Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Reader questions (do not fit into other categories)
Do forums like these just breed paranoia?
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Absurdity101
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 18
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 13:45:51
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I've had a hard time mentally with the bed bugs, as I'm sure many of you here can relate to. And I do think it's important to have knowledge of what's going on.
But I find when I read about this topic extensively on the Internet, including going through old threads in forums like these, I end up feeling far so much worse, and my thoughts start get very dark, inflated and obsessive. And my behavior follows suit. I've developed some absurd rituals that probably aren't doing much for the bedbug problem aside from giving me a false sense of security.
At the end of the day, everyone (including myself) probably needs to get some perspective. These are just bugs; bugs have been around since the beginning of time, before humans. And these particular bugs will not spread disease or harm us. They're mostly just irritating. Chances are many of us have had encounters with bedbugs in the past in our lives without even realizing it.
I'm not saying ignore them, I'm not saying let the problem grow worse, but I don't know... at some point we've got to keep our minds on the bigger picture and not let these things dictate all of our thoughts and actions. This life we have is short -- how much time can we really waste on these stupid things??
Just sharing my thoughts. I'd appreciate other perspectives, too.
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lieutenantdan
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Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 14:26:07
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First of all if you do not eradicate them from your home you run the risk of them taking over. Although it is said for now that they do not spread disease I think that the possibility exists that they may in fact spread disease and if not now than in the future. If you let them take over your home you can end up being eaten alive. These bugs may easily develop into the hundreds if not thousands. People before us battled them and now we do. I am not one for giving up on anything and I will not give up on my war with bed bugs. It is easy for one to view many things as being obsessive. A person that constantly works long hours, one that listens to many hours of I-Pod or sits time and time again in front of a computer or watches too much TV or plays too much computer/video games, drinks too much alcohol, spends too much time sailing or riding a bike etc... who decides what amount of time spent on something is too much. With these bugs I believe that the issue is a priority and they must be eradicated from your home for health reasons. What next, get a dog and dog dumps in the house so why bother cleaning it up. It is just poop. What a waste of time picking up dog poop. Brushing your teeth and shaving can be considered a waste of time, doing dishes and vacuuming, going to the dentist or doctor, driving a car or taking a plane can be a waste of time. I do not understand your point. Do you enjoy having blood sucking parasites feast on you? What about roaches? Maybe you can acquire a roach and mouse infestation at the same time. Would that justify clean up and extermination? Some have bad reactions to the bites and loose sleep.
To me it is a no-brainer. We live in a civilized society and there are rules and the rules say insects, mice and blood sucking parasites get out of our homes, this is called being responsible. We are not cave men living in caves. Buck up my friend your not alone in this. This is truly a surreal situation battling these creatures but ones gotta do what ones gotta do and that is to fight these things until they are out of your sanctuary and take precautions that they may never come back and if so you will be on top of the situation and not the other way around. After a while you gain more control
of the situation and it gets easier, it then becomes part of the everyday routine of life. This is one thing that comes to mind and that is that maybe you are a person of leisure and maybe a bit lazy. I just cannot believe the "just bugs" statement how anyone can think that way is beyond my comprehension and Absurdity that statement is truly absurd. Do not forget that a bed bug infestation is in fact costly and I for one do not enjoy loosing a large some of money that I worked very hard to acquire just because I was too lazy to nip it in the bud. -
Hi,
Interesting point.
I have had a number of BedBugger readers and posters as clients over the years, so it has worked for and others I have actually banned from read websites as part of my treatment strategy. Yes I did just say that, if I feel part of a successful treatment and ensuring that people return to normal life is to do that then I will make it a condition of treatment.
Communities and online boards can really be of help to some. They illustrate the fact that ANYONE can be affected by bed bugs and also the fact that not all infestations are the same.
On the whole I think they do more good than harm although there of course a few people out there that need to put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard at times.
Having bed bugs affects people in many different ways, some cope better than others as we all do with many different aspects of life.
The only major problem is that people who have found successful solutions often go on to lead normal lives and never visit the forums again which is why there is always an imbalance between sufferers and the resolved.
For the most part though without sites like this many people who still be suffering unaware of the options out there for treatment.
David
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Absurdity101
newbite
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 18
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 14:38:07
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lieutenantdan,
I do respect your perspective. Look, I wrote this post because I am slowly losing my mind because of these f*cking bugs, and I want a way to get my sanity back. The only way I can find to temporary restore sanity -- and escape from some of the obsessive thoughts and behaviors I've been developing -- is to step back and look at this from a broader perspective.
I'm trying to develop an attitude that's a balance between healthy caution and a "I need to go on with, and enjoy, my normal life" spirit. So far, I haven't reached that balance. But I need to learn how. I am young, my life is pretty good aside from these bugs, and I refuse to let them completely dominate everything. Some of the posts I've read here seem to be from people who have allowed the bugs to completely take over everything, to the point where life has lost its enjoyment. How do I avoid that? That's what I'm here asking.
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prayforamiracle
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Joined: Apr '08
Posts: 244
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 14:44:41
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Well, I can say. I spent way to much time on this site and i was freaked beyond belief.
But, I will also say, That i educated myself and got rid of what would have taken forever if I would have left it to the LL , the pco he sent, my lame roommates , who refused to do anything, and what i was told to do by these people, who refused to educate them selfs befuse they were too grossed out and say it is propaganda.
After all that. I will say that my Apartment buliding had then 3 floors up.
I was bit sevral times and we never found a bbug. After all that,
I had a pro come out and it was a spider mite , that i found.
But , I learned that the man below me also had an entire room of mounts of recycled furniture and stuff in the basement below me, I had holes in the walls and they never pco the adjacent apts, along with my roomates just fianlly packed up ther un checked stuff and moved because they said "THEY can live with Bb, they will not give you cancer.... It was a crazy time.
Now I am moved out. Lived 3 months of hell, had everything in plastic, went no where, had to get meds. Called the bb dogs in twice. Now i think if i had them i would serouisly shoot myself in the head. Living in New York, they are everywhere aren't they. Parionid. Well , I know the facts and I am dealing with it in the best way, I know how.I think this site is a blessing and it helped me walk throught a horrible time.
