Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Introductions
Do-it-yourself PackTite, and Other Things
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willson
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 21 2010 22:25:26
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How terrible this is.
A simple introduction. We discovered bedbugs this past Thursday night. We all went on lock down. Without doing thorough research, we threw out a mattress and a couch. We scheduled an exterminator. They're coming on Wednesday. I've done a lot of washing and a lot of drying and have bagged what I could. But really, a PackTite just seems infinitely easier.
I've already spent $100 on a Protect-A-Bed encasement (a worthwhile investment, as there's no real way I could make one of those myself.)
I suppose my roommates and I could all break down and buy a PackTite, but I don't see why we would when all we'd really need is some thick cardboard, a probe thermometer, and some sort of heating element.
The heating element is the thing I'm still working on figuring out. We have a small space heater, so I might try and use that in addition to a fan, but it's on the small side, and I just don't think it'll be able to keep at 120.
Some sort of electric heating element perhaps? I'm sure that's what PackTite uses. I've just no idea where I would get my hands on one. I'm not even sure I know what terms I would use if I were to try and describe what I need to an employee at Home Depot.
You all seem like an incredibly knowledgeable group, and this is why I've come to you. If anybody has any experience with making their own PackTite setup, I would be very appreciative.
Also, I might ask about this as well: we have a four-bedroom apartment, and one of the bedrooms it turns out seems to be the ground-zero of this whole thing. The mattress and box-spring seem to be somewhat riddled with them. We haven't seen many adults (one live and one dead in all) but we've definitely seen eggs and we've definitely seen little babies.
As I mentioned before, the exterminator comes on Wednesday, but I'm still freaking out because this bed and box-spring are just sort of sitting there, and the person using the room (it's being subletted until the end of the month to him) hasn't been bitten and doesn't seem to care that he's still sleeping there on top of all those creepy crawlies.
It's a tough situation because he's paying for this room but this room has bedbugs that he doesn't seem to mind. I can't just tell him to get out and sleep in the living room.
My question is this: what can I do until Wednesday when the exterminator comes? Anything? Would anything be worth my time and trouble? Encasements are expensive and, like I said, the owner of the mattress is not yet here to buy one. Should I take a hair dryer to the whole thing? Would that be of any use?
I just hate the idea of this guy sleeping on this bed then going everywhere else in the apartment taking all those little things with him as he goes.
My apologies for longwindedness, but I haven't been able to sleep at night since Thursday.
Any and all help is appreciated.
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cilecto
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 21 2010 23:04:20
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Are you doing what you're doing on advice of the PCO? Has s/he inspected your place and confirmed that it's bed bugs and the extent of the infestation? Have you ruled out mistaken identity? Are you coordinating the mattress encasement with your PCO's treatment? Are you encasing your box spring (which entomologists tell us is more important that encasing the mattress)?
If you're working without a guide, a strategy a plan, what has it cost you?
- Couch, which might have been save-able
- Mattress, which most definitely was save-able
- Laundry, which may not have been necessary"Trying to re-invent the wheel" will cost you what? And that's if you do it effectively and safely.
How about reading a comprehensive guide written by scientists, from universities? Check out the Resourcespage on this site and read a comprehensive practice guide like the U of Minn Guide.
Between now and the PCO visit, I'd do the following:
- Follow PCO instructions
- Treat your wounds with an Rx or OTC drug, if necessary.
- Take steps to prevent spreading bugs to your visitors and prevent spreading bugs to the places you visit.
- Try and treat yourself well. Enjoy a walk outside in the cool evening air. Savor a nice drink. Hug your significant other.These things are a PITA but they won't kill you. You've probably had them for a while and you've survived oblivious. You'll make it through this.
Welcome.
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willson
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 3:43:28
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Are you doing what you're doing on advice of the PCO? Has s/he inspected your place and confirmed that it's bed bugs and the extent of the infestation? Have you ruled out mistaken identity? Are you coordinating the mattress encasement with your PCO's treatment? Are you encasing your box spring (which entomologists tell us is more important that encasing the mattress)?
