park which was clearly pointed out previously so, cool your jets. Why is everything an argument with you?

    Paul,
    Even in jest it is an offensive term and should not be used in the same way as many other racial, gender or sexuality based terms.
    I pointed out the fact that it is likley to cause offense to people and where you can be "cool" with that approach please don't assume everyone will be.
    I have addressed this as a separate issue because I feel it has no place being mixed up in a technical discussion, it is vile and repugnant hate speech and certainly not a phrase that anyone who wishes to be considered professional should use.
    It is one thing I did not mention about the summit which shocked me greatly but the prevalence of such abusive terms used by people was something of a shock to me. Given that I lived in Texas in the 90's and never encountered this level of nastiness.
    Maybe a seminar on social graces or avoiding hate speak would do the industry some good. Respectfully I would suggest you would be better served attending than presenting on this occasion.
    I will reply to the more technical elements later.
    David

  54. RaccoonEyes

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    Wed Dec 18 2013 10:24:22
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    bed-bugscouk - 41 minutes ago  » 

    P Bello - 5 hours ago  » 
    "The Coon" is a cartoon character from South Park which was clearly pointed out previously so, cool your jets. Why is everything an argument with you?

    Paul,
    Even in jest it is an offensive term and should not be used in the same way as many other racial, gender or sexuality based terms.
    I pointed out the fact that it is likley to cause offense to people and where you can be "cool" with that approach please don't assume everyone will be.
    I have addressed this as a separate issue because I feel it has no place being mixed up in a technical discussion, it is vile and repugnant hate speech and certainly not a phrase that anyone who wishes to be considered professional should use.
    It is one thing I did not mention about the summit which shocked me greatly but the prevalence of such abusive terms used by people was something of a shock to me. Given that I lived in Texas in the 90's and never encountered this level of nastiness.
    Maybe a seminar on social graces or avoiding hate speak would do the industry some good. Respectfully I would suggest you would be better served attending than presenting on this occasion.
    I will reply to the more technical elements later.
    David

    David and Paul
    As mentioned before at both of you South Park uses nasty terms on purpose for the sake of humor- they're just good at hiding it sometimes so if it's a character (Funny as heck) or not for the sake of forum rules and something irrelevant to the thread this is something that can be easily dropped.

    As for both of you, being professionals look at how many views threads you have answered and given advice in. Ones like this one contain over 16000 views in just this one thread. People come to you both for help with questions whether they are registered with the forum or not. The only difference is they're typing the question into Google instead of asking directly on here.

    Both of you provide various options for what people can do in certain situations. If someone disagrees with something or they feel that the information does not apply to them they can consider another option. Given that people have different infestations, different financial situations, and ability to cope with such things as bed bugs people willing to take the time to research will choose the right option for what they will think applies best to them.

    With that said nothing is set in stone with these pain in the butts so saying something is 100% (like in any situation BB related or not) isn't always the best idea in any situation.

    I always appreciate any information the both of you give and thank you on behalf of everyone else who you both have helped.

  55. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Wed Dec 18 2013 11:39:45
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    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Here in the US the learning curve has been greatly reduced and increasingly more professional companies are now capable of attaining 100% control with their initial service visit.

    Around the rest of the world the learning curve has been addressed through the development of standards which are independent of vested interests and developed to meet the needs of all parties from professionals to home owners and those int he hospitality industry. The US approach of attempting this has not been open and transparent and is widely considered to be something of a joke by the rest of the world.

    If as you say more companies are getting 100% control first time then I look forward to the day when the spread of bedbugs starts to reduce but I will not hold my breath for that day.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » You continue to site chemical applications and other factors as causation of population dispersal however, it is impossible for a population of zero to disperse.