Best to be informed that like my landlord "who said we spray once and they are gone and all the rest of the people who just did not care.My roomates offered her furniture to the neighbors who were in need.
Because she did not want to carry it out. She says they only live in beds.
I was crazed. I am here today because i believe i was bit by a misquito.
I get careless and I think, maybe this is all in my head, its not that bad in New York and then i come here and am reminded of how it is an epidemic in New York and it is hard to fight, so i better just get used to being proactive.... -
vdevorainnewark
newbite
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 15
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 15:06:16
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i am going through this paranoia state for the past two days when i first saw them. im drving myself crazy and my boyfriend. i have my daughter staying at my moms house because i fear she can catch anemia (i read). i cant sleep well. i went to sleep at 330am the first night and at 100am last night and i have to inspect my bed continuously before i go to bed. i sleep with the lights on. and i have to turn on the tv and wait impatiently until i fall asleep. my bf wakes up in the middle of the night and turns off the tv. i already started crying b/c i miss my baby she is only 2 and i have only seen her for like 10 minutes this morning b/c i am afraid to sit in my mom's house and spread these things. i speak to her on the phone but im a stay home mom and i spend all day with her so not having her around makes me feel bad. im stress out of my mind. i cleaned the house rom top to bottom and mopped my floor with bleach. im waiting for my bf to get home so we can talk to the super so he can call the owner of the building (16 apartments in total) so that they can inspect all the other apartments to see who they could have came from and so they can get rid of them. on top of all this i hate i mean hate insects. i dont like the majority of them butterflies, ladybugs, ants, roaches, and specially spiders. so this has been something very difficult and i am just two days into this process. i dont have a phobia with insects but i really hate then. i had a spider on my bed once and i slept 2 hrs that night. im really going crazy. im afraid and i fear coming out of my house so i have not gone out much since this happened
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Bugologist
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Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 174
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 15:28:36
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I understand the point of the original post and I think there's a certain level of truth in the idea of breeding paranoia. I think the site is good for people and helps in most instances.
The downside to a forum like this is that people immerse themselves in a world of frustration, disappointment and bad experiences. Most of the people who end up on these forums and do a majority of the posting are people who have had bad experiences. If you were diagnosed with a bed bug infestation, you may look for some quick information, but if the problem goes away quickly, most people move on. On a forum like this you have a concentration of people who suffer mentally with the bug and have suffered due to poor treatment/experiences. That tends to make this bug seem like a total nightmare when in fact, for a lot of people, it's an inconvenience that for lack of a better term sucks but at the same point it taken care of quickly and the person moves on. If you have a good company (which I understand sometimes isn't easy to find) the number of good, quick experiences drastically outweighs the bad experiences.
If you live on this forum, the bug starts to seem like it's everywhere and taking over the world when in fact, outside of your major concentration areas (NY, other urban areas), it's actually still seldomly encountered. I know many people who live in NYC and haven't seen a bed bug. This is a support site but it's also a review forum. How many times do people have a good experience and say "I better go post on my good experience". People look for forums to rant when they're confused, frustrated and need an ear. That's what this forum is. A great service and place to get good information, but it can be a breeding ground for a world that's seemingly overrun by bed bugs.
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lieutenantdan
oldtimer
Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 16:21:11
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I believe that most bed bug infestations do not go away easily. This site was and still is of great help to me. At first way back in Oct. 2006 when we discovered the problem there was little information out and most of it was the same stuff over and over. I learned about chemicals, steaming, throwing away vacuum bags, DE, how surprised entomologist were by the come back of these creatures, and so much more. It was also good to know that others were suffering along with me. Lets face the fact that the problem is spreading and those who do not have to deal personally with bed bugs today may have to tomorrow because the epidemic is growing and resistance to pesticides is growing and the battle is tough and long and expensive for most. Also it is stressful to come home to your sanctuary to find that these creatures exist in your home and they are so stealth. It is not normal to go to bed with the idea that they wait to chew on you at that perfect moment when you finally fall asleep defenseless. My hats off to these creatures. They can hide in a crack undetected, go dormant and exist many months without a blood feed, breed like rabbits.
Absurdity101, I did not want to put you down but when making a statement like they are just bugs you dredge up much bad feelings. I had heard this statement many times from insensitive people some close to me and some not who thought that I went crazy because of my dedication to the war to save my home. A non sufferer just cannot understand, I did not at one time either, you have to live through it to understand it fully. I think that anyone who battles hard deserves an award for they truly care about their homes, families and possessions and the well being of family and friends and strangers and they suffer greatly not just from the stress and fatigue that is inherited by the war but the stress of non supportive people. I was a little hard on you also because I felt that you needed a good lecture to steer you in the right direction and I see now that you do care. You know a way that you can keep your sanity is be pro-active in your war. Maybe think of it as a game of will power and strategy and take no prisoners. You will suffer some, I did but you must fight and win no matter how long it takes. Heere on this site you will find the information and support that you need so stay with it and keep a stiff upper lip my friend. A parasite infestation or a number of other thing that can happen to people in fact does take over your life because at first you are surprised and overwhelmed. If you stay pro-active over time things will ease up and you will not feel so bad. I still check people on the subway for bite marks and at times vacated my seat because I suspected a person near me with bite marks. I see that move as common sense.
Why run the risk of picking up a couple of nymphs or one pregnant female when all I had to do was to move away. Common sense has helped me many times in life so if it makes sense to me I do not care that it does not to another person and if one thinks that I am over reacting than so be it, their opinion will not bother me because I can think for myself not allowing them to influence me. This bed bug stuff is unfortunate but it is real and the battle for most take time and is not easy but like I said before for me it is a no-brainer and I have no problem with continuing on with what I believe needs to be done and if someone does not agree with me that is OK, I know what I have to do.
My best. -
Absurdity101
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 18
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 16:38:51
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Well, I don't know... some of what you're saying still concerns me.
I personally don't want to be on the subway looking around for people with possible bite marks. To be perfectly frank with you, I don't think that degree of obsession and paranoia is going to do anyone a lick of good. I can completely understand and relate to thoughts like that popping into your head, but to dwell on stuff like that -- I'm not sure it's good for your mental health.
