Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed Bug Treatment
DE hazards.
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spideyjg
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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Mar 11 2009 0:54:51
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Over and over the subject of DE and it being an inhalation hazard comes up so I wanted to make a single thread reference since the FAQ doesn't have this info.
DE or any pesticide dust is for use only in areas where the living things present are ones you want to die. Cracks, crevices, wall voids etc, applied then left undisturbed.
Apply it, wearing your PPE, Personal Protective Equipment, ventilate the place when done before removing your safety gear.
See this
http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
or this....
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0552.html
DE is an inhalation hazard per the CDC. It can cause silicosis. It is quite safe when used properly but isn't as safe as some hucksters make it out to be.
Your choice to either listen to the CDC and NIOSH who are charged with health and worker safety or some schmoe selling DE as a miracle BB treatment.
Don't get me wrong I used DE and swear by it as an effective BB weapon but have done enough homework to realize it isn't as benign as some portray it.
You need to protect yourself from inhaling it and NIOSH recommends a filter depending on the concentration but go for a P100 filtered respirator. KillerQueen suggested this,
I would use a Comfo Classic Respirator no matter what the label tells you.
I use GME-P100 cartridge part number or reference number 815182."Whatever respirator you get ensure it is P, N, or R100 rated for finest particulate filtration if you are using ANY pesticide dusts.
Your one set of lungs, your choice, but decide on the facts.
Jim
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bedbugdude
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Posted 3 years ago
Wed Mar 11 2009 1:15:01
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nice post jim!
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your host
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Posted 3 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 14:16:30
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Hi Jim,
Your safety suggestions were much appreciated.
Your entire message and links to the CDC info and KillerQueen's suggestions were added to the DE FAQ. I placed it not quite at the beginning but above all the more enthusiastic and less cautious recommendations about DE, so it is first in people's minds.
http://bedbugger.com/2007/03/30/faqde/
I made one small edit: instead of "It is quite safe" I changed this to "It can be quite safe...". Perhaps I am, being overly cautious in this wording.
I also edited the contributions from Geoff Day and John Meshna, where they suggest dust masks, to clarify that Bedbugger recommends proper respirator masks (and a note to look up and re-read the info you provided). I also edited out a few of Geoff's and John's statements that I think could lead people to be less cautious. If anything remains that concerns you, please do let me know!
A reminder to everyone, feel free to suggest changes to any of the FAQs. The best way to do so is often to add comments to the FAQs themselves, but you can also post them here, and draw my attention to them with a PM.
Those of us who contributed to the FAQs did the best we could, but many of them were written years ago, and the collective bedbugger knowledge base has moved on. It's important to revise the FAQs, and the best way to do this is when people suggest changes.
Many Thanks again to Jim!
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spideyjg
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Posted 3 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 15:48:52
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Thanks Nobugs that FAQ needed to have the safety info emphasized.
I'd add this link for the duster since there is mention but no link to an ideal duster. It is a JT Eaton model 530 or Crusader
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/bellow-hand-duster-p-106.html
Or about halfway down here but many other BB products before it.
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your host
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Posted 3 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 18:37:14
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Okay, it's done. I am sorry I did not get your changes up there sooner (you had posted the CDC links on the comments of the FAQ) but in future I will watch the FAQ comments so you can leave suggestions there and they will be added more quickly.
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Grindstone99
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Posted 3 years ago
Sat May 9 2009 22:33:46
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Thanks for the post. All I keep reading about is DE and I would hate to think people are endangering their health over this. It's not worth it!
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lieutenantdan
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 20 2009 14:49:05
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I must add my opinion on this. I believe that when one uses DE, that is Fresh Water Food Grade DE, one should be careful and use a mask, gloves and long pants and long sleeve shirt.
I do not believe that the use of DE in six or seven applications in one's lifetime will do them harm,
of course if you already suffer from a disease like asthma than that may be a different story.
Daily we breathe in more pollutants than one could ever imagine including break dust from cars
so I would not be afraid to use DE but yes do take precautions and use common sense.