    I continue to see spread of bedbugs as a result of overuse of chemical based products both on a self-treatment and professional basis. Yes its impossible for a population of zero to disperse but its also true that if a population is zero there is no need to use the chemicals either. As chemicals generally take longer than other methods if there are non then no chemicals are needed.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Those who are implementing comprehensive and thorough service protocols are having no problems in resolving bed bug problems for their customers.
    You're also ignoring Dr. Mike Potter's publication (PCT Magazine) where those pest professionals who had "older chemistries" (i.e. OPs, carbamates & others) available for use in their countries reported bed bug infestations were resolved with little trouble at all using chemical applications.

    In countries where carbamates are being extensively used we see extensive issues associated with their use. The most commonly used product in the UK is a carbamate. Your belief that a better chemistry is what is needed also flies in the face of what you are saying about 100% control. They are simply not the best tools to use to do the job with and rather than seeking to build a super-bug completely tolerant to all products we should focus on finding better ways to work.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Overly broad statements inherently cannot successfully address the various exceptions.
    And, despite the willingness of others to describe and explain viable service protocols on this forum and others, your responses are noticeably weak regarding the "how to" aspects and details of actual bed bug control.

    As I stated before our approach is dictated by the circumstances we see in front of us. If you don't make a more specific example that is all I can say as you have not given me enough to work with. With regards broad statements you may want to review your posting past before lambasting others.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    This is not rocket science and there are no secrets to doing this work successfully.

    Yes I will agree is not rocket science, its pest control but there are methods and approaches that have been developed which has yet to be widely shared so sorry there are some secrets out there, after all if there were not everyone would get the same results.

    In our case our secrets come in the form of a process based view of the issue and how we work out whats steps to take. This decision matrix was designed and is adapted based on field knowledge and as is proprietary in the same way that some of my methods have granted patents in acknowledgement of their unique nature.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Here in the US the pest management industry is highly regulated by various layers of government agencies. As such, pest professionals must conduct their work in compliance with regulatory codifications in order to maintain their professional licensure within the jurisdiction of the state(s) in which they operate. Pest elimination work (i.e. products, devices, methodologies and techniques) therefore is also regulated which means that there are only so many ways in which this work is done.

    Sorry Paul but given the number of dubious products on the US market for both home and professional use you can only conclude that this is not working as well as it could work. I can think of at least 10 products that have come off the market since launch because of errors and failures which is significant higher than the rest of the world. I guess that comes from your market lead development which has been mentioned before.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Over time, the US pest management industry gravitates and/or evolves to the best adopted practices and the entire industry progresses. Always has, always will.
    Simply stated, you're working in the UK where many pertinent factors are different than here in the US. As such, some of your points are simply not applicable here.

    I actually work in many different countries including the US and until you have dealt with bedbugs in multiple countries and on multiple continents you are not qualified to make that statement. I have and from my experience that myopic attitude has no place in this forum.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    Representing your approach as "the best or only viable approach" is an incorrect assertion and alienates many.
    Doing so also ignores and discounts the success and proficiencies of countless other pest professionals who have been in business decades longer than you here in the US.

    I represent my approach as a better way of working because it is, it focuses on the 100% eradication endpoint and achieves it is a more environmentally sensitive fashion than anything else I have seen in the world. It is not a protocol based approach where a cocktail of chemicals is required, it uses minimal resources to achieve maximum results as illustrated by our results.

    You may also want to look into the research of the US academic Elizabeth Milne who has published papers such as "Exposure to pesticides and the risk of childhood brain tumors". The reality is that the safest way to use chemical products is only as a last resort rather than a mandated part of all treatments. I have mentioned her work a few times on the forum and it has been ignored repeatedly, it is a valid area for discussion and if anyone wants to see the full papers please PM me.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    As an example, Arrow Exterminating in Lynbrook, NY was founded in 1945. They were doing bed bug work in Metro NY before you were even born. They have a team of nearly 100 technicians working every day. They have their own well trained K9 teams and specialized bed bug technicians.

