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Cheap, Fast Kill Idea: Mini-Electric Fence

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  1. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Jul 8 2014 20:08:58
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    This is also part of the topic at http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/call-to-world-create-new-amp-better-solutions

    Suggestion: Mini-electric fence that's battery-operated with on/off switch which goes around the legs of furniture you recline on. When any part of a bed bug's body (leg, abdomen, mouth, etc) touches the mini-electric fence, they die instantly.

    Wanted result: Inexpensive, simple, fast extermination method for bed bugs which requires no insecticides and no effort on the part of the homeowner

    Some research for group:
    1. Minimum voltage required to kill a bed bug as soon as any part of its body touches the mini-electric fence
    1a. A qualified entomologist and/or biomedical expert knows

    2. Safety requirements for this mini-electric fence. Some potential requirements:
    - insulating sheet under furniture which has mini-electric fence on legs of furniture,
    - insulating sheet between your body and the furniture,
    - insulation directly between the mini-electric fence and furniture legs (could be as simple as a sheet of pretty colored rubber, such as a rubberized exercise mat)
    - glass container around mini-electric fence to prevent bed bugs that spark due to electrocution from contacting any flammable material and catching that material on fire
    2a. A licensed professional electrical engineer knows

    3. Find out what official needs to approve this method to kill bed bugs, if any official does need to approve it. It may differ from city to city.

    4. Group to come up with any other research that'd be helpful

    Potential implementation methods:
    1. Isolate furniture - move furniture at least one foot away from walls
    2. Put masking tape on ceiling where ceiling meets walls in all rooms. Put smooth plastic shipping tape over masking tape. This makes it impossible for bed bugs to climb up a wall, across ceiling and drop on to you - their legs cannot cling on to slippery plastic which is upside down. The masking tape under the plastic tape is to prevent damage to your paint or wallpaper.
    3. Install safety requirements - might be insulating sheets, insulation between mini-electric fence and furniture legs, and glass container around mini-electric fence
    4. Activate and de-activate the mini-electric fence as you wish

    Are there any electricians, electrical engineers, entomologists, and biomedical experts in the group? Any know of some whom can chime in? Anyone want to help with the research to potentially find the inexpensive, simple, fast solution anyone with a bed bug infestation deserves?

  2. P Bello

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Tue Jul 8 2014 22:37:54
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    Hmmm . . .

    I can see it now on the Shark Tank TV show; The Bed Bug Zapper.

    We could roll out this steel mesh grid across an entire bedroom.

    Then, once we're safely in our beds, we press a button and the entire floor, and what the heck, the walls & ceiling too, become an electrified zone of death to bed bugs.

    It's like Star Wars for bed bugs, no?

    Suitable capacitors can be used to sufficiently multiply the voltage to really fry these bastards.

    On the down side might be your pet cat and/or waking up in the middle of the night to get a drink of water and such.

    But zapping bed bugs as they attempt to get us sounds both vengeful and cool all at the same time.

    pjb

  3. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:29:41
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    outsmart,

    Thanks for registering for the forums and moving your discussion here from the blog comments.

    I saw the video you posted of bed bugs being zapped by the entomologist:

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Video Plugin

    Note that it made a very loud noise and sparked.

    Even if the solution were effective, and that's a big "if", I am not sure it would be practical for this reason.

    I started and run the site but am "not an expert."
  4. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:32:15
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    Sounds good, P Bello, as long as it could be done safely. Yesterday, I spoke with an electrical engineer, whom cautioned that freshly electrocuted bed bugs flying through the air or falling off the electric fence could catch flammable materials on fire. So a safety feature would need to be present to prevent that, as well as frying one's self.

    I spoke with a Nobel prize nominee physicist the day before yesterday. He said it sounds like a good idea that I have, and would likely serve its intended purposes, and to go speak with an electrical engineer about that. The electrical engineer noted he would first need to know:
    1. minimum voltage to kill bed bug on contact via electric fence
    2. if dust such as diatomaceous earth on their legs and/or body would insulate them from electrocution
    3. ensure they aren't smart enough to pile a dead bed bug on to the electric fence and use that as a bridge (could just check electric fence daily to make sure no dead bed bug is impaled on it though). Or so hungry that they would send a chump bug to grab the fence and let the others walk over him as a bridge. That seems unlikely, but hey, I'm not an expert about their behavior, so worth checking into.

