Could bed bug dogs be wrong? « Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums

Got Bed Bugs? Bedbugger Forums » Bed bug pest control firms (PCOs), Bed bug k9s, etc.

Could bed bug dogs be wrong?

(75 posts)

[closed]

Started 4 years ago by completelyoverwhelmedinnyc
Latest reply from DougSummersMS
Related Topics:

Tags:

completelyoverwhelmedinnyc

newbite
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 1
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 1 2009 18:11:38
#

Login to Send PM

Hi everyone,

My apartment has recently been entrenched in battle against these disgusting creatures. After one resident began complaining of bites, a bed bug dog was enlisted and confirmed that that apartment, as well as several adjoining apartments had bed bugs. When they sent the bed bug dog around to all other apartments, mine in addition to at least half of the other 80 or so apartments received hits.

However, our coop board decided to get a second opinion, and enlisted a different company to come in with two dogs. This time around, neither my apartment nor the apartment next to me received any hits (we share a private entrance separate from the rest of the building).

Nonetheless, my apartment and all other "non-infested" apartments were given preventative crack and crevice treatment as a precaution.

Now, a couple of weeks after that treatment, I have recently noticed some telltale signs including a comet-like blood streak on my pillow and a few very tiny red bumps on my skin. Could the bed bug dogs be wrong? Or is the more likely conclusion that I got infested AFTER the inspection and treatment? Or am I just going crazy here?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated...
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 1 2009 20:27:55
#

Login to Send PM

The short answer is bed bug dogs can be wrong. The best case you're looking at maybe 95% accurate. Some bed bug k9s teams are probably much more accurate than other teams.

You already know bed bug k9 teams can be wrong, because either the dog was right that said you did have bed bugs, or the dogs were right who said you didn't.

No one can say when you got bed bugs based on this scenario (assuming you have bed bugs).

The problem with a second opinion is if it is different from the first opinion, which do you believe? The one that tells you (management) what they want to hear?
freedom241

newbite
Joined: Oct '07
Posts: 19
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 1 2009 20:49:56
#

Login to Send PM

The dogs shouldn't get it wrong, it would be the team. The dog is only as good as the person handling it. As a dog handler myself I have done countless searches behind other dogs and I'm always told the same thing--"the other guy didn't do this..." At least, one hide should be placed at the location. First, to prove that the dog can actually find bed bugs. Second, to get the dog focused and locked-in on scent. And third, the environment should be as conducive as possible for a dog search. There is preparation involved and there are limits to what the dog can do. My personal opinion, if the dog misses--it's usually the fault of the handler and not the dog--if it's a true, certified bed bug dog.
bugged18

newbite
Joined: Feb '09
Posts: 33
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 1 2009 21:39:35
#

Login to Send PM

You could have been infested from the inspection. There are people here on the forum who have found their first BB on their cat full of blood. They could have easily been on the inspectors ( people here have found them crawling on their clothes ) also : ( I am not saying that is what happened, I am saying it is a possibility.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 1 2009 23:14:14
#

Login to Send PM

How long between the two inspections?

I agree with Freedom241... when there is a problem with a K9 team the problem usually traces back to the handler rather than the dog.

I also agree with NoBugs... I suspect that the second K9 teams missed the problem

I sent a PM to you with some questions.

It is unlikely that the bugs were brought in by the K9. Bed bugs do not jump, hop or fly and it is rare for them to travel on a dog. If a pet is living in an infested environment, then bed bugs may feed on them as an alternative host. If the K9 does not lie on infested furniture or sleep in the affected unit... it is unlikely that the dog will transport bed bugs to an unaffected location
buggela

junior member
Joined: Dec '08
Posts: 36
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 2 2009 0:03:20
#

Login to Send PM

I had 2 different dog handlers this week. The first did not do a hide and found nothing the second did do a hide and made a BB hit. It was not what I wanted but what I suspected.
I wish all companies would follow the same protocol. It would make it easier to know which to believe.
paulaw0919

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,159
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 2 2009 9:24:03
#

Login to Send PM

I would like to believe that K9 teams can be a very useful tool in the fight. But in all honesty, you have to know that the team you hire is very very good in working together, that the handler is very vigilant and accurate in their daily training. You can have the best dog in the world but if the handler doesn't have a clue on reading the dogs personal behavior, the 95% accuracy can be way off.

From my personal experience using k9 detection in our home, k9's I think are more apt to give a false positive hit for food then a false negative. (just based on my experience) I had hired 4 different companies over a 8 month period, 2 of those companies on repeat visits were the best I believe I could find. I agree with NoBugs , Freedom as well, and in what Doug says about chances being slim on the k9 bringing bugs into a unit.
I think results hugely depend on K9/handler communication and proper follow up training. If the follow up training isn't done correctly, if the handler misses some cues the dog is giving, it can lead to mis-readings.
From the consumers point of view, I say to make sure you find the most knowledgeable k9 team in that the handler really really knows his dog...before you hire them. Unfortunately this is not such an easy thing to do. Finding this info the hard way as proved very costly.
An example of "false positive" alerts are from my experience last spring. I had some possible signs at various times such as possible bites on my children, few blood spots on the sheets (weeks apart) which caused me to try and get some verification one way or the other if we had them again. I had a 2 dog team come in and both K9's alerted to the same 2 areas in the home. (bar stools and one mattress) Next day, I had a different k9 team come in and also hit on the bar stools, showed much interest in the same mattress and hit on the same bar stools. PCO and I tried to find a bug, a fecal stain to no avail. I tossed the stools out in argument with my spouse. We chose to do nothing for 4 wks and then brought in yet another k9 team (that we used in the past and trusted) and we got the all clear. After a month of doing nothing in the home, giving the bugs time to grow in population, I would think that detailed inspection of that k9 team would have to have picked up on something if there were bugs in the house. I don't know how much help this is, but I thought it only right to put my experience out there.

Now, a year later, having 3 children and 4 beds to look after I still very occasionally find a blood spot on the bed, and/or some type of reactions on the kids which drive me nuts at times, not knowing if it's bites or not. After bed bugs I think one will have that wonder for a long time to come.
Knowing that I've visited family on occasion that had bed bugs, and with every day travels with my children, I know I can pick up bed bugs at any time. We chose to get the CDC3000 and recently tested each bedroom in our home for 2 nights each room. All came up clear. This obviously tells me that the two dog team I hired and the other team gave us false positive alerts. I guess a false alert can go either way when/if it happens, but this is what happened to us. Being a home owner, responsible for my home, if I suspected bed bugs, it would be nice to hire the best k9 team I feel is qualified to inspect and then if the k9 was to hit, use the CDC3000 in that area to confirm(as Sean did during inspecting a low level infestation of an office environment) but this isn't financially possible for the common home owner as myself. A good k9 team may be able to locate an infestation earlier than the monitor, but to me I feel that the monitor won't be giving a false positive alert and will assist in catching an infestation at a much earlier stage than looking myself if I were to get infested again.

I can say this though...I hope to finally purchase new furniture for our living room sometime this year. Because we have no choice but to have it delivered to the house, I am seriously thinking about hiring a k9 team to inspect the furniture before it enters the home.
Emmm

member
Joined: Mar '09
Posts: 267
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 2 2009 10:38:03
#

Login to Send PM

A CDC machine won't give a false positive, but I bet they give a few false negatives. Just in my very limited experience.

We were lucky in our dealings with a K9 unit. First, I understand the company we used is among the best, so I felt confident in going with them. Inspections were finding NOTHING, and the dog finally gave us a starting point in which to treat. Maybe it means we got everything really quickly. When our chosen PCO was in (recommended by the handler and on here), they still couldn't find anything until finally tackling the living room, and it was on a couch the dog had not actually identified. So while the dog was a great tool, he wasn't perfect. I'm unsure if I want to use it to give us the all clear later on because of that.

But I certainly don't regret using one in the beginning.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 4 2009 12:04:41
#

Login to Send PM

As I have stated in the past the current alleged certification processes offered by those groups that offer BB dogs for sale lacks transparency. I have suggested that that those who sell BB dogs can not be affiliated with the certification process. These alleged bed bug dog certifications lack the third party proctor process. People that sell and train the BB dogs are clearly associated with there own alleged certification process. This is a conflict of interest. When one claims a certified BB dog ........don't, necessarily believe it. Wen you here a dog has 600 hours of training.........don't necessarily believe it.