---We've only scheduled an appointment for this coming Wednesday.
No one has inspected our place but us, but we are 100 percent certain we do indeed have an infestation. So, nobody has told me anything about encasements, I only know what I know from spending hours and hours researching and finding out everything I can. I have already ordered an encasement for my mattress that I plan on using as soon as I can after the PCO comes.
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If you're working without a guide, a strategy a plan, what has it cost you?
- Couch, which might have been save-able
- Mattress, which most definitely was save-able
- Laundry, which may not have been necessary
---We got the couch for free and the cat had done a number on it anyway. We don't miss it.
The mattress was not my mattress. It was my roommate's decision to throw it out. From the reading I've done though, it seems like dragging the two items through the
The laundry is what the PCO had told us to do. Launder everything and put it into plastic bags until after they come.
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"Trying to re-invent the wheel" will cost you what? And that's if you do it effectively and safely.
---Well it isn't really what it would cost me but what it would save me. If I don't have to spend $300 dollars, I don't want to spend $300.
From what I can tell, a PackLite seems like a very useful thing to have, and I'm convinced that I can build my own. I was only asking for others' advice because I bet somebody out there has some.
Also, I don't consider it really reinventing the wheel so much as I consider it making one for less money.
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How about reading a comprehensive guide written by scientists, from universities? Check out the Resourcespage on this site and read a comprehensive practice guide like the U of Minn Guide.
---I am educating myself as fast as I possibly can, and so far I'd say I've done a pretty good job.
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Between now and the PCO visit, I'd do the following:
...
- Try and treat yourself well. Enjoy a walk outside in the cool evening air. Savor a nice drink. Hug your significant other.
---This is some of the best advice I've heard. I'm going around trying to find as many experiences with positive outcomes as I can. So many people make it seem like once they're introduced to your life they never leave, but it seems, or at least I hope, that this isn't true.
I'm still curious though. That one mattress and one bedframe that are clearly infested, should we do something about it before the PCO comes? As I mentioned earlier, we haven't searched the -entire- mattress or the -entire- box spring, but on one corner of the mattress there is from what I can tell spots of excrement all over about six square inches, and there was a squished adult between the mattress and that mattress lip that goes all the way around it. I got a little too grossed out to investigate further. Previously we've also seen eggs and a nymph moving around or whatever you call the little babies.
The reason it is an immediate concern is because the person using that mattress is subletting the room, and he doesn't seem to care at all. He hasn't been bitten, but there is something extremely off-putting seeing him sleep on that mattress every night then walk around the apartment to do whatever, tracking those things everywhere he goes.
So I don't know what to tell him, and I don't really know what I should do in this situation. Granted, in three days we'll have the extermination, so maybe I'm doing all of this worrying for nothing, but then again, maybe I'm not.
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your host
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 4:17:15
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I would not try to replicate a Packtite with cardboard and space heaters -- it seems like a potential fire hazard.
However, there is a protocol developed at University of Florida which you may be able to follow to heat treat furnishings. You can read about it here - download the manual (this is also in our resources page).
These protocols must be followed with care. I would definitely advise against trying to rig up your own system without following a well-charted plan. People have burned their homes down trying to eliminate bed bugs. I can't tell you what David James does with his materials but I do know the Packtite does not contain an unmodified space heater. The unit is designed not to catch fire.
As for the apt., if someone is coming in three days, I would let them deal with the infested mattress. Keep in mind that moving a mattress through your home and out the door can lead to spreading the problem further.
And keep in mind experts tell us 30%-50% of people don't react to bed bug bites. Your roommate may be one of them, it's very common. If it is bed bugs (and it sounds like you have seen a bed bug), do not assume he is not being bitten.
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 4:53:48
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If the PCO is coming soon, and the roommate is not having a problem with the situation, then I would leave things be. There's a real benefit for not changing habits right now. Your roommate is acting as bait to keep the bugs localized for now. This is a good thing.