  5. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:48:49
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    Thanks nobugsonme. Why would a loud noise and spark be impractical to get rid of bed bugs? That's certainly A LOT less impractical than doings loads of laundry, vacuuming a lot, spraying only partially useful insecticides, and putting down DE.

    And as far as the safety issue of the spark causing a fire - that can be overcome. An electric fence certainly seems the symptoms of having bed bugs is far worse and impractical than being bugged out by an occasional zap and contained spark... No?

  6. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:49:42
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    I found someone's been working on it. http://bedbugger.com/forum/topic/electric-bedbug-zapper

  7. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:51:41
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    Nobugsonme - are you an exterminator making flush on the slow and expensive process people pay for when they hire a PCO, so are being a naysayer to a new(er) idea simply because it makes an occasional loud noise, plus a spark which would be harmless due to containment...?

  8. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:54:12
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    And please note, nobugsonme, unless you're more educated on electricity than a nobel prize nominee who is a physicist with over 25 years experience, and more educated on electricity than the professionally licensed electrical engineer I spoke with today, you're "big if" is without merit. They already both said it's a doable idea, as long as the safety features could be mitigated and a high enough voltage used.

  9. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 3:59:00
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    outsmartbb - 5 minutes ago  » 
    Nobugsonme - are you an exterminator making flush on the slow and expensive process people pay for when they hire a PCO, so are being a naysayer to a new(er) idea simply because it makes an occasional loud noise, plus a spark which would be harmless due to containment...?

    No, I'm not an exterminator, outsmartbb.

    I started the site because I had bed bugs (have you, by the way?)

    I thought you wanted to have an open discussion. I simply noted one possible drawback to your plan. Having a loud noise go off and sparks fly next to my bed while I'm sleeping would be problematic. I acknowledge others may not agree.

    Saying something is a "big if" doesn't make me a naysayer. My "big if" relates not to the do-ability of this in electronic terms (of which I have no knowledge and claimed none) but in terms of bed bug behavior.

    That's all the input I have on this topic.

    On an administrative note, please do not revive old threads by linking in them to this new one. It just bumps up a lot of dead discussions which have not been added to for years. Anyone currently active on the site will see this thread.

  10. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 5:33:23
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    Ah, ok nobugsonme. I thought your "big if" commentary was in relation to the electrical components not being able to work. And, like I said, I've already spoken with a nobel prize nominee physicist and professionally licensed electrical engineer, who both agreed the idea is doable and the only precaution they gave was to make sure to contain the sparks to avoid causing a fire, and to insulate one's self from the electrocution factor.

    Now I get your "big if" was in relation to sound and light. Wear wax earplugs and put a sleep eye mask on for a few days. That takes care of your "big if" and makes it a tiny sacrifice to pay to avoid the kind of suffering common to bed bug infestation (lots of elbow grease, loss of sleep, social isolation, depression, anxiety, etc) no one should go through.

    In a more productive note - now that you've shared some easily overcome drawbacks to a popping sound and spark of light you're very unlikely to see while on top of a bed, what ideas to you have to make this work?

    What's the minimum voltage to shock a bed bug to death? What type of material is best to use to insulate one's self? Rubber mat, maybe? The product that's in prototype by another user appears to use a mesh of wires, as opposed to a fence type of structure with less wiring. Which do you think would suffice? His also is attached to an electrical outlet, which could result in bed bugs climbing down from the bed, along the wiring and into the electrical sockets/walls. Likely better to have it battery operated, like the bug zapping rackets, right?

    Please, let's move this forward rather than getting all stuck in the mud whining about a tiny pop sound earplugs would easily mask, and a tiny spark of light your eyelids closed would block out considering it'd be coming from out of sight under your bed, not in front of your face.

  11. P Bello

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 7:32:28
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    Dear outsmart,

    Overall, this is an interesting idea. NOT a new idea, but interesting nonetheless.

    There are however, several significant challenges to this becoming a commercially available product and there are a number of issues which fall under the "safety headline".

    Airborne insect body part fragments are a huge concern for the indoor urban environment. Miniscule fragments may become and remain airborne for extending periods of time resulting in the possible aspiration or inhalation by residents. This factor is already studied and well known regarding cockroaches and the effect on childhood asthma in urban environs. So, there's that . . .

    Now, if this thing were to get "off the ground" it would need to sufficiently address this one issue for sure.

