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DE hazards.
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spideyjg
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Posted 8 months ago
Wed Mar 11 2009 0:54:51
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Over and over the subject of DE and it being an inhalation hazard comes up so I wanted to make a single thread reference since the FAQ doesn't have this info.
DE or any pesticide dust is for use only in areas where the living things present are ones you want to die. Cracks, crevices, wall voids etc, applied then left undisturbed.
Apply it, wearing your PPE, Personal Protective Equipment, ventilate the place when done before removing your safety gear.
See this
http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
or this....
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0552.html
DE is an inhalation hazard per the CDC. It can cause silicosis. It is quite safe when used properly but isn't as safe as some hucksters make it out to be.
Your choice to either listen to the CDC and NIOSH who are charged with health and worker safety or some schmoe selling DE as a miracle BB treatment.
Don't get me wrong I used DE and swear by it as an effective BB weapon but have done enough homework to realize it isn't as benign as some portray it.
You need to protect yourself from inhaling it and NIOSH recommends a filter depending on the concentration but go for a P100 filtered respirator. KillerQueen suggested this,
I would use a Comfo Classic Respirator no matter what the label tells you.
I use GME-P100 cartridge part number or reference number 815182."Whatever respirator you get ensure it is P, N, or R100 rated for finest particulate filtration if you are using ANY pesticide dusts.
Your one set of lungs, your choice, but decide on the facts.
Jim
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bedbugdude
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Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 121
Posted 8 months ago
Wed Mar 11 2009 1:15:01
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nice post jim!
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Hi Jim,
Your safety suggestions were much appreciated.
Your entire message and links to the CDC info and KillerQueen's suggestions were added to the DE FAQ. I placed it not quite at the beginning but above all the more enthusiastic and less cautious recommendations about DE, so it is first in people's minds.
http://bedbugger.com/2007/03/30/faqde/
I made one small edit: instead of "It is quite safe" I changed this to "It can be quite safe...". Perhaps I am, being overly cautious in this wording.
I also edited the contributions from Geoff Day and John Meshna, where they suggest dust masks, to clarify that Bedbugger recommends proper respirator masks (and a note to look up and re-read the info you provided). I also edited out a few of Geoff's and John's statements that I think could lead people to be less cautious. If anything remains that concerns you, please do let me know!
A reminder to everyone, feel free to suggest changes to any of the FAQs. The best way to do so is often to add comments to the FAQs themselves, but you can also post them here, and draw my attention to them with a PM.
Those of us who contributed to the FAQs did the best we could, but many of them were written years ago, and the collective bedbugger knowledge base has moved on. It's important to revise the FAQs, and the best way to do this is when people suggest changes.
Many Thanks again to Jim!
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spideyjg
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Posts: 1,524
Posted 7 months ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 15:48:52
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Thanks Nobugs that FAQ needed to have the safety info emphasized.
I'd add this link for the duster since there is mention but no link to an ideal duster. It is a JT Eaton model 530 or Crusader
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/bellow-hand-duster-p-106.html
Or about halfway down here but many other BB products before it.
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Okay, it's done. I am sorry I did not get your changes up there sooner (you had posted the CDC links on the comments of the FAQ) but in future I will watch the FAQ comments so you can leave suggestions there and they will be added more quickly.
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Grindstone99
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Joined: May '09
Posts: 56
Posted 6 months ago
Sat May 9 2009 22:33:46
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Thanks for the post. All I keep reading about is DE and I would hate to think people are endangering their health over this. It's not worth it!
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lieutenantdan
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Posts: 1,146
Posted 5 months ago
Wed May 20 2009 14:49:05
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I must add my opinion on this. I believe that when one uses DE, that is Fresh Water Food Grade DE, one should be careful and use a mask, gloves and long pants and long sleeve shirt.
I do not believe that the use of DE in six or seven applications in one's lifetime will do them harm,
of course if you already suffer from a disease like asthma than that may be a different story.
Daily we breathe in more pollutants than one could ever imagine including break dust from cars
so I would not be afraid to use DE but yes do take precautions and use common sense.
DE can dry out your skin for a couple of days but do not be so afraid of it that you would not consider using it because I believe that it is a good weapon to use in the war with bed bugs. -
spideyjg
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Posted 5 months ago
Wed May 20 2009 15:29:15
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lieutenantdan - 35 minutes ago »
I would not be afraid to use DE but yes do take precautions and use common sense.
