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buggedbrooklyn's post re freezing
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Buggedbrooklyn (not Buggedinbrooklyn) said:
Being that I can't start a new post, I'll continue on this one - I just found this interesting article on freezing books:
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/about/conservation/resources/insects/#freezing1
That sounds like a good start!
[BB: S will look into this I'm sure, but this is interesting so here's your post in a new thread.]
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 9 2007 21:03:12
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Thanks for the new post! I hope to hear some good news regarding this.
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S
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 9 2007 23:23:49
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Hey guys,
Freezing is a tough question. I keep hearing about freezing not working, that bedbugs will just go dormant and then, when removed from the freezer, re-awaken and go on with their little lives.
However, perhaps these people weren't freezing the bugs cold enough, or for long enough.
An excerpt from the article:
"The precise cause of death by freezing is not known. Possible factors include dehydration, osmotic swelling, loss of bound water, changed enzyme reaction rates, ice crystal formation, and the rupture of cell walls."
Interesting!
"Insects can survive freezing if they are not frozen quickly enough, not frozen at cold enough temperatures, or not thawed slowly enough. Repeated cycles of freezing and thawing can kill even those insects that are resistant to freezing."
So we'd want to quickly drop them into a freezing chamber, rather than slowly cranking down the temperature. Also, the "repeated cycles" thing is interesting. I think Willow mentioned trying this - alternating his items between hot and cold. (I guess it depends on how much access you have to either temperature range).
It also mentions some actual temperatures:
"Even the hardiest insects can be killed by a single exposure to temperatures between 45-65 degrees centigrade (113-149 degrees Fahrenheit) over a 6 day period or 10-40 degrees centigrade (14-40 degrees Fahrenheit) over a 25 day period."
So that quote tells us that it takes longer to kill bugs with cold (25 days at 14-40 degrees) than heat (6 days at 113-149 degrees).
I still think heat is better than cold, as a general rule of thumb for dealing with bedbugs. However, if a storage center could guarantee to keep my items below zero for a month, I guess I'd consider that to be worthwhile.
Anyone else? The ever-contentious issue of freezing?
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 2:29:48
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Sheffield University UK is doing a lot of work on bed bugs and Richard Naylor from there presented findings on freezing (and washing temperatures necessary to kill bb's) at a recent Pest Control conference in London. I emailed him and he replied as follows:-
"Freezing is a good way to treat unwashables. My trials support some previous work which showed that it takes 2 hours at -17C to kill all life stages. Most household freezers go down to about -18C to -20C. The main problem here is the insulating affect of the laundry. The centre of a 2.5 kg bag of dry laundry (enough to fill an average size freezer drawer) takes about 8 hours to reach -17C. This means that you need to freeze a draw-full of laundry for at least 10 hours to be sure you have killed everything."However I should add that I have also spoken to Sean at the Bedbug Resource about this and he has always had some reservations about freezing based on his own experiences. Although this research has been presented and is in the public domain it has not yet been published and until it is I suppose the exact methodology of the research can't be evaluated by others. Personally I think it sounds encouraging especially for when you can't treat things any other way. My PCO recommends that you freeze items in a chest freezer for a minimum of two weeks and I think this is probably the key. The length of time you freeze stuff has to be sufficient to ensure that the temperature can penetrate fully. It also has to be a low enough temperature - I really don't think sticking stuff outside when it's cold as I have read would work. Heat is probably a quicker and therefore more efficient way of dealing with the bed bug but in cases when you can't use heat then freezing could be useful. I do have a concern though about the defrosting and the moisture involved especially with things like books.
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 7:28:48
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I wish someone else had done this before, as I'd hate to be a guinea pig with all of my belongings. But 2 hours at a core temperature of 1.4 degrees F *should* kill them, then a full month at a maximum temperature of 0 degrees will definitely kill them?
As for reducing the moisture involved, my plan would involve packaging items in my apartment with a the A/C cranked up pretty high (to draw the moisture out of the air) and to use Ziploc bags (and vacuum-sealed Space Bags when necessary) to eliminate most of the air in the packaging.
FYI - this is all in reference to a cold storage facility I found in the Brooklyn Navy Yards that will offer cold storage on a monthly basis. They also have a -20 blast freezer, but I'm a little worried about that... (book, CDs, and photos seem OK in a cold car left outside overnight, but don't know how'd they'd fare in that same car in northern Quebec-like temps.)
