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K9 detected bed bugs but no evidence. Is it safe to say I don't have bed bugs?
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pleasenobedbugs
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 4
Posted 3 months ago
Sun Aug 23 2009 11:03:50
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I got back from a 2 week trip to S. America (where I didn’t get a single bite) last Friday, slept in my bed Friday night and then woke up on Saturday morning with 13 bites on my lower legs. I freaked out and slept on my couch in the living room Saturday and Sunday nights and did not get a single bite. On Monday I had a bed bug dog come in and sniff. He alerted his handler to 4 points in my bedroom but no where else in my small 1 bedroom apartment. The handler gave me tips to isolate my bed and told me not to sleep on the couch or else the bed bugs would follow me to my living room. So I called the same extermination company that sent the dog and scheduled an appointment for them to come spray on Friday. I started prepping their crazy list (washing all clothes and bagging them, moving furniture out, and basically putting everything in my apt in plastic bags) and then slept in a hotel Monday and Tuesday night. On Wednesday my super decided to bring in our building’s exterminator (since I had alerted him about my bed bugs) and my building’s exterminator told me he didn’t think I had bed bugs because he could not find any physical evidence (no bugs, no eggs, no shell castings, no feces, no blood stains). He put glue traps out and told me to sleep in my bed. Since I was scared of getting bit again, I put double-sided carpet tape on the edges of my mattress and have been sleeping in my bed for the past 4 nights. I have not had one single bite and have seen no physical evidence of bed bugs (and have caught no bugs in the glue traps or double sided tape). I called up the bed bug dog company and they told me that it makes no sense not to think there are not bed bugs just because you can’t find physical evidence of them because they are hard to find early on in the infestation. He also told me that their dog has never been wrong before. My exterminator thinks they were just mosquitoes that bit me. I am inclined to think maybe my exterminator is correct now and I just overreacted after getting my initial bites. It’s been 9 days since I woke up with those bug bites and I have not been bit once and have not seen any signs of bed bugs. Do you think it’s safe for me to say I don’t have bed bugs now and can start putting all my clothes back in my bedroom? Or should I wait longer?
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jessip
newbite
Joined: Sep '08
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Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 7:53:11
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If your dog guy told you their dog has "never been wrong", you need to inform everyone who this company is. They shouldn't have made that statement.
jessip
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IN HELLS Kitchen
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 16
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 9:01:18
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pleasenobedbugs:
I had a dog come to our apt after finding a few bites in the BLD fashion. The first time, dog gave no alerts and we thought we were in the clear. Then, three weeks later (and no visual signs of bugs or bites), we found a mature bed bug in one of our dressers, so we had the dog come back again, and he alerted to several points in our apt--strangely though, not to the offending dresser. We have since had our first of two treatments.
My point here is that while the dogs can be helpful at times, they are also often unreliable, as in my case. The people who I used were Bell Enviromental. They were very nice and had excellent customer service. However, because of the inaccuracy of the canine and their "enviromental" methods (which are not as effective as a multi-tiered approach) I would not recommend them. If you live in the NYC area, PM me and I'll give you the name of the PCO I used, who was recommended by a friend of mine who sucessfully got rid of them.
The truth is that your evidence is waking up with 13 bites in one night. I wouldn't wait for physical evidence, I'd have a professional PCO come by and treat now. Just because they haven't fed on you in a while, doesn't mean they're gone. It could mean that they're dormant or laying eggs, etc (the bed we found was a female.) Case in point, we still haven't been bit in over a month, but when we had the apt treated and dried our clothes, we did find a few dead bugs, as evidence. The longer you wait to treat, the worse the infestation can get.
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cilecto
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Joined: Aug '08
Posts: 516
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 9:18:59
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Consider that you may have had a delayed reaction to bites received outside your home and/or you managed to contain your problem in the course of your prep.
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pleasenobedbugs
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 4
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 11:18:07
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jessip - 3 hours ago »
If your dog guy told you their dog has "never been wrong", you need to inform everyone who this company is. They shouldn't have made that statement.
jessipThe company I used is M&M Pest Control. They were extremely nice and accommodating, but I was surprised that they made that statement as well. They said they've never had a case where the dog alerted to bed bugs and it turned out there weren't any and then went on about how he's one of twenty-something certified dogs in the country and extensive training, etc.
The last time I got bit was 10 days ago. I think I read somewhere that bedbugs need to feed every 3-5 days? If there were eggs, shouldn't they have hatched by now? I don't want to treat unnecessarily because #1 it's very expensive and I am currently unemployed and #2 it's very time consuming and exhausting to prepare my apt for a treatment!