DE can dry out your skin for a couple of days but do not be so afraid of it that you would not consider using it because I believe that it is a good weapon to use in the war with bed bugs. -
spideyjg
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 20 2009 15:29:15
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lieutenantdan - 35 minutes ago »
I would not be afraid to use DE but yes do take precautions and use common sense.
DE can dry out your skin for a couple of days but do not be so afraid of it that you would not consider using it because I believe that it is a good weapon to use in the war with bed bugs.Exactly Dan. used properly and with precautions there is no fear at all to using this weapon.
Seen several things online by hucksters suggesting applying it to the mattress or other places that can raise the risk off the chart.
All weapons must be used properly. None are 100% benign to human health.
Jim
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bugoff_1
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 20 2009 23:40:51
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Hi Folks,
I'm new to the forums here and have been reading about all the DE health hazards. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that this dust is only to be used in cracks and crevices in small amounts. Also that a specific tool, the "bellows duster" is used to apply it into these small areas and a respirator mask is needed. As well as being a health hazard, it can also be carcinogenic?If this is correct, PLEASE ADVISE ASAP. The reason(s) I am feeling quite panicked right now is that my LL has been liberally sprinkling DE over my entire apt for the past 5 months! This is on top of his 2 previous treatments of chemical spray and bombs. My bedroom has been in quarantine with the door shut for 3 months because the DE dust is so thick in there I can't even go in for a couple minutes without a face mask. Thus, I've yet to even vacuum in there. Now I'm reading that it can harm vacuum cleaners too?
If anyone knows more about this or can give me some reliable advice, I sincerely would appreciate it. This could explain why I've been having major respiratory problems lately :/ Tomorrow I plan to contact the Health Dept as well.
~bugoff_1
. . . I can't believe he even told me to rub it into my cat's fur!
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your host
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 21 2009 0:52:21
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Even though we're told some kinds of DE (namely food grade/freshwater DE) may be used safely, it can also be misapplied.
You should not be breathing in any kind of DE.
(Breathing in Pool Grade DE would be even more dangerous, I understand.)
Yes, it can hurt vacuums too, though I would be more worried about you.
Depending where you live, it may also be illegal for the landlord to treat your home. You might contact a tenants' organization locally for advice on this, before you make that particular claim.
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spideyjg
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 21 2009 0:58:34
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Find out what else the LL has been using and get the MSDS sheets on them and contact your health provider. Certainly an application of DE like you describe is not proper.
Is that the cause of your respiratory problems? That is going to be what your doctor decides but read the first page in this one....
http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
Basically says it is a inhalation hazard and to see a doctor if you develop respiratory problems and have been exposed to it.
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bugoff_1
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 21 2009 14:53:51
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Thank you so much spideyig and Nobugsonme for your speedy replies! Reading these 2 links that you mentioned are what made me take this seriously.
- http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/pdfs/0552.pdf
- http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0552.htmlI had NO idea DE was so caustic and hazardous! So many do-it-urself sites state DE as being an 'organic' method of treatment over chemicals but fail to mention the health risks, esp with misuse. I have made an appt with my doc for lung x-rays and am taking the information from these links to show her.
I've been searching on the internet for information on whether it is even legal in Wisconsin for my LL to have done these treatments himself but still have not found an absolute answer so still unsure of this. Of course, HUD's building inspector didn't know either (no surprise there)
Today the building inspector from HUD came (for the 4th time) and even after I showed her the information and explained the health risks I have been exposed to, she remains firm in that if I do not present her with a live bug, there is nothing they can do. Apparently the one that I found on my neck a week ago is not good enuff because it is dead. I demanded that she obtain from my LL the MSDS of ALL the chemicals and 'organic' products he has been using for the last 5 months.
I am so fed up with building inspectors, landlords, and all the other people and places I have contacted trying to pass the buck to whomever else they can, leaving the victims with no rights to protect even their health. I've read the 2009 Act info and all I can say is there have GOT to be some laws passed to catch up with this epidemic and fast!