Some things are just out of your control, unfortunately. I think that's one of the major mental problems bedbugs create -- a general sense of loss of control. So you can do everything you can do control your own environment, but beyond that I truly believe there has to be some sense of "letting go" at some point.
Again, I am new to this and I'm not trying to be insensitive. I can already see how much this can affect a person's mental health. But I don't want to get to the point where it's coloring ALL of my thoughts and where I can't let it out of my mind for a few hours. If that's the way it's gotten for you, I do think drugs/therapy might be the answer until your thoughts can normalize. PLEASE do not take this as harsh criticism. I am just trying, again, to keep some perspective.
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fightorflight
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Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 694
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 16:51:32
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Some good points here. Yes, this forum is all of the above: a sympathetic friend when no one else understands, an invaluable source of information and a hysteria generator. Take from it what you need and leave the rest behind. Note that Nobugs sometimes recommends to the anxiety-prone that they read the FAQs and skip the forum, which would be an effective way of approaching your bedbug problem. Yes, this discussion can be a support group for those of us still recovering from our bedbug trauma; yet, we also like to humor ourselves that we may be able to pass the favor along and offer some minimal help to the newly afflicted.
What I really wish we had were bigger and better statistics. I really wish the entomology departments at some large universities would start working on this. Yes, I read whatever the last survey was (was it PMP?), but that does not give all the info I want and comes with a certain bias from the point of view of the pest control professionals (for instance, doesn't take into account people who moved to resolve their problems, not an accurate enough statistic for the number of households affected, etc., etc.) Real numbers might help quell some of the paranoia.
Absurdity - Unfortunately, I think the bugs really can turn your life upside down and cause mental trauma. Maybe one approach could be to just accept that and try to deal with it - professional help, meds, doing fun things, attacking the damn bugs - and remembering that eventually you'll resolve the situation one way or another and this will pass. You may never stop being just a little bit paranoid, but it will be totally manageable.
Oh and, maybe you better stay out of the forums for a while. Go out and watch Hancock or Iron Man at the theater. When you get home, get right into your full-body pajamas and booties with face mask, smear yourself with Skin-So-Soft and go directly to your sweaty, vinyl-covered bed.
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Bites44
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Joined: Nov '07
Posts: 99
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 16:59:03
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Yes, this forum can indeed Make my thoughts obsessive about bugs, and the horrors that accompany them. Oh yes. But should I just shut my eyes and hope that everything will be all right? Noooo, just give me the old paranoia, thank you.
Knowledge is an important thing. For example, being a diabetic amongs other things, I need to know all about the disease. Different treatments, what steps others take to deal with that problem. And here is where I use many forum boards for discussion, to learn, and then to help others who are newly shocked with the disease. I learn more on the forums than from the so called medical experts. Hearing people obsesss about things such as having a leg or two cut off keeps me vigilant.
This is true, of course for other things.
For me, knowledge is a MUST.
For me, knowlede about BB's is a must.
For me, this forum is a MUST.
Here is where I found answers to many many questions, where I could not have found anywhere else. About treatment mostly. About other experiences that are a great help to me.Listening to others tell of their emotions and experiences keeps me sane.
Listening here may indeed add to my fear and paranoia, but for me this is a good thing. It keeps me more vigilant, it reinforces the fact that if I do not do all the right things, the bugs will get worse and worse and worse. This for me at my age, and at my state of health could very well be life threatening.
I am thankful to NoBugsOnMe for this forum board, and to all the members who share their ideas here. You have given me the tools to work with--hope, guidance, and a little obssessiveness from time to time.
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moonchill
newbite
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 21
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 17:45:13
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I can say that I've had them before, about 3 years ago, and I was in fact less worried then I have been now. Why? Well I'm not blaming this site or anything like that, but I do believe it's bc I actually knew a little less about them, but knew enough to stay safe. I did what I had to do, mostly on my own the entire time. I did have 1 treatment, then they were gone in about 2 months. I would add that in the entire period I had only found 1 bug, so the infestation was light. I also found out that where I was working as nurse aide in someone's home had them, where I picked them up. So I continually returned there after I a got rid of them, and still managed to remain free. It is definitely possible to live a normal life and have them and then 1 day get rid of them. It is. You just have a new perspective. I actually remained free of them for 3 years or more until now, and I went back to living just like I always did, no plastic bags etc. It's when I started getting a bite or two a month ago that my peaceful reality turned a little worrisome again. I have still not seen a bug or their markings, but I get bites.
Anyway, point being... it's possible to get rid of them definitely, and still maintain some perspective while having a normal life. It's hard cause I was stressing big time for a bit there, but every now and then I get perspective and life is good :)
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BeeBee
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Joined: May '08
Posts: 79
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 18:06:48
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I've been fighting BBs for over eight weeks, saw one in the sofa in the beginning and nothing since. Still getting bit--last night they attacked with more spunk than normally.
But ...
I am camping. Training for a road race. Climbing mountains. Doing things with friends (taking precautions of course and I don't invite anyone over to our house).
My life is basically pretty good. Except for the bugs.
I'm afraid to sleep in the dark and keep a lamp on. This doesn't keep them away but does give me a false sense of power.
It's all about loss of control. I'm trying to see this as a lesson: What can I learn from this? That we never truly have control? That obstacles slow us down but don't have to stop us?
It's hell some nights. But the days are usually pretty damned good. Hiked to the top of a mountain yesterday evening, up so high I was in cloud cover, no one else around but the dog and the silence: Awesome.
Came home and started obsessing and couldn't sleep. The good and the bad I suppose. I'm trying to concentrate on the good. I don't always succeed and I don't mean to minimize the anguish these damned things cause. At the same time, I refuse to let the bugs win. And if I lose my spirit, they've won.
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buggyinsocal
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Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,211
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 21:52:18
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I am mightily resisting the urge to hie off on a tangent about how apparently even BB prove that we need to teach all students about critical reading and evaluating sources. Be thankful I'm managing to resist.
No, really.