As to replicating the PackTite I think you'll find that it will cause almost as much to jury rig something with space heaters as to buy the official PackTite. Space heaters simply cut out long before the 120oF level (I know, I tried this). If you disable the thermostat and run it in a very compressed volume, with improper ventilation, lined with cardboard, there is a very real chance of fire.
I agree with NoBugs that building a larger chamber as per the U of Florida plans is a safer option (and has the side benefit of being able to accommodate things like couches and mattresses). This is because that chamber is lined with fireproof materials and the ventilation prevents the kind of hot spots that increase ignition risk.
Eve
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willson
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 5:59:12
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Very good advice from both of you--thank you.
As far as the DIY PackTite is concerned: space heater is almost a misnomer. The thing itself is small and meant to be used bedside I believe and has a fan built in to it.
I have made ovens out of tin foil, cardboard boxes, and very hot coals. I was car camping, and I wanted cookies; they were delicious. I am confident in my abilities to put something together that can get a contained space to 130 degrees. 130 degrees is -not that hot-. If I were to find a bigger space heater necessary, I would plan on having some sort fan and duct work to get the heat into the box.
And cheaper space heaters just do not have thermometers that would turn the unit off. If it isn't just on or off, it's usually high, low, and off.
I dunno. It just doesn't seem that complicated to me. I'm not -that- stupid.
Also, that UoF manual is great. Thank you.
And finally, so I should just leave the mattress be? I wasn't planning on moving it, but you wouldn't recommend heating/steaming it in some way to at least lessen their numbers?
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 6:22:09
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You're right. 130oF is not that hot. As to the comment about the space heaters, I tried to use one that was a straight "On/Off" design to get an area to 113oF and it would shut off at about 92oF every time (I used an indoor/outdoor thermometer set up to measure the temps). These days it seems that space heaters (whatever the dial says) have an automatic shutoff that is not sufficient to heat anything much. I just wanted to save you the hassle of heaters that simply won't keep going.
As to your mattress. By all means, if you can, you should try to decrease the numbers. If you have a source of focussed heat that works (I used a steam iron), or a vacuum (preferably with a bag that you can chuck into an exterior dumpster right away), or a contact killer (I use 99% alcohol that I get in the linament section of the drug store, others use Murphy's oil), or smush them with your finger (KQ likes that method) that would be good. If the infestation is so bad you can see it, then there would be no problem finding proof for the PCO's eyes even if you cut the numbers.
The PCO's job will be mostly to set up a residual chemical perimeter so every mission to invade your night time space is a kamikaze one. Your roommate might be worth his weight in gold acting as bait if the bugs truly don't bother him. (There's an article in the New York Times about rich people who hire people to act as bait.) The PCO will probably also be using some sort of dust as a semi-permanent residual.
Eve
<Your tale of the cookies reminds me of the Easy Bake oven I had as a kid. Was different times.> -
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 8:55:32
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All your space heaters will cut off. At least every one we tried, and we tried them all when developing packtite, will shut down. Thermal fuses and microswitches are super cheap and they all have them. Even the U of Florida model will result in many shutdowns and heaters that need to be repaired as I have had people ask for my advice when it happened to them when they did that set up. If you disable these devices, you run a serious risk of fire or of damaging what you are trying to save, the most common experience we had when making packtite. One other big problem is you will need to design something that the bed bugs simply won't walk out of when the heat increases, unless the goal is to get them out of stuff but you don't care if they go into the room or area where you are doing this. I know what this sounds like, coming from the manfacturer and all, I just don't want you making a problem worse by starting a fire, damaging your stuff, or wasting time you could be using in the battle.
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cilecto
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 10:39:36
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> I use 99% alcohol
Eve probably meant 91%. Don't knock yourself out looking for 99%.
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 16:18:25
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No I meant 99%. I suppose it's not easily acquired everywhere, but I see it on all shelves that sell Rubbing Alcohol at about the same price. But 91% will do.
Eve
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cilecto
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 16:39:42
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Eve - 20 minutes ago »
No I meant 99%. I suppose it's not easily acquired everywhere, but I see it on all shelves that sell Rubbing Alcohol at about the same price. But 91% will do.
