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Finally something works!! [Ortho Home Defense Max]

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  1. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Jun 15 2009 20:20:19
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    First of all, i'm new here, so hello. I live in Vancouver, BC.
    Iv'e had bedbugs since last last August/September, first starting out very mild, not
    many at all....with bites a couple times a week. However, it progressively got worse, especially the last 4 or 5 months. Multiple bites every night, including the nights the pest control people sprayed. Lack of sleep (2-3 hours per night) paranoia, etc, etc, you all know what i'm talking about i'm sure. Anyway, i've never tried an OTC product because I kept thinking pest control would eventually take care of the problem....but it wasn't. Last week I was told by a clerk in a hardware store to try "Ortho Home Defense Max". He said it's worked for people in the past, even though it's not listed for Bed Bug elimination....but does have permethrin as an active ingredient, which is what the sprayers use in Dragnet. At this point I was willing to try just about anything, so decided to give it a go. Bought it Friday....sprayed cracks/crevices, floor boards, under counters, closets, etc. Also sprayed around my bed, as a barrier, so the bugs hopefully wouldn't cross. It's now Monday.....and I havn't been biten, not once, in the last 3 nights since I used the product....after being biten every night for the last several months. I sprayed around my bed all 3 nights, to make sure....but only once in the other locations. Now i'm not saying this will work for EVERYONE....and I do still see the damn bed bugs crawling around....but not nearly as many as before, and the most important thing for me.....they won't cross the bed barrier to bite me. What I don't know, is, will they try when they get really hungry....and if they do, will the barrier hold? It definately kills the bb's on contact....so I can only hope it kills them when they eventually get desperate/hungry enough and try crawling through it. Also, it's pretty sticky, so maybe that will help too. Anyway, just wanted to let others know in case anyone else wants to try it. So far so good, for me anyway!

  2. DragonFlight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Jun 15 2009 20:40:53
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    Hey give me a follow up on this, I saw this when I was picking up Scotts EcoSense the other day. Give me a 7-14 day follow up, maybe you hit some gold

  3. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Jun 15 2009 21:22:55
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    Will do!

    DragonFlight - 41 minutes ago  » 
    Hey give me a follow up on this, I saw this when I was picking up Scotts EcoSense the other day. Give me a 7-14 day follow up, maybe you hit some gold

  4. DragonFlight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Mon Jun 15 2009 23:27:46
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    Don't forget. Either respond to this thread or private message me or both.

  5. bugoff_1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Jun 16 2009 14:24:39
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    PLEASE respond to this thread! I'm curious too. Good luck

  6. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Jun 16 2009 22:26:11
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    Still no bites. That's 4 nights in a row now, after, as I mentioned before, getting bitten every night for several months. I'm continuing to spray evey night.....around the bed, isolating it completely. The only way the bb's can get to me is by crossing the barrier....and so far, they arn't. I think after this week, i'm gonna start spraying around the bed every 2-3 days, rather than everyday.....and see what happens. I'm just not sure how strong this stuff is if it's not applied daily. Maybe it doesn't need to be applied daily, just don't know yet....but i'll find out if they start attacking me again!

  7. DangerousDave

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Tue Jun 16 2009 22:43:01
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    Are you finding any dead bugs around the bed or in the ring of death?

  8. lil_bit_obsessed

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 0:39:26
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    please please be careful. i hope you are using a respirator and gloves. pesticide toxicity can build over time, and it is easy to spray much more than is necessary when you are feeling desperate. i also hope that you aren't treating the bed/mattress itself with this product, if it isn't registered for bb treatment? some pesticides are not safe for coming into close contact with skin...

  9. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 0:46:34
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    A couple, not many. But yea, a few every night are attemping to cross....and getting nuked in the process. This is why i'm so encouraged. It would be nice if they would ALL try to cross. This way i'd get rid of most, if not all of them. It seems as if most are probably just turning around once they hit the barrier surrounding my bed....except I guess for the ones that are really desperate/hungry. I don't know how long this will work, considering bb's can go without food for up to 18 months.....but if i have to do this for 18 months, I will. As far as i'm concerned....PCO has been "useless", at least they have been for me, and i'm only speaking for myself. I'm sure they have helped others. Whenever i've asked these guys questions relating to my bb situation, when they've been here, it's like they are reading directly out of the damn handbook they were given by their bosses when they were hired, or told what to say by their bosses. For example, they told me NOT to do what i'm doing regarding this particular type of isolation and barrier around my bed. They gave me some stupid, flimsy excuse why it "could" make matters worse. WORSE?????? are you freaking kidding me?? it couldn't get any worse....and the fact of the matter is.....things are better in the last 5 days than they EVER were in the past several months, as i'm no longer getting bb's crawling all over me and getting bitten. And so far it has cost me less than 20 bucks. There may be a reason who some PCO's tell you NOT to use home/otc remedies. They don't make money if you do. But that's just my oppinion....but it seems pretty obvious to me.
    It's like the drug companies. Don't anyone try telling me their isn't a cure for the common cold, lol. We can put people on the moon, fly them into space, cure many diseases, make computers that think like humans.....yet.....we can't control a damn bug?
    Come on now!

    DangerousDave - 1 hour ago  » 
    Are you finding any dead bugs around the bed or in the ring of death?

  10. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 0:53:30
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    Thanks, I AM being careful. I'm not spraying at toxic levels. The amount of permethrin is 0.25%, far less than Dragnet.....and the other ingredients arn't harmful at the rate i'm using them. My windows are all open a minimum of 3-4 hours during/after application.
    No, nothing is going directly on my mattress/bed. Only on the floor surrounding it.
    Thank's for your concern....appreciate it!

    lil_bit_obsessed - 7 minutes ago  » 
    please please be careful. i hope you are using a respirator and gloves. pesticide toxicity can build over time, and it is easy to spray much more than is necessary when you are feeling desperate. i also hope that you aren't treating the bed/mattress itself with this product, if it isn't registered for bb treatment? some pesticides are not safe for coming into close contact with skin...

  11. TiredOfEm

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 3:40:31
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    Omg, i used to used that!! (first post btw)
    the ortho worked great when i had a heavy infestation of roaches.
    they were gone within a few days i believe
    I knew it was working because they no longer hid in dark corner or deep crevices..they ran to the corners of the ceiling to try and quickly rebuild as a last resort..no match for ortho lol.. but the spray says it works for 12 months or so bu back to the story...
    i had NO other types of bugs after using the whole gallon with the pull&spray nozzle.
    but this is where i messed up: i said that i was going to buy another gallon before winter so i can prepare for any intruders but i was soo impressed and relaxed by the results i forgot about it and bam, new intruders, the annoying bedbugs...hairdryers work really good (gun shaped ones) i get them out of my couch then put down white vinegar(they run away from that)but i dont know what else to do. Im thinking about buying a specific couch with legs so i can put super sticky rat traps under them. I might try ortho again.. but i need tons of advice (as much as i can get)

  12. DragonFlight

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 10:21:46
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    Jason, follow up on that, you're already on the forth day, that is good. As you mentioned spray every 2-3 days see if this works if you have to apply it every day then the product will loose hope. If you can spray every 2-3 days and it's still effective then within the 14 day trial as I mentioned, near the end you'll have to turn those last 2-3 days into spraying every 2-3 days. If that is effective you're going to have to extend that 14 day trial with another 14 days added on only after the first 14 days spray it every 7 for the remainder 14 days, then if that works then the product looks very promising.

  13. cilecto

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 17:13:17
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    I've seen these at Home Depot and advertised on TV. Wonder how they achieve a one-year residual...

    Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night...
    - Psalms 91:5-7

    (Not an pro)
  14. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 17:31:18
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    Well, I would say try it again....I mean, why not? As you said, it worked great on the other critters you had, like the cockroaches.....and as you've read in my posts, it seems to work on bb's. 5 night now without a single bite. I've also noticed a reduction in the number of bb's seen crawling on the floor, ceiling, walls, etc. A big reduction actually. That is because not only do I use it as a barrier around my bed, iv'e also been spraying cracks, crevices, and all the other usual suspects.
    I'm glad this is working....because I was about ready to purchase some DDT on the black market. That I KNOW works, lol.

    TiredOfEm - 13 hours ago  » 
    Omg, i used to used that!! (first post btw)
    the ortho worked great when i had a heavy infestation of roaches.
    they were gone within a few days i believe
    I knew it was working because they no longer hid in dark corner or deep crevices..they ran to the corners of the ceiling to try and quickly rebuild as a last resort..no match for ortho lol.. but the spray says it works for 12 months or so bu back to the story...
    i had NO other types of bugs after using the whole gallon with the pull&spray nozzle.
    but this is where i messed up: i said that i was going to buy another gallon before winter so i can prepare for any intruders but i was soo impressed and relaxed by the results i forgot about it and bam, new intruders, the annoying bedbugs...hairdryers work really good (gun shaped ones) i get them out of my couch then put down white vinegar(they run away from that)but i dont know what else to do. Im thinking about buying a specific couch with legs so i can put super sticky rat traps under them. I might try ortho again.. but i need tons of advice (as much as i can get)

  15. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 17:38:53
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    I will for sure, thanks. Good idea re the 14 days, etc.

    DragonFlight - 7 hours ago  » 
    Jason, follow up on that, you're already on the forth day, that is good. As you mentioned spray every 2-3 days see if this works if you have to apply it every day then the product will loose hope. If you can spray every 2-3 days and it's still effective then within the 14 day trial as I mentioned, near the end you'll have to turn those last 2-3 days into spraying every 2-3 days. If that is effective you're going to have to extend that 14 day trial with another 14 days added on only after the first 14 days spray it every 7 for the remainder 14 days, then if that works then the product looks very promising.

  16. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 17:45:40
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    I would'nt think the residual thing applies to bb's....since they arn't even listed on the product as one of the critters Ortho is recommended for. All I know is that it WORKS, at least it does for me. 5 nights now, not a single bite. As noted above....I will follow-up during, and after, the 14-day trial....especially after, when I will no longer be spraying everyday. Will see if it's still as effective as it is now. Fingers crossed!

    cilecto - 26 minutes ago  » 
    I've seen these at Home Depot and advertised on TV. Wonder how they achieve a one-year residual...

  17. TiredOfEm

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 19:02:17
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    Alright Jason, let's do this and get rid of these pests... I'll get some tomorrow, hell, ill get two to make sure these pests dont come back into my life... I also heard that bio powders work (makes them stupid) and maybe the ortho and the powder can work together and make them come out of their hiding spots and into the ortho...

    pls keep us updated, this is good news as they are rising here in NYC

  18. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 20:29:43
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    Good luck, hope it works out for you like it has for me, so far. I bought the 2 litre as it has an applicator gun with it. Just makes it easier, with two spray swipes; one wide, the other narrow. Also comes in 5 litres. There is a one litre, but doesn't come with a gun. The 2 litre is 17.95, while the 5 litre....if i remember correctly....is around 30.00. Probably cheaper in the USA.

    TiredOfEm - 1 hour ago  » 
    Alright Jason, let's do this and get rid of these pests... I'll get some tomorrow, hell, ill get two to make sure these pests dont come back into my life... I also heard that bio powders work (makes them stupid) and maybe the ortho and the powder can work together and make them come out of their hiding spots and into the ortho...
    pls keep us updated, this is good news as they are rising here in NYC

  19. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 20:46:05
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    Jason1 - 19 hours ago  » 
    There may be a reason who some PCO's tell you NOT to use home/otc remedies. They don't make money if you do. But that's just my oppinion....but it seems pretty obvious to me.

    Actually, some of us are not PCOs and make no money by suggesting one and yet still would tell you that someone with experience in finding and killing bed bugs is probably going to be able to get them and kill them more quickly, and more thoroughly, and will be able to avoid spreading them, making them worse, or causing health problems.

    It's not that it's never possible to do your own pest control, but there are a lot of GOOD reasons it's not the best idea for most people where bed bugs are concerned.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  20. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 20:49:02
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    We have a FAQ also which goes into some of the issues you should think about when considering doing your own treatment.

  21. TiredOfEm

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 20:52:13
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    we only have the one gallon around my way for $7.98(that comes with the gun) so ill stock up since its cheaper than last year.. And what's amazing is that i dosen't have the bad chemical smell that makes most sneeze, just a mild scent that my nose rarely picks up..

  22. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 21:31:45
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    I understand what you're saying....but for ME, self-treatment is the ONLY thing that has actually worked. Pest control has been coming for several months....with very minimal success. Matter of fact....NO success when it comes to the bites. Every night, bitten, even during the day sometimes. I find it odd how I can come home, 6 hours after spraying....and STILL see the damn things crawling around. Sorry, but that just seems messed up to me. Iv'e heard all the excuses under the sun for this....but I don't buy most of them. No, i'm not a bug technician, didn't go to school at Harvard or whatever to learn how to kill bugs. All I know is that iv'e found something that's working, which is far more than what anyone else has accomplished in many months. So i'm gonna go with it, as long as it continues to "work". As far as health issues....i'm careful. Most of the ingredients are pretty mild....and the permethrin is only 0.025%.

    Nobugsonme - 29 minutes ago  » 
    We have a FAQ also which goes into some of the issues you should think about when considering doing your own treatment.

  23. bbsbegone

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 21:32:57
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    tiredofem and jason1 sound like tv commercials for ortho.

  24. TiredOfEm

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 21:40:00
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    lol >.<

    bbsbegone - 5 minutes ago  » 
    tiredofem and jason1 sound like tv commercials for ortho.

  25. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
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    It may not be a good idea for "some" people to self-treat....but for me, it's the ONLY thing that has worked in almost a year of being bitten on a daily/nightly basis. It's a lot more than what pest control has been able to accomplish. Even they admit they know very little about bb's. So until they can come up with something that actually WORKS....rather than draining my bank account....self-treatment is the way i'm going.
    Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, and NOT claiming you're all incompetent, but my experience with two seperate companies has not been good.
    As for health issues....most of the ingredients are pretty mild, and the permethrin is minimal @ just 0.025%. Now, if I can just figure out a way to get the damn things out of my laptop

    Nobugsonme - 1 hour ago  » 

    Jason1 - 19 hours ago  » 
    There may be a reason who some PCO's tell you NOT to use home/otc remedies. They don't make money if you do. But that's just my oppinion....but it seems pretty obvious to me.

    Actually, some of us are not PCOs and make no money by suggesting one and yet still would tell you that someone with experience in finding and killing bed bugs is probably going to be able to get them and kill them more quickly, and more thoroughly, and will be able to avoid spreading them, making them worse, or causing health problems.
    It's not that it's never possible to do your own pest control, but there are a lot of GOOD reasons it's not the best idea for most people where bed bugs are concerned.

  26. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Wed Jun 17 2009 21:48:11
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    Bite me!

    bbsbegone - 14 minutes ago  » 
    tiredofem and jason1 sound like tv commercials for ortho.

  27. TiredOfEm

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    if you could take apart your laptop, use a blow dryer (my personal fav for bbs in small places). it only takes a couple of seconds on its highest setting to kill em..or you can use a vacuum to get them out. a prof. told me its no worries once they're in the bag

  28. Nobugsonme

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    Jason1 - 3 hours ago  » 
    for me, it's the ONLY thing that has worked in almost a year of being bitten on a daily/nightly basis. It's a lot more than what pest control has been able to accomplish. Even they admit they know very little about bb's. So until they can come up with something that actually WORKS....rather than draining my bank account....self-treatment is the way i'm going.
    Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, and NOT claiming you're all incompetent, but my experience with two seperate companies has not been good.

    You're basically saying your company hired a lousy PCO, they did not get the job done -- which may have been as much about which units the owner paid them/allowed them to treat, as much as anything else, though we do not know. (Of course, if attached units with bed bugs are the problem, self-treatment probably won't succeed either, at least not without a lot of successful caulking and other sealing methods.)

    It may also be your PCO was not knowledgeable. Obviously, incompetent PCOs are not what I am recommending.

    Bed bugs are widely becoming resistant to pyrethroid insecticides. For this reason, my understanding is that a knowledgeable PCO will usually use a combination of steam and/or dusts and/or various pesticides, and not simply a pyrethroid on its own.

    In saying this, I am not suggesting you run out and start putting down a lot of other stuff. I am not a PCO and not qualified to recommend a course of treatment, and frankly, I don't think people should be giving or getting advice about pesticide use from strangers on the internet.

    My point is that it is not always a simple thing to kill bed bugs. I wish you well and I am glad you are taking precautions.