This statement is such a stretch that, it is laughable. Think about it, 600 hours is fifteen 40 hour weeks or 30 twenty hour weeks of one on one training. Even if the BB dog training facilities trained 30 hours a week on a one-on-one basis as they claim, it would amount to 4.29 hours per day. Federal law enforcement K9 training agency's i.e, US Customs Boarder Patrol handlers may do three one-on-one 15 minute training scenarios a day, five days a week for, 12 weeks. The rest of the time the dog is resting next to the handler while the handler observes other canines and handlers or are receiving class room instruction. The idea is, not to burn the dog out.

I want to address the staging of live bed bugs at a inspection location and the problem with that process.. The problem that develops is, what if the area where the BB's are staged has an infestation.? Does the handler reinspect that area again to see if the dog will alert with out the staged BB vile?

Scent k9's if trained correctly should know that they have already inspected that area. How one might ask? Because their own scent is still present. This could potential create a conflict with the dog. Doug Summers has already stated in other threads that they don't reinspect.

And Paula you are correct about the food motivation trained K9 subject to more false positives. Food is the number one need in the dogs hiarchy. Food motivation training is fine for circus animals or lab animal testing. It is not a wise training technique for specialty search, scent, discrimination, task k9 detection. If food motivation was as good as the sellers of
BB dogs claim your your Federal, State, Local police and search and rescue dogs agency's would train using food. They do not. Moreover, when a food motivated dog is satiated it will not want to work.

The other problem I have is, dogs that are worked on leash. This too, is a major factor for generating the false positive or false negative alert. Think about it: the handler is asking the BB dog to find the bed bugs. But what you see is the handler directing the dog with the leash around the area of concern. That is like having a blind person directing a seeing person.
If the process was really transparent would not, the dog show the handler where, he needs to go? After all we are relying on the dogs amazing ability to smell and show us where the bed bugs are.

I say a well trained dog will operated and do its detection work off lead. How does the dog now where to go then? It knows where to go in a an area by automatically honing in on the scent cone if, one exists. And then the K9 knows where not to go because it recognizes where it has already been based on the establishment and presence of its own scent. The K9 thus rules out the need for further search. When the k9 is worked off lead it prevents the potential for handler manipulation.

Gary Broberg
Bed Bug Dog Inspections LLC
buggyinsocal

oldtimer
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 2,440
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 4 2009 12:39:34
#

Login to Send PM

When one claims a certified BB dog ........don't, necessarily believe it. Wen you here a dog has 600 hours of training.........don't necessarily believe it.

Did someone here suggest that specific dogs have received 600 hours of training? I haven't heard that figure before. (Of course, since I went with thermal, I didn't have the need to use a bb detection dog, but still. ) I'd be curious to know how frequently people attempt to make that claim.

Does the handler reinspect that area again to see if the dog will alert with out the staged BB vile?

While I clearly think that bed bugs are a heinous, evil, and yes, even vile pest, I believe you meant to use the homophone for that last adjective, the word vial.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 4 2009 16:36:44
#

Login to Send PM

Emmm - 2 days ago »
A CDC machine won't give a false positive, but I bet they give a few false negatives

I agree completely... especially if the monitor is used for a short time in a room with an light infestation.

One advantage with utilizing a K9 team is that we can identify the bed bug harborages in less than three minutes a room in real time rather than waiting for days to weeks for the monitor to trap a specimen.

The issue of certification really deserves a separate thread, but I would briefly argue that each training facility has a vested interest to ensure that the K9 teams that they endorse are competent in performing an accurate bed bug inspection.

Some handlers are reluctant to bring a sealed vial of live bed bugs into a building because it may expose them to accusations of creating an infestation.

Florida Canine Academy does not recommend the use of a second dog to reinspect the primary K9s alerts on a routine basis. The use of two dogs to inspect for bed bugs is a technique that was developed by Richard Cooper in an attempt to address the false alert issues that they were experiencing while field testing NESDCA dogs for Pepe.

The food reward & off leash issues are rhetorical.

Search & rescue teams have traditions that differ from those that are utilized for forensic applications like arson & bomb dog work. There are two schools of thought on these practices.

Many sensitive K9 applications are performed on a leash. Drug, bomb & arson dogs are typically worked on a lead... while many of these teams utilize toy play as a reward... toy play reward isn't real practical for bed bug work. Food, toy play or praise all serve as a means to deliver a positive reward to the dog.

We have a history of training dogs for arson detection that have been used to send people to death row. The techniques that we utilize have been scrutinized thoroughly by the appellate court system and are supported by extensive research.

If someone can produce evidence that dogs worked on a leash are intrinsically inaccurate then I imagine that there are hundreds of criminal defense attorneys that would love to see that evidence.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 4 2009 18:00:57
#

Login to Send PM

BuggyinSoCal

You are absolutely right.

Bed bugs are vile
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 4 2009 19:16:46
#

Login to Send PM

Doug, I am unclear as to what you mean by the leash issue and the food reward are rhetorical.
I believe I made my point and position very well.

Drug K9's that are crossed protection trained are often work on lead to prevent the dog from
biting an unaffiliated person. Typically every effort is made to prevent tension of the lead between K9 and handler.

Drug dogs not cross trained with protection and bite tasks typically will work off lead. A dog that does not work off lead just in not trained to work off lead. And why?

Because it takes a lot more time and effort.

Let me clarify when, I say Off lead I mean, where the leash is still attached but not held buy the handler.

I have discussed the theory of tension correction in the past Every effort must be made to prevent this occurrence. The result is K9 will have a tendency to disavow the previous command.

You unsubstantiated statement that praise play reward is unpractical does not make sense. I reward my dogs with a toy and praise when they alert positively. My dog knows that the balls porpoise while her working vest is on is, not for play. It is used to acknowledge her positive alert. She drops it immediatly and then moves on. That same ball is used when she is exercised. She will run after the after that same ball with tremendous intensity fifty times.

K9 Bed bud scent detection tasks are no different then that of finding drugs, money, termites incendiary product, bomb material or, people. I think you are updated on the problems with food motivated bomb dogs in the past. They developed a tendency to lie for their reward. This was because their typically was and is very little incidence of bomb material when a K9 team is called out. The dog was not getting its food reward and began to lie. ATF has attempted to resolve that problem problem with the false alerts by staging material at a location that turned out to not have bomb material. That is why the staged bed bugs at a search location became necessary

I don't stage bed bugs at a search location for my dogs.

My dog can eat at home any time it wants. Its food bowl is always filled even after they have just eaten.

I never lead my dog in the search processes;, they lead me to where the bed bugs are, as I do not have the olfactory sense that they have.

Finally, I very aware the dissatisfaction of handlers with their dogs trained to work on a connected lead and with food motivation. Knowing what I know about these training techniques, I would have a tough time sleeping at night, knowing that a person was scent to death row because, of my food motivated, on-lead, k9, search work. Moreover, I am supporter of capitol punishment.

Kind regards,

Gary Broberg
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 5 2009 2:54:51
#

Login to Send PM

Gary,
Your assertions are clear... I meant rhetorical in the sense that there is more than one correct answer to those questions.

We have a number of reasons for preferring to work our dogs on lead.

There are a variety of hazards that can be found in an occupied unit such as rat traps, poisons, improperly applied pesticide agents, unsecured food, needles, carpet tack strips, broken glass, weapons, drugs, exposed wiring & other items that pose a danger to the dogs health.

Not to mention the occasional angry cat that seems to materialize out of nowhere. I once watched my career pass before my eyes as I pulled my dog short of a large fragile art object that was likely worth more than my annual income.

All arson detection K9 alerts are checked with laboratory testing that is performed on the samples that are obtained from the locations that are identified by the dog.

The arson dog screens a burned out building to identify the locations of pinpoint drops of flammable substances like gasoline which the handler collects for the lab to analyze in a mass spectral gas chromatograph machine.

The identity of the flammable substance is actually determined by the lab before it can be introduced as evidence in a trial.

If the samples were taken from the clothing of a suspect that was picked out of the crowd watching a fatal fire by a K9 team... then I would say that the community is safer with another homicidal arsonist confined on death row & sleep very peacefully.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 5 2009 13:05:37
#

Login to Send PM

Doug, if your dogs were trained to respond to stop, heal, stay, back, go, move left, move right you and the people who purchase your working dogs would feel more confident. These are utility, direct ability commands that take considerably more of your time to teach. Why just give you and your customer dogs a high school education when you can give them a college education. It also allows, for the transparency that people who purchase bed bug detection services feel more confident with.