Thanks everyone for your replies!
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ohnoitsbedbugs
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 7
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 16:00:04
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I also used M&M and am now struggling to decide whether the positive I got from them was a false positive. This is in a new apartment, with (according to the mgmt co, which I trust) no history of bed bugs. I just had the inspection as a precaution. I've since slept in the apartment (on an air mattress) to test the dog's diagnosis. In the first week I got a couple of bug bites, but nothing definitive -- could well have been mosquitoes. Then the mgmt co had their exterminator treat as a precaution, and in the next couple of days I got a lot of bites, but again, I haven't seen any actual bed bugs or other evidence so I don't know what to do. I'm considering breaking my lease, but without hard evidence I'm worried I won't be able to get my first month's rent/security deposit back. I'm scared/stressed/confused. I don't really know what to do. So, pleasenobedbugs, I sympathize.
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pleasenobedbugs
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 4
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 17:14:13
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ohnoitsbedbugs - 1 hour ago »
I also used M&M and am now struggling to decide whether the positive I got from them was a false positive. This is in a new apartment, with (according to the mgmt co, which I trust) no history of bed bugs. I just had the inspection as a precaution. I've since slept in the apartment (on an air mattress) to test the dog's diagnosis. In the first week I got a couple of bug bites, but nothing definitive -- could well have been mosquitoes. Then the mgmt co had their exterminator treat as a precaution, and in the next couple of days I got a lot of bites, but again, I haven't seen any actual bed bugs or other evidence so I don't know what to do. I'm considering breaking my lease, but without hard evidence I'm worried I won't be able to get my first month's rent/security deposit back. I'm scared/stressed/confused. I don't really know what to do. So, pleasenobedbugs, I sympathize.Maybe you could put out glue traps or double-sided carpet tape to see if you can catch anything. Also, one way to determine if it's mosquitoes or not would be to put on Off bug repellent on before you go to bed. Bed bugs are not repelled by Off, so if you still get bites that could indicate that they're bed bugs biting you and if you don't get bit anymore, maybe it's mosquitoes then. I dunno, just trying to offer some advice. It's so scary not knowing what's biting you! I'm still waiting to see if I get anymore bites before I put all my clothes back in my closet and start resuming a normal life.
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Smart Canine
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 21:02:35
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This is unfortunate. These companies that have purchased the questionable bed bug dogs and who operate primanily in NY city area boarder, on being a scam. They travel with these small dogs all day in taxis's and on subways amd in bags that are hot and uncomfortable. In addition, the dogs suffer from early burnout, from hot hallways and apartments, that leads to the shuting down of their olfactory sense, from being over heated. It is no wonder that the dogs are producing false positives and false negatives.
Smart Canine
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Mon Aug 24 2009 22:32:54
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There is no such thing as a perfect scent detection canine. They are animals and just like us are capable of making mistakes.
Since they are also food driven, the chance of a dog making a mistake that gives them a reward is inevitable.
The difference between a good handler/company is whether they have the ability to know the difference between a false positive and a real positive.
Sean
Entomologist/Pest Professional
www.bedbugresource.com -
Smart Canine
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 9:54:07
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Sean, how is that you present yourself from time-to-time- as an expert in canine behavior? Are you not an entomologist? Please inform us of your credentials and lenth of time that you worked in the area of canine behavior.
Smart Canine
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 16:16:27
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I am a certified K9 handler in bed bug scent detection. I did my training with the Florida Canine Academy under the tutelage of Bill Whitestine. I work with a dog out of Vancouver Canada.
Why is there something that I have said that you disagree with?
Sean.
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Smart Canine
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 17:07:55
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I think the issue of those claiming certification as a handler or, with their K9 has been a
point of contention before. The question is, can a for profit orginization like Florida Canine Acadamy ligitmately certify their own dogs and handlers that they train? I think not.
Therefor, your certification is worth about as much as the paper that it is written on. Had you said your training and certification was from an institution like Auburn University Canine Research Institute I would say your coments would have more credability though, still incorrect.Smart Canine
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Smart Canine
Auburn does not certify bed bug dogs or their handlers.Perhaps you would like to explain your credentials as an expert.
M & M owns a NESDCA certified K9... NESDCA is the group that is affiliated with Pepedogs
At this point, the certification provided by the trainer is the best available indicator for the consumer that the K9 team is professionally trained...
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 21:33:21
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Smart Canine - 4 hours ago »
Therefor, your certification is worth about as much as the paper that it is written on.