DE can dry out your skin for a couple of days but do not be so afraid of it that you would not consider using it because I believe that it is a good weapon to use in the war with bed bugs.Exactly Dan. used properly and with precautions there is no fear at all to using this weapon.
Seen several things online by hucksters suggesting applying it to the mattress or other places that can raise the risk off the chart.
All weapons must be used properly. None are 100% benign to human health.
Jim
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bugoff_1
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Joined: May '09
Posts: 35
Posted 5 months ago
Wed May 20 2009 23:40:51
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Hi Folks,
I'm new to the forums here and have been reading about all the DE health hazards. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that this dust is only to be used in cracks and crevices in small amounts. Also that a specific tool, the "bellows duster" is used to apply it into these small areas and a respirator mask is needed. As well as being a health hazard, it can also be carcinogenic?If this is correct, PLEASE ADVISE ASAP. The reason(s) I am feeling quite panicked right now is that my LL has been liberally sprinkling DE over my entire apt for the past 5 months! This is on top of his 2 previous treatments of chemical spray and bombs. My bedroom has been in quarantine with the door shut for 3 months because the DE dust is so thick in there I can't even go in for a couple minutes without a face mask. Thus, I've yet to even vacuum in there. Now I'm reading that it can harm vacuum cleaners too?
If anyone knows more about this or can give me some reliable advice, I sincerely would appreciate it. This could explain why I've been having major respiratory problems lately :/ Tomorrow I plan to contact the Health Dept as well.
~bugoff_1
. . . I can't believe he even told me to rub it into my cat's fur!
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Even though we're told some kinds of DE (namely food grade/freshwater DE) may be used safely, it can also be misapplied.
You should not be breathing in any kind of DE.
(Breathing in Pool Grade DE would be even more dangerous, I understand.)
Yes, it can hurt vacuums too, though I would be more worried about you.
Depending where you live, it may also be illegal for the landlord to treat your home. You might contact a tenants' organization locally for advice on this, before you make that particular claim.
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spideyjg
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Posted 5 months ago
Thu May 21 2009 0:58:34
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Find out what else the LL has been using and get the MSDS sheets on them and contact your health provider. Certainly an application of DE like you describe is not proper.
Is that the cause of your respiratory problems? That is going to be what your doctor decides but read the first page in this one....
http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
Basically says it is a inhalation hazard and to see a doctor if you develop respiratory problems and have been exposed to it.
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bugoff_1
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Joined: May '09
Posts: 35
Posted 5 months ago
Thu May 21 2009 14:53:51
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Thank you so much spideyig and Nobugsonme for your speedy replies! Reading these 2 links that you mentioned are what made me take this seriously.
- http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
- http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0552.htmlI had NO idea DE was so caustic and hazardous! So many do-it-urself sites state DE as being an 'organic' method of treatment over chemicals but fail to mention the health risks, esp with misuse. I have made an appt with my doc for lung x-rays and am taking the information from these links to show her.
I've been searching on the internet for information on whether it is even legal in Wisconsin for my LL to have done these treatments himself but still have not found an absolute answer so still unsure of this. Of course, HUD's building inspector didn't know either (no surprise there)
Today the building inspector from HUD came (for the 4th time) and even after I showed her the information and explained the health risks I have been exposed to, she remains firm in that if I do not present her with a live bug, there is nothing they can do. Apparently the one that I found on my neck a week ago is not good enuff because it is dead. I demanded that she obtain from my LL the MSDS of ALL the chemicals and 'organic' products he has been using for the last 5 months.
I am so fed up with building inspectors, landlords, and all the other people and places I have contacted trying to pass the buck to whomever else they can, leaving the victims with no rights to protect even their health. I've read the 2009 Act info and all I can say is there have GOT to be some laws passed to catch up with this epidemic and fast!
Thank you SO much for your advise and for just being here :)
~bugoff_1
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spideyjg
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Posts: 1,524
Posted 5 months ago
Sat Jun 6 2009 14:39:10
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DE is harmful to moving parts in a vacuum cleaners as several folks have had theirs fail. Most vacuums do not have enough filtration and will blow the fine particles into the air. Only a HEPA equipped vacuum has the filtration to reduce the "blow by".
