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BBs , landlords, and Kingsway in NYC
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10111
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Posted 2 years ago
Mon May 9 2011 15:34:44
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I am pretty sure we have a low level BB infestation. We've had two inspections, one canine with a handler that did not do visual confirmation, and another highly reputable inspector who, when viewing the bite pattern on my shoulders told us my bites were "classic" bed bug bites and that he was absolutely sure that we had bed bugs. This reputable inspector did not do a full inspection but also did not charge us anything for his visit (despite staying for quite a bit and giving us a lot of information) because he was so certain that we had an infestation.
We rent our apartment and paid the canine team out of our own pocket. We would have also paid the secondary inspector on our own, but he didn't want to take our money when he felt so certain that we had an infestation. Problem is, the landlord does not seem to be convinced that we have BBs, and wants to hire his own inspectors. His regular extermination company was supposed to send their own inspector, but they didn't come, now he's contracted with Kingsway in NYC to do a visual inspection. I am left wondering a few things:
1) If visual confirmation can't be found, as we have an early infestation, what to do with our landlord, who seems skeptical.
2) Based on posts here, Kingsway in NYC does not seem to have a great deal of expertise. I spoke with their rep and they only apply insecticide, no steam treatment or other approaches. We have a small child under 1 yr. old.I would love to be able to just hire the exterminator that I feel is most capable. I've already spoken with a few companies and have researched the various eradication procedures. I am not comfortable with an insecticide-only approach. I also have my concerns about the company the landlord has contracted with.
Any feedback, or information would be appreciated.
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your host
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue May 10 2011 1:11:44
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We've had two inspections, one canine with a handler that did not do visual confirmation, and another highly reputable inspector who, when viewing the bite pattern on my shoulders told us my bites were "classic" bed bug bites and that he was absolutely sure that we had bed bugs.
Sorry, but even doctors can't diagnose bed bugs based on skin reactions. They can biopsy a bite and tell you an insect bit you, but that's it.
No one can tell you from looking at your skin that you were bitten by bed bugs.
You have not had anyone find evidence of bed bugs in your home. You need that before treatment commences.
Personally, I would let the landlord's inspector come in. If they do a visual inspection, then that's more than you've had so far.
If they do not find evidence, then you can place some monitors (such as the BBAlert Passives Monitor or ClimbUps, and the Bed Bug Beacon active monitor -- see this FAQ), which may detect a problem if left a while. It can take time. I would run an active monitor for two weeks and leave passive monitors down longer, inspecting every week.
Monitors may catch a sample you can show your landlord.
It's possible you have a problem besides bed bugs which is causing the skin problem. It's also possible you were bitten outside of your home.
You may choose to hire your own firm and pay them yourself. Most landlords would probably not object, but you should ask them. A good PCO should find visual evidence of bed bugs before treating -- it's not legal to treat in NYC without evidence of bed bugs.
If you do have bed bugs, attached neighbors' apartments should be inspected.
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10111
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Posted 2 years ago
Tue May 10 2011 16:29:41
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Well as I thought the visual inspection yielded nothing. Our sofa and mattress are completely clear of anything resembling bed bugs or anything resembling bug feces. I wasn't too thrilled about the inspector, but he did overturn the furniture and look for signs of bugs. Regardless the landlord wants to move forward with treatment, which in this case involves chemical spraying. We have a small baby under 12 months, and I am concerned about pesticide exposure. Does it make sense for us to leave for the night and stay somewhere else?
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 11 2011 1:35:33
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10111 - 9 hours ago »
Well as I thought the visual inspection yielded nothing. Our sofa and mattress are completely clear of anything resembling bed bugs or anything resembling bug feces. I wasn't too thrilled about the inspector, but he did overturn the furniture and look for signs of bugs. Regardless the landlord wants to move forward with treatment, which in this case involves chemical spraying. We have a small baby under 12 months, and I am concerned about pesticide exposure. Does it make sense for us to leave for the night and stay somewhere else?Hi 10111,
I am not an expert on pesticides. Some of the pros here may be able to advise you on whether you should sleep somewhere else and if so, for how long.
