Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed Bug Treatment
Low Humidity
(42 posts)-
StepInTime
newbite
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 2offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 6 2011 13:52:46
#
Login to Send PM
Has anyone tried having a good dehumidifier running with humidity down to 40%, along with diatomaceous earth and other remedies? I have heard that the bedbugs do not survive well humidity at or lower than 40-50%. Thanks!
-
oldtimer
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 2,553offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 6 2011 14:13:48
#
Login to Send PM
Not really going to do much in an indoor setting against bed bugs IMO.
They love wood right? Well, most of the time they get deep into cracks and crevices of wood and that would be a dry environment. It would help with other insects but I don't think it would make much of a difference with a human parasite.
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 6 2011 21:13:49
#
Login to Send PM
StepinTime,
Your post in another thread was much more direct in suggesting similar methods (as well as suggesting DIY heating a home to 95C, which is 203 F!) and has been deleted.
Asking questions as above is fine, but please do not post experimental ideas for treatments which are unlikely to work and/or dangerous to property. Some people may think you know what you're doing and they may be very disappointed with the results.
-
StepInTime
newbite
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 2offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 6 2011 23:25:23
#
Login to Send PM
Nobugsonme,
I think that you must have misunderstood my previous post in response to the thread started by the landlord with the very poor and dangerous idea of DIY. I think that I may have made a typo and typed 95C when I meant 95F, I do not remember what I typed exactly, and it was quickly written. I did not clarify that I meant (which I should have) that Alabama gets very hot in the summer, indeed naturally to 95F (not Celsius). Bedbugs do not like those kind of temperatures. The desperate woman to whom I was responding lives in Alabama. I really should have made this clear. In the last sentence of my post, I thought that I made it unambigous that I disappoved of the landlord's idea and thought that she "should not do something that could cause a fire or endanger someone's life!" I am sorry that I was not sufficiently clear. I was not advocating the landlord's dangerous and experimental idea. I did mention a dehumidifier, which many people use for allergies or to remove mold. They only go down to 40% and are not dangerous to use. I apologize if it sounded like an experimental idea; it was not meant to be. The whole point of my post to the desperate woman was to say please, do not follow this idiotic idea of the landlord's! Apparently, I fumbled it.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Mar 7 2011 2:33:08
#
Login to Send PM
Bed bugs are the camels of the insect world
This is a quote from Usinger's Monograph
It is generally stated that human bed bugs are but little, if at all, affected by the different degrees of humidity that are normally encountered in human dwellings (Kemper 1936). Relative humidities ranging from 10 to 70% were tested and found to have a negligible effect on the rate of development of nymphs of C. lectularius (Rivnay 1932b).
Low humidity is not a useful tool for bed bug control... Temperature and feeding opportunities are the key environmental factors that affect mortality, reproduction and development. of bed bug populations
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Mar 7 2011 3:19:52
#
Login to Send PM
StepInTime - 3 hours ago »
Nobugsonme,
I think that you must have misunderstood my previous post in response to the thread started by the landlord with the very poor and dangerous idea of DIY. I think that I may have made a typo and typed 95C when I meant 95F, I do not remember what I typed exactly, and it was quickly written. I did not clarify that I meant (which I should have) that Alabama gets very hot in the summer, indeed naturally to 95F (not Celsius). Bedbugs do not like those kind of temperatures.StepinTime,
I appreciate the tone and tenor of your response, and you are welcome to the forums.
You may not realize this, but temperatures of 95F will not kill bed bugs. So while they are unlikely to damage the home (as 95C might), they also will not solve the problem.
DIY heat treatment is not likely to work and may drive bed bugs deeper into the structure of the home. If temperatures which are likely to kill bed bugs are produced by an inexperienced person, they may well damage their home or belongings.
I did mention a dehumidifier, which many people use for allergies or to remove mold. They only go down to 40% and are not dangerous to use. I apologize if it sounded like an experimental idea; it was not meant to be. The whole point of my post to the desperate woman was to say please, do not follow this idiotic idea of the landlord's! Apparently, I fumbled it.
I appreciate that we're in agreement about the more dangerous ideas pursued in that other thread.
The dehumidifier idea is not likely to cause harm, but remember that someone might follow up by making a purchase they think is going to improve or solve their bed bug problem. And it appears this would not do that.
