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NEEM OIL?

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  1. rAVENSFAN99

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 5:47:55
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    Does anyone know the latest advice regarding Neem Oil? I just found out my upstairs neighbors are infested, and they have been using a "natural" approach--steaming, DE, Neem Oil, etc. after having 3 chemical treatments several months ago (before I even moved in).

    I am concerned because while I've read it can work, I've also read that it can drive the bugs further into other apartments.

    Thanks.

  2. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 16:27:36
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    We've been using Neem oil as an anti fungal method for diaper rashes. Due to ample research on the Neem to make sure it was safe, it's anti bug abilities I've also read some info on.

    From reading, figuring out if it a repellent or something more is hard to figure out. I read several articles stating that biting insects would literally forget to bite when around the stuff and it had no effect on standard plant insects. Weird, but go figure.

    Plenty of recipes out there for using it as a mosquito repellent via mixing with water, but again what does it actually do to stop the insects from biting is anyones guess. Only thing I know for sure is the stuff is powerful as an anti-fungal remedy enough that our doctor was amazed at our progress with the rash. It is also supposed to be good as an anti-bacterial and viral medication.

    Sorry I couldn't lock down what it does, but I have seen little when reading that just said it repels bugs.

  3. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 16:46:14
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    Just thought I'd add the following interesting writup on how the stuff works:

    This bed bug repellent has active ingredients that are similar to the hormones insects produce. Bed bugs mistakenly ingest neem oil thinking they are natural hormones. This blocks their real hormones from working properly and they will not be able to survive. Neem oil offers a safe and environmentally friendly way to treat bed bugs.

    Read more: How to Kill Bed Bugs With Neem Oil | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_6374935_kill-bed-bugs-neem-oil.html#ixzz1F0ekjiO3

  4. rAVENSFAN99

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 16:51:24
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    Thanks. My neighbor is going to give me some tonight and I am going to put it down this weekend before my next chemical treatment. I'm also ordering some soap with Neem oil in it from Etsy, because I figure it can't do any harm to have it on me.

  5. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 17:28:11
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    No guarantee how it works, but also seems big in India for dealing with them:

    http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080217073426AAxP0oA

  6. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 19:22:21
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    Proponents of NEEM claim it's a repellent. I linked to one example on this thread (which you should read if you want more opinions). This pro-Neem site says not to use Neem to treat for bed bugs (and they're trying to SELL the stuff).

    It may be a contact killer, but those are a dime a dozen and not going to solve your problem.

    If Neem is a repellent, as Neem fans often claim, then it is not a good treatment for bed bugs.

    I would not rely on eHow.com or Yahoo answers. Anyone can write anything they want there, and I have seen plenty of garbage there.

    If you check the "references" in the eHow article, none of them say that Neem should be used to treat bed bugs.

    I would love to see a controlled research study on Neem and bed bugs, but at this point, based on information available, I am very skeptical.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  7. BBGen0cide

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 21:03:08
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    Neem has done nothing for me. nothing. bed bugs do not fear it one bit when they are hungry.

  8. rAVENSFAN99

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 21:31:23
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    Thanks, NoBugs, I'm pretty skeptical but willing to try it once.

    I never even look at EHow or Yahoo! Answers. I wish there was more legit information about these types of things out there. . . it's so hard to find genuine information about so many bb-related issues. It's like the wild west of misinformation.

  9. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Fri Feb 25 2011 22:29:56
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    Unfortunately, it it repels your bed bugs deeper into your home, you will have more trouble getting rid of them.

  10. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 14:06:38
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    @DBruce. The Yahoo responses seem to call for use of tobacco or neem leaf, with one answer saying "rub your entire body with a little neem oil mixed in coconut oil before you sleep. It stinks but bed bugs, mosquitoes etc will never bite you". Note that even if this approach works as speculated, it will not eradicate BB from your home, protect your visitors from taking your BB to their homes or keep you from taking BB with you to the places you visit. Another response suggested applying a highly toxic organophosphate-based agricultural pesticide - Methyl Parathion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parathion Still more said "just buy a new bed", which, as anyone who's been on the forum a while knows, is not necessary and not always effective either.