FEMA Urban Search and Rescue K'9s all operate off lead in hostile environments 100 time worse than anything our bed bug dogs are subject too. Some wear booties. Most do not.

As a full time rated fire fighter of 22 years, hazardous materials instructor and fire service instructor I am familiar with the mass spectral gas chromatograph function. I do not have issue with it. My issue is not with what the arson K9's detects. It is what they do not detect that I have concern with.

Arson K'9's specifically do not key in on gasoline as you have alleged. The are trained to detect the incendiary components, i.e, toluene benzine xylene. These chemical constituents literally exist in hundreds of household products. For example a can of WD-40 has these incendiary components.

An unexplainable fire starts near the can of WD-40. The Wd-40 can release its product. A arson dog comes in and detects some of the above mentioned incendiary products. Did it come from the WD-40 or, did some one actually pour gas to get the fire started. I would not know, you would not know and neither would any one else know. More over, the chromatograph would not be able to tell us. As a result, the science in using the arson dog becomes imperfect.

Kind regards,
Gary Broberg
buggyinsocal

oldtimer
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 2,440
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 5 2009 13:27:48
#

Login to Send PM

Just a quick aside because we've veered into territory that does come back to my area of professional expertise . . .

Technically, the word rhetoric means of or relating to an argument. That's its denotive definition. The study of rhetoric is one of the oldest branches of academic study, with many of the principles we teach in classrooms today being the invention of ancient civilizations like the Greeks.

In colloquial or conversational English, people often use the word to mean something that is done without substance and only for flourish, as in a rhetorical question (i.e., a question whose answer seems so clear to the orator or writer that he or she presumes the audience will answer the exact same way that the orator or writer intended--even though in arguments that's almost never the case).

It looks to me like Doug is using the word in that second sense--that he's saying that there is not consensus within the bed bug detection canine community over the food rewards and working off leash.

Which, unless I'm misreading him, sounds a lot like the debate over training pet dogs in general that I heard referenced on NPR just the other day, which I now can't find. If I can find the link, I'll post it. It was with the author of One Nation Under Dog.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 6 2009 11:17:10
#

Login to Send PM

Exactly, the lead & food reward issues can be argued either way.

Both approaches are currently being utilized in the field with good success.

Some of our handlers work their dogs off lead in unoccupied hotel rooms... it is a more controlled environment than an occupied residence.

We encourage our handlers to train their dogs to respond on voice control, but recommend the use of a lead for safety.

You are correct, gasoline is a cocktail of chemicals... We use gasoline during training to imprint the component odors.

A burned out structure is a challenging environment in which to conduct an investigation... the arson dog is utilized as a screening device ... it may not be perfect, but it is an effective tool that enables us to utilize an evolving science to reconstruct a fire scene.
OverTheseBugs7

newbite
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 3
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 6 2009 14:14:26
#

Login to Send PM

so I have been battling with BB's for 4 months now. I have had 5 treatments, and spent weeks sealing cracks in my walls, floorboards, dorways and and even floor boards. I have seen many live ones crawling on the walls or the floor in my bed room on the mornings and just don't know what I am doing wrong. I know a few other units in my building currently have problems of have had them in the recent past but I don't know where the source is. Would a k9 dog be able to track where they are coming from? Anyone have a good company to recommend in the NYC area?
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 6 2009 23:34:34
#

Login to Send PM

OverTheseBugs7

I am going to tell you to keep your money, You know you have a problem. You have constant visuals. And you live in a multi unit building. The dog will tell you for the most part, what you already know.

The value of the dog would be, in having it check apartments that, have no complaints, to see if they are in fact, infested.

I would try some isolation techniques. Double back tape along the mouldings and carpet, above your bed around your bed etc.

The problem with living in a multi unit facility is that, many of the units are infested without, the management knowing. And in some cases the neighbors themselves, do not realize it.

There is a large portion of the population that are not allergic to the bed bug. I am one of those. I am not allergic to bed bugs. I feed my own contained bug populations. No welts, redness or, itching develops.

If you isolate yourself and prevent the bed bugs from feeding on you they will leave and go to your neighbors.

It won't solve the building bed bug problem. But it might offer you some relief.

Check a thread "War against bed bugs." It shows the isolation techniques that were used very successfully.

Hope this helps.

Gary Broberg
Bed Bug Dog Inspections LLC
Cleveland, Ohio
paulaw0919

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,159
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 7:42:59
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 7 hours ago »
If you isolate yourself and prevent the bed bugs from feeding on you they will leave and go to your neighbors.
It won't solve the building bed bug problem. But it might offer you some relief.

Oh come on now. Are you serious about that? Let's just tell some one to isolate the bed and "wish" the bugs away and all is good with the world.

You're really showing your true intellect now Gary.

Overthesebugs...I am not a professional, but I can tell you this for sure. Isolation may help in getting less bites for a while yes, but it will not solve the problem in your apartment or "make the bugs leave and go to your neighbors." Some bugs may spread to another units for an easier food source and make the problem worse in the building, yes. But because there is a person in your apartment, the bugs sense a food source and stay right where they are and wait. The bugs can live up to a year without food and they sense food. They are not going anywhere. It's been known for apartments to be empty for many months and then when a new person moves in, well yes...the new tenant finds out the hard way that the person before hand was fighting them.

Keep reading the Faq's on the site. In fact many people don't fully isolate the bed and still get rid of bed bugs. Getting rid of bed bugs requires persistance, vigilance and a good experienced PCO that knows bed bugs. Of course if you have questions, there are others here that can help as well.

Hatesbedbugs is correct on you needed K9 detection. Best way to attack is to get a good inspection of the surrounding units all around you and then to get proper treatment.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 11:36:16
#

Login to Send PM

You could have a K9 team check the building & map the affected units. The map could provide some indication of the migration within the building.

The larger benefit would be realized if all of the affected units were treated effectively, which might eliminate the reservoir of bed bugs that are responsible for the re-infestation of your unit.

The question to consider is... How will the information gained from the K9 inspection be used to increase the effectiveness of the treatment efforts?

In some cases, the results may not change our treatment plan or improve the efficacy of the treatment approach.
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 7 2009 12:56:51
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 13 hours ago »

If you isolate yourself and prevent the bed bugs from feeding on you they will leave and go to your neighbors.
It won't solve the building bed bug problem. But it might offer you some relief.

As Paula said, this is not true.

You may keep bed bugs from biting you with bed isolation or other techniques, but it does not make them go away.

They will go without feeding for 18 months, we are told. They will remain desperate to feed.

In fact, if you isolate the bed or chairs to prevent bites there, they may instead crawl right up your leg as you stand in the room or sit on the toilet.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 12 2009 13:03:54
#

Login to Send PM

LET"S GET THE FACTS CORRECT PAULAW and NOBUGS

There is no research that suggest bed bugs can go up to twelve months without feeding. One would be hard pressed to find research that indicates that Bed bugs can live 12 months with out feeding.

There is however, research that indicates that bugs have a life span of 12 to 18 months. Some research even suggests less.

I have multi molt stage colonies of bed bugs from five different geographical areas. The oldest bug I have ever had was 297 days old.

Isolation can be a very effective means for preventing bed bugs from biting oneself. If they don't have a host they seek out other hosts or will cease to live. True it is harder in a multi unit complex. None-the-less there are people that have posted their success on bed bugger.

Gary Broberg
BED BUG DOG DETECTION LLC
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 12 2009 14:03:07
#

Login to Send PM

Gary
There is laboratory evidence of an unfed female bed bug living up to 565 days at 55 degrees F... The females in the colony in that experiment lived a mean average of 360 days at 55 degrees F (Busvine 1966).

Isolation alone is extremely unlikely to result in complete eradication of bed bugs from an occupied residence.

Usinger's Monograph relates an account of an unoccupied outhouse that remained infested for over 18 months without a human host present (Bacot 1914). Ormi (1941) found that unfed fifth instars survived an average of 484 days at 50 degrees F.

Check out Renee's article on bed bug longevity at New York vs Bed Bugs...
Here is a link to the page http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/category/history/

If bed bugs sense a warm blooded host present... they are not likely to disperse completely.

If the client's isolation techniques are less than 100% effective (which is likely), then we will see continued development with new generations of nymphs & continued growth, molting, egg production, ect.

The biggest factor affecting bed bug longevity is the ambient temperature of the residence.