I appreciate that you're coming from a place of wanting to offer helpful tips. I hope you will hang around a while, learn a bit more from reading and more experienced participants, before suggesting ideas which are not likely to be helpful.
Do you have bed bugs, and what kind of treatment are you getting?
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Mar 8 2011 0:19:04
#
Login to Send PM
This is StepInTime's spouse.
We've had some itchy spots that we suspect are bedbug bites, but we've never seen a bedbug, a cast-off exoskeleton, or a fecal bloodstain.
I've read that low humidity makes bedbugs clump together and become quiescent, and will kill the early instars if they don't get a meal. (Benoit 2007) So we're running the dehumidifier. We had a lot of clutter. So far I've cleared out only what's closest to the bed, and replaced it with new "clutter" made of white posterboard in hopes of getting confirmation instead of making them retreat to new hiding places where they would be inaccessible -- or infest more of our belongings, or neighbors. (Well, I don't really hope to get confirmation, of course, because that would mean we have them.) I've bought mattress covers, advertised as bedbug-proof, for both the mattress and the foundation. I inspected the mattress with a magnifying glass before covering it, but did not use a flashlight. I took the bottom flimsy-cloth off the foundation, vacuumed what I could reach, and dumped the scant contents of the vacuum-cleaner cup out onto butcher paper to examine it with the magnifying glass. Then I misted the inside of the foundation with one part Murphy's oil soap to one part water, covered it, and reinforced the cover with duct tape where it contacts the bed frame. I ran the pillows in the dryer and put an extra layer of zippered pillowcases on them. (Not an entirely adequate barrier, but I didn't think about pillowcases when I was shopping.) I've ordered a set of ClimbUps and a bag of diatomaceous earth. I'm not planning to put on the ClimbUps or get serious about de-cluttering until I've got the DE.
I may have told StepInTime that bedbugs do not thrive in conditions of >94F and <30% relative humidity -- respectively, the critical temperature for first-instar nymphs measured in Benoit 2007 and the number mentioned there as the lower limit of comfortable normal household humidity.
So my impression is that yes, low humidity and safely-DIY-achievable heat does kill bedbugs, but only if they can't cluster and can't feed often enough to offset the water loss. It sounds to me from Benoit as though a dehumidifier ought to be an immensely valuable part of a bedbug eradication plan: when the population is knocked down by pesticide application, the remaining individuals can be too few to cluster effectively but more than adequate to re-establish the infestation if they aren't finished off. In winter, very low humidity is achievable because the amount of moisture in outdoor air is low. In summer, heat-wave temperatures (i.e. over 102F, the critical temperature for adult females) are achievable just from the waste heat given off by the dehumidifier and fans. The crevices where bugs hide won't quickly get up to air temperature, of course. But non-lethal exposure to low humidity increases the bugs' need to feed, and decreases their ability to disperse to more remote harborage sites, which should contribute to the effectiveness of other eradication measures.
It's not a magic bullet, or even a primary measure, as Benoit in effect says. But I don't see how the facts in Benoit can be squared with the conclusion that dehumidification is wholly ineffective.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Mar 8 2011 20:22:30
#
Login to Send PM
Raising the temperature over 102 degrees F is going to have a major effect on development.
I have a copy of the study that you are referring to...but I do understand how low humidity is going to facilitate control of bed bugs in a room with a host.
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/5/987
This species is characterized by a low net transpiration rate averaging < 0.2%/h, high tolerance for dehydration (30–40% loss in body water), and an impermeable cuticle as indicated by a high critical transition temperature (CTT) in the 35–40°C range, implying that this insect is adapted for desiccation-hardiness
This is a quote from the abstract... I do not have a good link for the full article... I think I found it in the Armed Forces Pest Management Electronic Library ( Link on Resource page)
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Mar 8 2011 21:06:29
#
Login to Send PM
Hi Supercal,
Thanks for giving more detailed information. There is a difference between affecting development and killing some bed bugs as opposed to using this as a treatment method to eliminate your problem.
I won't comment further on the dehumidifier issue. It's not my area of expertise, so I will leave that to others.
I am not an expert on heat either, but I do know that the temperature of 94 F will not kill off all bed bugs present. As I understand it, even heating the home to 102 F as you suggest, or higher, may backfire and affect your situation in a negative manner.
The thermal death point is 113 F (45 C). Unfortunately, it would not be enough to get the temps in the room up to that point, since the killing temperatures would have to be reached throughout the entire structure and to the core of every item in it.