That said, it would probably help to know what they're using to treat. Maybe you can explain that your pediatrician wants to know. (The information on what was used is given to customers, or at least the landlord, after treatment -- but it is perfectly reasonable for people to want to know in advance if they have health reasons, pregnant women or babies present, etc.)
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jrbtnyc
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Posted 2 years ago
Wed May 11 2011 22:50:06
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The pros on bedbugger.com, of which I'm not one, will corroborate nobugs that you should not proceed with treatment if you don't have confirmation the problem is bed bugs.
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oldtimer
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 0:14:55
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I'm the second inspector who didn't do a full on inspection because the dog was right.
I have seen thousands of people with bed bug bites ... or possible bed bug bites and based on the bite locations and reactions I made a judgment call based on experience.
I'm positive these were bites and I wanted to save this person the money they would have spent for a second inspection. I did a very basic look of the bed and didn't find anything (not at all typical of the type of inspection I do in a sleeping area) jumping out art me. It's a very mild case, just starting I'm sure and my suspicions are it is starting in the sofa. An area I didn't inspect.
I never really suggest moving forward without the proper ID ... but on occasion I see bites and I know for sure there is a bed bug problem. It's a contradiction I know but even tonight as I was finishing up my night in Brooklyn I stopped into a clients apartment for an inspection .... This person stayed in a hotel a week and a half ago and had no problem for 5 nights. No problems in the hotel or at home for five days. I took one look at the bites and I knew it was bed bugs. After a 12 second inspection I pulled a first stage nymph off the bed. My client had been looking for a week and found nothing. I just knew it was bed bugs and I wouldn't have left until I found one. This inspection was free .. but they don't all go that way.
Just wanted to save this person the additional cost and wanted them to use the money for a packtite or toward prep work.
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 0:34:52
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Also wanted to mention, and give a heads up to Nobugs - "it's not legal to treat in NYC without evidence of bed bugs."
Unfortunately this is not correct. It IS legal to perform treatment without solid evidence so long as you apply products according to the label law.
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jrbtnyc
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 15:00:32
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KQ thanks for your detailed commentary which is quite useful.
KillerQueen - 14 hours ago »
...After a 12 second inspection I pulled a first stage nymph off the bed...Out of curiosity: was the first stage nymph fed or unfed – huge difference in visibility of the critter.
Does the presence of a first stage nymph suggest 10111 picked up an egg-laying female in the hotel which promptly began laying eggs in his apartment upon arrival while taking its own first meal about five days after arrival. Thus 10111 first noticed bites around five days after the hotel stay, and within the last couple of days eggs have begun to hatch, thus producing the first stage nymph. Whereas if 10111 had picked up the first stage nymph itself in the hotel which bit him five days later, by now having fed it would be a newly-emerged second stage nymph.
What's your view. Or am I trying to be too much of a detective here.
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 15:25:55
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Jrbtnyc,
I was talking about two different clients. I didn't do a full inspection for the OP but suggested she move forward with treatment based on her bites and the positive alert from the K9.
I didn't want to perform a full inspection and have them pay for two inspections.
The nymph I found had fed once, I figure the night before. I was using this other persons problem as an example. Meaning I just knew the bites I was looking at were bed bug bites and that I would certainly find evidence during my inspection. Based on the bite locations, timeline, and bed type, I knew just where to look to find what I needed and it took all of 12 seconds, maybe 10
Forgive any typos .... On my phone
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jrbtnyc
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 16:18:18
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Ah okay, you're saying the client who had just stayed in a hotel a week and a half ago wasn't 10111 but someone else.
OP means other person, am I correct.
(I'm playing ThumbTalk catchup these days.)
