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Great Bed Bud Debate: Fumigation Gas vs. Thermal Heat Treatment
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twistcaff
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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Mar 3 2010 20:40:22
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This stems from a thread I started inquiring about the use of fumigation to treat bed bugs. I was very surprised at how overwhelming everyone came out in favor of fumigation over heat, especially when heat seemed to be the be-all-end-all.
Thus begins our debate. Please state your opinions on which treatment method you feel overall works best.
I say "overall" including treatment on a large scale (entire house, single room, apartment, etc...) but also working on a smaller scale (small moving truck, storage facility, moving van, etc...).
Let us begin...
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spideyjg
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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Mar 3 2010 22:31:42
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/spideyjg/smilies/DeadHorse.gif
Both done proper are 100% killers. We have seen failures with both, we have seen property damage with thermal, and some places one, both, or neither is available.
People need to make their own decisions. If you have musical instruments thermal is out. The heat will soften the glues and can destroy your instrument. Electric guitars often have their pickups "wax potted". Thermal will undo that potting and if they don't flat out die, they will go microphonic.
Jim
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twistcaff
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Posted 3 years ago
Thu Mar 4 2010 11:41:07
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spideyjg - 13 hours ago »
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/spideyjg/smilies/DeadHorse.gif
Both done proper are 100% killers. We have seen failures with both, we have seen property damage with thermal, and some places one, both, or neither is available.
People need to make their own decisions. If you have musical instruments thermal is out. The heat will soften the glues and can destroy your instrument. Electric guitars often have their pickups "wax potted". Thermal will undo that potting and if they don't flat out die, they will go microphonic.
JimRight, but with all do respect, I would very much like to hear personal experiences from the folks here that have first hand seen the results of both methods.
Thus my continuing of the debate...
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buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 years ago
Thu Mar 4 2010 13:45:00
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With all due respect, given that done properly thermal and Vikane are both one shot treatments --and given that they are both labor intensive and therefore often much more costly treatments than most chemical treatments, I seriously doubt that you're going to find any one bed bugger here who has had both treatments. And you're almost certainly not going to find a single bed bug sufferer who has had both structural and container treatments with both.
In addition, pest management professionals these days, in the words of my thermal provider, tend to specialize "just like doctors." Very few individual pest management pros use both thermal and Vikane as the person who uses thermal tends to specialize in that.
If you're detecting a slight tone of annoyance from some responses around here, well, I can't speak for anyone else. I can only speak for me.
I've watched the threads you've been posting to, and people have provided you with fairly detailed answers. I'm guessing based on the fact that you're continuing to ask more questions, that the answers haven't given you what you want, exactly. But I'm also kind of convinced at this point that you're not going to get exactly what you want from posting to the fora.
I know I've responded to people before with detailed comparisons of thermal versus Vikane. Have you tried searching for those posts? If you type descriptive words like thermal and Vikane into the search box, perhaps those older threads will come up that way. Given that my detailed answers so far have been dismissed, I'm not especially inclined to redo that work, so looking for the older responses may help satisfy your curiosity.
Frankly, I have to tell you that your posts make me feel like you don't believe what I'm saying since many of the posts continue to sound to me like they're asking the same questions over and over again. I can't tell if that's because your phrasing isn't quite asking us what you think it's asking, so we're not answering the question you perceive that you're asking, or if it's because you want someone to 100% explain a trademarked chemical process that, since none of us are to my knowledge chemists at Dow by trade, we'd be able to do.
Whatever the case, unfortunately, I'm left to suspect that no matter what any of us write, it's not going to satisfy whatever you're looking for here. The fact that we might not be able to help you makes me sad because I stick around precisely because I don't want other people to suffer from bed bugs any more than necessary. However, I have two jobs and limited time, and I suspect that, like me, regardless of your intentions, people are reacting to what they, like me, perceive to be a dismissive and entitled tone in your posts and are less likely to spend a lot of time repeating answers that they feel like they've already given; I know that's how I feel. I don't know you so I don't know if that's done consciously or accidentally, but in some ways, it doesn't matter if that's what people are reading in your posts.
The short version of my previous post is this:
Vikane can be used on multi-unit structures, but only if everyone in each unit leaves the structure for days on end. Landlords are often less willing to use it because they are in many municipalities responsible for paying the hotel costs of tenants during that time. Heat can be used on individual units within a multi-unit structure.
I have never heard of damage caused by Vikane. Heat treatment, when done properly, can damage items and structures. (Look for my posts about heat and you'll see the specifics of damage in my place.)
Heat cannot be used to treat certain temperature sensitive items like DVDs, VHS tapes, some art, musical instruments, and some electronic devices. Vikane can be used for all of those.