  29. Nobugsonme

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    TiredOfEm - 3 hours ago  » 
    ...or you can use a vacuum to get them out. a prof. told me its no worries once they're in the bag

    But remember that you have to immediately remove that vacuum bag, seal it in an airtight plastic bag, and throw it away.

  30. Jason1

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    Thanks for your comments. You're right, killing bb's definately isn't as simple as it SHOULD be. I just can't believe, in 2009, with everything we are able to accomplish.....yet we can't come up with a sollution for bed bugs??

    The main problem I suppose is because they don't carry disease, they arn't considered a threat....so not much is being done in the way of R&D. I'm a little skeptical about the disease aspect though. I mean, really, I don't see any reason why they "couldn't" carry desease from human to human....when other similar critters can?

    I saw recently on the news there was a big bed bug convention in the USA. Wonder what, if anything, came out of it?

    Nobugsonme - 13 hours ago  » 

    Jason1 - 3 hours ago  » 
    for me, it's the ONLY thing that has worked in almost a year of being bitten on a daily/nightly basis. It's a lot more than what pest control has been able to accomplish. Even they admit they know very little about bb's. So until they can come up with something that actually WORKS....rather than draining my bank account....self-treatment is the way i'm going.
    Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, and NOT claiming you're all incompetent, but my experience with two seperate companies has not been good.

    You're basically saying your company hired a lousy PCO, they did not get the job done -- which may have been as much about which units the owner paid them/allowed them to treat, as much as anything else, though we do not know. (Of course, if attached units with bed bugs are the problem, self-treatment probably won't succeed either, at least not without a lot of successful caulking and other sealing methods.)
    It may also be your PCO was not knowledgeable. Obviously, incompetent PCOs are not what I am recommending.
    Bed bugs are widely becoming resistant to pyrethroid insecticides. For this reason, my understanding is that a knowledgeable PCO will usually use a combination of steam and/or dusts and/or various pesticides, and not simply a pyrethroid on its own.
    In saying this, I am not suggesting you run out and start putting down a lot of other stuff. I am not a PCO and not qualified to recommend a course of treatment, and frankly, I don't think people should be giving or getting advice about pesticide use from strangers on the internet.
    My point is that it is not always a simple thing to kill bed bugs. I wish you well and I am glad you are taking precautions.

  31. Jason1

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    OMG I don't want to have to take my laptop apart. Eeeeek! I was hoping the heat from leaving it running all the time would kill the little b@stards....but no!

    I wonder what would happen if I put the laptop in the freezer for a few days? Freezing kills bb's....but I don't suspect the freezing, then subsequent thawing/moisure would be a good thing for the guts of the computer!

    Damn, BRING BACK DDT!!!! It's the only thing that was 100% effective in killing bb's. Besides, it's a proven fact we use things on a daily basis, far worse than what DDT ever was. Everything these days causes cancer it seems. I'll take the risk to get rid of these vermin!!

    TiredOfEm - 16 hours ago  » 
    if you could take apart your laptop, use a blow dryer (my personal fav for bbs in small places). it only takes a couple of seconds on its highest setting to kill em..or you can use a vacuum to get them out. a prof. told me its no worries once they're in the bag

  32. buggyinsocal

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    Jason1,

    I just posted a long response in another thread about why DDT is not, in fact, the panacea people want to make it out to be.

    I understand how frustrating dealing with bed bugs can be. I vividly remember the desperation I felt when I had them. However, we're unlikely to find any single magic bullet to treat bed bugs.

    Rather than retype or repost the whole thing, I'm just going to link to the response I left there.

    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/super-gone-with-ddvp

    The only thing to point out is what one of the PCOs did. DDVP strips are only labeled for use in unoccupied areas or areas occupied for less than 4 hours a day.

  33. cilecto

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    Jason1 - 1 hour ago  » 
    OMG I don't want to have to take my laptop apart. Eeeeek! I was hoping the heat from leaving it running all the time would kill the little b@stards....but no!
    I wonder what would happen if I put the laptop in the freezer for a few days? Freezing kills bb's....but I don't suspect the freezing, then subsequent thawing/moisure would be a good thing for the guts of the computer!

    Yeah, I'd be wary of freezing the laptop. Moisture could wreck it, as may the cold. Your screen is a "liquid" crystal, after all. Besides, a household freezer is not universally viewed as effective. There are fumigation places that take individual items. Some people have advised to bag it with a pest strip, others warn that the DDVP will corrode the electronics. A PCO I spoke with recommends bagging with mothballs (there are two different types, all with caviats and warnings). If you do mothball indoors, I recommend the 5 gallon plastic utility buckets sold at the big home centers. Pretty airtight and odor tight.

    If you're treating the home, I'd expect that while bugs may enter your machine, they'll eventually come out to eat or hang out elsewhere and be poisoned or intercepted by you.

    Finally, if you have a IBM or Lenovo machine, you're in luck...their support websites include detailed step-by step instructions for dismantling the equipment.

  34. TiredOfEm

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    well jason... theres some computer programs that let you benchmark your laptop and tell you what temperature its on.. I used to do it for fun when i had 4 gigs in my latitude D620 and it got PRETTY hot. The laptop still works and is bb free. (i never knew they can get into the laptop o.0 well hey, i guess not all bbs are the same..)try prime http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=103 its supposedly a torture test that you can run overnight that might scare them

  35. selfishself

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    I really wish they had this in Costa Rica. I am in major trouble down here with bed bugs!! Glad you got your issue resolved.

    - Dyan

  36. DragonFlight

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    Jason1 - How is that coming along with the spray ? What is the progress ?

  37. Jason1

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    Thanks, i'll check out that link over the weekend when I have more time.

    Interesting reading!

    buggyinsocal - 1 day ago  » 
    Jason1,
    I just posted a long response in another thread about why DDT is not, in fact, the panacea people want to make it out to be.
    I understand how frustrating dealing with bed bugs can be. I vividly remember the desperation I felt when I had them. However, we're unlikely to find any single magic bullet to treat bed bugs.
    Rather than retype or repost the whole thing, I'm just going to link to the response I left there.
    http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/super-gone-with-ddvp
    The only thing to point out is what one of the PCOs did. DDVP strips are only labeled for use in unoccupied areas or areas occupied for less than 4 hours a day.

  38. Jason1

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    I'm going to have to check out that "mothballs" thing. Sounds like it may be the way to go. I think I have quite a few bb's in my laptop as I see them everyday running around the keyboard, shortly after I begin typing.

    I saw on the news today they were talking about a "bb sauna" just opened up here in vancouver where I live. Sounds very interesting. I see an article posted on the front page of this website about it too!

    cilecto - 1 day ago  » 

    Jason1 - 1 hour ago  » 
    OMG I don't want to have to take my laptop apart. Eeeeek! I was hoping the heat from leaving it running all the time would kill the little b@stards....but no!
    I wonder what would happen if I put the laptop in the freezer for a few days? Freezing kills bb's....but I don't suspect the freezing, then subsequent thawing/moisure would be a good thing for the guts of the computer!

    Yeah, I'd be wary of freezing the laptop. Moisture could wreck it, as may the cold. Your screen is a "liquid" crystal, after all. Besides, a household freezer is not universally viewed as effective. There are fumigation places that take individual items. Some people have advised to bag it with a pest strip, others warn that the DDVP will corrode the electronics. A PCO I spoke with recommends bagging with mothballs (there are two different types, all with caviats and warnings). If you do mothball indoors, I recommend the 5 gallon plastic utility buckets sold at the big home centers. Pretty airtight and odor tight.
    If you're treating the home, I'd expect that while bugs may enter your machine, they'll eventually come out to eat or hang out elsewhere and be poisoned or intercepted by you.
    Finally, if you have a IBM or Lenovo machine, you're in luck...their support websites include detailed step-by step instructions for dismantling the equipment.

  39. Jason1

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    So far so good....although I did see a couple mid-sized bugs (2) at the foot of the bed, when I woke-up this morning.....during my usual "inspection", lol. I have a question....does anyone else do that? (the inspection) Maybe it's just my paranoia but I inspect my covers, sheets, pillow cases, mattress, etc, before I even get out of bed. I mean like a fine tooth comb! I'm pretty much obsessive about it.

    Anyway, like I said....I found 2 bedbugs, the first ones iv'e found in a week since I started the spraying. One was dead....but it didn't look like I killed it by rolling over on it or anything. I suspect it just made it to the bed before dying from the poison.
    The other one was almost dead....hardly moving. It didn't look like it was rolled over on either. Can usually tell when they've been squashed. And I had no bites.

    Starting Monday....i'm going to begin spraying every 2-3 days, rather than everyday. I'll report my findings as I have been.

    I still see bb's in other locations of my apartment....but their is definately a reduction since I started spraying, no doubt about it. Been using the spray in all the usual places, not just as a barrier/trap around my bed. What is yet to be determined is if Ortho is going to be the "complete" sollution.....I suspect not, but the fact i'm not getting "bitten" anymore, at least in bed, is part of the sollution....the biggest part for me, lol. Obviously I still have to get rid of them....and not sure if what i'm doing will accomplish that, but it's a good start.

    I shouldn't say i'm not getting bitten at all....i'm still getting the odd bite while using my laptop. I'm careful, but they are so damn small....they drop down on my leg(s), or get on my arms without my noticing....until the "itch". I'm one of the unlucky ones who is VERY sensitive to the itching. Drives me insane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    DragonFlight - 3 hours ago  » 
    Jason1 - How is that coming along with the spray ? What is the progress ?

  40. Jason1

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    Thanks, i'm gonna d/l that and see what happens!

    TiredOfEm - 17 hours ago  » 
    well jason... theres some computer programs that let you benchmark your laptop and tell you what temperature its on.. I used to do it for fun when i had 4 gigs in my latitude D620 and it got PRETTY hot. The laptop still works and is bb free. (i never knew they can get into the laptop o.0 well hey, i guess not all bbs are the same..)try prime http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=103 its supposedly a torture test that you can run overnight that might scare them

  41. Jason1

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    Keep looking, i'm sure they have "similar" products, if not the very same.

    Oh I wouldn't say the issue is "resolved" just yet. A long ways to go before I can say that! All I can say right now is that it's been very helpful.

    selfishself - 10 hours ago  » 
    I really wish they had this in Costa Rica. I am in major trouble down here with bed bugs!! Glad you got your issue resolved.
    - Dyan

  42. DragonFlight

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    From the reports, thus far the spray is killing them upon contact they seem to make it only so far before dying, so that means that they are all not avoiding the chemicals, some are but as you mentioned the ones that are desperate are crossing but are dying shortly after. How many days has it been thus far ? How many times did you spray so far in the past how many days ?

  43. sleepin tight

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    Jason 1

    Place your laptop in a bag with a Home Defense strip formerly known as Vapona, retail at about $12, not rated for bb but they work, active ingredient dichlorovos, moth ball will work too but your laptop will forever smell like them

  44. Jason1

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    Thanks. I think I saw those strips at the same place I bought the Home Defense Max, spray.

    sleepin tight - 1 day ago  » 
    Jason 1
    Place your laptop in a bag with a Home Defense strip formerly known as Vapona, retail at about $12, not rated for bb but they work, active ingredient dichlorovos, moth ball will work too but your laptop will forever smell like them

  45. Jason1

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    Today (Sunday) will be 10 nights. I've sprayed every night so far....but beginning tomorrow, i'm going to reduce it to every second night. Then, depending on what happens....I will reduce it further to every 3 nights. I'm hoping it will still be as effective spraying a couple times a week, as it is every day....since the residue remains, and it's very sticky. Who knows, maybe i'll be able to get away with spraying just once a week....or less. I just don's know yet untill these trials are complete.

    Still no bb bites during this time (in bed). Getting a few while using my laptop, unfortunately, as very small babies they are coming out of the keyboard, etc. I'll be addressing that issue this week!

    DragonFlight - 1 day ago  » 
    From the reports, thus far the spray is killing them upon contact they seem to make it only so far before dying, so that means that they are all not avoiding the chemicals, some are but as you mentioned the ones that are desperate are crossing but are dying shortly after. How many days has it been thus far ? How many times did you spray so far in the past how many days ?

  46. DeathToBBs

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    Would you kindly write what other things you are doing besides the spray and the other things you mentioned. Are you vacuuming like a madman, etc. Also, you might wanna try the liquid DE in conjunction with the Orthro. I think you can put your laptop on a table and then surround the laptop w/liquid DE and leave it on the table and any bbs that come out will cross the liquid DE and die. Here is the link for the liquid DE http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/four-months-bite-free-steps-taken#post-35316.

  47. lil_bit_obsessed

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    hi jason,

    just wondering why you're spraying every day if the product has a residual? i know i've stuck my nose in on this topic before, but i'm a bit worried about the amount of pesiticide exposure you're subjecting yourself to (and perhaps encouraging amongst others) with the daily sprayings. spraying much less often should still yield positive results.

    the msds for this product is available here:
    http://www.scottscanada.ca/index.cfm/event/ProductGuide.product/documentId/D03AD7A4B8FBCC50CD71086E074C6573

    also the scotts canada website specifically states that ortho home defence max should be used for spot treatments only when spraying indoors, and not as a broadly used spray. you can find that statement here: http://www.scottscanada.ca/index.cfm/event/media.detail/documentId/5f6800e8d60893c99eb6aeb3154f9557

  48. EffeCi

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    Wow... you're using a bifenthrin based insecticide in your home daily... that's great....

    from
    http://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/toxic/pyrethroid.htm

    Bifenthrin is an off-white to pale tan waxy solid, characterized by its slightly sweet smell. As a Restricted Use Pesticide, bifenthrin may only be purchased or applied by certified applicators or persons under the direct supervision of a certified applicator. EPA has registered bifenthrin for use on greenhouse ornamentals and cotton. Studies show bifenthrin to be relatively insoluble in water. Its half-life in soil can range anywhere from 7 days to 8 months depending on the soil type and the amount of air in the soil (ETN, Bifenthrin, 1995). Bifenthrin is one of a few synthetic pyrethroids that are relatively stable in direct sunlight. EPA has classified products containing bienthrin as toxicity class II (I = most toxic, IV = least toxic), and the word WARNING must appear on all product labels.

    Bifenthrin is moderately toxic to mammals when ingested (oral rat LD50 = 54 to 70 mg/kg), and like all pyrethroids affects the central nervous system. Symptoms of poisoning include incoordination, tremor, salivation, vomiting, diarrhea, and irritability to sound and touch (ETN Bifenthrin, 1995). Although bifenthrin does not cause inflammation or irritation on human skin, it can cause a tingling sensation, lasting about 12 hours. A study on laboratory mice shows that bifenthrin causes gene mutation in white blood cells (ETN, Bifenthrin, 1995). EPA classifies bifenthrin as a Class C (possible human) carcinogen (EPA, 1997). Of concern in the environment, bifenthrin is very highly toxic to fish, crustaceans, other aquatic animals and bees, and is moderately toxic to birds. Scientists are particularly concerned about possible bioaccumulation in birds.

  49. Fearful_and_Buggy

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    Sun Jun 21 2009 20:30:22
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    EffeCi - 4 minutes ago  » 
    Wow... you're using a bifenthrin based insecticide in your home daily... that's great....

    He's not ingesting the insecticide, which is the primary source of toxicity in these studies. According to the study, the lowest average lethal dose (LD50) is 54mg/kg. The average human male is 76 kg. He'd have to EAT (not spray) about 4.1grams of this poison every day in order to accumulate a toxic dose. That's quite a bit.

    Spraying it periodically and walking away is not going to do much damage. Spraying it every day, for many years, while remaining around it, WILL cause a problem. That's my interpretation and I've done some body chemistry in the past.

    I'm curious about how long I should put my laptop in with the Vapona. I can't do without it for a few months. Would a few days be okay?

  50. buggyinsocal

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    Sun Jun 21 2009 20:38:43
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    IIRC, Vapona is DDVP. DDVP is corrosive. It wouldn't be my first choice for treating electronics.

    In the other thread about your laptop, I see that you noted that the computer in question is a Mac.

    One option would be to head over to an Apple retail store and check to see if they would be willing to take the computer apart and inspect it. I know that Apple stores, esp. if you're still covered under AppleCare, will take apart and clean the inside of a laptop.

    It's pretty rare, actually, for there to be bed bugs in electronics. That's not to say it doesn't happen. It is to say that when it happens, which isn't that often, it usually happens in infestations that are pretty far along with a lot of bugs, which isn't what it sounds like yours is based on your posts.