WOW.
So are you saying that I have no clue what I am talking about?
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Smart Canine
newbite
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Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 22:58:27
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No Sean. I would not dispute your knowedge of bugs. I do however, as other contributers have, take issue with, your claim of having gone through a legitimate certification process that verifys your dog as reliable bed bug detection dog and your ability as a dog handler. Your going to defend yourself and your dogs capability because you paid a lot of money for your dog and make a lot of mony with your dog and the treatment bussinees generated from using the dog. On the other hand, Doug your going to defend "your" Florida Canine Acadamy bussineses questionable certification process because you make your living from selling and training bed bug dogs. Why... is it that Bill Whitestine has never provided commentary in response to many of the K9 issues discussed on Bed Bugger? Does he really exist? Prove to us that Florida Canine Acadamy's certification is done with a independent third party unattached to the bussiness. The fact is Doug, you can't. You won't even provide a published list of all the people that have purchased your bed bug detection dogs. Makes one wonder why.
Smart Canine
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Please quote the portion of the comment that you believe is incorrect.
I agree with Sean .... The K9 is a screening tool... Ultimately any proper bed bug inspection is a visual search for physical evidence of an infestation...
Bill exists ... Run a Google Search...Watch the "Bed Bug Dogs on the Today Show" video below to hear Bill Whitstine speak about BedBugDogs
[+] Embed the video Get the Video Plugins -
pleasenobedbugs
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 4
Posted 2 months ago
Tue Aug 25 2009 23:19:51
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So it has now been 11 days since I first got those 13 bug bites and still no signs of bed bugs and no more bites (yay!). Is it safe for me to say I don't have bed bugs? Can I take out all of my clothes from their plastic baggies and start putting them back in the closet and start resuming a normal, much less paranoid life?
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Pleasenobedbugs
Depends on how you weigh the evidence?
If we throw out the unconfirmed K9 alerts... Then the evidence to date would suggest that you can relax...
The classic time frame is 60 days bite free...
At this point, I would consider trying some of the inexpensive passive monitors like the Climb Up Insect Interceptor or the BBAlert to see if you can capture a specimen.... The traps can be used for long term surveillance as well.
Each week that you do not experience bed bug activity should be cause for additional celebration.
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 0:04:08
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Smart Canine - 52 minutes ago »
No Sean. I would not dispute your knowedge of bugs. I do however, as other contributers have, take issue with, your claim of having gone through a legitimate certification process that verifys your dog as reliable bed bug detection dog and your ability as a dog handler.If others have taken issue with my knowledge of bed bug K9s I am certainly unaware of it. They are welcome to voice their concerns. What have I said that you take issue with?
As for you Smart Canine, this is the first I have heard of you, unless of course you are a past poster that has created a new account. The four posts that you have are all on this thread so I really don't have much to go on.
We are all certainly entitled to our opinions and while yours are certainly strong to the point of personal attacks, I still welcome them. This is a forum for open discussion.
Since you so candidly asked who I was and what my credentials are please indulge us with yours.
Sean.
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Smart Canine - 1 day ago »
This is unfortunate. These companies that have purchased the questionable bed bug dogs and who operate primanily in NY city area boarder, on being a scam. They travel with these small dogs all day in taxis's and on subways amd in bags that are hot and uncomfortable. In addition, the dogs suffer from early burnout, from hot hallways and apartments, that leads to the shuting down of their olfactory sense, from being over heated. It is no wonder that the dogs are producing false positives and false negatives.
Smart CanineSmart Canine,
I don't think false positives / false negatives are unique to NYC canine scent detection teams.
IMO ideally every dog handler will respond to "alerts" by then visually searching extensively in the area for a bed bug sample.
You seem to be painting NYC dog teams with a broad brushstroke: generalizing is easy but not very informative.
Of course, it's just as well you did not name the companies you thought were "a scam." Be warned: it's my understanding (though I'm not a lawyer) that doing so without being able to back up your claims with hard evidence can get you sued by those parties, even if you hide behind an anonymous handle.
If you yourself are associated with a bed bug k9, you should probably mention it (and which one) now.
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thebedbugresource
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Posts: 238
Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 9:49:57
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I am guessing that he/she is part of NESDCA in some form ...
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Smart Canine
newbite
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Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 13:49:51
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Sean, this is not a question about my credectials it is a question about yours. You made the claim "I am a certified K9 handler of bed bug scent detection," not me!