    I am not saying that others are not doing work and some even good work but like all areas of research and development there were plenty of people who worked on evolution before Darwin or who worked on string theory before Stephen Hawkins but non of them prevented those break throughs from being made. Your attempt to belittle repeatedly is noted and says a lot more about you and your defense of the status quo than anything about me.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    These folks are doing more comprehensive bed bug work each day than you are in the UK every day, day after day. So is Magic, so is Suburban, so is AC, so is Abalon, so is Allied, so is Bell, so is Bliss and many, many, many others. These are just a few Metro NY companies. And, by the way, each of these companies have their own entomologists, technical directors and technical staff.
    Assuredly you are dedicated to your craft and your business but you are not the only one who is.

    Again the fact that others are working on an issue does not exclude me from coming up with solutions that are better in the same way that it does not exclude them from coming up with solutions if they are motivated to do so.

    However the key difference between me and others is that only I can claim to have been working on this one issue the longest. Simply stated when I formed my company it was the first dedicated bedbug firm of modern times and as such we have had longer looking at the one issue than anyone else.

    P Bello - 7 hours ago  » 
    I would encourage you to accept that there are viable methodologies beyond your own, many ways to successfully skin the proverbial cat, and to maintain an open mind rather than continuously find fault and argue with everything.
    Regretfully, pjb

    I could equally suggest that you try to see a world beyond your work with chemical based companies and solutions.

    I will raise my concern when an issue is presented incorrectly because I feel my responsibility to be accurate lies with my conscience and in support of the public rather than anyone who offers to pay my bills. I would rather be poor and have my ethics intact than to be tarred with the "industry" brush.

    I have stated before that if you wish to discuss facts I am happy to do so but if you continue to attempt to belittle and make snide comments I will treat you in the same fashion and will be a lot more blunt and pointed than you are.

    David

  56. frito121

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Wed Dec 18 2013 20:50:32
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    I have not posted in a while yet I certainly have been "glued" to the posts as I learn here & deal with my BB issue.

    David you are right about the volume of readers vs. posters. Having said that, I wanted to chime in for I respect and value your posts along with Paul Bello's. You & Paul's professional input has helped me through this time & it will continue to be of significant value to current & future readers. I guess I am not sure how Paul's comment ..."Obviously few folks recognize the power and tenacity of The Coon", turned into the implication of a racial slur or attack on anyone. Rather, I interpreted that comment as a way to accentuate RaccoonEyes' "game plan" of BB eradication .

    As we work through these draining (financially & esp emotionally) and serious BB situations, I have to say that I enjoy the humor interjected by fellow posters for it takes the edge off and allows me to "lighten up" a bit.

    Moving forward, I look forward to you & Paul's and the other experts posts and I thank each of you for your dedication and discussions of BB elimination :o)

  57. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Thu Dec 19 2013 2:39:23
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    Hi Everyone,

    I apologize for accidentally deleting some posts in this thread and one other. I was attempting to merge them into a new thread (using a forum plugin) but it failed miserably. As a result, I had to manually paste the contents of deleted posts back in. I believe I got them all back in correctly.

    Rather than posting them at the end of the thread, I added them back in chronologically, so you will see that posts for more than one user appear pasted into someone else's post. It should be clearly labeled, and if you read closely, you should be able to follow everything.

    I apologize for the inconvenience, and I recommend you don't try and quote affected posts, since you might end up accidentally mis-attributing a statement to the wrong person.

    If you're curious as to WHY I was trying to move posts to another thread, please consider for a moment that this thread is purportedly about RAID.

    I understand it's hard to separate the specific from the global, but if you see yourself veering into a discussion which occurred on a prior thread, I recommend redirecting yourself there. Post a link (or if you don't know how, post a title of the thread, and I will add a link later) and ask people to follow the conversation back there.

    If going back to the old thread also seems like it might be "off-topic", start a new one.