Higher temps will result in shorter lifespans.... but a favorable temperature also promotes faster development times with more eggs that hatch sooner.
spideyjg

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 3,201
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 12 2009 15:32:15
#

Login to Send PM

Gary,
Usingers Monograph is considered the BB bible and is Usinger's own research and pouring over the decades of prior research and long life under starvation has been observed several times.

Recreate Ormi's experiment and allow a fresh molted stage to feed once then time it's death by starvation.

Jim
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 15:02:22
#

Login to Send PM

The subsequent posts with this thread were in response to the initial post by OVERWHELMED who lives in a 80 unit apartment complex that is infested. Now, how do we help this person minimize her exposure to potential bed bug bites? Is Thermal Pure Heat an Option? .....Probably not. Let me say this now, that if you, OVERWHELMED can get the Thermal Pure Heat process done, it is, the most effective process for the irradication of bed bugs.

The problem is that, all of the other dwellings in the building along with hallways and corridors need, to be treated with the heat process as well. I have stated in a number of other threads that Thermal Pure Heat is the best technology.

I have recommended it to clients who solved their BB problem. I was remiss in not mentioning it in this thread and I appologize.

The subject of further use of K9's was mentioned. I submitted that, it was over kill in that it would only confirm again, what you already kmow.

I further suggested trying isolation which includes a number of techniques ie., double back tape etc. The thread can be found by googling Bed Bugs - It's War and I am Going to Win. Isolation techniques apparently worked well for this person.

This was presented as an option which may or may not minimize OVERWHELMED'S exposure to bed bug bites.

Paula further,made insulting comments questioning my intelligence.

Paula who confirmed that he/she is not a professional disagreed with my suggestion of using isolation techniques and stated in absolute terms that, "if the bugs sence a food source they stay right where they are and wait"

I say then, LET THE BED BUGS WAIT! Again, the here is to help OVERWHELMED find relief which, can be gained with relatively little expense and effort

Nobugs stated, in absolute terms that, "bed bugs WILL go without feeding for 18 months".

Doug agreed with Nobugs and gave an accounting which suggested though, one needs to live by an out house to determine such an occurrence.

According to all of the (recent ) research that I have read, 18 months without feeding is, certainly not the norm. Temperature and other extenuating factors come into play.

What I would like to see is, some of the posters offering some concrete suggestions. I tried. They did not like what I had to suggested.

I am sorry OVERWHELMED if we failed you.

Kind regards,

Gary Broberg
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 17:03:42
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 1 day ago »
Isolation can be a very effective means for preventing bed bugs from biting oneself. If they don't have a host they seek out other hosts or will cease to live. True it is harder in a multi unit complex. None-the-less there are people that have posted their success on bed bugger.

Isolating a bed can help people keep bed bugs from biting them in bed. However, it does so because it keeps bed bugs in the room from climbing onto the bed.

If bed bugs are present in the room or apartment, they will climb onto sofas, chairs, computer chairs, or even crawl up someone's leg as they stand in the kitchen or sit on a toilet. Sorry that's graphic, but it has been reported to us.

If you think bed bugs only bite people in beds, Gary, then you must not have much experience with bed bugs.

Please point us to the people on bedbugger.com who isolated their beds and then found that the bed bugs left their apartments and went elsewhere.
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 17:48:11
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs,

You are ceaselessly the source of lawn, drawn-out discussions which distract from the original poster's questions. You seem to enjoy baiting people and insulting them.

You are right that we should focus on the original poster's question, but you have, in fact, been the source of distraction.

hatesbedbugs - 2 hours ago »

Nobugs stated, in absolute terms that, "bed bugs WILL go without feeding for 18 months".
Doug agreed with Nobugs and gave an accounting which suggested though, one needs to live by an out house to determine such an occurrence.
According to all of the (recent ) research that I have read, 18 months without feeding is, certainly not the norm. Temperature and other extenuating factors come into play.

You quoted me out of context, I said,

They will go without feeding for 18 months, we are told.

You're right, 18 months is likely a rare occurrence. I admit that "will" is too forceful. I should have said "may." They may certainly die before then. If the person leaves the unit, they may walk away.

However, bed bugs remaining unfed and alive for 12 months been noted by Harold Harlan. For example, Harlan is quoted here as saying:

"Adult bed bugs can live longer than a whole year without feeding...".

Other sources are much more conservative (Cornell says 2 months or longer).

There is no evidence -- in the presence of, and with access to a living human being, inside the same apartment unit -- that bed bugs will get up and leave your home because you isolated the bed, caulked, applied double sided tape, or did any other "isolation" techniques.

I don't see any mention of that course of events by Frank of the War on Bed bugs blog (the poster on Bedbugger you mention). If you do, please link to them, or stop talking about it.

Isolation can be useful but does not make bed bugs in an apartment walk out of it.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 20:14:48
#

Login to Send PM

Well, there you have it OVERWHELMED. Nobugs says that isolation will not work. According to her they will climb up on you while you are in your chair or on the toilet and then bite you.

So, "do not" do the following: Do not purchase any plastic sheeting 1/8 to 1/4 mil. Amount of plastic sheeting should be larger then the area of your apartment. Lay the sheeting through out the area of the apartment. The sheeting should extend at least one foot up the walls. Secure with double back tape.

The bathroom will require you to cut a whole for the toilet and the sink. Secure the cut seam with duck tape and secure 1 foot above the floor line around toilet and sink. If you feel your desk or chairs are infested you can, place desk and chairs in the separate plastic sheeting over lap and secure with double back tape along the seam. If you want to continue to use the sitting furniture after you have covered then, use enough material so that you will not tear the material when sitting. 700sq. ft of 1/4 mil sheeting is about $25.00. You may feel the need to create barriers for your radio lamps and television. It can be done. They are electric. Caution should be exercised. Ventilated areas must not be covered. I would suggest setting in aluminum tins. Put some vaseline around the edges which, will prevent bed bugs from escaping and entering.

The door area, elevated vents should, have double back tape around them, on the plastic sheet by the apartment exit. Also, create a parameter on the ceiling that, is over your bed that, extends out beyond the area of the mattress. Do not google War on Bed bugs as, Nobugs seems I stated. Because that is not what I wrote. Rather, Google: ( Its War and I am Going to Win Double back Tape). It is about effective isolation techniques but in a single family dwelling. They even provide photos. What I have not suggested, is in addition, to what they had success with. Non-the-less the process is applicable to your situation for minimizing your direct bed bug exposure.

Hope this helps.

Gary Broberg
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 20:28:34
#

Login to Send PM

Minor correction. The plastic sheeting/visqueen is not 1/4 mil. It should be at least 4 mil.

Gary Broberg
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Mon Apr 13 2009 20:36:20
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 18 minutes ago »
Do not google War on Bed bugs as, Nobugs seems I stated. Because that is not what I wrote. Rather, Google: ( Its War and I am Going to Win Double back Tape). It is about effective isolation techniques but in a single family dwelling. They even provide photos. What I have not suggested, is in addition, to what they had success with.

Gary, why don't you step away from the snotty, sarcastic tone long enough to paste in the actual URL you are referring to. THAT would be helpful to everyone. I went to trouble to document my sources by linking to them. If you link to it, everyone will know what you're talking about.

And please, be civil.

Why not be pleasant to me and everyone else here?

Can you disagree specifically with exact points people are making, and point us to the sources you're referring to?

If you can't be pleasant, please go away. I am the host and I can say that, just as I would if someone in my own living room was continually rude and obnoxious to myself and my other guests.
allinmyhead

newbite
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 14
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 14 2009 8:53:12
#

Login to Send PM

Just to go back to the dog issue for a minute:

A pest control guy I talked to today (who seemed quite knowledeable and up to date on subjects) said he learned that dogs aren't always successful because they use small dogs, and sometimes the bedbugs are higher up in the walls (say chest or head high) and then the dogs can't smell them.

Just passing along what I learned...
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 14 2009 9:01:59
#

Login to Send PM

Renee/nobugs, if some one responds to your comments or position with even the slightest of upgrade or, disagreement you retort with pious, righteous, indignation and contempt. And that is too bad. For the most part, readers of your web site are not going call you on your position. I think it is very unfortunate that you want me to stop contributing to your web site. I actually find it childish

Here is the URL: http://thebedbugwar.blogspot.com/
losingit

member
Joined: Nov '08
Posts: 292
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 14 2009 9:29:12
#

Login to Send PM

Pretty please? 'Overwhelmed' came here looking for advice not the Local Debaters Club. Can we stick to the question posed? It's all well and good discussing the merits of one option over another citing studies and data (which IS interesting), but this thread seems to have lost it's way in terms of practical advice and support for the poster...
paulaw0919

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,159
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 14 2009 9:39:27
#

Login to Send PM

FYI...Renee and NoBugs is NOT the same person.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 16 2009 21:46:46
#

Login to Send PM

AllInMyHead

Let me respond to your question.