Scroll up eleven post. You said it! I disputed your claim about your certification being legitimate Because you and your K9's evaluation are not conducted by an independent third party not associated with the comapny that sold you your dog and who you received your training from. You hung your paper out. That made it fare game for dispute.
Doug Summers even made the statement eight posts back "At this point the certification provided by the trainer is the best available indicator for the consumer that the K9 team is professionally ...."
You got to be kidding! Now, if that statement dosen't point out a conflict of interest then what does?
Sean, if you are a certified entomologist you took an exam, that was over seen by an independent proctor who, you had no conection with.
That is not the process that took place with you and your K9. Doug already admitted it. The term "certification" is not only used loosely, it distorts the facts to the consumer, of the bed bug detection service being provided by K9 and K9 handler
Until there is a legitamite independent third party not associated with pest control and bed bug dogs that does the evealuation, use of the term and claim of "certification" should cease.
It is just the right thing to do, don't you agree?
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DistressInBrooklyn
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Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 35
Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 14:22:07
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dear pleasenobedbugs and ohnoitsbedbugs,
i can very much sympathize.
we also used M&M for our canine inspection. we had discovered a live bug crawling on our couch. we had Champ come out with his handler a few days later. though we haven't seen any other bugs or other signs, we have had bites here and there every few days.
Champ alerted on a suitcase in the bedroom, on our bed, and in one bookcase in the living room. he did not alert to the couch. His handler was very kind and thoughtful, but he was definitely distracted, and even actually forgot that Champ had alerted to one place until i reminded him. he did not inspect for any further physical evidence. the handler said Champ is 98% accurate.
i initially took a lot of comfort in the inspection, because i thought hey, not so bad -- at least he wasn't finding them everywhere. but knowing about the false positives, the wide range of real estate covered by an "alert," the many questionable experiences people have had with canine inspections -- i think i would have stuck with a crazy thorough physical inspection, or at least gone with a company that sent a certified inspector, not only a dog handler.
in our case, we decided to move ahead with full treatment -- bagging, packtiting, steam cleaning the couch (even tho the dog didn't alert there) the whole bit. but we've had bites, so that was an easy decision to make. in hindsight, though, i don't think the canine inspection did much for us -- we would have taken the same course of action. so, it just ended up being an additional $275 spent. maybe this helps others considering canine?
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BugzBGone
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Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 15:20:47
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WOW - This topic sure has gotten heated! I just wanted to add that my parents and I have used the services of Walter Penny & Mark Campbell and their dogs Macaroni and Cali in Denver, Colorado and they have been wonderful! Walter has prior PCO experience and Mark is a professional dog handler, so they make a great team. Both dogs alerted to the same areas in my parents' home (which is now being successfully treated by a PCO) and both dogs inspected my apartment and declared it alert free. I am resting much easier now knowing I am taking the right steps for my family and I to solve this terrible problem once and for all. Hang in there, folks - There ARE wonderful K9/Handler teams out there that can be a very valuable tool!
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 20:31:59
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Smart Canine,
I am really not sure what has set you off. If there is a piece of advice or information I have provided that you feel is incorrect (aside from my claim of certification) please let me know and we can debate it all you like.
Personally attacking me and my abilities is completely uncalled for as you have never met me (to my knowledge), nor have you ever observed what I am capable of. I do not need a piece of paper; I will let my reputation and actions stand for themselves.
If you have an issue with the Florida Canine Academy because they have wronged you or perhaps they are a competitor of yours then this discussion is clouded. If you are in fact associated with NESDCA (also based out of Florida) then perhaps this really not about anything more then rivalry.
Do I think that there are people out there unqualified to operate as bed bug detection teams ... absolutely. Anyone could train a family pet and claim that they are a bed bug detection expert. Teams can be certified by master trainers and then have the wheels come off. And sadly, it happens. Do I think that a once per year certification is going to prevent this ... not at all. Their business will fail long before the recertification is required.
Do I think that a regulatory body is a good idea? In principal, yes.
Who do you think that body should be? There is not currently one in existence other than NESDCA (to my knowledge) ... so let's discuss them.
Do I think NESDCA is that group? Perhaps. It is far too early to tell (to my knowledge they are in their second year). They are at a young stage and not entirely "3rd party" as they are in part run by a company that trains dogs and was formed by a group of pest controllers. This in itself is a conundrum ... who is watching them? Do they not stand to benefit as founders? They are a member of the NPMA and that is encouraging ... but the criteria needed to be a member of the NPMA is minimal.
Correct me if I am wrong ... NESDCA requires you to certify your dog once per year.
