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BB in Korea - novel method to kill BB
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Dec 23 2007 11:37:37
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Hey remember me from the "URGENT" post just below. Well I have learned how to disinfect sensitive stuff and I wanted to share.
Its still not confirmed that I have BB, although my neighbor definitely does and I am freaking out. So I called my dad who happens to by an etymologist by training with a PhD in the behavior of dung beetles (exciting eh?). He told me to do the following to the clothes I cant wash/dry and sensitive electronics, and any other hard to clean things:
Put the object I want to disinfect into one of those clear, airtight plastic packing crates, and put a cupfull of dry ice in there too. As it melts it will flood the box with CO2 and kill any eggs, nymphs, or full sized bed bugs. This happens as the carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air, fills the bottom of the box. Anywhere a bed bug can go, so can a CO2 molecule and that is lethal to these creatures in whatever stage of the life cycle. He suggested putting this box in a sealed bag and leaving it for 3 days.
Any thoughts, friends?
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Hi hegemon,
I hope the PCOs and entomologists and other well-informed folks who read the site can comment on this solution.
I think there is one IPM pest control firm in San Francisco that uses dry ice. There is mention of it in this PDF article from IPM Practitioner, Bio-Integral Resource Center:
http://www.birc.org/MarApril2007.pdf
I'm sorry that, while this has been mentioned here before, we don't know anyone who has used it successfully and safely.
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I'd like to hear more on this too.
Thanks hegemon! -
hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Sun Dec 23 2007 20:35:11
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hopelessnomo: I couldnt find it in the article, what page?
If youre referring to the idea that the dry ice wont effectively freeze the bed bugs, that was no exactly what I mean. This method is about killing the bugs with CO2.
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That's the reputable reference I could find (and yes, the discussion was of using it in thermal containers overnight to treat personal belongings). You could google the name of the pest control firm, go to their site, and possibly email them for more information. (Getting information from reputable and experienced sources is the best possible course.)
If you google "dry ice" "bed bugs" you can find a PDF from a commercial site that indicates the use of dry ice as a fumigant. (It's not particularly helpful.)
If you can't find it I'll pm you the link. We can't link to commercial sites here.
Please note that none of us has used this method or know of the possible risks or recommended precautions.
References to dry ice and bedbugs discuss either freezing, fumigating or using it in traps. But there's no how-to that I could find.
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Actually, the best search terms are "dry ice" fumigation. It's pretty much what you are looking for.
Please do a lot of reading of these materials before you try it, okay? I have no idea what the safety precautions are.
You can damage your skin or even asphyxiate!
[reference/link removed]
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I think hopelessnomo means she does not want to give people they idea they should do this since it might potentially harm or kill them.
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Mon Dec 24 2007 3:41:14
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I asked a professor of parasitology at a good university here in Korea and he said that it works. Biologically speaking, these creatures need oxygen to live. Additionally, high levels of CO2 are toxic. Put these two together and theoretically the bugs should die.
Bad as they are they are not Martian life forms that can breathe in co2 and live to tell the tale. They are merely earth life forms.
I'll ask more people before I attempt it and I'll let you know what they say. I emailed a professor of entomolgy and my buddy doing a PhD in immunology.
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I not sure if you would get a sufficient concentration of CO2 with dry ice in an air tight box.
I've seen one article reporting an attempt to use bottled carbon dioxide in a chamber that killed some, but not all of the bed bugs.I think they purged off the room air in the chamber to get a nearly pure CO2 atmosphere.
The bottled CO2 approach could be very dangerous with a potential for accidental frost bite and possible asphyxiation of the humans that are experimenting with it. When I was training to be a firefighter in the 80's, we were taught that old shipboard CO2 fire suppression systems have killed people.
I think David Cain referred to an accident with CO2 or N2 in the UK in a recent post about the use of a CO2 gun system that is being used as a thermal treatment and questioned the safety of the process. A high concentration of CO2 can render a human unconscious without much warning and be fatal.
I'm very interested to hear what you learn about CO2 fumigation & its effectiveness.
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Hi hegemon (I appreciate the Martian thing, though sometimes I wonder :)
The only thing I want to add to Doug's post is something I didn't pay much attention to the first time.
As far as you know, you don't have bedbugs yet. Is that right? My best understanding is that, as long as there are no pesticides applied in your apartment and you have not thoughtlessly moved or thrown things out, in the early stages of an infestation, the bedbugs, or in your case, any bedbugs, probably would be in/around your bed.
I can imagine that you have done a very careful inspection already. Very careful as in patient and thoughtful and thorough. You can use a very thin plastic card to probe crevices and you can blow compressed air at suspected/concealed harborage sites (as suggested in that IPM article--see, it wasn't worthless).
You can also ask one of the experienced entomologists going over the apartment next door to come to yours and inspect. (They should have done that already with all units adjacent to the infested apartment on all sides, top, bottom and sides.)