A pest control guy I talked to today (who seemed quite knowledeable and up to date on subjects) said he learned that dogs aren't always successful because they use small dogs, and sometimes the bedbugs are higher up in the walls (say chest or head high) and then the dogs can't smell them.

The claim that a small K9 cannot locate bed bugs high on a wall or ceiling is a myth.

We hide vials of bed bugs behind a clock & on top of cabinets which are 6 to 8 foot off the floor on a routine basis. I have not observed any noticeable difference in accuracy between small dogs like Jack Russells or Beagles and large dogs like Labs or German Shepards .

Detecting bed bugs that are seven foot off the ground is more challenging than searching furniture & beds because of the increased distance between the specimen and the dog. If we are searching a bed we can get within three feet of any point when we walk around the perimeter.

Unlike outdoor settings, indoor air recirculates and gravity will tend to bring scented particulates to the floor. The dogs have demonstrated that they can detect the smell of bugs hiding on walls & ceilings ... which we know from actual field experience in addition to our in-house observations of K9 capabilities in the training room.

The size of the dog is not the issue compared to the distance to the target odor and the patterns of the indoor air movement. The issue is did we get the dog into the scent cone where the K9 can detect the odor?

If placing drugs above the ceiling could fool a drug K9... wouldn't all drug dealers be placing their contraband in the attic?

It turns out that the attic tactic doesn't fool drug K9s....Bed Bug Dogs can likewise detect a colony of bed bugs that is hiding behind a painting, a smoke detector, crown molding, light fixtures, popcorn texture coating or ceiling tiles in a residential setting.
jessip

newbite
Joined: Sep '08
Posts: 14
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 17 2009 0:35:46
#

Login to Send PM

I read with great interest every post dealing with dogs and heat. I think they are the death of bed bugs. My problem, who is really helping with the bed bug problem. Mr. Broberg is not, he's only happy arguing and almost always bringing nothing to the table. After attending the EPA Convention, I must say I wonder about Mr. Summers too.

While at the convention I had the pleasure of speaking with Mr. Rick Cooper and asked him about his development of the two dog system as Mr. Summers stated in his earlier post. Mr. Cooper was unaware he developed any dog system. I quoted Mr. Summers about field testing NESDCA dogs for Pepe to address false alert issues. Mr. Cooper stated he has not conducted any field testing for NESDCA or Pepe. He also stated that he had a dog from Pepe that he utilized and spent a vast amount of time conducting his own testing. As a leading expert in the bed bug field, I asked him if he hired a dog to conduct an inspection would he have a preference? Remember Mr. Summers statement above: Mr. Cooper stated he would ONLY utilize NESDCA certified dogs and he would ONLY use dogs who came from Pepe because he's the only one who's training program has been independently researched by the University of Florida showing a very low false alert percentage. I also had the opportunity while at the convention to see the book about bed bugs that Mr. Cooper took part in writing. NESDCA was the only certifying organization and Pepe the only training academy mentioned in the book, that I seen. I could be looking at it wrong but that wouldn't seem like the smartest thing to do, putting them in your published book that's viewed as the bed bug bible, if you have a problem with either of them.

Mr. Broberg, I'm sorry but I don't have time to argue, I'm here for help. Mr. Summers I would welcome your response to this.

Again, I have to ask, are we being helped or being sold?
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 17 2009 0:39:24
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 2 days ago »
Renee/nobugs, if some one responds to your comments or position with even the slightest of upgrade or, disagreement you retort with pious, righteous, indignation and contempt. And that is too bad. For the most part, readers of your web site are not going call you on your position. I think it is very unfortunate that you want me to stop contributing to your web site. I actually find it childish
Here is the URL: http://thebedbugwar.blogspot.com/

hatesbedbugs,

See, I did not understand you because you originally were not clear. You originally said,

"Check a thread "War against bed bugs." It shows the isolation techniques that were used very successfully. "

When people talk about "threads" they mean discussions on this website. Now you have linked to show us what you're talking about, yes, I have seen it. The man isolated his bed (a technique our FAQs also provide as an option for people to avoid bites, not as an option to eliminate bed bugs).

Read again: he also sprayed the heck out of his home with Raid. This is a technique I would not recommend. And it certainly does not support your idea that he made bed bugs go away simply by isolating the bed. Raid is a pesticide. Not the best treatment for bed bugs, either, by a long shot.

Your response to anyone disagreeing with you is for you to ignore the facts and links they provide, and proceed to make more claims of your own. (Cover your entire home with a tarp? Did anyone else think that was insane, or was it just me?!?)

If readers of this website have any concerns about how I respond to them, I am open to them. The truth is I am perfectly able to respect people's points of view. I am happy to engage with anyone on that.

The truth is, I have had many complaints about your behavior on the site. Many complaints. You are not respectful of others' points of view and you generally do not support your assertions with facts or citations or even links to show what you are referring to. Doing so would be helpful.

And no, I am not Renee.

And about completelyoverwhelmed-- this poster last logged in two weeks ago, when s/he left the post at top.

Thankfully, since s/he did not login again to read it, there's no evidence this conversation drove this poster away. But I do hope they found some help.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 17 2009 16:27:56
#

Login to Send PM

Jessip

Cooper seems to have a business relationship with Pepe & he recommends that people purchase dogs from Pepe. I was merely pointing out the Cooper experimented with the use of a two dog re-inspection approach which was also described in the article that he wrote for PCT shortly before he posted this comment.on Bedbugger

If Cooper didn't pioneer the twq dog technique, then I'm not sure who did because none of the K9 experts that I have spoken to about the approach have ever heard of anyone else using a two dog / one handler system for scent detection K9s that were searching for pests (or drugs, bombs, or arson for that matter) in the field. I don't know of any law enforcement or military organization in the world that utilizes a second dog with the same handler to verify the primary K9s work on a routine basis.

I wish you and Rick had walked across the room and spoke to me during the break & I would have clarified my statement or apologized for being inaccurate. I strive to be accurate in all of my comments.

Here is a description in Cooper's own words. I have quoted the entire paragraph to give the context of the comment, but have highlighted the sentence in question in boldface.

There have also been comments on the bedbugger site about Cooper Pest Solutions returning a bed bug dog. We spent a number of months evaluating a bed bug sniffing dog and did in fact return it once our evaluation was complete. Our assessment of the inspection technique is that we believe it can be a highly effective method if the dog has been trained correctly and is handled correctly. In addition, we also believe that a two dog system for verification purposes is also necessary to better address the subject of false alerts. I recently had a discussion with a dog trainer in Florida who made the point that in order to truly address the false alert issue you need to use two different handlers in addition to two different dogs which I would fully concur with. The question becomes how much assurance do you want in your results and how much are you willing to pay for the increased level of assurance? Suffice it so say, if my organization chooses to offer bed bug dog detection services it will be with a two dog system. I have the uptmost confidence in the trainer that we worked with (J&K Canine Academy) and would work with them again in the future should we decide to move forward with canine scent detection for bed bugs.

I will send a PM with my cell number. Give me a call if you wish any further clarification.
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 17 2009 22:44:47
#

Login to Send PM

Jessip

Here is a link for Rick's article about Four Legged Bed Bug Detectives
http://pct.texterity.com/pct/200708/

Here is a link to the full thread that contains the quote from Rick Cooper that I cited
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/bed-bug-sniffing-dog-1#post-7556
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 18 2009 11:45:17
#

Login to Send PM

Jessip

I sence your lack of confidence to debate me on this issue. Once you mention me by name in your post you automatically open the door for me to respond. Could your interest in the k9 subject matter be because it is financial? Do you have working dogs that you claim detects, live bed bugs and eggs? Do you train dogs? Are you a member of the NESDCA? These are legitimate questions that I believe you owe the readers an answer to. Doug Summers and I, have exposed are real identities.

We are professionals in the area of K9 scent detection dogs. Our credentials and longevity speak for themselves. We have put our reputations on the line responding to these threads with our real identities. I ask that you do the same.

Doug and I don't agree all the time but we still respect one another. Please let me afford you the same respect.

Having said that, I have to say Doug, I could not have said it better. I know of no one-handler two dog systems.