This is taken directly from their Bylaws/Rules
Certification Validity:
Upon successfully passing certification the Evaluator will issue a certificate stating the team is NESDCA certified as a
team to detect the scent for which they certified. The certification will be valid for one (1) year from the date of issue.Once a team passes a NESDCA certification the could literally begin to fail the next week because of a breakdown in the team dynamic. The certification paper holds as much weight as any other out there.
Why is a NESDCA certification any better than one from Bill Whitstine or any other notable/reputable scent detection trainer? If your claim is merely that there is no 3rd party involved then I suppose I can't argue that (but remember ... NESDCA is not entirely 3rd party either). But the person's or company's reputation is on the line if they are not providing quality training. They certify that when the team (canine and handler) finished the course they were proficient. Just as NESDCA does. What happens from there is up to the handler and the dog. It takes a special kind of person to work with a canine.
We regularly train with our dog daily to ensure accuracy (hides, scent discrimination wheels, blinds, etc.) and once per year our team is recertified via the Florida Canine Academy. All alerts in a client setting are visually verified. Why? Because our reputation is on the line.
You wonder why Bill Whitstine is not on these forums to chime in on scent detection ... I would imagine for the same reasons that Mike Potter and Rick Cooper are not on here to comment on what the "experts" are claiming about bed bugs; they are just too busy or have no interest in trolling forums. It is their personal choice to not donate time to sites like these.
If you are questioning Bill Whitstine's existence or his abilities I would suggest that you do some research. This is a man that has testified before a grand jury as an expert witness regarding canine scent detection. I assure you; he is qualified.
Sincerely,
Sean.
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Smart Canine
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Posted 2 months ago
Wed Aug 26 2009 22:30:05
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Sean, no need to try to divert attention by putting the illness on me, by saying that, I was attacking you personally. Readers of this site are very smart and are able to accuratly interrupt what the writter is really saying. The readers know that, I was not attacking you personally.
Actually, I have allways felt that you are a very knowledgeable about entomology and have given great advice in that area.
Let me commend you for being forthright with your position regarding bed bug k9 and handler certification . I found it encouraging that someone of your reputation found no argument with me on the issue of, no 3rd party envolvement in what is really, an evaluation process of K9 and handler, by a person that has a personal interest, in the process. I admit, I was hoping that you would have taken it to another level, pointing out that the issue is more a lack of a (unattached), independent, 3rd party certification process.
Non-the-less I will settle for your recongnition of a lack of 3rd party involvement in the evaluation of the bed bug K9 and handler process. It's a start.
I think we are in agreement that the word certification has a completly different meaning and conotation then the word, evaluation. It exagerates the facts to the comnsumer.
Bed bug dog sellers and bed bug dog handlers need to realize that nothing more than a personal evaluation of bed bug K9 and handler was made by the seller and trainer of the Dog; not a certification.
I also, agree with you the alleged NESDCA (certification) process is flawed too, lacking transparency. It is no more a certification (evaluation) then what Whitstine provides. NESDCA also, needs to stop misleading the consumer. -
thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 0:58:53
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Your username and comments lead us to believe that you either operate a K9 or have a stake in K9s in some way shape or form.
Since you do not think that NESDCA is an appropriate 3rd party certification, then who is? They are the only ones that I know of that certify bed bug handler/dog teams.
Who are you certified through?
You have not offered up any sort of solutions other than an organization (Auburn University Canine Research Institute) that does not certify bed bug canine teams.
Sean
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Sean
Smart Canine is an emotionally disturbed troll... He has been kicked off this site several times for posting misleading information and unprofessional conduct under a couple of different user names.
His last user name was "Joe the bedbuggedwife".... He is a wannabe dog trainer that has never trained a bed bug K9 detection team.
He won't discuss his qualifications because he needs to hide behind a fictitious character in a cowardly manner while he attempts to maintain the facade that he is some kind of expert.
He would like to accuse everyone else of having a conflict of interest while refusing to disclose his own conflict of interest.
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thebedbugresource
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Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 10:00:39
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Doug,
I certainly do not know that what you claim is true and for that reason give them the benefit of doubt.
If this is true however, then I suppose it explains a few things ...
I have repeatedly asked for him/her to provide an example of something I have said (other than that I was certified) regarding canines that he/she deems incorrect.
I have asked for him/her to disclose their credentials and they have refused.
He/she has repeatedly preached that bed bug canines and handlers must be certified by a third party and yet they openly state that the only organization currently doing this, NESDCA, is not qualified. The only agency they have quoted (Auburn) does not perform such certifications (I phoned them). Maybe he/she is in the process of creating their own agency?
