Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed Bug Treatment
Dry Cleaners vs A Hot Car in the Summer Sun
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Aris
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Joined: Apr '08
Posts: 62
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 1 2009 14:45:25
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I've read the advice of dry-cleaning (or laundering) and bagging all of the clothes. But I can't afford to dry-clean all of my dry-clean-only clothing right now.
Would leaving the clothing in the car for a few hours in the hot summer sun be effective at killing any bedbugs and eggs that might be in the clothing?
(I should add that all of the clothes in question were already drycleaned after I last wore them, which was about 6 months before experiencing the first bite, and they have been hanging from a high rack in the closet since then.)
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Hi,
Thermal remediation is a more exacting science than attempting the hot car method. It is generally considered not reliable enough and it takes a lot to get the car to a certain death point without tenting it and doing a heat treatment.
For clothes the best advice is look at the PackTite as a solution or see if any PCO's in your area offer an off site decontamination service.
All the best.
David Cain
Bed Bugs Limited -
Heat, according to studies, is efficiently lethal to bed bugs. If you can stick an aquarium type of temperature probe deep into your clothes and get the temperature up to 41c, according to studies all stages of BB's will be dead after 100 minutes. The time decreases the higher the temperature.
Here's the paper, read for yourself and decide: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/jee/2009/00000102/00000003/art00042
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Heat, according to studies, is efficiently, lethal to bed bugs and heat is not patented to anyone. If you can stick an aquarium type of temperature probe deep into your clothes and get the temperature up to 41c, according to studies all stages of BB's will be dead after 100 minutes. The time decreases the higher the temperature. There's a good paper on this and I'll post a link when I can find one that works.
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This is probably going to get me me banned, but it has to be said. This forum is like no other I've come across. Although there is often some good advice given out here, it's against a more cynical backdrop in my opinion.
This place is so full of blatant spam, it's untrue. I've got nothing against the free market economy, but if you call yourself a forum, then there should be impartiality. With all the many advertisments, there is simply no way for the forum to remain impartial. And that what I've witnessed from the very outset. This site is a spam area for PCO's , BB products. and is probably not a bad little earner for Nobugsonme and is why he is so keen not to be seen to endorse self-treatment. That's my conclusion in the short time I've been here. This thread has pretty much made my mind up on that and here's why.
Another distressed person comes along, probably al ready spent a fortune on BB treatment, and asks if he or she can save some money by treating their clothes with heat and avoid more expense. And then David, a PCO and in the BB business, take a sharp intake of breath, tuts, and say's it too tricky a task to undertake in a car, but here's a product that'll do it or seek out a PCO and spend some more cash. Well it's not an exacting science is it David? It's just that's it's self-treatment and not something you, or other PCO's here, want us punters to be attempting--it might be as catching as BB's ;-)
No rocket science to heat treatment of clothes, the science has already been done for you. You just need an accurate thermometer or two, correctly placed at the lowest point of the bundle and perhaps the middle; then leave your car out in the direct sunlight until the temperature reaches 41C or higher. Once the lethal temperature is reaced at the coolest point in the items to be treated, leave it in the direct sunlight for a further 2 hours, or 3 if you want to be extra careful. All stages of BB's will die at that heat. Studies have proven it.
This place is nothing but a money making venture, masquarading as a forum. A place to coral those at the end of their tether to part with their cash. Only the dumb and gullible won't see that . Now I'm done with this place. I hate sneaks and mercenaries. And remember, there's more to a repuation than being adept at your job.
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Oh Jesus... energy creatures are multiplying and spreading, exactly as BBs...
Why don't you connect brain before speaking?
There are a lot of scientific evidences that a hot car is not an affordable method to get rid of bed bugs, and you can find a lot of docs online about this argument.But, in effect, you're right... there is a worldwide conspirations between mad scientists, crazy entomologists, obscure researchers and dishonest PCOs... you're going to reveal it to the entire world and so you've to be considered a danger...we will discover your address and send some highly experienced ninja exterminators to nightly treat your home with vikane while you're sleeping.... there's no hope for you to survive...
I've confirmed your suspect, do you feel your heart is now lighter?