    If we persist in having what is more or less the same conversation about methodologies and approaches in multiple threads, people get confused about what was said, where and by whom. It has the effect of turning every thread on every topic into a discussion (argument at times) over the same issues. And in this case, it has the additional effect of giving lots of attention to a topic about RAID, which I think all the experts here agree is not the BEST product available to consumers fighting bed bugs, DIY or not.

    One other note:

    Paul,

    David isn't the only one offended by "The C**n." I was taught growing up it was a racist term (and by someone who never went to Europe).

    You may not see that it has offensive value, but others do and that's what matters.

  58. RaccoonEyes

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Sat Dec 21 2013 7:00:23
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    Why are people still talking about the nickname when it was over and done with? D;

    With that said there is a Raid that is only available in Canada that has surface instructions for bed bugs (When you hold it close to something it foams up). Is having it used as a surface spray vs Aerosol still not recommended if you are between treatments?

  59. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Sat Dec 21 2013 11:23:22
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    Hi,

    What is the point of using an insectide based contact killer when water or alcohol will work equally well.

    They have no residual activity and are therefore less effective and more toxic than products like DE.

    This forum has been around for seven years if the issue was as simple as spraying something out of a can bed bugs would not be the issue they are today.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

  60. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Sat Dec 21 2013 16:31:58
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    RaccoonEyes - 9 hours ago  » 
    Why are people still talking about the nickname when it was over and done with? D;

    Hi RaccoonEyes,

    Note that my comment was directed at Paul.

    If you read Paul's last comments on the nickname, it was pretty clear he thought David was overreacting.

    As the host of the forums, I felt the need to clarify that in this case, there are others who might be offended.

    I hope that clarifies things.

  61. P Bello

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    Posted 10 months ago
    Sat Dec 21 2013 16:44:05
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    (OK, since some individuals may be offended, let's go with General Disarray or Mysterio instead, you choice !)

    Some comments for your review and consideration:

    > Why are we (actually you) spraying insecticide in your home/bedroom? Are bed bugs present?

    Assuming there is an active bed bug infestation, consider the following:

    > You will need to review the product label to determine if this is a residual or contact kill type product prior to making certain go forward decisions.

    > If it is a non-residual type product, then little added benefit will be derived when compared to less hazardous, less odorous alternative methods, a few of which are discussed below:

    * Alcohol - rubbing type alcohol kills bed bugs on contact, is widely available and inexpensive. However, alcohol is highly flammable and should not be used in the presence or close proximity to open flame, pilot lights, electronic spark igniters, lit cigarettes, cigars, pipes, etc. Additionally, it should not be used in confined, non-ventilated spaces and those with pre-existing respiratory/pulmonary conditions should avoid breathing such vapors.

    * Water - in days of old, folks would use hot water to kill bed bugs via contact application. While generally speaking this methodology works, care must be taken to maintain a suitable temperature of the water. However, various hazards include: burn injury, damage to surfaces due to heat and damage to some surfaces and/or objects due to excessive moisture.

    * Vacuuming - accessible bed bugs may be removed immediately through use of a suitable vacuum. Some hazard does exist due to the potential airborne distribution of bed bug exuviae (i.e. particles of the bed bug exoskeleton/skin/shell/body parts, etc.) however, such hazard is mitigated through use of proper filtration within the vacuum.

    * Diatomaceous Earth (aka DE) - this is a "natural" product which is composed of the ground particles of diatoms which is, for the most part, composed of silica. When viewed under sufficient magnification DE particles may appear as shards of broken glass. DE basically works on insect pests such as bed bugs as a desiccant. When DE particles impinge on an insect's integument they may become lodged in the various joints of the appendages where they act like sandpaper eventually leading to a disruption of the protein lipid layers resulting in loss of body fluids resulting in mortality. Some DE particles may also be ingested during the insect's grooming and feeding process where these particles may cause internal injury as well. While DE works, it works slowly when compared to other insecticide products and methods. Additionally, care must be taken to avoid over application, misapplication and inhalation of DE dust during application work.

    Hope this helps, have a great day ! paul b.


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