Vikane cannot be used when temperatures drop below a certain threshold. Out here in southern California, temperatures rarely get that low along the coast (elevation is another issue). Back east, those temps are reached more often and shorten the season that Vikane can be used.
Vikane isn't available in Canada; thermal is.
Neither Vikane nor thermal has any residual properties; however, since both kill 100% of eggs when used properly, there isn't the need for residuals that comes with chemical treatment AS LONG AS ALL INFESTED AREAS/UNITS are treated.
Both thermal and Vikane are reliant on the skill of the PMP who perform the services. If a PMP doesn't monitor temps correctly or raises the temp at the wrong speed, thermal can fail even without causing damage. If a PMP doesn't tent correctly or doesn't use the correct concentration of Vikane, treatment can fail.
They are also reliant on bed bug sufferer prep. If the person doesn't find a way to de-infest items that can't be in the home during treatment, bugs/eggs from those items can be reintroduced into the home and cause a reinfestation that way with heat. If the person bags things in plastic during Vikane, bugs inside those items can reinfest the home after treatment.
Nothing about bed bugs will ever give you a 100% guarantee because there are too many variables. At a certain point, you have to take a leap of faith and hope the treatment works. Given the uncertainties around bed bugs, that can be one of the most terrifying leaps of faith in the world, just as after treatment, it's pretty common to be anxious about the very many places bed bugs could be hiding outside your home.
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twistcaff
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Posted 3 years ago
Thu Mar 4 2010 22:32:32
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First of all, I don't feel intitled and I'm not dismissive. If you take it that way, I'm sorry, but that's your problem. I'm not responsible for how you take my tone.
Second, this has been the most horrible experience of my life and I don't intended to repeat it. What you take as dismissive is sheer desperation for answers on my families part. I'm trying to protect them.
Next time just post the links and save the lecture. I don't respect folks who give give valuable information but then give backhanded remarks in the same breath.
Thanks to everyone who helped out with useful info. Looks like this thread will not be as helpful to others as I had hoped. Feel free to close it.
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your host
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 4:21:48
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twistcaff,
There are reasons one or the other method won't work for some people, as spideyjg and buggyinsocal have outlined.
That seems like useful information.
Some people might also prefer thermal as it may be more environmentally friendly than Vikane.
Beyond that, I'd be suspicious of anyone here who flat out dismissed thermal or Vikane (sulfuryl fluoride) gas fumigation. Having read most of the posts on the forums, I just don't see any obvious cut-and-dried answer to which is best. It's about which is best for your circumstances, AND which is available (as buggyinsocal points out).
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Adele
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 5:57:29
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Twistcaff
Both Jim (SpideyJG) and Buggyinsocal have been on the forums for a long time and are veteran bedbug fighters. They are extremely knowledgeable and graciously gave you accurate information. I don't beleive that either were trying to be dismissive or were lecturing you
With regards to your question, I am probably one of the few here who had both vikane and thermal done. In my case, the vikane failed and the thermal worked. But as all of the posters noted above both methods can be 100% effective if done properly. In my case I beleive the vikane failure was that the truck was packed too tightly and the fumigant could not circulate. The truck was not tarped so it's also possible that the fumigant leaked out as well. I don't know for sure what happened
In any case - it really depends on what your individual circumstances are as to which method you choose. As stated above many times - both methods work if done properly
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twistcaff
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 9:49:09
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Adele - 3 hours ago »
In my case I beleive the vikane failure was that the truck was packed too tightly and the fumigant could not circulate. The truck was not tarped so it's also possible that the fumigant leaked out as well. I don't know for sure what happenedNow this is actually getting to the root of my concerns. Can you expand on this a bit more. When you say it was packed to tight, exactly what do you mean by this? Were things still sealed up? If the gas penetrates all surfaces, I would imagine that "tightness" wouldn't play a factor would it? I'm curious to your experience as to not repeat it.
Also, when you say it failed, what was your tip off? Did you find live bed bugs in your things you fumigated? Also, why was the procedure not tarped?
Thanks!
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buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 11:48:58
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I should also just point out that for every person who has had a failed Vikane treatment, you will likely also find one that has had a failed thermal treatment. My sense in the case of every failed thermal or Vikane treatment that I read about is that it was all about the PMP's skill/time/expertise/attention to detail rather than the decision to go with thermal as opposed to Vikane or visa versa.
Searching the fora for all threads on each topic will probably give you a much more representative sample of how many people have had failures of each than will asking whoever happens to be on the boards these days to comment in response to this post. I would think that a more representative sample would give you a more accurate way of assessing the merits of each method.