The thing is I think that because BB were sort of not thought of as a pest to worry about, in the decades when they weren't much of a problem, few people really dealt with them, either academically or practically. As a result, we're short both experts in the field and research in journals about precise details. There are a number of professionals who hang out in these fora and do awesome work, but there are a lot of people writing in. Given the nature of BB, many of us (myself included) write in totally skeeved out and sleep deprived in a state of complete panic.
Does that mean that I think the forum contributes to paranoia? No.
It seems to me that without really reliable, quantitative, and comprehensive decades of research on BB, which we're kind of lacking, right?--all of us, whether we're new amateurs facing our first battle, or long time professionals who've probably been sitting and watching increasing outbreaks complaining the whole time about lack of attention being paid to the issue--we're kind of lacking the standardized treatments I think all of us wished for.
(Part of me also suspects that we won't ever have totally standardized protocols for treating BB because I'm betting like many things, BB will change and adapt to whatever we throw at them. That's true of bacteria as much as it is true of more complex life forms. Bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics; peregrine falcons adapt to urban life.)
Anyway, I do think that since a lot of us are frustrated with not knowing more, fora like this let us float ideas by a community of people also interested in the issue.
I know that when I'm already obsessing about the bugs, it's a bad idea for me to spend too long in the fora. For example, since my current anxiety level is high, I have to pull away from the messages here several hours before bed time, or else, I just get so anxious I can't sleep.
But I think that isn't the fault of the fora so much as that is the fault of where my brain is. When I read the messages at other times, the messages have helped me sort out a lot of potentially contradictory information.
So, no. I think that the fora are tools without any inherent tendency toward paranoia. Like any other tool, in the wrong hands, they might allow a person to enable his or her own paranoia, but that's not the fault of the fora.
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All Bugged Out
newbite
Joined: May '08
Posts: 3
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 22:45:09
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I dont think these forums cause paranoia because we are all probably already paranoid. This has been a devastating experiece for me and has affected the way I live most def. I always think of bed bugs no matter what it is. I feel like they can be on anything. I went to buy living room furniture and the salesperson said the style I wanted was the last one out on the floor. I said no way someone may have transfered bed bugs into while sitting on it in the store. I actually told the saleman that. I understand there are bugs but I have a problem knowing these bugs live from eating me. I have a problem with that. Especially with the reaction I had to the bites. I could not stop itching. They turned bright red and the welts were huge. I had it when they reached my face and I looked like a battered woman. On top of that I still have scars in everyplace I was bitten. Another reminder. These little creatures have def. changed my way of thinking. I constantly spray under my bed and my childrens bed. I check all mattress seams/headboards. I even keep a flashlight next to my bed just to check from time to time. I even checked and sprayed at a hotel I stayed at. This has truly been life changing.
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moonchill
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Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 21
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 9 2008 23:05:41
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oh one more thing, I actually like this site a lot because I don't feel so alone, I'm glad to have all you out there who understand this madness, bc there are a lot of people who have no clue... and yes this is a serious issue that is very tricky and stressful. I do like and appreciate this forum. Also wanted to add that the first time I had them, I went through a great deal of living a completely abnormal life to the extent that a lot wouldn't understand, or maybe not do, but yes I did manage to free myself of them for awhile. Besides, who else would I be obsessing to about BBs at 12am on a Wed. night... exactly :) and BeeBee your adventures sound great!
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It depends on the person.
I do think websites can be quite helpful both for providing information and support, but it's possible to stress yourself out by reading too much about the topic.
This can happen during an infestation -- sometimes readers will react to someone else's story with despair, thinking their own problem will never go away, or getting into an unhealthy mindset that says "everyone has bed bugs."
fightorflight is right that I do mention from time to time that some folks find the FAQs less anxiety provoking than hearing one live bed bug story after another. (Meanwhile others want to get instructions and tips from others in the same boat, and prefer the forums to the FAQs.)
Sometimes people also continue to be obsessed after an infestation is more or less cleared up -- it can sometimes be hard transitioning to where one doesn't think about bed bugs quite so much.
At least one reader who had a cleared infestation, and who had suffered a form of PTSD due to bed bugs, was told by a therapist that they might not want to visit these websites so much. Last I heard, this individual was so relaxed about bed bugs, they were sleeping on an unencased new mattress in a new home. ;-)
Some of us are here post-infestation, answering questions for others; in most cases, spending time on a bed bug website isn't a sign of a problem. And we're all grateful of course, for those who give back to others in this way.
Other folks eventually decide they need to move on. As much as I grow fond of the website's participants, I am also glad when this happens, because I know that person is doing what they need to do, and thinking about other stuff.
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TomIsBugged
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Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 46
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 3:25:40
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Hi there, I thought I'd chime-in as well. This is actually the 1st time I've been back to this site in over a month, since having moved (read: fled) my old place. Bug-free so far, yee-haw, but still doing a 'somewhat relaxed' laundry containment routine along with a few other paranoid rituals designed to prevent bringing them home. I should also mention that, if there were a continuum of responses to BBs - from those that focus on maintaining a normal/healthy lifestyle to those that verge on obsessive paranoia - I'd have to admit that, during the infestation at least, I was/am quite quite quite beyond the far end of the obsessive end of the spectrum.
That said, though, I think there absolutely is value in recognizing the importance of perspective. New York might be a different deal, but I think (assuming you don't sleep in clothes you wear all week) the probability of bringing home a bug is rather low. The question it all boils down to on an individual basis, though, is what degree of probability each person is comfortable with. I'd say that, if you've got an active infestation and you don't want to spread it, the average person would be comfortable with a level of probability much lower than people without bugs. In my own case, that meant turning into a sideshow freak for 3 months - but had I not done that, I think my state of mental well-being would be worse in the long run.
