Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Psychological and Health problems caused by bed bugs (besides bites)
If you are feeling suicidal or anxious...
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Sometimes people tell us they are feeling suicidal because of bed bugs.
If you are feeling suicidal now or in the future, please tell a professional and get help immediately, and please do not harm yourself.
Call your doctor (or therapist, if you have one).
Or go to an emergency room.
Please do not ignore it or try to deal with it on your own.You can also call a hotline. In the US, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK.
Anyone (worldwide) can email or phone the Samaritans. They have branches in various countries and are highly regarded and can help you by giving you a space to talk. They can also help direct you to local resources.
Suicide: Read this First may also help.
In addition to depression and suicidal feelings, a number of people have suffered from anxiety due to bed bugs.
In this case also, please seek a therapist's input. We have heard from a number of Bedbuggers that speaking to a professional can really help. If you are on a limited budget, your doctor should be able to help direct you to resources with no fee or a sliding scale.
We understand the stress and hardship this problem can cause, but if you have bed bugs, you can get through it and you will enjoy life again.
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Thank you so much Nobugs. You're really an incredible person and thank you for providing all these resources to help people. It's much appreciated.
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Thanks, bb_gave_me_ocd, I appreciate your kind words.
This is a subject that comes up from time to time and I wanted to get it into the "green stickies" so even if people do not see it, we can link to it from other threads easily.
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I can't stress how important it is to seek help if you find yourself in the throws of extreme anxiety. I would scream and cry everytime I went to bed - my image of someone waiting for me upstairs to hurt me was huge. I didn't want to go to sleep. So I basically ran away and stayed at friends houses all the time. I felt so unsafe here. Well the bugs are still here and so am I. There's also my expectation of a career change I'm hoping to attain. My daughter is doing an internship at a theatrical magazine and my husband and I are still married - coming up on 25 years. All this means is that yes, I hate this bb scenerio - the shakiness and anxiety has been horrific - my OCD has grown leaps and bounds - however I knew if I kept going this way I wouldn't be able to function anymore. I found a therapist who is helping me see just how overreactive I have become. How I obsess and am constantly checking every inch of my house - my Lord - I need to put this in a perspective that makes sense. I have a friend who just died from liver cancer and my heart bleeds from that pain. If you don't get help you're letting these creepy critters take your life over. Somehow when it comes down to it; they're still bugs. Yucky, disgusting and creepy bugs. Get help. It works.
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hello steadfast humans,
this is something i have feared for so very long (b/c of the widespread nyc truth regarding it, and the recent train and newspaper ads), and shuddered at the thought for ages, while watching many a fellow new yorker come to work bitten and exhausted. its incredible,the power of bugs. they are genius, insidious and strong. we are all those things, but full of emotion and so identified with our suffering that its nearly impossible to see this from a bigger scope. i first want to say how incredible it is that bugs could bring us so close and so raw and honest. that is the only lovely part about this process. i live in a row house. my grandmother paid for this home with her blood sweat and tears and in the last 5 years or so we have told her the neighborhood is getting kind of gross and that she should consider moving. not that moving eliminates these things in life per se, but she's 78 for chrissakes, and still acts like martha stewart.
in short--is there a short version to this? yes, i hope. last night was my first "official" night with the bugs. my grams has since left on a trip, which happened to be scheduled at the same time that we discovered the pests. i've been itchy and weirded out all day. i dont know what tonight will hold. i know my neighbor brought them around. she disposed of her mattress and it sat in the front of her house for a few days. but thats prob irrelevant since they've likely joined us thru crawling thru wall space of "this old house"; literally. there are so many cracks in this place, and i reside in the basement, which is rather gross in and of itself. so, of course, i've gotten hit first. luckily, for now its just me and the dog and the turtle. we dont have the money to use pest control. our cousin is having a nervous breakdown in puerto rico. my 30th b.day is in june, and on a selfish note, they money we'd use to contribute to that party will have to be used for pest elimination. in addition the Grandma's b/day is also in June. Sucks for us, but hey, we're still breathing, right? Besides i guess i wouldn't feel very "flirty 30" as they say with welt marks all over me. It all feels like one huge lesson in overcoming obstacles after another. I am in yoga teacher training and fear brining them to the studio. I would be heartbroken if i knew I contributed to any infestation, but I can not shun my commitment or the work i have to do to pay for the training. i don't exactly want to tell them either, b/c well--what if they never get infested and then i just look like a nasty person? thats all ego of course but work with me here. I guess i dont have to throw the 30th b.day plans down the drain but the notion of it all seems highly unlikely considering the financial obligations here. Also, I'm thinking i may a walking zombie. Whatever, we all are warriors, except who knew the enemy would be an insect?
