Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Uncategorized
Finally something works!!
(418 posts)-
BedBugBatty
I don't have a major problem with using the product off label for bed bugs .... In some states that practice is legal, if the product is applied in locations that are specified on the label ..... Bifenthrin that is sold for professional use lists bed bugs on the label .... It is not typically used as the primary product for a bed bug job .... I have used it in my home for flea control... I have a quart of the professional strength product in my shed, but it would not be my first choice for bed bug control.... If you get good results, then God bless you ... I am happy for you
Dragon Flight
My issue is with the faulty logic & false conclusions that are being presented as facts .... Claims that the spray is harmless, for example, are insanely false ..... Claims that the product eliminates bed bugs when the person making the claim still has an active infestation in his home are disingenuous at best ....
The American version is a completely different formulation than the Canadian Ortho HD Max .... We are not even talking about the same product.... The only thing that is similar between these two products is the name .... Claims that that home products work better than professional products based on ridiculous hearsay evidence ....
Then Dragon Flight's reply completely proves my point..... (paraphrased) We don't need no stinking scientific principles .... We are just using poison to kill bed bugs in homes occupied by people & pets ..... Why would we bother to read something or consult someone that has some education on the subject .... Don't bother me with the facts .... It is all part of a world wide conspiracy to overcharge me for pest control....
Nobugs is right .... You don't read .... You don't get it
Re-read my comment & please quote me where I said that you should give any money to MR PCO ....
I train dogs ..... I am a public advocate that attended the EPA Bed Bug Summit Conference & participated in formulating policies that called for more effective products & applied research .... I heard dozens of PCOs & Scientists speak .... They asked the EPA to bring back chemicals that have been taken off the market .... Stronger more effective materials were requested .....
I train close to a hundred PCOs a year to perform inspections for bed bugs .... I have yet to hear one PCO talk about removing effective products because it will help business.... To the contrary, all of the PCOs I have dealt with are frustrated about pesticide resistance .... not excited.... They complain about landlords performing spot treatments .... Most would prefer to eliminate the bed bugs in a single visit .... They hate all the callbacks that they receive on their bed bug jobs ....
Believe it or not, bed bug revenue is chump change to the pesticide industry ..... The pesticide industry caters to the needs of agriculture .... If bed bugs started eating crops we might see swift action..... The pesticide industry considers bed bugs to be a small niche in the industry.... It is completely dwarfed by comparison to the revenue from corn, soybeans, cotton or other crops.... Bed bug treatment may seem profitable to you, but it is very labor intensive .... Many PCOs actually prefer to make money on pests that are easier to control
They have an annual event called the Darwinian Awards for folks just like you.
-
BedBugBatty
newbite
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 6
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 8 2009 13:58:43
#
Login to Send PM
Doug,
After re-reading what you wrote, and researching more about Bifenthrin, I agree that it's important to focus on the scientific evidence at hand. That having been said, I will say that so far, it has been the most effective tool in my arsenal of do-it-yourself attempts to rid myself of the infestation. I don't think dragonflight advocates something as dumb as intentionally spraying people or food with Bifenthrin. The major problem boils down to the fact that biochemical toxicity is not exactly a field many people can claim to be experts in--which is why we have to rely on hard facts for appropriate usage. It can be very difficult for ordinary humans to assess how toxic something is if it doesn't immediately kill us or causes our skin to turn green.
My gut feeling, especially with Jason, is that he's really excited to rid himself of the problem, which has led to his passionate, constant re-spraying to rid himself of the problem. I think, in general, most members of this forum are looking out for each other, and the reason we're concerned about potential overspraying is mostly due to the user potentially harming him/herself. Yes, egos will sometimes clash, but that mostly happens because in general, although bedbugs are bad, they don't kill people, whereas pesticides in general have the looming danger of cancer or other adverse side effects that may linger long after the bugs are gone.
I think we should get some more information about the active ingredient in Ortho, and figure out the difference between the Canadian/US versions. I'm personally wondering if different strains of bedbugs can have very different degrees of resistance to different types of pytherins?
-
BedBugBatty - 16 minutes ago »
I think we should get some more information about the active ingredient in Ortho, and figure out the difference between the Canadian/US versions. I'm personally wondering if different strains of bedbugs can have very different degrees of resistance to different types of pytherins?Yes, they certainly do.
Doug is correct about the kinds of assumptions people are making in regards to the experiences described by jason1 and others.
I just edited a post above by rjames, to warn readers not to do what s/he did. rjames said:
Oh, a side note on the Ortho and mattress - we have a old concrete slab out back that used to be a garage. Just for the heck of it, I put his old mattress on it and sprayed it all over with the Ortho, then covered with a tarp (so the rain wouldn't wash away the chemical). The next day it looked like a BB massacre. There was a pile of hundreds of them, all dead. It was GLORIOUS!!And I added:
NOTE from Admin: under no circumstances should anyone apply anything to a mattress outside of labelling instructions. This can be very hazardous to your health. I think rjames is saying s/he did this with a mattress no longer intended for use, but I am not certain, and it is important that people do not do this on a mattress and then use it.
When people post claiming success, others will copy what they did. The problem here is that some things being done are unsafe.
Even rjames, who I seriously hope does not intend to use the mattress described, may lead others to spray Ortho Home Defense on a mattress and sleep on it. Because it sure seemed like a good idea after reading what rjames wrote.
You have to consider what you suggest on these forums -- others will copy you. They may harm themselves or make problems worse. (Other actions suggested by jason1 may lead to repellency.)
People who are new here are taking actions, ignoring the suggestions regarding safety and efficacy made by experts and experienced persons. And others are jumping right in and copying them, even though it's plain as day and has been repeated many times that you cannot judge success, nor a lack of repellency, nor the effects on health, in such a short time frame as a few weeks.
The phrase "the blind leading the blind" comes to mind.
Over and over, here and on other threads, reasonable suggestions and information have been deflected. The implication (and sometimes outright charge) is that people are advising against certain techniques (OR frequency/mode of application) because they are PCOs and stand to benefit if the person sees a PCO.
It's been stated repeatedly, I am not a PCO. I do not benefit if you call one.
EffeCi is a PCO in Milan, David Cain in London, and Sean Rollo in Vancouver. You're unlikely to be in the location to call one of them.Doug is a dog handler, and to my knowledge, does not do PCO treatment.
spideyjg and buggyinsocal are bedbuggers (non-pros). They do not benefit if you call a PCO. They are only concerned with your welfare (and that of others) and ability to solve the problem quickly and safely.
No one has ever said the product itself might not be a useful tool, or does not kill bed bugs. But there may be more efficacious combinations of materials to do the job, there may be safer methods and methods which produce less repellency.
No one here has ever said you cannot ever treat your own infestation, though it is a simple truth that many people who attempt this make a terrible mess of it. They come on and tell us this all the time themselves, and so do PCOs who go in later to try and make things right.
And by the way, if you had a PCO who was doing what jason1 suggested (using only one method and overapplying it daily), or spraying your mattress as rjames did, we would tell you s/he was not a good one.
-
NoBugs has stated the issues succinctly .... I don't have much to add
I get the impression that Dragon Flight & Jason are sincere about wanting to help others & clearly enthused about the Ortho product, but I share NoBugs concerns about the safety of others that decide to follow their lead.
I can certainly understand the desire for an effective D-I-Y product that would be an affordable solution.
Keep in mind that experienced bed bug specialists typically use several products in a coordinated fashion ... dusts, sprays, encapsulated products .... while requiring prep work that includes manual removal methods like vacuuming, isolating items, washing & drying clothing, ect.
The key is to use a synergistic approach that is safe & effective ....
I don't think that anyone will drop dead or turn green, but I am concerned about over-exposure for pets (particularly fish & birds) or people with health issues.
Many experienced PCOs will not treat a mattress ... period.... even if the product is labeled for it.
Different field populations of bed bugs have demonstrated resistance at various levels in laboratory studies.... I have had PCOs tell me that they often find that different products are required to be successful in different locations due to resistance issues.
I'll link a couple of studies that you may find interesting
-
The science is available if you run a search for it
This is just the abstract.... I'm looking for the full study
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jws/ps/2009/00000065/00000003/art00016?crawler=trueI think you will find this one really interesting .... Fascinating power point lecture by Dini Miller Phd from Virginia Tech that addresses resistance studies & other relevant issues
http://aapco.ceris.purdue.edu/doc/min2008/attach/03mar08/attach32.pdf -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 8 2009 16:42:13
#
Login to Send PM
Oh damn, I just wrote out a very long message....basically replying to all of you that have posted in here today.
But it didn't post :( :( My fault this time though. I'm mobile at a Starbucks....I should know better than to post messages using this piss poor connection. But on the bright side....a new study is out saying how helpful coffe can be in the prevention of Alzthiemers. I can't exactly remember where I heard that, but I did.
Anyway, thank's everyone for your concern, and messages. I read them ALL....including the ones showing concern in what myself, and others, are doing in regards to the spraying. And believe it or not, I do consider them ALL.
