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Moral question
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 11:32:31
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Okay, some of you have moved because of bed bugs and went into a new apartment where once again you have a bed bug problem. So, my question is, do you pay for the PCO or do you let your landlord pay knowing that you brought them to this place. I have read several posts where people knew they brought them and then it is the landlords responsibility to rid the unit of these bugs. As a landlord, this aggravates me that people are not honest and bring these bugs to other unsuspecting tenants in the building, It just really gets me angry.
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Some people do pay for their own PCOs and others don't!
Just like some landlords rent infested apartments to tenants without disclosing the infestation! It happens and it's bad on all sides. Nothing but more education and awareness will help these situations (so that people realize that moving is not a foolproof remedy and so that landlords realize that infestations must be completely eradicated).
On the other hand, it's very hard to trace the source of an infestation. Because many people are not allergic, it's not necessarily the allergic person who reports an infestation who, in fact, originated it.
These issues are complex and deserve debate, but blame cannot have a place in these discussions, because there is plenty of it to go around on all sides and it does not help anyone.
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 12:14:58
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I know in my 2 family that it was the tenant on the first floor buying used furniture from the Good Will, I don't have them and am monitoring daily. I know the tenant in one of my other apartments brought them in through friends they had that had them and the kids slept over, another in a different building last year took someones old mattresses, yet I'm responsible to pay for the extermination. If I brought them into someones building I would exterminate and I certainly would not move to someones building to try and escape the problem and then bring them with me there and expect the unsuspecting landlord to pay for the PCO. And I know by reading other peoples posts on this board that people say they brought them with them and they know how they got them.
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Well, Jade, some people escape bedbug infestations that are not properly treated by their landlords. What do you suggest they do, remain in a bedbug infested building forever? Yes, moving bedbugs is very easy, but moving will remain an option for people in some circumstances. Similarly, like I said above, landlords do not disclose existing infestations to new, unsuspecting tenants. Blaming people does not advance the discussion. Everyone needs to get educated about bedbugs and how to avoid the more common ways of bringing bedbugs into a home.
A lot of people cannot afford to pay for their own PCOs. If the landlord has an interest in protecting the value of his/her rental property, then the infestation simply must be eradicated and relying on the tenant may be foolish.
I suggested to you before that you invest in educating your tenants. If you make sure that they know how serious bedbugs are and what to look for and what not to do, you will be ahead of the game.
Bedbugs are not going away anytime soon, Jade, so I hope you can find a way to be proactive and smart about how you deal with your properties.
[Edit: too late.]
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Also, when people come here looking for advice on how to move from an infestation, I usually tell them what I honestly believe to be the best course: to get PCO treatments at the original infested home or apartment and also at their new home. This is an expensive proposition for the person who is moving, to be sure, but it is rational in my opinion.
Yes, it would be better if people did not have to move and in most cases, they would in fact be better off staying. Many people cannot fathom how it can take so many treatments to eradicate an infestation! Then there is the issue of other apartments in a building which are infested and not treated properly.
There is thick complexity everywhere when it comes to bedbugs.
In any case, I hope you find the resources at bedbugger helpful.
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 12:38:42
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I have taken responsibility and never once did I complain to my tenants about having to pay for the PCO, I know they brought them in by mistake, but when I read on these posts that people moved to escape them and brought them with them, yes, it makes me angry passing on their problems to other tenants and homeowners. I read plenty of posts where tenants are bashing their landlords, I know my tenants could not do the same to me. But let a landlord complain about tenant who knowingly brought them into their building and everyone is up in arms. My guess is most people on this board would be tenants.
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The thing is, you don't know whether someone is paying for their PCO or not. Please don't generalize or get indignant. It's not necessary. I would tell you what I did and whether I paid for my PCO, but why should I justify myself to you? Who is up in arms here, Jade? I have tried to reply to you calmly on the issues. I'm not sure what is gained by an emotional argument. You have a right to be upset if someone was reckless with used furniture, but what does that achieve? You have rational steps that you can take to educate your tenants so that such things don't happen again.
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 12:57:45
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That's not my point, my question is do you pay when you know you infested a place with bed bugs or do you make the landlord. I have read posts where tenants KNOW they INFESTED a place and I want to know morally what they would do. You are apparently getting upset with my question. Yes, I admit I'm angry that people spread them around with no regards to other people. If that makes me rude then yes, I am.
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Hi Jade,
I understand your frustration, and you do have a right to complain. Like many of us who are tenants, you "caught" bed bugs from someone else. (In your case, they're on your property, not in your home per se, but I think your frustration is not completely different from a tenant who gets them from a neighbor or from a new apartment.)