Bah.... -
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Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 113
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 1 2009 20:19:00
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I know my opinion will immediately be dismissed because I sell Packtite, but the problem with a hot car is the parts of the car that don't get hot. How does underneath the seat of a car get that is parked in the sun? How hot does it get underneath the lining or floor mats of a car in the sun? Many places for bed bugs to escape to as their environment heats up, and yes they will seek out those cool locations. I guess you could use the car to get bed bugs out of clothing but understand that doesn't mean you have killed them, they probably just ran off to a cool zone in your car. Wait. I'm receiving a transmission from the dark overlord.....................yes, yes, David Cain, I did squash the hot car insurrection. All is going according to plan. Nobugsonme, please initiate plan alpha, "the bear barks at midnight"
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spideyjg
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 1,405
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 1 2009 20:37:38
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djames1921 - 16 minutes ago » Wait. I'm receiving a transmission from the dark overlord.....................yes, yes, David Cain, I did squash the hot car insurrection. All is going according to plan. Nobugsonme, please initiate plan alpha, "the bear barks at midnight"
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Oh Christ David I needed that.
Hey wait a minute where is my secret membership card and a cut of the cabal profits!
Don't make me tell how I did use ambient heat for treatment of items. Albeit I did take measurements and it was in a desert at 100+F
It can work but clothes do insulate quite well so it presents challenges. People want definitive times but that is impossible. Taget temp of heating stuff is 120+ although thermal death begins lower it is more consistent above 120.
If you can monitor the temp pack the stuff very thin and try it. Stick a big fuggin bag of laundry in the back of a car and you ain't gonna achieve the goal.
Jim
SCE -
buggyinsocal
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Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,130
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 1 2009 21:16:01
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Aris,
There have in the past been extensive discussions about the challenges to using heat in a car to treat items.
If you'd like to decide for yourself which opinions expressed here are more credible, I'll point you to the conversation thread that, in my opinion, clearly lays out the details of the science you'd be up against. That way you can read the thread, compare it with the other comments you're receiving and decide, which of them provide the most credible advice for you.
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/need-something-disputed-car-treatment#post-33582
It took me a while to find it, but it's the post that I think of the ones I could find gives the best overview of why even though I initially had hoped to use exactly that method (since I live in southern California where hot and sunny are pretty much a daily existence in the summer, and that's when I discovered my infestation), I don't recommend it to anyone anymore because it's not 100% reliable.
And I say that as someone who lives within a few hours drive of a desert where air temps in the daytime regularly hit over 120 degrees F.
The choice, ultimately, is yours to make, but of the threads on the topic, but if you want a fair and balanced answer, you'll probably want to read that one in addition to the comments here.
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Jason1
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Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 224
Posted 4 months ago
Wed Jul 1 2009 22:36:47
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Excellent post, Muddy, very well said....I could not agree MORE, with most of it....like 99%. If you've seen my thread you know why I agree, lol.
The 1% i'm skeptical about, is the car heat. I just don't know if that's a good idea, I mean, what if the heat doesn't kill them ALL? You don't want them in your car.
Now, i'm not sure where you live....if it's Arizona or somewhere like that then maybe you have a point, but it has to be pretty damn hot. I had a comforter in the dryer on high heat for 2 hours....and still had a couple live bb's that didn't die.
Obviously they don't die on wash cycle either....yet they die when u drop one into the sink. Well, maybe not!
muddy - 4 hours ago »
This is probably going to get me me banned, but it has to be said. This forum is like no other I've come across. Although there is often some good advice given out here, it's against a more cynical backdrop in my opinion.
This place is so full of blatant spam, it's untrue. I've got nothing against the free market economy, but if you call yourself a forum, then there should be impartiality. With all the many advertisments, there is simply no way for the forum to remain impartial. And that what I've witnessed from the very outset. This site is a spam area for PCO's , BB products. and is probably not a bad little earner for Nobugsonme and is why he is so keen not to be seen to endorse self-treatment. That's my conclusion in the short time I've been here. This thread has pretty much made my mind up on that and here's why.
Another distressed person comes along, probably al ready spent a fortune on BB treatment, and asks if he or she can save some money by treating their clothes with heat and avoid more expense. And then David, a PCO and in the BB business, take a sharp intake of breath, tuts, and say's it too tricky a task to undertake in a car, but here's a product that'll do it or seek out a PCO and spend some more cash. Well it's not an exacting science is it David? It's just that's it's self-treatment and not something you, or other PCO's here, want us punters to be attempting--it might be as catching as BB's ;-)
No rocket science to heat treatment of clothes, the science has already been done for you. You just need an accurate thermometer or two, correctly placed at the lowest point of the bundle and perhaps the middle; then leave your car out in the direct sunlight until the temperature reaches 41C or higher. Once the lethal temperature is reaced at the coolest point in the items to be treated, leave it in the direct sunlight for a further 2 hours, or 3 if you want to be extra careful. All stages of BB's will die at that heat. Studies have proven it.