Not doing so can mean spreading your bed bugs deeper into your home (as they seek cooler areas). I understand that the speed with which temperatures are created also affects whether this treatment is successful or not.
If bed bugs go deeper in search of cooler areas, it can mean that even more extreme methods must be used to eliminate the problem.
I understand that when thermal heating of a home is done professionally, they go to between 120F-140F and monitor the area to make sure everything reaches the killing temperatures -- at the very core of the item.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Mar 9 2011 8:59:06
#
Login to Send PM
The link to the full article:
http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/full/76/5/987I found it through PubMed, on nih.gov.
They survive 16 days with no food or water, in zero humidity. (Shorter for nymphs, longer if it's cool or they can cluster.) That's impressive resistance to dessication. Certainly running a dehumidifier isn't a mass-death single-treatment proposition. Water loss is proportional to how far below saturated the air is, if I read it right, so at 30% relative humidity the number should go up to 23 days. But contrast that 23 days with several months under typical conditions.
As for heating, it seems as though the way to use it DIY would be with non-killing temperatures in adjacent apparently-uninfested rooms, to drive the bugs out of the walls and into easier-to-find hiding places inside the bedroom (such as passive monitors like BB-Alert).
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 10 2011 2:02:19
#
Login to Send PM
Super...
Thanks for posting the link
This is a quote from the discussion section
From this study it is clear that the water balance strategy of C. lectularius emphasizes water retention. These effective water-conserving traits are supplemented behaviorally by a quiescence marked by periods of inactivity and a group effect that enhances protection against desiccation stress. Effective water conservation thus enables the bed bugs to persist for long periods without rehydration. It would appear that the human comfort standards of 0.30–0.50av and 22–24°C create an ideal habitat for C. lectularius. As long as a host is available on occasion for blood feeding, the species is well adapted to survive the water balance challenges encountered in most human dwellings.
I suspect that you may have misinterpreted something here... It states that 30% to 50% av and 71.6 - 75.2 degrees Fahrenheit will create the ideal habitat for C. lectularius .
It is primarily the temperature of 102 degrees F that will shorten the lifespan of bed bugs down to 3-4 weeks... The 565 day survival of a single 5th instar and the 484 day group average figures came from a study that was run at about 50 degrees F in the late 30s and early 40s... Some modern studies are producing different results.
The development curve flatlines at about 97 degrees F. which reduces the lifespan of an adult to about 34 days according to Usinger's Monograph.
A bed bugs longevity and rate development is primarily determined by ambient temperature, host availability and level of activity... The curve peaks around 45 - 50 degrees F and the lifespan is foreshortened as the temp rises
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 10 2011 3:45:32
#
Login to Send PM
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - 18 hours ago »
As for heating, it seems as though the way to use it DIY would be with non-killing temperatures in adjacent apparently-uninfested rooms, to drive the bugs out of the walls and into easier-to-find hiding places inside the bedroom (such as passive monitors like BB-Alert).You're assuming heat applied to adjacent rooms will "drive them out of the walls" and into the (hotter) room itself. However, if they're in the walls, and it's cooler inside the walls, why would they come out?
Do you have any reason to think bed bugs are hiding out in your walls?
I suggested above that incorrectly done heat treatments (and other misapplied treatments of various kinds) can spread bed bugs deeper into your walls.
However, if you don't start experimenting with DIY heat treatment (or bug bombs, etc.), then it seems they're much more likely to be in the rooms where people are living, to begin with. They're more likely to stay in the easier-to-find places in the bedroom and so on.
The idea behind BBAlert is that it is located near people sleeping, and most bed bugs are likely to want to harbor nearby. The monitor can then alert you to their presence.
So I guess I am perplexed about why you would want to use heat in such a way, even if it does what you say it does, which I would seriously doubt from what I have read. (I am not an expert on heat treatment, and perhaps others who are will comment.)
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 10 2011 9:12:18
#
Login to Send PM
You're assuming heat applied to adjacent rooms will "drive them out of the walls" and into the (hotter) room itself.
That's not what I said. I said it would make sense to heat up apparently non-infested adjacent rooms, so that the bedroom wall gets warm and they move out of the wall into the cool bedroom. In the bedroom, they would find passive monitors to hide in. In passive monitors, we would find them.
This requires getting the temperature up only to the level of a very hot summer day, in the adjoining room. I don't see the danger in that, assuming you're using the same precautions you always would with an electric heater, keeping it an adequate distance from other objects and so on.