Keep in mind, Rick Cooper gave back the dog. What does that tell you? It tells me that he was not confident in the dog or, the training and possibly his own confidence in making the dog work effectively. I think Rick will be the first one to tell you that he is not an expert in the area of K9 behavior. He is however, a premier entomologist and expert with bed bugs.

Maybe we will never know. But the assumptions are reasonable.

Kind regards,

Gary Broberg
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 18 2009 14:09:30
#

Login to Send PM

There was some discussion about this issue about one year ago on a different thread. I have quoted large sections with the statements of interest in boldface

I posed a couple of questions about use of two dogs for bed bug inspections & false alerts.

DougSummersMS - 1 year ago »
Pepe...
Why don't we just have an intelligent scientific dialogue about the merits of using a two dog approach for the confirmation of the presence of viable bed bugs & eggs?
What conclusions should be drawn if one dog repeatedly alerts in the exact same location that is repeatedly cleared by the second K9?
If false positives are not a problem, then why do you recommend the use of a second K9 to confirm the first K9s work?

Here in Pepe's own words are his explanations for the use of a two dog system

Pepe Peruyero - 1 year ago »
[b]J & K Canine Academy Inc. promotes the use of two dogs for the consumer, who is expecting a search on the scheduled date and time, and company who is scheduling searches for specific dates and times. All dog trainers know that dogs have days they don't work due to illness etc. and dog owners know there are days their dogs just don't act the same. There is no difference between the two, the dog is not at their best. Having a second dog confirm an alert is an option but it's the company's choice how they set up their protocol and not due to false positive rates. As a side note we are conducting research that involves this method to reveal whether it is effective or not. Most companies purchase the number of dogs needed in relation to the size of their business, searches they conduct, and to ensure those jobs are completed on time and the day/s scheduled [/b] e

The discussion that I have quoted can be found here
http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/bring-a-bb-dog-to-dc-md-va?quote=12499#postform

Compare Pepe's comments to Coopers comments on this blog that were referenced previously in addition to the statements that Rick made in his PCT article.
http://pct.texterity.com/pct/200708/

RichardCooper - 1 year ago » .... Our assessment of the inspection technique is that we believe it can be a highly effective method if the dog has been trained correctly and is handled correctly. In addition, we also believe that a two dog system for verification purposes is also necessary to better address the subject of false alerts. I recently had a discussion with a dog trainer in Florida who made the point that in order to truly address the false alert issue you need to use two different handlers in addition to two different dogs which I would fully concur with. The question becomes how much assurance do you want in your results and how much are you willing to pay for the increased level of assurance?.... Suffice it so say, if my organization chooses to offer bed bug dog detection services it will be with a two dog system....
Richard Cooper

Read some of the hundreds of comments that I have made on this blog about these issues.... then decide for yourself who is being transparent & who is being disingenuous with consumers on issues like false alerts or the reason that Cooper used a two dog system.
btaggart

junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Tue Apr 21 2009 13:44:12
#

Login to Send PM

Hello all

My name is Brian Taggart. I will not post my company as i am not here to solict buisness. I truely dont believe thats what the original intention of this site was for. However i've been following all these arguments with the dogs very closely. I am a member of NESDCA and our company has a certified dog. I have seeen my dog work and help people solve their bed bug problems. I think dogs are a very effective tool in this war on bed bugs. So What I propose is that all dog trainers and handlers get together and lets get some outside research done using dogs from multiple trainers in one experiment at a university level. All dog handlers who have seen bed bug dogs work know their value. Its time we all stop fighting and work together to show the world how useful these great animals can be.

Brian Taggart
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 9:43:29
#

Login to Send PM

Brian,

This is a forum. What one perceives as fighting, is perceived by others as good healthy debate.

I have had people flinging all kinds of aspirsions at my claims. It is part of the process.

I do not take offence to it. It does not raise my blood pressure. It is good health debate!

The people who want the discussions of bed bug dogs eliminated are those who are financially effected by it in a negative way.

If people don't like the content of the posts, they can turn the channel. What I encourage you to do is join in the discussion,providing your experiences and knowledge. It would probbly add to your credibility if you inform the readers of your background first.

Finally, I am all for good research. as long as it is done within the parameters of social and scientific research framework. Where,precautions are made to prevent contamination of the outcome that,could serve to benefit a particular group.

Kind regards,

Gary Broberg
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 9:47:36
#

Login to Send PM

Brian
Welcome to the forum.

To make the research project you are proposing successful... You will need to find K9 experts that that the handlers can trust to be unbiased, you will need to identify some interesting research questions and the difficult part is that you will need some serious funding for the researchers.

If we are going to go beyond the simple infomercial type of research with researchers scoring training exercises, then we need serious funds to look at questions like... How does a K9 discriminate between a live bed bug & a dead bed bug? or ... How long does a bed bug need to be dead before it smells like a corpse to a dog?

There are many important research questions, but we would need several million dollars to hire a school like Auburn University to perform the work.

Field research is more affordable. I spoke to a couple of researchers at the EPA conference about performing some field studies. A good study comparing the efficacy of human inspectors against K9 teams would be an example of an interesting applied research study.

I would also like to encourage researchers to utilize K9 teams to gather epidemiological data in the field. Using dogs to track down bed bug migration through public transmission in the urban environment & gathering samples for DNA analysis from the field could help answer some important questions about the prevalence of infestations in cities.
btaggart

junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 11:43:40
#

Login to Send PM

Doug/gary,

I know that it is expensive however i strongly believe that we can get federal or state funding to aid in this research. I believe any major university with an accredited entomolgy staff currently studying bed bugs would be fine with me. The only parameters im interested in is proving that canines are an effective tool. I am not a sciencetist so i would not presume to tell a university entomologist how to run a study. All i want to do is prove to the world what these dogs can do. So again if i were to get a university to preform these studies would you guys join in the study.

Brian Taggart
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 13:27:25
#

Login to Send PM

I concur with Doug. Auburn University is the best choice for the research.

Gary Broberg
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 14:12:27
#

Login to Send PM

Brian

We need canine scent detection specialists, not entomologists to investigate the dogs ability. That is one of the problems with the existing research... it was performed by an entomology student

Margie already demonstrated that K9s can find bed bugs in her study.

Margie's study is a starting point, but demonstrating that a dog can successfully locate bed bugs is not a major advance in science.

Commission a group of accredited K9 experts to study how a K9 can discriminate between live & dead bed bugs... then you will produce some exciting science that has a direct application.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Wed Apr 22 2009 22:26:41
#

Login to Send PM

Well said, Doug.

Gary Broberg
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 1:31:57
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 15 hours ago »
The people who want the discussions of bed bug dogs eliminated are those who are financially effected by it in a negative way.

Gary, could you please show us where on this site anyone has asked for the discussions of bed bug dogs to be eliminated?

Thanks.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 11:37:26
#

Login to Send PM

Nobugs, are you looking for an argument? What, you couldn't sleep? Because you posed the above argumentative question at 2:00 a.m. I am guessing you are under the age of 18 because of the tenor of your question and your childish retorts to my suggestions on the application of visqueen; as insane

Moreover, your distorted suggestion that I was favoring the use of raid.

Never have I, ever suggested the use raid or any other chemical on this site.

Child, were are you getting these things from?

It appears you have lost all objectivity, which is leading to your loss of credibility. And that is, unfortunate.

Kind regards, who ever you are.

Gary Broberg
Adele

senior member
Joined: May '08
Posts: 665
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 12:17:54
#

Login to Send PM

OMG Gary!!! I am up at 2am as well and see nobugs on here all the time - and I can absolutely assure you that I am over 18 - but my sleep patterns are taking a long time to go back to normal

but really Gary your comments are getting beyond ridiculous

Can you just state your case and make your points without being accusatory and insulting?

if you were to step back and objectively read what you wrote above it honestly makes you sound like a nutjob!!!!

I know you must not be that crazy as you run a business and need to some sense of sanity in order to do that

can't you let your sanity and reasonable judgement show through when you post your opinions?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion for sure - and lord knows I've voiced mine aggressively here in particular about my disdain for PCO's - but I try to do so in a calm and rational way

just try to be respectful
paulaw0919

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,159
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 12:58:30
#

Login to Send PM

Remember, this is coming from an "expert" that used to have a FLEA on the front page of his bed bug detection website. Oh, and I have a copy of it as well.