    Also, while we're on the subject, you posted that you or your SO was getting small bites and you speculated that the small bites were from nymphs. There is a lot that we don't know conclusively about bed bugs. However, the research that we do have suggests that even though intuition tells us that you'd expect nymphs to produce smaller bites, that's not the case. There's video about here of an entomologist doing a bite test on people and the adult and nymph bites swelled up to the same size on the person.

    Hope some of that helps. I'll be curious to see what else people say about the laptops.

  51. Jason1

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    I hadn't thought about liquid DE, thanks. Worth maybe trying also.

    As for vacuuming....I don't vacuum as much as I probably should. I have a small apartment so usually just use a broom. The only vacuum I have is one of those mini-vacs. Like those you use in a car. Have to get down on my hands and knees, lol. Maybe it's time to invest in a decent vac if it's that important? Is the importance of a vacuum because of baby bb's and eggs hiding in areas on the floor?

    Other than the spraying....there really isn't much else i'm doing at this point, except for when pest control comes in!

    DeathToBBs - 59 minutes ago  » 
    Would you kindly write what other things you are doing besides the spray and the other things you mentioned. Are you vacuuming like a madman, etc. Also, you might wanna try the liquid DE in conjunction with the Orthro. I think you can put your laptop on a table and then surround the laptop w/liquid DE and leave it on the table and any bbs that come out will cross the liquid DE and die. Here is the link for the liquid DE http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/four-months-bite-free-steps-taken#post-35316.

  52. buggyinsocal

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    I would be very wary of using DE in a liquid suspension on a surface like a desk. After all, it's liquid when it's in suspension, but eventually the liquid is going to dry, at which point you'll have DE in dust form again which becomes an inhalation hazard. While using a liquid to get the DE into hard to reach places makes sense, the surface of a desk is hardly a hard to reach place and the dust DE left behind after it dries is likely to get kicked up pretty easily.

  53. Jason1

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    Yes, i'm probably spraying too much. Guess i'm just paranoid about having these damn bb's crawling all over me again. After going almost 10 nights without a single bite....I really don't want to go through that hell again!

    I will say, however, even though iv'e been spraying every night, I don't spray the floor until soaking wet, usually just a light to medium "film". Sometimes it's more on the wet side, but not soaking wet. Also, the windows are open several hours, even all night, after spraying....and I don't go to bed for at least 3-4 hours after I spray. So I am using precautions.

    Just the same, as noted above, I AM cutting back on the spraying pretty significantly beginning tomorrow. As you said....being that their is residue, the results should be the same. It's reasonable to think that, and it's what I hope for. I'll find out soon!

    I did see the recomendations, warnings, etc, Ortho lists in their documentation....but i'm pretty sure in some cases it's just a matter of covering their bases, for liability reasons. It's like that with everything. There are MANY examples of products on the market, that, if used EXACTLY how they tell you to use them, are almost useless, or I should say, far LESS useful. Combating bed bugs isn't even listed on the packaging as one of the pests Home Defense combats....yet 9 nights without bites tells me it works on them. And when I have used it to spray on any live ones iv'e seen....it's almost instant, dead!

    lil_bit_obsessed - 1 hour ago  » 
    hi jason,
    just wondering why you're spraying every day if the product has a residual? i know i've stuck my nose in on this topic before, but i'm a bit worried about the amount of pesiticide exposure you're subjecting yourself to (and perhaps encouraging amongst others) with the daily sprayings. spraying much less often should still yield positive results.
    the msds for this product is available here:
    http://www.scottscanada.ca/index.cfm/event/ProductGuide.product/documentId/D03AD7A4B8FBCC50CD71086E074C6573
    also the scotts canada website specifically states that ortho home defence max should be used for spot treatments only when spraying indoors, and not as a broadly used spray. you can find that statement here: http://www.scottscanada.ca/index.cfm/event/media.detail/documentId/5f6800e8d60893c99eb6aeb3154f9557

  54. Jason1

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    Sun Jun 21 2009 21:06:35
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    I guess i'm ok then because I don't have ANY of those symptoms!

    Like I said before, there is far worse used on a daily basis people think is perfectly fine.

    If the tree huggers didn't cry until DDT was banned....we most likely wouldn't have this problem. Although I know that's debatable. Seems damn near EVERYTHING causes cancer anyway!

    EffeCi - 37 minutes ago  » 
    Wow... you're using a bifenthrin based insecticide in your home daily... that's great....
    from
    http://www.beyondpesticides.org/infoservices/pesticidefactsheets/toxic/pyrethroid.htm

    Bifenthrin is an off-white to pale tan waxy solid, characterized by its slightly sweet smell. As a Restricted Use Pesticide, bifenthrin may only be purchased or applied by certified applicators or persons under the direct supervision of a certified applicator. EPA has registered bifenthrin for use on greenhouse ornamentals and cotton. Studies show bifenthrin to be relatively insoluble in water. Its half-life in soil can range anywhere from 7 days to 8 months depending on the soil type and the amount of air in the soil (ETN, Bifenthrin, 1995). Bifenthrin is one of a few synthetic pyrethroids that are relatively stable in direct sunlight. EPA has classified products containing bienthrin as toxicity class II (I = most toxic, IV = least toxic), and the word WARNING must appear on all product labels.
    Bifenthrin is moderately toxic to mammals when ingested (oral rat LD50 = 54 to 70 mg/kg), and like all pyrethroids affects the central nervous system. Symptoms of poisoning include incoordination, tremor, salivation, vomiting, diarrhea, and irritability to sound and touch (ETN Bifenthrin, 1995). Although bifenthrin does not cause inflammation or irritation on human skin, it can cause a tingling sensation, lasting about 12 hours. A study on laboratory mice shows that bifenthrin causes gene mutation in white blood cells (ETN, Bifenthrin, 1995). EPA classifies bifenthrin as a Class C (possible human) carcinogen (EPA, 1997). Of concern in the environment, bifenthrin is very highly toxic to fish, crustaceans, other aquatic animals and bees, and is moderately toxic to birds. Scientists are particularly concerned about possible bioaccumulation in birds.

  55. lil_bit_obsessed

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    Fearful_and_Buggy - 43 minutes ago  » 

    He's not ingesting the insecticide, which is the primary source of toxicity in these studies.

    Unfortunately with the amount of pesticide he is spraying, he likely is ingesting some of it. Even with smaller amounts of pesticides, there is always the risk of having it on your clothes, hands, the items you touch etc., and then eating, drinking, or even just touching your face afterwards, thereby transferring it to your mouth.

    Keep in mind, also, that pesticides can enter the bloodstream through routes other than the mouth. The eyes are one such route.

    we need to keep in mind that some people will come to this website feeling desperate to find ANYTHING that will help them get rid of the bugs. I don't want someone to walk away from this thread thinking that it's okay for them to overspray or to ignore msds recommendations.

  56. Jason1

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    But as the poster noted....I would have to ingest ALOT before it would be deemed harmful. And considering what i'm doing....that is impossible.

    Iv'e already listed the precautions i'm taking.

    People on this board, even if "desperate".... are intelligent enough to understand the steps specific individuals are taking to combat this problem, are steps "they" are taking. I'm not telling others to do the same as what i'm doing....i'm just saying what works for "me". If they wanna try it, so be it.

    IMO, what iv'e been doing, along with the precautions i'm taking....are next to harmless. I am NOT breathing in toxic fumes, nor am I ingesting any.....definately not any to harmful levels.

    lil_bit_obsessed - 5 minutes ago  » 

    Fearful_and_Buggy - 43 minutes ago  » 
    He's not ingesting the insecticide, which is the primary source of toxicity in these studies.

    Unfortunately with the amount of pesticide he is spraying, he likely is ingesting some of it. Even with smaller amounts of pesticides, there is always the risk of having it on your clothes, hands, the items you touch etc., and then eating, drinking, or even just touching your face afterwards, thereby transferring it to your mouth.
    Keep in mind, also, that pesticides can enter the bloodstream through routes other than the mouth. The eyes are one such route.
    we need to keep in mind that some people will come to this website feeling desperate to find ANYTHING that will help them get rid of the bugs. I don't want someone to walk away from this thread thinking that it's okay for them to overspray or to ignore msds recommendations.

  57. Jason1

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    Just an update from this morning. I found 2 bb in the ring of death. Some are slowly trying to make it through. I suppose they're getting desperate and hungry. I found a couple a few day's ago aswell, and a couple that made it to my bed....but were doa!

    I'm now spraying every 3 days....then switching to weekly to see if the results remain the same!

  58. Nobugsonme

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    Mon Jun 22 2009 23:24:22
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    Jason,

    Effici excerpted this:


    As a Restricted Use Pesticide, bifenthrin may only be purchased or applied by certified applicators or persons under the direct supervision of a certified applicator.

    You're using a restricted use pesticide outside of the label's instructions.

    As you said, it's your choice.

    But I would strongly discourage anyone from doing this. (And I see there's no point in trying to discourage you, but I am talking to all the others who may come along and read this.)

    People who read the forums are often desperate to try anything. They will often jump on the advice of anyone claiming to have found a safe, cheap, easy, simple solution they can buy at the local store.

    People who come here in a crisis often not thinking straight. We KNOW this because they often come back LATER and tell us they did the wrong thing. They often aren't in the right mind to be researching or making careful choices.

    We're cautioning your solution may not be as safe, easy, simple or cheap as it sounds.

    Although people have focused on the safety of applying pesticides daily (which I also do not think is a good idea, healthwise), there are also other reasons we recommend against DIY pest control. One is that some pesticides, overapplied, may cause repellency. (That's something people often think is a good idea -- with bed bugs, it isn't. It means bed bugs dispersed throughout your home even more thoroughly, and even more diffcult to eradicate.)

    I can't comment on the chemicals you're using --I'm not qualified. I've been reading about bed bugs for three years, and I am not qualified to advise people about this.

    Perhaps some of the PCOs will comment on that aspect of your plan, just for others who may come later.

  59. Jason1

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    Well, all I know is, what i'm doing is WORKING, and after being bitten daily for months....I havn't been bitten, not once, in bed, since I started this regime 12 day's ago.
    There are risks in EVERYTHING. I could get hit by a bus crossing the street while trying to get rid of a damn bb crawling under my shirt, lol. Ok, that's a little dramatic....but you get the message.

    For me, my "mental" health is far more important than the MINIMAL, and I do mean "minimal" health risk i'm taking with this spray. Not only have people with knowledge on the matter pointed out the minimal risks in this thread....but iv'e also researched the risks myself.....and the fact of the matter is this; the small amount of toxicity i'm taking in, is next to harmless.....taking into consideration the precautions i'm taking, which in previous posts iv'e noted for all to see. It would ONLY be harmful over an extended period of time, and with far greater levels of chemicals inhaled/ingested.

    Now those are FACTS. I don't know what else to tell you.

    Hell, the packaging itself says for "indoor" and outdoor use....and says nothing about a restricted pesticide, nor does it say anything about being used by certified individuals only. It's a domestic insecticide that can be used by anyone.

    Furthermore, iv'e already cut back to 3 days per week....and will be pulling back to once a week, as long as the results remain the same.

    BTW, not only is the barrier holding....iv'e noticed an overall reduction in the bb i'm seeing after spraying all the crack, crevices, under counters, etc.

    Iv'e never said this was the silver bullett....it's NOT, cause I still have bb, but it's helping, and with the barrier, i'm no longer getting bitten in bed. End of story!

    Nobugsonme - 20 hours ago  » 
    Jason,
    Effici excerpted this:


    As a Restricted Use Pesticide, bifenthrin may only be purchased or applied by certified applicators or persons under the direct supervision of a certified applicator.

    You're using a restricted use pesticide outside of the label's instructions.
    As you said, it's your choice.
    But I would strongly discourage anyone from doing this. (And I see there's no point in trying to discourage you, but I am talking to all the others who may come along and read this.)
    People who read the forums are often desperate to try anything. They will often jump on the advice of anyone claiming to have found a safe, cheap, easy, simple solution they can buy at the local store.
    People who come here in a crisis often not thinking straight. We KNOW this because they often come back LATER and tell us they did the wrong thing. They often aren't in the right mind to be researching or making careful choices.
    We're cautioning your solution may not be as safe, easy, simple or cheap as it sounds.
    Although people have focused on the safety of applying pesticides daily (which I also do not think is a good idea, healthwise), there are also other reasons we recommend against DIY pest control. One is that some pesticides, overapplied, may cause repellency. (That's something people often think is a good idea -- with bed bugs, it isn't. It means bed bugs dispersed throughout your home even more thoroughly, and even more diffcult to eradicate.)
    I can't comment on the chemicals you're using --I'm not qualified. I've been reading about bed bugs for three years, and I am not qualified to advise people about this.
    Perhaps some of the PCOs will comment on that aspect of your plan, just for others who may come later.

  60. DragonFlight

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    Jason you are doing the right thing. What would you rather live with a little chemicals or bed bugs ? I would take take chemicals, and besides as already mentioned a large dose on a regular basis would have an effect. In other words you would have to spray, every day for probably over a year or longer, since you are cutting back on the spraying that is unlikely.

    Have you cut back the spraying to every 3-4 days and is it just as effective ? If so the the next step is every week followed by bi-weekly, I would consider bi-weekly the limit.

  61. Jason1

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    Thank-you. I think it's more of a "liability" thing with some of the people rejecting my spraying regime. Obviosly the people who operate and run this board don't want someone to get poisoned....and I can understand that. On the other hand, iv'e explained how basically harmless what i'm doing is, at the levels i'm doing it, and the precautions i'm taking.....and i'm getting tired of explaining the same damn thing, over and over and over again!

    Yes, iv'e cut back to 3 days....and it's just as effective, no change. I'm spraying tonight, Friday.....then will begin once a week spraying. Yea, bi-weekly would most likely be my limit.

    DragonFlight - 4 minutes ago  » 
    Jason you are doing the right thing. What would you rather live with a little chemicals or bed bugs ? I would take take chemicals, and besides as already mentioned a large dose on a regular basis would have an effect. In other words you would have to spray, every day for probably over a year or longer, since you are cutting back on the spraying that is unlikely.
    Have you cut back the spraying to every 3-4 days and is it just as effective ? If so the the next step is every week followed by bi-weekly, I would consider bi-weekly the limit.

  62. DragonFlight

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    Keep up what your doing, I support it. Don't do no more explaining, your going to do it this way as it's been effective and that's it. Some people don't want to see no bugs, no even spiders which I welcome and even greet As far as I know we have some wolf spiders, I just saw one climbing on my ceiling this morning, they can jump quick. Let me know how it goes after a week.

  63. Jason1

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    LOL, sounds like me, iv'e always liked spiders actually, never had a problem with them at all.....and never wanted to kill one. Also, iv'e heard they will KILL bb's....all the MORE reason to love them!!

    Whenever I see a spidey it seems all's right in the world, heh!

    DragonFlight - 4 minutes ago  » 
    Keep up what your doing, I support it. Don't do no more explaining, your going to do it this way as it's been effective and that's it. Some people don't want to see no bugs, no even spiders which I welcome and even greet As far as I know we have some wolf spiders, I just saw one climbing on my ceiling this morning, they can jump quick. Let me know how it goes after a week.

  64. DragonFlight

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    Spiders do kill bed bugs, especially the wolf spiders as they jump quite incredible just picturing a bed bug running and a spider like the wolf crouching down and boom it's on top of it. Or a bed bug running into a spider web and then mumbling "shit, crap" that is priceless for everything else theres "MasterCard"

  65. spideyjg

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    If on the ceiling what you likely saw was a jumping spider. Wolves tend to stay lower in their prowling.

    I'd love to see video of a spider taking out a BB.

    Jim

  66. bedbugsbad

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    I'm in California and where we have black widows. Widows or bedbugs which would you prefer?

    BBbad

  67. DragonFlight

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    Widows, you can solve them easier. And I know you won't agree.

  68. Jason1

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    LMAO, well you can "chop" them up with a Mastercard!

    DragonFlight - 1 hour ago  » 
    Spiders do kill bed bugs, especially the wolf spiders as they jump quite incredible just picturing a bed bug running and a spider like the wolf crouching down and boom it's on top of it. Or a bed bug running into a spider web and then mumbling "shit, crap" that is priceless for everything else theres "MasterCard"

  69. DragonFlight

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    Yeah, I would either that or get some wolf spiders and watch them JUMP, CATCH,KILL and then applaud the spider, Job well done

  70. Jason1

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    Update: Another bite-free night! That's 12 nights and counting. More dead bugs found in the ring of death....4 this morning. They are getting desperate, hungry, crossing,....and DIEING!

