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Ozone Experiment
(28 posts)-
Hello to All, I own and operate a Pest Control Firm and have been trying to find an effective and less expensive treatment method for Bed Bugs. I am a dog trainer as well and have used Ozone generators in my kennels to eliminate the odors of a typical kennel with great success. When I heard that Ozone was being looked at to control Bed Bugs I was very interested. So much so that I purchased an Ozone Generator that produced 7000 grams per hour. The units in my kennels produce 100 gr/hr. I placed bed bugs in a 15 x 15 room which equalled 1800 cubic ft. I ran the unit for 12 hours and had a 50% mortality rate of the bugs. I had a customer with a BB problem and she agreed to allow the test be conducted in her home. Because of the size of the area we let the unit run for 24hours and 6 hours to air out. Upon inspection I found several dead insects but I did find a few live insects.
I believe that Ozone will work but the problem is finding a unit that will produce enough ozone to do the job. The unit I purchased was $2200 and my guess is I'd need at least one more unit, possibly 2. When we use ozone at this level pets,plants,and people need to vacate the building as the air is unbreathable. It's also recommended to remove sensitive items. Ozone will effect rubber, fur coats, and paints.
I'm in discussions with a some people to expand this study to the university level and hope to be able to update this post from time to time.
I did notice that some posts show people applying Phantom. In a recent study out of Virginia Tech, Phantom took 19 days to kill Bed bugs and during that time the insects layed 50% more eggs than those not subjected to chemicals. I would be careful applying these products as a homeowner. But if you must, keep records of what and when you applied so you can inform PCO's if and when you call for ones help. -
Thanks Jim--
Welcome!
Bedbugger advises people not to experiment with self-treatment, and to get a PCO who is experienced with eradicating bedbugs whenever possible (we have a FAQ about that--accessible from the FAQs button below).
Keeping records of what you do, if you do anything, is great advice, though some Bedbuggers have noted some PCOs will refuse to treat if you have self-treated (even, in this case, with DE.) -
Thanks for the welcome and I agree with Bedbuggers stance on experimentation - it's generally not a good idea. As a courious PCO and dog trainer (termites, carpenter ant, bed bug detection type) I have always tried to think out of the box. This critter (BB) is one I believe will take a new method of treatment to gain control of. Because of the time it takes for a PCO treatment many people with the problem just can't afford the treatments which in turn means the problem will only get worse for everyone.
As for the record keeping issue, I understand the PCO side of this. And I feel for the homeowner. The homeowner / tennant needs to be honest with information regarding anything they've tried themselves or the problem may increased.
I believe , in time , we'll see a cure for this issue. Recently it was noted that organic chicken farms were over run by Bed bugs. There is a study being done to see if an antibotic treatment of the host would be effective. We all need to hang there and do the best we can until something concrete is developed.
My hat is off to you for this website. Education is the best weapon we have at this time.
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I've been scanning old posts and the ozone treatment sounds promising. Any idea why the ozone killed some and not other bed bugs? Were some bugs more protected, eg, behind a wall was the age of the bb a factor, not even output from the ozone generator? Since your post 9 months ago, any progress made concerning the ozone generator?
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fightorflight
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Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 692
Posted 1 year ago
Sun Feb 3 2008 5:08:27
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Yea, Jim! We need inquiring minds like you.
Downer note: Shit, sounds like terminal levels of ozone are needed. I mean, affects paint at a 50% kill level? That could present a difficult logistical issue... Oh um, what about throwing your inquisitive and analytical mind into optimizing gas and Vikane treatments, like for big, multi-unit dwellings... better tenting methods, how to treat the whole building at once... the devil is in the details sometimes...
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Crawledon,
There are at least a few companies already claiming to offer Ozone treatments for bed bugs. I would personally want to see some results on this before I went with this over another method.
fightorflight--
Treating an entire building with vikane gas is not a problem, except hugely expensive. people do it all the time. But most don't, because they are paying a fortune for a treatment with no residual.
Treating individual units is not possible because you can't tent around an apartment. The gas is extremely lethal and the tenting has to be perfect not just to kill the bed bugs but to keep neighbors alive.