So it's that other person, not 10111, who likely has a new egg-laying female on premises if I'm reading it correctly. That's not necessarily the case for 10111 whose home isn't the home where you found the first stage nymph. If 10111's home only has, say, fourth stage or fifth stage nymphs, those might have come from some outside source as, say, first stage or second stage nymphs, as opposed to arising from eggs laid in 10111's home by a recently-arrived adult inseminated female. So if 10111 can head off the problem before those hypothetical nymphs become adults, there's at least some hope no eggs will have been laid that might hatch later, unlike "OP's" situation. This is all a lot of speculation but it seems to me useful trying to visualize the bb family tree in case it can lead to insights how to beat them.
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10111
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Posted 2 years ago
Thu May 12 2011 18:19:48
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Yes, KillerQueen was the second inspector. I actually wish that I had gone through with the whole inspection though, since my husband is now skeptical that we really have bed bugs. He is going along with treatment, but grudgingly since he "hasn't seen a bug" never mind the bites I've received. It has been a huge PITA, and if we at least had a live bug I wouldn't have to deal with his grumbling.
The timeline for discovery and bites in my case is as follows:
April 24th I had a scattering of bite on my left shoulder and forefinger. About 11 total small bites in the classic bedbug pattern. Nothing again until the following week on May 3rd. This time bites were two large welts one on my right shoulder the other on my forearm. At that point I called for a canine inspection and got one on May 5th. Spent the weekend trying to figure out the best course of treatment and called KillerQueen on Sunday. KillerQueen came to inspect on May 9th, Kingsway came to do their inspection May 10th. Since then I've been trying to prep the place, but it is so time consuming and difficult. I have not had any bites since then, but we did clear out the storage compartment of our sofa and put all the bedding and linen that was kept there in plastic bags.
I think KillerQueen's assessment of the situation is probably correct, especially about the couch being the source of infestation. I remember both nights I was bitten I had woken up from bed in the middle of the night and sat on the couch surfing the web before going back to sleep. I have not done that since and have not yet gotten bitten again.
Kingsway will be coming on the 17th to exterminate. They will spray bifenthrin and deltamethrin. I'm told this is safe for infants under 12 months provided we stay out of the apartment for at least four hours after treatment. Any corroborating information would be appreciated as it will put my mind at ease. KillerQueen mentioned that hiring bedbug prep is expensive, but at this point I am thinking about it as there is SO MUCH to do. It is also hard to get done with a husband who is not being cooperative.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri May 27 2011 20:31:47
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I'm re-posting this as suggested in the original thread:
Eight and nine days after our first bed bug treatment I got a bunch of new bites. Could these be eggs that have hatched? The PCO that did the extermination only sprays chemicals and does not do any other type of treatment. I wanted to go with someone else who uses steam and residuals but the landlord wanted to use his own guys. I did not have a good feeling about this, but here we are.
Here's a short timeline:
April 24, first bites
May 3rd, second round of bites
May 5th, Canine inspection, positive result, but no visual confirmation
May 9th, KillerQueen comes to our apartment, makes a judgement call based on bites and says we have bedbugs.
May 17th, PCO (not KillerQueen, but our Landlord's Guy) sprays pesticides
May 25th, new bites
May 26th, more bitesDoes this sound like a normal pattern for a bed bug infestation? I went from May 3rd - 25th without any bites. There has been no visual confirmation yet of bedbugs and no fecal signs. After spraying I had no bites. But eight and nine days later after treatment, something is biting me again.
The second chemical treatment is scheduled for the 31st of May. This PCO does four treatments in two-week intervals. I'm really worried this isn't getting the job done. I really want to work with someone who will steam treat as well as lay down residuals. The landlord is paying however, for the PCO. Would it make sense to bring someone else in at my own expense?
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your host
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri May 27 2011 23:36:22
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KillerQueen - 2 weeks ago »
Also wanted to mention, and give a heads up to Nobugs - "it's not legal to treat in NYC without evidence of bed bugs."
Unfortunately this is not correct. It IS legal to perform treatment without solid evidence so long as you apply products according to the label law.Thanks, KillerQueen, for correcting me.
However, a very reputable local source told me that this is only true if the labeling of the product states it can be used "preventively" and most products used against bed bugs don't state this.