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 7:56:40
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The cold centigrade temperatures in the link posted by BB at the start of this thread are incorrect I think. Assuming the farenheit figures are correct the centigrade figures should read -10 deg C to 4 deg C. The temps it lists - 10 - 40 degrees centigrade are not cold at all (40 degrees centigrade is actually really hot (104 deg F). May be useful if you want to try this and work in centigrade.
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 8:07:39
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Fedupandparanoid -
FYI - the sentence "or �10 to �40 degrees centigrade (14 to �40 degrees Fahrenheit) over a 25 day period."
I think those should be -10 to -40 C or 14 to -40 F.
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 8:24:29
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Hi BB maths generally is not my strong point but I just wanted to clarify this. -10 C converts to 14 F but -40C does not convert to -40F. I took the +40F to be most likely correct which converts to 4 centigrade which seemed a reasonable temperature range. It seems the temperature required to kill bedbugs is pretty crucial and I thought the figures were misleading/inaccurate in the original article but as I say maths is not my strong point and converting F to C and vice versa is confusing.
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I always find it confusing but this is an easy way to know
go to goolge.com
type
40 Celsius in Fahrenheit or
100 Fahrenheit in Celsius
and google will calculate for you -
buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 8:34:45
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FU&P - sorry, but yes, -40 F and -40 C are the same temperature. Kelvin doesn't line up like that, but the equation for converting between the two standards equals at -40.
The equation: °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32
makes
(-40 x 1.8) + 32 or (-72) + 32 or -40.
I would be bummed if I had to find a -40 now...
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 8:47:52
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Wow I am so sorry about the - 40 F/C I did not know that and that is a new thing I learned today. Sorry if I confused the issue further. So to clarify the figures in the original link are misleading and it should read
-10 to -40 C or 14 to -40 F.
as you said a couple of posts ago. But then as you say -40 is going to be difficult whatever.....
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 8:55:06
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Luckily that link refers to just insects in general, perhaps including tricky arctic bugs or something. I'd love to get some hard evidence on bed bugs in particular.
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 9:16:43
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You'll probably find the Sheffield University research that I mentioned earlier interesting. This was trials specifically on bed bugs and presented to Pestex 07 (biggest Pest Control convention in Europe) and which had a seminar devoted solely to bed bugs. The sooner they publish the better.
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 9:57:56
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Yeah - absolutely. Hopefully I can get some "insider" info sooner than later, though...
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 13:41:18
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I received very promising word from Richard Naylor regarding the freezing of bed bugs. I will begin the process of determining what can and can't be frozen before attempting this procedure. So far it looks like books and clothing are OK - will be checking on CDs, DVDs, and perhaps electronics and the such...
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Fedupandparanoid
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 14:22:46
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Hi BB did you email Richard Naylor? Was he able to provide more detailed information as to what can be frozen?
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 10 2007 14:36:53
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I did e-mail him, though I did not ask him what can/can't be frozen. Figured that wasn't his area of expertise - all I wanted to hear was that there was a "very good chance" that the cold would kill the bugs, which he confirmed, citing a 1936 experiment by Kemper and following it up with identical research performed by him.
It seems that CDs/DVDs are frequently frozen to elongate shelf life, so I imagine that they're OK - I guess the packaging is what I'm to be concerned about at this point. I don't know what I plan on doing with things like framed pictures and the such - will try to figure out if they're OK being frozen.
He did specifically mention clothing, though, which should save a significant amount of money on dry cleaning.
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buggedbrooklyn
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun May 13 2007 17:02:59
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Well - tested CDs, DVDs, and a magazine in my freezer - put them in for over 24 hours, let them come back to room temperature - no apparent moisture damage (they were sealed in Ziploc bags, as I intend to do with all of my stuff) - CD and DVD played fine with no damage to booklets or cases.
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willow-the-wisp
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun May 13 2007 17:48:34
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hey there bb: I recently read that pictures in frames and that type of wood and canvas wheter left on the stretchers or not and the frames themselves were not good to try freezing. Pictures and wall hangings with wooden type frames were the top two DON'T FREEZE items on the list:
This aticle I saw ... recently ... Was it one of Winston O' Buggy's Articles on the blog? I don't recall it did have the word "freeze" in the title and probalby had "bed bug" in the article's title too! itr was an deep olive green paper and plack print. ... sorry ...