Thank you SO much for your advise and for just being here
~bugoff_1
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spideyjg
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Jun 6 2009 14:39:10
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DE is harmful to moving parts in a vacuum cleaners as several folks have had theirs fail. Most vacuums do not have enough filtration and will blow the fine particles into the air. Only a HEPA equipped vacuum has the filtration to reduce the "blow by".
If you don't have a HEPA vac or have some fancy $$$$$$$ high tech vacuum you may want to invest into a inexpensive HEPA vac.
I used a Eureka Smartvac I got a Walmart for about $150ish and it survived sucking up all the spills and excess DE in my war. It is a pretty kick ass vacuum in addition.
If cleaning up DE wear your respirator and use the HEPA vac.
Jim
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bugged58
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu Sep 10 2009 9:04:11
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Jim, what do you think of the bellows duster sold at the perma-guard website [quote]pest pistols dusterspideyjg - 5 months ago »
Thanks Nobugs that FAQ needed to have the safety info emphasized.
I'd add this link for the duster since there is mention but no link to an ideal duster. It is a JT Eaton model 530 or Crusader
http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/bellow-hand-duster-p-106.html
Or about halfway down here but many other BB products before it.
http://www.jteaton.com/prof_insect.htm -
steph_in_brooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue Oct 6 2009 14:01:12
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I'm late to respond to this, but wanted to add my experience with DE as spideyjg asked me to chip in after my last post here several months ago. I did have a pretty bad reaction to living with DE - in combo with pesticides - for a month. I moved out after one month of living with it. I started to notice side effects after about 2.5 weeks but they didn't get bad until about 3 weeks after I moved out. At first I was diagnosed with just a reaction to neurotoxins (from a doctor who had no background on my living situation) but as my health continued to deteriorate I've been diagnosed with thyroid dysfunction as a result of neurotoxins aka exposure to chemicals. It's something that took a while to diagnose and will take a long time to treat /could possibly require indefinite treatment.
I should point out that the company I used heaped on TONS of DE in the crevices, which quickly formed a light dusting over the rest of our floors. Also, they sprayed the mattresses with pesticides which I later learned is a big no no. And I have a lower immune system so a 6' tall guy with an immune system of steel might not notice the effects. But I would NEVER expose children or pets.
What bothers me most is that when I started to react I repeatedly called the PCO and told them I "felt like I was dying" in the apartment - I felt like I couldn't breath, had to pee like every five minutes literally, and was having constant panic attacks which I'd never had before in my life - and was having a lot of trouble sleeping around it and was repeatedly told for the treatment to work I had to continue sleeping on my bed. I ended up moving to the kitchen floor underneath an open window but the damage was already done clearly.
Personally, I'd recommend going with steam treatment or something instead of any chemical / pesticide treatment. It's really not worth the risk.
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spideyjg
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed Oct 7 2009 15:26:34
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Summation of some other post on what is too much DE...
Read the NIOSH document above. PEL is Permissible Exposure Limits
IDLH is Immediate Danger to Life and Health,
REL is Recommended Exposure Limit.
TWA is Time Weighted Average,
mppcf is million particles per cubic foot.PEL is 20 mppcf TWA; 80 mg/m3/%SiO2 TWA
REL is 6 mg/m3 TWA
IDHL is 3,000 mg/m3
Now you can hire a fizzycyst or OSHA scientist to figure that stuff out in relation to quantity of DE applied or just wear a respirator.
DE for insect control, per a google search and subject to being off but I'm running with it, is about .5-5 microns in size per particle.
An inch long single file line of DE, assuming 1 micron, contains 25,400 particles.
A square inch will be 64,560,000 particles if only 1 particle deep.
So if .5 microns you have in a square inch 129,120,000 particles
Or if 5 microns you have 12,912,000 particles.
Best guess is 1/6th to 1/3 a square inch of 1 particle deep DE will take a cubic foot of air over the limit.
Bottom line, wear a P-100 respirator when applying and remove spills/excess with a HEPA vac!