(Hopefully that's not too lecturey for you.)
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twistcaff
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 12:07:12
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buggyinsocal - 8 minutes ago »
I should also just point out that for every person who has had a failed Vikane treatment, you will likely also find one that has had a failed thermal treatment. My sense in the case of every failed thermal or Vikane treatment that I read about is that it was all about the PMP's skill/time/expertise/attention to detail rather than the decision to go with thermal as opposed to Vikane or visa versa.
Searching the fora for all threads on each topic will probably give you a much more representative sample of how many people have had failures of each than will asking whoever happens to be on the boards these days to comment in response to this post. I would think that a more representative sample would give you a more accurate way of assessing the merits of each method.
(Hopefully that's not too lecturey for you.)Listen, contrary to what you may think, I do appreciate every bit of information your willing to provide in this and other threads.
My point is you keep telling me to do searches in other topics when I have someone with a personal experience right here, willing to tell me what he thinks went wrong. Thus, with this type of information, don't you think I should hear him out first as to not potentially repeat his mistakes when I have my treatment done?
That's all I'm saying.
Hope you consider that in you next lecture (<<<<<<that was a joke :))
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buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 12:40:02
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By all means, I do think you should hear her out. She's one of the rare folks who has had experience with both methods with container fumigation.
However, she's one person. In the social sciences, researchers call basing claims on too small a sample set a problem (specifically a sample selection bias). In the humanities, people call it a hasty generalization.
I do think that getting to interact with someone who is still around is an invaluable way of gathering information--that would be why nearly two years after my infestation was treated effectively, I'm still on the boards volunteering my time.
But I also think (and this isn't anything against Adele; she's a valuable resource and a regular contributor to the boards who gives good info regularly) that if you're concerned with making sure that you know everything you need to know about making a well informed choice, you can't base your conclusions on too small a sample size--whether we're talking about my opinion or Adele's or spideyjg's or Nobugsonme's or one PMP's versus another's. I define a well-researched opinion as one based on all the evidence.
Yes, it takes more time to search through all the posts in the forum, but in doing so you'll be hearing from a broad range of opinions and getting the most representative sample. The most representative sample will give you the best chance of puzzling out which treatment method will work best for you.
Remember, it's rare for a bed bug sufferer who has solved his or her problem to stick around long after the problem is gone, so if it just happens that the sample set currently on the boards happened to be people who had bad PMPs treat them with thermal, you might get an impression of thermal that isn't true because of who happens to be on the boards at the time.
I'm a big fan of the way that the Internet brings the information to us that we want. I'm a strong proponent of collective intelligence (the idea that internet communication proves that we know more as groups than we do as individuals.) I'm not knocking the internet in what I'm about to say.
At the same time, however, all these awesome technologies can set up unrealistic expectations; we sometimes assume that anything worth saying will automatically come up if we ask for people to tell us about it or in the first page of search engine hits. Often, thorough research doesn't work that way no matter how much we want research to be that easy.
I'm a big fan of both thermal and Vikane; I've frequently argued that if you add up all the costs of treatment, you will often find that they don't cost substantially more than chemical, and for people who can't stand being used as bait, that extra cost if often worth it. If you want to talk bias, I'm probably more biased toward those methods than many people on the boards here. But when I talk about them, I try to be as objective as possible. Even so, I want people to consider as many different opinions as possible.
However, that cost is not insubstantial, and I don't want to see anyone invest in either thermal or Vikane and be unhappy with the results. In order to do that, it seems to me prudent to do as much research as possible.
If I suggest looking at all threads on the subject it's not because I'm suggesting that you ignore the live people who are currently responding to your questions--that information is not only useful, it's important. But it shouldn't be the only data in the data set of someone who is considering spending as much money as bed bug treatment costs. I keep pushing a thorough search of all threads on the subject because it seems to me that also getting the experiences of people who also had personal experience but who may no longer be on the boards will help give you the most comprehensive understanding of all the pros and cons on the issue.
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Adele
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Posted 3 years ago
Fri Mar 5 2010 13:14:02
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Twistcaff - I don't really know for sure why the vikane failed. I can only speculate on a number of points and I don't know that they are in fact the reasons so there is no point to list them out.
With regards to why the truck was not tarped - well you would have to ask Bed Bugs and Beyond as that is the way they do their vikane treatments
With regards to Buggyinsocal's comments - she is correct in that you should not base your decision on one sample input as there have been several people who came on here and said that their thermal failed and as far as I know I am the only one who can state that their vikane failed. I knew it failed becaause I found live bugs immediately afterwards so there was no mistaking it
best thing to do is to read through the information here and call up the providers and form your own opinion
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