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BED BUG AND TERMITE K9 RESEARCH
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 15:10:25
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Let me first reference J. Econ. Entomol. 96(4): 1259-1266 (2003). This should hopefully direct you to the research that was conducted at the University of Florida in 2003 Department of Entomology on K-9's detecting termites. It was determined that the dogs tested which, were Beagles had, a false positive of 25.33%. These testing results would be totally unacceptable for Fire Service or Law Enforcement K9's.
Research by the same research group in 2008 tested K9's that appear to be anything other then Beagles. The results showed dogs more along the line of a Schnauzer or Bovieri mixed breed. Furthermore, the research showed that the dogs tested accurate 98%.
The researcher in the (2003) termite K9 research, sited research conducted in, (1976)
showing German Shepherds having a 95% positive detection rate detecting Gypsy Moth eggs. Moreover, they sited research that showed German Wirehaired Pointers a accuracy rate 0f 99% when detecting Screw Worms. I believe this research supports what I have claimed.What does the aggregate of the research demonstrate? Clearly, Beagles are not the best breed of dog to work for this type of stationary scent task. Beagles do not look for a scent cone which, is what is required for for bed bug and other insect detection. I would actually, rate the Beagle breed at, the end of the spectrum for stationary detection work.
So why have people been selling Beagles as bed bug detection dogs?
1. They are readily available at shelters as, they are the number 1. dog for being lost.
2. The are not intimidating.
3. They are undemanding, requiring little attention.
Aside from the K9 group type being, very important in detecting bed bugs so, is the experience of the dog handler critical. Contact your respective police K9 handler find out how long it takes for trainer and K9 to become accustom to one another after their extensive training program. Businesses selling bed bug dogs have the prospective handler and K9 together with, seller oversight for one week and then send them out on their own. The alleged certification that the Bed Bug K9 sales companies claim provides, no third party evaluation which shows the lack of transparency in the testing process. You might even check with your local Heath Department to see if the have evaluated the alleged bed bug detection dogs capabilities.
We will probably have individuals contradict what I have written. Those people probably own a Beagle that, they claim is a bed bug detection dog.
Gary Broberg
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 17:04:52
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Gary
I believe that the dogs that were evaluated in the 2008 study were mostly Beagles. They also tested a Jack Russell & Pepe's Chinese Crested female in addition to the five Beagles.
Here is the section of the article describing the dogs that were utilized for the study
Canines. Seven dogs were used in the following experiments (IACUC protocol E732). Dog A was a 10-yr old spayed female beagle. Dog B was a 4-yr-old spayed female Chinese crested. Dog C was a 2-yr-old spayed female beagle mix. Dog D was a 2-yr-old spayed female beagle mix. Dog E was a 1-yr-old neutered male Jack Russell terrier. Dog F was a 1-yr-old spayed female beagle. Dog G was a 2-yr-old neutered male beagle.
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 19:53:28
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hatesbedbugs - 4 hours ago »
We will probably have individuals contradict what I have written. Those people probably own a Beagle that, they claim is a bed bug detection dog.
Gary BrobergHi Gary,
You have a lab detection dog, yes? I don't think you can claim your position is not related to a bias but others' necessarily are.
Can you tell us who trained your dog?
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 19:54:45
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DougSummersMS - 2 hours ago »
I believe that the dogs that were evaluated in the 2008 study were mostly Beagles.Gosh, Doug.
Looks like more than a belief. 5/7 were beagles?!?
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 20:12:44
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Yeah, I wrote that before I pulled up the study & quoted the canine section.
I knew that Pepe had used his Chinese Crested female in the study.... he usually trains Beagles for bed bug work.
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Thu Dec 25 2008 21:44:06
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So, I was correct! NOBUG, I feel your criticism of my post is very much out of line. You attempt to disqualify my statements by stating they are made with prejudice and or bias just don't hold water. You did not see one reference, to a Labrador Retriever or a Poodle which is my other dog. My references were always made from those that were made in the research.
Also, I would be happy to refer you to the person that trained my dog. They are one of the top dog trainers in the world. Their cost is about $22.000. The dog however, is able to multi task. providing a number of services. Hypothetically, he can train your dog to find bed bugs, termites and scorpions if you like, collectively or, separately.