Please add any thoughts, jokes (thats the only thing that gets me through) or recommendations for a family on a major budget and a very large space with lots of cracks. . .o god, the humanity!
i commend all of you for sharing your insight and strength in this very arduous phase of our evolution.
i gag at the thought of infesting other ppl and space though. its one thing for me to be the host. i'd take that. but the last thing i need is to affect the lives of my loved ones and my life path---!!!! ai. -
HI BronxBitten,
I am so sorry you and your family are going through this. You're in the right place and we do understand.
As for spreading them -- one yoga practitioner said she put her props and gear into a Packtite (more on those here).
I would suggest starting a new thread (click "add new" at the top of the forums) and posting your thread there. You will get more readers that way. This green sticky thread will get less attention, and we're kind of going off topic anyway. If you like, you can copy and paste this to a new thread, and let me know I should delete this one. Thanks!
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thank you so much. i will try a new thread.
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Thanks for this info. I hadn't realized just how stressed I was until last week. Just reading other folk's tales has helped. What drives me mad is that my little apt. is in utter disarray, the plastic bags, no couch ect....I feel like I should be better able to provide for my daughter. Thank goodness she's cool and understands.
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rothalion,
Take time for yourself and your daughter. Try to get comfortable even if you don't have your sofa anymore. Spend time doing things which are fun and which reduce stress. And don't be afraid to seek out help if you need it.
Bed bugs can be a real stressor, but this time won't go on forever -- it will get better!
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It is horrible. I am a bit tired of hearing about how it happens to dirty places and can't happen to me. I'm sick of landlords not taking it seriously and trying to treat it themselves; then when they do get a professional in, they only treat those with bugs. As if ignoring the unit next door makes any sense. I'm sick of not being able to share this with many people. I finally told my mother. If you travel to friends or relatives you freak out thinking they may infect them. Even though I get my second treatment in two days I feel that they will come back; that if I move they will follow. I'm exhausted, paranoid, living on a lawn chair surrounded by black trash bags (wondering if any of these things are IN the bags or ON the bags). I use to love my mattress.. my dream machine! Now it's like some torture chamber waiting for me to lay there and some alien creatures crawl out of their nests to feed upon me. It's a nightmare machine now. I think I hate the uncertainty more than anything. You read all these forums about people spending time and money and... they get them again.
Well skip the above crap... the key is... this sucks..really sucks. It ain't cancer and it's not a death sentence. It will wreak havoc on your sanity but it's NOT forever. So many people have lived with these pests, so many of our parents and grand parents lived and controlled these in the past. They made it under worse conditions.. and so will we. As I type this I feel all kinds of things tickling me, making me itch.. and of course there's nothing there. So yes it does affect us but as you can see... you are not alone in your suffering. We have them, they are here and spreading... many of our friends and relatives will get them one day... and we will be there to help them because we have been through it and learned from it. Spread the word.. stop the ignorance and let's help one another through this ....
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I thank the heavens for this forum. I'd read through this during the dark period of my life when I had a BB infestation in my home... two years later, and no bites in my house. I'm starting to actually consider taking my collectibles, favorite pillow, and stuffed animals back into my room. Going weeks without sleeping more than a couple hours a night, waking up at every itch... I really did consider suicide, and I had starting self-mutilating by cutting my bites in the hopes I could "bleed" it away. Thinking back on it, I feel a little ashamed about it but now I'm always cautious about my commute home from NYC (I believe I must have gotten the BBs from the train or bus home). Luckily a close friend of mine noticed my cuts and asked about it, and turns out she had BBs too and told me about this forum. I never posted, but I appreciate this site more than I can say.