If you don't have a HEPA vac or have some fancy $$$$$$$ high tech vacuum you may want to invest into a inexpensive HEPA vac.
I used a Eureka Smartvac I got a Walmart for about $150ish and it survived sucking up all the spills and excess DE in my war. It is a pretty kick ass vacuum in addition.
If cleaning up DE wear your respirator and use the HEPA vac.
Jim
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bugged58
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Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 5
Posted 1 month ago
Thu Sep 10 2009 9:04:11
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Jim, what do you think of the bellows duster sold at the perma-guard website [quote]pest pistols dusterspideyjg - 5 months ago »
Thanks Nobugs that FAQ needed to have the safety info emphasized.
I'd add this link for the duster since there is mention but no link to an ideal duster. It is a JT Eaton model 530 or Crusader
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/bellow-hand-duster-p-106.html
Or about halfway down here but many other BB products before it.
http://www.jteaton.com/prof_insect.htm -
steph_in_brooklyn
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Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 6
Posted 1 month ago
Tue Oct 6 2009 14:01:12
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I'm late to respond to this, but wanted to add my experience with DE as spideyjg asked me to chip in after my last post here several months ago. I did have a pretty bad reaction to living with DE - in combo with pesticides - for a month. I moved out after one month of living with it. I started to notice side effects after about 2.5 weeks but they didn't get bad until about 3 weeks after I moved out. At first I was diagnosed with just a reaction to neurotoxins (from a doctor who had no background on my living situation) but as my health continued to deteriorate I've been diagnosed with thyroid dysfunction as a result of neurotoxins aka exposure to chemicals. It's something that took a while to diagnose and will take a long time to treat /could possibly require indefinite treatment.
I should point out that the company I used heaped on TONS of DE in the crevices, which quickly formed a light dusting over the rest of our floors. Also, they sprayed the mattresses with pesticides which I later learned is a big no no. And I have a lower immune system so a 6' tall guy with an immune system of steel might not notice the effects. But I would NEVER expose children or pets.
What bothers me most is that when I started to react I repeatedly called the PCO and told them I "felt like I was dying" in the apartment - I felt like I couldn't breath, had to pee like every five minutes literally, and was having constant panic attacks which I'd never had before in my life - and was having a lot of trouble sleeping around it and was repeatedly told for the treatment to work I had to continue sleeping on my bed. I ended up moving to the kitchen floor underneath an open window but the damage was already done clearly.
Personally, I'd recommend going with steam treatment or something instead of any chemical / pesticide treatment. It's really not worth the risk.
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spideyjg
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Posts: 1,524
Posted 1 month ago
Wed Oct 7 2009 15:26:34
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Summation of some other post on what is too much DE...
Read the NIOSH document above. PEL is Permissible Exposure Limits
IDLH is Immediate Danger to Life and Health,
REL is Recommended Exposure Limit.
TWA is Time Weighted Average,
mppcf is million particles per cubic foot.PEL is 20 mppcf TWA; 80 mg/m3/%SiO2 TWA
REL is 6 mg/m3 TWA
IDHL is 3,000 mg/m3
Now you can hire a fizzycyst or OSHA scientist to figure that stuff out in relation to quantity of DE applied or just wear a respirator.
DE for insect control, per a google search and subject to being off but I'm running with it, is about .5-5 microns in size per particle.
An inch long single file line of DE, assuming 1 micron, contains 25,400 particles.
A square inch will be 64,560,000 particles if only 1 particle deep.
So if .5 microns you have in a square inch 129,120,000 particles
Or if 5 microns you have 12,912,000 particles.
Best guess is 1/6th to 1/3 a square inch of 1 particle deep DE will take a cubic foot of air over the limit.
Bottom line, wear a P-100 respirator when applying and remove spills/excess with a HEPA vac!
1 CC of DE contains enough particles, 1 trillion assuming 1 micron, to contaminate 400,000 cubic feet of air or 400 10X10 rooms.
1/8 th teaspoon, about .6 of a CC, can contaminate 31,250 cubic feet of air or 31.2 10X10 rooms.
Now this is not 100% accurate since there is probably more calculations but these are so staggering as to what could contaminate a single 10X10 room.
1 tsp, 5 trillion particles, can do 250 10X10 rooms. So 1/250th of a teaspoon aerosolized takes a 10X10 room over the 20mppcf limit.
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