EveI used to find 91% readily in NYC (prefer it over 70%, why pay for water?), lately, there seems to be a run on it. Rarely notice 99%.
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Aug 22 2010 17:36:47
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I really wonder if there are a minor groundswell of lurkers who now know that this is a good contact killer and are plucking it off the shelves when they see it. It's not like this product is kept in huge quantities anywhere (just tucked in among the various liniments and such). So the pharmacists, who are liniment sellers rather than in the pesticide business, don't stock and promote the product in any mass way. In fact, there were only three bottles of the 99% when I went last and I left the last bottle for some other potential sufferer. In this age of UPCs it will be replaced but probably only to the half dozen bottles level.
Another complication is that this product is seen as a danger to local alcoholics whether rightly or wrongly. The product is actually de-natured so is only attractive to the sorts that also go for wind-shield washing fluid (which reportedly tastes better). So I suppose the pharmacist sees it as bad optics to have a pile of various percentages of alcohol. In fact, a lot of pharmacists keep the high numbers behind the shelf for this reason -- probably the same ones that keep Gravol there.
Do pharmacists wonder why there seems to be a run on this product? And come to the correct conclusion?
As contact killers go, I really like the stuff. It sprays/pours nicely into all the cracks and crevices of my futon frame. I'm not sure whether I would use it for soft stuff like the mattress. And, once it dries which it does quickly, there are no perfumy or herbally or other after scents. And it's relatively cheap. I'm a non-smoker and don't burn candles any more so I don't consider it a fire risk for the short time it is doing its nasty and then drying (it's the fumes that are the real fire risk though I'm careful not to expose the surfaces to any flame or spark at any time).
Eve
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willson
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Posted 2 years ago
Mon Aug 23 2010 19:55:29
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djames1921 - 1 day ago »
All your space heaters will cut off. At least every one we tried, and we tried them all when developing packtite, will shut down. Thermal fuses and microswitches are super cheap and they all have them. Even the U of Florida model will result in many shutdowns and heaters that need to be repaired as I have had people ask for my advice when it happened to them when they did that set up. If you disable these devices, you run a serious risk of fire or of damaging what you are trying to save, the most common experience we had when making packtite. One other big problem is you will need to design something that the bed bugs simply won't walk out of when the heat increases, unless the goal is to get them out of stuff but you don't care if they go into the room or area where you are doing this. I know what this sounds like, coming from the manfacturer and all, I just don't want you making a problem worse by starting a fire, damaging your stuff, or wasting time you could be using in the battle.It sounds like you definitely know what you're talking about.
Oh well. Even more of a challenge, I suppose!
Also, I'm wondering about trying to treat this mattress. Will spraying the alcohol kill some but send the others running? Since our subletter is still sleeping on the mattress and still providing a nice bait, I'd hate to send them scattering to places they wouldn't otherwise go.
And how bad is bad? There aren't many visible adults, but there is definitely excrement almost anywhere you could look, and several stains on the top of the mattress. The box spring has the same general pattern. It doesn't seem to me like a small infestation, but perhaps it is. I just don't have anything to which I can compare it.
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 24 2010 0:53:52
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Eve - 1 day ago »
As contact killers go, I really like the stuff. It sprays/pours nicely into all the cracks and crevices of my futon frame. I'm not sure whether I would use it for soft stuff like the mattress. And, once it dries which it does quickly, there are no perfumy or herbally or other after scents. And it's relatively cheap. I'm a non-smoker and don't burn candles any more so I don't consider it a fire risk for the short time it is doing its nasty and then drying (it's the fumes that are the real fire risk though I'm careful not to expose the surfaces to any flame or spark at any time).I'm a lot more wary of it since people have been setting their homes on fire with it.
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue Aug 24 2010 2:45:56
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Well, I enjoy fried egg sandwiches even though people set their homes on fire with grease fires and toasters also. There are many things we have to do to maintain daily life that can be dangerous. I consider what I do with the alcohol on the lower range of risk.