It's also illegal to work with the stuff unless you are licensed to use it, so it's not something people can experiment with unless they are professional fumigators.
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I understand that this is not permitted in NY, does anyone have any info?
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Complete Ozone, Inc. manufactures a line of Ozone Generators that produces Ozone in concentrations high enough to kill bed bugs. Our generators and service providers can be found on our web site at completeozone.com.
The International Ozone Association uses parts per million (ppm) and cubic feet per minute (cfm) to measure ozone concentration. Anyone who uses anything else is hiding their results. Even when measuring gas in the composition of air, ppm is used.When in high enough concentrations, ozone is 100% effective in eradicating bed bugs. We guarantee our results and our licensees use our products worldwide with success.
Ozone is legal in New York, in fact we have a licensee who works New York City and New Jersey and is constantly using our generators in both commercial and residential applications to remove bed bugs.
Ozone is also a price effective solution at $.05 to $.07 a cubic foot
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Dear CompleteOzone,
I wonder if you could possibly share any references you have from peer reviewed publications explaining the effective use of Ozone in the treatment of bed bugs or any other pests for that matter. I did have a look at the International Ozone Association but for some reason they fail to list pest control amongst the applications for the technology.
I am relatively familiar with the more recent applications of Ozone in smell remediation as well as its 1920's medical cure all claims. In fact I have a fine collection of antique medical instruments some of which have Ozone generators as part of them.
Subsequently I am more aware than most of the potential harm that can be caused through exposure to Ozone at high levels, in fact Wikipedia sums it up well in the phrase:
"ozone is an air pollutant with harmful effects on the respiratory systems of animals"
This does seem to contradict the statement below which is taken from the about Ozone section of your website:
Ozone (O3) is an allotropic form of oxygen: it is oxygen in its most active state; therefore it is a more generous supply of oxygen - the life giver.
I am sure that you will find that the users of this forum are more than open to new ideas and technology as long as they can be supported with appropriate scientific evidence such as peer reviewed scientific publications.
I look forward to reading this information as soon as it is available.
Regards,
David Cain
Bed Bugs Limited -
As I said in your comment on a Bedbugger.com post today, I would also like to see some data to back up your claims. I note that the Complete Ozone website currently does not mention bed bugs as one of the applications.
I also want to note, as I did here, that you have posted what amounts to advertisements for your company on three posts today, and it's a violation of our Terms and Conditions of Use to advertise in this way in comments and forum posts.
I have deleted one of your blog comments for this reason. Please do not continue to use the website in this manner. You are otherwise most welcome to participate in a discussion of ozone as a treatment, or of bed bugs generally.
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The post was not meant to advertise, only to inform that UV ozone is powerful enough to destroy bed bugs. We are currently working with the entymology department at the University of Florida as well as with Villanova University and the International Ozone Association. One of our efforts is to prepare tests and studies to be distributed about ozone and bed bugs, but the stringent testing required takes time. For the time being, field test results are all that we can offer.
We recently treated a home that had been dealing with bed bugs for over a year without success. They had hired a pest control operator, but because of the ineffectiveness of chemical treatments the PCO had been unable to completely eradicate bed bugs. The system they were using apparently failed to destroy eggs and larvae.
We treated their home for 24 hours. They have not seen bed bug since. One of the advantages of an intensive ozone treatment is that the ozone will go anywhere air reaches and oxidize contaminants such as bed bug eggs where they lie.
Although the ozone test results specifically for bed bugs are unavailable, on a molecular level, the bonding that reverts ozone back to oxygen is the same in bed bugs as it is in termites, cockroaches, and other pests with carbon in their atomic makeup.
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Mr Cain,
You are 100% right in saying that ozone is harmful to the respiratory system of animals. And humans for that matter. Ozone will break down necessary lining on the lungs of both humans and animals. This is primarily because ozone will break up molecules with carbon in their composition. Ironiclly, it is also this feature that allows ozone to destroy pests. That is why OSHA has limits on ozone levels in inhabited buildings.