Imho, he's a bug within himself. Total "@ss."
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 13:47:02
#

Login to Send PM

Adele, I know you to be a fair minded and objective individual. Nobugs labels me as insane and implies that I am in favor of using raid on bed bugs. And you don't feel that I should have responded to that malice, and fallacious non-sense. Really! Read back 15 posts Please, tell me how you think I should have responded.

Nobugs can call and label me anything that he/she wants behind a cloak of anonymity. That is cowardly. You know who I am and where I am at.

Finally, I harbor no animosity towards any person that I have communicated with on this site or, who has communicated with me. (Please note); I always end my posts with "Kind regards".
which, I truly mean.

Kind regards,

Gary Broberg
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 14:20:53
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 2 hours ago »
... your childish retorts to my suggestions on the application of visqueen; as insane
Moreover, your distorted suggestion that I was favoring the use of raid.
Never have I, ever suggested the use raid or any other chemical on this site.
Child, were are you getting these things from?

It appears you have lost all objectivity, which is leading to your loss of credibility. And that is, unfortunate.

Kind regards, who ever you are.

Gary Broburg,

I run an anonymous website. I am often online at 2 am because I have a job and other responsibilities which mean this is often the only time I can maintain the site.

If you have a problem with the fact that I do not provide my real name, go elsewhere. If I was offering myself as a pest control operator or bed bug dog service provider, I most certainly would use my real name and provide information on what would need to be a licensed business.

You most certainly endorsed the methods of the author of the link you supplied above as a model for people wishing to get rid of bed bugs: http://thebedbugwar.blogspot.com/

Read that site again. The author isolated his bed AND applied copious amounts of RAID. You most certainly seemed to be enthusiastic about his methods.

I link to the post YOU recommended, because I am standing behind my assertions.

Whereas you habitually make claims such as the following, and DO NOT back them up with links to the evidence:

hatesbedbugs - 15 hours ago »
The people who want the discussions of bed bug dogs eliminated are those who are financially effected by it in a negative way.

Again, show us what the heck you are referring to.

Signing your posts "kind regards" does not mean you are being kind.

I run the site and you routinely insult me. You make assertions you do not back up. Anyone who does read through the thread above will see whose assertions are correct, and whose are not.

I am very fair-minded. I run the site as a space for open discussion, but open discussion requires one to BACK UP one's assertions and to provide information on them. You ought to do that. And be careful what you recommend.

I also am known for being very tolerant of different points of view, even when they come from people who routinely insult me. But I will remind you once again, your presence here is a courtesy. Be civil to everyone or go away.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 15:01:07
#

Login to Send PM

Nobugs

Never, did I endorse the use of raid. I referred to the isolation techniques only! Please pull up the statement of where, I endorsed the use of raid . I never even used the word endorsed and I never mentioned raid. Furthermore, you know that, my discussion of isolation techniques had nothing to do with the application of chemicals. What you have done is, basically lied.

The readers here can go back 24 posts and read the exact content of my post on, isolation techniques that, you are referring to. I believe they will not draw your conclusion. The readers of this form are not stupid.

You have lost all credibility!

Have a nice day.

Gary Broberg
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 15:22:35
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 16 minutes ago »
Nobugs
Never, did I endorse the use of raid. I referred to the isolation techniques only! Please pull up the statement of where, I endorsed the use of raid . I never even used the word endorsed and I never mentioned raid. Furthermore, you know that, my discussion of isolation techniques had nothing to do with the application of chemicals.

Gary, you said,

"Isolation techniques apparently worked well for this person."

I pointed out, in fact, this person also used RAID. There is no evidence that "Isolation techniques apparently worked well for this person" because he did not only use isolation techniques.

Period.

Your idea that isolation techniques ALONE will cause bed bugs to leave a home are unfounded. Provide proof of this or be quiet.

I am glad that you did not endorse RAID, but your claim that the techniques described on that website "worked well" are inaccurate, since he also applied RAID.

I will continue to point out problems with your claims to readers who I concur are most intelligent, but I am through addressing you directly.

Be civil, or else.
hatesbedbugs

Banned
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 88
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 15:38:17
#

Login to Send PM

Thank you Nobugs , for retracting your incorrect accusation that, I endorsed RAID.

Have a wonderful day.

Gary
wirehead

member
Joined: Aug '08
Posts: 139
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 16:43:31
#

Login to Send PM

Nobugs, you have the patience of a saint! I would've banned him ages ago.
paulaw0919

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,159
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 17:07:29
#

Login to Send PM

Anybody have a can of Raid around? Heck, the heel of a shoe will do....
btaggart

junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 17:16:37
#

Login to Send PM

nobugs/paula/everyone else,

Im sorry to have started an uprise im was just trying to get reasearch done i will no longer post here as i feel all i did was start an argument and that was definitley not my intent. I will leave my account open so i can recieve pms. again to the good people of this site who have suffered I apologize again it was not my intention to start an uproar.

Brian Taggart
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 18:34:37
#

Login to Send PM

hatesbedbugs - 2 hours ago »
Thank you Nobugs , for retracting your incorrect accusation that, I endorsed RAID.

It's sad that you cannot admit that you were wrong -- that the author of that website did not eliminate bed bugs from his home by isolating his bed.
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 18:37:20
#

Login to Send PM

btaggart - 1 hour ago »
nobugs/paula/everyone else,
Im sorry to have started an uprise im was just trying to get reasearch done i will no longer post here as i feel all i did was start an argument and that was definitley not my intent. I will leave my account open so i can recieve pms. again to the good people of this site who have suffered I apologize again it was not my intention to start an uproar.
Brian Taggart

Brian Taggart,

Honestly, I think you're getting the wrong idea.
I do not see anyone in conflict with you.

The poster known as hatesbedbugs has a history of stirring up drama. It's best to ignore him. (However, as I said, when he states inaccurate information, or does not back up his grandiose claims, one must question him.)

btaggart, you are most welcome to participate!
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 21:16:55
#

Login to Send PM

Brian

I don't feel you have started any conflict or wrote anything to upset anyone.

Try posting on some other threads... this one had plenty of conflict going on before you posted any comments. The K9 threads have a tendency to become emotionally charged debates.

There are lots of opportunities to provide help to people dealing with infestations & learn about advances in science.

Personally, I like to see more K9 handlers participating on the site & would like to invite you to stick around make some friends. There are some wonderful folks here.

Be sure to place a title on your PMs or they cannot be opened. Try sending your message again, but write something in the title box this time.

I would be glad to talk with you about research & the K9 community.

If I understand your goal... you might want try organizing a competition for handlers to demonstrate their skills for the public. Call it the Super Bowl of Bed Bug K9s.

Best Regards,
Doug
KillerQueen

oldtimer
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 2,553
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 21:45:14
#

Login to Send PM

I have avoided posting my thoughts in this thread because it’s just ridiculous and the claims along with the back and forth, change in direction, etc., is annoying.

The problem is people are here for help … And this thread provides nothing! The K9 debate will never end and in fact will always leave most with false hope.

Time and time again I’m called out to do inspections or treatments after K9’s alert to a “bed bug infestation”

The fact is that K9’s I have followed are wrong .. more than they are right! Weather they come from this academy or that one .. almost means nothing. The dog is wrecked because of the handler and can’t be trusted because of the handler. Most handlers don’t confirm the findings of the dog … it’s oh so hard to find them! NONSENSE!!!!

If you can’t find a bed bug as a K9 handler, you should be serving me ice cream at Friendly’s!
If a human is doing an inspection for 10 or 15 minutes .. he should pump my gas!
And you K9 handlers or trainers .. should stick to what you know .. Dogs.

Many of you are answering questions about pesticides and isolation and you probably shouldn’t. The techniques with regard to isolation in this thread are ridiculous. And all this thread is doing is pissing people off, giving false hope, or selling a bunch of crap.

The dog is a tool and only a tool. If you can’t confirm the dog … you accomplished nothing! The same way if I don’t show up with my flashlight, staple gun, screw drivers, needle nose pliers, lighted inspection mirror, a will, a want, an hour or two of time to confirm my client’s suspicions, I fail as well. That is why most imposters miss finding bed bug harborages while inspecting.

As for government funding for bed bug research … I’m going broke bailing out the rest of the county .. I’m not paying for K9 research so academy’s can make money selling more dogs. Only to be destroyed by handlers with 0 will to truly get to the bottom of things. Will the government pay for my flashlight? Last I checked I have never been wrong doing an inspection for anyone who thought they may have bed bugs. One person here thought so .. hired somebody else … 2 weeks later said I was right .. they are not here … and never were. I can’t post the PM if anyone would like to see it.