But you have to remember, with the hell iv'e gone through in the past year....mental health, severe sleep deprevation, overal health.....seemingly EVERYTHING, in a deep, deep, downward spiral and out of control....then, out of nowhere, I find something that actually works, when nothing worked before, including pco's and other self treatment (besides spraying) then you must understand i'm going to go with whatever it is. And it just happens to be spraying. I can not even begin to explain the overal improvement in my life this past month....it's like a NEW life, even better than before the bb's came along. I know that may sound strange, but it's because it's such a relief not being bitten anymore and having those f..ing things crawling all over me, all night long. I don't know, it's hard to explain.
The "minor" health risks, and I do mean minor, imo, are nothing compared to what I went through....nothing! Especially the Canadian version. I would still use the US version if I lived in the USA, no doubt about that....but with the BIF, probably wouldn't spray as often. Then again, I don't think it really matters? I mean, both products seem to be working almost the same....and i'm now considering bi-weekly treatment.
Iv'e said many, many times in this thread, spraying isn't the "only" thing i'm doing in my self treatment.....but it's been the most helpful, no question about it.
A month without bb bites, a remarkable decrease in overal sightings, a matter of fact....I have not seen a single bb, outside of the dead ones, wherever iv'e sprayed....IE: the ring of death, cracks/crevices, baseboards, etc....in several days now.I never said it's the "silver bullet"....not ONCE! But i'll be damned if it's not working for "me"....because it is. It's definately a silver bullet as far as bites go, at least for me, that's for sure. Will it be the silver bullet "long-term" as far as getting rid of, and keeping the bed bugs away?....time will tell. It's only been a month.....but I think 60-90 days will tell all.
"Repellancy"? I don't think so, I really don't. Why? because with all the chauking iv'e done, and everything else, I honestly don't know where the damn things could go. Believe me when I say i'm checking everywhere, I mean "everywhere"....Because I know they can hide pretty much anywhere.
Thanks again everyone....the bb saga continues....but "may" be finally coming to a halt, soon, I hope!
-
Doug's last post was just rescued from spam. Please scroll up to read!
-
Desparate
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 19
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 8 2009 22:59:40
#
Login to Send PM
I have read through all of the pros and cons in this post about the over-the-counter approach having some result. I am interested in this not as a permanent solution, but perhaps one that will temporarily keep us from being bitten each night until we can have a professional come in and eliminate the problem properly. For several reasons we cannot do anything with a professional until September at the earliest. I am wondering if until we can get the pro in, this Ortho product (US) would temporarily help us out.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 9 2009 14:33:38
#
Login to Send PM
Well, if you've read my messages.....you know what MY answer is.
And if you've read all the pro's and cons.....you should be able to make a decision based on what you've read.
For me....the "possible", though, imo, "unlikely" health risks, were worth taking, because finding something that worked after all this time....far outwieghed those risks. To say i'm in a much better place now, than I was 4 weeks ago....is the understatement of the year, lol.
I'm in Canada....where the product does not contain Bifenthrin. But then too, as I said in another post....even if I did live in the USA, I would still use the product, but I might not have sprayed as much as I did when I first started my spraying regime!
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Desparate - 15 hours ago »
help us out.
I have read through all of the pros and cons in this post about the over-the-counter approach having some result. I am interested in this not as a permanent solution, but perhaps one that will temporarily keep us from being bitten each night until we can have a professional come in and eliminate the problem properly. For several reasons we cannot do anything with a professional until September at the earliest. I am wondering if until we can get the pro in, this Ortho product (US) would [b]temporarily -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Fri Jul 10 2009 15:23:15
#
Login to Send PM
Weekly update:
Now into week #5.
Everything is still looking good....seeing/finding "dead" bugs only, for the past week....in the ring of death, and elsewhere. No live bug sightings, and no bb bites in over a month now.
Starting today, because of the overal success iv'e been having, and with the fact iv'e not seen any live bb's in almost a week.....iv'e decided to begin bi-monthly spraying.....down from weekly. I will spray all the usual places.
Have a great weekend all!
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Fri Jul 10 2009 15:24:46
#
Login to Send PM
Thank's for the links....will definately check them out over the weekend!
DougSummersMS - 1 day ago »
The science is available if you run a search for it
This is just the abstract.... I'm looking for the full study
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jws/ps/2009/00000065/00000003/art00016?crawler=true
I think you will find this one really interesting .... Fascinating power point lecture by Dini Miller Phd from Virginia Tech that addresses resistance studies & other relevant issues
http://aapco.ceris.purdue.edu/doc/min2008/attach/03mar08/attach32.pdf -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Fri Jul 10 2009 15:30:52
#
Login to Send PM
I too would like to know ALL the ingredients, in both US and CND versions.
Maybe i'll email them and ask.
Your "strains/resistance" question is a very good one!
BedBugBatty - 2 days ago »
Doug,
After re-reading what you wrote, and researching more about Bifenthrin, I agree that it's important to focus on the scientific evidence at hand. That having been said, I will say that so far, it has been the most effective tool in my arsenal of do-it-yourself attempts to rid myself of the infestation. I don't think dragonflight advocates something as dumb as intentionally spraying people or food with Bifenthrin. The major problem boils down to the fact that biochemical toxicity is not exactly a field many people can claim to be experts in--which is why we have to rely on hard facts for appropriate usage. It can be very difficult for ordinary humans to assess how toxic something is if it doesn't immediately kill us or causes our skin to turn green.
My gut feeling, especially with Jason, is that he's really excited to rid himself of the problem, which has led to his passionate, constant re-spraying to rid himself of the problem. I think, in general, most members of this forum are looking out for each other, and the reason we're concerned about potential overspraying is mostly due to the user potentially harming him/herself. Yes, egos will sometimes clash, but that mostly happens because in general, although bedbugs are bad, they don't kill people, whereas pesticides in general have the looming danger of cancer or other adverse side effects that may linger long after the bugs are gone.
I think we should get some more information about the active ingredient in Ortho, and figure out the difference between the Canadian/US versions. I'm personally wondering if different strains of bedbugs can have very different degrees of resistance to different types of pytherins? -
Canadian version
Ortho Home Defence Max
Permethrin 0.25 %
http://www.scotts.ca/media/media/_PDFs/Canada/Controls%20-%20Home%20Defense%20Max%20RTU%20709%20mL%20Label%20(30373-1).pdf[b]
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Sat Jul 11 2009 9:03:16
#
Login to Send PM
This topic is very interesting. I will say this first, for some reasonI am unable to find the beginning of the thread and therefore cannot see Jason1's first steps, beyond the spraying.
Jason1 one of the many things that I've gleaned from reading this is that you're opposed to repeating anything, but please as a sufferer I'd love to know how you got started and what exactly the "ring of death" entails.
In terms of the PCO, I must admit I'm a little ignorant as to the argument concerning repelling although I completely understand the health concerns associated with spraying. Please help.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Sat Jul 11 2009 15:34:25
#
Login to Send PM
BBsonme,
Just before the bottom of each page....you will see 1,2,3....and so on, depending on what page we are currently on. To see all the posts....click on page 1, then continue from their.
If it doesn't work for whatever reason, i'll be happy to answer your questions.
BBsonme - 6 hours ago »
This topic is very interesting. I will say this first, for some reasonI am unable to find the beginning of the thread and therefore cannot see Jason1's first steps, beyond the spraying.
Jason1 one of the many things that I've gleaned from reading this is that you're opposed to repeating anything, but please as a sufferer I'd love to know how you got started and what exactly the "ring of death" entails.
In terms of the PCO, I must admit I'm a little ignorant as to the argument concerning repelling although I completely understand the health concerns associated with spraying. Please help. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Sat Jul 11 2009 22:07:04
#
Login to Send PM
Jason1 -- clicked on page one as directed, still unable to view complete messages. When viewing RSS feed the first complete message is from July 1.
Happily I had one practically full bottle of Ortho HD Max (US). I'm sitting with my finger on the trigger and ready to take aim, but fear doing things the wrong way and not only failing to eradicate but also pissing off the buggers.
-
buggyinsocal
oldtimer
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,130
Posted 4 months ago
Sun Jul 12 2009 2:42:01
#
Login to Send PM
BBsonme,
I can't help with the technical problems you're having. The fastest way to get an answer on that issue would probably be to send a private message to the moderator since she generally has a handle on technical issues on the forum.
I'm not a PCO. I also didn't have traditional chemical treatment for my bed bug problem. (For several reasons, I opted for thermal remediation which got rid of all my bugs in one go). So what I'm about to tell you is information that I have gleaned from reading multiple posts on the site over time.
One of the reasons that many people here suggest that the fastest and most cost effective way to safely get rid of a bed bug problem is to hire a professional pest controller to apply pesticides is this: some commonly available chemical pesticides appear in both lab and field environments to have a repellant effect on bed bugs. Unlike other pests, bed bugs don't groom themselves and can't be baited. We do know that several commonly available pesticides tend to make bed bugs move away from those chemicals. I don't know if the Ortho product you're talking about is in that class or not.