This place is nothing but a money making venture, masquarading as a forum. A place to coral those at the end of their tether to part with their cash. Only the dumb and gullible won't see that . Now I'm done with this place. I hate sneaks and mercenaries. And remember, there's more to a repuation than being adept at your job. -
Thanks David James! LOL.
muddy,
David Cain has nothing to do with Packtite (to my knowledge, he does not sell them or have anything to do with their manufacture), and is not paid for participating in this site. So why then would he be recommending one? Maybe because it's a useful gadget.
The site does contain ads, but it also takes a lot of time to run it. The information here is free to anyone, and no one needs to pay anything or buy anything in order to benefit.
When great free or cheap solutions come alone, believe me, we'll be pushing them.
Until the Packtite came along, people were microwaving their books (not such a great idea). Why?
Because unless someone does as you state and monitors the center of their items with a probe, and ensures the correct temperature is reached for the correct period of time, the car trick doesn't work. Heat definitely works, but is an exact science, as David Cain stated.
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And this should seem obvious, but given jason1's comment -- if you ARE going to attempt the car method, with a temperature probe, all items must be completely sealed in plastic in an airtight manner (e.g. XL Ziplocs).
You don't want them walking around in the car.
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Hi,
Just to make it 100% clear I have no association or financial dealings with PackTite, I happen to think it is a suitable solution to a problem and its that simple.
It has been tested and proven to work time after time and is reproducible hence my support of it.
Solutions which are not 100% reproducible will not get my support. Not because I am a big bad commercial PCO anyone who knows me and sees what I do will know that is not the case. I don't get paid for the public education work I do, I don't get paid for bed bug beware, I don't get paid to give up my free time to post to groups like this is accurate information and support. In fact almost all of the profit we make it put back into development and projects like the mapping study. If you think pest control in the UK is big business I can tell you at this level it is simply not the case. If you don't believe me go to companies house in the UK request a copy of my accounts, they are publicly accessible.
I am certainly not known for tutting other than when someone self treats and makes the matter worse which we actually see a lot in London. We don't charge extra for such cases we just take a portfolio view and deal with them.
I do try and give constructive support and suggestions where possible but some people are just looking for battles, their efforts would be best set aside for tackling the bed bugs.
I do however feel a few of the comments in the post above sail close to the line in terms of accusations and allegations which are far from the constructive nature of this forum. After all you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
If you want to have a cheap shot that is your prerogative just be careful as to why you do it and who you put in the cross hairs.
My advice above still stands and mirrors other posts I have made on the subject by simply stating that a hot car is not an efficient and reproducible method of eradicating bed bugs. You may be able to measure to see if control is viable but the cost of the temperature sensors and reading equipment last time I looked into it was more expensive than the off site decontamination service we provide, the main cost of which is to cover transport charges or is this just an example of the money greedy pest control industry attempting to lock out the poor and dishevelled electronics industry.
David
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djames1921 - 5 hours ago »
the dark overlord..................... David Cain,Its nice to see my PR company have got the corporate branding right on this occasion unfortunately the field results from the controlled release of the mind control strain of bed bugs is not going as well as we would have hoped.
David
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djames1921 - 8 hours ago »
I know my opinion will immediately be dismissed because I sell Packtite, but the problem with a hot car is the parts of the car that don't get hot. How does underneath the seat of a car get that is parked in the sun? How hot does it get underneath the lining or floor mats of a car in the sun? Many places for bed bugs to escape to as their environment heats up, and yes they will seek out those cool locations. I guess you could use the car to get bed bugs out of clothing but understand that doesn't mean you have killed them, they probably just ran off to a cool zone in your car. Wait. I'm receiving a transmission from the dark overlord.....................yes, yes, David Cain, I did squash the hot car insurrection. All is going according to plan. Nobugsonme, please initiate plan alpha, "the bear barks at midnight"Oh come on! Do i have to spell it out, he's talking about his clothes. What can you do with clothes prior to putting them in the car. No takers? Put them loosely in bin liners or some other sealed container and leave on all seats of the car. Insert temperature probes in the likely coolest places, drive the car to a spot that will receive the sun for most of the day and you are talking about a very hot car. 41C+ would be reached easily. It's a no brainer and no cash till need to go kerching.
Well done on your invention, it's a great idea to capitalise on something that was being used to kill bed bugs before you was born and to your credit you packaged it. It seems a lot of people are finding you product really useful (all look an endorsement, I must be joining the dark side) But, correct me if I'm wrong, but all you have is a container, a heat source and a temperture gauge...oh, and something very, very valueable--instructions. In essence, no different than the car in the sun.