    Of course the alarmists will tell you what i'm doing may be a hazard to my health, lol, whatever....so is breathing in exaust fumes from a truck, which is a hell of alot more harmful than this particular spray i'm using.

    I think some people are just overly paranoid regarding chemicals. Hey, I don't much like them either....but i'm far MORE paranoid over bb's.

    I'll take my chances....i'm not dead yet, and don't plan to be :).....unless I stop spraying and the bb's bite me to death

    lol

  71. DragonFlight

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    It appears as though you are close to classifying the spray as effective repellent. It is good that is it working, there is obviously something that they don't like which is why they won't cross unless desperate and those desperate seem to be taking that risk to their death. Now if you could get more to cross that ring you may be able to eliminate more. How many days apart have you sprayed recently ? You are getting a nights sleep your next task is to eliminate them completely which I believe you personally will pull off, the question is what route to take and how to plan it out ?

  72. Jason1

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    I'm currently @ every 3 days.....but i'm starting weekly on Friday.

    You're right, it would be better if more bb's tried to cross. The 4 last night were the most iv'e found dead in the ring since iv'e started spraying. Again, the most important thing for me is that I havn't been bitten in bed since I started this. But yea, getting RID of all of them completely is the ultimate goal.

    Also, as iv'e mentioned in other messages....the spraying iv'e done in cracks, crevices, under counters, etc, has definately helped, their is just no doubt about it. I still see bb's, but there is a definate reduction, overal, since almost 2 weeks ago when I begun this regime. Some will say they have "just moved to other locations" blah blah blah, whatever, I don't believe that. And until I see them coming back in great numbers....I WON'T believe that. I'm still finding dead bugs.

    As for your question about "a route to take and plan it out"....I think i'm just going to stay the course. I mean, why mess with what's working, right? Like I said, I'm no longer getting bitten in bed, and their is a reduction in bb's overal. To be honest, the only other thing i'm doing is vaccuming. But I have a crappy hand held vac since I usually just use a broom. I'm gonna have to get a decent vacuumn.

    One thing I can tell you with CERTAINTY....a PCO will never be back in my apartment, not ever. Iv'e been able to accomplish more in under 2 weeks, due to word of mouth from a $9.00 an hour clerk in a hardware store, then the pco's were able to accomplish in almost a year!! Geeeeeeeeez, when I think of all the money those guys made off with. Ah well, live and learn I guess.

    DragonFlight - 1 hour ago  » 
    It appears as though you are close to classifying the spray as effective repellent. It is good that is it working, there is obviously something that they don't like which is why they won't cross unless desperate and those desperate seem to be taking that risk to their death. Now if you could get more to cross that ring you may be able to eliminate more. How many days apart have you sprayed recently ? You are getting a nights sleep your next task is to eliminate them completely which I believe you personally will pull off, the question is what route to take and how to plan it out ?

  73. DragonFlight

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    If you have sprayed in those areas especially baseboards, then there could be a chance that they tried to get out and just died within those locations. In which you gotta vacuum them up *. Try to hunt down where they are coming from, there could be a nest some where in the room if the room is the only location that you have them, since they can hide so well checking every nook and cranny is essential. If you found a bunch in a cluster spray them then find the random ones get some caulking to caulk baseboards and hopefully within the next 2-3 weeks you eliminate them. Get a LED light there backs are some what shiny so you can see them in dark, turn off all the lights and sit in the middle of the floor and spray around yourself then wait, best to have a magazine in case it takes time then turn on the flash light, I guarantee you see some coming towards you then just kill them manually, without them biting you from what I know they can't make babies which is a good thing. Let me know when you reduce the spray to once a week, I'm rooting for you reduce your numbers is key and I hope that you don't see nymphs cause if not that is a good sign in my opinion.

  74. Jason1

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    Thanks for all your advice, appreciate it.

    The LED, sitting in the middle of the room in the dark is a good idea too. Kinda creepy, lol, but worth a try. I'm sure you're right....they will make their move....then I blast them! Direct contact this stuff kills them almost instantly.

    I wasn't really thinking how important a vac was, but by what you're saying and others, it's VERY important. Especially for the nymphs and eggs!

    DragonFlight - 4 minutes ago  » 
    If you have sprayed in those areas especially baseboards, then there could be a chance that they tried to get out and just died within those locations. In which you gotta vacuum them up *. Try to hunt down where they are coming from, there could be a nest some where in the room if the room is the only location that you have them, since they can hide so well checking every nook and cranny is essential. If you found a bunch in a cluster spray them then find the random ones get some caulking to caulk baseboards and hopefully within the next 2-3 weeks you eliminate them. Get a LED light there backs are some what shiny so you can see them in dark, turn off all the lights and sit in the middle of the floor and spray around yourself then wait, best to have a magazine in case it takes time then turn on the flash light, I guarantee you see some coming towards you then just kill them manually, without them biting you from what I know they can't make babies which is a good thing. Let me know when you reduce the spray to once a week, I'm rooting for you reduce your numbers is key and I hope that you don't see nymphs cause if not that is a good sign in my opinion.

  75. Jason1

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    How has it worked out for you?

    TiredOfEm - 1 week ago  » 
    Alright Jason, let's do this and get rid of these pests... I'll get some tomorrow, hell, ill get two to make sure these pests dont come back into my life... I also heard that bio powders work (makes them stupid) and maybe the ortho and the powder can work together and make them come out of their hiding spots and into the ortho...
    pls keep us updated, this is good news as they are rising here in NYC

  76. Jason1

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    Weekend up date:

    15 nights bug bite free....with more bugs found this morning in the ring of death. One bb found in bed.....dead. I squished it....no blood....didn't feed.

    Also, a continued reduction overal in bb's from my spraying in other area's of the apartment....and finding dead bugs in those locations also.

    What do you so-called experts have to say NOW? Nope, didn't think so!

    Hey, you can't blame me as some of you bashed the hell out of me. Well, you were WRONG! The bb's are reducing, and no, they arn't just "hiding in other locations".

  77. DragonFlight

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    Excellent news, how did one get in your bed ? Double check your bed again make sure you clean out every one so that you know your bed is bug free. You have checked other areas ? Did you try yourself as bait ? Are they just in one room ? How many times are you spraying now I would go for 30 days at this point and reduce it, to once a week. I support you 100%.

  78. Jason1

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    Thanks! Well, the one that made it to my bed probably got through the ring of death....but doa. It wasn't bloated, no blood when I squished the little bugger, which means it didn't have a chance to feed.

    As of this past Friday, i'm now spraying just once a week. Will spray again next Friday, and so on.

    I live in an apartment and have seen bb's in ALL rooms....bedroom, living room, kitchen, bathroom....even on the balcony. But like iv'e said in earlier posts....their's been a significant reduction in sightings since iv'e been spraying. And I know it's far more than they're just "hiding in other locations" because I see dead bb's wherever iv'e sprayed. Like the baseboards, cracks/crevices, etc. So I know the spray is working not ONLY as a repellent....but overal eradication.

    No, havn't done the live "bait" scenario you suggested....but probably will soon. It's a good idea.

    DragonFlight - 18 hours ago  » 
    Excellent news, how did one get in your bed ? Double check your bed again make sure you clean out every one so that you know your bed is bug free. You have checked other areas ? Did you try yourself as bait ? Are they just in one room ? How many times are you spraying now I would go for 30 days at this point and reduce it, to once a week. I support you 100%.

  79. DragonFlight

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    Thanks! Well, the one that made it to my bed probably got through the ring of death....but doa. It wasn't bloated, no blood when I squished the little bugger, which means it didn't have a chance to feed.

    It got though the ring of death and it did manage to climb the bed or just around the leg of the bed you saw it ?

    As of this past Friday, i'm now spraying just once a week. Will spray again next Friday, and so on.

    I live in an apartment and have seen bb's in ALL rooms....bedroom, living room, kitchen, bathroom....even on the balcony. But like iv'e said in earlier posts....their's been a significant reduction in sightings since iv'e been spraying. And I know it's far more than they're just "hiding in other locations" because I see dead bb's wherever iv'e sprayed. Like the baseboards, cracks/crevices, etc. So I know the spray is working not ONLY as a repellent....but overal eradication.

    As I said I support you. Compared to before you sprayed how much of a percentage would you say there is a reduction ? Have you caulked some baseboards etc ?

    No, havn't done the live "bait" scenario you suggested....but probably will soon. It's a good idea

    I would try it very soon, let them come for you but I'd do it between 3-6 am which is peak time, hopefully they come for you and do it in the room where you think there is the most still active. What about your furniture what is the condition of it?

  80. Jason1

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    Well, I would have to say their's been aprox 60-70% reduction overal, maybe more. I'm not seeing nearly the bugs I use to see before I started spraying.

    I just use a boxspring (no legs) and mattress, so they don't have far to climb. I don't have the "conventional" type bed. I find this more comfortable. Actually, I like a mattress on the floor....but that would be far too easy for the bb's, lol.

    Yes, iv'e chaulked, but not finished.

    I got rid of my old bed, and sofa....nothing else.

    DragonFlight - 2 days ago  » 

    Thanks! Well, the one that made it to my bed probably got through the ring of death....but doa. It wasn't bloated, no blood when I squished the little bugger, which means it didn't have a chance to feed.

    It got though the ring of death and it did manage to climb the bed or just around the leg of the bed you saw it ?
    As of this past Friday, i'm now spraying just once a week. Will spray again next Friday, and so on.
    I live in an apartment and have seen bb's in ALL rooms....bedroom, living room, kitchen, bathroom....even on the balcony. But like iv'e said in earlier posts....their's been a significant reduction in sightings since iv'e been spraying. And I know it's far more than they're just "hiding in other locations" because I see dead bb's wherever iv'e sprayed. Like the baseboards, cracks/crevices, etc. So I know the spray is working not ONLY as a repellent....but overal eradication.

    As I said I support you. Compared to before you sprayed how much of a percentage would you say there is a reduction ? Have you caulked some baseboards etc ?
    No, havn't done the live "bait" scenario you suggested....but probably will soon. It's a good idea

    I would try it very soon, let them come for you but I'd do it between 3-6 am which is peak time, hopefully they come for you and do it in the room where you think there is the most still active. What about your furniture what is the condition of it?

  81. BugBoy911

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    Jason1 - 1 week ago  » 
    Still no bites. That's 4 nights in a row now, after, as I mentioned before, getting bitten every night for several months. I'm continuing to spray evey night.....around the bed, isolating it completely. The only way the bb's can get to me is by crossing the barrier....and so far, they arn't. I think after this week, i'm gonna start spraying around the bed every 2-3 days, rather than everyday.....and see what happens. I'm just not sure how strong this stuff is if it's not applied daily. Maybe it doesn't need to be applied daily, just don't know yet....but i'll find out if they start attacking me again!

    My point exactly! All you awsome people being attacked by bedbugs and you go out and charge hundreds of dollars or thousands to companies who clam their experts in bedbug control, and 2 treatments later, 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on and your sill getting bites right!?! There's only one main reason for this, and I"ll clue you in.... open your eyes close.... Its called HOURLY PAY.... You honestly think that the technician from a fancy pest control company making $15 an hour is really gona give you %150 dedication and even the time of day to help you? Well mabye a little, yet in most cases its worse than when he started! These extremelly high fee's in %90 of the cases I"ve seen go into Mr. Boss's new mercedes, or a pool for his family. Why not ask the boss to come down and do the treatment, mabye he'll actually do a good job knowing that he's making $800 for a few hours of his life... If you as a novice pesticide user can pick up a over the counter gallon of Home Defense which is I beleive Bifenthrin "talstar," and permethrin, which by the way permethrin is one of the most toxic of all pesticides to use when it comes to mammals, you saw with your own eyes, how when you actually care, and wana do good for somebody, its a whole different ball game. I"m not gona encourage everyday citizens to go out and purchase pesticides for situations like this, yet it just makes me wana vomit when I hear how much these boss's are making, and how much there payin there men. Lets see.... Boss $800........ Technician with 3 years experience 3 licenses $30.00 oh wait... Taxes.... $24.50..... Thats for 2-3 hours lets say for hard, dangerous, laborsome work. Client "oh yea, he sprayed around, flipped the mattress, left everything soaked, and I still have bedbugs." End of Story

  82. Jason1

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    That is precisely why a PCO will NEVER, ever, darken my door step again!

    Enough money was wasted on them. Several months in fact, and they were a complete and utter bust. Something is very wrong when I can come into my apartment, 6 hours after treatment....and find bb's crawling on the wall, floor, etc. And don't give me this bullshit that they "havn't had a chance to die yet", or some such crap, because that's all it is....crap!

    Not saying PCO's are ALL bad, but the ones I had were certainly no damn good. A money-making machine, that's about it!

    Self treatment, weeks later, and I havn't dropped dead from the otc spray iv'e been using (now once a week treatment) imagine that, lol.

    I notice the tree-huggers and alarmists are very quiet now....quiet as church mice a matter of fact.

    All I know is i'm getting rid of the bb's....that is CERTAIN!

    BugBoy911 - 45 minutes ago  » 

    Jason1 - 1 week ago  » 
    Still no bites. That's 4 nights in a row now, after, as I mentioned before, getting bitten every night for several months. I'm continuing to spray evey night.....around the bed, isolating it completely. The only way the bb's can get to me is by crossing the barrier....and so far, they arn't. I think after this week, i'm gonna start spraying around the bed every 2-3 days, rather than everyday.....and see what happens. I'm just not sure how strong this stuff is if it's not applied daily. Maybe it doesn't need to be applied daily, just don't know yet....but i'll find out if they start attacking me again!

    My point exactly! All you awsome people being attacked by bedbugs and you go out and charge hundreds of dollars or thousands to companies who clam their experts in bedbug control, and 2 treatments later, 3, 4, 5, 6, and so on and your sill getting bites right!?! There's only one main reason for this, and I"ll clue you in.... open your eyes close.... Its called HOURLY PAY.... You honestly think that the technician from a fancy pest control company making $15 an hour is really gona give you %150 dedication and even the time of day to help you? Well mabye a little, yet in most cases its worse than when he started! These extremelly high fee's in %90 of the cases I"ve seen go into Mr. Boss's new mercedes, or a pool for his family. Why not ask the boss to come down and do the treatment, mabye he'll actually do a good job knowing that he's making $800 for a few hours of his life... If you as a novice pesticide user can pick up a over the counter gallon of Home Defense which is I beleive Bifenthrin "talstar," and permethrin, which by the way permethrin is one of the most toxic of all pesticides to use when it comes to mammals, you saw with your own eyes, how when you actually care, and wana do good for somebody, its a whole different ball game. I"m not gona encourage everyday citizens to go out and purchase pesticides for situations like this, yet it just makes me wana vomit when I hear how much these boss's are making, and how much there payin there men. Lets see.... Boss $800........ Technician with 3 years experience 3 licenses $30.00 oh wait... Taxes.... $24.50..... Thats for 2-3 hours lets say for hard, dangerous, laborsome work. Client "oh yea, he sprayed around, flipped the mattress, left everything soaked, and I still have bedbugs." End of Story

  83. Nobugsonme

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    Jason1 (and DragonFlight),

    I would guess that others are keeping quiet now because they've realized you did not come here for input on your plans, and have no intention of listening to anything anyone says unless they are cheering you on.

    Frankly, I am not sure why you're here, since you disagree so fully with what almost everyone here is saying.

    No one said you would not be able to kill some bed bugs.

    People warned of a possible repellent action (WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING, DragonFlight -- but like I said, neither of you are listening).

    People also warned of possible health effects.

    Since you've been doing this for a few weeks, it is too early to claim that neither has resulted. It's also way to early to claim success.

  84. spideyjg

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    Nobugsonme - 9 minutes ago  » 
    Jason1 (and DragonFlight),
    I would guess that others are keeping quiet now because they've realized you did not come here for input on your plans, and have no intention of listening to anything anyone says unless they are cheering you on.
    Frankly, I am not sure why you're here, since you disagree so fully with what almost everyone here is saying..

    Bingo.

  85. buggyinsocal

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    One of the most valuable things I learned in terms of how to participate in online discussions is that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. When peoples' opinions are deeply entrenched, nothing I say is going to change their minds.

    At that point, I adopt a very simple motto: DNFTEC.