Sadly, my fiance's house is infested with BBs and now I'm getting bitten over there. I feel terrible because I'm afraid to go back, and I'm afraid of having him over here. After leaving his house I shook out EVERYTHING I had brought with me and inspected everything (even using a lice comb to brush every single hair on my head) before going into the car. Right now I'm angry and shaking, because my fiance's family head refuses to do anything about the BBs... and went as far as to tell him to leave his home if he didn't like the BBs. This sickened me to no end, and I don't even know who I should be angry with. The bugs? His indifferent family? His family is getting bitten too, but none of them are allergic (as for me, my bites have swollen to the point where I can't move my elbow) so they don't care. My fiance is angry at them for not caring... well, at the very least I don't think I'll be inviting my in-laws to wherever I live... if they're infested and don't give a **** I certainly don't want them coming. I'm just thankful my fiance understands (been together since I was in junior high, and now I'm in my 20's and we're going to get married... he's seen all my allergic reactions to bites- mosquito, bed bug, bees, wasps, spiders, etc), but I can't help but feel like I can feel those bugs crawling all over me again. My bites feel like they're on fire, and my swollen arm is killing me. My paranoia has come back from when my house was infested... this whole feeling is sickening, but I can't help but want to slap my fiance's family head for threatening to kick him out for complaining.
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Hi eaten alive,
Glad the forums could be here for you. I encourage you to repost to a new thread, if you feel like it, as you might get more responses.
These "green sticky" posts are kind of isolated from the main discussion, and people don't tend to come "up here" as much. And besides, we don't want to go too far off topic.
I mean, I hope you don't become stressed or suicidal about bed bugs again. The cutting thing is really scary and I encourage anyone who is having strong feelings or harming themselves in any way to seek professional help right away.
I am glad you are taking precautions to keep from bringing bed bugs home. It's very hard when someone is in charge of the infested home and they do not see the need for treatment. Your fiance may need to educate the head of the family about the issue, since the problem is usually ignorance. They may seem "harmless" like some other household bugs if you don't react. But knowing they are easily transmitted, that reactions can begin after a time, and that the value of the property itself is in grave danger may sway their point of view.
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not feeling suicidal, but feeling very down and depressed and like i wouldn't mind so much if i happened to "check out". But i know i don't really feel that way bc i'm such a happy camper with two beautiful kids. i just feel like if i look at this like a mountain i have to climb, i can't handle it. I have to look at it by steps. no bugs on me, you have a story of success from way back? Is that why you've started this forum for the public?
Laurenbb_gave_me_ocd - 4 months ago »
Thank you so much Nobugs. You're really an incredible person and thank you for providing all these resources to help people. It's much appreciated. -
Bed Bug Epidemic - 4 hours ago »
not feeling suicidal, but feeling very down and depressed and like i wouldn't mind so much if i happened to "check out". But i know i don't really feel that way bc i'm such a happy camper with two beautiful kids. i just feel like if i look at this like a mountain i have to climb, i can't handle it. I have to look at it by steps. no bugs on me, you have a story of success from way back? Is that why you've started this forum for the public?Hi Lauren,
I am glad you do not feel suicidal, but even if you are just depressed and/or anxious, please seek help. Bed bugs can exacerbate any depression or anxiety you may be prone to, but this can be treated either with talk therapy or medicines or both.
A number of folks here here have gotten help with anxiety or depression from therapists, psychiatrists or even regular MDs.
I am responding to the question about the origins of the site on another thread, so it won't take us too far off-topic. Please follow that question here.
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I just want to tell you all that my bed bugs have been gone for 4 months. I found them before Christmas, did pay a lot of money to have three treatments, washed all my clothes, gave over half of the washed sanitized ones away, cleaned up my house (I was a clutterer), and now I am bug free. You think it will never happen, but it will. The friend I got the bugs from, who stayed in my house taking care of my dogs for one week, moved to a new apartment herself. She singlehandedly washed everything she owned, put the clothes into bug free plastic, sprayed everything she owned, and got rid of the bugs. She has been in her new apartment for 6 months, bug free. IT WILL BE OVER. The rest of my life I will always have white sheets, and I, now and then, look.
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Congratulations! May you be bb-free forever!
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I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear that, for both you and myself! lol
Congratulations!!!!! [b]Thanks so much for sharing, too, with all of us as I'm sure you know how at one point, you feel hopeless.
I don't know where we 'd all be mentall without someone coming back to tell us about their success.