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So far, apart from Jason, you've all pretty much reacted predictably to my post. Create a strawman, then throw in a few ad hominems, before a few feeble attempts to refute. Somebody with a Phd that can't argue, would be shocking, but at least he's only an Italian, so I won't concern myself too much.
I do however feel a few of the comments in the post above sail close to the line in terms of accusations and allegations which are far from the constructive nature of this forum. After all you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
Really, what line would that be? Care to attribute and point them out? What I said stands. The first post you made to me came with an invitation to contact you. Was that to come and give me some free treatment or advice, or would the final transaction have been money leaving my pocket to yours? I've been around a lot of internet forums and that sort of activity is sailing way over the line. Constructive nature of this forum? Not for those who don't have a healthy bank balance. Nearly alll the advice I've seen since I've been here involves either accessing a PCO or a product endorsed by the site.
If you want to have a cheap shot that is your prerogative just be careful as to why you do it and who you put in the cross hairs.
I reported it exactly as it happened and made my observations about a pattern that I've seen keep repeating here. Hardly a cheap shot. I know exactly why I said it and so should you, it's all written down. I said it because I was sick of every bit of advice leading to people here having to part with money and the general paucity of free information. I came here to get some information on how to deal with a problem on my own and then got an approach from PCO. Now do the right thing and call me on it big shot. It's all here.
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but at least he's only an Italian
As I always say, racism is the last poor resource of idiots... -
And, by the way...
Caro Muddy
ho la netta impressione che tu sia del tutto ignorante per quanto riguarda le cimici dei letti e le strategie necessarie per contrastarle. Sei solo capace (e lo stesso vale per Jason) di insultare e di fare basse insinuazioni nei confronti di persone che dedicano (a titolo assolutamente gratuito) buona parte del loro prezioso tempo a cercare di aiutare gli altri.
Il tuo recente commento razzista dimostra chiaramente che sei un ignorante e un povero di spirito, cosa peraltro normale in tutti coloro che perdono tempo a fare i complottisti invece di affrontare la realtà delle cose e rendersi davvero utile agli altri.
Non ho nessuna intenzione di perdere altro tempo con gente della tua risma e pertanto non lo farò.Don't you understand?
Sorry...try to study italian language... I guess two or three years should be enough... but in your case maybe I'm wrong... -
suspicious
newbite
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 29
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 2 2009 7:17:45
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EffeCi - 30 minutes ago »
but at least he's only an Italian
As I always say, racism is the last poor resource of idiots...I totally agree with you, EffeCi. That was totally uncalled for. Hey, my kids are French as well as American...why not start on that, too! Merde. When will people learn to respect other PEOPLE?
I would like to say that so many people came to my aid to help me including EffeCi and David during the time that I thought I had BBs. They were kind and respectful (as it should be). They have NEVER been disrespectful to others even when I feel they would have been justified in being so.
I respect them as professionals and more importantly, I respect them as people.
I am sure that I am not alone. -
EffeCi - 23 minutes ago »
but at least he's only an Italian
As I always say, racism is the last poor resource of idiots...Oh you utter bloody fool. You like to give it out, but you don't like it coming back at you do you? I couldn't care less what race you are, as long as you're didn't get your Phd in the UK. It's clear what I was saying and if it isn't, it's because you just want to find another line of attack, It's all you know.
Resorting to political correctness is probably not bottom of the barrel for you. You know what some of you lot behave like, a bunch of insecure schoogirls, who make fun out of others in order to feel better about yourselves. It's pathetic, it really is.
The fact is EffiCi, you nearly always resort to fallacies, yet you want us all to believe you're a credible scientist. If you want to represent yourself better, learn to refute and not attack the man. I could go through a whole bunch of some of the PCO responses here and find as many snipes and attempts to ridicule as there are valid points. Just look at the little jibes at me on in this thread and others, If you want to take the moral high ground, then learn to argue the points and not attack the man.
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suspicious
newbite
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 29
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 2 2009 7:25:43
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Muddy...buddy,
How else should we take that comment (that he is only Italian). Because, I am a little confused. Enlighten me, please.
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suspicious - 3 minutes ago »
Muddy...buddy,
How else should we take that comment (that he is only Italian). Because, I am a little confused. Enlighten me, please.Read the above post and mind your own business.
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This site and forum is simply a harcore cliche of professionas in the pest control business and their followers. It's a road to nowhere for me to carry on here, as anything I say from now on will be used to demonise me, as you do with others who won't tow the party line, like Jason. Beside there are other site with good information, not run by PCO's. I've had my say. I'm sure, given the partisan nature of the site, I wont' be the last to flag up the obvious. I must say it's been quite an eye opener, but this forum is just adding to my stress levels. So this will be my last post.