Eve
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bittennyc
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu Sep 2 2010 20:00:12
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What about using a blow dryer as the heating unit? Would it work to get a plastic storage tote and then cut a hole in it for the nozzle of the blow dryer? The edges of the storage tote could be sealed with duct tape and a laser thermometer could be used to tell the temperature inside the box. Of course, it might be a good idea to keep a fire extinguisher nearby when testing homemade PackTite ideas...
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu Sep 2 2010 20:02:55
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Blow dryers are even more useless than space heaters for getting a largish volume past the 100oF mark. They're designed to be used really close to the skin and hence their safety switches are even more sensitive than a space heater's.
Eve
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bittennyc
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu Sep 2 2010 20:06:58
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Oh, maybe then they'd be good for a "mini PackTite" using a shoebox size storage tote instead? Just an idea...
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bugnut
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed Sep 15 2010 10:08:44
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FYI - we made a DIY packtite that is outside (we put furniture in it) as we keep the temps under 150F the thermostats have not shut off and we run it for 4 hours between 128 and 145F That being said it is a paint in the ass to run it and we do it infrequently. Running it now to treat a new chair we bought (we threw out the sofa - don't think it was infested but hated it anyway!).
The reason we made the PT was because we already a packtite and love it and the way it works. You will not be sorry it you get one. They are easy to use and fold down when not in use.
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed Sep 15 2010 14:34:45
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Eve - 3 weeks ago »
Well, I enjoy fried egg sandwiches even though people set their homes on fire with grease fires and toasters also. There are many things we have to do to maintain daily life that can be dangerous. I consider what I do with the alcohol on the lower range of risk.
EveSorry Eve, I just saw this.
What you are doing with alcohol is, I'm sure, just fine.
The problem is that some people are not conscious of dangers, so I am wary when I hear alcohol recommended across the board, or without caveats. (I am not saying you're doing that, just that I have heard others do it.)
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed Sep 15 2010 18:31:35
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Nobugsonme - 3 hours ago »
Sorry Eve, I just saw this.
What you are doing with alcohol is, I'm sure, just fine.
The problem is that some people are not conscious of dangers, so I am wary when I hear alcohol recommended across the board, or without caveats. (I am not saying you're doing that, just that I have heard others do it.)Oh, apology accepted. In the areas that I am cautious, I can seem to be a bit extreme also (mostly physical risks like refusing to cross a street if cars are still moving or avoiding treacherous places where I might fall). And I did try to emphasize that I am not a smoker, I don't have pets or children and I don't light candles any more (stopped that a few years ago, because that *was* a real risk). For the people following at home: spraying alcohol is a minor inhalation risk but a *major* fire risk until it is absolutely thoroughly dry (and perhaps after). So if you do use my method of flooding a wooden bed frame with alcohol (especially the 99% stuff), your days of lighting bedroom candles had better be over.
But my alcohol days are over.
I've just installed my brand new bed, with a Passive BB Alert and climbups. I'm pretty sure I've dealt with the bugs, but I will now be going into "maintenance mode". I'm planning to run my Active BB Alert for the first time this weekend (under the bed, starting after dark, with me in the office working all night). Once the bugs, if they exist, have settled into their new patterns, I'll be calling in a dog (with hopefully intelligent human) to give my place an evaluation and perhaps a voids dusting (done by the human not the dog).So, hopefully, I'll be restricted here to yammering on and on about what I think maintenance mode is and whining about the absence of PackTite.
The risks of a repeat are as great as ever but I've lost the panic mode.Maintenance mode requires fewer risks than de-infesting because it's mostly resembling normal housekeeping like washers/dryers, detectors, and my Vapamore, rather than dusts and alcohol.
Eve
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BBGen0cide
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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Sep 17 2010 1:28:46
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they need to make a jumbo packtite for beds..
