PCO treatments and infants « Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums

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PCO treatments and infants

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BeatBugs

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Posted 4 years ago
Fri May 30 2008 14:47:52
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Bed bugs are clearly persistent critters, so if you just want to kill them, stronger is probably better.

But like a lot of folks here, we have pets and small kids, and I'm wondering if there are things we should ask about while shopping for a PCO.

ThermaPureHeat doesn't show any providers by us, in Seattle, so we'll likely need steam/chemical. Anything we should look for or avoid?

Is diatomaceous earth an inhalation problem in the babies' room once in place, or only during application?
lil_bit_obsessed

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Posted 4 years ago
Fri May 30 2008 22:29:09
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hey there,
just wondering how old your baby is, and is s/he at the crawling stage yet? this may have an impact on the answers you will receive.

my understanding is that in the event of pregnancy or very small children you are asked to stay out of your home for a longer period of time following the PCO pesticide application (in the case of my building it was four hours for the typical adult, or 24 hours if you were pregnant/had small children. this may differ depending on the pesticide used so ask your pco...)

also with DE, you definitely want to be sure it's not in an area that your baby may crawl through, or in an area (such as a doorway) where it may likely be kicked into the air for the baby to inhale.

hope this helps, and good luck!
KillerQueen

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Posted 4 years ago
Fri May 30 2008 23:17:50
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A "Babies room" should never receive a chemical treatment. A child’s lungs are not fully developed like ours. And I don't care who, and what methods are used with chemical. That room would need a to be done without any kind of Dust application or any residual insecticide. (And these 2 items are crucial for the proper treatment and or control of bed bugs. You are going to have to find a PMP that will vacuum that room with a real Pest Control vacuum and attachments. He will also need to use a Pro. Steam machine, and prolly spend a good 2 hours just in that room alone. Yes there are safe contact products to use with 0 residual for this room. But that would mean locating each live bug in the room. For anyone else reading this ... If your "PCO" is done with your entire Apt. in 1 hour (as I have read here) you will have problems. You are getting ripped off by lack of knowledge and poor treatment techniques. Research Doc. Austin Frishman ... He will tell you 1 room takes 2 men - 2 hours to treat properly.
I’m not going to say that is 100% right for me, it's close, but I do spend about 4 hours at locations. And I have unbelievable results. BOTTOM LINE IT TAKES TIME AND KNOWLEDGE TO DO THE JOB RIGHT!
bugbasher

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 7:39:46
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Killer,
Couldn't agree more,but most here are not even getting a proper inspection,let alone proper treatment.Pco's here are spoiled by spray and pray treatments that have raked in the cash for a 20 min. job and are unwilling to do the work involved for this true pestilence of a pest.My personal fantasy is the lazy,uncaring ones get so fed up by their failures that they'll look to a new line of work,at least until a magic bullet for these pests comes along when you can just spray and not have to move and turn over furniture and steam meticulisously.
paulaw0919

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 9:13:19
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A conversation like this should be on the blog so more people, possibly the "right" people could see it. Especially now that government may be starting to take interest in the bed bug epidemic. Improper treatments by people trying to self treat, not treating, yes is part of the problem...but "experts" not doing proper treatment is a big part of the problem as well.
BBcoukHome

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 10:50:56
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Hi,

The best advice I can suggest is to discuss your living conditions, family and concerns with any PCO you are looking at getting to do the work.

If they care about the quality of the work that they do they will take the time to explain what steps are needed and what options are available. It may be that a combination approach will be needed but the first step to establishing that is to get the area inspected so that the extent of the infestation can be established.

It also gives you a chance to ask questions and gather more information. If you have medical concerns I would advise you to collect the health and safety data sheets on the proposed products and do your research both online and with your doctor.

Yes these steps will take some time to do properly but if you have concerns then do the ground work in advance. In many cases the aurguments of stronger chemicals and greater quantities fit better with the spray and pray methods than a scientific approach.

David
Scarafaggio

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 11:43:40
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Actually, infants' rooms can be treated safely and effectively, but most PCOs are reluctant to do so, more for liability reasons than safety ones.

I was once blamed for diaper rash on the bottom of a baby who lived in the house across the street from a bakery I was treating (without using pesticides, by the way). Mommy claimed that the "poisons" were being carried into her home along with the aromas from the bakery. She demanded that my company pay for all sorts of medical tests, as well as pay to "decontaminate" her home.