My impression is that they normally live mostly in the bed itself, but with a modest number scattered through furniture and clutter very close to the bed, and a highly-significant few dispersing to incredibly-hard-to-find places like inside the light switches and electrical outlets.
The ones in the bed can be dealt with by making sure your encasements don't tear. The ones in the clutter can be dealt with by clearing away the clutter and either heat-treating it or just leaving it bagged for however-many months. The ones in the furniture can be dealt with one piece of furniture at a time, with hair dryers, Murphy's oil soap, and pesticides.
The ones dispersed to tiny crevices and so on, though, present the greatest risk that they'll survive and re-establish the infestation, requiring re-treatment. If you can find every last one of those places, great. But it sounds as though people usually don't. Heating the adjacent rooms won't warm up all of those spots enough to get bugs to move into the nice cool bedroom next to the food source, of course. For one thing, some of the hard-to-find places are in exterior walls. But finding some and warming some seems as though it would have a better chance than finding some and not warming any.
It states that 30% to 50% av and 71.6 - 75.2 degrees Fahrenheit will create the ideal habitat for C. lectularius .
I'm saying that the more-dessicating edge of the comfortable range ought to make them depend more on their main defenses against dessication: clustering together, staying close to the host, and feeding often. That's what I want them to do. (Well, I don't want them to feed often. But I do want them to need to feed often, so that they don't go exploring.) I don't expect low humidity to kill bugs. I expect low humidity to minimize dispersal and thus maximize the chance that other techniques will kill bugs.
The bedroom is also the most humid room of the apartment, because that's where we breathe all night and it's not where the dehumidifier is. I can feel the difference, so I expect they can too, given that moisture is often one clue to the location of prey.
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
-
buggyinsocal
oldtimer
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 2,440offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 10 2011 11:43:38
#
Login to Send PM
I'm a layperson, not a professional. But as someone who had heat treatment, I do take a pretty strong interest in it.
One thing about heat treatment that's worth noting is that properly done professional heat involves raising the temp inside the structure at a very specific rate. As it was explained to me, as the temp heats up, it gets warm enough that the bugs will seek out cooler hiding spots. Then, however, the temp has to be raised in those cooler hiding spots in order to get high enough to prod the bugs to flee looking for somewhere cooler. Done properly, at that point, the bugs flee the now-heated-up-beyond-comfort-and-safety-for-them spot into the even hotter exterior. At that point, wham, dead bugs.
Given the insulating nature of most items in today's homes, getting those cooler spots warm enough for that to happen basically won't happen inside structures without forcing air heated to well-above normal daytime temps into the residence. I know; my bed bug infestation happened in the middle of a southern California heatwave in the middle of the summer. It was in the upper 90s or low 100s outside. Like most apartments in southern California, mine is poorly insulated. If I turn off the window AC unit, my apartment regularly gets hot enough inside that chocolate melts if I don't store it in the fridge. Trust me; if it had been possible to use natural heat processes to kill the bugs or even wrangle them into specific rooms by raising the temp, I'd have known about it. Because my AC unit is in the living room, and because the bedroom has the smallest window and the least optimal airflow, my bedroom is often the warmest room in the apartment in the summer. Near as I can tell, the bugs never migrated into the living room.
And so Cal humidity levels--esp. during Santa Ana induced heat waves can be very low--generally around 10 to 15% if not in the single digits.
My experience suggests strongly to me that the most overwhelming motivator to bed bugs in terms of behavior is the presence of a living(and therefore warm), breathing (therefore exhaling carbon dioxide) food source. I suspect that to bed bugs, we're the equivalent of walking into a room that smells strongly of our favorite foods. Sure, the room next door might be slightly more comfortable, but it doesn't smell like baking bread, french fries, grilled steak, and hot chocolate all rolled into one. They're going to pick the smorgasbord every time.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 0:28:21
#
Login to Send PM
But I don't want to overcome the attraction of the smorgasbord, just the urge to wander. I want to get/keep them all in the bedroom, so that they don't infest belongings, neighboring apartments, or locations that might be missed when the place is treated.
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 1:19:19
#
Login to Send PM
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - 16 hours ago »
You're assuming heat applied to adjacent rooms will "drive them out of the walls" and into the (hotter) room itself.