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suspicious
newbite
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 29
Posted 4 months ago
Thu Jul 2 2009 7:58:24
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muddy - 27 minutes ago »
suspicious - 3 minutes ago »
Muddy...buddy,
How else should we take that comment (that he is only Italian). Because, I am a little confused. Enlighten me, please.Read the above post and mind your own business.
I did read it.
And, I read what I read.
You can't change that.
Oh...and why do I need to mind my own business?This is a public forum, right?
Grow up!
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Aris,
Could your clothes survive a run through the dryer? If the dryer can reach high enough temperatures, and if the machine is not overloaded, this can work. It's not necessary to wash the clothes beforehand. You could test the dryer temperature with a thermometer during the run. More info here:
bedbugger FAQ on dryer, et al.
EffeCi,
I sincerely enjoy reading your posts and think you make such knowledgeable and generous contributions to this forum.
I hope individual ridiculous statements don't discourage you from participating. Not to excuse their bad behavior, but I can only hope that crazy stress from bedbugs makes people behave in erratic and illogical ways and that this is not typical of them.
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Effeci,
You are a valued member of this forum.
Muddy, racism and being a major jerk will get you banned. Ciao!
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I am sort of in two minds as to whether it is sensible to reply to the post above but I think it is important information so I will.
I offer advice and support to people where I can, as much information as I can make available I do via this forum and my two websites, one based on my companies services and one based on pure public information. I am happy to chat to people on the phone and offer advice and possible solutions where I can, for this I don't charge.
If I need to leave my office, travel and treat well these things cost money. I now you are not so naive as to not appreciate this but you might not appreciate the extent of those costs. Before I make profit on anything i do I have to recoup the portion of the cost of the rent of a 2,000 sq ft facility in central London, not cheap, I have to cover the insurance, I have £10,000,000 pounds worth of cover to reflect the fact that we work with and store quantities of industrial chemicals that have risks and hazards. I have a fully operational decon facility that requires power, more than you average home would consume in a month per week, it all costs.
Now what will really shock you is that from time to time I have found ways of deferring costs for deserving people, ex forces retired people, people on low income even people just down on their luck. At times I have also traded skills with people, they cover my basics out of pocket expenses and they use their skills to help me.
I would however say that given the argumentative approach you have taken and the fact that you clearly do not respect peoples field experience and skills I would be highly unlikely to extend that offer to you. I have no need to make these offers I do so because I know those people will pay that favour on and will help someone else who is down on their luck.
Given the subsequent goading of someone who I respect as a fellow bed bug enthusiast and what others see as racist remarks I have to say I could not comprehend extending any offer to work with you.
I have met over 22,000 people with bed bug issues in the last 7 years and I have to say there have been a number who have displayed these behavioral patterns, some out of frustration of the situation they are in and others because they appear to treat everyone like that. It is very hard to help such people because they seem to have a desire to argue over every last point or procedure and process which ultimately distracts you from getting on with the job and makes it feel like you are running through treacle backwards.
I sincerely hope that you do manage to resolve your bed bug issue on your own and if you honestly feel that my original offer of assistance was purely made with money in mind then I am sorry that was your perception because it was certainly not my motive.
Regards,
David
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I hope individual ridiculous statements don't discourage you from participating.
No risks of that, don't worry... ;-)
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We may have to do a Bed Bug calender though to cheer him up but which month should he be?
I am picking March before anyone else nominates and yes its been a long day.
I do like the idea though.
David
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September!!!
(yes, I'm a Virgin and, yes, I had a long day too...) -
September: I suspect you mean Virgo I think the other word is in dispute since some of us have seen your daughter.
LOL.
David
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Lol... of course is Virgo... it's a demonstration I had a long day (just back from last work of today... ehm...yesterday...)
...in italian we use the same word for virgin and virgo... that's why I mistranslated...
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My PCO recommended putting clothes that can't be washed in the trunk of my car or to put them in black bags and put them in the sun for the whole day. Summer time in NY is pretty hot. My temperature monitor hits 100 degrees at 9AM when the Sun hits it directly.
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buggyinsocal
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Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,130
Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 0:08:15
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lgvk,
I live in sunny, hot, and dry southern California. So does spideyjg.
Both of us live within a few hours' drive of some very hot, sunny, and dry deserts where the ambient air temperature in the summer routinely reaches 120 degrees.
Here's the thing.
Thermal treatment is very tricky to pull off successfully. The temperature has to reach the thermal death point in all parts of the container you're talking about. There cannot be any pocket of insulation inside the bag that doesn't hit the thermal death point.