The good thing about sites like this is that they are a source of very concrete information on how to adjust one's behaviour to match with the degree of probability that makes them comfortable. The thing is, just as there are different degrees of probability there are also corresponding prescriptions to suit those degrees. The effect, then, is that someone who's comfortable with a moderate degree of probability may come across information suited to folks who are interested in restricting the probability of infestation to something like Lotto odds. There's a mis-match, in other words, which can lead to paranoia. In the end, (finally.. phew) I think it comes down to being able to recognize what the intended audience of a given piece of advice is, and deciding whether or not it's right for you & fits your comfort level. Doing that, though, takes perspective - 'meta' as the kids like to say - so I think this thread is actually quite a good idea to help people sort out their own comfort zones. Thanks for starting it :)
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lieutenantdan
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Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 9:37:54
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Paranoia and obsession, some use those terms quiet easily. I do not think that anyone who is not a licensed therapist has the education and credentials to determine who is paranoid and obsessed. Taking precautions is not unusual or strange. People are cautious and express great concern about many things. The U.S. is seeing a large outbreak of measels due to the fact that some parents believe that the MMR vaccine can cause autism in children so they are not vaccinating their children. So are these parents, in the terms that you use so loosely, paranoid? It has been a few years since the attack on the world trade buildings, NYC has been in a high alert status since then and the thought may still cross a persons mind while riding the subways of a possible attack. The city is spending millions on security. Is that being paranoid? A problem with bed bugs are that it is such a off the wall strange thing so automatically anything one does to deal with bed bugs will seem strange. As far as scanning people for bites on the subway. Have you never moved from an individual who is coughing and is apparently sick so as not to get sick yourself? If you do move away than I would say you have good common sense.
The Tylenol company had common sense to design and incorporate a tamper proof bottle
after the Tylenol poisonings back in the 1980's. Wearing a condom because if not you have a risk of catching the AIDS virus. Can a person who takes that caution be considered paranoid? Avoiding sitting on public toilet seats or covering them up first the best you can. Can that action be considered strange? I can go on but my point is that taking the correct approach so as not to inherit a home infestation of any kind to me is just good common sense. You do have control to different extents over many things in life including bed bugs. Therapy, I see a Therapist in general.
If bed bugs are a minimal concern to you, not taking measures immediately due to the fact of how quickly the bed bug reproduces and the fact that the eggs are so hard to kill will in fact make your infestation so large that you will have an impossible time in eradicating the infestation. I must say that if this is your attitude toward bed bugs I am glad I do not live on top or next to you.
I wish you Absuridity101 the best in life and may your infestation get resolved quickly. -
parakeets
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Joined: Mar '07
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Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 11:22:19
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This is an important thing to address, the paranoia about bedbugs, but we can't "blame the victim." I'm beginning to believe that such feelings described her might all be part of post-traumatic stress. People who are attacked by bedbugs are not the same as people who might be medically diagnosed as having a phobia of bedbugs, or people who might be obsessive compulsive about bedbugs. Having strong emotions can just be part of the trauma of having bedbugs. If that weren't the case, landlords, management companies, schools, hotels--such businesses would be freely letting the public know about bedbug infestations. They don't. There is so little disclosure about bedbugs, and part of the reason might be, as they said at the First International Bedbug Symposium, if you tell people there are bedbugs "Pandemonium will ensue."
As for this forum, it has greatly relieved my stress and has been a boon. Thanks nobugs for starting it and for all the educated posters who give so much of their time to spread the knowledge. There is little education in the media and the word about bedbugs has to be spread.
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lieutenantdan
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Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 11:38:33
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Well put fellow old timer.
We can label something anyway we like but once one has an experience of a sort they focus on solving the problem. In bed bugs it is first eradication of the infestation and then vigilance followed by caution and all of that additionally equals education. To me this is a perfectly normal approach to problem solving and the stress that these bugs cause is also normal. For many that stress diminishes in time and in the long run the experience makes you a better person and a stronger person for eradication of these tough to beat pests test your abilities and at the end you end up with a feeling of great accomplishment. What ever traumatic situations we experience in our life most of us end up strengthened and of course we never look at the world exactly the same way again, and that is OK. -
rebugcca
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Joined: May '08
Posts: 23
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 12:59:33
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As a new-ish person, here's my two cents: the discovery of my problem unhappily coincided with a period of serious emotional stress and grief for me. When it rains, it pours. So, adding bedbugs to my woes was, well, kind of like the final straw.
However, this site was seriously a savior at that time. It told me what to do and where to start. It told me not to panic. There was great comfort in knowing that I wasn't alone in having this problem and that it wasn't my fault. It really helped me through some "dark nights of the soul," so to speak--and I'm really greatful for that.Everyone should be a responsible user of this forum and any other online forum: use it in a way that benefits you as an individual and in which you can benefit the community. Personally, I obsess about stuff. That's my personality. So I try not to come here if I don't have some sort of tangible BB thing I'm dealing with. My opinion on the paranoia question is that most people aren't going to find themselves on this forum if they don't already have a problem, and if they have a problem, it can be a great resource and support. I don't think the forum will make them paranoid unless they are already prone to it (speaking from experience!).
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Absurdity101
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 18
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 14:28:21
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I guess I'm harping on that one detail lieutenantdan shared, that although his problem seems to be over, he still scans the subway looking for people with bites. That saddened me. I don't want my mindset to be like that in the future. I know I will never be back to my pre-bedbug innocent of not thinking twice about taking secondhand furniture, staying in hotels, etc., but I don't want this to be something that gives me a dark, paranoid mindet for years to come.
And someone else said their friendships/relationships had been damaged, and they couldn't have people over without worrying. Again... I just hope I don't get to that point. I don't want insects to have that sort of long-term, drastic impact on my life and relationships.
Who knows, depending on what I go through in the next few months, I might be in the same place later. I certainly don't think being cautious/careful is ridiculous, I think it's important. But for me this whole thing, like I said, has got to involve some level of "letting go" after I take all the necessary precautions.
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rebugcca
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Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 15:13:44
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I agree with your sentiment, Absurdity101. I don't think any of us can go back--that sounds melodramatic, but IMO it's true. I think this experience changes people. It has strong effects on relationships and a person's outlook on life. Hopefully at some point treatments for BBs will catch up to this new epidemic, and BBs will be a "thing of the past," like they were in the days of DDT. Until then, I think it's going to be a chronic problem.