    The eHow article cites a Cornell article about neem, but it does not say anything definitive about bed bugs, other than tests on other "true bugs" show promise. This does not give us enough to go on regarding how to apply it vs. bed bugs. My inner geek did find the Cornell article an insteresting read and if you're so inclined (ie, you're a geek), encourage you to read it. http://web.pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/resourceguide/mfs/08neem.php There's also an article cited from UConn, but it's oriented to horticulture and does not mention BB.

    As NoBugs has noted, the web is now full of sites which are known as "content farms", which consist of millions of mediocre, unvetted articles.

    BTW, the picture of insects on the eHow article is (AFAIK) not of bed bugs.

    Content farm
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In the context of the World Wide Web, a content farm is a company that employs large numbers of often freelance writers to generate large amounts of textual content which is specifically designed to satisfy algorithms for maximal retrieval by automated search engines. Their main goal is to generate advertising revenue.[1]

    The articles in content farms often poach from other media sources, leading to disputes over copyright infringement.[2] They are written by human beings but may not be written by a specialist in the area. Proponents of the content farms claim that from a business perspective, traditional journalism is inefficient:[1] stories are chosen by a small group of people that frequently have similar experiences and outlooks. Content farms often commission their writers' work based on analysis of search engine queries[1] that proponents represent as "true market demand", a feature that traditional journalism lacks.[1]

    Content farms are criticized for providing relatively low quality content[3] as they maximize profit by producing just "good enough" rather than best possible quality articles.[4] Authors are aware that the quality is not that good.[5] Search engines see content farms as a problem, as they tend to bring the user to the less relevant and lower quality results of the search.[6] Because of the attempt to deliver as much as possible and as cheaply as possible, content farms are called "McDonalds online".[7]

    In one of Google's promotional videos for search, the majority of the links available were reported to be produced at content farms.[8]

    Content farms contain huge number of articles. For instance, Demand Media will soon be publishing 1 million items a month, the equivalent of four English-language Wikipedias a year.[9] Big content farms are expensive resources, sold for many millions.[10]

    A content farm writer usually gets only several dollars per article yet produces many articles per day and may earn enough for living. A typical content writer is a female with children that contrasts with sites expecting voluntary unpaid contribution for the sake of idea, where the typical writer is an unmarried (single) male.[11


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_farm

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
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  11. spideyjg

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 14:15:44
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    dbruce - 21 hours ago  » 
    Bed bugs mistakenly ingest neem oil thinking they are natural hormones.

    It isn't possible for them to suck up oil.

    Jim

  12. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 14:40:10
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    @Spidey: What are the bugs in the pic accompanying the eHow article on neem?
    http://i.ehow.com/images/a06/2h/gn/kill-bed-bugs-neem-oil-800X800.jpg

  13. spideyjg

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 16:10:52
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    Halloween bugs?

    Not sure but Lou or Effeci probably can tell.

    They are relative in that they are from the Hemiptera family.

    In fact check this chart which has a Cimex on the bottom left and what appears to be those pictured middle right.

    http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/uniramia/hemiptera.html

    Jim

  14. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 16:35:28
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    This is garbage. It (and many other natural approaches to bed bugs) have been debunked by leading researchers time and time again. This is not a pro-pesticide conspiracy ... it is fact.

    If the stuff worked as well as they claim then the bed bug problem would be gone. There is no magic bullet ... Diligent, hard work with proper knowledge and products is the only way to solve bed bugs.

    Sean

  15. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 19:33:46
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    All, not promoting it, just mentioning it's a confusing mess of info out there. The fact Neem works as a pesticide, repellent is pretty well known. Neem is used in India for just about everything and I was turned on to it due to Indian friends recommending it for something totally irrelevant to pest control.

    Amusingly, its use as an anti-fungal agent is also a relative unknown within English speaking sites, so go figure given my results with it.

    Given my frequent stays within hotels, being able to spray the stuff all over everything would be wonderful (assuming it works). Reality, without mixing with something like lavender to kill the smell, no way you would use this all over the place.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 20:01:11
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    dbruce - 24 minutes ago  » 
    All, not promoting it, just mentioning it's a confusing mess of info out there. The fact Neem works as a pesticide, repellent is pretty well known.