I do know that the chemicals in foggers in particular have a strong reputation for having that effect.
You should also know that by law in the US, any chemical pesticide must have a standardized sheet of information that comes with it or is available (you can look them up online if you want). Those sheets are commonly called MSDS sheets. Before applying any chemical pesticide, it would be wise to read the MSDS for any chemicals contained in a particular pesticide.
One of the reasons that bed bugs are hard to treat, esp. for inexperienced PCOs, is that there is only one chemical pesticide that has been labeled (i.e. received government approval) for use on mattresses. I don't recall (because it's late, and my treatments were over a year ago, and I only had one round of chemical and thermal and therefore didn't have such information repeated as much as people who had only chemical) exactly which one it is. I *think* it's Bedlam, but (and I cannot stress this enough) remember that part of the reason that beds, sofas, upholstered chairs and such are things that the governmental agencies that oversee pesticide usage are so concerned about is that we spend approximately 1/3 of our life sleeping, which means we spend (when we don't have bed bugs) approximately one third of our life in contact with those items. Since some pesticides can be absorbed through the skin, we all need to be extra cautious about what we spray on those kinds of surfaces. (I include sofas in that list because as an insomniac, I know how much time I spent sleeping on my sofa when I fall asleep there instead of in my bed. )
Some people here argue that so-called "green meanies" have been alarmist about the dangers of pesticides. Other people here have had family members whose health has been grievously injured by over application of pesticides.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that none of us are medical doctors who can tell you what underlying health issues you and/or your pets and family members have. And probably many of the negative effects of exposure to pesticides are long term effects that you might not notice within a few weeks or even months of treatment.
But then, you said you got that part. Sorry. It's late.
The repellant effect:
We know that foggers often contain chemicals that seem to make bed bugs run away from the chemicals. I haven't looked at foggers so I can't tell you what chemicals are in them. If the chemicals in the fogger are the same as the chemicals in what you bought, that's a pretty good indicator that using that spray may drive the bugs away.
However, I'm not a chemist or a PCO, so even if you posted the name of those chemicals, I can't tell you for sure if it's one of the classes of chemicals that tends to repel bed bugs.
I know that when you're being eaten alive, repelling them sounds great, but what it can do is drive the infestation deeper into your walls or into more rooms of your residence, making the problem that much harder to treat.
I hope that helps.
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Sun Jul 12 2009 10:12:37
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks buggyin socal. I've been toying the the idea of changing my name on this site to night scouter. At least that is what I feel I've become. Thankfully it is the weekend and my one hour snooze saturday will carry me through.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Mon Jul 13 2009 12:05:47
#
Login to Send PM
BBsonme,
Are you able to view the complete messages yet?
Maybe some kind of bug in the system.
I'll re-post a few messages for you if the problem persists.
BBsonme - 1 day ago »
Jason1 -- clicked on page one as directed, still unable to view complete messages. When viewing RSS feed the first complete message is from July 1.
Happily I had one practically full bottle of Ortho HD Max (US). I'm sitting with my finger on the trigger and ready to take aim, but fear doing things the wrong way and not only failing to eradicate but also pissing off the buggers. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Mon Jul 13 2009 17:27:49
#
Login to Send PM
No Jason1, I'm not. For some reason as far as I can go back is the message posted on July 1. Are you still bite free? Is there still hope? I'm becoming less and less hopeful by the day.
-
rjames
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 8
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 10:17:17
#
Login to Send PM
Just an update from me...
Still bug free - bug free meaning no bites, no bugs seen, no dead bugs seen. I hope this is it, and will continue doing what I'm doing. Something else I've done - head lice products generally contain permethrin. Most drug stores have 'bedding' spray for head lice. This is made for bedding, so no worries about using it indoors. I have also used that to treat everything that I won't spray the Ortho directly on. It's also *in my opinion* giving the bugs a nice 1-2 punch of permethrin and bifenthrin.
I am not a chemist, so I don't know if that's helping or hurting, but it makes me feel better, and we continue to be bug free*.
* By bug free I mean that we haven't seen any or been bitten. We are inspecting everywhere possible. I am fully aware that they might just be amassing troops at the border waiting for the chemical to wear off enough to launch a full scale invasion, but for now, I'm getting a good nights sleep. I'll deal with the 'shock and awe' portion of my plan another day, if it comes down to it.
No I don't really have a 'shock and awe' plan. I wish I did.
-
bait
member
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 160
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 14:05:00
#
Login to Send PM
Has anyone else used the Ortho HD Max - US or CDN - and had results like Jason1? Sorry, but this is a rather long post and I'd like to cut to the chase.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 17:29:33
#
Login to Send PM
Yes, i'm still bb free.....almost 5 weeks now. And I have not seen any bb's at all, anywhere, in over a week.
That sucks you can't view the other messages prior to July 1st. I have no idea why that would be.
I'll try to make time later today/tonight to re-post a few messages for you that explains the steps i'm taking!
BBsonme - 23 hours ago »
No Jason1, I'm not. For some reason as far as I can go back is the message posted on July 1. Are you still bite free? Is there still hope? I'm becoming less and less hopeful by the day. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 17:34:17
#
Login to Send PM
Yes, 3 or 4 that I know of on this thread. Their results seem similar to mine, so far.
RJames just posted a message above yours, and a couple other people if you review back.
bait - 3 hours ago »
Has anyone else used the Ortho HD Max - US or CDN - and had results like Jason1? Sorry, but this is a rather long post and I'd like to cut to the chase. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 17:47:50
#
Login to Send PM
Excellent News RJames, i'm so happy for you and your family.
It makes me feel good to know iv'e been able to help others with my story.....which so far, has had, along with you and others....pretty damn good results.
That's very interesting your comments about the "head lice" products.
Anyway, glad you're bb bite freee....that's the important thing, and being able to sleep at night for a change.
Like you said, and I say the same thing....."if they come back, i'll deal with them then". But they are no longer here "NOW".
I too have looked everywhere possible for remaining bb's....really don't know where they could be hiding to launch another attack, if that's the case. And imo, that is a big "if" considering the inspections iv'e done!
rjames - 7 hours ago »
Just an update from me...
Still bug free - bug free meaning no bites, no bugs seen, no dead bugs seen. I hope this is it, and will continue doing what I'm doing. Something else I've done - head lice products generally contain permethrin. Most drug stores have 'bedding' spray for head lice. This is made for bedding, so no worries about using it indoors. I have also used that to treat everything that I won't spray the Ortho directly on. It's also *in my opinion* giving the bugs a nice 1-2 punch of permethrin and bifenthrin.
I am not a chemist, so I don't know if that's helping or hurting, but it makes me feel better, and we continue to be bug free*.
* By bug free I mean that we haven't seen any or been bitten. We are inspecting everywhere possible. I am fully aware that they might just be amassing troops at the border waiting for the chemical to wear off enough to launch a full scale invasion, but for now, I'm getting a good nights sleep. I'll deal with the 'shock and awe' portion of my plan another day, if it comes down to it.
No I don't really have a 'shock and awe' plan. I wish I did. -
Keep in mind that although these products share the same name ....We are talking about two completely different formulations that do not share the same active ingredients.
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/finally-something-works/page/3#post-53037
Canadian version
Ortho Home Defense Max
Permethrin 0.25 %Here is the Canadian label
http://www.scotts.ca/media/media/_PDFs/MSDS/Canada/Controls_07_Home_Defense_Max_Perimeter_and_Indoor_RTU_2L_4.pdfhttp://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/finally-something-works/page/2#post-52779
Here is the list of active ingredients off the label
American version of Ortho Home Defense Max
Active Ingredient
Bifenthrin*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.05%
Other Ingredients . . . . . . . . 99.95%
*Cis isomers 97% minimum, trans isomers 3% maximum
US Patent No. 4,238,505
NET/NETO 1/2 GAL / 1.89 L
Here is a link for the American label
http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdfBe careful when you make any comparisons between the two products .... You are talking about a completely different chemical formulation depending on which country you are in when you purchase the spray.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 19:45:07
#
Login to Send PM
Doug,
That's true....yet both products seem, at least from what people are saying in this thread, are getting very similar results as i'm getting.
The "active" ingredients are different, but some of the others are the same. Which leads me to believe it may be in those "other" ingredients that is the real catalyst here? Hell,
who knows....i'm no chemist, lol, I just know they both seem to be working. Could also be a combination of all ingredients, also, even though, as you say....the active ingredients are different.DougSummersMS - 44 minutes ago »
Keep in mind that although these products share the same name ....We are talking about two completely different formulations that do not share the same active ingredients.