The absurdity of such a complaint would be almost amusing had the county Health Department not actually taken it seriously enough to investigate it. It was only after they reviewed the service records, took samples, and ultimately satisfied themselves that no pesticides had been applied in that bakery for more a year (it was a strict IPM account) that they dropped their investigation. This was much to the dismay of Mommy, by the way, who accused the health inspectors and their lab of being in cahoots with me in "poisoning" her child.

But back to this thread, a good, careful, well-trained PCO can apply residual insecticides in a child's room without endangering the child's health. Proper selection of minimal-risk, non-volatile residual insecticides (EcoEXEMPT, EcoPCO, DE, etc.) is necessary, along with careful application that limits the insecticide application to wall voids, cracks and crevices, etc. where humans will not contact it. There is no exposure to the residual if it has a low vapor pressure and is applied where it will neither be inhaled, nor be touched by human skin.

Whether you'll find a PCO willing to take the liability risk, however, is another story. Even an absurd allegation like the diaper rash story I related above can cost many thousands of dollars to defend against if a plaintiff finds a court stupid enough to listen to the case.

-Scarafaggio
Winston O. Buggy

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 14:41:46
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One of the firms I deal with has a policy that they will only use steam in an infants room and crib area. I think this is a sound policy given the landscape. It does not mean that those who do it properly are wrong, it is what it is.
Scarafaggio

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Posted 4 years ago
Sat May 31 2008 18:55:34
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Winston, I agree: given the landscape, it is a sound policy. It helps prevent lawsuits, as well as possible sloppy applications by less-experienced technicians. Most companies I know of follow pretty much the same policy except that supervisors are allowed to override it in specific cases and when they are actually present on-site to assure that there is no exposure.

Again, I'm not trying to say that pesticides should be used. The only justification for chemical treatment is necessity, regardless of who occupies a space. Non-chemical methods are always preferred. But when insecticides are necessary, a skilled PCO should be capable of performing a treatment that results in zero human exposure when the treatment is completed, using minimal-risk products that emit no vapors once they are dry.

-Scarafaggio
BeatBugs

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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Jun 2 2008 19:52:47
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Finding a thorough, skilled PCO would be great if there were a way to do it. We've had two come through so far, and frankly, there's a lot more knowledge on these Forums. We're trying a third this week.

Choosing a PCO is like trying to find a mechanic: we rate one as 'good' for fixing a problem others did not. But that means you've gone through bad ones to get there.

Any more thoughts on the persistance of diatomaceous earth? Does it cause inhalation troubles even after application? It's the safest-sounding treatment I've found so far, after steam.

Here's a study on Vikane that suggests there's quite a range of exposure levels depending on circumstance. It's a shame the data goes out only 24 hours, because the drop from 12 to 24 implies that another day or two would reduce levels a good bit more.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/sf.ca.epa.june.05.hra.pdf
Scarafaggio

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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Jun 2 2008 20:57:11
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Any more thoughts on the persistance of diatomaceous earth? Does it cause inhalation troubles even after application? It's the safest-sounding treatment I've found so far, after steam.

The problem with DE is that although it's considered "non-toxic" and "organic" by most folks, that's misleading. It's very irritating to the skin, eyes, mucous membranes, and respiratory system. So as with any pesticide, the real question is one of hazard, not just inherent toxicity; and the most important factor in reducing exposure is application technique.

Understanding the concept of "hazard" is useful. Hazard is the risk of danger, and includes many factors including inherent toxicity, formulation, vapor pressure, environment, and application techniques. Dusts in general are more hazardous than other pesticide formulations of equal toxicity because they are finely-milled and become airborne easily.

Because DE is widely-touted as being "organic" and "non-toxic," a lot of people assume that means it is "safe." It's not. No pesticides, not even natural ones, should ever be considered "safe." Toxicity is only one component of total hazard.

I've read about people using DE by working it into their carpets, pouring it around the perimeter of their rooms, and by all sorts of other dubious methods. I can't say strongly enough that I would not use DE in any of those ways. It's almost certain to get stirred up and become airborne.

The best way I know of to apply DE is with a hand-operated commercial bulb duster with a piece of aquarium tubing or heat-shrink electrical insulation ("spaghetti") attached to the end. Use this to place the DE directly into cracks behind baseboards, etc., and use a little artist's brush to sweep the excess into the crack.