    Additionally, we'd also have to get over the: "Hey Johnny, tell me if this hurts" type thing too cause kids do the darndest things, don't they ! And, anyone of us who grew up out "in the country" and tested the "don't pee on the electric fence" warning can adequately attest to that as well.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea but there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

    And, by the way, let's be a tad kinder to Nobugs. After all, she's your host here and has the ability to delete everything . . . just sayin . . .

    pjb

  12. loubugs

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 8:02:46
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    Amen, Paul. Insect fragments volatilized isn't good in the food prep area. And amen for Nobugs as well.

    Professional entomologist/arachnologist. I consult on all matters dealing with insects and arachnids, including those of natural history and biology to pest management and forensic entomology investigations.
  13. BigDummy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 8:15:27
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    A new twist on the isolation idea. I think this already exists without the electrical components in the form of Climb Ups.
    Can it reduce a population, it certainly could; but will it kill the entire infestation, very doubtful.
    Focusing on only one point of entry is leaving too much to chance.

    HVAC/Locksmith/Bed Bug Control for a non-profit homeless shelter and long term veteran housing.
  14. P Bello

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 8:40:11
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    Halleluiah brother can we get an Amen . . .

    hahaha

  15. BigDummy

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 11:49:37
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    outsmartbb - 15 hours ago  » 
    Wanted result: Inexpensive, simple, fast extermination method for bed bugs which requires no insecticides and no effort on the part of the homeowner

    If the electric fence doesn't work out there's always the booming diet pill market to look into.

  16. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 13:33:38
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    Outsmart,
    My "big if" wasn't related to sound and light (or shall I say "fire") but to the bed bug end if things, as clearly noted above:

    "Saying something is a "big if" doesn't make me a naysayer. My "big if" relates not to the do-ability of this in electronic terms (of which I have no knowledge and claimed none) but in terms of bed bug behavior."

  17. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 13:34:08
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    loubugs - 5 hours ago  » 
    Amen, Paul. Insect fragments volatilized isn't good in the food prep area. And amen for Nobugs as well.

    Can I get a witness!?!

  18. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 13:39:33
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    P Bello - 6 hours ago  » 

    Airborne insect body part fragments

    Just that phrase alone is going to be haunting me all day.

  19. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 15:12:49
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    Hahaha - I'll take that ANY DAY versus them breathing in my air to find me and take my blood. Bring on the airborne insect fragments (this is what a vacuum cleaner is for - post-war cleanup... sending the bodies to the morgue, or hiding them in the trunk... whatever your preference).

  20. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 15:42:32
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    More progress: this looks like an easy product to modify to zap bed bugs as they climb up a bed leg. Looks like would just need to uptick the voltage, and put non-flammable encasement around it to prevent sparking bed bugs that just got fried from catching something on fire.

    http://www.electricfencingsolutions.co.uk/SnailAway/

    Just needs function to make interior ceiling of encasement flat and make it impossible for bed bugs to climb on outside of encasement, and circumvent the electric fence.

  21. Nobugsonme

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 16:09:17
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    Read Paul's comments again:

    Airborne insect body part fragments are a huge concern for the indoor urban environment. Miniscule fragments may become and remain airborne for extending periods of time resulting in the possible aspiration or inhalation by residents. This factor is already studied and well known regarding cockroaches and the effect on childhood asthma in urban environs.

    If you really want to create a solution which will help other people, you have to take this seriously.

    If you just want to rig up something for yourself, that's another story.

  22. loubugs

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 18:24:34
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    This makes it impossible for bed bugs to climb up a wall, across ceiling and drop on to you - their legs cannot cling on to slippery plastic which is upside down. The masking tape under the plastic tape is to prevent damage to your paint or wallpaper.

    Outsmartbb: are you sure of bed bugs not being able to cling to what appears to be slippery surfaces?

  23. P Bello

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Wed Jul 9 2014 20:44:11
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    You wouldn't "take that any day" knowing that these body fragments can also be coated with numerous bacteria and other pathogens.

    I prefer my indoor air clean, pathogen free and I'm a tad adverse to having to be respiring in some sort of DNA Soup.

    There's a reason that local health & sanitary codes require that "bug zapper' type units are no longer installed in food prep areas where fragments of exploding critters can contaminate prepared foods, food prep equipment and surfaces.

    Yikes and Yuck ! pjb

  24. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Jul 10 2014 6:04:56
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    outsmartbb - 14 hours ago  » 
    ..... versus them breathing in my air to find me and take my blood.......