Much Luck to you
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Just saw this now, NoBugs: I seem to miss a lot of msgs on here. :p
Thanks so much, I did have trouble with anxiety in the past so I was def more sensitive to this, however, it probably is depressing to everyone. I am currently speaking with a professional, and for all of you out there that don't think you need it or are too embarrassed to go, please hear me out when I say it has done wonders, even if it's just to get through those couple of days where you feel hopeless about this situation. If you feel the person you speak to doesn't fit your personality, find another. I did.
"This too shall pass" Good luck all.
Nobugsonme - 1 week ago »
Bed Bug Epidemic - 4 hours ago »
not feeling suicidal, but feeling very down and depressed and like i wouldn't mind so much if i happened to "check out". But i know i don't really feel that way bc i'm such a happy camper with two beautiful kids. i just feel like if i look at this like a mountain i have to climb, i can't handle it. I have to look at it by steps. no bugs on me, you have a story of success from way back? Is that why you've started this forum for the public?Hi Lauren,
I am glad you do not feel suicidal, but even if you are just depressed and/or anxious, please seek help. Bed bugs can exacerbate any depression or anxiety you may be prone to, but this can be treated either with talk therapy or medicines or both.
A number of folks here here have gotten help with anxiety or depression from therapists, psychiatrists or even regular MDs.
I am responding to the question about the origins of the site on another thread, so it won't take us too far off-topic. Please follow that question here. -
My first post, anywhere, so apologies if this reply is misplaced, too long or poorly formatted.
Thanks for this forum space. Two years ago I lost my apartment in NYC and spent a year, well, not really having a place to live. The only upside was that, by virtue of storing my books and furniture while I saved for a new rental, the bedbugs that infested them died. Now, just over a year later in my new place, they're back.I have over a thousand books and lots of art supplies, both of which make super bug housing. The thought of dealing with this again, after the awful nightmares I've been through has had me feeling psychotic since I finally caught a live one on Wednesday. The landlord's secretary said that she's gotten tons of calls already - but won't send an exterminator to my place for a week and a half! - and that's just to confirm I have them. I can't afford to take another day off work. I then called the PCO myself and after about twenty seconds of uh, um, uh, the guy said that he couldn't come earlier than next Friday "for reasons I am not at liberty to say." Seriously.
My building is the most poorly maintained place I've seen short of the Voice's "10 Worst" list - and I've been homeless and am pretty poor, so I speak from some experience. The landlords and their contracted PCO do not make me confident about treatment. I assume they came from neighbors, though in NYC anything is possible.
What's with this? I'm a fairly recent recovering alcoholic/addict (I started drinking heavily in order to fall asleep after I first got bedbugs in '07, though I had plenty of other reasons), I got a regular job to pay for much-needed therapy and much-needed root canals (four this year), I left my abusive boyfriend and his crazy friends, and moved as far as is humanly possible in NYC within commute and transport logic - all in order to get my life together and start making art again. I'm also worried about my cat, though she seems purry enough.
The thought of maybe having to trade one sanity (physical health, sleep, human relationships affected by bugs) for another (making art with paper) is incredibly frustrating, and I can't afford to move again, or put things in storage for another year. I'm not sure what to do and have been too anxious for the last few days to prioritize. I don't know anybody here anymore, and it's hard enough making the rent and still have cash for food. I am grateful to have found this site though, and all its thoughtful resources. Thanks, I just needed to share.
Oda
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Hi Oda,
I would encourage you to repost this on a new thread, where you will likely get more responses. This (and other threads in the "green stickies" at the top of the forums) do not get as much attention. People's eyes are on the main threads.
Click here to start a new thread and feel free to paste what you wrote here in there. (If you do, I may delete your post above.)
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Nobugsonme, I want to take this opportunity to express my gratitude.
Thank you very much for sharing these helpful information and giving us a space to discuss our common problems.I suffered from bedbugs in 2009 and it took 4 months to fight the battle. There were many sleepless nights and frustrating moments. I was tired for work, and angry about my situation. I could imaging some females might get depressed by dealing with bedbugs.
I suggest you setup a page or thread for the people who successfully killed bedbugs to recommend their PMP. So others could use the help from professionals as quick as possible.
Sincerely,
Dillon
From BOSTON
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Hey so, what do people do who are anxious and/or depressed (about BBs or other reasons in general), but are also too anxious to go to any kind of therapy because afraid of picking up BBs there? (I mean, I think about all the soft chairs/couches it seems like would be in a place like that, and all the people who pass through there.) I wouldn't be able to relax and actually try to work on things when I'm thinking the whole time of how likely it is that I'm getting BBs at that exact moment. I know that this is stupid, and I really, really hate myself for keeping on posting here and sounding like such a child. But I was thinking that maybe someone else here has been through/overcome this same situation and could give me advice.