I try to stay positive by reminding myself that as horrible as this has been, I've already experienced the worst of it--the worst (for me) being the time before treatment was effective and when it was a new, shocking, scary realization. Crappy as it is, it didn't kill me and I suppose in some ways dealing with it just makes a person a little more resilient and tough and sympathetic. Some days I have a very hard time feeling this way--like the days I also scan strangers for bites or spend hours drying all my clothes or pick up another cleaning-related bill or have to spend an evening at the diner waiting for the poison sprayed around my apartment to diffuse so I can go home and go to bed (at least my PCO would come in the evening so I didn't have to miss work!).
I agree about letting go. I think accepting that this is a bug, not an anthropromorphized enemy, helped for me and also realizing that I am doing all I can. This isn't a situation I can completely control, and I had to accept that fact. I'm still doing everything in my power to get 'em out of my apartment and stop them from going home with someone else, but at the end of the day, there's only so much I can do and there's a lot else I want to focus on in life.
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buggyinsocal
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Posts: 1,211
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 10 2008 15:29:52
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Abusurdity101,
I also think that people have very different thresholds for what they consider to be worry, concern, anxiety, and paranoia. I know this, oddly, because of the different attitudes that I've encountered about flying. I fly a lot. I read a lot of articles and books about what can go wrong. I complain loudly and often that most of the so-called airport security doesn't do anything but make some people feel better because the procedures that can most protect us would happen out of sight of the general flying public (like screening cargo and passenger bag matching on all legs of all domestic flights.) I routinely complain that the rules about liquids and gels don't do anything of note. I hate it when pilots and first officers call turbulence bumpy air. Renaming it won't make me feel any better about it. (Of course, I *like* turbulence, but I know I'm weird.) When I get on a plane, I do always look for the nearest exits and count how many rows there are between me and the exit.)
Now. To many people, that would be interpreted as paranoid. After all, I'm more likely to die in a car crash on the way to work than actually be involved in a plane crash of any sort. Do I do those things because I'm scared or terrified? No. I do them because my personality is that of someone who collects information. That's what I do.
To many people, the fact that I want flyers to be able to take normal sized bottles of water with them into the airports would seem the opposite: reckless. More than one person who has heard me rant about this has said "But if it reduces the chances even a little, we should be willing to do it."
The reason I cite those examples is that everybody has a different threshold for acceptable risk. Everybody deals with those thresholds in different ways. Lt. Dan's line in the sand was a refusal to give up a wood bed frame because that would be letting the bugs win; other people wouldn't ever buy another wood bed frame again. I'm not going to sit here and judge the lines that people draw. I think parakeets's point is a good one: we don't want to blame or pathologize the victim. I would worry about having people over because I wouldn't want to accidentally inflict this on others. But I would define worry in that instance as I would tell people what was going on, tell them what protocols I suggested they follow, and then let them make their own decisions like the adults they are. Sure, someone out there might decide that that's paranoid, but it also seems like it's pathologizing the behavior, and I'd like to avoid pathologizing anyone in all of this, given how people with BB infestations tend to get treated by ill-informed people as if they are unclean or crazy if they can't come up with proof beyond bites.
I understand your desire not to let this overwhelm your life. I'm trying not to let it overwhelm mine. But do keep in mind that the forums only represent a small piece of the lives of the people who post here, so if you're looking to the forums alone and what people say here about the effects, you might not be getting the whole picture either.
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fightorflight
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Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 694
Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jul 11 2008 3:55:16
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(lieutenantDan) Yes, for now I believe I will continue to use the term “paranoid” in an informal and exaggerated way, not to put anyone down but instead to try and highlight in a lighter vein what a difficult situation this is for people. As general linguistic descriptors, I make no judgment and attach no pejorative value to the terms “paranoid” and “obsessive.” I am not talking about diagnosable disorders which affect some people’s lives very negatively for no reason, and even if I were, there would still be no stigma associated with these conditions, just like I wouldn’t blame someone who got cancer.
As I have said before, I think a certain level of “obsessiveness” and “paranoia” can be very useful when fighting bedbugs and subsequently preventing their recurrence. Post-infestation, everyone needs to decide what measures they’re willing to take versus what level of risk they are willing to accept. There is no judgment on this. If you change your subway seat because the person next to you could be carrying bedbugs, then that is a very real measure of precaution (not obsession). Heck, I’m terrified of riding the bus into Denver (I perceive many portals of risk with this bus), which is really impacting my few attempts to unwind and have fun. I think we all have to wrestle with these issues. One person here had a process for dealing with Netflix rentals that I think I would be too lazy to implement (though I certainly read it). So I assume that tiny bit of extra risk. Obsession is only a bad thing when it gets in the way of an individual living the life he/she would like. Since few people want a life with bedbugs, then being very careful about them is not a negative thing, though we might like to joke around and call it obsessive.
Absurdity - There are many people who go through this and take almost no preventive measures after it is all over (though it would be hard to imagine any of us staying at a hotel and not checking the bed). There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't have people over to your home, just like before, - IF your home is clear of bedbugs. In the meantime, please take precautions not to spread them.
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belle72
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Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 104
Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jul 11 2008 9:11:28
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I've been away and just found this post. Because I'm taking some pain meds I'm a little fuzzy and find it hard to focus but I do have a few thoughts...
Yes, I believe I got a bit paranoid when I found this site and realized what I was up against. It made me sad, depressed and the list of things we had to do seemed overwhelming. But it also made me a lot smarter! When a friend insisted that single family homes (detached) cannot have BBs, I laughed at her. When the PCO deemed our infestation "light" and said a one time treatment would do it, I knew enough to insist on two. Even considering that we were never bitten after the first. And still, I am not about to claim victory yet. When Dh and other family said we should go to WM or Target for encasements, I knew they were dead wrong and ordered Aller-Zips.
I am a researcher at heart, it's what I do. I don't make a purchase or medical decision or other major choice without researching first. A lot of info on the web is junk science. But I am confident that the info on this site is not.
So on we go...trying to not let BBs take over our lives, but continuing to be watchful.
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lieutenantdan
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Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jul 11 2008 13:52:08
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All of this nation's top entomologist that I have spoken to take precautions. When they travel they do check their hotel rooms before taking luggage inside and Dr. Pollack at Harvard does mention this on Harvard's bed bug site. When traveling to countries that are in the midst of an infectious disease outbreak we must get vaccinated. You are unable to take certain fruits over the border into the U.S. and even over the border from Nevada into northern California. This strategy is implemented for good reasons and those reasons are not contributed to paranoia.