Gary Broberg
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Posted 4 years ago
Sat Dec 27 2008 5:51:48
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hatesbedbugs - 1 day ago »
So, I was correct! NOBUG, I feel your criticism of my post is very much out of line. You attempt to disqualify my statements by stating they are made with prejudice and or bias just don't hold water. You did not see one reference, to a Labrador Retriever or a Poodle which is my other dog. My references were always made from those that were made in the research.Gary,
You are trying to discredit all bed bug sniffing beagles. It's my understanding that both Pepe Peruyero and Bill Whitstine are training beagles, among other breeds, to effectively sniff out bed bugs. Hence my curiosity as to who trained your dog.
Doug helpfully referenced the recent studies from U Florida which showed the effectiveness of bed bug sniffing k9s. They showed that 5/7 dogs tested were beagles.
This information discredits your position. Perhaps you would like to respond to that instead.
I am simply pointing out that you perhaps have a stake in discrediting certain breeds which differ from the ones you use in your work.
We ALL have biases. But it is important to note them out in the open.
(I'm a dachshund gal myself, but not in the bed bug k9 business.)
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paulaw0919
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Posted 4 years ago
Sat Dec 27 2008 10:16:00
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A spade is a spade, a bed bug is a bed bug, a flea is a flea. I hope there isn't more incorrect info suggested like Vikane doesn't "penetrate bed bug eggs." Totally false, nothing to back this up, only the opposite. I called hatesbedbugs on it and corrected him when he was under "hatebedbugs" but he didn't respond to that, nor stand to be corrected.
Hatesbedbugs, with all respect to you, please don't make statements as such for you can really put some people in a mental panic. People are dealing with their entire livelihood when dealing with this bug. Since you are a called "professional," you as anyone can state your "opinion" but when you make hard statements be sure to back it up with something that proves so scientifically, not just your opinion. Professionals that contribute here seem to pretty much be an open book, honest and are very helpful. For some reason it seems you to chose to ignore questions when you are called on them by either a bedbug sufferer or professional. You seem bring yourself on harsh and defensive at times and chose to answer what you wish and ignore the rest. How is that a contribution?
If you spent $22k on a dog and rave about how much better this training is than all others, wouldn't it be best for all to know where the training came from? Why not just say so from the get go. Some one who has had or still has bed bugs would want to know such information for it would make a decision much more informative. You obviously believe in your k9 and based your business on it. Most professional K9 businesses are also open book on their professional websites as well, stating where, who and what kind of certification the k9's hold. (another example, imo, of not giving all info in being helpful for some one to make choices during an infestation)Oh, and Nobugs, I'm a Jack Russel Terrier person myself. Absolutely LOVED my little guy. But between age, and stress from bed bug treatments, being in kennels numerous times, and being around pesticides I guess, made his health take a huge downfall. I had no choice but to put him to rest. I love him dearly and know he's not suffering anymore. He was the smartest and best little friend I ever had.
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Sat Dec 27 2008 14:13:06
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Nobugs, I believe you are being very unfair with you assertions about my position on using Beagles for bed bug detection. I have also, indicated in past posts on other threads that, other breads and K9 groups that would be less effective. For example, If you remember correctly, I told you that a Bloodhound would not be an appropriate choice for detecting bed bugs. On the other hand, I did specifically say, dogs that were from the herding group and Retriever Group would be far more effecting in detecting bed bugs and eggs. That includes about forty dog breeds. How does that demonstrate Beagle bias? I also, told you that K9 bed bug detection was a very small part of my K9 detection business. For the sake of not being redundant you may, refer back to my posts which, describe the other services that I offer and refresh your memory. Finally, you forever chastise posters for their derogatory name calling and yet, you call me "obnoxious". I would say that is a double standard, wouldn't you?
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Sat Dec 27 2008 14:54:06
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Paulaw, let me preface by saying I have no expertise in the use of Vikane or fumigation. My references to Vikane were based upon the following posts:
Flighorflight
Post 679ihatebugs
Post 30Sereneseek
Post 47Moreover, I never said I paid $22,000 for my dog. READ MY POST! Where did I say that, I paid $22,000 for my dog? If you read the post correctly it says, "I will refer you to the dog trainer." And it says "their cost is about $22,000." Paulaw, it is hard to spin something when, one can scroll up and see what was actually said.