Your thoughts?
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oldtimer
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat May 28 2011 7:31:05
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Not true from what I understand and was told by the DEC.
I'm told as long as the target pest is on the label and you apply the product accordingly, its legal.I questioned the DEC a few years ago regarding this because of all the false positives I was finding behind K9 inspections.
It's amazing just how many regulations A PCO has to follow to buy, store, transport, apply, and record with chemicals. All in the name of safty and reducing problems but no target pest has to be visually confirmed to provide treatment. It baffles my mind because the DEC wants one thing but allows another.
Forgive any typos ... My fingers are not cutout for phone typing.
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat May 28 2011 8:44:21
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Unfortunately these rules can vary with region and inspector and at any given time both No Bugs and Killer Queen may be correct. The intent is not to have insecticides sprayed about as this is not a best practice and can lead long term to resistance issues. Now that I think about it this demonstrates the conundrum to an extent. Is there a difference between "preventative" where there is no evidence or reason to believe there is a pest or a case where a knowledgeable, trained person (in this case Mr. Milano a.k.a. KQ) has reason to believe based on an assessment that bed bugs are present.
Please note this should not be considered a "use interpretation" as labels differ. -
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat May 28 2011 11:54:57
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Thanks, Winston.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat May 28 2011 23:07:23
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I am going to buy some active and passive monitors. What do people think of the Nightwatch? Is it worth the extra money?
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your host
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Posted 1 year ago
Sat May 28 2011 23:19:29
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People have reported success with the Bed Bug Beacon, running it for several cycles.
I can't comment on the effectiveness of the Nightwatch side by side (sure some others can), but it's a pretty big investment.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Sun May 29 2011 10:46:15
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Nobugsonme - 11 hours ago »
People have reported success with the Bed Bug Beacon, running it for several cycles.
I can't comment on the effectiveness of the Nightwatch side by side (sure some others can), but it's a pretty big investment.Thanks for the feedback. I have a Bed Bug Beacon already on the way, but I am thinking ahead. We will be traveling from June 28-July 5th, and then again from July 6th - 16th, and from July 22nd-August 5th. Our last treatment will likely be scheduled right before we leave, and I want to set up monitors while we are out of the apartment. I figure if anything is there, since the place will be unoccupied, monitors will find them.
I am so disappointed that our Landlord made us go with his PCO, and that I could not hire KillerQueen. I was even willing to pay for the treatment out of pocket, but the Landlord still wanted to use his guys (at his expense.) On the upside my husband is now finally on board with treatment and I'm hopeful that at least if we're really diligent this will go away eventually! At least it's summer and we won't need to have as much clothing around and can pack most of it away in bags while they are treating.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Sun May 29 2011 17:25:27
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Nobugsonme - 18 hours ago »
People have reported success with the Bed Bug Beacon, running it for several cycles.
I can't comment on the effectiveness of the Nightwatch side by side (sure some others can), but it's a pretty big investment.Thanks for the feedback. We will be traveling a lot this summer and our last scheduled day of treatment takes place the day before we leave for the first one. I want to be able to monitor for the presence of bugs while we are away. I already bought the Bed Bug Beacon, to start using while we are at home, in our living room at night. I know it's a lot of money, but I am already going crazy with the thought of these things in my home.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Sun May 29 2011 17:42:47
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Yes, I know it's a big investment, but I am willing to do almost anything to get rid of these pests and get my life back. I already bought the Bed Bug Beacon, but we will be traveling this summer and I want to monitor our apartment while we area away. Our last scheduled treatment (4 chemical sprays) is scheduled the day before we start traveling, so I want to ensure we are monitoring the situation and that they won't just go dormant or turn to another apartment in our building.
I've been reading here a bit about active monitors and their efficacy with low level infestations. Any thoughts?
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your host
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Posted 1 year ago
Sun May 29 2011 18:02:42
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10111 - 18 minutes ago »
Yes, I know it's a big investment, but I am willing to do almost anything to get rid of these pests and get my life back.I should clarify: the Nightwatch may not be worth it compared with what the Bed Bug Beacon can do.