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@dillon,
Thanks for your post. I am glad you had success and that the site was helpful to you.
You can definitely write a post reviewing your PMP. Simply start a new thread, and tag the post with the name of the company. (If you don't know how to tag, I can add it later.)
There are many of these, and most are tagged with the name of the company and the location (NYC PCOs, Boston PCOs, London PCOs, etc.).
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@buggedout16,
I understand where you are coming from.
I think many of us who have had bed bugs go through a period where we're acutely terrified of getting them again, everywhere we go. And then there may be a phase where we're a bit paranoid. And then maybe we become cautious. And the caution will probably go on forever, but it's not as extreme as those other phases. (This is my experience and others may experience all this quite differently.)
I am still cautious but I know I can't avoid every workplace, meeting room, restaurant, theater, doctor's office, hotel, plane, and so on forever. At some point, you have to realize that there's a risk (if you're in an attached home or apartment, that risk exists even if you don't leave home), but that you need to go on with life, and go the places you need to go, despite the risk.
The stress of all this is not easy and therapy may actually help -- even if you're afraid to even go to the therapist's office. Time helps too. However, if you need treatment for anxiety or depression (or any other problem), I would encourage you to get it.
If you are worried you may have been exposed, you can remove clothing at your door and bag it for cleaning. If you are worried and have a Packtite, you can even treat purses, bags, shoes, afterwards.
I have heard of people getting therapy by phone under certain circumstances, and this may be an option for you, though I suspect most therapists would probably want to work through the fear of you going to their office.
I don't think this is your situation, buggedout16, but if anyone reading this is feeling suicidal, please seek help immediately (many suggestions for how to do this in the post above).
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Nobugsonme,
Thank you for this website, you and everyone else on here has helped me greatly. I have been suffering from severe anxiety and depression since these bites started in May. Today, three months later I finally got up the nerve to call a professional. I have an appt. on Friday and am hopeful for the first time in many weeks!
My mom said to me, "Michelle, you are treating the house, now you have to treat yourself"I just thought these words might make sense to someone else battling depression and anxiety in this awful war.
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Thanks for sharing that, Sleepless in PA. Your mom sounds wise. It's hard to remember to take care of yourself and keep yourself in balance when you're battling these external forces, but it is absolutely important.
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Ironically, I'm a scientist that received my doctoral training in insect immunology. I am really interested in how insects can serve as vectors of disease and how we might be able to use the insect immune response to help fight disease. My point in mentioning all of this is because when it comes to bed bugs, I already knew the seriousness of the issue and the details of the life cycle. Many times I'm a rational thinker, but this thing has me at my wits end. I don't really know why I'm posting. I guess it's because I want to hear something positive from people who can relate to this situation.
Three years ago I moved to North Carolina and discovered that I have fibromyalgia. In California, the weather is constant and I didn't present with the symptoms. Associated with this disease are anxiety and insomnia, both of which have affected me greatly in the past three years. I didn't even know what anxiety was, and while I had some problems with sleep, it was nothing like this. I went over a year getting less than 1 hour of sleep a night.
I was just starting to make a little progress when after a long drawn out process, my boyfriend moved back in with me. He had all these bites, but we thought they were mosquito bites. I suggested bed bugs, and asked him to look for fecal matter, debris, etc. He didn't find any. I wanted to stress how bad a bed bug infection can be, but he convinced me that I was overreacting and being paranoid.
He was wrong.
It's been less than two weeks, and I have been bitten over100 times. I am severely allergic to most insects, and this is no exception. I've had to use my eppi pen and get steroid injections (an immunosuppressant with many, many side effects.) To give you any idea, even on steroids, my whole arm will swell up and it's not only itching, but burning and tingling. I know that this is a serious and dangerous reaction, but I can't keep using my eppi pen or staying on steroids.