Now, lets discuss this bed bug dog certification issue for about the twelve time. My position is that a certification is not something that is pumped out of ones computer. A certification is a document that validates that something is authentic, attests to the truth and efficacy of testing procedure, and those doing the testing, allowing for complete transparency. A process such as, I have described requires a unbiased third party for the evaluation process. And if you do not have these ingredients; when it comes time in a court of law where the dog owner/handler has to defend their actions a good lawyer will tear them apart. Dog owner/handler will have to provide, transparent documentation. This is not rocket science. Go look at the web sites of those claiming a certification process.
Kind regards,
Gary
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Posted 4 years ago
Sun Dec 28 2008 4:15:16
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hatesbedbugs - 13 hours ago »
Nobugs, I believe you are being very unfair with you assertions about my position on using Beagles for bed bug detection.Gary,
You started this thread by claiming beagles make bad bed bug dogs. You said,
Research by the same research group in 2008 tested K9's that appear to be anything other then Beagles. The results showed dogs more along the line of a Schnauzer or Bovieri mixed breed. Furthermore, the research showed that the dogs tested accurate 98%.
Doug then pointed out that, in fact, you are incorrect, since 5/7 of the dogs from the study were beagles.
Are you going to correct yourself, or shall we assume that you do not care about facts?
hatesbedbugs - 13 hours ago »
Finally, you forever chastise posters for their derogatory name calling and yet, you call me "obnoxious". I would say that is a double standard, wouldn't you?I guess I am losing my patience with you, Gary.
Your persistent unwillingness to listen to factual corrections of your statements is irritating. Some of us are trying to look out for the readers' best interests, and the best thing we can do is share good information. We aren't all always right about everything, and it is important to say so when we realize it. (Before that, it's important to realize it.)
The fact that you seem keen to lash out at all kinds of bed bug professionals here is unique, since we generally have a fairly congenial atmosphere, even amongst those who use different techniques, or come at this problem from different angles.
Those of us (like me) who are not PCOs, entos, bed bug treatment pros of one kind or another, or dog trainers or handlers appreciate that all you pros are here. We learn a lot from you. But I suspect the best bed bug pros here will tell you they are learning something new too.
You seem to have a sense of competition with others here, and I don't understand why. I can only assume you are trying to further your business. My sense of the bed bug k9 business is that there are few teams out there -- in any locale -- and most seem to be doing fairly good business. Therefore, the cutthroat approach does not make sense to me.
Try to remember that the real enemy is the bed bug, there's more than one way to find and kill 'em, and the best weapon is good solid information.
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Sun Dec 28 2008 22:45:33
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Nobugs
What is really frightening is that you can't even quote me correctly. No where, in my opening post in this thread did I ever say "Beagles were bad bed bug dogs." Scroll up and please quote me correctly. Remember your readers are not stupid. Your attempt to twist and spin what I say does nothing but insult the intelligence of the people reading these information posts. There is an old saying, "it takes along time to earn credibility but, one can loose it all instantly. I think it would behove you to do better research and collect your alleged facts more carefully.
You want the facts on the research? I will give you the facts again, because apparently you have CLEARLY not, read the research or, any of the news releases on the research.
I told you that the 2003 termite K9 research at the University of Florida showed the Beagles with a 25.33. Beagles were the only bread of dogs being used.
The 2008 University of Florida bed bug k9 research showed the use of not, five Beagles as you claim but, rather three beagles, a Jack Russell Terrier and A Chinese Crested which, was alleged mixed with terrier according to their news release. In addition there two other dogs of mixed breeds. Now, one can assume that a mixed breed dog can be of a particular breed by looking at it. However, the only factual way to determine the breed the dog actually is, is to have known the dogs lineage or, do a DNA test which, is available for 136 breeds from two companies currently providing such information.
The 2008 research claimed that the dogs produced an accuracy rate of 98%.