On the other hand, I think that landlords and tenants are both capable of acting fairly and proactively. They're also capable of acting selfishly. They're also both capable of being wrong about who brought bed bugs in. We see this all the time--people later seeing evidence that things did not happen in quite the way they thought.
Like hopelessnomo, I would always recommend the persn moving gets treatment before they move and a treatment right after they move (the moving party obviously has to pay for it in this case, because it has to happen right away, and with a PCO who knows they moved from an infested place; the tenant in this case should not wait until after a full-blown case of bed bugs develops, but instead treat from the get-go, proactively).
You're right that most of the people here are tenants, but that's not because landlords are not welcome to participate. You are a victim of the bed bug epidemic, just like everyone here.
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 13:18:35
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Thank you Nobugsonme, It just seems that renters think because you own a home that you have plenty of money to get rid of the problem (after all we do collect rent). They do not care that you are paying a huge mortgage, electric, gas, taxes and water bills and other maintenance bills on the property and are trying to keep from losing it. Yes, you can pinpoint how bed bugs came in to a two family. Like I said, my apartment is free of bugs (for now), my tenant likes to shop at the Salvation Army.
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Well, in your case it may seem obvious, Jade.
But remember, many people are allergic to bed bugs (so get bite marks and itching) and others are not, and may see and feel nothing, for a very long time.
So it is theoretically possible for the landlord to have bed bugs in their unit and be bitten, and have no idea whatsoever, until things are very, very far advanced. And at the same time, their tenant, in the next unit, may have bites and itching from the outset.
Since this is the way bed bugs can affect two people in adjacent units, it kind of blows away the idea that the first person to notice bed bugs in the building is the first to have bed bugs in the building.
I am not saying this is your situation, at all. What I am trying to do is get you to see that it is not ALWAYS possible to see where bed bugs came from. And I want you to see this so you can empathise with other posters on this board. We are all, tenants or landlords, victims of bed bugs. Some of us handle that with a higher ethical standard than others. Some of us make choices that hurt others (some consciously and some unintentionally).
I am empathising with you, a landlord whose tenant has made some choices which appear to have brought bed bugs into your home, a situation which is a burden for you.
I think, therefore, in return, that you should try to empathise with the situation of a different tenant who is not at fault, and whose landlord is doing a lousy job of treating the problem, and meanwhile, blaming the tenant, though there is no clear evidence of source of bed bugs in the situation.
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jadebb
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 13:51:18
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I do empathise with the people who get bed bugs unintentionally, I don't believe anyone wants to have them. I'm freaking out that I might get them, I covered my mattresses already and decluttered in case I do (not that I really needed to declutter) I wont let my Grandson sleep over so as not to infect my daughter's house. I had the PCO check my apartment and all was clear. But I guess I just want to know, if when you KNOW you are the source, and this question would only pertain to a few of the posters, do you pay for the extermination or do you ask your landlord? I don't want to excite any members just a question for the one's who know they brought them. An ethical question.
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I paid for my PCO. Feel better?
I should, but I won't, ask you if you will disclose the infestation history of your apartments to new tenants.
There's moral indignation for everyone if you know where to look.
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nightshirt
senior member
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 455
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 15:47:01
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i dont know, if in a multiple dwelling a person could actually raelly honestly know if they are the original source. that is too complicated. since they can live for up to 18 months without a snack, they could have been laying dormant in a wall from a previous tenant and then had an orrortunity.
i understand what you are getting at but there is no profession or job and does not have its risks and being a landlord, in this day and age, bb are one of the risks.
inform your tenants of preventative care and organize a landlord/tenant group to get the word out and find ways to eradicate the problem.
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nightshirt
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Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 455
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 27 2007 15:47:44
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oh - they are here to stay. so get proactive and deal. life is not fair to everyone, or anyone, all the time. this may be one of your times.
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Let's try to keep things on a friendly level, nightshirt. I know where you're coming from, but jade is a victim of the little monsters too :-)
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bugsbite
junior member
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 60
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 28 2007 4:44:25
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Jade, if your tenant "likes to shop at the Salvation Army", there's a fairly good chance that they have a limited income and couldn't pay for a PCO anyway. It's understandable that you would feel angry at the situation, but if you had tenants with bedbugs who simply did not have the financial resources to hire a PCO themselves,what would you have them do?
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Jade
Perhaps the flu virus analogy would be helpful. If someone gets the flu and it spreads through the building should they pay the medical expenses of anyone who subsequently becomes sick? What if they already know they are sick and leave their apartment anyway to go to work thereby affecting other occupants? Which resident actually left those microbes on the elevator door? The determination of fault will no doubt become subject to civil litigation and reasonable doubt issues.I follow the culpability issue, but if you observe that tenants are reluctant to report a bed bug infestation now, when the landlord is responsible for pest control ... What do you think will happen when reporting an infestation results in a huge pest control bill for the residents?