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/finally-something-works/page/3#post-53037
Canadian version
Ortho Home Defense Max
Permethrin 0.25 %
Here is the Canadian label
http://www.scotts.ca/media/media/_PDFs/MSDS/Canada/Controls_07_Home_Defense_Max_Perimeter_and_Indoor_RTU_2L_4.pdf
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/finally-something-works/page/2#post-52779
Here is the list of active ingredients off the label
American version of Ortho Home Defense Max
Active Ingredient
Bifenthrin*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.05%
Other Ingredients . . . . . . . . 99.95%
*Cis isomers 97% minimum, trans isomers 3% maximum
US Patent No. 4,238,505
NET/NETO 1/2 GAL / 1.89 L
Here is a link for the American label
http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdf
Be careful when you make any comparisons between the two products .... You are talking about a completely different chemical formulation depending on which country you are in when you purchase the spray. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 19:54:18
#
Login to Send PM
Doug,
Good points. The following is a post by badwolf who adresses this issue.
I'm not a chemist but it does sound logical (insert Spock here)
I posted a message prior to this one, with my own thoughts on the matter, which are somewhat similar to Badwolf...but it didn't post.
I think it's the link/spam filter thing!
Badwolf post....
Jason - Perhaps the Ortho's 'other' ingredients provide for a more efficacious delivery of the chemical vs. the PCO products? If PCO's are using more potent products, you would expect them to achieve much better results than the Ortho. If the Ortho is producing such amazing results, then perhaps it's formulation is structured in such a way that the BB's absorb the chemicals at a higher dose/rate than the PCO chemicals are able to achieve. Of course, I'm just speculating here.
Since the Canadian formulation is using a weaker chemical than the US one, but is also producing such great results, then I suspect that the Ortho's formulation for delivering those chemicals may be at the heart of it's success. The fact that Ortho claims it has a 12 month residual is another reason why I'm thinking that this is why it's achieving it's high kill rate.
-
I am not qualified to answer that one.....
EffeCi speculated about the inactives playing a role in the efficacy, but I suspect that we are comparing apples with oranges here .....
I think the common trade name is at the root of the confusion here .....
However, I can tell you that, how an agent is delivered can be critically important for effectiveness of a given chemical .... Some formulations utilize synergist agents that increase the efficacy of the product....
If I told you that I was successful spraying Ortho Bifenthrin 0.05% in one unit and compared my results to a unit across town that you treated with Ortho Permethrin 0.25% ..... I am not sure that it would be logical to conclude that the two outcomes were directly related...... other than the manufacturer of the products were the same in each case .....
We haven't established a causal relationship..... We have only established a correlation .... a rather weak correlation based on the observation that bed bugs died in each case where Ortho products were utilized ..... In order to establish a causal relationship we need at minimum.... control groups and an objective way to directly measure the outcomes ..... We would require large groups to produce reliable stats .... Small group stats often produce misleading results .....
One principle that was drilled into my head in graduate school was that you cannot prove a causal relationship based on the observation of a correlation.....
-
your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 5,547
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 21:21:55
#
Login to Send PM
Jason1,
I rescued your post from spam and it's above your most recent one, no?
It can be triggered by multiple links. If it happens again, it will post shortly.
-
Badwolf
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 31
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 21:28:02
#
Login to Send PM
Hey Jason... when I made my speculation, I was under the impression that the US and Canadian versions Both claimed to have a 12 month residual. I looked at the Canadian label, and it apparently doesn't make that claim. In fact, the Cdn website for Ortho says to check for bug activity "every 3-4 weeks", and re-spray if necessary. That tells me that the US version is a much more powerful chemical than what you're using.
I'm going to guess that your great success with Ortho is derived from doing a much better and more thorough job of applying the chemical than the PCO's that treated your place. The chemical may be a watered down version of what PCO's use, but you've been excercising extreme vigilence and making sure that nothing is missed.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 21:34:08
#
Login to Send PM
Yes, I basically said in my post....the one that hasn't shown up yet.... is that maybe it's something in the "other" ingredients that is the real catalyst, who know!
I understand what you're saying about "controled study groups", etc, etc.....but while those "time consuming" study groups take place, if and when, people like me continue to suffer....while waiting. Especially people who can not afford pco's, or havn't had success with them. And no, not ALL pco's are bad, this is true....the same applies for most things.
All I know is what i'm doing is working....and seems to work for others, too.
Are their risks associated with the product? maybe....but their are risks in crossing the street and driving your car, yet we do it anyway.After 5 weeks of not being biten a single time....after being assaulted pretty much every night for almost a year....i'll be damned if i'm gonna stop now. But hey, that's just me.
The pro's and con's have been weighed, and we are all adult enough to make up our own minds.
DougSummersMS - 7 minutes ago »
I am not qualified to answer that one.....
EffeCi speculated about the inactives playing a role in the efficacy, but I suspect that we are comparing apples with oranges here .....
I think the common trade name is at the root of the confusion here .....
However, I can tell you that, how an agent is delivered can be critically important for effectiveness of a given chemical .... Some formulations utilize synergist agents that increase the efficacy of the product....
If I told you that I was successful spraying Ortho Bifenthrin 0.05% in one unit and compared my results to a unit across town that you treated with Ortho Permethrin 0.25% ..... I am not sure that it would be logical to conclude that the two outcomes were directly related...... other than the manufacturer of the products were the same in each case .....
We haven't established a causal relationship..... We have only established a correlation .... a rather weak correlation based on the observation that bed bugs died in each case where Ortho products were utilized ..... In order to establish a causal relationship we need at minimum.... control groups and an objective way to directly measure the outcomes ..... We would require large groups to produce reliable stats .... Small group stats often produce misleading results .....
One principle that was drilled into my head in graduate school was that you cannot prove a causal relationship based on the observation of a correlation..... -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 21:46:04
#
Login to Send PM
Yes, that definately would indicate a stronger version in the US, for sure.
3-4 weeks should mean my bi-monthly spraying may be sufficient. But I have just gone to bi-monthly, so time will tell. Since i'm no longer seeing bb's at all....i'm getting more and more confident as each day passes. Total success? No, i'm NOT there yet....but can't help but to be more hopeful than ever!
Badwolf - 13 minutes ago »
Hey Jason... when I made my speculation, I was under the impression that the US and Canadian versions Both claimed to have a 12 month residual. I looked at the Canadian label, and it apparently doesn't make that claim. In fact, the Cdn website for Ortho says to check for bug activity "every 3-4 weeks", and re-spray if necessary. That tells me that the US version is a much more powerful chemical than what you're using.
I'm going to guess that your great success with Ortho is derived from doing a much better and more thorough job of applying the chemical than the PCO's that treated your place. The chemical may be a watered down version of what PCO's use, but you've been excercising extreme vigilence and making sure that nothing is missed. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 14 2009 23:31:47
#
Login to Send PM
BBsonme,
First of all....DON'T lose hope. You will get through this nightmare.
The following is my first post on this board. I think it will answer the questions you asked me (since you can't access posts prior to July 1st)
A few items not mentioned in this post: I refer in later messages "the ring of death". You asked me what that was. The ring of death is the "barrier" surrounding my bed.
Also, you will notice in my post that I was sprayng every day for the first week or so. I'm not sure that would be a good idea for you, since you're using the US version which has BIF in it. In my case, I went from spraying every day, to spraying every second day, then once a week....and iv'e now just started bi-monthly. I may not have had to
spray everyday, even at the beginning. With once a week spraying i'm getting the same results as I did when I was spraying everyday. We will see what happens with bi-monthly. Iv'e just started so too early to tell.Also, i'm doing daily vacuuming....very important. And have done alot of chaulking of cracks/crevices, etc.
Anyway, here's the post....
First of all, i'm new here, so hello. I live in Vancouver, BC.
Iv'e had bedbugs since last last August/September, first starting out very mild, not many at all....with bites a couple times a week. However, it progressively got worse, especially the last 4 or 5 months. Multiple bites every night, including the nights the pest control people sprayed. Lack of sleep (2-3 hours per night) paranoia, etc, etc, you all know what i'm talking about i'm sure.
Anyway, i've never tried an OTC product because I kept thinking pest control would eventually take care of the problem....but it wasn't. Last week I was told by a clerk in a hardware store to try "Ortho Home Defense Max". He said it's worked for people in the past, even though it's not listed for Bed Bug elimination....but does have permethrin as an active ingredient, which is what the sprayers use in Dragnet. At this point I was willing to try just about anything, so decided to give it a go.
Bought it Friday....sprayed cracks/crevices, floor boards, under counters, closets, etc. Also sprayed around my bed, as a barrier, so the bugs hopefully wouldn't cross. It's now Monday.....and I havn't been biten, not once, in the last 3 nights since I used the product....after being biten every night for the last several months. I sprayed around my bed all 3 nights, to make sure....but only once in the other locations. Now i'm not saying this will work for EVERYONE....and I do still see the damn bed bugs crawling around....but not nearly as many as before, and the most important thing for me.....they won't cross the bed barrier to bite me. What I don't know, is, will they try when they get really hungry....and if they do, will the barrier hold? It definately kills the bb's on contact....so I can only hope it kills them when they eventually get desperate/hungry enough and try crawling through it. Also, it's pretty sticky, so maybe that will help too.