The 2003 three termite K9 research acknowledged other insect K9 research using German Shepherds, (1976) with, a 95% detection accuracy and German Wirehaired Pointers with a detection accuracy of 99%. My objective was to point out the disparity with the detection accuracy with the Beagles used in the 2003 and the dogs which consisted of more dog breeds other than pure Beagles in the (2008),(1976) bed bug K9 research and other K9 acknowledged detection research.
So, please tell me what is not accurate with the information that I began with in this thread?
"Cut-throat" you, accused me of being. Again, these aspersions you cast on me show an apparent lack of substance in your thought process. It does not make you look very good in the eyes of, the majority of your readers. You also again for third time accused me of using this site for "furthering my business". I will say this one last time, bed bug K9 detection work was 1.57% of my businesses for 2008. I currently have a six week back log for specialized pipe line leak detection and e-coil detection.
I believe your intent here is, not as altruistic as you claim. Lets face it, you make money of this web site which, apparently you own. No more bed bugs....no more financial remuneration derived from the site. And it is good that your receive compensation for your Key master efforts; I have no problem with that and never would. This is a great web site. What I find disturbing is, your glowing defence of some questionable bed bug service and product providers and the products or services that they sell. Moreover, knowing that others have provided information that may not be completely supportive but, would be valuable in the bed bug victims decision making process. I believe your better of giving all reported positions or nothing. On-the other-hand, I have no agenda. My interest is to have intellectual debate with the professionals on this web site and offer insight where I can, to those bed bug victims who, request it.
Finally,as for your lack of patience with me; I can't help you with that. You might want to seek some Anger Management Counseling.
Kind regards,
Gary
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Anonymous
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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Dec 29 2008 0:40:15
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No, no, no, you didn't actually write this:
No more bed bugs....no more financial remuneration derived from the site.
How dare you? Really, sir, how dare you?
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Posted 4 years ago
Mon Dec 29 2008 3:57:08
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hatesbedbugs - 4 hours ago »
The 2008 University of Florida bed bug k9 research showed the use of not, five Beagles as you claim but, rather three beagles, a Jack Russell Terrier and A Chinese Crested which, was alleged mixed with terrier according to their news release. In addition there two other dogs of mixed breeds.
And now, Gary, you are wasting my time.
I just dug out the article on the 2008 research and quote, as Doug did:
Seven dogs were used in the following ex-
periments (IACUC protocol E732). Dog A was a 10-yr-
old spayed female beagle. Dog B was a 4-yr-old spayed
female Chinese crested. Dog C was a 2-yr-old spayed
female beagle mix. Dog D was a 2-yr-old spayed female
beagle mix. Dog E was a 1-yr-old neutered male Jack
Russell terrier. Dog F was a 1-yr-old spayed female bea-
gle. Dog G was a 2-yr-old neutered male beagle.Dogs A, F and G are beagles
Dogs C and D were beagle mixes.The predominant breed is named. Even if only 3/7 dogs were pure beagle, my point stands.
These were 5 (or 3) of the 7 dogs who achieved a 98% accuracy rate in the hotel experiment.
In your first post above, you said,
What does the aggregate of the research demonstrate? Clearly, Beagles are not the best breed of dog to work for this type of stationary scent task. Beagles do not look for a scent cone which, is what is required for for bed bug and other insect detection. I would actually, rate the Beagle breed at, the end of the spectrum for stationary detection work.
The research simply shows those beagles tested by the U of Florida did a fine job.
I believe your intent here is, not as altruistic as you claim. Lets face it, you make money of this web site which, apparently you own. No more bed bugs....no more financial remuneration derived from the site. And it is good that your receive compensation for your Key master efforts; I have no problem with that and never would. This is a great web site. What I find disturbing is, your glowing defence of some questionable bed bug service and product providers and the products or services that they sell. Moreover, knowing that others have provided information that may not be completely supportive but, would be valuable in the bed bug victims decision making process. I believe your better of giving all reported positions or nothing. On-the other-hand, I have no agenda. My interest is to have intellectual debate with the professionals on this web site and offer insight where I can, to those bed bug victims who, request it.Gary, I started the site in 2006 and ran it for 6 months, working many hours a day (because for a long, long time, before lots of people came on board, there were only a couple of us amateurs answering questions, and there were a lot of questions). I only put in ads after that time. If the site did not bring in some money, I could not keep it going.