That's not what I said. I said it would make sense to heat up apparently non-infested adjacent rooms, so that the bedroom wall gets warm and they move out of the wall into the cool bedroom. In the bedroom, they would find passive monitors to hide in. In passive monitors, we would find them.
This requires getting the temperature up only to the level of a very hot summer day, in the adjoining room..
I still am not sure why you think bed bugs are living in your walls and need to be encouraged to come out. (If they are, I don't think that heat in adjacent rooms would coax them out of a cooler area inside a wall.)That said, if they are living in your walls, they will come out -- to feed on people. And if a passive is nearby, they may harbor in it.
However, passive monitors are not traps, designed to catch and get rid of a bed bug population that way. They're simply to alert you to the presence, or continued presence of the bed bugs.
I do not think you're going to herd bed bugs where you want them, but the good news is, I don't think you need to. The biggest attractor for the bed bugs is you. No additional heating required.
What treatment are you using?
Getting a knowledgeable professional in to treat (with heat or otherwise) is the best bet if you can do it. If not,
dry vapor steam and dusts like DE can work if used carefully and appropriately, if you are looking for DIY methods.I just want to say, I do appreciate your creativity and thinking outside the box.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 8:18:17
#
Login to Send PM
It is generally stated that human bed bugs are but little, if at all, affected by the different degrees of humidity that are normally encountered in human dwellings (Kemper 1936). Relative humidities ranging from 10 to 70% were tested and found to have a negligible effect on the rate of development of nymphs of C. lectularius (Rivnay 1932b).
Not everything in the older sources is necessarily correct. I tried searching for Kemper, and here's what I found:
Some studies concluded that bed bugs
could not detect a human beyond 3–4 cm away
(Kemper 1929, Rivnay 1932)It's from Foraging and Communication Ecology of bed bugs, Siljander 2006, a very brief review. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.entsoc.org%2FPDF%2FPubs%2FPeriodicals%2FAE%2FAE-2006%2FSummer%2FSiljander.pdf&rct=j&q=cimex%20kemper&ei=vaV5TZz_C86jtgeBpbm6BQ&usg=AFQjCNHM7SukEZk9YCmn0-5hW28TOCNU8g&sig2=pqPjTlQBR-oa_AMhtgkPpQ&cad=rja
In a comparison of 10% and 90% humidity from 1941, they kept the bugs in small glass tubes, feeding them and counting eggs only once a week. How do you control the humidity inside a glass tube with a bunch of bugs in it, without letting the bugs out, using 1941 technology?
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 8:45:16
#
Login to Send PM
I still am not sure why you think bed bugs are living in your walls
Three reasons: First, because people frequently report finding them in walls. I'm not talking about the space between the layers of drywall, just the crevices around baseboards, the space behind light-switch cover plates, and so on. Second, because people have such trouble getting rid of them. If the bugs all lived in the bed and the clutter, people would just bag the bed, throw away the clutter, and poof, no bugs. Third, because that's what I'd do if I were a bug surrounded by kin, suffering from traumatic insemination, and topped off with a full tank of blood: I'd set off in search of new refugia to infest, and maybe even new hosts to live on.
That said, I'm not certain we have an infestation at all. We've had what look like bites, including a couple perfect examples of the "breakfast, lunch, and dinner" pattern. But we haven't had all that many looks-like-bites. Maybe they weren't bites to begin with, and the three-in-a-line was coincidence. Maybe we had a small infestation, entirely in the mattress and foundation, and dealt with it just by bagging them.
We're not using any treatment yet. The white-posterboard replacement clutter under the bed hasn't convinced any bugs to set up housekeeping there, but that's no evidence of anything: it could just be incompetently designed. How can I design passive monitors when I don't have any bugs to try them out on, and how can I find any bugs until I have working passive monitors? The solution is to use professional ones: I've ordered ClimbUps but they haven't arrived yet. I'm not planning to use pesticide, even DE, until I have better evidence that there actually are bugs. All I'm doing now is gradually de-cluttering, and letting the kids sleep in the bedroom with us. Well, that and running the dehumidifier, and checking the encasements and replacement clutter every couple days. And ordering stuff that takes a long time to arrive.
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 9:13:38
#
Login to Send PM
Super...
Three bites in a row are not a reliable diagnostic sign to identify bed bug bites... that is a myth.
The bites are sometimes in lines, but there is nothing special about three in a row... Two bites in close proximity are more common than three just because of the geometry... More likely for two points to be adjacent than three.