BBsonme - 1 day ago »
No Jason1, I'm not. For some reason as far as I can go back is the message posted on July 1. Are you still bite free? Is there still hope? I'm becoming less and less hopeful by the day. -
Jason -- please do not copy or repost messages.
Do you see a number symbol to he left of every post, next to the timestamp? If so, you can click it and copy/paste. It's a permalink for that specific post.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 0:54:24
#
Login to Send PM
Oh, ok, thanks!
Yea, I can see how it would take up alot of bandwidth re-posting old messages, sorry about that.
Nobugsonme - 18 minutes ago »
Jason -- please do not copy or repost messages.
Do you see a number symbol to he left of every post, next to the timestamp? If so, you can click it and copy/paste. It's a permalink for that specific post. -
rjames
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 8
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 8:27:00
#
Login to Send PM
Controlled study groups? Really? Sorry, I'm not a business launching a new product, or a studio screening a major movie. I'm just a guy trying to rid my family of bed bugs, and it would appear thus far have I been successful. I do hope that all the negativity here is based on us using what amounts to a dangerous chemical (It does kill things after all...) and not wanting to see anyone get hurt. If I had posted here that by leaving a block of aged cheddar cheese in the middle of the room seemed to take care of the bugs (no that doesn't work, I just made it up as an example. Please don't put a block of cheese on your floor), then three or four other people said they had similar results, would there be a clamor for controlled study groups? Would I be a monster for doing middle school science experiments on my family? Or would it just be "Hey, sounds really crazy, but if it works, good for you".
The fact of the matter is that there needs to be a good solid DIY solution for these things. Is the Ortho it? Maybe. Time will tell. I do know that I haven't seen any and nobody has been bitten here since we have started with the Ortho. Also, I should add that we did a very heavy 'spring clean' or sorts to the house. If we didn't need it or have an emotional attachment to it, it went in the trash. Think moving from a large house to a studio apartment kind of cleaning out. That may have had something to do with it, but no matter what you do if you have these things you clean top to bottom no matter what, right?
Jason1 - 10 hours ago »
Yes, I basically said in my post....the one that hasn't shown up yet.... is that maybe it's something in the "other" ingredients that is the real catalyst, who know!
I understand what you're saying about "controled study groups", etc, etc.....but while those "time consuming" study groups take place, if and when, people like me continue to suffer....while waiting. Especially people who can not afford pco's, or havn't had success with them. And no, not ALL pco's are bad, this is true....the same applies for most things.
All I know is what i'm doing is working....and seems to work for others, too.
Are their risks associated with the product? maybe....but their are risks in crossing the street and driving your car, yet we do it anyway.
After 5 weeks of not being biten a single time....after being assaulted pretty much every night for almost a year....i'll be damned if i'm gonna stop now. But hey, that's just me.
The pro's and con's have been weighed, and we are all adult enough to make up our own minds.DougSummersMS - 7 minutes ago »
I am not qualified to answer that one.....
EffeCi speculated about the inactives playing a role in the efficacy, but I suspect that we are comparing apples with oranges here .....
I think the common trade name is at the root of the confusion here .....
However, I can tell you that, how an agent is delivered can be critically important for effectiveness of a given chemical .... Some formulations utilize synergist agents that increase the efficacy of the product....
If I told you that I was successful spraying Ortho Bifenthrin 0.05% in one unit and compared my results to a unit across town that you treated with Ortho Permethrin 0.25% ..... I am not sure that it would be logical to conclude that the two outcomes were directly related...... other than the manufacturer of the products were the same in each case .....
We haven't established a causal relationship..... We have only established a correlation .... a rather weak correlation based on the observation that bed bugs died in each case where Ortho products were utilized ..... In order to establish a causal relationship we need at minimum.... control groups and an objective way to directly measure the outcomes ..... We would require large groups to produce reliable stats .... Small group stats often produce misleading results .....
One principle that was drilled into my head in graduate school was that you cannot prove a causal relationship based on the observation of a correlation.....
-
Oh yeah, We're just experimenting on human beings & their pets with toxic chemicals .... No need for any stinking scientific principles here ....
The point about causal relationships has completely eluded you.... BTW
I'd like to see your response when someone writes in to describe the agonizing death of their beloved pet after following your expert directions & advice.
Best of luck
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 16:59:49
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks Jason1, rjames and Doug. Your words of wisdom have definitely helped.
As I sit here I'm waiting for my PCO to come, he was supposed to come at 5, he is already 55 minutes late. I hope that is not an indication of how competent he is.
My plans for now: Have the PCO inspect. I'd like to find out exactly how far and wide my problem has spread. Hopefully he will check adjacent rooms and let me know if he finds any signs. During my initial clean up I found what I think to be casts in one shoe box under my bed and on a cotton ball that was also under the bed. I realized, after throwing out a few pairs of shoe boxes that I was throwing away any evidence so now I'm waiting. Hoping that my Co2 is not drawing them into my computer room.
Nala has been protected with flea and tick killer and the Hartz Ultra Guard that I purchased from WalMart actually has Permethrin in it.
He's here!!!
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 18:43:41
#
Login to Send PM
Update -- The PCO has left the building. He showed me pictures of what bed bugs look like. Well actually he showed me a picture of an adult bed bug. I showed him what I thought were casts from nymphs. He told me that he wasn't sure but thought they could be from carpet beetles. I have hard wood flooring throughout the whole home, save an area rug in my living room. I asked questions such as "what do you treat with?" He could not answer that question but said he 'should' know those answers. It turns out he doesn't actually treat he is simply a sales representative. I asked about bugs being scattered by the treatment to the other rooms, he felt confident that they would not scatter but stated that sometimes two or even three treatments are required to eradicate the nest. My boyfriend and I both thought he was tripped up by several of my questions. He said there was no need to empty the drawers in my bedroom, just open the bottom ones. He did say the clothes in the closet would have to be laundered.
In the end he said it would take approximately two hours to treat, would cost $550 to treat two rooms, that being the bedroom and the living room. I told him I spend more time in my office than my living room as I'm not one to stay at home and watch tv much. He didn't think the office needed treatment but he will throw that one in as a bonus.
He didn't leave me with much confidence in his knowledge. More disturbing to me was the fact that he said he was on his fourth inspection of the day. I wonder how many more people received those same answers, or maybe they haven't spent the last month on this forum and therefore don't know what questions to ask.
The bottom line is I was not convinced that whatever method he/his techs would employ would be much different than what I would do myself. Again when I asked what chemical they used he was unsure but he did state it was commercial grade.
I'm calling another PCO in the morning to have a second inspection. Not because I doubt that I have bed bugs, but because if I decide to hire a professional I want to feel like they are a little more knowledgable than I am.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 19:16:05
#
Login to Send PM
You know, as I read your post....all I could do was shake my head....and as I got to the bottom, actually, long before the bottom....I was thinking to myself, "get another opinion". And believe me, that was the "kinder" of what I was thinking, lol.
I'm glad to see you ARE in fact getting another opinion. And if you're not satisfied with it, get another....if you still decide to go the pco route.
This guy does not sound very professional, to say the least.....and 550.00 for 2 hours of work is way over the top! I would have shown the pencil pusher the door as soon as he gave me that quote. What's really alarming is that he didn't have answers to very "basic" questions....yet this dude is giving estimates??
Their are good and bad in every profession, your first just happened to be BAD. Good luck with the next one!
Jason1 - 12 seconds ago »
BBsonme - 18 minutes ago »
Update -- The PCO has left the building. He showed me pictures of what bed bugs look like. Well actually he showed me a picture of an adult bed bug. I showed him what I thought were casts from nymphs. He told me that he wasn't sure but thought they could be from carpet beetles. I have hard wood flooring throughout the whole home, save an area rug in my living room. I asked questions such as "what do you treat with?" He could not answer that question but said he 'should' know those answers. It turns out he doesn't actually treat he is simply a sales representative. I asked about bugs being scattered by the treatment to the other rooms, he felt confident that they would not scatter but stated that sometimes two or even three treatments are required to eradicate the nest. My boyfriend and I both thought he was tripped up by several of my questions. He said there was no need to empty the drawers in my bedroom, just open the bottom ones. He did say the clothes in the closet would have to be laundered.
In the end he said it would take approximately two hours to treat, would cost $550 to treat two rooms, that being the bedroom and the living room. I told him I spend more time in my office than my living room as I'm not one to stay at home and watch tv much. He didn't think the office needed treatment but he will throw that one in as a bonus.
He didn't leave me with much confidence in his knowledge. More disturbing to me was the fact that he said he was on his fourth inspection of the day. I wonder how many more people received those same answers, or maybe they haven't spent the last month on this forum and therefore don't know what questions to ask.
The bottom line is I was not convinced that whatever method he/his techs would employ would be much different than what I would do myself. Again when I asked what chemical they used he was unsure but he did state it was commercial grade.
I'm calling another PCO in the morning to have a second inspection. Not because I doubt that I have bed bugs, but because if I decide to hire a professional I want to feel like they are a little more knowledgable than I am. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 19:34:11
#
Login to Send PM
Jason1 -- BAD would be an understatement here.