And then, especially if you find no signs, why not examine more conventional (safe) ways to treat your stuff, just for peace of mind?
You are more likely to find commercial or lab grade freezers and commodity thermal treatment facilities (there are different heat technologies and they are probably more common).
Yes, the picture when it comes to freezing is a bit confusing. For example, one researcher found that two hours at -17dC killed all life stages (with the caveat to allow "10+ hours per 2.5 Kg dry weight of laundry"). But an entomologist friend of the blog found that 4 hours at -29dF (-34dC) was not enough to kill instars--although they all died in 5 days at that temperature.
But freezing (for a sufficiently long time) and commodity thermal treatments seem to me much safer alternatives to what you are contemplating.
Finally, you should know that people have put delicates and other dry-cleanable-only clothes in dryers without ill effect (it's the washing with water that damages them). I'm not saying it will work for you or for everything but it is something to consider.
Also, you should know that most people believe that your electronics (apart from the alarm clock sitting right next to a bed which actually is likely to be infested) are not likely to be infested. (Not that they can't be, just not likely. So that, if I had bedbugs and were moving, I could not in conscience overlook electronics. But if I were in your position, and thinking only in terms of precautions, I'd consider that in determining how far to go.) You should also read other discussions tagged electronics, especially the laptop one.
Since readers will see this and we definitely do not want anyone trying the dry ice thing at home, please don't forget to let us know how things work out.
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 25 2007 0:07:56
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Thank you for all that useful info hopelessnomo. Yes it appears *I* dont have bed bugs from the professors who surveyed my room and looked into all these cracks like you said. They found a piece of an immature molt downstairs in a room not a adjacent to mine, and the girl there told me shes lie in my neighbor's (the original bed bug girl) bed/blankets and watch DVDs with here. Im really hopeful that its just the very beginning of an infestation and that they havent walked into my computer.
DISCLAIMER - To anyone seeing my CO2 chamber idea, I am going to be doing it in the open air of the roof of my building and I will only be using small quantities of CO2 at a given time. Do not try this at home unless youre very knowledgeable about what youre doing because there is a chance of suffocation. I read somewhere it only takes a tiny % of CO2 in your atmosphere to cause breathing difficulties.
Editor's note: We're not responsible for any negative outcomes which might come from any advice on this website. It's all "At your own risk." That said, doing something like this--off-label and experimental-- is extremely dangerous, and I really do NOT think you should experiment. --Nobugsonme
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 25 2007 0:56:41
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For what its worth my immunology PhD buddy says the CO2 will only kill live insects not eggs, conflicting advice from my dad who has a PhD in dung beetles (but also believes bugs will die easily from moth balls).
Hey thats another question. If I have a suitcase I suspect of infestation will putting moth balls in every pocket and storing it on the roof in the cold make a difference. Wont the newly hatched bugs feel uncomfortable from the poison and flee, or at least flee because theres no food?
Wouldnt this logically follow from the proposition that smoke bombs dont work because they irritate the insect and cause them to flee?
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 25 2007 0:57:41
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btw, MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!! Especially to those like me, who instead of unwrapping presents are wrapping personal belongings into plastic bags.
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Well, there you go, hegemon, not worth the risk probably.
About moth balls and bedbugs, we have no information. (I think Doug told us recently that moth balls were classified as a potential carcinogen here.)
For an item like a suitcase if you can't dry it or freeze, you might vacuum it carefully (with crevice tools) and vigorously brush the seams or possibly use a hair dryer just to see what's what. Or scrub it with hot water and soap.
A dry steamer might be something useful to you and I'm sure you could get one there. If you had a dry steam machine you could steam a lot of things, including your suitcase, and feel pretty confident in your efforts. Steam is a proven method. You should investigate that rather than moth balls.
Yes, I'd think it's reasonable that bedbugs would avoid some pesticides (not just bombs) but speculation is not very useful in your situation. (Btw, every country probably has to look at the efficacy of what they have available. Bedbugs aren't going away. So if you want to really make something out of this scare you should totally encourage your friends and the entomologists you know to do some bedbug research!)
Fleeing our hypothetically infested suitcase in a few short days because there's no food I would not think a reasonable expectation on the other hand. I mean, anything is possible, but they're very patient, sadly. ;(
Remember the safe contact killers should you need them are 91% alcohol and some soaps (like Murphy's Oil Soap here) and enzyme cleaners. Enzyme cleaners might be another thing you can find there.
In your case, you're trying to inspect against doubts that you might have them just as a matter of precaution. Again, you should be encouraged that your home was inspected and nothing was found in or near your bed, the likeliest places.
But I pity the new tenants on that floor. Three vacant apartments, is that right? I hope they treat the infestation aggressively before renting them again.