1 CC of DE contains enough particles, 1 trillion assuming 1 micron, to contaminate 400,000 cubic feet of air or 400 10X10 rooms.
1/8 th teaspoon, about .6 of a CC, can contaminate 31,250 cubic feet of air or 31.2 10X10 rooms.
Now this is not 100% accurate since there is probably more calculations but these are so staggering as to what could contaminate a single 10X10 room.
1 tsp, 5 trillion particles, can do 250 10X10 rooms. So 1/250th of a teaspoon aerosolized takes a 10X10 room over the 20mppcf limit.
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BBGen0cide
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 3:44:20
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After vacuuming, i put a fan in the window and blew it out. When i go into the room, even 2 days after, i cough unless i have a mask on.
Should i buy some hepa air purifiers to help get rid of the rest?
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your host
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 3:48:32
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BBGen0cide - 2 minutes ago »
After vacuuming, i put a fan in the window and blew it out. When i go into the room, even 2 days after, i cough unless i have a mask on.
Should i buy some hepa air purifiers to help get rid of the rest?BBGenocide,
You need to give us more information. You are responding to an 11-month old thread and do not have any previous posts in it explaining your situation.
What exactly did you apply? (There's more than one kind of DE.)
How much? Where?Did you explain your story in another thread? If so, your response might make more sense in that context.
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holly2233
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 5:00:52
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good topic. i wear contact's and accidentally "poofed" some into my right eyeball/contact. Thankfully I had no side effects. got lucky i guess. stay safe ppl!
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BBGen0cide
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 6:24:46
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http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/de-my-experience-woe
I applied safer brand DE in the bed frame and light sockets following directions from canadas bedbugs on youtube.
Room is about 11 by 12.
one window.
I also applied food grade de to the base boards following instructions from canadas bedbugs on youtube.
Just wondering if hep air purifiers will help get it out of the air.
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agh
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 14:01:58
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I'm worried because I used it in my daughter's room last night, and my husband said it smelled of DE when he went in there this morning to help her out of her crib.
Oh god, I don't want to hurt my child!
I put it around edges of room with hair dye bottle, wiped it up. Big crevices in some of the hardwood under her crib, so I pub it down there, and again wiped up the excess.
I guess our house settled some during the night, but along the walls, some of it seemed to have come away from the wall. I wiped that up.
I am really scared because we have a fan going in her room (ceiling and floor fans), and I spread it just before her bedtime. She seems ok. No redness in her eyes, nothing else.Can someone tell me how, and where exactly to apply this stuff? We don't know where the BBs are. (No one can find anything except mysterious bites and a few tiny pin-drop blood stains and some hard, cylindrical poop occasionally on sheets. So, where to put the DE is kind of a guessing game in many ways.)
Maybe I shouldn't be using it in my child's room??? I don't want to harm my family.
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agh
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 14:26:16
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From what I've read, amorphous silica doesn't have the same degree of risk as crystalline silica. What I have contains the amorphous silica. Thank goodness. I had no idea what I was getting into when I bought this stuff. I am so, so grateful again for this forum!
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nancytd
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat Sep 18 2010 16:57:18
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steph_in_brooklyn - 11 months ago »
I'm late to respond to this, but wanted to add my experience with DE as spideyjg asked me to chip in after my last post here several months ago. I did have a pretty bad reaction to living with DE - in combo with pesticides - for a month. I moved out after one month of living with it. I started to notice side effects after about 2.5 weeks but they didn't get bad until about 3 weeks after I moved out. At first I was diagnosed with just a reaction to neurotoxins (from a doctor who had no background on my living situation) but as my health continued to deteriorate I've been diagnosed with thyroid dysfunction as a result of neurotoxins aka exposure to chemicals. It's something that took a while to diagnose and will take a long time to treat /could possibly require indefinite treatment.