Just one last tidbit of information that I have to pass on. Thanks to buggysinsocal I reviewed the MSDS from the mail order product I purchased. The main ingredients are Pyethrins 0.2%; Piperony butoxide, technical 1.0% and silicon dioxide (AMORPHOUS SILICA) 82.0%. I googled amorphous silica - silcon dioxide and found that it is what is currently viewed as the "safe" form of DE and it is not known to cause silicosis although I must use a mask when applying.
Heading back over to my boyfriends tonight. I no longer carry the overnight bag.
Nala is safe thanks to her Frontline and DougSummer.
My bed is now protected thanks to $8 pillow covers and $10 mattress encasement (also applied to box spring).
More importantly I now have hope that this battle can be won.
BTW -- the PCO did say one thing that I totally agree with -- "bed bugs are a nightmare."
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 19:53:53
#
Login to Send PM
BBsonme,
What is the mail order product you ordered? I remember you saying you had Ortho, but those ingredients don't sound familiar.
Yea, at least that salesman was able to make a determination about how bad bb's are, haha!
BBsonme - 13 minutes ago »
Jason1 -- BAD would be an understatement here.
Just one last tidbit of information that I have to pass on. Thanks to buggysinsocal I reviewed the MSDS from the mail order product I purchased. The main ingredients are Pyethrins 0.2%; Piperony butoxide, technical 1.0% and silicon dioxide (AMORPHOUS SILICA) 82.0%. I googled amorphous silica - silcon dioxide and found that it is what is currently viewed as the "safe" form of DE and it is not known to cause silicosis although I must use a mask when applying.
Heading back over to my boyfriends tonight. I no longer carry the overnight bag.
Nala is safe thanks to her Frontline and DougSummer.
My bed is now protected thanks to $8 pillow covers and $10 mattress encasement (also applied to box spring).
More importantly I now have hope that this battle can be won.
BTW -- the PCO did say one thing that I totally agree with -- "bed bugs are a nightmare." -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 15 2009 19:59:48
#
Login to Send PM
Completely off-topic....but I just wanted to share this as an example of what MOST people seem to think about the evil bed bug....and how/who gets them.
I was explaining to a colleague the other day about my bb problem. Her reply...."your place must be pretty dirty and needs cleaning, do you also have cockroaches?"
I tried to explain bb's don't care about that, all they care about is getting your blood. I also explained how we have bb's in multi-million dollar homes/condo's, etc, here In vancouver....as well as 500.00 + per night high end hotels. Her reply...."those people who stayed in the hotels must have visited someone at a homeless shelter or something, and brought them in"
I gave up!
BTW, with the winter olympics here next year, and people arriving from every corner of the planet....it is expected our already bad BB problem is going to explode!
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 16 2009 6:03:10
#
Login to Send PM
Oops, I forgot to mention that aspect in this post. I posted somewhere else. When I first thought I was being bit I did a google search on how to kill bed bugs. It took me to a web site called beanproducts. The product is called Bed Bug Killer, made my Indika organics
http://www.bedbugkiller.us/index.html. I'm not quite sure how to insert links but I tried above. The web page has just a short paragraph explaining how the product works.The Ortho I had on hand and after reading your post I decided I would give the bugs the one-two punch.
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 16 2009 6:05:06
#
Login to Send PM
I told my sister I thought I had bed bugs and stated I was having a PCO visit. She said, can't you just wrap your bed in saran wrap or something and get rid of them. I remember when I was so ignorant as to the nature of the bed bugs. Happy Days!!!!!
-
DragonFlight
banned
Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 233
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 16 2009 7:49:53
#
Login to Send PM
HaHa priceless. And Jason you are correct about the bed bug problem going to happen in Vancouver in regards to the Olympics, supposedly they know this is a problem in Vancouver from what I read, but if they come up with any solution is another question.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 16 2009 14:36:22
#
Login to Send PM
Lmao!!!!! saran wrap, too funny!
BBsonme - 8 hours ago »
I told my sister I thought I had bed bugs and stated I was having a PCO visit. She said, can't you just wrap your bed in saran wrap or something and get rid of them. I remember when I was so ignorant as to the nature of the bed bugs. Happy Days!!!!! -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 16 2009 14:41:39
#
Login to Send PM
Yea, people are talking about it alot. Just saw another news story about that the other day.
Bad enough the expense to hold the Olympics....but bb's worse than we have now, not good!
And to think, we are voted, consistently, year after year, almost at the top of the rankings for the most livable place to live, and raise a family, on earth. Nice to see bb's enjoy themselves so much here. Damn things don't even pay taxes!
DragonFlight - 6 hours ago »
HaHa priceless. And Jason you are correct about the bed bug problem going to happen in Vancouver in regards to the Olympics, supposedly they know this is a problem in Vancouver from what I read, but if they come up with any solution is another question. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Fri Jul 17 2009 13:17:29
#
Login to Send PM
Time for another weekly update!
I gotta he honest....their really isn't much to update....and considering how well things have been going with most of my previous updates....that is a good thing.
I'm now entering 6 weeks....bed bug bite free. The barrier (ring of death) surrounding my bed, is continuing to hold. I have not sprayed since last Friday....and will not spray again until next Friday as i'm now spraying bi-monthly. This goes for ALL spraying. Cracks/crevices, under counters, etc. I'm still vacuuming alot, and inspecting everywhere I can think of for bb's.
Which brings me to the topic of overall sightings. I have not seen a single live bb in almost 2 weeks. And no bb bites entering into 6 weeks.
Still too early to claim complete/total success. But as i've mentioned before....the "bite" problem has definately been solved....no more bites, bb crawling all over me at night. What is yet to be determined is if my 2 weeks without seeing any bb's....will continue, or will they return? I honestly believe with the steps i've taken, I have a good handle on the situation....with complete success at hand....just not quite "yet".
I understand the concerns over repellency, I do. But in my case, I don't think it has been an issue, nor do I think it will be in the future. Some may think i'm being a little naive....that's fine, but until i'm proven wrong in what i'm doing, and until the problem returns, if ever, I can only continue to do, what so far....has worked....better than I could ever have imagined it would when I started.
Have a great weekend all!
-
Badwolf
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 31
Posted 4 months ago
Fri Jul 17 2009 18:18:36
#
Login to Send PM
I have a question regarding repellency to any of the experts on the board: If you're able to repel the BB's without causing them to move to adjacent units (i.e. detached homes, and apt/condos with 100% firecode seperation between units side-side/top-bottom) then wouldn't repelling the BB's be a good thing? Every week that they go without feeding, is another week closer to their expiration date.
DougSummersMS - I was looking over the PowerPoint presentation link you provided from VirginiaTech, and on page16 it says - "Repellants: No Functional Repellants". What do they mean by that? Curious.
-
Different definitions
Repellent action & functional repellent
I think Dr Miller is saying that we do not have any products for bed bugs that work like DEET based mosquito products.
If you look at the U of Kentucky studies on bed bug tendencies to avoid a treated surface ... then you will see the research that other members were talking about earlier with regard to repellent action.
Here is an interview on New York vs Bed Bugs
http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/02/01/an-interview-with-bed-bug-researcher-alvaro-romero/ -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Sat Jul 18 2009 11:39:48
#
Login to Send PM
Speaking of mosquito products.....they're everywhere. Even grocery stores.
If more r&d was done with bb's....it would be the same thing.
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Sun Jul 19 2009 17:06:04
#
Login to Send PM
Jason1 glad to hear your still bite free. Please keep up posted on the progress. I know you said you had treatment for one year by PCO prior to your self treatment. How bad was your infestation in the beginning? I have inspected my closets, dresser, shoe boxes, and still have yet to see a live bug. Well, with the exception of the one that was sitting atop my comforter last weekend. Also, how fast do they move? The one that I saw wasn't moving at all. It wasn't dead but it wasn't moving.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 21 2009 16:22:15
#
Login to Send PM
My infestation at the beginning was on the medium side. Not really heavy, but not mild, either. It did continually get worse during the year, however.....inching towards what I would term "heavy".
Yes, they like comforters....they sure did mine!
They move pretty quick....although the baby/smaller ones seem to move faster than the full, or almost full grown bb's. Of course they are all slower just after a feeding. The best time to catch them cause they're so slow....but of course you wanna get to them before that stage. They also sometimes "play dead"....until you kich their ass, then they move!
BBsonme - 1 day ago »
Jason1 glad to hear your still bite free. Please keep up posted on the progress. I know you said you had treatment for one year by PCO prior to your self treatment. How bad was your infestation in the beginning? I have inspected my closets, dresser, shoe boxes, and still have yet to see a live bug. Well, with the exception of the one that was sitting atop my comforter last weekend. Also, how fast do they move? The one that I saw wasn't moving at all. It wasn't dead but it wasn't moving. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 21 2009 17:13:05
#
Login to Send PM
Thanks for that information Jason1. I know it is probably naive but I think my problem must be on the mild side as well.