But I would leave commentary on that for people who have used them both (which would probably be only pros). Hopefully some will comment.
We hear the Bed Bug Beacon does catch samples. And we have heard of success even in occupied units.
With any active monitor, I suspect you are going to have better luck if you run it longer (two weeks, say, as opposed to a few days). Running it when you're on vacation would seem to be ideal, at least for as long as it will run without a refill.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Sun May 29 2011 18:21:07
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thanks for the reply. what about using two bed bug beacons? one in the living room and one in the bedroom? right now i only have one, which i plan on running at night in the living room, as we suspect our infestation began in the couch. while we are away i don't know if i should have two instead? our apartment is not huge, may be 800 square feet total.
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Posted 1 year ago
Mon Jun 6 2011 0:08:04
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10111 - 1 week ago »
thanks for the reply. what about using two bed bug beacons? one in the living room and one in the bedroom? right now i only have one, which i plan on running at night in the living room, as we suspect our infestation began in the couch. while we are away i don't know if i should have two instead? our apartment is not huge, may be 800 square feet total.Let me know if you would like to use one or two NightWatch systems. I can loan them to you free of charge. I'm in your area all the time so I can drop them off for you. It's not a complete eradication system but it can help cut down on the numbers in conjunction with treatment.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Mon Jun 6 2011 12:45:08
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Wow KillerQueen, that is so generous of you! I would gladly take you up on your offer. Thank you so much!
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Posted 1 year ago
Mon Jun 6 2011 12:48:54
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Killer Queen, the man the legend the Milano ...................
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jun 9 2011 21:13:57
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Winston O. Buggy - 3 days ago »
Killer Queen, the man the legend the Milano ...................I totally agree! KillerQueen and his assistant (whose name I didn't catch) came by yesterday and lent us two NightWatch units. I didn't install them until this afternoon because our PCO sprayed again this morning. I am totally amazed at how generous and kind he's been, especially since he has no financial stake in helping us. I didn't even get him the $1.00 he said my husband owes him for saving us the expense of an inspection!
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Thu Jun 23 2011 21:07:11
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This is to answer Totally Bugging's question about the BB bites. I've been bite free from anything definitively related to bed bugs since May 26th. I have sensitive skin and always have little itchies, rashes, and other skin irritations, but the bed bugs bites I got were very extreme and swelled into large welts. So, I've decided that if it doesn't swell up, itch like mad for two weeks, and scar horribly it's not a bed bug bite. For my own sanity's sake.
On June 5th, we caught our first and only bed bug. It was in our climb ups that I installed on the bed. People here ID'd the bug and estimated it had fed in the last three days. It did not snack on me, which leaves the baby or my husband who is clearly a non-reactor.
We had the PCO spray on June 9th. Nothing since then. KillerQueen was kind enough to loan us a couple of NightWatch units (and put up with quite a few of my annoying questions, even though we are not even his client! That man is a saint!) No definitive signs of bugs since. My little baby has had some suspicious-looking skin irritations, and I found a cast skin which does not look like a bed bug (very white, a little too long on the body.) I have also caught various non-bed bug insects in the monitors (I had a bed bug beacon running before the NightWatch units.)
Our fourth treatment was today. This tech was pretty good, like the third guy they sent, amiable, and more knowledgeable than the first two. I am still paranoid, but feeling more optimistic with each day. We still have our monitors up though! The real test will be in a short while when we will go out of town and will run the monitors in an empty apartment. Hopefully we'll be clear. My husband is itching to take items out of bags, but I am adamant that they stay that way until at least we are back from traveling. I also bought a Vapamore steamer to treat luggage that I can't Packtite, both for prep for leaving and decontamination upon return.
I still can't believe that this is who I am now! The paranoid lady who freaks out over everything and is crazy OCD.
I'm hoping that the worst is over, and that I can report back with more good news later on.