I should point out that the company I used heaped on TONS of DE in the crevices, which quickly formed a light dusting over the rest of our floors. Also, they sprayed the mattresses with pesticides which I later learned is a big no no. And I have a lower immune system so a 6' tall guy with an immune system of steel might not notice the effects. But I would NEVER expose children or pets.
What bothers me most is that when I started to react I repeatedly called the PCO and told them I "felt like I was dying" in the apartment - I felt like I couldn't breath, had to pee like every five minutes literally, and was having constant panic attacks which I'd never had before in my life - and was having a lot of trouble sleeping around it and was repeatedly told for the treatment to work I had to continue sleeping on my bed. I ended up moving to the kitchen floor underneath an open window but the damage was already done clearly.
Personally, I'd recommend going with steam treatment or something instead of any chemical / pesticide treatment. It's really not worth the risk.I'm sorry this happened. Bed bugs are basically no health risk so the treatments are what can do harm to people. I agree. It's hard not to reach for the phone for an exterminator when I get stressed. I'm trying to be patient and wait for the "green" people to come out here. They're in no hurry, so it looks like their business is busy. I found a book that looks good on neurotoxins that I have been intending to read. PM me if you want the name of the book. (I hope nobody thinks my post means I think nobody should use chemicals.) I've been afraid of using DE because I don't think I could control the flow of dust. I'd probably end up puffing it in my face.
Edit: I just noticed the post is 11 months old.
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Patanga
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Posted 1 year ago
Thu May 5 2011 23:23:34
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I've been reading this forum voraciously these past couple of weeks after suspecting a light infestation from a visitor's luggage, but I signed up for an account when I found this post. I have had a bag of Safer brand DE sitting in my place for a while now and just cannot bring myself to use it. After reading all of the health warnings I'm petrified of causing health issues. I've since been stunned at reading the accounts on this forum and elsewhere of folks freely flinging the powder around their homes in open areas (and even on beds!).
Anywho, I found spideyjg's calculations above fascinating. It made me wonder how much DE would cause the kinds of levels described. So I took my rusty math skills and did some calculations...
Based on the second link at the start of this thread (again here), levels of 300mg/m3 require a full-face N100, R100, or P100 respirator (the kind with the two filters on each side that make you look like a human fly!).
How to get to 300mg/m3? Using US conversions, let's say an average bedroom is about 10x16 feet with a 8 foot tall ceiling (10x16x8= 1280 cubic feet (ft3)). A meter cubed (m3) is 35 cubic feet, so 1280 cubic feet is equivalent to 37 cubic meters (m3). So if 300mg/m3 required a serious filter, that converts to 11,100mg/37m3, or 11,100mg in your average US bedroom. 11,100 mg is 11.1 grams. My big bag of Safer DE is 1.8 kg or 1800 grams. 11 grams is about 2 teaspoons! For comparison, a 1/3 cup of flour is about 40 g!
So... assuming I haven't messed up my calculations, am I to presume that the equivalent of throwing 2 teaspoons of DE up into the air in my bedroom requires a serious respirator during exposure? Even if only a fraction of the DE actually becomes airborne as dust, I shudder to think about the folks that sprinkle it on their carpets or put it where air from vents hits it. These people that report taking a bottle and dumping it around must surely have more than the equivalent of a couple teaspoons of dust floating around... repeatedly... some breathing it for weeks...
Overreaction? Cause for concern? I'm just bummed because DE was going to be the jewel in the crown of my encasing/vacuuming/packtiting/dryering/decluttering self-treatment tour-de-force to begin soon.
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri May 6 2011 2:18:54
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Patanga,
People do some dangerous and crazy stuff with DE. It should not be inhaled.
However, it's possible to use freshwater food grade DE effectively and safely. See our FAQ on DE for some suggestions (including using a full respirator mask, and applying sparingly to cracks and crevices).
Also, if you're doing self-treatment, you may find a dry vapor steam cleaner very useful. See our FAQ on killing bed bugs with steam.
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spideyjg
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri May 6 2011 9:15:28
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Used lightly, in cracks and crevices or wall voids, you wear a proper respirator during application and clean up you will be fine.