I do believe that it is possible for bed bugs to spread by rental movies and books from the library. If an article has been sitting in someones bug infested bedroom than yes a chance does exist for you to inherit bugs. All it takes are a couple of nymphs or eggs or ONE pregnant female to start an infestation.
I have invested money in my furniture and it would be a shame to have to toss it so I decided one day the I am waging the War on bed bugs. I own my home and I must protect it form theft, fire and insects. This being the normal thing to do. When you own very little and if your furniture is worth very little and you do not own your home than you may have a different perspective on dealing with an infestation. You could always leave, pull out, jump ship, you have little to loose, less responsibilities.
I believe that bbs have not taken as much from our lives as we think, they have just altered our way we go about life. We have been luckier than prior generations in many ways and in many ways we have had it too easy. Younger people born in the late seventies never experience a war. Only until now have they started to see a recession of this size. Never had a idea of what it was like to have concerns and worries about some diseases like polio because a vaccine had been invented years before they were born.
Now that this country has let it's guard down we start to witness things that we never imagined. From the possibilities of a new pandemic of measles, Lyme disease from ticks, West Nile, the real possibility of bird flu, global warming and yes bed bugs. It would be nice to live in a bubble thinking everything is so wonderful but I am a realist not a romantic. -
Not to go too far off topic, LtDan, but we no longer have to worry about so many diseases that were common pre-1950s. So people in the 19th C had bed bugs AND cholera, those in the 1940s had bed bugs AND polio. Thank goodness we don't have to worry about those other concerns where we live now.
No one is more surprised than me that we have to deal with bed bugs now, and I am not saying bed bugs are not a nasty scourge, but I don't think the progression from past to present and future is all downhill, FWIW.
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scaredwelted
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 7
Posted 1 year ago
Sat Jul 12 2008 2:47:22
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Paranoid? Heck Yeah!!
just discovering the cause of my "leprocy" problem yesterday, along with not sleeping,aneimea, Panick attacks, fear, pain attacks- not to mention the & Burn/Sting!
First of all if you do not eradicate them from your home you run the risk of them taking over and over into other folks holmes? oh my .I feel like Mosquitoes started out as an irritant / went into "no one thinks about them" / then out-burst and then Disease. due to human pectcided, immunity and our dumb as' way of livin'. We crap on the envioriment, it will crap right back.Just more wide spread.
Well, I'm straying, I just need to find a safeplce to sleep in my house. -
canvasbelt
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 2
Posted 1 year ago
Sun Jul 13 2008 11:51:11
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my girlfriend and i have found two bed bugs. we don't think we've been bitten and have not found any signs of them in our house (no fecal matter, eggs, etc.). A mediocre PCO came over yesterday and sprayed our entire apartment. He took apart the bed, but did not look in electrical sockets. we've washed/bagged everything in the bedroom.
my girlfriend thinks i'm over-reacting/paranoid b/c i want to bag the whole apartment. Am I?
I should note that the LL and PCO are treating the whole building today. We think it's coming from the next building over, which is being fully treated today as well.
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Although I feel myself getting more and more wound up as I read the site and the forum, I'm at least thankful for the information. I just discovered bedbugs in my place and I was totally lost before looking around the Internet for places like this one. (Now, I'm not "totally lost", just "lost".)
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It's true that in our western society that we take lots of things for granted, so I've been wondering if we blow this stuff out of proportion compared to some poor person from a 3rd world country. Would a kid who is sleeping in the dirty happily trade it for your bugged mattress?
Personally I don't think so. It would be like sleeping on an ants nest. People generally don't do that, they pick a clean patch of dirt.
In the same way, in western society, we're battling a problem that others don't have, and the side effects - bites, itchiness, lack of sleep, etc, are real, and not shared by those who don't have bed bugs. So it's not crazy to say - hey, we have a problem and it's okay to devote attention to it.
I like the analogy someone else used here about hey why not stop brushing your teeth and let dogs poop all over your house because it's a waste of time doing them over and over. Same deal.
Yeah bed bugs aren't as bad as being trapped in a country raging with war and with bombs dropping around you. But (most of us) don't live in that world, we live in this one, and it is a serious problem.
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Apfiu,
Again, the FAQs are a good place to start. You can bring unanswered questions here. (I'd start a new thread, though!) -
Absurdity101
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 18
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 16 2008 1:32:47
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Well, let me relate this to another experience I had on an Internet forum.
About 2 years ago, I started seeing some signs of aging (crow's feet developing, etc). This freaked me out, thoroughly. I think it's hard for everyone to watch themselves get older. But I channeled my anxiety into trying to find skincare solutions to my new problems. I somehow found this skincare forum online and started spending a lot of time there. Too much time.
The ladies at the site were absolutely fanatical and over-the-top about skincare products and finding "solutions" to aging. Many of them posted over 25 times per day. I got sucked into it for a while, visiting every time I signed online, spending a ton of money on products that never really ended up helping. Because let's face it, you simply can't retain the dewy face of a 21-year-old forever. While visiting the site frequently gave me the illusion I was "in control" of my aging process, my participation there just ended up making me feel more anxious, more obsessive about finding the right products, and ultimately less happy with my life.
Finally I was able to step back from the site and let things go. I was all the better for it and since then I've developed a much more reasonable attitude toward aging. I will acknowledge that I did learn a lot from the forum about the science of skincare, so it wasn't all a total loss.
I guess that's why I'm trying to approach this forum with caution. Who are the reasonable voices here? Have some people here gone over the top? What is the rational attitude to take toward these bugs, and what degree of paranoia and obsession do I apply to this problem?
I've already unsettled several people in my life with my increasingly irrational behavior toward these bugs. I think I've let the bugs completely unhinge me. I don't want this forum to feed into that, but I do want to learn more about getting rid of these things successfully.
I hope that makes sense.