A girlfriend from college said she treated her bed bugs by just washing the walls down with alcohol and soap. She stayed in her home for six months after she noticed her first bites and never had a recurrence. Her landlord also bombed for fleas. I have my second pco visit tomorrow at 6:30. I have lots of questions; hopefully he has lots of answers.
Alas, the decluttering process must continue.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 21 2009 19:06:54
#
Login to Send PM
You're welcome.
Except for at the beginning, I don't think my infestation was ever on the mild side. Over several months, almost a year of pco's....the problem got considerably worse. Why that is, I do not know. It doesn't make sense but that's what happened.
A friend joked that the pco's must have been spraying synthetic blood, lmao!
Glad it worked out for your friend.
The fact of the matter is self-treatment in MANY cases, does work....and their is just no doubt about that. Your friend, myself, and alot of others have proven this. Will self-treatment work in ALL cases? I do not know. It probably depends on what the self treatment methods are, and/or how heavy the infestation.
Good luck with your 2nd pco....can't be any worse than the first!
BBsonme - 1 hour ago »
Thanks for that information Jason1. I know it is probably naive but I think my problem must be on the mild side as well.
A girlfriend from college said she treated her bed bugs by just washing the walls down with alcohol and soap. She stayed in her home for six months after she noticed her first bites and never had a recurrence. Her landlord also bombed for fleas. I have my second pco visit tomorrow at 6:30. I have lots of questions; hopefully he has lots of answers.
Alas, the decluttering process must continue. -
Jeanette
newbite
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 34
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 21 2009 19:41:07
#
Login to Send PM
Hi Jason, I got rid of bed bugs within a month, in May 2008, using integrated pest management and a DE solution as explained in my thread on this website http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/four-months-bite-free-steps-taken#post-35316.
I did not use a PCO. I isolated my bed, as explained in my thread, so, by taking the precautions explained in my posting and by the grace of God, slept bite-free. I did not need to spray a ring of pesticide around my bed.
It is now over one-year since I got rid of the bugs and I still live in the same apartment. I thought I would share this with you in case you found it helpful.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Tue Jul 21 2009 19:47:27
#
Login to Send PM
Excellent, and congratulations Jeanette!
Another form of self-treatment that works.
I'm very interested in reading how you were able to isolate your bed, in a way that was different than mine. I know their are other methods and yours sounds interesting.
Thanks for the link!
Jeanette - 2 minutes ago »
Hi Jason, I got rid of bed bugs within a month, in May 2008, using integrated pest management and a DE solution as explained in my thread on this website http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/four-months-bite-free-steps-taken#post-35316.
I did not use a PCO. I isolated my bed, as explained in my thread, so, by taking the precautions explained in my posting and by the grace of God, slept bite-free. I did not need to spray a ring of pesticide around my bed.
It is now over one-year since I got rid of the bugs and I still live in the same apartment. I thought I would share this with you in case you found it helpful. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 15:43:48
#
Login to Send PM
Hey Jeanette,
I just read over your thread....and that is awesome what you did with your self-treatment regime. Well done. Just proves self-treatment really does work....and in many different forms. Yours is definately different than mine, yet we are both acheiving the same results.
I noticed a couple tree-huggers/alarmists were bashing you, but for the most part, everyone was very encouraged. The ones who were NOT, would never be satisfied unless you were treating bb's with lollypops and lemonaid, lol. Some of them remind me of the people in the Sierra Club....for whom I have absolutely no respect for whatsover. They cause more harm than they do good. Anyway, I better not get started on the Sierra Club. A bunch of unemployed, ambulance chasing bums!
Thanks again for sending me the link to your story,
I'm going to be entering 7-weeks bb free. A ways to go to catch up to you....but I have no doubt now that I will :)
-
Gina
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 22
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 17:18:31
#
Login to Send PM
Congrats Jason! I'm glad you found something that works! I've heard of the product you used i may buy it as well just to be safe :)
-
spideyjg
oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,405
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 17:50:37
#
Login to Send PM
Jason1 - 1 hour ago »
I noticed a couple tree-huggers/alarmists were bashing you, but for the most part, everyone was very encouraged. The ones who were NOT, would never be satisfied unless you were treating bb's with lollypops and lemonaid, lol. Some of them remind me of the people in the Sierra Club....for whom I have absolutely no respect for whatsover. They cause more harm than they do good.
*facepalm* Did you even read and understand the point of my debates in that thread?
Point #1 Tell you what find a study that contradicts the CDC and OSHA on amorphous silica that proves it is not an inhalation hazard and I'll STFU about the factual hazards. Which part of get a freaking P-100 respirator if you are gonna use DE is confusing! Get a respirator and dust away!
Point #2 WTF doesn't make sense about how questioning the efficacy of wet DE over dry DE is tree hugging? What part of the idea of mixing 2 inert ingredients that have no pesticide properties with DE and reduce the penetration of the DE into cracks and crevices and at the same time coat the DE with something that potentially can reduce the abrasive nature of it make it lollipops and lemonade?!
Dude! I crawled on my hands an knees for days, inch by inch, bellows duster in hand, respirator on my face, headlamp on my head, dusting and sealing every crack as part of my post PCO treatment.
I have said over and over, right product, right application location/and method, and proper safety precautions! Take the fight to the freaking bugs but don't harm yourself!
You cannot take it to them unless you know their habits and nature. Once you do, you can find them and F them up. Spray and pray be it from a hack PCO or in self treatment is a losing gamble.
Jim
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 19:07:38
#
Login to Send PM
I wasn't responding re: your post(s) so calm down.
You're right about this....""right product, right application location/and method""
I agree, and that is exactly what Jeanette, myself, and many others, who are acheiving great "success"....are doing.
Obviously not ALL self treatment is a success, and safe, we all know that....but many are.
I can't comment on what you said regarding DE, because quite frankly I know very little about the product. I didn't need it in my treatment regime. But then again, I didn't try it, so who knows, maybe it would have helped.
spideyjg - 1 hour ago »
Jason1 - 1 hour ago »
I noticed a couple tree-huggers/alarmists were bashing you, but for the most part, everyone was very encouraged. The ones who were NOT, would never be satisfied unless you were treating bb's with lollypops and lemonaid, lol. Some of them remind me of the people in the Sierra Club....for whom I have absolutely no respect for whatsover. They cause more harm than they do good.*facepalm* Did you even read and understand the point of my debates in that thread?
Point #1 Tell you what find a study that contradicts the CDC and OSHA on amorphous silica that proves it is not an inhalation hazard and I'll STFU about the factual hazards. Which part of get a freaking P-100 respirator if you are gonna use DE is confusing! Get a respirator and dust away!
Point #2 WTF doesn't make sense about how questioning the efficacy of wet DE over dry DE is tree hugging? What part of the idea of mixing 2 inert ingredients that have no pesticide properties with DE and reduce the penetration of the DE into cracks and crevices and at the same time coat the DE with something that potentially can reduce the abrasive nature of it make it lollipops and lemonade?!
Dude! I crawled on my hands an knees for days, inch by inch, bellows duster in hand, respirator on my face, headlamp on my head, dusting and sealing every crack as part of my post PCO treatment.
I have said over and over, right product, right application location/and method, and proper safety precautions! Take the fight to the freaking bugs but don't harm yourself!
You cannot take it to them unless you know their habits and nature. Once you do, you can find them and F them up. Spray and pray be it from a hack PCO or in self treatment is a losing gamble.
Jim -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 19:14:21
#
Login to Send PM
Thank you, Gina.
Do you currently have an infestaion, or think you may?
Gina - 1 hour ago »
Congrats Jason! I'm glad you found something that works! I've heard of the product you used i may buy it as well just to be safe :) -
Badwolf
newbite
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 31
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 19:51:57
#
Login to Send PM
Gina - The product Jason used is the Canadian version. It's a much 'milder' chemical than the one used in the US version of the product. Be careful with the US version of the Ortho, as PCO's on here have stated that the chemical needs to be handled very carefully.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 22 2009 20:54:45
#
Login to Send PM
Good point, Badwolf.
While both products seem to acheive pretty much identical results (from people who have reported back on this thread) you may want to take extra care with the US version, if you are from the US. The US version contains BIF, while the canadian version does not.
Badwolf - 56 minutes ago »
Gina - The product Jason used is the Canadian version. It's a much 'milder' chemical than the one used in the US version of the product. Be careful with the US version of the Ortho, as PCO's on here have stated that the chemical needs to be handled very carefully. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 6:17:53
#
Login to Send PM
2nd PCO treatment didn't take place, an emergency dentist appointment became the priority. I actually had to debate with myself for a while "do I take the only available appointment or do I suffer through the pain and have the pco visit?" New PCO appointment scheduled for Tuesday. I found what I thought to be at least four more bb cast skins while going through the items in my bedroom. I took a picture but couldn't figure out how to upload them on the site. I checked out BBcouk image gallery and the "cast skins" that I found did not look like his pictures at all. Good news yes, but now I still have to find their hiding place.
-
I took a picture but couldn't figure out how to upload them on the site.