The problem with trying to self treat with heat--using a car (I would toss the PCO's advice out on that alone. Trust me--the interior of the car with all that sun coming in through the windows routinely gets much warmer than the trunk in most cars. The fact that the PCO didn't even mention that is enough for me to take that advice with a grain of salt.) or the sun and the sidewalk--is that you do not have complete control over the environment, and it's very hard to monitor the temperature inside those containers without running the risk of letting bed bugs free.
And that's another risk--if you don't seal the bags in the car super and completely air tight? You could end up with bed bugs in your car. Sure, most parts of the car go over 120 degrees. I measured the temp approximately in my car at 140 max on a hot day here at the coast. But can you guarantee that every single nook and cranny, deep in the upholstered seats of your car or in a nice shady interior corner of your trunk--all reach 140 degrees?
If you can't, and really, no one can, what you're doing by putting possibly infested items into the car is dramatically increasing the risk of infesting your car with bed bugs. It's rare to get a car infested, but once you do, about the only way to reliably treat it it by having the car Vikaned. At that point, any money you would have saved is totally gone and then some.
Spideyjg is the King of Caulk. He's not afraid of do it yourself. He and I both live near an idea climate to use if do it yourself heat treatment was a reliable method.
But it's not just reliable enough to recommend. In fact, it can do more harm than good if you infest your car or allow bugs to spread to neighbors with stuff on sidewalks or balconies.
If it's a financial concern, consider buying a Packtite. Expensive up front, yes, but once you own one, you can treat as many items as you want.
If the clothes and other fabric items are clean, they can be dried without being washed. Things that have to be dry cleaned can be run through a Packtite, and given what my local dry cleaner charges? The Packtite vs. dry cleaning is a total bargain.
If you're willing to risk infesting your car or allowing them to escape while they're in bags outside, and you're okay with the treatment not necessarily eliminating all the bugs, you're welcome to try those methods.
But what I definitely wouldn't do is try to self treat in black bags or the car and be confident that that method had absolutely eliminated all bugs and eggs. The chances of that working 100% are just too slim for my comfort.
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DrFrank
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Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 122
Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 0:23:16
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I did an experiment: I put a packed bag of luggage inside a black plastic garbage bag, and parked my car in the sun. The temperature in the car reached 140F pretty quickly, but the temperature in between the bag and the seat never made it to 120F.
Consequently, I don't rely on the car in the sun technique.
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How about the other part: putting items in a black bag, tying them up and leaving them in the Sun? Would that not work?
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buggyinsocal
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Posts: 1,130
Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 2:20:43
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Since the interior of a car is always going to be warmer than being in the direct sun and not in a car, probably not.
I know it's tempting to want desperately to find a solution that anyone has access to that's cost efficient and allows you to fight back on your own.
Trust me, if someone finds one, I'll be the first person in line singing its praises.
If you want to use heat to kill bed bugs in items that can't go into the dryer, and you're not treating your whole residence with thermal, your best bet is the Packtite.
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Aris
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 10:55:19
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I am thankful for the information that Muddy posted in response to the original question (although I am sorry the discussion turned into something of a verbal brawl).
I am not a professional, so my opinion is worth about nada.
Having said that, I am not convinced that using the tightly-enclosed container in the sun shouldn't be considered an effective alternative option for those who can't afford other thermal treatment methods.
For using a car the two objections are that it's too hard to be sure a killing temperature is reached in all parts of the items to be treated and that it's too hard to ensure that all of the bed bugs remain confined within the container.
Don't those same arguments apply to the PackTite?
It's possible to monitor temperatures within the collection of items being treated using a thermometer with a wire probe (such as is supplied with the PackTite) that costs less than $10, or with a thermometer with a wireless probe. (Or using several thermometers, if you want to be extra careful and monitor various points within the collection of items being treated.) If you find that your treatment setup fails to reach and maintain the target temperature for an adequate amount of time, you can always fall back to the other treatment options that you were trying to avoid.
In terms of confining the bed bugs to the container: Why can't the contents be sealed in large ziplock bags? The seal of the openings can be reinforced with a very strong and broad adhesive tape. Double or triple bagging the contents can be used if you are worried that one bag runs too high a risk of puncture. Or you can use contractor bags. Or sealed bags placed in Rubbermaid-type bins that have themselves been very carefully sealed. Or a combination of containers. Again, the temperature can be monitored to be sure that the target temperature can be reached and maintained within the container(s).
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Aris
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 10:58:01
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DrFrank - 10 hours ago »
I did an experiment: I put a packed bag of luggage inside a black plastic garbage bag, and parked my car in the sun. The temperature in the car reached 140F pretty quickly, but the temperature in between the bag and the seat never made it to 120F.