The blame game (charging the guilty party) will result a much lower reporting rate than we currently see in the community. A lower reporting rate equals greater rates of infestation when you get to the bottom line. We need to remove any fear of a potential penalty that is associated with reporting an infestation or this will quickly become a silent epidemic.
I feel your pain as a former landlord, but I am afraid that pest control expenses are going to be a bigger slice of the budget unless we have an educated and vigilant group of neighbors that promptly report any sign of a bed bug infestation. I have no doubt that bed bugs will cause financial ruin for many affected landlords.
Early detection of an infestation is the best alternative that is currently available. We need to figure out how to encourage residents to promptly report problems...Many people have expressed a reluctance to call 311 to report a bed bug problem because they fear a bad reference from their landlord...adding a serious financial disincentive & extensive litigation into the process would only make a bad problem much worse...much faster.
Publicly funded pest control is currently available in England. Spreading the cost to all taxpayer is unlikely to be politically popular, but that is the only solution that I can see that would effectively address the tremendous financial burdens that bed bugs create for residents and landlords.
Best Regards
Doug Summers MS -
nightshirt
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Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 455
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 28 2007 8:41:10
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i did not mean to be mean. i just wanted jade to know that no time can be wasted in trying to decide who pays for the pco. pay for it, learn from it and move on. that is my opinion NBOM
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nightshirt, I know you didn't, honest. And your opinions are welcome. Just trying to keep the tone friendly on all sides. We've had a lot of drama lately.
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jadebb
newbite
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 10
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 28 2007 11:56:01
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There is a lot of drama on this board from nightshirt and hopelessnomo, I ask a question and then they turn nasty! All I read on these boards are how the landlords are at fault.
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You received several very thoughtful responses on this thread and the other one you started and yet this is all you take away from this discussion.
Your only intention was to provoke, not to glean any useful information. I'm sorry I ever took the time to reply to you. What exactly were you expecting? Self-abasement?
Don't worry, Nobugs, I'm out.
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buggedinbrooklyn
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Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 120
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 28 2007 13:57:31
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Dear Jade,
anyone who has to deal with bedbugs are a victim.
tenants, landlords, we are all in the same boat...victims.
regardless of who might be the source, even the source is a victim.quote "I do empathise with the people who get bed bugs unintentionally, I don't believe anyone wants to have them."
all victims of bedbugs have never intentionaly wanted them...
not one of your tenents asks a shopkeeper to only sell them an item with bedbugs in them, or hoped that the bed they took off the street had bugs in them.since you can get bedbugs from many ways in life that are unavoidable, just what are you asking from the source victim?
here are a few ways that you can get bedbugs that you might not already know...
going to the movies
going to your local bar or resteraunt
ridding the bus or subway
taking a taxi ride
getting them from your job or work
buying NEW furniture
visiting your doctor/dentest
having visitors or visiting your friends/family
staying at a hotel
there are far more ways of getting bedbugs, but I don't have the time to list them all.so what do you want your tenants to do? stop living out thier lives?
should they stop going to work to help pay thier rent?
stop visiting thier doctors and family befote they have an infestation?
should they stop eating out or maybe stop going to the movies?
should they never buy new furniture?
should they never take a trip to aunt Becky, and stay at a hotel?in some cases landlords have to pay for the PCO, in some cases they dont.
this is determend by the law, not by the source of the infestation...regardless of your feelings on this matter.while you sound like a fine landlord, let us remember that we should never blame a victim for anything that may have happened to them.
bedbug victims, both landlord and tenants, are all victims here in this horror show.sadly, not all landlords are good in dealing with this problem.
the same could be said for some tenants.
regardless, even if you do know who the source is, they should be treated as a victim, and with the highest amount of respect.Jade, if you want to vent, please do so.
but not at the cost of the fine people here, who you also have not ansered thier questions.thank you,
buggedinbrooklynP.S. I'm a co-op owner, and dont rent my apt.
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TorontoBugged
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Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 147
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 28 2007 14:14:53
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Jade,
For property managers who have to live in the properties they manage, you'll have to deal with it because in my mind it will naturally become part of the regular upkeep expenses of property managers.
Similar to people who come to live in apartments and discover they'll have to live with roaches while they're still residing in that apartment building. These are the cons of having to live with others. And unfortunately, that will be part of the job. I don't see how it would be possible to eradicate a serious bed bug infestation in high-rise apt. buildings.
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Jade,
My request to keep this discussion friendly goes to you too. -
Buggedinbrooklyn
"Regardless of who might be the source, even the source is a victim" is the essential insight at the heart of this issue. Thank you for making that observation with everyday examples of how virtually anyone can become a victim.
Doug Summers MS
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Amen.
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