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lieutenantdan
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Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 16 2008 9:50:19
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Having a bed bug infestation cannot compare with the fact that we are all losing hair and developing wrinkles. I believe that if one thinks that some creams will prevent you from aging and you allow yourself to be duped into believing this than that is a different issue. The need to exterminate bed bugs from you home is a necessity and is something that you are able to do in time. This site came into existence for me when very little information about bed bugs was available. This site provided me with information and support that no other site has ever matched. I can understand your caution because of your experience with the skincare situation but you cannot compare apples to oranges.
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ouchouchouch
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Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 6
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 17 2008 17:29:16
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to the OP, i completely agree with you. i am the same way, it's a good way to cope. keep your head up and look at the "bigger picture"
what i do when i feel upset about something and start getting obsessive and feeling hopeless, i stop subjecting myself to these things that breed my obsessiveness and paranoia. will bugs still exist if i stop looking them up online? yeah, but at least its not constantly on my mind, and making me feel crazy.
take a deep breath, step back, bigger picture.
its true that these things have pestered people for ages. and as far as i know, the human race is still thriving. at least we have a way to kill these bugs, way long ago hey had nothing. and i will be alive 5 years from now, maybe a bit scarred, but no longer bitten, it wont be a worry in the future.
you're right. step back, and think positive. dont obsess. it sucks (no pun intended) but we will survive it all, and one day it won't be a worry anymore. people have done it before us, and will continue to do it after. we'll be fine.
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"I guess that's why I'm trying to approach this forum with caution. Who are the reasonable voices here? Have some people here gone over the top? What is the rational attitude to take toward these bugs, and what degree of paranoia and obsession do I apply to this problem?"
I assume these are rhetorical questions, since it would be unpleasant if we all started publicly naming the people we think are rational and reasonable, and the ones we think have "gone over the top."
I think it won't take you long to formulate your own opinions on these questions.
It shouldn't take you long to identify people whose comments seem helpful and balanced.
At the very least, find a few of those voices, and if you are concerned about any advice you're seeing, PM them to ask their opinions.
And as for the skin forum -- the big difference there is that here, people participate because they have an actual discrete, identified problem-- an active bed bug infestation. It can be solved (unlike ageing). It's not a Holy Grail we will seek indefinitely.
Others are here to offer advice either from a professional or layperson's perspective (and thank goodness they're here!) If anyone sounds a bit off to you, then try and ignore them.
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SHORT ANSWER
Do forums like these breed paranoia? YES
Do forums like these just breed paranoia?
No because they also serve as an education tool and provide emotional support to many. Unfortunately it is hard to police bad advice, self promoters, people with ego issues and as I suspect a few mischief makers from time to time. -
lieutenantdan
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Joined: Apr '07
Posts: 1,162
Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jul 18 2008 9:48:45
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If one tends to be an individual that happens to point toward being paranoid than a person of that nature will see life in that way.
In the last 22 months I have heard bad advice presented by professionals also. This is OK because of the nature of the rising bed bug problem and the lack of recent data on bed bugs. Ego issues, we all have some sort of an ego so to me this is natural and I do not pay it too much mind, in fact it can be entertaining. Mischief makers, we all can be mischievous from time to time. This is life and life consists of individuals and people vary personalities and in what they find humorous etc...and I appreciate that fact.
Personally I do not seek advice from this site I seek education. In seeking education I take statements and comments and filter them and then further researching that data and then I decide how to apply that knowledge to my war and is has worked for me. Some people are looking for an easy answer to battling bed bugs, well I hate to tell you this although you may have figured it out on your own, there is no silver bullet. Battling a bed bug infestation is hard, the fact is that it takes money, time and an amazing amount of energy and persistence. In many cases all that comes with the added problem of non support from some family and friends and also with the support of some such as the warriors from this site for no one understands how much stress is involved in the war than a true warrior. I believe that if you truly want to get rid of these creatures from your home than you can, it is in your power. After that you must remember to never let your guard down because you do run a risk, depending on your situation, of another infestation happening to you. My area is to be said full of bed bugs, a ground zero and I do believe that this is true, so I must take caution in my actions and how I do certain things.
The fact is that bed bugs are quickly taking over the cities and some of the country areas and as of now we have little help from pesticides for control so until a more comprehensible pesticide is developed the fact remains that bed bugs are back and they are here to stay. -
I Visit all bedbug related forums and I learn only about things that wont work. But I have never come across anything useful. I wish readers to be creative their own in treating bedbugs .my bedbug experiences at www.sentl.com
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fightorflight
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Joined: Jan '08
Posts: 694
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 24 2008 0:26:06
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cocob:
> I Visit all bedbug related forums and I learn only about things that wont work. But I have never come across anything useful.Okay, so you're saying that in all the collective, voluminous, informed, well-researched and backed by personal experience information offered up by concerned BB veterans on this forum, you have found no strategies or suggestions that will be useful in combatting your bedbug problem?
Well, if you want to reinvent the wheel, fine. We're not gonna stop you.
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bugalew
junior member
Joined: Aug '07
Posts: 53
Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jul 24 2008 11:08:17
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In my experience, all bedbug research, forums and discussion breed paranoia. To some extent the paranoia is useful. We need to educate and be vigilant.
Although there should be, there is no Bedbug Bureau. Few laws. The climate is very "wild west". No one to say a particular product, service or PCO is a scam and taking advantage of victims in sleep deprived desperation. No one to deem a victim who makes treatment and transmittal decisions based on arrogance and ignorance as irresponsible and potentially criminal. No one to tell me during my infestation, in the wee hours,that websites suggesting things like sleeping with a shower cap filled with carpet refresher is ...insane. Of course if twenty people, for example and on various sites said it worked I'd have filled my bed with the stuff. As a group, we are self "policing", governing, educating etc. It's all we got until something changes and it's not gonna change on it's own. When a senator, mayor, council person, judge is infested and speaks out, it'll all be different.
Every infestation is different as much as they are the same- size and condition of location, how many and age and gender of those affected, financial resources etc. At the moment, this is the only vehicle we have to exchange and pass on information.
The treatment and eradication for this is incredibly complicated and multifaceted. This site in particular has the most "sobering" and breeds the most sanity -again -in my experience. If anyone comes up with a better way to disseminate information based on experience of those who've lived thru it and help educate the public, let me know. Just like the shower cap- sign me up.
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