You also can puff DE into structural voids by drilling a hole, puffing the dust through the hole, and sealing the hole with Spackle, wood filler, putty, etc. A lot of PCOs don't bother drilling and dusting for bedbugs, but I usually did, especially in multiple dwellings. Be extremely careful not to dust voids that are used as heat / AC ducts or plenums.

Another good use for DE or other dusts is in electrical conduit; but I wouldn't suggest that DIY folks do this (unless they happen to be electricians by trade).

The thing to remember when using dusts is that you really shouldn't be able to see any exposed dust after the application. If you can see it, then it can become airborne.

Frankly, if either I or someone in my family ever gets bedbugs, I doubt I'll use DE (or any dust) anywhere except inside the structural voids and the electrical conduit. Why? Because in my opinion, a liquid application of a low-toxicity, low-volatility, liquid insecticide is less hazardous than a "non-toxic" dust. I also would probably use Delta Dust (deltamethrin) to get a bit faster control, but DE would work, too.

As for finding a skilled PCO to do a careful crack-and-crevice treatment, I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened to hear that it's at all difficult. It's certainly something that all techs should be trained in. In my case, because I originally was trained in food processing pest control, it was simply the way we worked.

In USDA-inspected food plants especially, it was exceedingly rare that the inspector would approve anything other than careful crack-and-crevice application. By definition, this meant injecting the insecticide at low pressure directly into cracks, usually by using a thin plastic applicator tip extension on the sprayer. No insecticide was allowed on the surfaces at all, and sometimes the cracks had to be sealed immediately after the insecticide was applied (depending on the product used and the mood of the inspector).

This is basically the procedure that can be used to treat a child's room. As much as can be done with vacuuming, steam, etc. should be done first, the structural voids can be dusted from the adjacent rooms, DE can be used in the conduit (if needed), and a low-toxicity, low vapor liquid insecticide can be applied directly into the cracks in the child's room. If done carefully, then after the insecticide dries, there should be no exposure.

Again, however, don't expect to actually find too many PCOs willing to do this.

-Scarafaggio
Bugologist

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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Jun 2 2008 22:10:16
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Sorry for the rant in this post, I just didn't like the sour taste this post left. I'd like to hear KillerQueens answer a few of her own statements. Obviously, a very strongly opinionated person:

A "Babies room" should never receive a chemical treatment. --- Ok so if a childs room is infested by bugs, which unfortunately happens, and the bugs are in cracks and crevices or other area that a steamer/vacuum can't address, how do you get rid of the bugs without pesticide? You're also very vague on what two items are necessary to control bed bugs: do you mean the dust and residual or vacuum and steam? I'm a huge advocate of steam and vacuums but to say they are necessary is inaccurate because I know many companies who don't use either and still eradicate bugs. If you're looking to contract a company that's probably more affordable and relies on pesticide, you can and many can get rid of bugs. Vacuums and steam are highly recommended and very effective, but not necessary.

Also please point me in the direction of a real pest control vacuum. The RIGHT vacuum is essential (one that empties into a bag as hepa filters are almost impossible to clean out effectively).

You continue to say "Yes there are safe contact products to use with 0 residual for this room. But that would mean locating each live bug in the room." --- Locating every bug is completely unrealistic so back to my original statement, a room has bugs in cracks and crevices or areas you can't reach, how do you get rid of them without pesticide?

In my opinion, you should try to avoid using pesticide in a babies room and I usually will try to avoid it. Basically if I identify a problem in the room, I try to identify where it is but if pesticides are needed and it's not associated with the crib, if it's done properly, sometimes it's necessary.

Also, I am not a big fan of Frishman. I suggest for those of you who want to see what he has to say, go for it but do so with an analytical approach. While a good portion of what he has to say is accurate, there are occasional statements that are completely backwards and just wrong. I've seen his training videos and laughed and shook my head through the entire video but unfortunately he's regarded as the "father of pest control" or some other ridiculous name.
paulaw0919

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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Jun 2 2008 22:43:17
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When going through traditional treatments, our two nurseries were both treated. Four times to be exact. If I had to do traditional treatments again, I would INSIST on getting the cribs steamed EVERY SERVICE VISIT. The reason I say this, is because our twins were 8 month old,crawling babies that took 2-3 naps a day when our infestation started. It's absolutely impossible to keep a crib isolated at that age. I couldn't even try to isolate nor did my PCO recommend it. If I remember correctly I could only get them to steam the first visit and that was it. Has anyone ever seen the amount of cracks and crevices in a crib?! Tons and tons. Then you have under the crib and under the legs to boot. Our cribs themselves were treated twice. Never the mattresses though. They were replaced and sealed upon entry. Our infestation was pretty widespread in the home and after 5 months were unable to get total control. That's when we opted for structural fumigation. For a very busy home with three small children, if I knew about it from the beginning I would have went that route. I think we eventually would have gotten total control, but with family and a larger home, it was just taking way too long for anyone of us to live with.
Bugbitten Meg