The fact is NOT MANY K9 TEAMS OUT THERE ARE WORTH THE MONEY! And the academy’s need to slow down with flooding the industry .. or at least in NY. You are wrecking your reputations as well with all the false alerts from poor handlers. I encourage anyone if you do need to use a K9 .. use an independent team .. Not a dog that is owned by a pest control company! If I had the time to dedicate the attention the dog needs to remain effective, I would own one. I can’t offer the time .. And there for, will not invest in a K9.

It’s a shame people can’t hire a pest control company to conduct visual inspections with proper results. I guess that is why I don’t do free inspections. I can’t give up 4 hours of my time with the inspection and travel for free. But 10 minutes …. To sell a job, well sure! But I have a heart ….
So called Bed Bug experts who post on this site .. have missed infestations … 3 people including the owner with a 4 month old infestation … missed it. I was called in .. and found bed bug evidence in .. no bullshit! 3 minutes.

Everyone is a self proclaimed expert with bed bugs today .. How else is anyone going to make money is this shit economy? I think I’m good at killing bed bugs .. and I don’t even like labeling myself a bed bug specialist.

So if you need or want a K9 .. Ask for recommendations from people who have used them and have confirmed a bed bug infestation. Your life could be turned upside down .. and you will go through a great deal of expense simply because the puppy was hungry that day .. And the handler did not have a clue how to locate the bug in the 2 square foot area Fido alerted to.

The bickering, the sales, the ridiculous advice, and the name calling needs to end … YOU are not helping anyone & I would close the thread if I owned the site … And Nobugs .. you are way to kind … I would also ban people here for being nasty! You should of banned me for some of our private PM arguments not so long ago! Stop being so nice!!!!!
KillerQueen

oldtimer
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 2,553
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Thu Apr 23 2009 21:57:06
#

Login to Send PM

I should have also said... my first stop tomorrow is in Brooklyn... for yet another person with another K9 alert without visual confirmation that they paid 300.00 for. I was called to do the treatment... and I will not without a bug! Now I have to charge her money for the truth, and then reduce 10% off my cost of treatment... Because enough is enough!
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 24 2009 0:19:36
#

Login to Send PM

Killer Queen

Could you be more specific about exactly which teams that you are referring to in your comments?

When you make broad comments about K9s... you do a serious disservice to the handlers that perform well. It also confuses the public when you refer to nameless companies and make such negative claims.

While certain handlers are known for performing sloppy work... there are many other teams that follow the proper protocols & produce good results.

As for my research ideas... I really wouldn't lose any sleep over your tax dollars being used to fund bed bug research... It is highly unlikely that such a project will ever be funded by the government or anybody else.... I was just trying to give an example of an interesting applied research question that is currently not well understood by science.

I do my best to provide accurate information about the use of K9 inspection in a professional manner. Feel free to give me a call if you wish to discuss anything that I have posted that you find objectionable.
spideyjg

oldtimer
Joined: Jul '08
Posts: 3,201
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 24 2009 2:10:31
#

Login to Send PM

Brian,

You did nothing wrong here. K9 threads tend to get these debates going on and tend to degenerate as you saw.

Nothing is 100% so any K9 alert has to be confirmed by finding the alert trigger. Stories of handlers not doing this is appaling.

Jim
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri Apr 24 2009 2:20:20
#

Login to Send PM

All bed bug teams are not the same, and I agree with Doug that it's important to be specific. I believe they can be effective, but have heard they aren't all.

Some forum users have used multiple bed bug sniffing dog teams over and over and had different results from each team they hired.

In a few instances, people have praised a team on the forums and then later complained privately to me about their results being incorrect. I can't really pass on such stories, because coming from me, it's hearsay.

It is a good thing if people can tell these stories because it helps others decide whether to hire a team or not. But people are often hesitant to do so, for whatever reason.
Nobugsonme

your host
Joined: Mar '07
Posts: 13,743
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 25 2009 0:50:14
#

Login to Send PM

Seems nice and quiet now.
KillerQueen

oldtimer
Joined: Mar '08
Posts: 2,553
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 25 2009 9:07:32
#

Login to Send PM

It looks like things may be nice nice again =)
I was posting this last night until I found the thread closed. Now open, I'll post it.

Doug, don’t take what I say personal. I’ll tell you that if I’m asked for a recommendation for a K9, I recommend a handler who uses a dog from your academy. I will use a handler who will do every bit of work to confirm the findings of the dog. It would not matter to me where the dog comes from. In the end it’s the human who has to see the bug.

The problem I have is too many K9’s are in the market & the handlers who are not doing honest inspections. People are paying hundreds of dollars and taking on treatments based on the K9’s “hit” without finding or even searching for evidence. If the K9 hits on the box spring .. you need to spend 20 minutes searching inside the box spring to confirm. You can’t do that when you are in and out in 5 or 10 minutes.

Example: The client I mentioned above today was set to pay me … $1,750. for treatments & was quoted $1,800. from the company that did the initial K9 inspection. I was there for 2 hours today and found nothing after the best visual inspection I could do. I left her convinced she didn’t have bed bugs, and also pissed that she was taken by this team. This does not help the K9’s out there that are on the money.

When somebody is getting bites daily for weeks .. there should be evidence. This person was taken for a ride, had her home bagged up on the advice of the other company and spent God knows what for dry cleaning. This is what I have a problem with. Sure I would love for my company to make the money for treatment .. but I have to know what I’m fighting!

I will always caution anyone looking for a K9 inspection. I think the dogs are great right out of the gate, and I applaud the training you do...But these handlers are wrecking the industry that I had hoped would be a great tool for this insect. I trust the team I recommend but will not trust other teams out there. I will not do a treatment if these teams don’t confirm the dog.

For your industry … I would be more selective and I would limit the amount of dogs you sell, that way, you are not out of the bed bug business in a few years. I know you have no control over the handlers once they leave but maybe something should be done to limit the amount .. so that those who are doing honest inspections have a future and will not have to fight the reputation that others are giving them …
buggela

junior member
Joined: Dec '08
Posts: 36
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sat Apr 25 2009 12:54:02
#

Login to Send PM

I have had several visits by BBdogs and always getting hits. Sometimes the trainer tries to find the bug and usually succeeds. This time we chose not to look as we didn't want to disturb the bugs. Just wrapped up the furniture and got rid of it. Also, I have had several PC's tell me that I have no BB's followed by a dog inspection only to find there are BBS. (and the trainer has found the bugs) I admit that now after all these months I have complete faith in the dog handler and don't feel the need for him to find the bug anymore. I've used every treatment except vikane to get rid of these things and have had no luck. KillerQueen, many of us are not lucky enough to live in NY and just have to believe the tell tale signs of bites and dog hits even when we don't actually see the bugs. If you're willing to come to Boston, I'll pay for it.
btaggart

junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Sun Apr 26 2009 15:48:37
#

Login to Send PM

doug,

i love your idea of a bed bug dog superbowl, so im trying to gather as many dog teams as i can. you say you supply the most amount of bed bug dog teams so can you post a list somewhere with your teams. You told me that rick coopers endorsement of pepes dogs was a paid endorsement. I didnt know that thank you for the heads up. with that in mind id really like to get this going so please if you can post a list of your dogs. Sorry i havent gotten back to you yet its been a crazy week and here it is sunday so i didnt want to call you on your day off so i posted here so you can respond anytime. Gary i hope you will get involved as well with your teams.

Brian Taggart
btaggart

junior member
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 82
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri May 1 2009 9:10:58
#

Login to Send PM

Doug,

Are you still interested in this superbowl for bed bugs? Ive been trying to find a list of your teams and cant find it anywhere on the web. can ou direct me to a link? I really hope you get behind this superbowl idea since it was your idea. i mentioned it to a couple of teams i know and they said they would be very interested.

Brian Taggart
DougSummersMS

oldtimer
Joined: May '07
Posts: 1,969
offline

Posted 4 years ago
Fri May 1 2009 9:34:26
#

Login to Send PM

Brian

Send me a PM.

I was unable to open your last PM because it didn't have a title.

Thanks

RSS feed for this topic

Topic Closed

This topic has been closed to new replies.

160,609 posts in 24,653 topics over 76 months by 10,429 of 17,342 members. Latest: lessthan, bum4evr, rodneymacdonald

Site Meter

vBulletin counter