Consequently, I don't rely on the car in the sun technique.Obviously this treatment approach depends entirely on your particular situation. Summer temperatures vary widely. And from my experience, that's probably also true with the thermal insulating properties of various car makes and little things like leather or vinyl vs fabric upholstery.
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Aris
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 11:00:10
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lgvk - 10 hours ago »
How about the other part: putting items in a black bag, tying them up and leaving them in the Sun? Would that not work?Jeff White has discussed this topic in a video at BedBugCentralTV.
http://tv.bedbugcentral.com/index.php/2009/07/bbctv-diy-1-using-the-heat-of-the-sun-to-kill-bed-bugs -
spideyjg
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 11:17:26
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Quoting my own self from earlier....
Don't make me tell how I did use ambient heat for treatment of items. Albeit I did take measurements and it was in a desert at 100+F
It can work but clothes do insulate quite well so it presents challenges. People want definitive times but that is impossible. Target temp of heating stuff is 120+ although thermal death begins lower it is more consistent above 120.
If you can monitor the temp pack the stuff very thin and try it. Stick a big fuggin bag of laundry in the back of a car and you ain't gonna achieve the goal.
Success, possible. Failure, aka bugs survive, too possible unless monitored. Catastrophe, bugs escape into your car, possible.
Not worth it!
Trying to do clothing like this is madness. Use a dang dryer.
Again and again, if you must do this due to your circumstances, pack the stuff very thin, in an absolute airtight bag, to minimize insulation, elevate it so the hot air surrounds it, and flip it often so the sun hits it direct. This will increase the chances of success, but don't come crying to us if it fails because it very likely can.
Pack the stuff airtight and store it in a hot place to speed up starvation after your baking attempt.
Jim
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DrFrank
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 11:41:14
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Aris - 37 minutes ago »
Obviously this treatment approach depends entirely on your particular situation. Summer temperatures vary widely. And from my experience, that's probably also true with the thermal insulating properties of various car makes and little things like leather or vinyl vs fabric upholstery.
Has anyone actually measured a successful kill cycle in a packed bag in a hot car?
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buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 months ago
Thu Jul 30 2009 14:20:18
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I think Dr. Frank got to the core of what I've been trying to say.
The Packtite is specifically designed to raise the temperature inside the unit in a very controlled way. It's been engineered to keep the bugs from crawling out. We already know from encasements that some zippers are better than others at keeping bugs in (or out as the case may be.) The Packtite took all of that into account when it was put together. It's also got a way of increasing the heat to take the heat up to a certain temp at a certain speed, which is a vital component of reliable thermal treatment methods.
Is it impossible to kill bed bugs by putting infested items into tightly sealed plastic bags and then subjecting those bags to heat in a car or in direct sunlight? No, it's not. Of course, it's also possible to kill bed bugs by spraying them with rubbing alcohol or stomping on them.
But are any of those practices that I can in good conscience recommend to other people as a reliable way to kill all bed bugs?
The answer again is no.
I'm not saying, and have never said, that putting bed bug infested items in a plastic bag and exposing that bag to heat (in direct sun or in a car in the sun) won't kill some bed bugs and some eggs.
But there is a trifecta of three characteristics of bed bugs that makes them as a pest hard to eradicate:
1. They're stealthy buggers who will flee plenty of things deadly to them if they sense them (heat, some pesticides, big scary humans who might smash them. . . ).
2. Their eggs are bloody hard to kill. Heat'll do it reliably, but to use heat to do it, you have to get all the eggs, no matter how well hidden and how deeply insulated those eggs are. The eggs are also usually practically superglued in place, so mechanical removal with something like a vacuum or scrubbing often isn't enough to get all of them.
3. The smallest stages are very, very hard to spot with the naked eye, and since removing 100% of bugs and eggs is necessary to get rid of them, finding all of them is necessary for success.
So how does the plastic bag in heat (sun or car) measure up on those fronts.
1. People, esp. panicky people, will likely overpack the bags placed into cars and sunny spots. That gives bugs plenty of insulation to hide in. In addition, one of the primary challenges faced with any thermal treatment of bed bugs is getting the heat to circulate evenly. The Packtite has been designed to deal with that problem. Thermal remediations use ducts and fans and different kinds of heaters and very close monitoring to deal with that problem. Trying to recreate that circulation of heat on your own in a car without letting the heat out or create cooler spots in the bag? Really friggin' challenging.
Therefore, I can't suggest do it yourself treatment in a car or a sunny spot as reliable.