    Two things I want to reiterate:

    The first fact is that repelling bed bugs is a bad idea -- this is well known to people who know about bed bugs. Repelling bed bugs won't make them pack up and exit your house. It can make them dig deeper into your home.

    We turn then to the "pesticide" idea.

    Lots of things are "pesticides" when it comes to killing bed bugs on contact. Steam, isopropyl alcohol, even household products like Murphy's Oil Soap have been used as contact killers. Many sprays on the market are contact killers too. I would not be surprised if neem is an effective contact killer.

    The second fact, then, is that a contact killer is not enough to eliminate a bed bug problem, because you are unlikely to find all bed bugs and spray them directly.

    It's not clear that neem has any residual effect.

    Even if it does, I refer back to the first fact, which remains true: neem's alleged repellent properties are very problematic when applied to bed bugs.

    As for spraying anything all over a hotel room or other location which is not your own home, in this day and age it may lead to trouble.

  17. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 20:58:28
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    Just from this discussion, did a bit more searching around and found the following (not bedbug related):

    http://www.unido.org/fileadmin/user_media/Services/Environmental_Management/Stockholm_Convention/RENPAP_Dr_Yash_Pal_Ramdev.pdf

    In short, farming results showed Neem in a certain concentration similar to the standard pesticide and more importantly, at least for this forum, it had lasting effects similar to the pesticide at the proper concentrations.

    Again, this is not Bedbug specific, but does show more then the standard related to the effectiveness of the stuff and more importantly, who the heck knows how it actually works related to repellent or pesticide.

    Just a note, but my day job is related to computers and Neem and another herb recommended from Indian friends, Turmeric, have proved amazingly effective for a variety of stuff. In my older age I've become much more curious about all this natural stuff floating around and less jaded from very recent experience.

  18. spideyjg

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 21:48:05
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    cilecto - 7 hours ago  » 
    @Spidey: What are the bugs in the pic accompanying the eHow article on neem?
    http://i.ehow.com/images/a06/2h/gn/kill-bed-bugs-neem-oil-800X800.jpg

    Milkweed bugs or something from the Lygaeus genus.

    http://bugguide.net/node/view/415059/bgimage

    Jim

  19. cilecto

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 22:01:16
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    DBruce: The article is based on agriculture, where the key concern (with regard to the pest) is that it consume/foul as little of the crop as possible. It doesn't matter where it goes instead or if it lives or dies. This is different from BB, which is harder to eradicate due to:
    - its limited range of activities (eat, poop, grow, breed),
    - its very focused diet (no mouth, just a pair of probes for anesthetizing the host and feeding) and
    - its tendency to hide when not feeding.

    The objective is to kill all bugs in the dwelling or remove every last one of them, lest they just regroup and continue the infestation. It requires not just contact kill, but residual action, so that bugs coming out to feed (normally, when they sense that the coast is clear) cross poison and die.

    What research has found is that repellents do not appear to deter BB from feeding, just that they tend to burrow deeper or scatter when they are applied.

    The article tells us little about how neem will work as an insecticide vs BB. And this item raised my eyebrows:
    - "Harmless to beneficial species of insects".
    Which means that not all insects are affected by neem. Research would be needed to determine if neem kills BB or if neem is "harmless" to them.

    I understand that you have Indian colleagues who swear by neem or other substances. Please understand that the environment in India is different from that in North America or Europe. India continues to use powerful chemicals like chloropyriphos (Dursban), an organophosphate. It's difficult to separate what neem does from what is achieved by the pervasiveness of substances like Dursban.

    Incidentally, my mom's aide swears by kerosene, as that's what's used in her home country. Should I tout it over these forums as "gospel"?

  20. rAVENSFAN99

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 22:11:59
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    Thank you, everyone, for your input. Unfortunately, I am not able to find any solid, clinically tested information on either side of the argument.

    I've decided to skip the Neem Oil, I'm sure to my neighbors' dismay, and wash my floor with Murphy's Oil soap, using it as a contact killer to get as many of the buggers before my next scheduled chemical treatment on Tuesday.

  21. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 23:05:56
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    There are so many product that have hopped on the bed bug band wagon and the marketers are salivating at the ill informed.

    We have seen mattress encasements that are "bed bug proof" be debunked as useless because they crawl right through the teeth of the zipper.