  86. Jason1

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    People can WARN all they like....but when i'm taking the precautions i'm taking, I know what i'm doing is pretty much harmless. And that is FACT....as it's been pointed out in this thread more than once, and i'm not talking about me or Dragon pointing them out either.

    BTW, I have to wonder if some of you know how to read? How many times do I have to say it......I'm NOT just using the spray as a "repellent".....got it? man, lol, how many times do I have to say the same thing??

    Obviously chemicals have to be used with "caution"..... everyone knows that for Christ sake, but AGAIN, and read very, very, carefully this time.....I'M TAKING PRECAUTIONS. Jeeez, I really hate having to use caps and scream....but some of you alarmists just don't get it, do you?

    I'm also wondering, if the fact that self-treatment is working for certain people, perhaps that worries some? I think so, that's the only reasonable explanation. As others have said....pest control, especially pests that "supposedly" can't be controlled.....is a money-making bonanza....with seemingly no end to the feeding troff!

    You wonder why i'm here? well, iv'e read very interesting messages in these threads, helpful with great ideas. Iv'e also said a thousand freaking times....."spraying" isn't the ONLY thing i'm doing....it's just been the most helpful....and some of the ideas I have gotten, and implimented, are from people off this board. Also, i'm here to share what's working for "me".....giving others the option of trying it in their treatment regime, if they so wish. Obviously i'm going to get a little p!ssed when certain people do nothing but BASH what i'm doing, without listening to the whole story. IE, precautions, my other lines of attack, etc!

    Nobugsonme - 25 minutes ago  » 
    Jason1 (and DragonFlight),
    I would guess that others are keeping quiet now because they've realized you did not come here for input on your plans, and have no intention of listening to anything anyone says unless they are cheering you on.
    Frankly, I am not sure why you're here, since you disagree so fully with what almost everyone here is saying.
    No one said you would not be able to kill some bed bugs.
    People warned of a possible repellent action (WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING, DragonFlight -- but like I said, neither of you are listening).
    People also warned of possible health effects.
    Since you've been doing this for a few weeks, it is too early to claim that neither has resulted. It's also way to early to claim success.

  87. Jason1

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    Yes, I may have to adopt that myself lol

    buggyinsocal - 49 minutes ago  » 
    One of the most valuable things I learned in terms of how to participate in online discussions is that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. When peoples' opinions are deeply entrenched, nothing I say is going to change their minds.
    At that point, I adopt a very simple motto: DNFTEC.

  88. Nobugsonme

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  89. persona-non-bugga

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    BTW, I have to wonder if some of you know how to read? How many times do I have to say it......I'm NOT just using the spray as a "repellent".....got it? man, lol, how many times do I have to say the same thing??

    Jason,

    You're misunderstanding things. It's not about your INTENT when using this spray. REPELLING bedbugs to new hiding spots (through misuse of pesticides) is something that happens regardless of what purposes and hope you have in mind. If your intentions could override realities, why not intend for this spray to deliver world peace and winning lottery numbers?

    Another unwanted consequence is breeding new generations of bedbugs with increased RESISTANCE to this pesticide.

    You're spraying this stuff all over the place. You've seen a reduction in bedbugs, but you're still seeing bedbugs. When the surviving bugs breed, future generations of bugs in your home will be even more resistant to available pesticides, and, therefore, even more difficult to kill.

    Bedbugs suck. You're frustrated, and it sounds like you've had some piss-poor "professional" treatments earlier. But, what you're doing risks sabotaging yourself in the long run. I'm not even talking about side effects to your health because of exposure to pesticides. I'm talking about having and spreading bedbugs for a very very long time. People reading this should know that.

  90. DragonFlight

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    Well, I would have to say their's been aprox 60-70% reduction overal, maybe more. I'm not seeing nearly the bugs I use to see before I started spraying.

    That is excellent, but how did that one manage to get into your bed, do you think that it dragged itself into your bed and just then died ? And that 60-70% reduction is in total your whole house ?

    NoBugsonMe - It is not about disagreeing it's about fact, what Jason and BugBoy911 are stating is true. I could see if it's a major infestation you would have to call in a PCO, I'd recommend just moving and throwing away over 70% of your stuff, not spending thousands on PCO. I don't know many people who would allow a major infestation to occur unless they had some medical problems or something of that nature where throwing out things or moving was too costly both physically and financially. Jason is a young guy and I'm sympathetic to his problem, he picked them up somehow and is very determined to get rid of them he has already shown over 60% reduction which in all honestly is damn good, don't you agree ? You are under estimating anyone who takes it into there own hands, those who spend extensive time researching know what they are like and know one of two things a)there small b) there flat so that means they know they can hide easy. Then again so can roaches, you wouldn't suggest calling a PCO for roaches would you ? My mother went though a bad roach problem and she had called a few PCO and in all the visits by the PCO companies, most had said that she did a very good job in controlling it herself, we understand bed bugs are different in how they are but they do share some similarities.

    At that point, I adopt a very simple motto: DNFTEC.

    What made up acronym is that ?!?!?! I've also spend a lot of time on online discussion so I know how to hold my own very well.

    Where can you justify in saying he is repelling them ? If he is seeing a 60%+ reduction, on top of it caulking as suggested by many on this board how is that repelling !?!?!?!? Could it be that because he hasn't called a PCO that he has angered the PCO community ? I'm one for animals and the environment, I may know more about issues related to these topics then some of you preaching about there love for the environment. I wonder if some of you are contradicting yourself on one hand you say don't use chemicals then on the other hand your eating tuna, and eating meat which is killing other species. If Jason can eliminate bed bugs by himself with chemicals and other concoctions one would think you would be happy for the guy, but it appears don't want to see him do it himself unless he calls the PCO.

  91. EffeCi

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    Then again so can roaches, you wouldn't suggest calling a PCO for roaches would you ?

    Generally no. In my italian forum devoted to pest control problems, I (almost) always suggest to eliminate roaches DIY in homes. It's easy, cheap and harmful to get rid of them with gel baits, so I put online a lot of instructions that explain how to use gel bait indoor. Gel insecticide is low toxic, long lasting (up to 6 months) and easy to use . No problem.
    Gel Baits (in italian)

    My mother went though a bad roach problem and she had called a few PCO and in all the visits by the PCO companies, most had said that she did a very good job in controlling it herself

    I guess you have no idea of what a real "bad" roach problem is.

    we understand bed bugs are different in how they are but they do share some similarities
    .

    They're both insects, they're both nocturnal and very reproductive. What now?
    Considering BBs as if they were comparable with roaches means underextimating BBs, and it's a classical mistake that most of (unexperienced) PCOs unfortunately still do.

    I'm one for animals and the environment, I may know more about issues related to these topics then some of you preaching about there love for the environment. I wonder if some of you are contradicting yourself on one hand you say don't use chemicals then on the other hand your eating tuna, and eating meat which is killing other species.

    Animalism and respect (not love) for the environment aren't the same. I'm not animalist but, in the same time, I'm extremely respectful to environment.
    A real animalist should open his doors to bedbugs, and feed them daily with his blood... they're soooo starved.... why are you searching to keep them out?
    I guess a sort of racism against bedbugs... altough they're God's creature too...
    It's the same old song: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...;-)

    If Jason can eliminate bed bugs by himself with chemicals and other concoctions one would think you would be happy for the guy, but it appears don't want to see him do it himself unless he calls the PCO.

    I NEVER said he has to call a PCO. He can do it himself, but in a responsible way.
    Treating every day first and then every week with a (very) long lasting insecticide it's a nonsense and it's irresponsible. Living in an overtreated environment is not healty and potentially dangerous. I wonder if he knows that there is something called "chronical intoxication" due to continue exposure.
    In another post you told him to use a vacuum cleaner after treatments... well, that's really dangerous because the vac keeps up molecules of insecticides, spreading them in the air from its rear. This way you breathe them and that's not so healty...

    Some years ago, I was called to "refine" the work of another firm against BBs in a 4 stars hotel.
    They sprayed Dursban (Chlorpyriphos, really more toxic than bifenthrin) every other day for two weeks in two infested rooms. The smell was horrible (Dursban is stinky) and there were a lot (teens) of death BBs near the baseboards.
    But there where hundreds of live BBs well hidden in strange, unusual places, and my inspection revealed that there where 14 rooms infested (an entire floor), not only two as said before.
    And, of course, it was not a "refining" works... I had to do three (well done) treatments with pyrethroids (yes, they works if well used) to exterminate all them.
    The strenght of an insecticide , or using it really often isn't the key to resolve BBs problems.
    A (supposed) 60-70% reduction after two weeks is a really poor result, considering the high number of treatments and the quantity of sprayed insecticide.
    When I use insecticides, 15 days is the period of time between the first and the second treatment, and the third one (a sort of security one) is done after other 15 days, if needed.
    But that's just one of the stategies I apply to fight against bedbugs, not the only one.
    The strategy has to be decided case by case, environment by environment, and it depends from the infestation level and from a lot of other different factors. In some case I use LN2, in others insecticides and sometimes a simple "serch and kill or remove them" method.
    In some particular cases I even treated rooms with smokers (lot of experts advice against them here) to solve the problems, and they were effective. But I used them in an unusual way, based on my experience and knowledge (experts are right, smokers are generally ineffective and make BBs spread...).

    None of the "so-called experts" said that Jason "has to call" a PCO. But they all said he's fighting BBs with a wrong, potentially harmful and dangerous treating strategy, and that he has not the knowledge and the experience to correctly value his results and the possible consequences of his actions.
    Frankly, I don't see so many differences between his "finally working" strategy and the failing one (spray and pray) that a lot of PCOs still apply....

  92. DragonFlight

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    I guess you have no idea of what a real "bad" roach problem is.

    In all honestly it was pretty bad, and my mother would be one to tell her story if she wanted to but she did manage to control it, fairly well. Until new tenants moved in and then it took over in which case moving it the only situation.

    I NEVER said he has to call a PCO. He can do it himself, but in a responsible way.
    Treating every day first and then every week with a (very) long lasting insecticide it's a nonsense and it's irresponsible. Living in an overtreated environment is not healty and potentially dangerous. I wonder if he knows that there is something called "chronical intoxication" due to continue exposure.
    In another post you told him to use a vacuum cleaner after treatments... well, that's really dangerous because the vac keeps up molecules of insecticides, spreading them in the air from its rear. This way you breathe them and that's not so healty...

    I agree that, breathing in chemicals over a long period can cause problems. If Jason is only doing this over a short period which I believe he will be until he solves it and by short period I mean up to six months, on a on and off basis I don't see any real effects happening that he isn't already getting with pollution, or second hand smoke, or bad air, or I could go on and on. I never mentioned to vacuum up chemicals, besides he's spraying down a water type substance which you can't vacuum up, I have never heard of anyone spraying water on a counter and vacuuming it up, I can understand for DE but he hasn't applied DE yet. Have confidence in the guy that when he does he will take the right steps. The search and kill method I suggested as well, as it can be effective if the numbers are not that high. The smoking method you mentioned, I'm skeptical about since bed bugs like Carbon Dioxide and cigarettes emit Carbon Dioxide.

    There are many PCO that don't know what they are doing, for every one good PCO they're over three hundred that are sour. I don't recommend spending hundreds on a hope that they will find that one good PCO, that is just not financially logical for most people. As I've read on this forum there has been quite a few who have gone the PCO route that some on this forum are so linear on doing, but will point the finger when I or others suggest not to go that route. Some of those that have every so strictly followed the advice of others and went that PCO route have had bed bugs return, why is that ? Simple sour PCO or there returning to the way they lived prior to having bed bugs kept them coming back over and over and over again.

    What products can Jason or others use ? They don't know where they can find potent products such as Chlorpyriphos, bifenthrin and I myself asked with no response where can I get a spray that is potent with pyrethroids. Jason found has found such a product that contains Bifenthrin and he went for it, probably unaware at the time of purchase that that he had found something with such an ingredients until after when he was realizing it was working.

    Give him credit, it it works and he eliminates them all over time by himself. I'm sure he has learned and it won't happen again to him when he overcomes it.

  93. EffeCi

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    The smoking method you mentioned, I'm skeptical about since bed bugs like Carbon Dioxide and cigarettes emit Carbon Dioxide.

    Er... a "smoker" it's a water-activated cartridge that generates insecticide smoke (Cy-phenothrin based)... When or where did I talk about cigarettes?

    Bifenthrin it's a pyrethroid...

    Don't know in USA, but in Europe Chlorpyriphos (not a pyrethroid) it's actually forbidden... too strong and too dangerous for domestic employs...

    If Jason is only doing this over a short period which I believe he will be until he solves it and by short period I mean up to six months, on a on and off basis I don't see any real effects happening that he isn't already getting with pollution, or second hand smoke, or bad air, or I could go on and on.

    A weekly treatment for up to six months means a total of 24 treatments or more... bifenthrin lasts (in soil, where is exposed to degradation by bacteria and organic substances) from 7 days up to 8 months. In house is not submitted to this degradation, and so may last longer...
    6 months is not a "short period" and pyrethroids insecticides attack nervous system.
    More than this, bifenthrin is a class II insecticide, so is "a little" worst than normal pollution or second hand smoke or bad air...
    "I believe" and "I see" are nonsenses if you don't own a solid knowledge of insecticide.

    I never mentioned to vacuum up chemicals, besides he's spraying down a water type substance which you can't vacuum up, I have never heard of anyone spraying water on a counter and vacuuming it up, I can understand for DE but he hasn't applied DE yet.

    There is a misunderstanding problem... when you spray, you spray water and insecticide. When it dries up, a thin layer of insecticide "powder" rest on every treated surface and, if you vacuum, you keep it up and spread it in the air you breath. It's ok now?
    In a overtreated environment there is a high quantity of "spreadable" insecticide powder, even if you can't see it...

    About the lack of knowledge and professionality in a greater part of the PCOs, I sadly agree with you. Most of PCOs work on fixed paths and strategies (to kill A, use B) and appear incapable to get out from this action line.
    Curiously, not one of them partecipates to this forum...

  94. DragonFlight

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    Er... a "smoker" it's a water-activated cartridge that generates insecticide smoke (Cy-phenothrin based)... When or where did I talk about cigarettes?

    You never stated that is what you meant !

    A weekly treatment for up to six months means a total of 24 treatments or more... bifenthrin lasts (in soil, where is exposed to degradation by bacteria and organic substances) from 7 days up to 8 months. In house is not submitted to this degradation, and so may last longer...

    6 months is not a "short period" and pyrethroids insecticides attack nervous system.
    More than this, bifenthrin is a class II insecticide, so is "a little" worst than normal pollution or second hand smoke or bad air...
    "I believe" and "I see" are nonsenses if you don't own a solid knowledge of insecticide.

    A little worse, not much so therefore I can't see that much harm, if he is a perfectly healthy male and he keeps things well ventilated, I'm sure he can reduce the toxics.

    There is a misunderstanding problem... when you spray, you spray water and insecticide. When it dries up, a thin layer of insecticide "powder" rest on every treated surface and, if you vacuum, you keep it up and spread it in the air you breath. It's ok now?
    In a overtreated environment there is a high quantity of "spreadable" insecticide powder, even if you can't see it...

    Alright, that it true unless you don't let it soak into the surface which can take 12-24+ hours.

    About the lack of knowledge and professionality in a greater part of the PCOs, I sadly agree with you. Most of PCOs work on fixed paths and strategies (to kill A, use B) and appear incapable to get out from this action line.
    Curiously, not one of them partecipates to this forum...

    Exactly. Hopefully you and others can tell PCO to participate in forums, particularly this one where it's active. Then again a lot of PCO are hard heads they believe they know what they're doing is right, and so be it.

  95. Nobugsonme

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    DragonFlight - 4 hours ago  » 

    Well, I would have to say their's been aprox 60-70% reduction overal, maybe more. I'm not seeing nearly the bugs I use to see before I started spraying.

    That is excellent, but how did that one manage to get into your bed, do you think that it dragged itself into your bed and just then died ? And that 60-70% reduction is in total your whole house ?
    NoBugsonMe - It is not about disagreeing it's about fact, what Jason and BugBoy911 are stating is true... he has already shown over 60% reduction which in all honestly is damn good, don't you agree ? You are under estimating anyone who takes it into there own hands, those who spend extensive time researching know what they are like and know one of two things a)there small b) there flat so that means they know they can hide easy....
    Where can you justify in saying he is repelling them ? If he is seeing a 60%+ reduction, on top of it caulking as suggested by many on this board how is that repelling !?!