We've seen hideous overapplications of the stuff but used properly the risks are very minimal.
Here was a thread no one responded to about proper quantities...
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/dust-application-test#post-100568
Jim
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Patanga
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Posted 10 months ago
Mon Jul 11 2011 0:36:41
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Thanks nobugsonme and spideyjg for your responses. I wanted to come back and post my experience with applying DE today after finally mustering enough courage! I ended up buying the Perma Guard, food-grade version of DE at a local feed store. I must say from beginning to end I've been really frustrated!
Today when I puffed the DE from my Pest Pistol into my outlets, it created a forceful cloud of dust. My plan had been to puff the DE into the outlet with an old t-shirt covering the hole so that the DE cloud would settle and not get into the air, but I found to my horror that when I lifted the t-shirt off the outlet the cloud kept swirling out. So I covered the hole again for a few seconds and when I removed the t-shirt more dust kept coming out. It never stopped no matter how long I covered the opening! It reminded me of the sinister curling of cigarette smoke as it wafted upward. I was terrified because I didn't understand where the dust was going... I had somehow imagined it would just float down and settle on the carpet that I could vaccuum up, but the dust cloud just vanished upward apparently dispersing its carcinogenic particles into the air where I couldn't see them anymore.
I'm very concerned now about what I'm supposed to do to clean up the very small amount that puffed up into the air. I'm also perplexed because I didn't think that would happen. All the threads I've read about DE make it very clear that it should never, ever get airborne when applying. But how can it not when the very action of applying (unless you stick the nozzle into a void with a hole the exact size of the nozzle) creates a small dust cloud that rapidly expands?
Given that I was wearing a 3M P-100 rated mask while applying, I left my apartment for about an hour and half and when I returned I vacuumed the carpet nearest the outlets with my hepa-equipped vacuum and then wiped down the walls with a damp sponge mop.
What concerns me is that my lungs feel noticeably tight. I'm not coughing or sneezing, but they feel tight, which is very worrysome. I'm worried that every time my air conditioning kicks on the air from the vents is blowing around the dust.
Has anyone else experienced that? How far can the DE dust move and settle from the point of origin? Should I meticulously dust every inch of my apartment and revacuum meticulously to make sure I've gotten rid of it all? Can't any movement (AC air, fans, drafts) stir the dust up? I'm not happy with DE dust at all!
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Patanga
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Posted 10 months ago
Mon Jul 11 2011 2:20:18
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Patanga - 1 hour ago »
Has anyone else experienced that? How far can the DE dust move and settle from the point of origin? Should I meticulously dust every inch of my apartment and revacuum meticulously to make sure I've gotten rid of it all? Can't any movement (AC air, fans, drafts) stir the dust up? I'm not happy with DE dust at all! While my question above still stands, I had a brilliant thought tonight that I wanted to add- would an air purifier be able to filter out DE silica particles in the air? After doing a little bit of research, though most sources just list respirable silica as being less than 10 microns in diameter (the definition of respirable apparently), this little quiz from the Electronic Library of Construction Occupational Safety and Health says that "respirable crystalline silica" is "(0.5 – 5.0 micrometers in diameter)" and apparently micrometers are the same as US microns. Though most DE folks apply is amorphous, I'm guessing the sizes are similar.
HEPA filters generally remove 99.7% of common particulates .3 microns or larger from everything I've read. But the exciting part is this: I've been lax on keeping up on buying replacement filters for my air purifier, so I've been cheating and buying those Filtrete furnace filters at Home Depot/Lowes etc. and cutting them to fit. The Ultimate Allergen 1900 kind does a decent job of removing particulates, but I just learned tonight that there is an Elite 2200 version with a MERV rating of 15, which means it filters 95% of particulates size .3-1 microns and 90% of the rest. While it's not as good as HEPA, it's a decent level of removal and a cost-effective option for folks in a similar situation as me. Folks could even buy the filter and put it on their house air intake to help deal with any DE issues. Just thought to share!
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