You are wise to confirm the presence of bugs before initiating any treatment... placing monitors in occupied areas is a good plan.
Visual inspection is your main tool... Here is an article from U of Minn written by Dr Kells from the Resource page that contains some useful tips.
http://www.ipmctoc.umn.edu/Control_of_bedbugs_in_residences_US_Commercial.pdf
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 12:39:34
#
Login to Send PM
One more thing I'm doing, since I saw it at Bed Bath & Beyond for a reasonable price: I'm going to give the sofa a nice cinnamon smell. I haven't read anything convincing about repellents, because it's all directed at the obvious fools' errand of repelling them from their sole source of food. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking that would work. On the other hand, it seems plausible to me that repellents they find even slightly unpleasant would get them to abandon one distant hiding place in favor of another that's closer to dinner and otherwise just as good.
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 18:47:56
#
Login to Send PM
Three reasons: First, because people frequently report finding them in walls. I'm not talking about the space between the layers of drywall, just the crevices around baseboards, the space behind light-switch cover plates, and so on.
This is true, but they have to come out to feed on you (which each will do at least once a week), so my point was, there's no need to try and scare them out of there by heating adjacent walls as you were describing, even if it would work.
Besides, rather than encouraging them to harbor closer to the bed, disturbing harborages may make them harbor in yet other places you have not thought of and do not want to happen.
Second, because people have such trouble getting rid of them. If the bugs all lived in the bed and the clutter, people would just bag the bed, throw away the clutter, and poof, no bugs. Third, because that's what I'd do if I were a bug surrounded by kin, suffering from traumatic insemination, and topped off with a full tank of blood: I'd set off in search of new refugia to infest, and maybe even new hosts to live on.What experts tell us is that they're more likely to be more dispersed into more places if treatment is done badly. (My understanding is that bug bombs or overapplication of even appropriate pesticides can do this.)
Or if people start sleeping in new places.
They're also more likely to be more dispersed over time. Sounds like you are dealing with an early problem, and I would not worry too much at this point.
(I am saying "dealing with" because I saw your note in the other thread that you found a bed bug.)
-
cilecto
oldtimer
Joined: Aug '08
Posts: 3,852offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 19:26:08
#
Login to Send PM
Lou Sorkin (loubugs) improvised a monitor with folded paper and also offered other tips here.
http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2010/01/23/an-evening-of-bed-bugs-contd/Check the ingredients on the spray. It's probably sodium lauryl/laureth sulfate (aka detergent) and maybe acetic acid (vinegar), with spices and oils. My best guess is it's a contact only killer. Any diluted detergent in a spray bottle should probably serve the same function, but if you like the product and the price is agreeable, what the heck.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Mar 11 2011 22:40:23
#
Login to Send PM
Yes, it's Rest Easy: sodium lauryl sulfate and spice oils. Contact-only killer, and (it claims) repellent. I bought it for the putative repellent effect rather than the contact kill. If I want to contact kill I'll use something that evaporates completely in fairly short order, like isopropanol. Leaving a supposed repellent in places where I find bugs just isn't my style: sure, I don't trust it to be a significant repellent. But I sure don't trust it not to, either. If I make their old favorite hiding places repellent to them, who knows where they'll head off to.
I didn't spritz the couch, though, having found the bug. If it is infested, I don't want to make it harder for the PCO to find them.
However, I'm embarrassed to admit that I did put Murphy's on the foundation before I vacuumed it -- partly on the thought that soap-traumatized bugs might be easier to vacuum or otherwise detect as I was getting ready to encase the foundation, partly because I didn't trust the encasement 100% and wanted any bugs mostly-trapped inside to die off before they could find their low-probability exit, but mostly because at the time I didn't really think we had bugs and wasn't bothering to think it through. So I may have spread them some, if Murphy's is a repellent.