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Totally Bugging
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jun 24 2011 15:57:18
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Thank you for filling me in. I had my first treatment 2 days ago, and found one trying to get to my bed on the floor, it was very slow and i thought it was dead. but you have been dealing with this just about a monthand are in good shape, it seems, i worry though, you have had 4 treatments, the company i went with, does 2, one after teh first treatment 2weeks later, then they only come back to do a complete treatment if we are seeing them and or getting bites. we all react instantly to the bites, thank fully, so it helpe me with the time lines. (weir to say thankful to suich a thing)
I hope i dont have to have more than the treatments, but from reading everything it doesn't look like 2 treatments do the trick. i have a single family home and I am being very careful and sealing in ziplocks directly out of the dryer. I just have no way of knowing the extent of the infestation, i imagine it is bad though. the house was empty for several months before i bought it. I never thought totask and they never disclosed the info to me until i called and let them know. they offered to pay half. i think it should have been all of their responsibility, but half is better than none. I am sop glad to hear you are having good luck in a short amount of time though, it is really encouraging to me. -
10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jun 24 2011 16:43:47
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It's evil that they didn't disclose the infestation. That is just wrong. I think we were hit by a hitchhiker in my husband's luggage, but we also share a wall with an apartment that has had several tenants, then went unoccupied for some time, and has had recent renovations. I also recently confirmed that our landlord has NOT notified or inspected the adjacent apartments. I am very keen on finding a new place eventually as I can't abide by that kind of risk after what we have gone through (and our infestation by all accounts has been "light.") In all fairness my husband's cousin had bed bugs five years ago. Her infestation was far worse than ours. She found live crawling bugs in her mattress! We had to go more than a month before even finding one bug. And yet, her infestation was taken care of with two chemical treatments. So it's possible for these critters to be wiped out with two sprays. I just hate the paranoia the whole thing seems to trigger!
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jrbtnyc
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jun 24 2011 17:14:19
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10111 - 30 minutes ago »
... So it's possible for these critters to be wiped out with two sprays. ...Yes if you're fortunate to have a susceptible non-resistant population. But reports lately indicate those are becoming fewer and farther between.
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jun 24 2011 17:16:55
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jrbtnyc - 1 minute ago »
10111 - 30 minutes ago »
... So it's possible for these critters to be wiped out with two sprays. ...Yes if you're fortunate to have a susceptible non-resistant population. But reports lately indicate those are becoming fewer and farther between.
Actually, I think it has a lot more to do with the PCO's methods.
How much effort do they take to find and kill all of the bed bugs?
Do they use a combination of methods? -
10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Fri Jun 24 2011 19:57:37
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What is interesting is that the PCO that treated my huband's cousin dusted as well as sprayed. Our first two treatments did not include any dusting of outlets or crevices, not because the PCO didn't think it necessary, but because the landlord refused, saying it was "overkill." Really though, I think he thought it cost extra and didn't want to pay for it. The third visit the tech who came seemed more experienced than the first two. He decided to dust anyway, as it is included in the cost. We made it through two weeks until our fourth spray with no sightings or bites. The fourth tech they sent was also better than the first two. He paid extra attention to the cracks in our floor, soaking them and leaving dust. I think this has made a difference for us though it is too soon to be sure.
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10111
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Posted 1 year ago
Wed Jul 6 2011 9:39:23
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Well we are back after being out of town for a week. I had a Bed Bug Beacon running while we were gone. We didn't run the NightWatch units KQ lent to us for a couple of reasons - anyway, nothing found in the trap and nothing in the climb up interceptors. The only disturbing thing is that I saw what could have been a fecal smear on the wall and my son woke up with a little red raised bump on his forearm. The entire time we were gone he did not get a single bump on his limbs, but for some reason he gets one or two small raised bumps ever 7-10 days. I'm stumped, as I have not been bitten since May 26th, our monitors show nothing, and we have found no definitive signs of bugs. Any other ideas as to what might be causing his bumps? They are raised, but don't seem to itch or bother him.
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