    Sorry you have anthropomorphized the insect here.

    They sense CO2 using adapted cells on their legs so their ability to find you have nothing to do with their breathing.

    I will also point out that while this concept is mildly amusing it will never pass UK consumer product safety testing and frankly there are better solutions in place already.

    I have pointed out the IP minefield you are sailing towards and doubt that you could get this one to market given the previous filings. While you may view this as someone trying to stymie your idea I can assure you I am actually more interested in helping you avoid a wasted investment.

    Even if you did get a solution that worked and was viable it will never be as effective in terms of results or costs to what we already have and do.

    Hope that makes sense.

    David Cain
    Bed Bugs Limited

    If you have found this information helpful please consider leaving feedback on social media via google+ or FaceBook or by like/loving the images.

    In accordance with the AUP and FTC (legal requirements) I openly disclose my vested interest in Passive Monitors as the inventor and patent holder. Since 2009 they have become an integral part in how we resolve bed bug infestations. I also have a professional relationship with PackTite in that they distribute my product under their own branding. I do not however receive any financial remuneration for any comments I make about products.
  25. loubugs

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 11:30:35
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    They sense CO2 using adapted cells on their legs so their ability to find you have nothing to do with their breathing.

    Not on legs, but antennal receptors? In some insects, the maxillary palps have sensory structures, but no palps in true bugs. I'd be interested knowing the about the leg receptors. Maybe receptors on tarsi?

  26. bed-bugscouk

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 12:26:28
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    Hi Lou,

    I cant recall which UK entomologist said it but I do recall a presentation that included a slide about CO2 sensing cells on the legs which was illustrated with an EM image that showed a hair coming out of a pore. It was said that this pore could sense CO2.

    As with all things physiology I would happily defer to your knowledge than to assume that someone else was being accurate.

    David

  27. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 13:42:26
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    Thank you all naysayers. Just say yes and let's find ways to make this happen. If we never did that, we'd still be living in caves, freezing and fighting off bears.

    Anyway, back to topic: anybody know what is the minimum voltage required to electrocute a bed bug?

  28. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 13:43:24
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    As to the concern of bed bug parts being airborne - that's taken care of by containing the electrocuting unit so that the bed bugs, upon being electrocuted, don't have their body parts flying anywhere outside the contained unit.

  29. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 13:44:07
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    How about this, to all you naysayers - when you come up with an issue of why it can't work, find a reason to overcome that issue to help get the product to work. Let's evolve. =)

  30. bed-bugscouk

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    Thu Jul 10 2014 13:58:18
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    Please, why do you assume this is needed?

    I have explained I have seen various attempts at this in the past and it is not effective for various technical reasons as well as the fact that its hardly suitable for those who can barely afford to eat.

    I am not sure I can share with you the data I have on previous versions for legal reasons (confidentiality agreements) but as I said it was way back in the past that an engineering and design student worked on this and while he could kill bedbugs it was not a cost viable solution.

    I have explained elsewhere I can already do what you want to achieve at minimal cost and chemical free so from my side of the fence you are in fact the naysayer who is lacking enlightenment.

    David

  31. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 15:29:07
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    Ok then David, by what method/s are bed bugs currently successfully exterminated? So far, I've tried conventional things: Temprid SC, Transport, DE, silica gel, interceptors, cryonite, heat treatment, and all have failed.

  32. loubugs

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    Thu Jul 10 2014 15:59:42
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    Sometimes it's really not the product, but the application of it. Follow-up reviews, re-treat if necessary. Perform non-chemical procedures. Are you applying these yourself? Following a specific regime so re-infestation is not a problem? In multifamily dwelling? Are neighbors also experiencing bed bug infestations, treating, reviewing situation, etc.?

  33. outsmartbb

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    Posted 3 years ago
    Thu Jul 10 2014 16:33:37
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    Thanks loubugs. Yes, I'm following a regiment to exterminate bed bugs entailing:
    vacuuming weekly,
    daily change of linens,
    laundering weekly,
    putting clothes and shoes just worn into sealed plastic bag inside airtight hamper upon arriving home,
    showering and washing my hair every morning and night before sleeping,
    soapy-water interceptor on bed legs,
    plastic shipping tape interceptor on ceiling,
    diatomaceous earth and silica powder on floors,
    spray down metal bed frame with contact killer before sleeping every night,


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