Thanks for the link to the paper passive monitor. It's not that different from some of mine, but it's better.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sat Mar 12 2011 23:31:01
#
Login to Send PM
One of the components of cinnamon oil is listed as an insecticide:
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_ChemUse.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33596I presume that the "cinnamon oil" in Rest Easy is synthetic 100% cinnamaldehyde, based on the weasel words "cinnamon scent with natural essential oils", i.e. the cinnamon is an artificial "scent" and the other ones (at tenfold lower concentration) are natural essential oils. Dunno whether it's effective at the dose bugs would realistically receive when trying to cross an area previously sprayed with Rest Easy, though. Here's what they claim: http://www.resteasy4bedbugs.com/reportspdf/4kill_repel_report.pdf
http://www.resteasy4bedbugs.com/reportspdf/6rebbs%20efficacy%20report.pdf
http://www.resteasy4bedbugs.com/faq.phpIt's supposed to repel even when it's been there a week, but not when it's been there ten days. I'm thinking I may use it rather heavily on everything but the bedroom, ten days after the PCO has done their thing.
-
oldtimer
Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 1,874offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 4:16:47
#
Login to Send PM
Some studies concluded that bed bugs
could not detect a human beyond 3–4 cm away
(Kemper 1929, Rivnay 1932)That's correct for heat and "human smell", but the maximum distance for CO2 detection is about 80-100 cm (Reis 2010)
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 17:24:32
#
Login to Send PM
No detection of CO2 beyond one meter?
Could you provide more details on that study? .... Maybe your thoughts or observations on detection range?
One meter seems counter-intuitive.
Would that range be different for a sleeping human at 25 liters per hour vs an active CO2 monitor with a much lower rate of release?
-
oldtimer
Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 1,874offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 18:03:12
#
Login to Send PM
That's what I read here: An Evaluation of Bed Bug (Cimex lectularius L.) Host Location and Aggregation Behavior.
In my experience, if you enter in an infested room with starved BBs, they detect your presence in less than 15 minutes, and start to try to reach you from a distance bigger than one meter...
-
oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 18:26:31
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 21:42:02
#
Login to Send PM
Reis demonstrated host location from 100 cm under laboratory conditions. But 100 cm was the largest distance tried. The test enclosure was 2.4 m x 1.2 m, so they couldn't try much farther without the bug having to go toward the host or run into a wall.
Reis also says that CO2 monitors seem to work pretty well.
I'm wondering whether 100cm being the greatest distance checked has gotten mis-paraphrased into 100cm having been found to be the greatest distance they can locate hosts from.
-
cilecto
oldtimer
Joined: Aug '08
Posts: 3,852offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Mar 13 2011 22:13:09
#
Login to Send PM
I wonder if this didn't start as 8-10 meters and get messed up in scanning, editing or retelling.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Sat Mar 19 2011 13:37:11
#
Login to Send PM
FWIW, I still have a favorable impression of low humidity plus a moderately high thermostat setting. Yes, people need to understand that it won't kill BBs outright. But I've gone over the apartment a lot more in the intervening days, I've found relatively few bugs, and we haven't noticed any new bites in the last few days. It's just one case plus some reading, of course, but I think that if the conditions had been ideal for them the problem would likely have progressed more in the time between the first "is that a bite?" and the major effort after I saw a bug.
It will be a long time before I really know how this ends, but finding no early-instar nymphs seems to me like a very good sign.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Mar 29 2011 17:26:12
#
Login to Send PM
From Usinger's monograph, p 31:
"The process [of molting and expanding the new cuticle] requires only a few minutes under favorable conditions of temperature and humidity but may be delayed because of previous injury of a part or because of excessive dryness. Since the new cuticle, after quickly expanding, starts to harden, a delay of 2 hours results in death."
(end quote)In a well-established infestation, molts will presumably occur in aggregations of bugs, where the humidity is high enough. But when only a handful of bugs are present, and those are scattered because of vacuuming or steaming of the main harborage sites, it sounds as though "excessive dryness" could appreciably increase the mortality rate of nymphs.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 31 2011 14:06:15
#
Login to Send PM
Johnson (1941) reports starving adult bugs under 90% and 10% relative humidity at various temperatures. At 23C (73.4° F) he reports a maximum survival for females of 126 days at 90% RH but only 67 days at 10% RH.
-
senior member
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 630offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 31 2011 17:16:19
#
Login to Send PM
Super-
Please be careful when taking lab results and applying them to the field. From your posts, under lab conditions low humidity effects bed bugs negatively, this does not mean it will automatically translate to field conditions, take for example my local field condition, Denver, Colorado. One of the driest cities in the US, extremely low relative humidity, also one of the worst bed bug infested cities in the US. If low humidity is something that they don't like in a field setting, my guess is they would just find an area nearby with a little more humidity and it wouldn't effect their ability to propogate etc at all. I will submit as evidence denver, cheyenne, las vegas, phoenix, and tucson. In the field, the bugs are telling us that humidity doesn't effect them at all.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 31 2011 17:52:41
#
Login to Send PM
Low outdoor humidity is obviously not going to do anything. Homes are fairly well weatherized these days, and we breathe out a lot of water, even if we're not cooking or showering. Infestation rates in Denver tell us nothing about whether low humidity does any good or not.