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MikeInMass
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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Sep 17 2010 12:11:36
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Not quite DIY, but for stuff too big to fit in PackTite I wonder if this "Portable Far Infrared Sauna with Ceramic Heater" would work for a few bucks more:
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Eve
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Posted 2 years ago
Fri Sep 17 2010 12:21:53
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MikeInMass - 8 minutes ago »
Not quite DIY, but for stuff too big to fit in PackTite I wonder if this "Portable Far Infrared Sauna with Ceramic Heater" would work for a few bucks more:Without focusing directly on that product, that is nearly exactly what I envision in the future for the large domestic furniture packtite for new infestations. I could see householders taking this out of the closet on a "spring cleaning" basis and doing up the couch and at least the twin sized beds.
Eve
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killdienow
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Feb 29 2012 20:46:59
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the heater and blower on this page seem to be used on the closet. i love this forum and this site but it is overrun with companies who have fantastic and helpful advice that are also trying to sell their product.
our desperate situations help us 'throw a little money at the problem' but it'd be nice to see what homeade options there are for people who can't spend 300 dollars on something that seems a little overpriced for what it is. -
killdienow
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Feb 29 2012 20:51:38
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sorry! link!:
http://www.harborfreight.com/heater-attachment-for-portable-blower-93272.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-blower-with-variable-speed-dial-93231.html
i believe these are what the closet use but this is used outside the closet.
the timer and temp guages are pretty easy to get anywhere.
the wires seem to just stick out of the packtite so there is no magic trick to avoiding that hole i suppose.
i wire rack plus a soft piece of expandable luggage?
any ideas?
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Feb 29 2012 21:16:49
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Hi,
There is a long path to be walked between a pile of components and a system thr works each time and every time. I know the development testing on PackTite's is about 12 months for each model so far.
With the systems I have developed we generally test for 2 years before releasing them and to fat one of them would have bought me a Hanhatten apartment with a decent view.
This site tends to shy away from supporting anything that had not been fully tested and has data to support the fact that it works. Although people can with a little bit of know how construct something the reality is the level of testing needed to be 100% sure it works 100% of the time would last longer than most people would wish to have an infestation.
I would actually say that this site is a lot better about answering questions, supporting people, confirming sample identifications and just being there to support people than you have given it credit for.
The time that professionals put in to helping people with no financial gain would shock most, certainly if I was not the boss I would be told off for how much time I give.
I hope you see this as an alternative perspective.
David
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theyareoutthere
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Feb 29 2012 21:20:34
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I was writing this as David Cain posted and a lot of what I'm said is what he said. I agree that it's expensive but there is a lot of testing that goes into it. It's also very, very easy to use, which is why I got it (effective and easy). I don't make a ton per hour, but this is much easier to use and I can do other things and check up on it. I understand that it is too expensive for a lot of people who are dealing with BBs.
It's a great website. I guess I have a different view. There is lots of free advice that is good. If inventors don't recoup their investment (for every 10 inventions, one MAY work) and the time for testing, there won't be any incentive to invent. I don't think these guys are making A-Rod type money...the ones who do have outrageous treats here and there work 16 hours a day (and I don't)...I'm from the US so I know they could lose their shirts, too through legal fees patents,, etc. if there is a solar flare tomorrow and all BBs die (wishful thinking on my part)...
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Feb 29 2012 21:24:06
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Disclaimer, I make the packtite and the packtite closet.
Here is the problem and it has always been the problem, cool spots. Areas that don't get to temp inside. You can have 180 f in a space but if you have even the smallest area at 110 f then they will find it and survive. This behavior of finding cool spots is much more prevalent when convective heat is used (no air flow), so if you decide to build your own and can eliminate all cool spots, make sure you have some air flow/movement, which you will undoubtedly need to eliminate cool spots anyway. The final piece is temp/time. Npma guidelines are 113 f for seven hours, 118 for an hour and a half, 120 is for 45 minutes. If you make your own and the internal temp of your items, or the temp of your coolest spot only gets to 115 f, you'll need to run the unit basically all day. If you want to make your own, plan on testing/modifying for a while, it won't be a weekend project. What scares me for people building there own is not just safety, but people who have a unit that is mostly right, gets to killing temps in many areas, but not in a few one inch squares. Seems like it works, feels like it works, but I would hate for them to find out the hard way that it didn't work. Once again I make packtite so you can infer what you wish about possible bias.
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