Upload the pics on a free hosting like imageshack, tinypics or similars, Then link them here.
If you have problems can send me them at helpme@pest2000.it and I will publish them. -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 15:15:43
#
Login to Send PM
Not sure what's worse, having to see the dentist....or bb's, lol.
But considering you were in a great deal of pain, you made the right decision.
BBsonme - 8 hours ago »
2nd PCO treatment didn't take place, an emergency dentist appointment became the priority. I actually had to debate with myself for a while "do I take the only available appointment or do I suffer through the pain and have the pco visit?" New PCO appointment scheduled for Tuesday. I found what I thought to be at least four more bb cast skins while going through the items in my bedroom. I took a picture but couldn't figure out how to upload them on the site. I checked out BBcouk image gallery and the "cast skins" that I found did not look like his pictures at all. Good news yes, but now I still have to find their hiding place. -
LJ
junior member
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 57
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 17:47:27
#
Login to Send PM
Hello to All :)
Its been a very long time since I've visited Bedbugger and I'm smiling to see some of the familiar old "faces" here, like seeing friends again. I opted out of coming here so often because I tend to be a bit ocd and had to put on the brakes for my own good! It is eminently healthy and advisable to think about other things too! I've gotten the buggers back again since I last posted but feel resigned to a management approach rather than elimination because I live in a building in which they are endemic.
Having said that, however, I've never even squished one in my bed. I'm ocd, remember - lmao! My daughter and the pco swear I must find the first one that crawls in. I shudder when I read about how some people have suffered with such extensive infestations.
Sorry for my long-winded prologue. Down to the business at hand in this thread: Long Term Safety. When our state-sanctioned regulatory bodies of any country put the seal of approval and restrictions on use upon anything for human consumption be it drugs, pesticides, herbicides, spermicides or a multitude of other things the process for that approval is often long and laborious with good reasons that we can all appreciate and understand.
But we must remember that even what has been approved for use is sometimes not actually safe in the true sense of the words "long term."
In many cases what has happened is that after animal trials, human trials, wide-spread use, and the passing of 20, 30, 40 years or more a connection is made between some deleterious or even dangerous & deadly effect and a previously deemed safe product. It happens all the time. And I'm not overstating anything or being zealously reactionary. Just the obvious facts.
No, I'm not a chemist, pco, or anyone else like that. I'm just a social worker and like to imagine myself a fairly well-read person when I flatter myself - grinz. I don't want to preach to anyone, but just remind people that they should inject a healthy dose of common-sense and critical skepticism into their decisions with this stuff.
Remember thalidomide and human babies with flippers? DES (diethylstilbestrol) and little girls who often grew up sterile and also to have virulent reproductive cancers? The initial safe standard of reaction to radiation from a variety of sources and the gamut of cancers connected to them many years later? DDT and the extinction/near extinction of many species of birds because their eggshells softened to the point of making them unviable, including the stunning Peregrine Falcon? The therapeutic use of Prozac and the sudden appearance of suicides, particularly among the juvenile population? Simple phosphates inhibiting the growth of some aquatic plants and boosting algae to the point of smothering what was left, killing entire lakes? You could all add to this list, you know you can.
"Long term" is a relative phrase. It can only mean "based upon the studies and information we've accumulated to date" and thats no guarantee of anything.
Just me asking that you all exercise due diligence for your own safety, thats all.
Continued good luck in your battles with the buggers!
Jill
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 18:49:29
#
Login to Send PM
null[url=http://img190.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbpics001.jpg][/url]<img src="http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7199/bbpics001.th.jpg" border="0"/><img src="http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1774/bbcast1.th.jpg" border="0"/>
I've made a few attempts to upload the link. I'm not the most computer savy so I hope it works. Otherwise, I will e-mail it. The picture of casts is what I found in a shoe box under my bed. The picture labeled bbpics are eggs that I found in my bathroom trash can.
-
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 19:25:54
#
Login to Send PM
Okay, I tried posting my pictures here but something went wrong. Not only did my link not post, the whole thing was gone. EffeCi I will e-mail them to you directly; perhaps you can post them. As I explained in the missing post. The pic labeled bb casts are the things I think were casts found in shoe boxes. The other labeled bb pic I found this evening in my bathroom trash can. There were lots of eggs, I put the whole trash can in a big zip lock bag, contractor bag and then put it in my garbage can out on the trash. I pulled a few of the eggs off with masking tape. I pour 91% alcohol on the eggs and shot the pic. After I got up the nerve I went back to the trash and pulled out a piece of paper that had some eggs attached to them. Those I put in a small zip lock bag. (my boyfriends suggestion) to save for the PCO and also see what they become when they hatch. I had gnats in my bathroom trash last week but sprayed the dish soap/alcohol mixture on them and they died off.
-
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 19:31:34
#
Login to Send PM
Hello Jill, nice post!
Sorry to hear the creeps are back.
If I may ask, since I wasn't here when you first had the problem.....how did you rid yourself of them? Pco's, self treatment, or a combination of the two?
It's always interesting to see what others are doing.
I suppose I could just look at your posting history, but i'm too lazy....that and the fact I too have mild OCD....and may hit the link buttons multiple times :)
LJ - 1 hour ago »
Hello to All :)
Its been a very long time since I've visited Bedbugger and I'm smiling to see some of the familiar old "faces" here, like seeing friends again. I opted out of coming here so often because I tend to be a bit ocd and had to put on the brakes for my own good! It is eminently healthy and advisable to think about other things too! I've gotten the buggers back again since I last posted but feel resigned to a management approach rather than elimination because I live in a building in which they are endemic.
Having said that, however, I've never even squished one in my bed. I'm ocd, remember - lmao! My daughter and the pco swear I must find the first one that crawls in. I shudder when I read about how some people have suffered with such extensive infestations.
Sorry for my long-winded prologue. Down to the business at hand in this thread: Long Term Safety. When our state-sanctioned regulatory bodies of any country put the seal of approval and restrictions on use upon anything for human consumption be it drugs, pesticides, herbicides, spermicides or a multitude of other things the process for that approval is often long and laborious with good reasons that we can all appreciate and understand.
But we must remember that even what has been approved for use is sometimes not actually safe in the true sense of the words "long term."
In many cases what has happened is that after animal trials, human trials, wide-spread use, and the passing of 20, 30, 40 years or more a connection is made between some deleterious or even dangerous & deadly effect and a previously deemed safe product. It happens all the time. And I'm not overstating anything or being zealously reactionary. Just the obvious facts.
No, I'm not a chemist, pco, or anyone else like that. I'm just a social worker and like to imagine myself a fairly well-read person when I flatter myself - grinz. I don't want to preach to anyone, but just remind people that they should inject a healthy dose of common-sense and critical skepticism into their decisions with this stuff.
Remember thalidomide and human babies with flippers? DES (diethylstilbestrol) and little girls who often grew up sterile and also to have virulent reproductive cancers? The initial safe standard of reaction to radiation from a variety of sources and the gamut of cancers connected to them many years later? DDT and the extinction/near extinction of many species of birds because their eggshells softened to the point of making them unviable, including the stunning Peregrine Falcon? The therapeutic use of Prozac and the sudden appearance of suicides, particularly among the juvenile population? Simple phosphates inhibiting the growth of some aquatic plants and boosting algae to the point of smothering what was left, killing entire lakes? You could all add to this list, you know you can.
"Long term" is a relative phrase. It can only mean "based upon the studies and information we've accumulated to date" and thats no guarantee of anything.
Just me asking that you all exercise due diligence for your own safety, thats all.
Continued good luck in your battles with the buggers!
Jill -
Jason1
banned
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 19:39:26
#
Login to Send PM
BB, it's probably the spam filter thingy....the entire post will not show up. But will likely later.
BBsonme - 12 minutes ago »
Okay, I tried posting my pictures here but something went wrong. Not only did my link not post, the whole thing was gone. EffeCi I will e-mail them to you directly; perhaps you can post them. As I explained in the missing post. The pic labeled bb casts are the things I think were casts found in shoe boxes. The other labeled bb pic I found this evening in my bathroom trash can. There were lots of eggs, I put the whole trash can in a big zip lock bag, contractor bag and then put it in my garbage can out on the trash. I pulled a few of the eggs off with masking tape. I pour 91% alcohol on the eggs and shot the pic. After I got up the nerve I went back to the trash and pulled out a piece of paper that had some eggs attached to them. Those I put in a small zip lock bag. (my boyfriends suggestion) to save for the PCO and also see what they become when they hatch. I had gnats in my bathroom trash last week but sprayed the dish soap/alcohol mixture on them and they died off. -
BBsonme
junior member
Joined: May '09
Posts: 50
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 23 2009 20:39:25
#
Login to Send PM
My eggs are hatching!!!!
I am totally, completely, skeeved out now. They have gone from a hard tan colored thing to a whitish colored thingy that sort of moves around like a worm. I cannot hold on to these things. I will go CRAZY. Gotta get in the shower.
Ewww!!
Reply »
You must log in to post.