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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Nov 4 2009 9:43:09
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I found this one interesting, and definitely on-topic:

ScienceDaily (June 23, 2009) — Although it is known that infants are more susceptible than adults to the toxic effects of pesticides, this increased vulnerability may extend much longer into childhood than expected, according to a new study by researchers at the University of California, Berkeley.
Among newborns, levels of paraoxonase 1 (PON1), an enzyme critical to the detoxification of organophosphate pesticides, average one-third or less than those of the babies' mothers. It was thought that PON1 enzyme activity in children approached adult levels by age 2, but instead, the UC Berkeley researchers found that the enzyme level remained low in some individuals through age 7.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623091131.htm
watkinsnewan

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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Nov 4 2009 11:11:32
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Wow Meg you really digging in this forum.... Thanks I don't have the time to dig that much.. and found this one really interesting.. Would like to know KQ 's response a year later to see if the views have changed.. .. I am trying not to run in to the babies room And scrub every thing...
TThelp

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Posted 3 years ago
Thu Nov 5 2009 19:11:44
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paulaw0919 - 1 year ago »
When going through traditional treatments, our two nurseries were both treated. Four times to be exact. If I had to do traditional treatments again, I would INSIST on getting the cribs steamed EVERY SERVICE VISIT. The reason I say this, is because our twins were 8 month old,crawling babies that took 2-3 naps a day when our infestation started. It's absolutely impossible to keep a crib isolated at that age. I couldn't even try to isolate nor did my PCO recommend it. If I remember correctly I could only get them to steam the first visit and that was it. Has anyone ever seen the amount of cracks and crevices in a crib?! Tons and tons. Then you have under the crib and under the legs to boot. Our cribs themselves were treated twice. Never the mattresses though. They were replaced and sealed upon entry. Our infestation was pretty widespread in the home and after 5 months were unable to get total control. That's when we opted for structural fumigation. For a very busy home with three small children, if I knew about it from the beginning I would have went that route. I think we eventually would have gotten total control, but with family and a larger home, it was just taking way too long for anyone of us to live with.

This all sounds so VERY familiar!
What an awful problem to have with two crawling babies and another child! So much work to try and process/prepare your home when there are little ones to care for! And, yes the cribs are very difficult with all the crevices!
And, yes to the difficulty in determining treatments, as shown by the debating in this thread!
It's been very hard for me too!
You don't want to expose your little ones to the dangerous chemicals. But, who wants to live with BBs either?
Kendie

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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Apr 30 2010 15:03:48
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Oh crap, I just found this post and I will freely admit I am freaking out. When we found the bedbugs (in our room and the spare room, not in the baby's room, although his room is close by both rooms) we panicked and didn't really shop around (we thought the K9 unit would work for us) and wanted to get the problem under control ASAP. In the initial inspection we understood that it would be heat treatment upstairs, chemical downstairs in the basement. However, when we came home that night, the whole house was covered in chemical residue. When my husband called the company, he was told that they always spray after heat treatment. And everywhere was covered- all over the baby's room (including his crib), the floors, the couches...everything. He was told that the chemical is inert after two hours and would not pose any harm to either us, the baby or the cat (chemical suspended in clay, listed on the sheet is Tempo/ Baycom?). However, we started wiping down everything that the baby could touch, since he is crawling, which was against the suggestion from the PCO to leave everything alone so the bugs can crawl through it. And now I wonder what have we done to the baby???????? Should I go back into his room and clean it again to make sure there is no more residue, except behind the baseboards? Same with the living room/ kitchen, which is where he spends the most time. Oh crap, I am freaking out here....
cilecto

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Posted 3 years ago
Sat May 1 2010 10:25:05
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Welcome, Kendie. Can you clarify what kind of heat treatment was applied upstairs? IE, was the whole room heated (a very effective one-shot approach but which, alone, does not have a residual effect against re-introduction)? Or, was heat (such as steam) used on specific surfaces? Is the PCO someone who you can communicate with to get more clarity about what was actually applied (beyond a form letter) and why?