Perhaps some answers to the above questions/requests would shed some light on Smart Canine.
If he/she is in fact who you claim them to be Doug, then Nobugs should get involved as this is a person that has been banned previously. Nobugs would be able to ban based on IP.
Sean.
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Smart Canine
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Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 15:14:53
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Doug, you don't give enough credit to the readsrs. Again, you have insulted their intelligence. If some one dosen't agree with you, or they expose your questionalble training and selling practices you chastise them. If they disagrees with you stronlgly you call them names like "disturbed troll" and request they be banned from the forum. Your attempt to divert the attention from yourself and your company, by calling them names, is not working. It actually puts you in a bad light. All we are asking is that the sellers, trainers and personal evaluators of bed bug dogs and their purchasers not label the evaluation process of dog and handler as "CERTIFIED".
For the record, I would debate you on any issue that relates to bed bug dog training. Here are a few subject matters that we can start with:
Fuctionality....selection of appropraiate breeds for bed bug detection.
Handler skills, methodology and techniques.
Bed Bug dog behavior and interpretation.
Causation of False and Positive alerts for bed bug detection dogs.
Food rewarded working bed bug detection dogs versus non-food rewarded bed bug detection dogs.
The use of off-lead bed bug detection dogs as opposed to using on-lead bed bug detection dogs.
We can start our own thread if you like.
On the other side of controversy, where is the published list of bed bug dogs sold and handlers that your company has trained that has been request from time-to-time by many posters on this forum? Why don't you make it available? It seems, it would certainly help the people that have purchased dogs from you. It seems you are hiding somethig.
Please let everyone know what conflict of interest, I am guilty of. We are all waiting patiently.
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Emotionally disturbed troll is a description of behavior... not a value judgment.
You left out "He won't discuss his qualifications because he needs to hide behind a fictitious character in a cowardly manner while he attempts to maintain the facade that he is some kind of expert" and "He is a wannabe dog trainer that has never trained a bed bug K9 detection team.".
For the record, I have never asked NoBugs to ban you at any point, but I did agree with her decision.
I think the readers are smart enough to compare entries from Joe the bedbuggedwife... Hatesbedbugs & other user names that you hide behind to see that all of the content is being generated by the same entity.
You gave yourself away when you misspelled words like involvement and legitimate.
You wish to claim that others are ethically challenged, but your tactics are inherently deceitful and therefore dishonest.
You have been asked politely to state your credentials by Sean. You were asked to declare whether you were a handler or trainer by NoBugs three days ago on another thread.
You seem to be painting NYC dog teams with a broad brushstroke: generalizing is easy but not very informative.
Of course, it's just as well you did not name the companies you thought were "a scam." Be warned: it's my understanding (though I'm not a lawyer) that doing so without being able to back up your claims with hard evidence can get you sued by those parties, even if you hide behind an anonymous handle.
If you yourself are associated with a bed bug k9, you should probably mention it (and which one) now.
I don't see any point in debating an anonymous coward ... I liked you better when you posted under your own name... at least that was honest
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Smart Canine
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 19:33:24
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Doug, stop the name calling. It is unbecomming of you and shows despiration. I find it absolutly miraculous that you now, know who I am, from two words spelled incorrectly.
Truth be known, you have no idea who I am. You made it clear to readers that you thought I was a member of NESDCA that, turned out to be incorrect.
What your showing the readers is decption and illusion to shift the illness on to those that have rasied some legitamte issues about the bed bug dog selllers and trainers industry. It just so happens that, you are a major part of the industry.
You have been asked by me ans other contributors to this forum to provide a published list of people that your company sold bed bug detection dogs to and trained. Why won't you do this? What is the big deal? What are you hiding? This a resonable request
If you provide that information and agree to debate me with a new thread, I will g;ladly agree to divulge my real name and my credentials. I will do this dispite the fact that plenty of other professionals that contributed information using nicknames were never asked by you to reveal their real names. I find that curious.
You owe it not only, to those clients that purchase your dogs and training but, to the consumers that purchase the bed bug detection dog service from your clients.
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paulaw0919
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Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 997
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 20:47:35
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Correction. Sean is who thought you are Nesdca. Doug thinks you are Gary Bromberg. (spelling?)
Maybe if Smart Canine is soo down on his opinions about how the K9 industry should be handled maybe he should stop wasting his time debating on a bed bug "support" forum, get rid of his dog and start a 3rd party Certification Company himself. He is obviously wasting his energy that could be put to better use.