In fact, advertising brings in very little compared with the time and effort put into the site, and everyone is free to use the information regardless (as it should be). If I just wanted to make money, there are easier ways to do it in much less time.
And just so I am perfectly clear, I am not complaining. I love running the site. The people make it worthwhile.
But if you think I am happy about the continued presence of bed bugs, because I am able to capitalize on them, then you are sorely mistaken. That's offensive. I started this site when I had bed bugs and was unable to find information that I needed, because there was not much at the time.
What I find disturbing is, your glowing defence of some questionable bed bug service and product providers and the products or services that they sell.If you are referring to the fact that I mentioned (in another thread) the names of two well-known bed bug k9 trainers, then you were not reading carefully enough: I did not endorse them. (In fact, I kept my opinions on them to myself.)
In fact, they're the only two bed bug k9 trainers I know of (remember, you won't disclose the name of the person who trained your dog). I don't have any stake in their businesses. I don't recommend one above the other.
Finally, I do not need anger management counseling. I am being extremely patient with you. Please be pleasant or go away.
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hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Tue Dec 30 2008 13:31:33
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Nobugs,
My suggestion is that you provide the links to both research pieces, bed bug K9 (2008) and termite K9 (2003 along with all, press release links relating to the research. Because again, you have been remiss in your presentation of all relevant details.
I will digress for a moment, refreshing the readers with my position on the use and none use of certain dog groups and breeds for bed bug scent detection tasks.
I have given examples and sited research that shows that K9 members of the hound group with a focus on Beagles as, not be able to provide maximum efficiency for bed bug, scent detection tasks. Examples that I gave were the Alphagan and Greyhound of the hound group which are primarily use sight location. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone with expertise in the area of dog training and handling giving support to these breeds, making great bed bug detection dogs. They do not have the inbred scent cone detection capabilities.
Despite the solid examples and the research you maintain the position that it does not matter the breed of dog but, rather the individual dog. I'm at a loss as to why you continue to take such a myopic position.
My concern is that you advocacy appears to be geared more towards those, providing Pest Control, bed bug detection, products and services no matter how potentially deficient; with less advocacy for the victims.
Correct me if I am wrong but, did you not tell us that you had worked in the Pest Control industry?
Now, I will divulge information about who trained my dogs and even give you may background and experience as, I hope you will do the same. Leave out the who trained your dog part as, I really don't care who trained your dog.
I trained all of my dogs.
BACKGROUNG EXPERIENCE:
State of Ohio full time rated fire fighter certification
United States Department of Transportation Marine Firefighting Certification
Advanced Emergency Medical Technician Certification
Certified Hazardous Materials Instructor
1994 Appointed State of Ohio FEMA Task Force Search Manager. (Responsibilities included
direction of all electronic and K9 search activities.)1994 Deployed to Beaver County Pennsylvania with K9 Bo to assist in the detection and recovery of human remains of one hundred thirty seven individuals from U S Air plane crash. This required eight days.
1995 Deployed to the bombing of the Federal Building Oklahoma city with K9 Bo, to assist in the detection and recovery of human remains.
Over the life of K9 Bo we assisted police and fire services in locating seven deceased individuals and one alzheimer's victim.
I hope this information provided is helpful.
Kind regards, and may you and yours have a wonderfully prosperous and happy new year.
Gary Broberg
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Posted 4 years ago
Tue Dec 30 2008 13:50:05
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hatesbedbugs - 13 minutes ago »
Despite the solid examples and the research you maintain the position that it does not matter the breed of dog but, rather the individual dog. I'm at a loss as to why you continue to take such a myopic position.
My concern is that you advocacy appears to be geared more towards those, providing Pest Control, bed bug detection, products and services no matter how potentially deficient; with less advocacy for the victims.
Correct me if I am wrong but, did you not tell us that you had worked in the Pest Control industry?
Now, I will divulge information about who trained my dogs and even give you may background and experience as, I hope you will do the same. Leave out the who trained your dog part as, I really don't care who trained your dog.Gary,
I have never claimed to work in the Pest Control industry. This is why I have in this very thread referred to myself as an "amateur" and others as "professionals."
I have previously linked to the studies mentioned and I am not going to dig them up and repeat this, you can do so yourself.