    DragonFlight,

    Although I have been reading about bed bugs and talking to people about them for 3+ years, I do not claim to be an expert on pesticides. I HAVE read enough to know that over- and mis-use of pesticides may cause repellency. Do your research.

    I am not a PCO and do not benefit if you call one. There ARE DIY methods I think you can safely and successfully use, and I would not say you should NEVER use pesticides. I just think you have to use them safely and effectively. I am not going to go another round on why I think these methods might not be safe.

    There is no way in which Jason can be sure that since he is SEEING 60% fewer bed bugs, that he HAS 60% fewer bed bugs. Again, do the research.

    The bottom line is, go away for 6 months. Only once bed bugs are gone for 6 months can you claim this is a good method. And even then, potential health effects cannot be seen.

  96. EffeCi

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    Ehm... "a little more" between quotation marks is ironic...

    that it true unless you don't let it soak into the surface which can take 12-24+ hours.

    Mmmm... that's not true: a water based insecticide dries up in a very few teens of minutes, and a lot of surfaces can't be "soaked"... so there is always an insectide layer where you treat, and more if you treat too often or too much....

  97. DragonFlight

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    Although I have been reading about bed bugs and talking to people about them for 3+ years, I do not claim to be an expert on pesticides. I HAVE read enough to know that over- and mis-use of pesticides may cause repellency. Do your research.

    I realize this, this goes for any insect.

    There is no way in which Jason can be sure that since he is SEEING 60% fewer bed bugs, that he HAS 60% fewer bed bugs. Again, do the research.

    He did mention he has done a investigation within his apartment and has seen a reduction , of course that one can't justify in 60 days that there gone. In my opinion 90 days has sufficient weight. What if he or others don't get any health effects what do you say about that ? You seem very focused on health effects NoBugsOnMe, why is that personal experience ?

    Mmmm... that's not true: a water based insecticide dries up in a very few teens of minutes, and a lot of surfaces can't be "soaked"... so there is always an insectide layer where you treat, and more if you treat too often or too much....

    Effeci, this is true but what I mentioned before well ventilated, and no wanting to lick where you sprayed to test consistency

  98. spideyjg

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  99. DragonFlight

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    Again, my question wasn't answered what if he or others don't get any health effects ?

  100. buggyinsocal

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    ad hominem approaches always increase a person's credibility. Especially when combined with post hoc ergo propter hoc.

  101. DragonFlight

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    ad hominem approaches always increase a person's credibility. Especially when combined with post hoc ergo propter hoc

    What did you just say ?

  102. Badwolf

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    spideyjg - 26 minutes ago  » 
    Label states how to apply and has a 12 month residual effect.
    http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdf

    Intersting to see that the formulation used in Canada is different than the one used in the States. According to the Canadian label there is No Bifenthrin in the product: http://www.homedefensemax.ca/images/en/pdf/Home_Defense_709mL.pdf I wonder which formulation is more toxic.

    I sent an e-mail today to the Canadian contact number asking them if they've done any studies with this on Bedbugs. I live in Toronto and wouldn't mind using this as a perimeter defence in the future to keep things out.

  103. DragonFlight

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    Well the product Jason is using is the Canadian one, since he lives in Canada.

  104. Nobugsonme

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    DragonFlight - 1 hour ago  » 
    What if he or others don't get any health effects what do you say about that ? You seem very focused on health effects NoBugsOnMe, why is that personal experience ?

    I have been reading about the experiences of others, for years. People have had health problems.

    EffiCi has commented on this much better than I can.

    And about effectiveness? You cannot know for a long time whether they are gone or whether they were perhaps driven back by a repellent effect (INTENDED OR OTHERWISE).

    Anyway, I think I am done.

    But please: if people become quiet again? Don't assume we agree with you.

  105. Nobugsonme

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    And DragonFlight, by the way --

    When people write to talk about how wonderful their PCO was? I also often tell them to go away and tell us how great it was after six months.

    I am the first to acknowledge all PCOs are not the same. Their performance can't be reviewed after a few weeks of treatment, and neither can Jason's.

  106. DragonFlight

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    I have been reading about the experiences of others, for years. People have had health problems
    .

    What were the extent of the problems ? What percentage were serious ?

    And about effectiveness? You cannot know for a long time whether they are gone or whether they were perhaps driven back by a repellent effect (INTENDED OR OTHERWISE).

    Alright, so lets give the benefit of the doubt and Jason happen to eliminate or others for that matter using a chemical method and 90 days go by with no signs your honestly going to tell me that he or others were not successful ? You seem to really be against anyone doing it own there own, I sense anger from it.

    But please: if people become quiet again? Don't assume we agree with you.

    We don't want people trying to solve it on there own, that is No, No. I won't assume especially from someone like you.

  107. EffeCi

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    Intersting to see that the formulation used in Canada is different than the one used in the States. According to the Canadian label there is No Bifenthrin in the product: http://www.homedefensemax.ca/images/en/pdf/Home_Defense_709mL.pdf I wonder which formulation is more toxic.

    Permethrin!
    Well... I feel less worried about Jason's healt... it has very low toxicity for humans, but may be easy lethal for cats
    It's higly repellent and generally considered not so effective against BBs.

  108. Jason1

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    LOL, this is just getting plain ridiculous. Not you, Dragon, or the others in support of my efforts....the "alarmists and doom sayers".

    So predictable, the same things, over and over and over agian!

    I really appreciate your support, and that you're able to construct conversation with these people to support what you're saying. Iv'e tried, but this is IT....it's like talking to a wall. I will now take your advice and no longer explain myself. I just don't have any patience for such narrow-minded folk.

    I have pointed out a thousand times now the precautions i'm taking....with PROVEN facts to back me up, outlining how what i'm doing is next to harmless over the time period i'm doing it. I have also pointed out, as have you and others....how every day pollution is FAR WORSE than what i'm doing.

    As well, iv'e pointed out my treatment regime is NOT confined to ONLY spraying.

    As for "repelling" bugs into hiding, creating a worse situation. I say bullshit, no facts to back that up as it relates to bb's. And if their is....it does NOT mean it applies to all chemicals, sprays, etc....or EVERY situation.

    Fact is, I do have at least a 60% reduction overal in bb's. That is a fact. Of course i'm guessing % wise....but after almost a year of these things, I think my estimate is pretty close. Although, it may be closer to 75%. If they are hiding "elsewhere"....it seems i'm killing them where they're hiding. You guy's arn't here are you? so you don't know how many dead bb's i'm finding where iv'e sprayed. Not ALL cases are the same, period. With the chalking iv'e done, etc, their is only so many places they can go. I'm eliminating as many as I can.

    And again, if you experts are so smart.....why do you, and the pco's, admite you know very "little" about bb's? If that's the case, maybe some of you should just put a sock in it and let people like me, do what is working for "them".....and share it with others. We are supposedly all "adults" in here, and can think for ourselves.
    We don't need hall monitors telling us what we are doing is harmful, etc, with nothing to back that statement up!

    Dragon, you're absolutely right....the PCO community hate what i'm doing. It's costing me less than 40 dollars per month....rather than the hundreds/thousands they charge. Same as the drug companies.....a "cure" is the LAST thing they want.

    I'm sure the 1700 page views is p!ssing a few people off too, lol. I notice this is one of the most visited threads on the entire board. Why? because something actually WORKS for someone, costing very little money. Rather than paying thousands of dollars and going into debt....only to discover, MUCH OF THE TIME....the pco's were a failure!

    DragonFlight - 6 hours ago  » 

    Well, I would have to say their's been aprox 60-70% reduction overal, maybe more. I'm not seeing nearly the bugs I use to see before I started spraying.

    That is excellent, but how did that one manage to get into your bed, do you think that it dragged itself into your bed and just then died ? And that 60-70% reduction is in total your whole house ?
    NoBugsonMe - It is not about disagreeing it's about fact, what Jason and BugBoy911 are stating is true. I could see if it's a major infestation you would have to call in a PCO, I'd recommend just moving and throwing away over 70% of your stuff, not spending thousands on PCO. I don't know many people who would allow a major infestation to occur unless they had some medical problems or something of that nature where throwing out things or moving was too costly both physically and financially. Jason is a young guy and I'm sympathetic to his problem, he picked them up somehow and is very determined to get rid of them he has already shown over 60% reduction which in all honestly is damn good, don't you agree ? You are under estimating anyone who takes it into there own hands, those who spend extensive time researching know what they are like and know one of two things a)there small b) there flat so that means they know they can hide easy. Then again so can roaches, you wouldn't suggest calling a PCO for roaches would you ? My mother went though a bad roach problem and she had called a few PCO and in all the visits by the PCO companies, most had said that she did a very good job in controlling it herself, we understand bed bugs are different in how they are but they do share some similarities.
    At that point, I adopt a very simple motto: DNFTEC.

    What made up acronym is that ?!?!?! I've also spend a lot of time on online discussion so I know how to hold my own very well.
    Where can you justify in saying he is repelling them ? If he is seeing a 60%+ reduction, on top of it caulking as suggested by many on this board how is that repelling !?!?!?!? Could it be that because he hasn't called a PCO that he has angered the PCO community ? I'm one for animals and the environment, I may know more about issues related to these topics then some of you preaching about there love for the environment. I wonder if some of you are contradicting yourself on one hand you say don't use chemicals then on the other hand your eating tuna, and eating meat which is killing other species. If Jason can eliminate bed bugs by himself with chemicals and other concoctions one would think you would be happy for the guy, but it appears don't want to see him do it himself unless he calls the PCO.

  109. Jason1

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    That is what iv'e said....but certain people don't know how to read, that's why I give up on them.

    I will continue doing what i'm doing and will hopefully be bb free, the end!

    Badwolf - 1 hour ago  » 

    spideyjg - 26 minutes ago  » 
    Label states how to apply and has a 12 month residual effect.
    http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdf

    Intersting to see that the formulation used in Canada is different than the one used in the States. According to the Canadian label there is No Bifenthrin in the product: http://www.homedefensemax.ca/images/en/pdf/Home_Defense_709mL.pdf I wonder which formulation is more toxic.
    I sent an e-mail today to the Canadian contact number asking them if they've done any studies with this on Bedbugs. I live in Toronto and wouldn't mind using this as a perimeter defence in the future to keep things out.

  110. Jason1

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 16:20:20
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    It doesn't matter....the doom sayers and pco peeps will have some other ridiculous excuse why it's going to kill me, lol. It could be made with jello and they would say it's BAD!

    DragonFlight - 1 hour ago  » 
    Well the product Jason is using is the Canadian one, since he lives in Canada.

  111. EffeCi

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 17:09:09
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    I beg your pardon
    You only had to say "the insecticide I'm using is permethrine based" to avoid the greatest part of this 2 page discussion... so don't blame others, thank you.
    You are simply ridiculous sustaining that there is a sort of plot against the use of Permethrine from PCOs in this forum and everywhere.
    Permethrine is an old, well known insecticide, registered (I don't remember exactly when) in the last '70s . It's been employed a lot since then, and that's why there are a lot of resistent BBs (and cockroaches) strains. It's widely used for routinary domestic pest control (in my opinion, too widely)
    It's higly repellent, and thats why is often applied as a perimetral insecticide (kill & keep out).
    I didn't say it's not effective at all. I said that's generally considered not so effective.
    I've tried different product permethrine-based in last years, and unfortunately the results were not so good, I said unfortunately because Permethrine is not expensive and has low toxicity for humans, so it might have been a good tool. In my experience, it isn't.
    Permethrine is working in your case? I'm happy for you (but still convinced you're overtreating, that's a fact) and I hope you will exterminate them ASAP.

    And again, if you experts are so smart.....why do you, and the pco's, admite you know very "little" about bb's? If that's the case, maybe some of you should just shut the fuck up and let people like me, do what is working for "them".....and share it with others. We are supposedly all "adults" in here, and can think for ourselves.
    We don't need hall monitors telling us what we are doing is harmful, etc, with nothing to back that statement up!

    Dragon, you're absolutely right....the PCO community hate what i'm doing. It's costing me less than 40 dollars per month....rather than the hundreds/thousands they charge. Same as the drug companies.....a "cure" is the LAST thing they want.

    That's insulting. And deeply stupid too.
    I won't discuss with you again here or in others threads.Period.

  112. Jason1

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 20:40:01
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    I'm pretty sure not enough, if any, studies were done by Ortho regarding bb's. If they were, I think bb's would definately be listed as being treatable. They will likely give you their standard "handbook" explanation.

    This is the problem, not nearly enough in known about bed bugs, especially since they've only recently resurrected themselves, the last 4 or 5 years. Their's been like a 50 year span where we heard very little, if anything, about bb's. You can be sure if they could carry disease.....alot more would be getting done about the problem. I for one don't understand how it's "impossible" for bb's NOT to carry disease??.....but that's what they say, so whatever. It just seems to me, if a bb can bite one person.....take their blood, then bite someone else.....well, you get the picture. I just don't get it.....but I also don't know enough about it, either.

    Anyway, no matter what arguments people want to make....their is no question, none, that this spray works well in perimeter defence situation(s). ...if that's what you want it for. I'm proof of that. The "experts" even admit it could work in repellent/defence scenarios. They just don't think that's a "good thing".....while I dissagree, and not alone in my thinking.

    Now of course I think (know) it's just as effective as an "overal" spray, also, but i'm not getting back into that as everyone knows what I think!

    Badwolf - 5 hours ago  » 

    spideyjg - 26 minutes ago  » 
    Label states how to apply and has a 12 month residual effect.
    http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdf

    Intersting to see that the formulation used in Canada is different than the one used in the States. According to the Canadian label there is No Bifenthrin in the product: http://www.homedefensemax.ca/images/en/pdf/Home_Defense_709mL.pdf I wonder which formulation is more toxic.
    I sent an e-mail today to the Canadian contact number asking them if they've done any studies with this on Bedbugs. I live in Toronto and wouldn't mind using this as a perimeter defence in the future to keep things out.

  113. Nobugsonme

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    DragonFlight - 5 hours ago  » 

    Alright, so lets give the benefit of the doubt and Jason happen to eliminate or others for that matter using a chemical method and 90 days go by with no signs your honestly going to tell me that he or others were not successful ?
    ...
    We don't want people trying to solve it on there own, that is No, No. I won't assume especially from someone like you.

    DragonFlight,

    Two points:

    1) I never said that if Jason came back having been free of bed bugs for months, that I would not call him successful at having killed his bed bugs. I simply said it is too early to claim his methods are successful. As I said, this is true whether you're in the MIDST of treatment from a PCO, or self-treatment.

    2) BS. I am not against people trying to fight bed bugs on their own. I think it's not the right choice for most people, because most are not willing to do the necessary research and the work. The methods, well, that's another story.

    Please do not misrepresent my points.

    I wish you and Jason1 well, but I would not encourage others to follow this treatment plan.

  114. spideyjg

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 22:19:12
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    What a couple of fucking ingrates!

    Christ on a crutch there is more to the war than just spraying and you haven't laid out the other actions you are taking to see if there are any suggestions. Oh wait that is right all us dumb asses that beat this little fucking bastards don't know shit!

    Great Jason you are having some success and have found a and I stress a, viable weapon but other techniques may enhance your odds. Oh I forgot I don't know shit.

    Now on the odd chance I am not one of the "so called experts" you have to weigh all the evidence to evaluate what is happening to gauge your success.

    What life stages are you finding?
    How long since they last bit you?
    Are the dead full of blood?
    Where is the lair?
    Could they be coming from your neighbor?

    I applaud when people are finding dead bugs because dead bugs are good bugs. Like Nobugs said regardless of treatment, progress is good.

    I'm out of this shit!

    Jim
    SCE

  115. Jason1

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 23:17:03
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    Oh my, a little angry are we, lmfao!!

    What's the matter, your boss pissed you havn't shut me up yet?

    As I said in my previous post....i'm done trying to explain the same things to some of you people over and over again.

    I HAVE laid out the other steps i'm taking, but unfortunately you have a problem reading....and i'm not repeating them for the 100th time.