When an area is cleared, treated with ozone, and then the ozone is allowed to fully revert to oxygen, the area will be freed from many harmful particles and will in fact be fresher and better for breathing.
Oxygen is a tricky word in that it refers to both oxygen (O2) that we breath and oxygen (O) the element. Oxygen (O) the element is the life giver. The phrase you referenced refers to the multiple bond (alotropy) of oxygen atoms that is ozone (O3).
Without ozone however, we would not survive. The ozone layer destroys harmful bacteria and conaminants in the air and ozone is also a part of the make up of air (at about .05 ppm) and acts to destroy contaminants in the air we breathe all the time.
As far as ozone destroying pests, there are studies in food processing that utilize ozone to destroy pests. I will see if I can reference one.
Regards,
Jon Foley
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Here is a Purdue University study on ozone killing grain insects
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/030130.Mason.ozone.html
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Hi Jon,
I look forward to the time when you have published data on the system. It does however need to be a study on bed bugs because what works for one species of insect will not necessarily work on others, its a common mistake and one of the reasons why so many dust mite products get applied to the bed bug market, the physiology and habits of the insects however make them highly unlikely to work.
I am sure you appreciate that over the years lots of people have attempted to apply technology to the bed bug problem. Its a well trodden path and has not actually resulted in that many effective solutions becoming available.
I do know some people who has worked on testing Ozone and i am sure one way be along in a while to post to this thread. Unfortunately their results weer not satisfactory but it may be that you have a slightly different approach to them. Accidentally I attempted a few things with high voltage supplies and Ozone back in 2002 but it was not effective.
I have seen data for odor and mold remediation with Ozone but dealing with a static subject is not as relevant as you might think with regards a highly mobile insect.
I am sure if you present the data other professionals on the forums will be happy to have a look through it and comment. I would also be very cautious of Ozone and asthma sufferers as I know it is a very common trigger for attack episodes, even at ultra low concentrations.
Good luck with your studies and I look forward to the next technical installment.
David Cain
Bed Bugs LImited -
Mr. Cain,
You are right in saying that technology cannot be universally applied to all insects. However, From an atomic perspective, there are universalities. Atomically, oxygen will always want to form a bond with carbon. Ozone will always be an unstable bond of three oxygen atoms. These three oxygen atoms will always be looking to find a more stable state, i.e. O2.
In response to atomic mandates, ozone will always be drawn to bond with molecules that include carbon. When this bonding occurs, the former molecules, O3 and whatever was bonded with carbon, will break down.
Bed bugs, Cimex lectularius, are partially composed of carbon. As they are exposed to ozone, the ozone will break apart the molecules. In high enough concentrations, this ozone will cause breakdown sufficient to kill them - just as it does with other insects. So in that respect, this research can be universally applied.
Jon Foley
Complete Ozone -
Hi Jon,
Sorry but I completely disagree with the concept of thing being universally applied because with all due respect you need to understand the habits of the bed bugs and how they infect locations.
Gas based methods or space treatments have not been that effective in the past because of the edge effect that you get in the refugia of bed bugs. In short the gas applied to the area must penetrate all the cavities to the extent of critical death levels for bed bugs. In practice this is difficult to achieve and taking general atmosphere readings will not give you an accurate indication that the refugia have been treated.
This is something that also troubled the initial thermal remediation attempts and I am not sure if all providers have overcome that obstacle.
Your atomic level analogy only works in petri dishes and lab tests which is why field data is so essential.
If you want to chat about this in more detail please contact me off the forum.
David
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Mr. Cain,
With all due respect, I am afraid you are out of you intellectual ballpark. Your context of understanding is limited to the methodolgy you are familiar with, and you are wrong. The gases that you have worked with are not like ozone, and the process by which we measure ozone concentrations is far beyond what you are familiar with. It is common sense that the reading in the center of a room is different from the reading inside the crevices of a floorboard. The levels that can be acheived in those areas too, is high enough to destroy anything. Bed bugs included.
Our results and understanding do not come from only petri dishes, but from the hundreds of successful applications of ozone to kill bed bugs every year. In essence, we not only preach it, but we practice it.