    We have seen DEET based products claim to repel bed bugs only to have entomologists do tests (on video) of bed bugs feeding right on the arm of a person soaked with DEET.

    The bottom line is that the majority of these products were on the market long before the resurgence of bed bugs and likely had some validity for their original purpose. Once bed bugs came along they slapped "bed bug" on the product and began marketing it with no scientific proof that it works.

    Prime example is this Neem Oil that claims that bed bugs ingest it. How? Is Neem Oil in your blood??? It also claims to be harmless to beneficial insects ... with its broad claims of "power" against pest this statement is an oxymoron. It is IMPOSSIBLE for it to affect so many different genera of insects and not harm beneficial insects.

    I am sick of seeing products (and companies) that take advantage of people that are in a vulnerable state.

    Sean

  22. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sat Feb 26 2011 23:40:11
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    Incidentally, my mom's aide swears by kerosene, as that's what's used in her home country. Should I tout it over these forums as "gospel"?

    I never mentioned this as "gospel" in the least. The reality is no one really seems to know what the stuff does related to bedbugs, if anything. Obviously if it just repels them and only acts as a contact killer, it would be out as an effective method of keeping of controlling them.

    One thing I would actually like to see if someone use it on some captured bugs and see the result. More curiosity then anything else.

  23. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 27 2011 1:42:51
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    dbruce - 1 hour ago  » 
    The reality is no one really seems to know what the stuff does related to bedbugs, if anything.

    And until we do, no one here should be using it in their homes.

    I understand you're bouncing ideas around, dbruce, rather than trying to push something, but it's the nature of these forums that many visitors are desperate for solutions and some will indeed consider trying something out if they hear a statement like (as you said)


    The fact Neem works as a pesticide, repellent is pretty well known.

    Our readers are smart, but many are also tired and desperate for sleep and affordable solutions, and this tends to make people willing to try something someone else says is good. Some are looking for alternatives to other pesticides.

    Ideally people do their research and a lot of reading before trying anything, but some don't.

    I hope that clarifies where some of us are coming from.

  24. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 27 2011 11:14:53
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    I hope that clarifies where some of us are coming from.

    Having not dealt with the problem, I can understand where you are coming from.

  25. thebedbugresource

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 27 2011 11:23:15
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    Here is an excerpt from a scientific paper on Neem Oil as a pesticide (http://scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=jps.2007.251.259&linkid=pdf).

    National Research Council (1992) found that the azadirachtin was relatively harmless to butterflies, bees, ladybugs and wasps since these beneficial feed on nectar and pollen. Azadirachtin must be ingested to be effective so that pests which feed on plants are affected by its content.

    Bed bugs CANNOT ingest this product.

    Sean

  26. dbruce

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Sun Feb 27 2011 14:16:23
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    thebedbugsource,

    Reading your PDF, if you check page 4 of the document it states: ".....wide range of pest insects, mites...........,parasitic species of human beings, domestic animals....blah blah blah.

    Later in the page it states: In the same paragraph that mentions insects having Neem "entered the body of the insects," and the results it also states "neem oil also reduces pests by not allowing the female to deposit eggs" and "formation of chitin (exoskeleton) is inhibited, mating as well as sexual communication is disrupted, larvae and adults get repelled and also poisoned" (hard to see them eating it as they are repelled) "and adults get sterilized".

    It seems, at least according to the EPA, that there are two specific compounds in Neem that are effective on pests.

    http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_025007.htm

    Just note I spend on lot of time on research and analyzing stuff, so whenever someone supplies info, I do read through it and find supporting or conflicting info. Since Bed Begs are still not cited anywhere, don't really see the PDF getting us closer to knowing if it does nothing to them or on the other hand does something beneficial. If it just repels them, then it's definitely out as an option.

    I will say that if I see any more fruit-flies or houseplant gnats, I have a new method of control.

    One other interesting article on the Kissing Bug and Neem, supposedly related:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6eCK1Ypl490C&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=kissing+bugs+neem+study&source=bl&ots=CGs9NBrJtF&sig=BoTMY347jqXZ4lJ1Bu7QtyWHyfU&hl=en&ei=Ea1qTeXAD43pgAew7InMCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=kissing%20bugs%20neem%20study&f=false


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