(I should also point out since I just spent some quality time outside, here in sunny so cal, that there are these pesky things like clouds that have a nasty habit of obscuring the sun in a highly unpredictable pattern. That also contributes to the inability to control the temperature in a reliable way.)
2. Well pretty much what I said in point 1 applies to the eggs, except that the eggs don't move. However, if the items in that bag have eggs and are in a cold spot? Same problem.
3. After you've "treated" the items in the bags or in the car, is the average bed bug fighter going to be able to inspect the items effectively enough to catch any eggs or first stage instars that didn't die?
Look, I did the suitcase in the car in the black plastic bag thing. I did that after I'd sprayed the ever living crap out of it with 91% isopropyl alcohol.
I still had the PCO completely inspect it before I used it to pack my stuff for the trip I was leaving for on the day of my treatment. Why? Because I didn't trust the other methods to work 100% even that early along on the learning curve.
At the time, the Packtite wasn't available. It wasn't an option. If it had been, I'd have snapped it up in a minute.
If people want to try putting items in plastic bags and heating the items in cars or in a sunny spot, by all means, experiment away.
But keep in mind that even finding such items to be free of bugs isn't any guarantee that the method works. The items might not have bugs to begin with.
What I absolutely, positively would never do is trust that any item so treated was definitely free of bed bugs. And personally, knowing what I know now, I would never risk getting bed bugs into the car where an infestation is super hard to deal with.
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Aris
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Jul 31 2009 11:06:34
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Even for those who are fans of the PackTite, there are some items that won't fit inside.
What to do with my 38-inch-long electronic keyboard, for instance? -
buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Jul 31 2009 11:45:56
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there are some items that won't fit inside.
Well, yes. And there are items that fit inside but that I would never put through a Packtite (my laptop, for example.)
That's why a comprehensive treatment plan with a PCO is so important. There is no one magic bullet that will kill bed bugs in every item in a home setting.
Certain items--large items, electronic items, delicate items--are tough to treat. We really do have very limited options with them. Risk damaging them, put them into tightly sealed storage for 18 months, or wait out the home treatment plan.
I'm not saying I'm happy about that fact. I still have a few items in ziplocks that I didn't trust to DDVP strips but that couldn't be in the house for thermal treatment.
And every person is different. Perhaps you can't live without your keyboard for 18 months. (I know I couldn't live without my laptop for that long.)
I'm not saying that the Packtite is perfect. (And, a reminder--I don't own a Packtite since it came out after I was already financially wiped out from my bed bug incident.)
What I am saying is that self-treating items with thermal is risky in its own way.
For any item that can be treated in a Packtite, the evidence suggests that the Packtite is a much more reliable option than trying to self-treat with thermal.
For any item that you can't treat with a Packtite, you're stuck with a lousy set of options that a good PCO can help you make the best of.
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Aris
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Jul 31 2009 14:24:48
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Well, I do own a PackTite, and I think it has it's place in the treatment arsenal (in fact, I wish I had invented it). It's summer now, but it won't be forever, so the sun treatment method is only useful for a few weeks out of the year.
If the choice for a large object like my keyboard is between throwing it out, living without it for 18 months, or treating it in the sun, it gets treated in the sun.
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buggyinsocal
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Posted 3 months ago
Fri Jul 31 2009 17:06:27
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Actually, where I live, the availability of high temps and sun lasts for a lot more than a few weeks each year. We hit the 90s in May for a few days most years. Ditto with September. And when the Santa Anas kick in, we get those November days with humidity less than 10% and temps in the 90s and relenting sun because of complete lack of a marine layer always remind me.
True, I don't think I've ever seen the temps get above the 70s in December through February, but here, esp. if you're willing to drive, it's not unheard of to be able to access 100 degree temps in March in the desert.
On a note more relevant to a much broader swath of people, Aris, you posted about trying to heat treat several items on your own because they weren't easily treatable using other methods. If people want to try that, so long as they don't count on such treatments being effective and don't accidentally infest their cars in the process, I'm all for it.
But my replies over the last day or so have been to someone whose PCO suggested this as a reliable form of treatment. I'd be doing a disservice to anyone reading this if I said that using the car to heat treat items is a reliable form of treatment. It might work. It might not. If you bag things tightly enough that the bugs can't escape into the car, it's not hurting anything.
But saying that it works reliably to people when they might act as if that's true, and thereby cause harm by reinfesting their home or someone else's does cause harm, and that's what I object to--not the attempt but putting forth a technique as foolproof or more reliable than it actually is.
And even for people who want to experiment knowing all the risks, the more info they have on the challenges, the greater the chance that they are going to be successful.
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