(And take a moment to enjoy Christmas. Freaking out doesn't help. You need to be calm and methodical. I hope also that you find a comfortable new home.)
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Tue Dec 25 2007 4:58:30
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Thank you very much for the well wishes. I will try to get a steam cleaner.
I want to get out of here before the landlord's bedbug spraying idea happens. I think theres a high chance of disaster, but I wanted to ask you guys something. Assuming it works, how long will it take to know that? If after 3 months, no one reports any itching, bites, sightings, etc, is the coast clear? It'll be hard to be sure because after a few days the 2 bed bug girls + me and another person will be gone, so therell be 4 empty units where they could be waiting... and other people are talking about leaving ASAP
How long after the treatment will it be before we know the coast is clear?
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All I know is what we're told, that bedbugs are easier to treat in occupied premises. A lot of the treatment protocols rely on a person remaining in the home, sleeping in bed every day, to lure the bugs out of hiding to cross poisons and die. Bedbugs can remain hidden for long periods of time and with no human bait, no detecting of a host, they may there remain and nobody yet understands how, when and why they stay or move in search of another host to another adjacent location.
I imagine the knowledgeable people advising the landlord will come up with a multi-method approach that includes not only pesticides but exclusion (caulking, sealing) and continued inspection.
If a person were living in a home and got treatments and subsequently had no bites and no signs for two months, that is generally believed to be a success. But in an empty apartment, who knows, you may not know until the new tenant arrives.
I find it interesting that the tenants are all talking of leaving. Bedbugs are a worldwide problem, even if they were unknown in your particular building. Consider that your neighbor got them from some place and it may not necessarily have been travel elsewhere. So I hope people there get educated about them quickly!
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Wed Dec 26 2007 1:52:40
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Thanks once again hopelessnomo and everyone else for replying to my manic posts. Its really great that there are people out there providing information and even comfort to sufferers (or potential sufferers). Especially after their own problems seem to have been solved. You guys are doing a great public service, someone needs to give you guys an award.
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Hi,
Technically speaking if you removed enough of the O2 from the air and replaced it with CO2 then yes you could kill anything that is classified as a higher organism. The problem is how much is enough and how to tell when you have got to this level. I think that basically it is ruled out as a commercial practice because its difficult to be safe and sure.
The safety is a major issue, those avid readers will have worked out that molecular biology was my first career path and BB specialist is my second incarnation. Odd mix I know but its the attention to detail and scientific inquiring mind that got me here. There was a number of N2 and CO2 related accidents int he UK about 7 years ago in science labs conducting experiments that required super cooled liquids (common in DNA and RNA extraction). The main problem is that they are invisible gases and your brain is designed to slow, dull and quickly fall to sleep int he lack of O2. In short you literally are not aware of the problem until it is way too late to do anything about it.
Thus if you mess with these kinds of products you do so at your own risk and the risks are significant, the outcome may be death.
The only way to handle bed bugs is with great care and attention to detail. I am about to release version 2 of my infamous treatment pack, its gone from 5 to almost 40 pages in 2 years and continues to grow. I will eventually apply for an ISBN number for it and go into full scale print production.
You may have a limited choice of PCO's but you can at least make sure he knows what he is doing and what he wants to use. I would suggest an assessment and consultation int he prescience of an interpreter before you go ahead. I have read through some of the other thread and it may be a communication issue between you and him or the way you post to the boards but there really are no magic bullets with this one. I was taught to fumigate int he UK for heavy infestations but stopped that in all bar completely detached properties as the risk of spreading the infestation is too great. Even in cases where I still use it the house of off limits for 4-6 hours after and if I use it I know I am making at least 2 trips to the house anyway.
Regards,
David Cain
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hegemon1
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Joined: Dec '07
Posts: 18
Posted 2 years ago
Thu Dec 27 2007 0:51:53
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Thank you very much for the suggestions David, its very helpful. Yes, I planned to be ultra cautious in doing this. We had the treatment today and I will post it in the other thread. But I wanted to update people on the CO2 chamber idea. I emailed an eminent expoert i nthe field of bed bugs and thankfully he replied. I will not name him but will post his reply to my idea:
> Most insects can be killed with 100% carbon dioxide atmospheres. The
> problem is usually getting the 100% carbon dioxide. I know Mike Rust at
> Riverside did some work for the Getty Museum for carbon dioxide
> fumigation of museum specimens. They really only had success when they
> combined oxygen scrubbing chemicals with the carbon dioxide treatments.
> I would expect that bed bugs would have the same issues. Your father is
> right that CO2 can be used to kill, but reliable results can usually
> only be obtained when oxygen is almost completely eliminated.So it looks pretty difficult to do this.
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Difficult and dangerous. Any professionals who are doing this don't just have the information down, they have experience.
I suspect people have died trying to kill bed bugs.
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