You say,
"Despite the solid examples and the research you maintain the position that it does not matter the breed of dog but, rather the individual dog. I'm at a loss as to why you continue to take such a myopic position."
In fact, I have never said any such thing. So there. You, Gary, are the one who is misrepresenting my words. Your response shows how clearly you are not reading my messages, but are projecting onto them.
I am done with this discussion. If anyone else wishes to ask questions, I am there for that, but I have no wish to discuss anything with you further. Period.
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Notsolucky
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Wed Dec 31 2008 5:26:29
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hatesbedbugs - 2 days ago »
"Cut-throat" you, accused me of being. Again, these aspersions you cast on me show an apparent lack of substance in your thought process. It does not make you look very good in the eyes of, the majority of your readers. You also again for third time accused me of using this site for "furthering my business". I will say this one last time, bed bug K9 detection work was 1.57% of my businesses for 2008. I currently have a six week back log for specialized pipe line leak detection and e-coil detection.
I believe your intent here is, not as altruistic as you claim. Lets face it, you make money of this web site which, apparently you own. No more bed bugs....no more financial remuneration derived from the site. And it is good that your receive compensation for your Key master efforts; I have no problem with that and never would. This is a great web site. What I find disturbing is, your glowing defence of some questionable bed bug service and product providers and the products or services that they sell. Moreover, knowing that others have provided information that may not be completely supportive but, would be valuable in the bed bug victims decision making process. I believe your better of giving all reported positions or nothing. On-the other-hand, I have no agenda. My interest is to have intellectual debate with the professionals on this web site and offer insight where I can, to those bed bug victims who, request it.
Finally,as for your lack of patience with me; I can't help you with that. You might want to seek some Anger Management Counseling.
Kind regards,
GaryNobugs I hope you dont mind this vent but I think you are being far too polite.
Gary,
A number of months ago I came to this website like 100's of others do I suspect daily because they have or fear they have a bedbug infestation. Fortunately for us this time we didn't. Dh and I travel quite extensively, and because of what we have learned here we want to take all precautions possible, we are awaiting delivery of one of the new monitors so once in awhile I check in to see if there are any updates. That said, when we did think that we had an infestation this website and many of those who contribute were a godsend to us, as it is to many others. There are many pros who contribute to this board and most if not all are selfless, helpful individuals who take their spare time to assist others. NoBugs has selflessly provided a service for 1000's and if you think for one X#&*XX@#$!!! monent that anyone here is going to pay any regard to anything you have to say after that nasty diatribe IMHO you are completely out of your mind. I dont know whether any of your comments have any validity, quite frankly after reading what you wrote here I dont care. What I do know is that if you were in my area when I was looking for a dog to inspect I wouldnt have called you given the way you have represented yourself here . I dont care how good your dogs are, I simply would rather take my chances elsewhere. Understand that you are not doing yourself or your business any favours participating in this manner, and you owe nobugs an apology for these rude ,false and downrite nasty comments. -
hatesbedbugs
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Posted 4 years ago
Wed Dec 31 2008 12:46:49
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Notsolucky,
I have keep my dialog well within the parameters of social and scientific debate, framework. Moreover, unlike you and Nonugsonme I lifted my cloak of unanimity at the request of Nobugsonme. You know exactly who I am and where I live. That puts me on the front line, in the open line of fire, while, you and Nobugs, shoot your bullets at me, from behind the rocks. I think your comments provide more cathartic value for you than, the unfortunate bed bug victims reading this thread who seeking solid, uncontaminated information. Hope you feel better.
Kind regards,
Gary Broberg
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Posted 4 years ago
Wed Dec 31 2008 13:10:24
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Can we please close this thread with the last comment being that bed bugs do in fact bring out the worst in people from time to time. I mean that from both victims and solution providers.
This site is an open forum and attracts are types of debate, it is the unfortunate fact that open resources will attract both good and bad advice at times.
Although I am all for open debate and acceptance of all ideas I am also very keen on people keeping things professional and at least polite.
I will try and not pass any judgements on either side of this discussion other than to say there are lessons that individuals need to take into account.
I would council all that if you wish to post below be aware that you comments are most likely to reflect badly on yourself.
Its simple best not to feed the trolls.
David
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