Sorry I can't be more specific! But I'm sure it said NOT to freeze paintings.
And it went on as you have about "getting the moisture as much as possibe before sealing for various reasons, so perhaps you already saw that article anyway. (And it talked about the expansion and contraction during freeing and thawing in concunction with moisture that was what was being focused upon in the article. The expansion contraction rates etc. ... were discused as pertaining to dmamage caused by this freezing process).
oh yeah: BOOKS TOO WERE MENTIONED!!! GETTING OUT ALL THE AIR AND PERHAPS NOT FREEZING VALUABLE BOOKS WAS THE GENERAL GIST -
jimb5140
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 4 2007 13:27:37
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Any sample Bed bugs I find I stuck in an empty Fiji water bottle and put in the freezer for 1 night. They were always dead the next morning, and I mean dead as a doornail, I shake em around and they toss around upside down like a bunch of breadcrumbs.
perhaps the freezer is set very high. I open it up and everything is well frosted, with lots of fog coming out when I open it.
I'm considering doing this with more stuff after real treatment.
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willow-the-wisp
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 4 2007 15:28:21
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All ... I'd read this article guys. it is more complicated that just putting a bug in a bottle in the freezer. Ii have done that too jimb and I've seen similar results. It is the "mass freezing" of items that needs more caution--and ... many things can be ruined by the ice. Summer is the time for baking your bugs and winter is the opposite--overall generally speaking imho.
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paulaw0919
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 4 2007 22:06:38
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Very good reading on that article. I was told by PCo that freezing only works if the temp drops very quickly and must stay in there for very long time. Otherwise they thaw and live. But that article is very good about steaming!! Gotta check out for amerivap systems.....
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willow-the-wisp
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Posted 2 years ago
Sat Aug 4 2007 23:26:18
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http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/about/conservation/resources/insects/#freezing1
here is the article i was refering to a few posts up. I think it is the same article at the top of this link, so if you've not read that link but now feel you need to--go for it or visit the Bed bugger FAQ as well: Nobugs put it up a few posts but should anyone miss it--here it is again. Both articles hold great things to know, about Bed bugs and storing at alternate temps to kill bed bugs--or just killing them at alternate temps. Using this info you can have success and cause as little damage as possible to some of your more treasured items.
http://bedbugger.com/2007/08/04/faq-leaving-stuff-out-to-freeze-walk-in-freezers-etc-how-cold-and-how-long/ -
WelcometoFlatbush
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Posted 2 years ago
Sun Sep 9 2007 14:50:13
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So the one thing i have left in sealed bags that i dont know how to treat are vinyl records
i have about 100 of them , and many of them are my girlfriends, not mine, and she would rather take the chance of reinfestion than throw them all out.
I was going to freeze them, (i froze one record and it came out fine)
but i think what might damage them is the thaw in the cardboard record sleave, condensation might get the whole thing wet and warp it or get it moldy.I have a 5 cubic foot chest freezer, ive been freezing things for 5-10 days, depending on how much insulation it has. I didnt have a bad infestation, then moved, so i may not have any bugs at all, but what should i do about the records?
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Flatbush, if you don't want to freeze them (which may be risky), you probably have to keep in sealed bag (inside tub for security) for 18 months.
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crushworth
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue Sep 18 2007 13:37:58
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Flatbush,
I work at a botanical garden where we freeze dried plant specimens (paper and dried plants, sometimes a couple hundred years old, often packaged in cardboard) in chest freezers at -20 C. I'm especially glad we have them now that I have a bedbug infestation! Tomorrow, and for the next couple of weeks, I'll be using those freezers myself for my delicate laundry that can't be washed and dried.
I've often used the freezers for books that I find on the street. If you put the records into tightly sealed plastic bags and allow them to thaw completely before unsealing the bags, they shouldn't suffer any moisture damage.
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Crushworth, that's good to know. A lot of people are worried about books. When you have frozen books in this manner, did you vacuum seal them or just put them in a ziploc bag with as little air as possible or how exactly did you seal them in plastic? Your pointers should be extremely helpful to others in this situation! Thanks in advance if you can elaborate. Of course, not everyone has access to a great freezer like that but still!
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