Brief low indoor humidity obviously doesn't do anything either. How many field observations do we have with sustained low indoor humidity? With a sample size of 1 and no confirmation of competence at inspecting, I've found adults and an egg but no early-instar nymphs. That's very little evidence indeed, but positive what there is of it.
-
senior member
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 630offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Mar 31 2011 19:45:53
#
Login to Send PM
Indoor humidity is just as brutally dry here unless you run a whole house humidifier which most people don't. I could take a picture of my cracked hands as further proof.
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Apr 1 2011 6:41:26
#
Login to Send PM
The dew point in Denver is only a few degrees lower than here. Last time I looked it was the other way 'round.
In Denver, the average dew point for last June was 46° F. In Boston, the average dew point for last December was 20° F. If the indoor humidity followed outdoor humidity so strictly as you suggest, I would notice it here in the winter.
When it's cold out, there's almost no water in the outdoor air. Almost all the indoor humidity comes from indoor sources. If Bostonians breathe enough to humidify our homes into the normal range during the winter (and we do, unless we're leaving windows open), the same amount of breathing would humidify a home in Denver almost as well.
-
senior member
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 630offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Apr 1 2011 12:33:47
#
Login to Send PM
Ok, so where we ar in this good natured argument is that your position is it is just as dry in Boston as Denver/Las Vegas? Or at least indoors? Why are my hands cracked? Do they even sell whole house humdifiers in Boston? They do here. I will have to refer to a study by the National Humidity Institute located at 2705 sw frontage rd here in Fort Collins. It clearly shows that are indoor humidity is lower than the east coast. The good news is that tape still sticks as well here as in humid environs. All light hearted teasing aside, I do worry that desparate people may spend money on dehumidifiers instead of on things they should and thus allow their problems to get worse.
-
oldtimer
Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 6,761offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Apr 1 2011 13:11:51
#
Login to Send PM
Nice to see via googlemaps that the quality of research establishments that you hang out has gone up in the recent weeks Professor James
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=2705+sw+frontage+rd+fort+collins&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.157147,39.506836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=2705+SW+Frontage+Rd,+Fort+Collins,+Colorado+80525,+United+States&ll=40.550657,-105.008655&spn=0.004125,0.009645&t=h&z=17I can only assume they are leading the field in cranial proctol extraction or do they only specialise in downstream processes?
I can however confir that humidity control does not have a role to play in IPM in the domestic or commercial envrionments and if it did I am sure we would fall within the realms of the mighty arm and hammer.
The physics of "cul de sacs" and crevices means that you would have to get the rest of the room to such a dry state that it would take huge levels of energy consumption to affect the almost sealed micro climates.
I think the only thing this thread is missing is input on the sociological manifesto that is bedbugs.
David
-
senior member
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 630offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Apr 1 2011 13:50:45
#
Login to Send PM
Curses! Mr. Cain with his Google Earth. I'll have you know that the local sanitation district actually doubles as the National Institute of Humidity! So swallow down those facts with your next half orange juice half coke. Don't you have a royal wedding to prepare for :)?
-
oldtimer
Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 6,761offline
Posted 2 years ago
Fri Apr 1 2011 13:58:02
#
Login to Send PM
djames1921 - 4 minutes ago »
Don't you have a royal wedding to prepare for :)?No my duty is over after the stag night
Very much looking forward to the spike in bedbugs we are predicting for the weeks after though. We are thinking of it as a dry run for the games next summer.
David
-
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
member
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 247offline
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Apr 28 2011 10:54:59
#
Login to Send PM
Now that the dew point outside is in the 60s Fahrenheit, I'm less enthusiastic. The dehumidifier takes buckets and buckets of water out of the air, but it can't keep the humidity low enough to plausibly give a freshly-molted nymph any trouble.
On the other hand, if I didn't have the dehumidifier, the door would be so warped it wouldn't close, and the laundry would be all musty. That's what got me to buy the dehumidifier in the first place, when we had this kind of weather last year.
Reply
You must log in to post.