The bed bugs came with my boyfriends furniture and laundry and are now occupying the second floor of my apartment. I had a dog come over and it only alerted to the two rooms upstairs. The guy was very impressed that I suspected bed bugs and called so quickly. He told me that he was confident that I could probably get rid of the infestation in one or two treatments. I had the exterminator come out to give an estimate, and he said the same thing. He told me that in reality, with my scientific and biological knowledge of containment, I was doing all the right things (killing the bed bugs with heat, securing in plastic bags, and leaving them downstairs). I've been sleeping on the couch the last two nights because the dog did not alert to any of the first floor.
The strange thing about my bite reactions is that they occur 24-48 hours later. I'll see a small red spot (or string of spots), 12 hours later it will be itchy, and 24 hours later it'll swell to 3-4 inches in diameter. 48 hours later it's a bit smaller but still very inflamed. I have some blood vessels bursting in the area because of the edema.
I mention all of this because I can't figure out when or where the bed bugs are biting me. I've been trying to stay positive, power through all this cleaning, and wait until Monday when the exterminator comes. But today I got a string of bed bug bites along my back and a few between my toes. I'm panicking because I think we may have gotten a few bed bugs downstairs, and it's going to take just that much longer to get the downstairs cleaned out so that they can come exterminate.
If anyone out there has severe reactions like me and has managed to get through this, I'd be really comforted to hear your input. I know that the anxiety and depression that I'm feeling is out of proportion to the problem, but it doesn't stop me from feeling any more terrified or trapped. If I could just move to a new apartment, I would, but I *know* that won't solve the problem.
Thanks for reading a long vent. I hope that at some point I can post a success story too. Right now it all feels insurmountable though.
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Hi anaphylactic entomologist,
I am so sorry you are going through that.
We have heard over the years from a few people who ended up in an ER with anaphylactic shock.
I don't recall anyone currently on the boards mentioning such severe reactions.
He told me that in reality, with my scientific and biological knowledge of containment, I was doing all the right things (killing the bed bugs with heat, securing in plastic bags, and leaving them downstairs). I've been sleeping on the couch the last two nights because the dog did not alert to any of the first floor.
Usually, we advise people not to sleep in another location because bed bugs will follow you there.
In your case, I am not sure what to say, frankly. Ideally, you could isolate a bed bug-free bed in order to avoid bites in bed, but they may be biting you when you sit in chairs.
The strange thing about my bite reactions is that they occur 24-48 hours later. I'll see a small red spot (or string of spots), 12 hours later it will be itchy, and 24 hours later it'll swell to 3-4 inches in diameter. 48 hours later it's a bit smaller but still very inflamed. I have some blood vessels bursting in the area because of the edema.
I don't think the delay is unusual (most people do not know how long their bite reactions take to appear and develop), though swellings of 3-4 inches and edema are.
If there's anywhere you can go for a safe night's sleep until treatment begins, there are recommendations in the Travel FAQs on how to avoid taking bed bugs with you.
I wish I had more advice, but I am glad you're getting help, and glad you have the eppi pen (and I hope you won't hesitate to go to the ER if needed).
This "green sticky" thread is isolated from the rest of the forum posts because it deals with urgent information (how to get help if you're suicidal or anxious due to bed bugs), and people may not notice it right away. You may get more readers and support if you post in a new thread.
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Thanks nobugsonme. My boyfriend is still sleeping on the bed, so I'm hoping that's enough enticement to stay on the bed. My mattress and boxspring are encased (and bright white), so I would see signs of a "normal" infestation. Sadly, I can tell the damn things really do come after me. Despite vacuuming the surfaces, underneath, in between, and all along the headboard every night, I wake up early in the morning and found a few bed bugs *only* on my side of the bed. Bed bugs, like most biting insects, are attracted by 4 things: CO2, temperature (I run particularly hot, especially when I sleep), the taste of your skin (odorant receptors on your skin), and the taste of your blood (as you develop a a protective immune response, the specific antibodes present in the blood do not fire the odorant receptors as much). Long story short, I'm the perfect bug buffet and I'm better than deet and attracting bugs away from other people. At the point where the bed bugs still have a host in the upstairs portion of the house, I'm not really sure why they're coming after me still.
48 hours since I confined myself in the noninfested portion of the house and I've accumulated at least 10 bites. This sucks.
Thanks for pointing out the fact that this is a sticky. I might post it in another thread if I'm still feeling hopeless.
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analphylactic entomologist has continued this conversation here.
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Please see the newer thread, which replaces this one, in the green stickies at the top of the forums.
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