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Truth be known, you have no idea who I am. You made it clear to readers that you thought I was a member of NESDCA that, turned out to be incorrect.
I don't need to be a linguist to spot your writing style... Your issues don't change... just the user names.
Reread the comments... I never suggested that you were a NESDCA member... Use the quote function
Our new trade association website will include a referral list when it is up and running.
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spideyjg
oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,405
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 21:36:30
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Same ranting, different name. Got to be Gary.
Jim
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Adele
senior member
Joined: May '08
Posts: 556
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 21:43:34
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You know I just have to state the obvious - 'cause hey - why else am I here?
Doesn't everyone have better things to do than argue with someone who obviously has such strong and seemingly disagreeable opinions?
Let him have his opinions - he is entitled to them however much you may disagree - and go on with it
There isn't any need to argue - plenty of people here will come forward and attest to how much a REALLY good and well trained K9 team has helped them regardless of who certifies this team
There is a definite value to a K9 dog - if trained properly - and let this guy, whoever he may be, have his opinions about the certification process.
Its not doing anyone any good to argue with him and it is just distracting everyone from the folks who come to this forum and really need help
that's my 2 cents
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Smart Canine
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 11
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Aug 29 2009 22:27:53
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Paula, I am very sympathetic with all of the suffering you endured with your bed bug Infestation.
Based on your post of August 22nd last week on this thread, I can only imagine what a nightmare it was not, to mention the financial burden. I appreciate as, I know others do, the
knowledge and information that you have and are able to share with the readers. I found tuly poignant, the discription of incompatent bed bug dogs and handlers, alerting positively to no presence of bed bugs. at yoiur home It seems that more and more consumers are experienceing the same with the bed bug detection dogs and handlers that they contract service with.
If a dog and handler say there are bed bugs then they should be required to determin were they are in the dwelling, and producing eveidence don't you think?
If a handler with a cadavor dog alerts to the presence of a dead body they better come up with a body. Case in point:
A civilian K9 handler in Michigan, Sandra Anderson, went to jail for making false staements about eveidence that she allegedly located, when she didn't.
Do consumers just continue to accept the malfeasance of bed bug dogs and handlers or, should people like us demand accoutability and regulations for the bed bug detection dog industry?
Do we just accept that every dog and handler are not always accurate and produce an acceptable amount of false positives or should the consumer be allowed to get their money back? Their are a lot of people out their spendig the last of their hard earned money relying on the bed bug dog for accurate information. -
btaggart
newbite
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 20
Posted 2 months ago
Tue Sep 1 2009 18:32:44
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hello,
sorry ive been gone for a while its been a crazy couple of months both personally as well as professionally, however while we are on the topic of certification, i just though everyone should know that alot of these concerns regarding teams being certified by an independent third party is being addressed by the National Pest Management Association, which has just recently partnered up with NESDCA to form A separate canine division of NPMA
Brian
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Brian,
You might want to contact Greg at NPMA to check your facts.
We were told that a committee is being created, but no formal actions have been approved.
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ohnoitsbedbugs
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 7
Posted 2 months ago
Fri Sep 18 2009 10:52:13
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I wanted to take a moment to update my story, as shared earlier in this thread. After sleeping for three weeks in my new apartment where the dog indicated there were bed bugs in 5 locations, checking carefully for bites (I have a pronounced reaction), setting up carpet tape traps around my mattress, searching crevices, outlets, etc., daily, and seeing literally zero evidence, I concluded that I had been the victim of a false positive. I've now moved all of my (vikaned) stuff in, and am living happily bed bug free.
I don't want to say anything disparaging about the dog that inspected my apartment or its handler, and I don't want to reignite the dog debate, but I do think it's fair to say that companies using these dogs without properly reinforcing their training are doing a real disservice to this community, and are adding to the already keen suffering of bed bug victims. Of course, it's our responsibility as consumers of this service to do the appropriate research and make sure we choose companies that are doing the right thing (and I think my responsibility of someone who didn't do that research and got burned as a result to let you guys know, in hopes that others will learn from my mistake and make better choices).
I wish I had my $300 back, but at this point, I'm just glad this nightmare is at long last over. Thanks to everyone on this forum for help and support during what was one of the suckiest episodes of my life!
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junior member
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 61
Posted 2 months ago
Fri Sep 18 2009 12:51:54
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ohnoitsbedbugs, if people would ask a prospective company" is a visual inspection of alerted areas performed" this would help eliminate a lot of confusion. If the team is alerted and a visual inspection confirms bed bugs you can feel better about investing your money in this technology.