    Tell your boss I said hello....then tell him you called me a "fucking ingrate" but I still didn't go away. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get a bonus for at least trying!

    spideyjg - 48 minutes ago  » 
    What a couple of fucking ingrates!
    Christ on a crutch there is more to the war than just spraying and you haven't laid out the other actions you are taking to see if there are any suggestions. Oh wait that is right all us dumb asses that beat this little fucking bastards don't know shit!
    Great Jason you are having some success and have found a and I stress a, viable weapon but other techniques may enhance your odds. Oh I forgot I don't know shit.
    Now on the odd chance I am not one of the "so called experts" you have to weigh all the evidence to evaluate what is happening to gauge your success.
    What life stages are you finding?
    How long since they last bit you?
    Are the dead full of blood?
    Where is the lair?
    Could they be coming from your neighbor?
    I applaud when people are finding dead bugs because dead bugs are good bugs. Like Nobugs said regardless of treatment, progress is good.
    I'm out of this shit!
    Jim
    SCE

  116. paulaw0919

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 23:25:18
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    Jason, you are the ideal picture on an idiot. Period. I've admired and "lmfao" at your comments. Just look at how who you protray yourself in this thread!! Really look back at yourself for some self reflection. My Lord ignorance is bliss (and thick too for that matter) I truly feel sorry for you. You done your parents proud I'm sure. Done.

  117. Jason1

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    Wed Jul 1 2009 23:57:53
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    Well at least you "admire" some of my comments, lol.

    Don't feel sorry for me....I have a pretty good life except with this bb problem that is taking up far too much of my time. Although, it does look like it's coming to an end, I hope!

    Iv'e noticed how you alarmists are VERY angry, just like your post. Who do YOU work for? I'm sorry but you are far too obvious.

    I have not called people "fucking ingrates", called them "idiots", nor have I made ignorant comments about ones "parents"....like YOU did. By the way....my parents ARE proud of me, sorry about that big guy.

    Again....there is a reason for your anger. Maybe it is YOU who needs reflection?

    paulaw0919 - 25 minutes ago  » 
    Jason, you are the ideal picture on an idiot. Period. I've admired and "lmfao" at your comments. Just look at how who you protray yourself in this thread!! Really look back at yourself for some self reflection. My Lord ignorance is bliss (and thick too for that matter) I truly feel sorry for you. You done your parents proud I'm sure. Done.

  118. Nobugsonme

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 1:12:15
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    Jason1,

    You have been disrespectful of multiple people on the forums, including all of the PCOs who give their time and energy in assisting people here free of charge.

    To be blunt, cut it out. Or go away. Civility is valued here.

  119. Jason1

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 1:25:02
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    LMFAO!!!!!!!!! Civility is valued here?? pot calling kettle.

    Yet it's ok to call people "fucking ingrates", "stupid", "idiot", and comments about their "parents"?

    That's juse fine with you huh?? Ok, I can play that game to, can I? Scratch that.....i'm not so immature.

    Nobugsonme - 7 minutes ago  » 
    Jason1,
    You have been disrespectful of multiple people on the forums, including all of the PCOs who give their time and energy in assisting people here free of charge.
    To be blunt, cut it out. Or go away. Civility is valued here.

  120. suspicious

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 8:51:37
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    Jason,

    I agree that others shouldn't have called you those names. No excuse for that.

    It is, also, fair to state that you didn't clear up in the beginning that the spray didn't contain Bifenthrin from the start which leads me to think that you didn't know yourself. Just sayin'.

    I think that the PCO's have only said what anyone with common sense would say...You don't need to spray it every day or every single week.

    If you are spraying it that much it only makes sense that it will hurt you. I wouldn't spray RAID that much in my home. RAID is over the counter and everyone uses it. I think that you have found something that seems to be working for you but you need to hunt out the hiding places of the bugs...seek and destroy...to kill them.

    I wish you luck because I think you are at the end of your rope with this. I truly do.

    However, I hope that you understand that the professionals here were NOT trying to undermine you, they were trying to HELP you. They thought for the majority of this thread that you were using a spray with Bifenthrin. You never said one word to clear that up. Even so, I would take their advice and tell them thank you for their time. Because they are only doing it out of want to help you or others that fall on this thread.

    It is not for any other reason. They are good people.

    I hope you can see that.

    I don't think they want to see you fail. I think that they don't want to see you have harmed your health in winning. It is that. No more.

    I think that you shouldn't need to spray so much. I think you are spraying way too much!

    I have read the instructions for the product.

    Please be careful because we don't want you to get hurt in the process of getting rid of these bugs.

    We do want you to get rid of them. I am sure everyone agrees on that. OK?

    Now, smile! And don't spray so much....can't you spray every two weeks for only a few months? That should be enough to get rid of them if this stuff is really working? Right?

    Otherwise, it is not the magic solution. Is it?

  121. Jason1

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 13:52:53
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    Hey, suspicious, thanks for your comments.

    Don't take this the wrong way as it's not directed towards you....but i'm tired of repeating myself over and over with some of these questions. I know YOU havn't asked them before, but many have....and iv'e given the answers....MANY times, lol.
    So, for the questions I don't answer in this post....please review some of my earlier posts for them, if you still want them. IE: the other steps i'm taking, like chauking, vac, etc.

    As for spraying....I disagree. I think it's now been established the spraying i'm doing, once a week....is next to harmless. I find it kinda funny....a matter of fact, I was laughing to myself last night about this. Some of the so-called experts have been saying how permethrin acts as a "repellent"....and in most cases, isn't a good idea.

    Now, what is funny, is that the pco's I was using, two different companies....for almost a year....both used a product called "dragnet". Well, guess what the main ingredient is in Dragnet? That's right, Permethrin. So not only is it funny, it's also a little, actually, more than a little...."hypocritical" to say the least. Also, the permethrin i'm using....@0.25%, is four times less potent than the 1% the pco's were using to treat my apartment. The spraying they did was once a week....which is the same as what i'm doing, once a week. So if my health is at risk NOW, it was at risk even more with the pco's. Like I said....it's four times as potent.

    As for "Bifenthrin"....if these so-called experts, are really experts, they should have known what is and what is not in the damn product.....especially since it's pretty widely used by many people. I stated I was from Canada in my very first message in this thread, as well as other messages.

    I AM seeking out, and destroying bb's. Again, read my earlier posts.

    No one said my spraying was the magic solution, now did they? no, but it IS helpful, that is fact....a lot more helpful than anything else has been in almost a year, ie: the pco's.

    No, i'm not spraying too much....i'm spraying exactly as often as what the pco's were spraying, once a week. The difference is....i'm getting results, GOOD results, while they were not.

    Thank's again for your comments.

    Happy 4th to all my US neighbors!

    suspicious - 4 hours ago  » 
    Jason,
    I agree that others shouldn't have called you those names. No excuse for that.
    It is, also, fair to state that you didn't clear up in the beginning that the spray didn't contain Bifenthrin from the start which leads me to think that you didn't know yourself. Just sayin'.
    I think that the PCO's have only said what anyone with common sense would say...You don't need to spray it every day or every single week.
    If you are spraying it that much it only makes sense that it will hurt you. I wouldn't spray RAID that much in my home. RAID is over the counter and everyone uses it. I think that you have found something that seems to be working for you but you need to hunt out the hiding places of the bugs...seek and destroy...to kill them.
    I wish you luck because I think you are at the end of your rope with this. I truly do.
    However, I hope that you understand that the professionals here were NOT trying to undermine you, they were trying to HELP you. They thought for the majority of this thread that you were using a spray with Bifenthrin. You never said one word to clear that up. Even so, I would take their advice and tell them thank you for their time. Because they are only doing it out of want to help you or others that fall on this thread.
    It is not for any other reason. They are good people.
    I hope you can see that.
    I don't think they want to see you fail. I think that they don't want to see you have harmed your health in winning. It is that. No more.
    I think that you shouldn't need to spray so much. I think you are spraying way too much!
    I have read the instructions for the product.
    Please be careful because we don't want you to get hurt in the process of getting rid of these bugs.
    We do want you to get rid of them. I am sure everyone agrees on that. OK?
    Now, smile! And don't spray so much....can't you spray every two weeks for only a few months? That should be enough to get rid of them if this stuff is really working? Right?
    Otherwise, it is not the magic solution. Is it?

  122. rjames

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 15:14:45
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    It's funny how a product that's only 25% the potency of the 'pro' grade stuff is doing a better job.. makes you think. Thanks for the tip though. It's very very very difficult to find advise other than to 'call a professional' online and quite honestly in this day and age if there isn't a solution to a problem that costs under $100 many of us are out of luck. If someone were willing to treat my house for 100 bucks or less, and do a reasonable job I'd be right on board (I understand why that's probably not even possible, let alone profitable). Until then, I'm on my own and any success story helps.
    Oh, and something that is working for me - its a Conair fabric steamer. We went to wal-mart just to price them but for $30 we bought it right away and it works great. Kills the bugs instantly, not sure about the eggs (yet). It's not a 'dry steam' but it works. As a bonus is cleans things better then I've ever seen.

  123. Jason1

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 17:52:16
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    You know, rjames, that is a damn good question. Yes, it DOES make one think.....and I have been wondering the same.

    You're welcome about the tip.

    Yes, it can be VERY costly to hire pco's, which is why it's great we can have threads like this where people, such as myself, and others, can post messages regarding treatment methods that are working/helping....at least for us, in our particular situations, whatever they may be.

    We are all supposed adults around here, and can think for ourselves.....no matter how desperate we are, and many are desperate....but that doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves. If people want to try some other line of action, besides costly pco's.....they can do so. As you said, not everyone has that kind of disposable cash.....especially in these hard times with the jobless situation/economy.

    30 bucks for a fabric steamer, are you kidding me? wow that's cheap. That would be great to have on hand!

    rjames - 2 hours ago  » 
    It's funny how a product that's only 25% the potency of the 'pro' grade stuff is doing a better job.. makes you think. Thanks for the tip though. It's very very very difficult to find advise other than to 'call a professional' online and quite honestly in this day and age if there isn't a solution to a problem that costs under $100 many of us are out of luck. If someone were willing to treat my house for 100 bucks or less, and do a reasonable job I'd be right on board (I understand why that's probably not even possible, let alone profitable). Until then, I'm on my own and any success story helps.
    Oh, and something that is working for me - its a Conair fabric steamer. We went to wal-mart just to price them but for $30 we bought it right away and it works great. Kills the bugs instantly, not sure about the eggs (yet). It's not a 'dry steam' but it works. As a bonus is cleans things better then I've ever seen.

  124. EffeCi

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 21:17:59
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    It's funny how a product that's only 25% the potency of the 'pro' grade stuff is doing a better job.. makes you think.

    It's not funny, it just impossible.
    I guess it doesn't depend from concentration (being the same substance, effectiveness grows with it) but from formulation. The insecticide used by PCO was probably simply Permethrine-based, while the one Jason is applying has some coformulants isotiazoline-based.
    That might make the difference, and sounds interesting.

  125. Badwolf

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 21:37:52
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    I heard back today from the makers of Ortho Home Defence. I had mentioned to them that it was being used by some people to control bed bugs, and I asked them if they had any studies and/or were planning to do any studies to see what level of efficacy the Canadian and US formulations could achieve against BB's.

    They replied back with a standard 4 paragraph email of what BB's are (I had no idea that they're sometimes referred to as "red coats" or "mahogony flats". lol), how to identify and physically eradicate them (vacuum, steam etc) and at the end of the rambling email, they added this:

    "We do not have a product that will control bed bugs.

    Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us and for your interest in Scotts. Please feel free to contact our company anytime we may be of assistance."

    Jillian Leiter
    Consumer Response Representative
    The Scotts Company and Subsidiaries
    14111 Scottslawn Road
    Marysville, OH 43041

    =======================================

    I have to say that I was disappointed with their failure to even address my question. I'm hoping that these companies are scrambling to develop something that will work well (it will be a goldmine for them in the coming years)

  126. Jason1

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    Thu Jul 2 2009 21:51:37
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    LOL, what did I tell you yesterday? You will get their standard, handbook reply.....and that is exactly what you got.

    I don't like it either, and think they should do some research, as least, on bb's. Like you said, it could/will be a gold mine.

    Maybe I should email them this thread, with my story. Royalty fees when they realize their product may be effective for bb control afteral

    Badwolf - 10 minutes ago  » 
    I heard back today from the makers of Ortho Home Defence. I had mentioned to them that it was being used by some people to control bed bugs, and I asked them if they had any studies and/or were planning to do any studies to see what level of efficacy the Canadian and US formulations could achieve against BB's.
    They replied back with a standard 4 paragraph email of what BB's are (I had no idea that they're sometimes referred to as "red coats" or "mahogony flats". lol), how to identify and physically eradicate them (vacuum, steam etc) and at the end of the rambling email, they added this:
    "We do not have a product that will control bed bugs.
    Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us and for your interest in Scotts. Please feel free to contact our company anytime we may be of assistance."
    Jillian Leiter
    Consumer Response Representative
    The Scotts Company and Subsidiaries
    14111 Scottslawn Road
    Marysville, OH 43041
    =======================================
    I have to say that I was disappointed with their failure to even address my question. I'm hoping that these companies are scrambling to develop something that will work well (it will be a goldmine for them in the coming years)

  127. Jason1

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    Posted 5 years ago
    Thu Jul 2 2009 21:53:58
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    I was thinking it has something, maybe, to do with the "other" ingredients in the spray i'm using. Is that basically your thinking, in what you're saying?

    EffeCi - 34 minutes ago  » 

    It's funny how a product that's only 25% the potency of the 'pro' grade stuff is doing a better job.. makes you think.

    It's not funny, it just impossible.
    I guess it doesn't depend from concentration (being the same substance, effectiveness grows with it) but from formulation. The insecticide used by PCO was probably simply Permethrine-based, while the one Jason is applying has some coformulants isotiazoline-based.
    That might make the difference, and sounds interesting.

  128. Jason1

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    Just a quick update.

    It's now been 3 weeks....without bites during the night.

    The barrier is still holding, i'm spraying once a week. Once a week spraying also including baseboards, cracks/crevices, and everywhere else iv'e mentioned in previous posts. I'm now considering once every two weeks, spraying.

    I have finished the. chaulking.

    The overal reduction in bb sightings is quite remarkable at this point. IF they are simply hiding....they are doing a damn good job. With all the chaulking, etc, I have done.....I really don't know where they COULD be hiding. But I also know, as small as they are, they can hide pretty much anywhere.

    I remain very encouraged in that i'm still finding dead bugs in the places i'm spraying.....including around, and in, the ring of death surrounding my bed. Not finding as many though as I believe most are being killed off....not all.

    Too early to claim 100% success....but I honestly believe i'm getting closer than ever.

    I do know THIS, though.....it's been a huge success already in terms of my overal mental health, lol. Can't tell you what a relief it is to actually go to bed without "fear". May sound silly to some, but it's true, I actually dreaded going to bed at night. Not anymore. I forgot what it was like getting more than 1-4 hours of sleep.....often, 0!

    Will keep posted!

  129. rjames

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 11:40:19
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    Just an update from my neck of the woods.. After the through steaming, the problem didn't go away - however - I picked up a 1.33 gallon jug of Ortho Home Defense Max and WOW Jason is NOT kidding. Day one of spraying in a similar manner as him, and my son (the only one really with any bites or signs) woke up only one live bug on the bed (down from 5-6) and two of those rusty smears. Day two - Nothing but dead bugs around the crevices where the bunk bed frame pieces connect. Day three - NOTHING. Now, I'm not dumb, I know that they are probably there, but this stuff works. His skin is clearing up, he is sleeping better, my wife and I are sleeping better knowing that he is, and all around it is working GREAT. We did do a very through cleaning, and threw out his mattress (no box spring on his bunk bed - which BTW only has a top bed, the underneath is just more play room), along with my daughter's mattress + box spring. My son currently has a airbed until we are confident enough to get a new mattress for him.

    Oh, a side note on the Ortho and mattress - we have a old concrete slab out back that used to be a garage. Just for the heck of it, I put his old mattress on it and sprayed it all over with the Ortho, then covered with a tarp (so the rain wouldn't wash away the chemical). The next day it looked like a BB massacre. There was a pile of hundreds of them, all dead. It was GLORIOUS!!

    NOTE from Admin: under no circumstances should anyone apply anything to a mattress outside of labelling instructions. This can be very hazardous to your health. I think rjames is saying s/he did this with a mattress no longer intended for use, but I am not certain, and it is important that people do not do this on a mattress and then use it.

    Jason, after reading your posts here, I can COMPLETELY understand where you are at. Its almost too simple to be working, but it is. Now we have a really clean and tidy house - not that it wasn't before, but a good spring cleaning makes things look nice + steam cleaned, so there's that.. and best of all the bugs are in remission.