If your arguement is that other methodologies fail to penetrate all of the vital areas, then I do not disagree with you, however that does not have bearing on ozones efficacy. The universality between bed bugs and other insects as effected by ozone is not a concept, but a reality.
You agree that if ozone permeates the environments bed bugs inhabit in acceptable levels, it would be fatal. Where you understanding fails you is that you do not know what the ppm of ozone must be in order for this to occur. By not knowing the goal, it is impossible for you to conclude that ozone does not reach the appropriate level.
Grace and Peace,
Jon Foley
Complete Ozone -
Hi Jon,
Let me enlighten you on my experience.
In 2005 I became the worlds first dedicated exterminator of bed bugs having worked extensively on them for the previous 2 or 3 years.
I have now completed in the region of 11,000 infestation and my company treat up to 12 properties per day.
We look at and review all available technologies which have either become available and a few that did not make it through field testing.
My comments about crevice saturation come from a rather detailed knowledge of gas movements and how they mix in various atmospheres. Unfortunately when you are dealing with micro climates which tend to be generated around bed bug refugia you see that the edge effect and limited atomic movement mean that mixing is not complete and fully efficient. Therefore gases have problems getting into locations where bed bugs are hold up for about 98% of their time.
Now if you are telling me that Ozone behaves in a different way to all others gases please provide data to illustrate this.
I have read previous work on Ozone and bed bugs and although I cant lay my hands on the information as to what ppm is needed to be fatal I am sure someone who has tested this type of system will dig it out.
As for being out of my ball park, I hold two university degrees in biological sciences and had a very successful career in technology evaluation and commercial development before I decided to become a pest controller. My first degree covered many aspects of science from microbiology and genetics to obscure subjects like micro climatology and environmental physics. The UK higher education system works on very different principles to the US and we tend to cover subject in a lot more detail earlier in our studies than the US system.
My argument is that gas based technologies regardless of the gas all need to overcome the issues surrounding Brownian motion in micro climates, Ozone may have less of an issue being a smaller molecule but the laws of physics still apply.
I am not trying to put the concept down just highlighting the fact that you need to do more than just post, a little evidence would go a long way to convincing people that you have the concept right as opposed to the others that muddied the water before you.
I hope that clarifies.
David
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junior member
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
Posted 7 months ago
Thu Apr 9 2009 13:53:20
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I've posted on the board before about my experiences in the past with ozone and since my posts aren't attached to this thread, let me summarize.
Bottom line is that we have had companies come in and attempt to use ozone to eradicate bed bugs in a field setting (a single family home). The infestation in the home was quite bad and the company who came in to perform the treatment made ALL the same claims that Mr. Foley of Complete Ozone was making. Difference was that the company we had come in actually provided some data to us that illustrated ozone killing bed bugs in a lab setting.
Results of the experiment - very few if any bed bugs were killed by the treatment.
I agree with David in that for the future, I'm not discrediting ozone for treating bed bugs. For now there is entirely too much work that needs to be done with it in a field setting. I've heard all of the companies make the same claims as Mr. Foley but everytime you ask them for field data they give you the "treated a home for bed bugs and never saw another" magic wand story. We tried to replicate the field setting, more than once, and it didn't kill bugs. Until you have data to back your claims, you're not going to be taken seriously by the experts in this field. When you do, I'm all ears.
Also, I have serious concerns about the potential health effects of ozone. I understand that homes cannot be occupied during treatment but I've made the calls to University, PhD level researchers who have experience with ozone and they couldn't believe companies were making this claim. From speaking with them, ozone is an unstable molecule and reacts with other molecules in the environment. By reacting with them it changes their structure and can potentially produce harmful byproducts in the process. Since this is such an understudied field, nobody really knows what some of the byproducts are because of that, I have concern over using it at such high levels.
Again, I'm not trying ot pick a fight. Produce some field data and let me see the results. I was intrigued by the claims and we tried to replicate the claims and it fell on it's face. Produce the data and then we'll talk.
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spideyjg
oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,405
Posted 7 months ago
Thu Apr 9 2009 14:28:02
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Whatever the weapon it must get to the bugs without them sensing their imminent demise or hit them so fast they cannot escape.