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senior member
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 596
Posted 2 months ago
Fri Sep 18 2009 15:18:47
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I'm talking with the media now about what I know with regard to the dogs being wrong and why. The public will soon know the truth.
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depressedandconfused
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Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 32
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Sep 19 2009 2:58:56
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I too used M&M's dog Champ to inspect my apartment, and I'm starting to think it may have been a false positive too. Danny, the handler, was nice, but did not do any follow up inspection.
I got several bites every day for about a week or a week and a half. Since then (August), (and after my husband killed a few mosquitoes) I have not gotten any bites. I have searched everywhere and can not find any evidence of bed bugs. To be fair, I've had insomnia and have not been sleeping at night as much as I used to. My husband sleeps in the bed and doesn't seem to get bites (he doesn't react?). Everywhere the dog alerted, I found carpet beetle larvae. Since I've started inspecting everything closely, I've found tons of CB larvae and powder post beetles. I'm still having M&M come in to treat, since I finished a lot of the prep before I did all the research and because with all the insect life in my apartment, it certainly can't hurt to seal all the cracks and crevices and spray everything with pesticides. We occasionally see millipedes and silverfish too -- yuck!
On the other hand, bed bugs are supposedly very hard to find, and for all I know we do have them. Again, yet another reason to be aggressive and just treat for BBs.
On a positive note, my apartment is much cleaner, my attitude toward material goods has changed and soon there will be fewer insects in my life.
As for certification, honestly, third party or no third party, certification is still only as good as the person/dog with the certification. There are plenty of CPAs and lawyers who have passed the bar exam and doctors and all kinds of other certified professionals and there is a huge range in the quality of the "certified" individuals. The certification just can't tell you how good a professional/handler/person/dog is. It's just a minimum threshold of training/knowledge. Recommendations, references, referrals, etc. are the way to go.
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depressedandconfused
newbite
Joined: Aug '09
Posts: 32
Posted 2 months ago
Sat Sep 19 2009 3:05:15
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I too used M&M's dog Champ to inspect my apartment, and I'm starting to think it may have been a false positive too. Danny, the handler, was nice, but did not do any follow up inspection.
I got several bites every day for about a week or a week and a half. Since then (August), (and after my husband killed a few mosquitoes) I have not gotten any bites. I have searched everywhere and can not find any evidence of bed bugs. To be fair, I've had insomnia and have not been sleeping at night as much as I used to. My husband sleeps in the bed and doesn't seem to get bites (he doesn't react?). Everywhere the dog alerted, I found carpet beetle larvae. Since I've started inspecting everything closely, I've found tons of CB larvae and powder post beetles. I'm still having M&M come in to treat, since I finished a lot of the prep before I did all the research and because with all the insect life in my apartment, it certainly can't hurt to seal all the cracks and crevices and spray everything with pesticides. We occasionally see millipedes and silverfish too -- yuck!
On the other hand, bed bugs are supposedly very hard to find, and for all I know we do have them. Again, yet another reason to be aggressive and just treat for BBs.
On a positive note, my apartment is much cleaner, my attitude toward material goods has changed and soon there will be fewer insects in my life.
As for certification, honestly, third party or no third party, certification is still only as good as the person/dog with the certification. There are plenty of CPAs and lawyers who have passed the bar exam and doctors and all kinds of other certified professionals and there is a huge range in the quality of the "certified" individuals. The certification just can't tell you how good a professional/handler/person/dog is. It's just a minimum threshold of training/knowledge. Recommendations, references, referrals, etc. are the way to go.
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Bedbugs are very hard to find and even dogs will make mistakes. That being said just because you have not had any bites does not mean there are no bugs around.
I am currently training a bedbug dog. It is not brain surgery as many would lead you to believe. I have no, and plan to have no affiliations with any pest companies. Personally I have had bad dealings with pest companies and do not trust them. Being independent I will have no reason to "seek" a false positive or to encourage my dogs to find something that is not there. Plus "I" am the trainer and handler. How can you expect a exterminator who took a week long class to truly understand his dog. My dogs are my life and my passion. They live with my family, are trained and handled by me and only me. I have been handling and training dogs for 25 years. I have absolutely no interest in pest extermination.
I have trained search and rescue dogs and currently deal with behavior issues that many other "trainers" do not want to deal with. I also do goose away service. -
spideyjg
oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,405
Posted 2 months ago
Mon Sep 21 2009 13:25:01
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