    THANK YOU x1000 for the tip - thank you thank you thank you.

    oh, and thank you

  130. Badwolf

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 13:24:42
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    Great to hear that the Ortho is working as well for others, as it has for Jason.

    rjames - Did you use the Canadian or U.S. formulation?

  131. rjames

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    Its the US formula. The main ingredient is Bifenthrin, I did notice Jason was using the Canadian formula, but I figured what have I got to lose? So far so good..

    I might have considered the drive to a Canadian Home Depot to get their formula if this didn't work. I'm in southern NH, so its not too far..

  132. BedBugBatty

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 15:46:37
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    Hi everyone. I have also taken the bait on trying Ortho's Home Defense Max (US formula). After months of failing to eradicate (only contain them) with extensive laundry/ziplock bagging everything + vacuuming, giant plastic bags for furniture, and using diatomaceous earth/drione/delta dust along with TWO ultimately unsuccessful PCO visitations, this seems to have done the trick. I've always worked to be extra doubly careful about cleaning up residual dust, which has ultimately resulted in a dead vacuum cleaner. It's the start of week 2 for me, and I have not had a single bite since spraying this stuff. (as opposed to before, when daily bites were routine).

  133. Jason1

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    Well i'll be damned, guess i'm not full of crap and "exagerating" afteral, lol.

    That's awesome. So happy to hear how well it's working for you.

    As for myself, if you read my latest up-date....i'm now into week 4, no bites. Not only that, I havn't seen any bb at all in the last 2 days....i'm serious! That's pretty remarkable considering what I had before.....when nothing the pco's did helped.

    I'm not calling this the silver bullet, but considering how well things are going....it's hard not too! I'm finding less and less bugs everyday, that are dead, where iv'e sprayed, and considering all the chaulking iv'e done....if they are hiding, I have no idea WHERE!
    Nope, I think i'm just killing them off.

    It's strange, but maybe the "Bifenthrin" isn't the "main" ingredient afteral? I mean, their isn't any in the Canadian version....yet i'm getting pretty much the exact same results as you are? Perhaps it's the other ingredients, who knows. What I do know is Ortho should make this available for BB users.....then send me some royalty checks, haha!

    Some have said Bifenthrin can "possibly" be harmful if sprayed/inhaled dailey....so take that into consideration. But you're probanly not spraying daily, so it's most likely not a concern for you. And as long as your place is well ventilated....and you leave for a few hours, I would think it would be ok.

    Thank's for the kind words....and you're very welcome!

    rjames - 6 hours ago  » 
    Just an update from my neck of the woods.. After the through steaming, the problem didn't go away - however - I picked up a 1.33 gallon jug of Ortho Home Defense Max and WOW Jason is NOT kidding. Day one of spraying in a similar manner as him, and my son (the only one really with any bites or signs) woke up only one live bug on the bed (down from 5-6) and two of those rusty smears. Day two - Nothing but dead bugs around the crevices where the bunk bed frame pieces connect. Day three - NOTHING. Now, I'm not dumb, I know that they are probably there, but this stuff works. His skin is clearing up, he is sleeping better, my wife and I are sleeping better knowing that he is, and all around it is working GREAT. We did do a very through cleaning, and threw out his mattress (no box spring on his bunk bed - which BTW only has a top bed, the underneath is just more play room), along with my daughter's mattress + box spring. My son currently has a airbed until we are confident enough to get a new mattress for him.
    Oh, a side note on the Ortho and mattress - we have a old concrete slab out back that used to be a garage. Just for the heck of it, I put his old mattress on it and sprayed it all over with the Ortho, then covered with a tarp (so the rain wouldn't wash away the chemical). The next day it looked like a BB massacre. There was a pile of hundreds of them, all dead. It was GLORIOUS!!
    Jason, after reading your posts here, I can COMPLETELY understand where you are at. Its almost too simple to be working, but it is. Now we have a really clean and tidy house - not that it wasn't before, but a good spring cleaning makes things look nice + steam cleaned, so there's that.. and best of all the bugs are in remission.
    THANK YOU x1000 for the tip - thank you thank you thank you.
    oh, and thank you

  134. Jason1

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    Excellent!

    That's one thing, among others, that I havn't done....."bagging". It just sounds like such a nightmare to go through all that.

    Good luck....hope things continue going as well as they are now!

    BedBugBatty - 2 hours ago  » 
    Hi everyone. I have also taken the bait on trying Ortho's Home Defense Max (US formula). After months of failing to eradicate (only contain them) with extensive laundry/ziplock bagging everything + vacuuming, giant plastic bags for furniture, and using diatomaceous earth/drione/delta dust along with TWO ultimately unsuccessful PCO visitations, this seems to have done the trick. I've always worked to be extra doubly careful about cleaning up residual dust, which has ultimately resulted in a dead vacuum cleaner. It's the start of week 2 for me, and I have not had a single bite since spraying this stuff. (as opposed to before, when daily bites were routine).

  135. EffeCi

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 19:27:16
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    Bifenthrin is a class II insecticide... be careful and do not spray too often, because it's extremely persistent. Is NOT labeled for spraying mattresses.

  136. bait

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 20:18:54
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    I believe we can't get this stuff in NY. What's a New Yorker to do?

  137. Badwolf

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 20:37:25
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    bait - it's readily available through Amazon.com

  138. Jason1

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    I don't see why not, unless it's a "state" thing? If it's because of the "Bifenthrin" content, maybe you can order the Canadian version like I use....considering i'm getting the same results without Bifenthrin. Or, as BW suggests....order if off Amazon. Not sure if the postal service, UPS, etc, inspect domestic packages from Amazon, in case for whatever reason it's banned in NY!

    bait - 1 hour ago  » 
    I believe we can't get this stuff in NY. What's a New Yorker to do?

  139. Jason1

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    Is "permethrin" in the USA version, and if so, at what percentage?

    Just curious, thanks!

    rjames - 7 hours ago  » 
    Its the US formula. The main ingredient is Bifenthrin, I did notice Jason was using the Canadian formula, but I figured what have I got to lose? So far so good..
    I might have considered the drive to a Canadian Home Depot to get their formula if this didn't work. I'm in southern NH, so its not too far..

  140. DougSummersMS

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    Tue Jul 7 2009 22:23:43
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    Here is the list of active ingredients off the label

    Active Ingredient
    Bifenthrin*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.05%
    Other Ingredients . . . . . . . . 99.95%
    *Cis isomers 97% minimum, trans isomers 3% maximum
    US Patent No. 4,238,505
    NET/NETO 1/2 GAL / 1.89 L

    Here is a link for the label
    http://www.scotts.com/smg/products/ortho/perimeter_bug_killers/indoor_bugs/pdf/019511020%207-11-08.pdf

  141. Jason1

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    Thanks. Permethrin isn't listed....but maybe it's in the "other" ingredients.

    I'm wondering, because if permethrin isn't in the USA product, and Bifenthrin isn't in the Canadian version....yet it seems by the testimonials, so far, that pretty much the same results are occuring in both products....which leads me to believe perhaps it's one, or some, of the OTHER ingredients, besides permethrin and Bifenthrin, that are the real catalysts? LOL, I dunno, just thinking!

  142. Badwolf

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    Jason - Perhaps the Ortho's 'other' ingredients provide for a more efficacious delivery of the chemical vs. the PCO products? If PCO's are using more potent products, you would expect them to achieve much better results than the Ortho. If the Ortho is producing such amazing results, then perhaps it's formulation is structured in such a way that the BB's absorb the chemicals at a higher dose/rate than the PCO chemicals are able to achieve. Of course, I'm just speculating here.

    Since the Canadian formulation is using a weaker chemical than the US one, but is also producing such great results, then I suspect that the Ortho's formulation for delivering those chemicals may be at the heart of it's success. The fact that Ortho claims it has a 12 month residual is another reason why I'm thinking that this is why it's achieving it's high kill rate.

  143. Nobugsonme

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    I would be cautious against jumping on board with a treatment method someone has suggested here.

    In Jason1's case, he has been treating for several weeks, still has bed bugs (so it is too soon to declare his methods a success, or to say there were not negative effects of any kind).

    Many entomologists and pesticide experts *and many experienced bed bug sufferers* have also cautioned above against his frequency of treatment and the possible repellency which may result.

    Contrary to what jason1 keeps claiming, we are not against doing it yourself per se. However, this site was established to spread good information for people suffering from bed bugs, BY people suffering from bed bugs. We've heard a few stories in the last 3 years.

    We try to warn newbites against methods which
    *may cause repellency, or
    *may make problems worse, or
    *may cause health problems, or
    *which do not take into account the efficiency with which a multi-pronged approach of integrated pest management including pesticides and dusts used as needed (and not overused) can get rid of bed bugs.

  144. Nobugsonme

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    And, jason1, just so you know, I am posting the above for the benefit of others who may come along.

    I am not interested in debating further with you, since you have not read my previous comments closely.

  145. Jason1

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    Excellent points!

    I guess we could pull out our hair trying to figure it out.

    Suppose all that matters, is that it works....and works very well it would seem.

    Badwolf - 21 minutes ago  » 
    Jason - Perhaps the Ortho's 'other' ingredients provide for a more efficacious delivery of the chemical vs. the PCO products? If PCO's are using more potent products, you would expect them to achieve much better results than the Ortho. If the Ortho is producing such amazing results, then perhaps it's formulation is structured in such a way that the BB's absorb the chemicals at a higher dose/rate than the PCO chemicals are able to achieve. Of course, I'm just speculating here.
    Since the Canadian formulation is using a weaker chemical than the US one, but is also producing such great results, then I suspect that the Ortho's formulation for delivering those chemicals may be at the heart of it's success. The fact that Ortho claims it has a 12 month residual is another reason why I'm thinking that this is why it's achieving it's high kill rate.

  146. DragonFlight

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    I'm so glad that Jason success rate has jumped drastically. I would also like to mention first off that the email notification system has become flaky over the past week and it should be looked into.

    From the posts that I've read there were about one or two posts that came off with a condescending tone towards Jason which honestly was that called for ? Second one must understand that Jason has had a nightmare of a ordeal with these bugs so he is under stress and like others with bed bugs they were under stress as well, correct ! I'm also glad that others have jumped aboard and purchased this product and are experiencing amazing results, I myself have recently picked up this product as well. In regards to why the the PCO based pecticide not as effective as the Ortho based pesticide is simple, why would the PCO community make there pesticide as equal or better then that which resides in the Ortho product when they can make recurring visits and charge ? One has to also worry that the PCO companies will get there hand in and collectively find a way to reduce the effectiveness of this product or even worse find a way to remove it off the shelves completely. Also to the person who posted that Ortho never mentioned the product was for bed bugs, why would they ? They never did testing on bed bugs to conclude that.

  147. Badwolf

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    DragonFlight - I doubt there's a PCO conspiracy, especially considering that PCO's have been sounding the alarm about BB's for many years now. The current epidemic of BB's was something that PCO's and others (university researchers etc...) predicted would happen - their warnings, ofcourse, falling on the deaf ears of city councils and other gov't agencies.

    I think a big reason for the high failure rate of certain PCO's is inexperience - they're probably not spraying the chemicals properly, missing areas etc. I'd like to think that their failure rates are unintentional.

  148. DougSummersMS

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    If you are going to experiment on human beings ..... with chemicals that have known (labeled) health effects .... spraying copious amounts indiscriminately in your living space .....

    Shouldn't we at least use sound logic and established scientific methods ..... There are huge problems with the methodology & logic that is being displayed here .....

    The assertion that Ortho HD Max is more effective than "PCO based products" might be a good place to start ..... Oh really .... Based on what evidence .... We have an uncompleted, uncontrolled experiment that is being conducted by individuals that have a preconceived conclusion in mind....

    There is no control group, no direct measurement of any kind, zero objectivity & an unfortunate lack of insight regarding scientific methodology .... Yet we have a series of opinions.... That are presented as fact .... Serious claims based on pure speculation ....

    Claims like the Ortho chemicals are harmless .... better than PCO products ..... a 60% reduction in bed bugs .... that inert ingredients make the home product superior .... claims about a sister product that does not even share the same active ingredient .... a total ignorance about basic principles of toxicology ....

    Then, we have an ill informed conspiracy theory that explains why the greedy professionals are trying to suppress the truth ..... A world wide conspiracy to overcharge you for pest control service ....

    If we are going to experiment on human beings with poisons.... shouldn't we at least be utilizing scientific principles that are taught in a junior high school science class? .....

    Seriously, desperate people come onto this site looking for answers after their lives have been turned upside down ..... Some of them will believe what they read here .... You are doing a huge disservice to these same people that you claim to champion ....

    At this point you are just another snake oil salesman ..... Some of the people that follow your advice will end up with dead pets .... Birds & fish can be harmed by improper application of Bifenthrin

    Find a junior high school student and ask to borrow a science textbook .... You have a lot to learn....

  149. DragonFlight

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    The assertion that Ortho HD Max is more effective than "PCO based products" might be a good place to start ..... Oh really .... Based on what evidence .... We have an uncompleted, uncontrolled experiment that is being conducted by individuals that have a preconceived conclusion in mind....

    What preconceived notion are these people having ? They are seeing results with there own eyes, I don't know where you come up with the word preconceived notion, when on top of it some have claimed that the pesticide in which the PCO laid down was not as effective as the Ortho product, what does that say in your opinion ?

    Claims like the Ortho chemicals are harmless .... better than PCO products ..... a 60% reduction in bed bugs .... that inert ingredients make the home product superior .... claims about a sister product that does not even share the same active ingredient .... a total ignorance about basic principles of toxicology ..

    In other words because this product is working for others there experience must all magical, and one must pick up the phone now and dial some PCO in there area when as already stated in this thread that a majority of PCO don't have experience with mahogany flats and other pests such as cockroaches.

    Then, we have an ill informed conspiracy theory that explains why the greedy professionals are trying to suppress the truth ..... A world wide conspiracy to overcharge you for pest control service ....

    I don't see where ignorance fits in this statement either, I see people are fed up, tired and angry and they want to do something about it and not empty there bank accounts or strip there credit, on a sour PCO that will need to do repeat visits while the person after handing over hundreds still sees bed bugs, and some countries do not have some of the treatments that the US has. Either as a American or as non-American the statement posted can go either direction.

    If we are going to experiment on human beings with poisons.... shouldn't we at least be utilizing scientific principles that are taught in a junior high school science class? .....

    Seriously, desperate people come onto this site looking for answers after their lives have been turned upside down ..... Some of them will believe what they read here .... You are doing a huge disservice to these same people that you claim to champion .... At this point you are just another snake oil salesman .....

    Find a junior high school student and ask to borrow a science textbook .... You have a lot to learn ....

    This paragraph holds no weight, first of all why must someone have Scientific Principals when there main goal is to eliminate bed bugs and get on with there lives ? No one is doing anyone a disservice, what is being mentioned is you can follow your advice which I wouldn't recommend and call up Mr.PCO or you can take it into your own hands, save some money and hopefully solve the problem yourself. I don't see nothing wrong with that, do you ? Maybe you are a PCO because you are very defensive in your entire post, instead of just being happy that these people are solving it on there own and saving money. Neither you or I know where they would rather put there money and frankly it's none of our business just as long as they don't bring these blood suckers back into there home.

    DragonFlight - I doubt there's a PCO conspiracy, especially considering that PCO's have been sounding the alarm about BB's for many years now. The current epidemic of BB's was something that PCO's and others (university researchers etc...) predicted would happen - their warnings, ofcourse, falling on the deaf ears of city councils and other gov't agencies.

    In a perfect world, there are many conspiracies happening as we speak I could go into some but they don't relate to this subject in which evidence is even there to back it up. If it occurs in other subjects\fields then and I'm not pointing a finger at you directly then who's say that this not happening in this field ?

  150. BedBugBatty

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    I'd like to note two additions to my experience...one , I only used Ortho Home Defense Max as the label instructed (spraying baseboards, corners, etc). I never sprayed my mattress or used it in a manner inconsistent with the labeling (aside from the fact that I was spraying to kill bedbugs instead of, say, roaches). Second, the product is labeled for indoor home use. The bottle even has a second, smaller atomizer setting to deliver a more precise spray. My conclusion that while this is a pesticide, it's "safe" to use indoors--so long as you follow the usage directions.

    While I disagree with what Doug's saying, I fundamentally agree with the idea of being cautious. People who stumble into this thread should not get the wrong idea and start manically spraying down their whole home with this bedbug "cure-all". Follow the product directions!


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