There was a paper where an entomologist went along with a thermal treatment and set up a tube for bugs to escape and sure enough as the temps climbed near the death threshold they attempted to flee.
Cannot add anything to the "real world" vs lab examples prior posted.
A few logical problems come to mind...
Do BBs detect the buildup of O3 and attempt to escape prior to lethal ppm? This can be tested in a lab easy enough. If they do not detect the building peril then that would be a definite advantage over other methods.
How do you ensure lethal ppm are achieved for the BBs wedged in a crack, between double studs, behind 1/2" drywall, and surrounded by insulation, and not harm the neighbors cat sleeping on the other side of the wall. Also do the lethal ppm exceed threshholds that will degrade the rubber and plastics, or "bleach" the items in the apartment being treated?
Maybe it can kill bugs, but many other issues can nix its viability. Fire works great but has other issues.
Jim
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I cannot comment on the effectiveness of Ozone. It may be the *next big thing* for bed bug eradication. Or not. We do Thermal treatments and face many of the same challenges Mr. Foley is up against in this thread.
My concerns (disclaimer - I have NO scientific background at all let alone one as detailed as David Cain or JWhite) are the oxidation that would occur in a home may lead to offgassing of the VOC's in the home triggering sysmptoms similar to sick building syndrome. The Thermal process also causes a rapid offgassing of VOCs but the aggressive air exchanges we generate purge the VOCs from the structure... I dunno of it is the same with ozone.
Tony Canevaro
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Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
Posted 7 months ago
Fri Apr 10 2009 6:57:03
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And that's just it Tony. There are so many unanswered questions with ozone and unlike heat which is just heat, ozone is already regulated as a toxic substance so who knows what's really going on.
I'm just tired of some of companies, ozone or otherwise, making claims that their product can do things that they have no scientific backing for. I'm not saying every product should be tested extensively before it's introduced to the market but at the same point somebody with a knowledgeable background should at least put a discerning eye on it to see what it can do. I did, and it didn't do.
Also the universally applied comments are completely ridiculous. Because something has one effect on one thing it does not mean it's going to have the same effect on another. Ants and cockroaches many times can feed on the same food source but cockroach baits wouldn't be as effective for ants and vice versa. Just a ridiculous claim.
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Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 113
Posted 7 months ago
Fri Apr 10 2009 8:47:29
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Open letter to all who have new ideas/products for bed bug control
1. Posting about a new product on bedbugger.com is a great idea, as many bed bug experts frequently check in with this site such as Sean Rollo, Jeff White, David Cain, etc.
2. Instead of getting in lengthy arguments with bed bug experts on this site, try to get your product in their hands to test. Field and lab data are great and should be brought up, but getting an independent evaluation is critical. We did this with Packtite and it immensely helped getting it to market. Also, having done this with both Sean Rollo and Jeff White, I can tell you they are both very nice and professional to work with. When you choose the other route of just arguing with people who could help you make your product a success, it not only looks suspicious, but you could burn some bridges you might need.
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junior member
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
Posted 7 months ago
Fri Apr 10 2009 10:27:18
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Thank you David.
"but you could burn some bridges you might need. ", and that's why I don't trash talk ozone because you never know where it's going to go in the future and I don't want to burn associations with those companies. At the same point, you have to state findings and debate statements no matter how negative they may be. I'll say it again, bring me scientific field data that the product is killing bed bugs and I would love to work with the product. Until then, beware of claims.
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your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 5,547
Posted 7 months ago
Fri Apr 10 2009 13:15:41
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I'll say it again, bring me scientific field data that the product is killing bed bugs and I would love to work with the product. Until then, beware of claims.
Hum me a tune and I will SING this...
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Just have been watching this thread with interest. We have industrial ozone equipment and in our area there are about 5000 homes with bedbug problems waiting for a solution. Clearly, I was "hoping" this process worked, but haven't really seen any data on it. Just looking for ways to help new clients and leverage our existing equipment....
Has anyone made any progress on this topic?
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I have seen nothing new posted here on this.
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